As professionals, we can say hard things to patients, clients, and
our customers kindly clearly and professionally when it matters.
And then a colleague does something that's not okay, and suddenly
we turn into a bundle of nerves.
Have you got somebody that you work with who's making things harder,
perhaps their behavior, their work, or even just the way they speak to
people and you know you need to address it, but every time you think about
saying something, your body goes nope?
So you stay polite and you soften what you're gonna say.
You hint and hope, and meanwhile, the resentment builds, the team feels
it, and the problem just gets bigger.
Now this pattern has a name.
This week's guest calls it chronic niceness.
And if you work in healthcare, you'll know exactly what he means.
So on this episode, I'm joined by Joe Weston.
He helps teams confront problems without creating conflict.
We talk about what to do when someone just won't budge, and why speaking your truth
in the conversation matters much more than just listing the cold hard facts.
We talk about how to create accountability that actually works, and how to get
long lasting behavior change without turning into the workforce police.
If you are a leader trying to build trust in your team, or you are gearing
up for a tricky conversation with a colleague or perhaps your boss, this
episode will give you a way through.
If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling
stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options.
I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog.
My name is Joe Weston.
I'm born in New York City.
I've been living in the Netherlands for many years, and I'm an international
trainer, coach, consultant, author, and advocate for lasting peace.
It is wonderful to have you on the podcast.
Joe.
You are here 'cause we are going to talk, amongst other things
about chronic niceness and that is something I think a lot of our
listeners and, and I suffer from.
Although I'm not sure everyone would say I am chronically nice.
But you said to me earlier that chronic niceness you think
is as harmful as aggression.
It can be as harmful as aggression.
And, and the reason why I say that, I mean that, that chronic niceness is
that, and, and for, if we're talking with, with healthcare people and doctors,
the word chronic is specifically used.
There's nothing wrong with being nice once in a while, even though I would say we
don't need to be nice, we need to be kind.
§§§§Uh, but there's nothing wrong with being nice.
But when it becomes chronic, when you're stuck in that pattern, that means you're
also being nice in moments when it's not appropriate, when it's requiring
something more assertive or, or, or fierce, uh, where you have to speak truth.
And for some reason, human beings are terrified of speaking truth, uh, and
that's the basis of my work, Fierce Civility and respectful confrontation
is to help people overcome this barrier to think that if you're gonna speak your
truth, the world's gonna fall apart.
And oftentimes you find it doesn't.
So because we haven't examined that and we haven't considered that there are skills
that we can learn to assert ourselves and speak our truth, particularly difficult
conversations, uh, when necessary, we get stuck in these patterns where we avoid it.
And so I always say that chronic being chronic nice is when you say
yes, when you should say no or you say no when you should say yes.
or you don't see anything when you see an injustice happening.
And the reason why it can be as harmful, it may not be as immediate
'cause of bullying and aggression and violence, you see the immediate
results, the pain and everything.
But with chronic, nice.
It's just more long term.
It's like a, it's like low grade aggression, you could
call it passive aggression.
That today might not seem like a problem.
But as we know, we see the cumulative effect of, of, of long-term patterns,
uh, that down the road, you know, the, what oftentimes I'm working
with people, couples with mediation and it's a divorce situation and the
question is, how did we get here?
Well, it starts with an inability to be able to speak your needs and
speak your truth from the start.
And I would imagine in healthcare that, that, that's crucial at times
to be able that, that there, and I'm sure that many people can do
it in their work situation, right?
When it comes down to it, you must take this medication, this
must be operated on right now.
And that you stand fully in, in your, in your power in that and your
conviction that that's necessary.
It's more the interpersonal things, the relational things, the power
dynamics where it gets tricky.
So by not speaking what needs to be spoken patterns continue, where
people are being harmed and the cumulative effect of that can be just
as harmful as aggression or violence.
It's interesting, isn't it?
I do a session on how to lead without rescuing, and I also think that,
um, this sort of rescuing and saving people can be more toxic form of
leadership than the sort of aggressive bullying form of leadership because,
I think it's because we accept it.
We think it's.
Okay.
If someone's being a bully, bullying, na, nasty aggress leader,
it gets called out, isn't it?
And so everyone's like, I don't wanna be like that.
But everyone else is rescuing everyone else, which is not giving
people their power, everything.
So then it's more toxic.
Is that your thinking about this chronic niceness?
Because we all think it's actually socially acceptable and, and often
we've been sort of groomed for it, therefore it's more prevalent as well.
yeah.
I mean, well, we're breaking through old patterns.
I mean, we're seeing that Rachel, we're seeing what's happening in the world.
We're seeing that old systems are dying away.
I, I always say in every lecture I start, I say, the bad news is that the, the
systems as we know them are breaking down.
The good news is that the systems as we know them, are breaking down,
and we can either get caught up in the despair and the, and the fear
around that, the anxiety, or we can see the hope and possibility.
So we're being forced, some of us, maybe not all of us, to look at patterns
that we just accepted to be true.
And part of that, and I know in different cultures, certainly I would say with all
humility in British culture, that there isn't, there's a so certain social, um,
norm that that has to be adhered to.
And the reason why my, uh, second book is called Fierce Civility is because
the, the, the, the civility as we knew it from the Victorian age or from
or from the 1950s or from even the last 10 or 20 years, is not potent
enough and powerful enough to meet.
The aggression.
We're seeing the level of polarization and hate and, uh, and, and, and
violence that we're seeing that's, that seems to be socially accepted
in politics, in, in the media.
So we need a new kind of civility, one that breaks through the norms of, of
that maybe did work in the fifties and that maybe even worked 20 years ago.
That's the work I'm doing in companies with the Weston Network is creating
cultures of mutual empowerment with this.
And, and it's all focused on the communication that many organizations
I work with, entrepreneurs who are doing innovative, uh, have innovative
products and sustainability and things like that, but what they're, I
think what they're missing and what's slowing them down is they're also not
upgrading their communication models.
And we're still using communication models that worked 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
But because the world has changed and it's become more volatile and violent, those
systems, I believe those communications aren't working as effectively.
Which is, which is burning us out more 'cause we're working harder to keep up.
And that we can find a way to enhance our communication skills that.
You know, civility is essential, because for me, what civility really
comes down to is a certain core values or a certain core principles.
And in my book I talk about five highest human core principles of
respect, dignity, belonging, freedom and collaboration or cooperation.
We are at our best when we are not only finding that within ourselves,
respect and belonging for ourselves, but we act, actually advocate for
creating an environment where others can find their respect and dignity.
And I think going back to this idea of, you know, the bully and the,
Not the protector, but the rescuer.
Right.
Um, you're not really, when you're doing that, it, your intentions may be very
noble, but like you said, you're not empowering that person and you're not
really acknowledging them and seeing them.
There's a power dynamic that I don't think is, is for that person not healthy.
And as you know, I did the TEDx talk, a Cure for Chronic Niceness.
I talk about four tools to break through the patterns of chronic niceness.
The first one is regulating the nervous system, that when you're in a situation
where you're being confronted with, I can either go this path or this path,
and oftentimes the reason why we get stuck is because we naturally, uh,
the way we are, have been trained or the way we've always been, is we think
in polarities, either this or that.
And I think the reason why I call my work Fierce Civility is that many of us are
stuck and we feel powerless because we, we look at the world and we see either
bullies or we see either passive people.
And we think that those are our only two options.
