Phil Gibbs

I'd done this, I'm ashamed to say many times before, but not with the same ending. I guess I've learned to reflect back on that as a moment when it also easily could have could have ended and it would all be entirely mindful.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me, as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

Lots of men feel pressure to be the provider, our ties in our salaries above everything else. Today we're hearing the story of a near death experience that made one man realise that happiness and success have nothing to do with money. almost 10 years ago, Philip put everything on the line. He was working constantly and fallen into debt. The way he saw it, he was the man of the house. It was his role to provide for his wife and family. But he didn't realise how much things were getting on top of him until one dark and drizzly night, when he was driving home from the office.

Phil Gibbs

I've done this hundreds of times before heading home to Oxford. So fairly late in the evening, I knew that I needed a rest. I felt I was tired. I knew I'd had a long day. And I actually took the decision to drive home. That was my mentality at the time. It was like I'm indestructible. I can do it. If I want to drive straight home now I'll do it. So the drive home from Stratford is about 45 minutes and driving down the motorway cruising home at 85 miles an hour cruise control the BMW was super smooth and super comfy. I'd done hundreds of 1000s of miles on that thing. It was like a like my second home you know when I slipped into that it was almost like getting into bed. I think I had a few moments where Oh, wow, did I did I know off then or maybe let's like drop the window down and get some fresh air. I got pretty much to the junction to turn off the home. But then I remember opening my eyes just to see this lorry stopped in front of me and hammering on the brakes and my heart jumping out of my chest. And I stopped within millimetres of the back of the lorry. The slam on the brakes are remember a lot of juddering and a lot of smells, hot oil and rubber. And then I remember everybody else, like other horns from other cars that were around me. And, and then the look on other drivers faces even though it was dark, the look of like, oh my God, you've just never driven into the back of that truck. I really struggled to move to the point where the car behind was sounding his horn at me because I was still sort of sat on the slip road. I just had to pull over. And I couldn't get out of my head. The fact that through overworking and not paying attention to all the signs that we would normally listen to. I'd fallen asleep at the wheel. And if for whatever reason I hadn't have opened my eyes. At that moment, I wouldn't be here.

Alex

So Phil, what happened after you near miss.

Phil Gibbs

So several months later, is an event in London and somebody I'd followed from for a long time it was her event, I'd got a lot of respect for her the lady's name Shar and what she achieved as a woman in a very male dominated space. She talked a lot of sense. It resonated with me. I deliberately bought a programme just because I knew that that was a way to get closer to her. And give me a chance to develop a relationship and see if what I initially you know, come across and followed was was actually true. So after engaging in the programme, and being able to spend a little bit more time with that I eventually kind of convinced her that I'd love her to mentor me and we agreed to work together the next 12 months completely changed my life for I'm working alongside a in the UK meet an overseas in the US, the people she introduced me to the realignment of my values in life, a complete life change from where I've been, and the path I was on before meeting her.

Alex

It really feels like from the incident you had on the motorway, that that was a catalyst for the next stage of your of your life. Would you say that was fair?

Phil Gibbs

On reflection? Yes, I guess I'm a little ashamed that it took something so dramatic to wake me up to that everything that I've achieved, I can link back to immediate aftermath events from that experience.

Alex

Because I really feel like with my own life, I'm able to separate it into different stages. And there are some sort of pivotal moments where you have a breakdown, or you have some difficult situation, I think, for me, just breaking down to a female friend when I was 29, really, then was set the stage really for the next stage of of my life. And I think embracing my vulnerability. And I think with you, it almost felt like you did the same thing. Because you went home and realised after that incident, you were that close to die and, and you're not an impenetrable soldier, you're not this impenetrable warrior.

Phil Gibbs

100%. Like, I mean, I look at everything through a different lens. Now, for many years after that, from lessons I've learned from Shaw, you know, I look back on a lot of things that I do do now. And I'm not scared to, I'm not scared to just follow my gut reaction to things and not worried about what other people might think of whatever I'm doing or saying or showing how I'm showing up. As long as I feel that I'm genuinely being true to myself.

Alex

I'm curious about this sort of feeling of, I can do it all myself, I don't need any help. Where do you think that comes from?