And so what Fierce Civility is breaking that open and saying, we've
got hundreds of options in any given moment, but we need to do the work
of understanding how to find that.
So oftentimes, either someone does it consciously or not, puts us in a situation
where we're forced to either in that moment play the, be the bully, or be the
victim or be the, or be the passive one.
The idea, so regulating your nervous system as the first tool is
important to realize, okay, you're in a flight, fight, freeze response.
What are you gonna do to get back to your, uh, to yourself so that
you can do some critical thinking and make different choices?
And the second is meeting the others where they are.
And I think that's key in any, all of the work in respectful confrontation,
my first body of work and Fierce Civility, which is all about conflict
prevention with and confronting for the purpose of deepening relationship
and empowering everyone involved.
The purpose of that is the meeting others where they are is that by calling
someone into their best selves, even though they're not gonna like what
they're hearing, they're gonna stay in the conversation longer because they feel
acknowledged and seen and valued, and that they can see that you're not there to,
to harm them, to bully them, to, to judge them, or criticize, that you're really
there to seek out win-win solutions.
Wow.
So those are the first two tools.
Before we go onto the other tools, I have a question because earlier you said
that doctors and nurses and healthcare professionals, we are really good at
telling the truth to patients even then when we really don't want to.
And, and that has changed, 'cause you know, in Victorian times you
used to keep the truth from patients 'cause they couldn't handle it.
Now that's totally unethical.
You know, if someone's got cancer and they've only got days to live, we tell
them, even though it's horrible message to get across, we know they're going
to be upset, all they sorts of things.
So, and, and we're good at doing it.
We're good at doing it and we're trained to do it.
So why can we do it with patients but not with colleagues?
I'm gonna take a breath on that one.
Well, you know, because I want to be kind in what I say and I want, and, and
Now just break it to us.
Just be brutal, Joe.
Seriously.
It's because it's safe, because of the power dynamic.
It's the, you know, it's a, it's a setup.
The structure is set up that the doctor has the power.
And the doctor has the knowledge.
And that's not bad.
That's not good or bad, it simply is.
So in a sense, the parts of us that are afraid to speak truth,
we can step into it there.
I mean, I have that as a coach and a facilitator.
I'm bolder in those moments than I am with my friends or or family, because
of the structure that's set up because of the authority I have, right?
So I think that that's why there's a confidence in what I'm saying
is true, and, uh, and, and if nothing else, you need to hear it.
Whether, whatever you do with it is up to you, right?
Says doctor, but you need to hear it.
It's my, it's my obligation.
It's, it's according to the law and my ethics that I say it.
So I think that's it.
There's also the exit ethics behind it, the law behind it,
and I think it's just safer.
I'm in a power, power dynamic where I can be truthful and if the person gets upset
with me, I can navigate my own reactivity in that because I know this isn't my
spouse, this isn't my, my partner, this isn't my child, this isn't my, uh, friend.
Uh, where it gets more messy because that's more of a fluid,
um, relationship where there isn't that clear power dynamic structure.
That makes a lot of sense.
You've got a particular role, it's literally your job to
speak the truth to that person.
And also the relationship with that patient isn't so personally important.
So obviously you wanna have a good relationship with your, with your
patients, but if they don't like you 'cause of something you've
said that was the truth, then that's just sort of tough luck.
The problem is, when you said that about ethics.
My ethics are that if people are behaving in a way that's really destructive
to other people, but also themselves, they really need to hear about that.
I had a, a friend a while ago that people really found difficult, and
it was because of her behavior.
She just wouldn't listen to anybody, constantly her agenda and,
and people were then starting to avoid her and not see her, and she
was being excluded from things.
And that, that was felt to me like it was really unkind.
However, the behavior was getting really intolerable.
No one said anything to her.
And if you've got a colleague who's behaving in ways that is damaging to their
career because of they can't emotionally regulate, or you can see they're heading
to burnout or they're overcommitting stuff or, or whatever, then when we look at
it in the cold light of day, it's, it's unethical not to tell them the hard truth.
But there's something in us that finds that really, really difficult.
So why is that?
Yeah.
It's funny 'cause that's the essence of why I created respectful confrontation
and Fierce Civility was to observe that and to just see the disconnect with people
having high, you know, clear values and, and not, manifesting that, or living that.
And, uh, you know, I I, I tell a story that years ago, uh, many years ago
when, when I first arrived in Holland, we had a group of friends and, uh, we,
uh, we were very close and one of our friends started disappearing and then he
would come back, started asking us for money, he would disappear and come back.
We saw he was not well.
We obviously saw he was drinking a lot and he was not well.
But we were chronically nice.
We kept giving him money.
We didn't say anything.
So this is the disempowering piece, right?
He's disempowering himself by, by his behavior.
We are disempowering him.
By not saying something, we're disempowering ourselves by
not saying something, right?
We're not taking care of ourselves.
And that's the patterns we get in.
And, and, and my, and I'll, I'll finish the story in a moment, but
my feeling is if we can't take care of our own personal situations with
family and friends, what makes us think we're gonna solve World wars, right?
I mean, if we're not taking care of our stuff in this way, and the whole idea
of the, of the work I do is to approach it at an early stage when the tension
and the, and the, the, the, the charge isn't so high and resolve it there.
And of course it's gonna be an uncomfortable conversation and
they're not gonna want to hear it.
But because you do it immediately and just take care of it and hold 'em accountable
and yourself accountable, you clear it.
In the clearing of it.
You also deepen relationship and gain more safety and trust.
That's the power of it.
But it's when we don't say something and then two or three years later we're
like, we now have to say something.
It's almost impossible.
You almost have to go to HR to, to, to call them in and it's on.
And, and it's because you didn't deal with it when it needed to be dealt with.
So back with my friend, you know, I, I had a, and, and, you know, you can
call it ethic, you can call it values.
I, for me, just in myself, I could not, not say something.
So I did, and I did it in a respectful way.
And I said, you know, I mentioned what we're noticing.
I'm not gonna give you money anymore.
And we're seeing that you're, you're, you're harming yourself.
And we're worried.
He got furious.
He got even a little violent and he wouldn't talk to me.
He turned a couple of our friends against me.
It was a mess.
And then I started questioning did I do something wrong?
And I kept coming back to, no, my motivation was to empower.
My motivation was from my ethics and my values, and I could stand
strongly in that, that I may not have gotten the result I wanted.
Luckily, Rachel, about five years later, we ran into each other at a party and
he said to me, Joe, I want to thank you.
I didn't, I'm sorry what I did to you, and I did not want to hear
it then, but it did plant a seed and eventually I did seek help.
Now, I'm glad I got that gratification five years later
to resolve it within myself.
But on some level, I didn't need it because I still could stand in
my conviction, conviction that I, according to my values, I did the
right, the, the thing that was needed.
I don't, I don't like to use words like right and wrong, but the thing that
was needed in that moment to, to take care of, and I, and I talk about this
in Fierce Civility, we become, instead of being, um, aggressors and defenders,
we become protectors and nurturers.
So in a sense, I was protecting and nurturing him, me, our, our group.
And, and, and, and that was why I can stand in my conviction of my motivation.
I'm just noticing that actually it, it's quite a sacrifice, isn't it, for you
to, to say something in that situation.
Because I, I'm observing, I think that like nine times out of 10, if
someone was to give me some negative feedback or some difficult feedback,
they'd probably get quite a defensive response from me, um, initially.
Or they might get a, oh, I'm so awful.
Then they've got a coat with me being really upset or defensive response.
So it's actually a lot easier for people just to, to stay
silent and not say anything.
However long term, I, I would then reflect on it and probably go back to them three
months later and go, thank you so much.
But you've got to tolerate that discomfort.
And as we are talking, I'm just thinking one of the reasons I
think we are chronically nice, particularly in medicine, is that's
part of our identity, is to be really nice, be really self-sacrificial.
Look how much I'm sacrificing myself for the care of the patients.
So I'm not saying, no, I'm not setting boundaries.
And but we don't realize that another type of self-sacrifice is actually
being misunderstood or getting that defensive reaction or somebody not
liking you because of what you said.
And I would say that's probably much more courageous self-sacrifice than the just
always being really nice to other people.
But you do get that defensive reaction all the time from people and that I
find it really, really hard to tolerate.
Well, it's an occupational hazard.
People go into professions like that to take care of people.
'cause they're naturally caregivers.
And you know, that could come from childhood trauma where
that was their way of surviving.
You know?
And if that's the way you survived, thank you.
You know, that's the, that's your, that's your coping mechanism.
Um, and again, it, it's okay if you, but, but if you're always doing that,
if that's always your default, then it becomes chronic and it becomes unhealthy.
You know, And I, and I would say that it's more a question of just
breaking the polarity, right?
Because I would say this is, I've watched enough TV shows about hospitals to know
that, you know, if you're going into, if, if you're a doctor in ER and someone comes
in and the only thing that's gonna save them is literally cracking their chest
open, you're gonna crack their chest open.
That's not being nice.
That's aggressive.
It's an aggressive act that will save someone's life.
So that it's breaking this idea that being, that, that being a caregiver
always has to be done with a soft voice and with a big smiley face
and, and with, and, and gentle.
Sometimes the most effective way to take care of someone is to be fierce,
and no doctor would question that.
I remember, I would say this in my classes sometimes.
I remember watching a movie where, in the movie, and it took place,
the movie took place in the, in the 19th century I think, a father was
with his daughter and they were out in the Amazon Forest or something.
And one morning, uh, they woke up and he, and he slit his daughter's throat.
And I said, the story is, is that he woke up and saw that his daughter was
cut by a, was bitten by a snake, and that the, the venom was closing her
throat and that the only thing that saved her was to cut open her throat.
So that, that's what happens.
Your, your, your initial reaction, your fight, flight, freeze response
is going to be to, to, to either wanna be, fight the situation, run away from
the session or freeze in the situation.
What's in, what I find fascinating, at least that I find fascinating with my
work is that it's based on martial arts.
I bring it, it's all an embodied, uh, somatic practice of, it's not
about, uh, let me learn how to kick and punch so I can get what I want.
But it's more about, particularly Tai chi and aikido of understanding that
when force is coming with you, how can you pivot that force so that it's
not, you're not stuck in the fight or the, or the submission, but that you
stay in the dance of the conversation.
And I make it very clear that any difficult conversation
is going to be uncomfortable.
Which means that it, it, it, it, it just is.
So the sooner you accept that, the better.
And any uncomfortable situation, the human nervous system will either
fight or run away from it or freeze.
So a lot of the work in the somatic aspect is to train yourself to feel
this sense of uncomfortable, but being able to stay in the uncomfortable.
And an important component is helping people through like a laboratory
process in the training over a period of time, be able to delineate
in their systems the difference between unsafe and uncomfortable.
For most of us, and certainly for people who have a history of trauma or are
suffering from chronic stress, and I would say that's pretty much every human
being on the planet right now, that the nervous system can't tell the difference
anymore between unsafe and uncomfortable.
And that the nervous system, yay, yay nervous system.
We have it because it's ma it wants to make sure we're safe.
And it is set up in an autonomic nervous system as you, as you, you
know, as you well know to either run from a situation or fight the
situation or freeze whatever, whatever strategy is necessary in that moment.
So we don't wanna lose that, but in a modern society, right?
So, so that was set up to, to make sure we don't get eaten by hungry tigers.
Well, the nervous system can't tell the difference between a hungry tiger
and your supervisor saying to you, come into my office, we need to have a talk.
So your nervous system is gonna, it's uncomfortable, but if you can't
delineate between uncomfortable and unsafe, your nervous system
is gonna go into hungry tiger.
And therefore you're gonna approach that conversation
from, I'm gonna be annihilated.
So the, I, so the, the idea of the work is, is not necessarily to get rid of
the uncomfortable, but to learn how to be skillful in the uncomfortable.
That's why the martial arts comes in.
That's because it's what, that's what athletes do.
That's what performers do.
They train themselves on a daily basis to know they're gonna walk in where
their nervous system is gonna be in a high level of stress, the hormones are
gonna be off the chart, but they can still have clarity of thought and the
mind-body connection is still there.
Higher brain, lower brain is connected and they can still function well.
So I'm sure doctors can do that.
Particularly ER doctors, right?
Or emergency doctors, they, you thank you for doing that, and you
do it brilliantly, so you have the skills, but just think, imagine if
you can take that into your difficult conversations that you stay regulated.
And that for me, you know, most, uh, difficult conversation models
are based on the words, right?
So a small component of my trainings is what's the proper, name the behavior,
express how it makes you feel, express the need, what are the solutions, right?
And I bring that into, but because of the conversation we're having
now, most of my work is how do I approach the situation that I make the
conversation as easy for the other.
So the third tool, and this brings in the third tool, right?
So the in, in the TEDx talk, A Cure for Chronic Niceness, regulate the nervous
system, meet the others where they are.
That already puts them at more ease, right?
So you are regulated, so they're not there because if you're
gonna walk in dysregulated, they're gonna get dysregulated.
If you walk in regulated, their nervous system is, is gonna be
like, I can trust this, right?
Meet the others.
Where they are is that they feel that they're seen and heard, and
not from a higher place, you're judging them or criticizing them.
And the third is create safety and trust.
This is a way of getting buy-in, of calling people into the conversation
that even though they're not gonna like what they hear, they'll
stay in the conversation longer.
Which brings to the fourth tool, is getting collaborative
buy-in so that they're willing to work with you collaboratively
to come up with a solution.
And if I can go on, I mean in, in the work, I spend a lot of time
helping people rewire in their own, thought process, the difference
between confrontation and comfort.
If you look at the etymology of the words, the word, the etymology
of the word conflict is very much about battle, fight, um, harm.
The etymology, or the basic definition of the word to confront is to cause
to meet, to bring face to face.
So the word itself, when it was invented, when it came to be,
wasn't about violence or harm.
It was simply, and it could be in challenge, right, to confront and
challenge, but we've conflated the two.
So by separating that, I say that, you know, conflict is any
encounter that causes separation and the breakdown of relationship
and the disempowerment of another.
And con confrontation, therefore is the exact opposite.
These are my definitions.
I'm not saying they're the best for the definitions, but this helps me to step
into that situation, for instance, with my friend, with the drinking problem.
A confrontation is any encounter that deepens relationship brings
individuals closer together and empowers everyone involved.
And sometimes being nice and kind is a wonderful way to deepen
relationship, bring people closer together and empower everyone involved.
But that's not enough.
And I would say that to truly deepen relationship, cultivate relationship based
on safety and trust, there has to be time given to the difficult conversations.