Phil Gibbs

So after the work I've done, I know exactly where that comes from. So that comes from a child of belief now. Now, I was very lucky, I had incredibly loving parents, I had a really a really nice, solid upbringing. But my parents were of the generation where, you know, Dad went out to work, and mom ran the house. And I had unconsciously learned that that should be my role in life. You know, Dad was a big mentor of mine and a massive supporter of mine, as mom what it is to, but I'd learned my values in life, as I think a lot of us do from childhood. And the ability to, you know, the the measure of success being money. And I don't necessarily believe that now. But at the time I did. And therefore then the strive to continue to make more money and constantly provide more for the ones that you love. And all of that I learned through childhood. Unconsciously, I learned some behaviour patterns that did not serve me. Well, in later life.

Alex

I think for me, I've been heavily influenced by my mother in my life, and whether it's her good points, or it's her bad points, sometimes it's hard to identify what these things are in us. At what point did you realise that you you are taken on this unconscious habit?

Phil Gibbs

So that was through my mentoring with Bashar when we started to unpack, you know, what, why do I believe certain things to be true? You know, I just never been questioned on it before. So for me initially, it was felt really alien. Because I was like, Well, nobody's ever asked me that question before I was like, Well, what do you mean is like, is this not just the way it is for everyone, and then just being forced to see things from a different perspective. The other knock on effect, which actually was really has turned out to be really wonderful, was, like a change in our relationship between Polly and I, my wife and I, in that, I asked her opinion, way more than I ever used to. And she loves that because it's not me being that this big sort of big IRM I don't need any help or guidance or support or anything. To the point now where we just have a big laugh about stuff is like, you know, we ever laugh. A little joke is like, you know, I need you I need your opinion. I need your help. And I think I've probably even developed that further. I surrounded my myself with people and friends, and clients. And while I will ask opinion, I'm cool. Now if I don't know something, I don't know it. And even if I think I know it, it doesn't hurt to get the views and the opinions and the thoughts of other people that you respect, to give you different context around the way that your thought pattern may be going.

Alex

I mean, we've known each other for what, three or four years now, and you've mentioned, show us men quite a few times to me in our coaching sessions together, and you've been incredible in helping me with my business and helping me with the podcast as well. I think about business coach, for me, she's called Maria, and she's been coaching me on my business for about four or five years now. And I just feel like she breaks through the bullshit, the male ego that I have, really helps me to unlock things to go to the next level, in my both my personal and professional life. And it seems like she has been that way for you as well.

Phil Gibbs

100%. So I would say that Maria calls you out on stuff, right? Yeah. And that's what Shah, I share that chars style. And I'd never been called out on stuff like that, let alone from a dare I say, you know, but let alone from a female. And then to not be able to like mask the response, it was like, if the response was shit, that was shit, as well, as like, let's cut through this and really get to the really get to the nub of where the issue is. And that was culturally, that was just different for me, because I, you know, I grew up with a family values that were very, that were very different.

Alex

Did you have any sort of resistance to working with a woman initially, because because the fact that you'd grown up around your the way that your dad was with your mom, and it sounds like your mom did the kind of the traditional thing that women would do is cook and clean and look after the kids etc.

Phil Gibbs

Initially, I remember being quite taken aback by the fact that I was sitting in the audience at this event, and there's this, the woman up on stage, and there's me agreeing and thinking, wow, you know, I really respect her. So that was a little a challenge initially, but I forced myself beyond that, I think, because of that moment back on the motorway, where it all could have ended in so badly. And I kind of knew that I had to change something I couldn't keep going on, as I had been going on. And I'd had male mentors before. But none of them have the same impact on me, before working with them, than the like the straight shooting approach. And I think I was looking forward to welcoming that into my life. Because I knew that I couldn't just carry on doing the same old, same old otherwise, as all habits are, you know, we need a like a pattern interrupt, to change the habit effectively. And if I had just gone off and got another mentor who'd also be would probably be older than me probably grew up with the same values, then I just end up doing the same stuff, right?