They're messy, but in the messiness, if you can both stay in it with
hearts open and respect, you'll come out with more understanding
with, for each other, more respect.
And, uh, that's what deepens the relationship.
I absolutely love that difference between confrontation and conflict.
The conflict separates and confrontation meets and brings together.
And if we could, yeah.
In our heads switch round and say that actually yeah, that, that
I'm, I'm gonna have a confrontation because I really want to meet that
person and deepen the relationship.
Wow, that is really, really empowering.
But before we do that, I just want to go back firstly and ask you, how do
you teach people to know the difference between unsafe and uncomfortable?
'Cause I think that is a key thing that you've hit on.
And you're right.
In medicine, we see a lot of things as unsafe, and even, even the patients
we're trained to think of as unsafe, and we're going to fight, flight
or freeze because, you know, we might get sued if we make a mistake.
So we, we are in that threat zone an awful lot.
How do we know the diff how, how, how would you help someone tell what the
difference is and then act on that
Right.
I can't tell them how the difference is.
I can help them feel it in their bodies.
I can give them awareness.
I, I give awareness and tools and exercises and skills to slow down the
system, the nervous system, to gain more awareness, to understand that
your wisdom resides in your body.
Your, your, your intellect is in your brain, but your wisdom resides
in your body and your heart.
And, and, and, and I think the reptilian brain gets a bad rap, right?
So I'm like, yay, reptilian brain.
The reptilian brain has a lot of wisdom.
It's all, it's there to do is care for you.
That's it.
Its only function is to take care of you and keep you alive.
That's beautiful.
But we've, because we're so wired to not trust our instincts or our
intuition, or our body wisdom or our heart wisdom, and we're in a society that
only trusts, um, grades and statistics and facts, which are not bad, right?
It's not a question of good or bad, but it's out of balance.
If we're only trusting that, then we lose trust in a large portion
of our own, uh, uh, wisdom.
And so, uh, the work is helping people drop in and really start to remember
what it's like to listen and to be aware, not only what's happening around them,
but within, and to know that listening to, if they start feeling sensations in
their body, there's information there.
If an emotion is flowing, there's information there.
It's not a judge, you know, and then to learn how to interpret it, right?
So, so the first thing, many of us don't listen to the wisdom of the body or the
heart because a, a, we're just too busy.
We're running around and we can't even hear it.
There's too much noise.
Let's say we do slow down and we start listening, and we start feeling more
specific sensations and feelings and, and, and that we're the way that the
body and the heart is talking to you.
The second obstacle is we don't know it's vocabulary yet.
So there's a vocabulary.
So that's the second thing.
I mean, maybe we start listening and we start learning.
It's like vocabulary.
The third obstacle is we don't trust that as valid information.
And what's really key, Rachel, is that it's not a, it's not a,
it's not a scientific, uh, uh, statistic, data-driven analysis.
The, the only person on this planet who can determine if you're feeling
safe at any given moment is you.
And if people question that and say, oh, that's just ridiculous, you
know, you know, then you say, well, you know, uh, that's your, that's
your truth that it's ridiculous, but this is what I'm feeling right now.
And so the, so the, the, the way to do it is that to just feel okay that you
start learning, first of all, the first step is to say, okay, I'm beginning
to feel nervous system activation.
The stress worms are getting, hormones are getting activated.
The sympathetic nervous system's getting activated, something's going
on to allow that to be there, but not get you into a, a, a, lose, lose your
critical thinking and not get lost in fight, flight, freeze, still be able
to have, um, critical analysis and in the feelings of that to look around
and say, is my situation safe or not?
I'm feeling uncomfortable.
Now I'm gonna evaluate if my situation is safe or not.
And that I can determine, I can say, yes, this is very uncomfortable and
I do feel safe, so I will continue.
Or this is uncomfortable and I can recognize the, what's making me feel
unsafe, and I can now address that.
Theoretically, it sounds really lovely and it takes practice
Because I'm thinking there's probably a lot of things that make us feel
unsafe that aren't actually unsafe.
It's just that feeling.
And you were saying it's about learning new habitations.
What things do, sort of people in high stress jobs, high achievers, what sort
of things do they have to unlearn in order to have those new habitations?
What's the sort of thinking patterns or the habits that you've noticed in people
that are trying to learn the new ones that they've gotta get rid of first?
I think that it's a, it's, uh, it's to realize that problem
solving isn't necessarily always the appropriate thing to do.
Uh, problem solving is usually dealing with the, the, like, if it is
putting a bandaid on the wound, right?
So if, if, if there's blood gushing from a, from a, from a, from a wound, problem
solving is putting a bandaid on it.
You've stopped the bleeding, but the cause is still there.
So it's understanding that, um, you don't get to, you don't solve the issue
in a, in a pattern, in a dynamic, in a relationship, a work relationship,
personal relationship until you can identify the root cause of the problem.
I work a lot with engineers.
I love working with engineers.
I love working with doctors and scientists.
I've worked with NASA for 12 years and many different, and
many different institutions.
And, and I love working with that brain to basically map the intellectual to the
heart, to the empathy and the compassion.
But what I love in, in, uh, engineering is what's called root, root cause analysis.
That you and, and you do this in medicine, right?
You know, so someone comes in, I've got, uh, pain here, I've got
pain here, and you, you don't just, you can deal with the pain, but
you're looking other deeper causes.
For some reason, we don't do that in our relationships.
And, and any and any respectful confrontation or in Fierce
Civility, you wanna get to the root cause of the problem.
When you can, when you can identify what the root cause of the
problem is, uh, you address that.
And once you've addressed that and it's gone, then the problem
goes away and it won't come back.
So, you know, one of the subtitles for Respectful Confrontation
is Respectful Confrontation: it's never about the dishes.
And that's, that's a perfect example.
You can spend years saying, please do the dishes.
Why aren't you doing the dishes?
And you come with the same strategy every time to get them to do
the dishes and it never works.
But imagine having the skills and the strategies to stop for a moment
and meet them where they are.
And 'cause usually if you can do that where, and, and create safety
and trust and give them space and just speak your truth, right?
And a key component of this is, my truth does not equal the truth.
But oftentimes these are, these conversations, especially in power
dynamics, they go off the rails because we say you are always late and it's
irresponsible and it has to stop.
That's not a way to get someone to change their behavior.
But to be able to approach and say, you know what, I'm noticing that,
that, uh, uh, we meet at, at at 9:00 AM and you're always, and you're usually
coming in at 9:10 9:15 The effect it's having on me and the team is that we're
distracted and we can't get focused.
What we need is more consistency.
Can you mind sharing or just even to say that I'm noticing that you're,
that you're, that you're coming in 9:10 9:15 that's facts, that's not an
interpretation, that's not judgment.
And then ask what's going on.
And by giving that space, if you've created the safety and trust, I've
seen it over and over again, that person might burst into tears and
say, my son is suffering from serious illness at the moment and I'm just
trying to manage to get into school.
I barely get 'em to school and when I do, then I'm running here as quickly as I can.
You didn't have that information before.
So that's where the deepening of relationship comes, is that if
you give them the benefit of the doubt and not just judge them, then
you're gonna get more information and it's with that more information
you can come up with new solutions.
We noticed when we've been teaching our sort of conflict model of preparing for
different difficult conversations that, uh, doctors get stuck at a certain point.
So they sort of can do the, we talk about the higher intention, and I'd
love you to talk a bit more about, you know, the motivation that we
need to go in, in with in a minute.
But once they think they've identified the problem.
It's like their brain shuts down and we go straight into problem solving.
And I notice myself doing this.
I think I've listened really well.
Okay, what's the real problem?
Real problem.
Right.
Okay, here's what you should do.
And then it sort of goes south.
So that sounds a little bit like what you are talking about.
it is what I'm talking about.
And I think that's the thing.
I've worked with so many different kinds of organizations and I see that what
they're good at, what their business is, doctors, conflict resolution people,
uh, engineers, that they also use those same strategies in their communication
skills and management skills.
And they're different.
They're, they're different skills.
So basically what you've just described is what a doctor would do.
Okay, we've identified the problem.
I'm not gonna give you a prescription, I'm gonna give you, now you're,
I'll tell you what you need to do.
And again, it's a quick solution.
Then you can say, we're done, we move on, but it's not empowering that person.
You know, if it's a real, if it's a work relationship or your child or, or, or
someone in your life, what you wanna do is invite them into the creative
process of coming up with a new solution.
If you just tell them what to do, it's just gonna be another thing
that's on their list of, of, okay, I've gotta do it 'cause they told me.
But in that, when I'm, when I'm, when I'm coaching CEOs, managers,
this is part of the process.
You have to, uh, coach them into coming up with their own solution.
Because if they come up with their own solution, it's more
likely they're going to do it and follow through and keep doing it.
They also feel respect, they feel valued, they feel like they belong.
This is becoming more of an issue, is this sense of how are you calling
people into, into, in the work process?
Because a lot of people are leaving The re, re retention is a real issue.
How do you keep people?
Well, you keep them and there's been statistics that have said that
that many people leave, not because they didn't like their job, but
because they didn't feel valued.
They weren't getting any purpose.
So as a leader, as a manager, as if you're working with a team, what can you do?
Your job is to help them feel like they have value.
If they feel that, then they're gonna come to work and wanna give you their best.
What if you've stated the facts in a very, you know, non-judgmental way, but
they don't agree that it's a problem.
Because actually this behavior's serving them well, they're
getting quite a lot out of it.
Oh, this is fun.
Okay.
Um, well that's why that, that's why there's strategy, right?
So that's why I use the martial arts.
So now we're talking like, okay, if we're gonna go into a martial
arts match, you're saying, what am I, defensive strategies, right?
And actually I do a whole demonstration of that.
The, in the respectful confrontation model, there's four parts, and all four
are important to approach a difficult conversation in the most effective way.
The first one is respectful self.
It's cultivating, you know, you, your, your own nervous system
regulation, centering, knowing your own values, how you show up.
The second is respectful engagement, right?
So presence.
Second is respectful engagement.
How do you come into connection?
I believe if you can really get those two down, that you're truly authentically
connected to yourself and the other, they're not gonna be as reactive and
they're not gonna be as defensive.
The third is respectful offense.
How do you approach the conversation?
And the most reason why most people come to my trainings is for respectful defense.
How do you deal with people's reactivity?
And it's all strategy.
So if you approach it, I, uh, you know, if you say you're always
late, then they'll say, no, I'm not.
Well, uh, Jonathan's always late too, right?
There, that that's the fight, flight, freeze.
And you've basically lost the battle at that moment.
But if you say the last two weeks you've come in between 9:10 and 9:20, you're not,
you're not, you're not judging, you're not criticizing, you're actually giving facts.
And if they say, no, it's not true, then you say, well then
let's go look at your time sheet.
So the beauty of, of the tai chi and the aikido is that you actually
take the force that they're coming with, and you find it a respectful,
compassionate way to turn it around back to get you back into connection.
And if they continue to say, well, what's the big deal?
Right.
Uh, you know, you're, you're, you're making a big deal of it,
then you go into the next point.
Well, yeah.
Um, you know, for me it is a big deal.
Uh, I walk, I walk in and I, I, I'm already dealing with a lot of anxious
people in a very high stress situation.
And this is for me, what I would consider an unnecessary extra stress that I
just don't need, that none of us need.
So that, so that, that, that's another way of approaching it.
Then you're appealing to that, then they get to feel what the impact is.
And then you're relying on them being good human beings and going,
oh, I don't want that impact on you.
I want to, I want to change it.
What if they don't?
Uh, well then, then, then you basically say, well, why?
If I, if you're, if you're doing this behavior and we have proof that
you're doing this behavior, and I'm telling you the impact it's having on
me, and that doesn't bother you, why?
Why doesn't that bother you?
And I guess if they said, well, because actually it doesn't matter, as long
as I'm okay, then at least I guess you know what you're dealing with.
You can go, okay then respectfully, we just need to agree to disagree
'cause nothing's gonna, this possibly can't go forward anymore?
Well, yes.
I mean, well, I, I wouldn't say, I don't like using the expression
personally agree to disagree, because particularly in the Fierce Civility,
it's important because what we're seeing playing out politically and everything.
For me, what that's saying is my need to be right is more important
than us coming up with a solution.
And I don't think that, that, that's my truth.
I'm not saying it's the truth, but that's not the way to go, right?
It, because that, that, that's a whole thing of why is your need to be right.
Why are you so stuck and rigid in that there has to be something.
But I think it's more of a question to say that they were able to say out
loud, I have no empathy or care for you.
And then you could that, you know, so you got them to say it.
So you say, now I know what I'm dealing with.
Yes, and don't expect anything from me, and I will seek elsewhere.
But I truly believe Rachel, just like with my friend who came back five years
later, I may not have gotten what I wanted in the conversation today, but
there's no way that that person is not gonna be continuing to think about what
just happened, and that they actually said out loud, I don't care about you.
Now, another thing is, I don't know, is if it's, if it, if it really gets to
that point and it's really destructive, then, then I think at that point
you have permission to go to your supervisor or go to HR. I think, you
know, I say, this is what happened.
I did my best.
This person said to me, they really don't care, etc, etc, what do we do about it?
Yes, 'cause there's, there's no point in flogging a dead horse is there, you
know, if that, that person is, is gonna be completely intransigent, doesn't
want to see things from other people's perspective, is completely self absorbent,
and, and, and they've stated that, then at least you've got the clarity.
I think that clarity is, and, and in a way they're being kind, clear is kind, right?
They're, they're saying their truth, you might not agree.
So how do you then deal with that when you've got someone who's being
intransigent, who's saying, well, I'm, I don't agree, i'm not gonna do that.
I don't actually care about you or the partnership or the, and, and, and you
know, we've had examples from listeners of that where there's been a consultant
in there, bunch of consultants who's just setting very harsh boundaries,
which is affecting everybody else.
Now I'm all, I'm all for boundaries, but these people are really taking the piss.
So what, what do you do when you can't escalate it upwards?
Yeah, that's a good question, so, so I'll, I'll give a, a few ways to approach it.
uh, it's already too late on some level, at that point, you could say.
The idea is to be proactive, right?
So, so when, if I'm working with a team, um, I, I do a whole values
clarification and, um, where everyone gets to state their values, everyone
gets to share it with each other.
They get to honor each other for those values, and then I say, let's write
that on one big, large piece of paper, everyone's top one or three values.
And are we willing to make this list of values our code of ethics,
of how we treat each other?
So the proactive thing is to start with a code of ethics, a code of behavior.
Not a code of ethics of how you treat your patients or how
outward facing, but inward facing.