Alex

It's a fascinating thing, when I look back on my relationships to women in a in a work context, because we were talking before about our parents, and I was saying about how I'm very much influenced by my mother, I would have constant arguments with her growing up, you know, real shouting matches. And I've had so many jobs from the age of 17, up till 21, whilst I was at university, and I think there were about two or three different female bosses. And I would literally have shouting matches with them back and forth, not just in their office, but also in front of other colleagues as well. And I was sacked by these two women, and I don't blame them at all, because I was going at it almost like as if they were my mother. And I feel like that was the first stage of my life in terms of relationship to women in a work context. And then once I started to get to 2324, and I started to mature and grow up, that's I think I've constantly had female bosses and I feel like my relationship with them got a lot better. I stopped the arguments and stop the complaining and, and whatever. And fortunately, I've not been sacked by a woman since or a man for that, for that matter. But it's interesting how it goes through sort of this immaturity stage at the beginning. And then it's now the maturity stage afterwards and respecting women more and, you know, working with Maria, not just Maria but other amazing women that have worked with him in a work context as well. Have you had something similar to that where you've had those that kind of immaturity stage and then maturity stage with women

Phil Gibbs

Well, I think for me, that was, I've always been a little bit more of a, like a, I guess, a milder character. And if I don't want to tolerate something I just take I, you know, historically, I would take myself out of the situation, before coming up with any sort of confrontational element. So from my side, what Sharon was a single mom, I immediately started to reshape my thinking around what it means to be a business woman what it means to be a successful woman, what it means to be a single mom that can still go on and achieve things. And because I'd got a lot of respect for everything that she did, she achieved. I think that rapidly matured my thoughts around the female role model that I've got previous to that Vita that which was my mom, through to Holly, my wife, who was is a working woman, which I love to share as a single working mom. Yeah, there was a big shift from the initial sort of immature what I consider it as now image, your vision of the housewife. No disrespect to my mom, she was an awesome housewife, and he's an awesome mother. But then how how women can play a role, not just doing that role, but also adding a powerful dynamic to the workplace that I think is essential for for every business to have a really balanced human values around respect, equality, opportunities for everyone, no matter of their sex, race, religion, beliefs. I just wouldn't have talked that way at all 10 years ago.

Alex

It's like, why did those things matter about gender, and race and all these things, it's your person, I'm a person and these people as well. But there's still those invisible forces still at play nowadays, even though things are getting better. You know, you look at the gender pay gap, for example.

Phil Gibbs

It's an awful situation. And I think it's largely because a lot of people I feel grew up in a similar world as, as I grew up in, you know, where, where the mother's role was, was a different role. And I think generationally, it's going to be fascinating, I think, for the, you know, the 20, and 25 year olds of today, to move through to, you know, sort of, I'm 48 now to move through and another 25 years time have another generational thing, because then I feel that women are, you know, or people that that look or sound different, or have different beliefs, you know, it shouldn't be about that it should 100% be about what can they contribute to a particular situation? Are they the right person to that for the job, do they add value to the situation, you know, we should almost be able to be are you walking around with blindfolds on and then then take that sensory first impression away, and just listen to the words and the value that's there, and not have that initial judgement of, it's a woman, it's a guy, it's a straight guy, it's a gay guy, it's, it's, you know, it, whatever that whatever that might be, we just need to get a much better balance and listen to people's words and values and beliefs, and missions, much more than we take the initial visual first impression.

Alex

I'd say roughly around about two thirds of my, of my employees at my company or women. And I've always said during the recruitment process, I don't care what you look like, I don't care about gender, whether you're able bodied disabled, doesn't matter which country you're from, can you do the job or not? If you can't do the job, then I'm not going to hire but if you can, then, you know, do it based on meritocracy. And I think that's the way it should be. But there's still that we said before, still are invisible forces at play. And hopefully, we're starting to go in and, you know, in a more positive direction with this, you've you've got employees in Philippines, for example.

Phil Gibbs

Yeah, absolutely. We've got a very, very mixed team, from gender, to location to cultural beliefs to religious beliefs, a very diverse team. But again, I have built that team in the last five years with a completely different set of beliefs than I had, you know, eight, nine years ago. It's the single biggest change in my life but one that I'm I'm incredibly grateful for, even though it was nearly so disastrous, I wouldn't change anything. Because I can link a lot back to the, the immediate kind of like wash out from that event, and how it changed the way I think. And the people I'm prepared to listen to a lot of it, I can link back into the three, six months that followed that that event.