Many companies forget that, particularly caregivers, we think, and it's shocking
to me and, and the hospitals I've worked in and, and the healthcare providers
that these are the most loving, caring, nurturing, uh, people with patients,
but how they treat themselves and each other, it's quite remarkable.
I'll say that's, I'll leave it at that.
And there's a disconnect.
So the, so, so the whole, the work is a bit, particularly I think, and
that's the shifting of the paradigm.
We're, we're, we're, we're shifting out of a Victorian or old
fashioned paradigm where caregivers must suffer and, and sacrifice.
It's, and I'm not saying the other extreme is that it's all about them,
but that there's, there's a balance.
There's a, there, there, there has to be a self-care aspect.
Yeah, I mean, this is our whole message that we need to protect our time and our
energy, and it's not about suffering.
'cause you can't care, can you, if you have no time and you
have no, and you have no energy.
So oftentimes companies will not go well.
They'll be dysfunctional or they'll fail because they may have done a
beautiful job of clarifying their values outward facing, but not inward facing.
So if there's a clear, so when you hire someone, you just show them that list.
This is how we're gonna, this is how we treat each other.
If this is a problem for you, having empathy and caring about your coworker,
this is not the place for you to work.
That's all.
No judgment.
It's simply practical.
If they choose to come in and they're still doing behavior that's like, I
don't care, then you can say, remember.
We're gonna hold you accountable.
So that's what, that's what you do when you can escalate, is to say, if you
haven't done it yet, what can you do to spend some time in a retreat or a day or
whatever, to just get back to each other?
Get back to yourself.
Slow down, get back to heart connection with one another.
Remember who you are and who they are.
And then ask questions.
How do we want to treat each other?
Because, because it's getting more volatile and challenging,
this is more important now that we can take care of each other,
that we've got each other's back.
Are you in?
And if people say no, then say, well, you know, maybe this is not
the place for you, I don't know.
But that, but that's where I think it comes, so that when you're in
that situation, then you can call back on, well, remember we made
this agreement with each other.
I think that's a really useful principle for teams.
One of the issues that we have is that people are working in these so-called
teams where there might be 50 consultants, which are like, that can't be a team,
that's a work, that's a working group.
So you've got like 50 to a hundred consultants.
You know, some teams of anesthetists are 300, you know, in a department.
So that's your team.
People are hired for service delivery,, not necessary for
their, um, for their values.
And then it becomes a question of, and a lot where you said, you know,
holding each other accountable.
Then my brain's going, well, okay, who do we hold accountable?
'Cause I think a lot of people just abdicate responsibility.
We think, well, yeah, I can see that my colleague who's part of my team,
my working group is behaving in a way that's affecting other people.
But I'm just gonna put my head down.
I'll just be responsible for myself and my own stuff.
So how do we know when we are responsible for other people?
How do we know when we are responsible to other people?
Um, because I was also listening to a podcast recently about effective
communication and one of, one of their key rules was never give unsolicited opinions
or advice, but how do we do that when actually we are wanting to hold each other
accountable and have a good standard in our department and it's very gray area.
Well, I, I think so.
I think it's a gray area.
I think it's, um, you know, uh, giving advice is different from
holding accountable, right?
Again, if there's, if there's already agreements established, then you're
just saying, Hey, I just wanna remind you about our agreements.
That's all.
And it's done.
And it's up to them to, whether they do something with it.
I, I don't, I see it differently.
Unsolicited advice.
Yes.
Because usually the unsolicited advice is coming from a place of I'm above
you, i'm judging you, I'm criticizing you, uh, I'm interpreting your behavior.
I haven't done any investigation.
I don't.
Right.
And that, that's the antithesis of this work, right?
So.
If you feel there is a behavior you have to investigate, give
them the benefit of the doubt and find out, Hey, what's going on?
And it could be like, I'm really struggling.
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having problems at home, or whatever.
And then it might turn into, Hey, how can I help you?
I, I have a little bit of extra time, you know, whatever.
That's collaboration.
So that initial question of how are you doing is already the process
of holding one another accountable.
So what it is, is a commitment from everyone involved to nurture and protect
the integrity of the collaboration.
And that's an, that needs to be in agreement.
That can't just be done with a memo, that can't just be done.
That has to be in a re you know, like I I say retreat, but
just where people are present.
And you can call them into that and you give them space to say yes or no.
And if you get everyone say that this is, this is what we're gonna work on
for 2026, I'm gonna nurture and protect myself, I am gonna nurture and protect
my colleagues, and we are all gonna nurture and protect the integrity of our
collaboration, then you're obliged to say that, to call that person accountable.
And if, and the same thing.
So I appreciated your reaction to the difference between
confrontation and conflict.
I've been doing this long enough now that people in my world, particularly
my colleagues and my trained cer, my certified trainers, if I were
to say to them, if they were to say to me, Joe, I want to confront
you, my reaction is, oh, thank you.
Because we've established that the motivation is to deepen relationship
and to empower everyone involved.
And I think that's the important thing to remember, is that in an environment that
doctors are in, that that the world is in, if I am going to go through this horribly
uncomfortable process to respectfully confront you, what I'm saying to you is
you matter and the relationship matters.
So in a sense, in a different world, maybe in 25 years, when this idea
of confrontation is a healthy thing, you people might say, Hey Rachel,
I need to confront you on this.
And you say, oh, thank you, because you're saying I matter.
' Cause it's much easier not to do it.
It's much easier to gossip, it's much easier to, to start talking about
people and to, to disconnect and
it would be really good to be able to say that upfront because our inner amygdala
chimp response, it, it is so strong that we do get the, these reactions.
How could you say to somebody, in a sort of non patronizing, non cringey way, I
wanna have a confrontation because I want to deepen our relationship, which means,
I'm gonna say some challenging stuff?
Because being able to say, I'm gonna have a confrontation be great, and I'm
gonna talk to talk to my team about this.
So if you say to someone like, can I just, I want to have a confrontation it all.
Automatic means I've got some stuff I need to say, and the purpose
is so that we can work together better and deepen our relationship.
How would you say that with a colleague you don't really know very well?
Right.
So Well then you can't use the word con confrontation 'cause
they, you know, this is, this has, it becomes an agreement, right?
You know, it's the same thing with doctors.
You agree on certain terminology and you, if you agree on it, and
then you use it and you trust that everybody understands it.
I made a really bad mistake when I started working with, uh, combat veterans in the
US and we were, we were designing, we were doing a retreat with the team that
I'd be working with the facilitators.
And one man is, was a Marine who made, did many tours in Afghanistan and in, in Iraq.
And I said in, in one of our planning sessions, I said,
I'd like to confront you.
Well, he went into full marine mode and he literally brought his chair
up, came right up to my face and said, oh yeah, you want to confront me?
I will tell you that's where I had to really regulate my nervous system.
So I've learned my lesson not to do that anymore.
You can only do that when you've all established that
confrontation is yay, right?
Is healthy is a way of deepening relationship.
But what you could say is, listen, do you have some time now, or if not now, can we
find some time, 20 minutes, 30 minutes?
There's something I want to talk to you about.
And for me I can tell you, uh, it's gonna be really uncomfortable.
So, but it's, I think it's important for us to do, right?
So that's where it's not patronizing.
You bring, you bring it back to yourself.
It's gonna be difficult for me.
And one Rachel, one of the fundamental principles of all the work I do is this
idea of, it's in your vulnerability that your true power is revealed.