Alex

When I look back on my life, I can't imagine not having the amazing women that had around me in my life. And I don't know what kind of man I would be today. What about yourself? What What kind of man would you be if you didn't have your mother, Polly Shah was meant all of these amazing women.

Phil Gibbs

And a lot of amazing clients as well that I've worked with over the years have been been women, genuinely, I think I would be a lesser person by a considerable margin, I feel much more rounded, much more content and much more happier, deep down in myself, that I genuinely will listen to people for what they're the value they're contributing, and not for any first impression. You know, I've got mates that, you know, gay mates that get that got married in Australia a couple of years ago, 10 years ago, I would that would not have been on my that would not have been on my radar to do that. And Polly my wife reshaped my thinking, as I've been become more receptive to it, reshaped my thinking around all that kind of stuff. That originally as a, you know, as a middle class, you know, white male growing up in the centre of England, in an you know, not massively wealthy, but in an incredibly comfortable, male white environment. I just wasn't challenged that way, in younger years. And I think that was a great shame that it took so much to make me reassess my values and, and a lot of the things in my life,

Alex

the town I'm from other than Greater Manchester, it's predominantly white. You've got Bolton next door, which has a big Pakistani community, but it's very much working class white. And I say to some people all the time, I can't imagine anyone coming out as gay in that particular town, they would have had so much abuse, whether it was physical, whether it was verbal, yeah. And

Phil Gibbs

how old? Are you out?

Alex

35? Yeah, so

Phil Gibbs

there's 13 years between us. And still 13 years later, like half a generation later, you know, you still have the same same sort of experience that I had at school like nobody, nobody at my school would come out as gay, but I'm sure now if I went to a school reunion, there would be you know, gay guys, and gay females. There. But at the time, you know, we when I was growing up and going through school in the late 80s, and early 90s, nobody did that. Nobody even talked about it. I'm so pleased that society has moved on, and is much more receptive to it. Now, I know it's got a long way to go. I want

Alex

to finish just by asking you something that you told me before we started recording, that was your addiction to money. You speak to a lot of men, and they do have this addiction to money. And I suppose, this kind of constant striving for money. And when it comes power, as well, and these are traditional forms of masculinity and what is deemed to be masculine. Where does that addiction come from? And And why was it important to you?

Phil Gibbs

So originally, the the, and again, this was done with the very best intention in life, but I know a totally where it came from, in that growing up, we worked for stuff we were made to work for stuff, you know, even if it was just like, you know, mow the lawn, and you can have a crate and then cycle down to the shop and do whatever or wash the car or money has never been gifted, was always earned. And I totally get why mom and dad did that for us as children because I think we very quickly learned the value of money and not to take anything for granted. And the more we worked, and the harder we worked, the more we got. And therefore you know, the more we got them the more you want. And you live into that lifestyle, don't you? So I know where it came from. And but it was it was done very much with love and care and wanting to set us up the right way in the world. I've never smoked I've never there's lots of addiction As the others have that I've been fortunate to avoid, but the money, the money became an addiction. Because from such a young age, it was always instilled in us that if you wanted money, you needed to work for it. So from a place of love, I took it, nothing about my parents, I took it to a place of extreme, but in such over such a period of time, it's probably such a gradual gradient, that I just continuously lived into it. So for me, it was not a shift. I had the

Alex

same situation from the age of 10. I remember asking my mother for money on the estate that we lived on. And she said, No, if you want money, you're gonna have to work for it. And I was only 10 years old. So I went along to the local paper shop, and asked about being a paper delivery boy. And they said, Well, you need to be 12. I said, Well, I am 12, and didn't ask me for any birth certificate or passport or anything. So I started delivering newspapers, and making about one pound, 51 pound 40 a day. And then just became obsessed with that and waking up at 6am. And I think I've got a lot of credit my work ethic to that particular stage in my life. So it was that obsession with money, that then led me into other other jobs, and then starting my business and having that addiction there. So I think that addiction is, can be an everlasting thing, if you don't break it. I think

Phil Gibbs

from my side, the addiction came probably in my, in my 20s, when you strive to want to do things to be seen at certain events, and you know, to be able to go out and do what you want to do and not be the one that that couldn't afford amongst your mates that couldn't afford to do something, I'd sacrifice everything else, so that I wasn't the one that couldn't afford to do something. And as I went through childhood and growing up, and you know, got other jobs that just became more and more of a just so gradual. But I recognise it now as an addiction. But I mean, 10 years ago, I didn't, I just thought it was what I did. You know, for me, it was always like, we've got to go out, and we've got to go here, we've got to do that. And it all took money. Now I cherish different things, a lot of things now, don't cost a penny, you know, games night in at home, and all that sort of stuff, you can have a lot of laughs and a lot of belly laughs doing stuff like that, that I didn't never have thought about doing. As a, you know, 1015 years ago, some of

Alex

the best things that I do in my life don't involve any money might just be going for a walk or something like that. I think a lot of kids now, kids that come across, especially my little brother when he was when he was young. Everything he wanted to do was expensive. But actually taking a football to the field, playing football with him didn't cost anything. And I think he started to realise that as he got older, and I think a lot of the other kids realise that when they get older as well.

Phil Gibbs

Do you find that there's been a shift in in your values, then over time? And what you say? What gives? What makes you happy?

Alex

Yeah, I think definitely my values have shifted. And I think it's like we said before, it's the different people you have in your life. I tried to align myself to people who are older than me as well, because they've got a lot of wisdom that they've gained over the years. And I'd rather learn from someone else's mistakes. Rather than make those mistakes myself, I think I had this sort of feeling for many years of adults. And Alex as as I called him is even I was I've not lived in additon for many years, I still had this sort of mentality. And you know, there's nothing wrong with with that. But I've changed and grown and evolved a lot. You know, I've lived in lots of different countries. So we're still kind of walking around with that sort of image. And that mentality. So I think that's taken a lot of work on my on myself, whether it's meditation, whether it's speaking to a counsellor, whether it's travelling, all these things, to really shift that and working on my business as well. So I think that's definitely played a massive impact. How about you?

Phil Gibbs

I remember being in Naples in Florida with Shar and I remember, she asked me to define happiness, you know, what makes you happy. And my first stab at it was absolutely awful. You know, all the materially type things, and none of the you know, not, not no emotional elements in there at all. And I remember she just called hold told me that that was just total bullshit, and kept me going, like kept me going to I just got under under the surface. And actually, you know, what, really deep down what makes me happy. A lot of it has no material value at all. The taking the shift away from what society tells you as a man and makes you successful and therefore should make you happy. I think we should constantly all be challenging that. And I'm not saying that that is all wrong. But I think the revelation I had was one Working out my version of what that meant to me, and making sure that I wasn't just carrying a load of unconscious societal beliefs around what happiness should be and therefore where I should be and what I should be doing. And just making sure that it's constantly true to myself, and what I want at my life.

Alex

full story have made me reflect on my own journey. And the way I've been in the car as well. Because in roughly 2007 2008, whilst I was at university, I was just desperately trying to get a two one degree, I had not had a good second year, didn't get a good grade. And so I was pushing as far as I could. I was working throughout the night in the 24/7 computer lab. And in the mornings, I would submit my assignment and I would then drive home with no sleep is crazy to think when I look back on how reckless I'd been in the car, thinking I could drive throughout the night without having any sleep at all, on the motorway on the MCX. It could have ended really badly. I think sometimes as men, we do crazy, reckless things in order to achieve whatever it is we want to achieve. And whilst putting everything else last, how many times in our lives? Do we put pressure on ourselves by chasing money and putting material possessions above everything else? We don't usually hear about women being mentors for men. It's not necessarily talked a lot about in the media either. Is this a taboo for men? And is it humbling for men to be guided by a woman? And if so, why? I also happen to have a female business advisor in my life. Her name is Maria. She's fantastic and helps me in so many ways. And it's not necessarily just about business either. She helps me in all areas of my life. I know that I can always pick up the phone when I need to speak to her. And that's something I really value