And a lot of the trainings in this like laboratory thing is to feel
into what does it actually mean?
How is vulnerability different from weakness?
How is it different from submission?
And it's been trending not just with me, but around the world in leadership
development, that, particularly with Gen Zers and millennials, that's what's
being asked of leaders and people in authority, I would say doctors, is
a certain level of vulnerability and transparency because what that, what By
being able to show up in a more vulnerable and transparent way where you're still
authentic to yourself and you're revealing of yourself, their nervous system is
gonna feel that and they're gonna drop in with a deeper level of safety and trust.
It's if, when you're coming with like a art, an artifice or, or kind of a, a,
an an authority thing, you know, some people might really get charged by the
authority thing and then follow you, but it's shifting in 2025, 26, with,
certainly with the younger ge younger generations there, there, it's, they're,
they're for their own psychological safety, they are expecting a certain
level of vulnerability and transparency.
And when you can train yourself to be in that without sacrificing your, giving
something away, you'll find that you can actually have more impact and influence
with less time, effort, and energy.
Can you give an example of what that might look like in a leader?
What vulnerability might look like?
Hey everyone, we have an issue, and, uh, we made some choices about how we
wanna approach it, and I can say from my point, I brought in a couple of ideas
that just didn't work, and, uh, uh, I, I need your help, need your help now for us
together to figure out how to solve this.
That's one that's, you know, right there, you know, and, and maybe
I'm not saying that always is gonna work, but that's one example in a
situation where you can, it's a risk.
But to be able to say, I made a mistake.
You, you can't imagine the return on investment when you can be able to
say, I, I didn't make the right choice, or however, wherever wording you, you
don't, you can't imagine what that's gonna do for someone who's in your team,
how they're gonna show up tomorrow.
Wow.
If he can admit, or she can admit, admit that, that, that, that he didn't make
the right choice or she didn't make the right choice, then I can also do the same.
I can show up more also authentically.
And so what you're saying is if you then go into this conversation with
someone saying, look, I'd love to put some time aside just to have a chat.
I, I, you know, I've got some stuff to share that feels really uncomfortable,
i'm, I've been really worried about raising this, so I would probably
then maybe go over into fawn.
So I'm, I'm, I'm really sorry if it offends you or anything like that,
and I'm really worried about it.
Ugh.
You should just, maybe just one, one line as opposed to 10 different lines about it.
No, no.
Well, the, the, the note, the less words you for, first of all, that's another
re respectful defense aspect of strategy is every word you bring into a difficult
conversation, that person can grab it and run with it to dismantle or to, cha,
to, break down the conversation, right?
So the less words you use, the better.
So, yeah, it just has to be, Hey, listen, I've got, there, there's some, there's an,
there's an issue I wanna discuss with you.
It's gonna be uncomfortable.
I feel a little uncomfortable about doing it, so I wanna make sure that we have
concentrated time, not just when we're walking from one patient to another, but
that we can really sit down and we have a quiet space where we can really talk.
Uh, and it's important for me and I and, and I think in how we're working together.
Are you open to it?
And what do we do though?
Because if that was me, I'd go, oh yeah, that's fine, but I'm gonna
worry about what that issue is now.
Well, can you just gimme a heads up about what it's about?
That's a tricky one because, yeah, 'cause, 'cause, 'cause the, the, the, the danger
of doing that is then you're gonna end up, as you're walking from one patient
to the ne next have the conversation.
So you can say, you can say it's about how we're, how, uh, it's about how,
uh, uh, we are delivering reports.
And uh, you just give them the, give them, give them the um, the topic.
Topic.
But not the criticism or
No.
just the, the topic.
Okay.
It's about how we're giving reports.
Six or seven words, period.
Close the
It's about how we're organizing the rota.
Yeah, okay, okay.
Because I was gonna ask about gray areas, because you know, earlier it's
like, you know, you came in at nine, 10 past nine, between 10, past nine 20.
No, I didn't, let's look at the facts, let's look at the rota.
But a lot of these things are very nuanced, aren't they?
A lot of these things about behaviors that can be interpreted in different ways.
So when you don't have facts that you can go and look at and someone's then
disputing what happened or whatever, what, what do you, what do you do then?
Another strategy that's very powerful in this is to always come from your truth.
And that's also a nervous system thing.
Like I, you know, if, if I'm saying this is what I noticed, and all
I'm doing is sharing you with you.
What I notice and the reason why I'm coming to you is to get, I don't know the
full story until I hear your, uh, truth.
And then that's an important moment to not say anything and listen
and hear what they have to say.
You get so much information in that you can't, you can't imagine how rewarding
that is because that'll let you know what kind of a conversation it's gonna be.
Uh, if it's gonna be a respectful one and a, and a balanced one, or if it's gonna
be a fight flight, freeze one, right?
And also there's information there that you didn't have, which might help you
get a better idea of the full picture.
That in itself, you've already won,
Should you get them to tell you their truth before you tell them
yours, before you give that feedback.
So you state yours first?
so Rachel, I'm glad we made this time, that, and we've got 20 minutes.
I really want to use those 20 minutes well, because for me this is important.
It's how we're doing scheduling and things like that.
So I've introduced the topic.
So what I'm noticing is the following.
Right away.
'cause that's gonna help their nervous system.
Like if I come and say, you are doing this and you're doing this, I'm
purposely coming close to the camera.
Right?
That's meeting them where they are.
The things that I've been noticing is this.
Rachel, do you see that as well?
No, I didn't notice that.
I don't, no, I'm, I think that person's been a bit oversensitive there.
Alright, well, why don't you tell me about your, your, you know, how it was for you,
Yeah.
Well, I said, you know, they were complaining about this
and I was in a real rush.
Yeah.
Okay.
So that's, yeah.
So, so the minute you get the pushback, you get, okay, that's interesting.
Tell me, tell me how it was for, yeah.
Okay.
I like
Yes, Ann, that's the thing.
Because what you're, the, the purpose of this, and this is the strategic aspect
and kind of the martial arts, is that the, the, the, the training in this is
to learn how to keep that person in the dialogue, in the creative process, right?
So that's what I'm doing and it's not, and that's, you're breaking down the barrier
of me and you, of with, the distance between us and you're saying, I'm doing
this because I wanna bring you into a conversation because we have an issue.
It's not a right or wrong thing.
If you're gonna get caught up in that, then that's, then that's
not, it's not a good or bad thing.
It's simply a certain set of behaviors that are happening that's not making it
most effective for us to work together.
And that's what I'm here to do.
I know we can be working more effect.
That's the bottom line.
I know we can be working more effectively together, I believe, and I'm gonna
share with you how I'm seeing it, and now I want to hear how you see it.
And now we're in dialogue, right?
So the yes and is is what I did was I kept you in dialogue.
Even if you're being No, no, no.
You're still in dialogue.
I just want to finish by asking about motivation, because I know it's
really, really important, the reason you are going into that conversation.
And I had a conversation with someone recently, which went really badly.
Um, it was a family member, and I thought my motivation was to repair
the relationship and to make sure we could, you know, move forward.
But when I look back, my motivation was so they understood how I felt.
Is that ever a good motivation to get stuff off your chest and make sure
they know to tell them how I feel?
What I say to people is that when you do a respectful confrontation, one
thing you, the, the win for you is that you do get to speak your truth, not
get something off your chest, right?
That's different.
You get to speak your truth and you're doing it hopefully in a way that's
non-judgmental, not non-critical, not attacking, that they just, that, that
just to be able to say, this is what's happening, this is your behavior, this
is the effect it has on me, and this is where I'm not getting my needs met,
or I'm in pain, or I feel shut down.
And if they say that's just the way the world is.
And you walk away, then yes, you can feel satisfied that you spoke your truth.
But to come in, because basically what you're doing is you wanna harm them.
You've been harmed, and that's that part.
And those hormones are delicious, Rachel, right?
The hormones.
Yeah.
Those are, they're delicious.
They're gonna suffer because you've made me suffer.
And that's a hard one to break.
But that's the, that's a fight flight for you.
That's a fight response.
You made me suffer.
I'm gonna make you suffer.
That does not lead to deepening of relationship and the
empowerment of everyone involved.
It has a different purpose, which is satisfying temporarily.
Some delicious pleasure hormones.
Uh, so, so that, that's the motivation piece, the motivation, you know.
And, and, and I, I'm glad you brought that up because for me, this is, this
is my life mission, is particularly at this time in the world, is, is.
Imagine if each one of us woke up every morning and, and, and with glee
said who am I going to empower today?
Every human being.
And for those of us who are beginners, say one person, for those
of us who are advanced, 10 people.
And, and also at imagine what the world would be like.
That's a motivation.
That's my life motivation is that there's so much suffering.
What can I do to alleviate the suffering of others?
There's so many unhappy people.
What can I do to bring them more hope and possibility?
That's my per, that's, that brings me purpose.
So in terms of motivation, yes.
So if, if I'm working with people or family members that are suffering
or that our relationship is not as joyful and flowing as it can be, I
feel committed to make an attempt to get us back to that flow, to get us
back to that open-heartedness love.
Uh, and so it's relationship maintenance.
So the, the way to approach this is to first look into who you're working
with, with whom do I have flow, that the collaboration is based on
safety and trust, that I only have to say four and a half words, and
they understand exactly what I mean?
That's, that's wonderful.
And all your relationships could be like that in a, of
course, in an ideal situation.
So the relationship maintenance part is to say, okay, so the ones that are flowing,
what can I do to just maintain that?
And to appreciate them and say, thank you so much for how we work together?
I can't, you know, 'cause that's important also, that's also a confrontation.
To deepen relationship and power is to give positive reinforcement.
But then to look at the relationships where that flow isn't happening.
Or it's stagnant or whatever, and to think, what can I do to introduce the
possibility of us breaking through some of these barriers to get back into flow.
So it's all about motivation.
And, and, and as a, as a team leader, how can you get your, your staff
to, to buy into the same motivation?
And that's what I call a culture of mutual empowerment.
And I've worked with companies where they didn't believe me at first, and
I've seen it happen where I say that if you are truly have a culture of mutual
empowerment where everyone wakes up in the morning and says, I'm gonna go
to work and who can I empower today?
Then it's possible that you'll go home at the end of the day with
more energy than you came in with.
How can you build that into the system?
So someone told me once it either Google or one of the big, um, tech companies said
that every, every day somebody had to go to somebody and say, I've got something to
tell you that makes me feel uncomfortable, but I've gotta say it anyway, type thing.
I mean, how can you build in this regular empowering of each other, so it just
feels like something that we do rather than like this really big deal when
we have to like, oh, I've gotta have this 20 minute conversation, I've gotta
build up to it for days, et etc, etc?
Well, I think it starts with teaching the tools.
You know, did it, it, it, teaching the tools and, and having this conversation.
Do you think that this is important, right?
So, you know, and, and I, you know, do you think a culture
of accountability is important?
And you know, I say that, uh, particularly now, like, you know,
having worked with also a lot of organizations that are nonprofits
where inclusivity is important, right?
An inclusive work environment.
What I find missing from a hierarchical system is inclusivity.
And there's a built in accountability, right?
So it's hierarchical.
What I miss oftentimes in an inclusive work environment is accountability.
And, uh, for an inclusive work environment to to, to be healthy, there must be
agreed upon systems about how to hold each other accountable, because you
don't have the hierarchical anymore.
So it's just a question that you start with the, the philosophical.
Do you see this as important?
To a group of people.
It's about just getting, buying, getting them to buy into, uh, to this.
Do you see what, what does accountability look like to you?
When does it go bad?
When is it harmful, and when is it beneficial?
And that's a starting point.
That can take one meeting, that can take several meetings already.
And then you say, if we agree to do this, maybe it's, maybe we should work
together to learn some tools to do this.
Joe, I've just had a complete epiphany.
Because when we are talking to leaders about, you know, empowering your teams,
getting outta the rescue of being more in coach, we talk to people about
encouraging people and empowering people to solve their own problems.
And I think the piece that we've been missing is, and speaking your
truth and confront in, in the best way, in the best way, that, in that
way that you define confrontation.
So we need a, a coaching approach and to encourage people and a good leader.
And a good team need to be regularly confronting each other, right?
And the more, the more you, you practice exercises of being present and connected,
then, then it's just you, you, you, you start, you gain the sensitivity, which
I'm sure doctors have in, in, in dealing with health issues, you, you start
thinking, what's the health of my team?
And that you begin to feel, oh, I'm beginning to feel that there's
some tensions happening here.
And that's when you approach it.
And, uh, and because it's still a low grade aggression, right?
It's like, oh.
And, and oftentimes if you've made the agreements, like we said, you know,
it's just, I'm noticing that you're, whatever it might be, and, uh, and,
and, and if, if it, if there's already an agreement that it's okay to do
it, they'd be like, oh, thank you.
Because a culture of mutual empowerment is, is working with a principal
I call benevolent competition.
The competition's essential.
That, and basically a culture of mutual empowerment is saying I'm gonna
show up fully in my power and give my personal best, because by doing
that, I create an environment where you get to be your personal best.
So confronting actually is a tool to help people be their best selves.
So that if I confront you in the moment because you're doing something
that I, that we agreed you wouldn't do, and I say, oh Rachel, I'm
noticing you're doing that, then in a healthy situation you say, ah, yeah.
Because we can't see our behaviors.
That's why, that's the beauty of relationship.
We become mirrors for each other.
And we know this, don't we?
Like, I know that if I'm doing something that's difficult, hurting people, hurting
myself, I want people to tell me, yet I don't tell other people because, because
of the un uncomfortableness of it.
We need to finish, Joe, but would you have three top tips that you would
recommend that people, do you know what, what, what three things are will be
the most effective for people to start doing or, or even stop doing right now?
Do practices to, uh, begin to deepen your relationship with your own nervous system
and the wisdom of the body and the heart to start listening to that information.
It's valuable information.
Start practicing on a regular basis that when, that any situation you're
in to assess it and not judge it.
If you're driving, for instance, uh, what an assessment is, gray
car passing me on the left.
Uh, my foot's on the gas.
My other foot's on the clutch.
And, and those are, that's an assessment, a judgment is who does
that person think He is cutting me off?
Like the women that honked at me very loudly in the
station car park this morning.
'cause I happened to just like nudge in.
Yeah,
so it's so simple that it's hard to get, but that, because that's an important
aspect is that you begin to, you, you, you take the judgment out of your vocabulary.
And, uh, to give people the benefit of the doubt.
So assume good intent is that how you would describe benefit of the doubt?
It's another way of saying it.
I don't use words like good or bad, or right or wrong, and, and, and there
are many people where I, why would I assume that they have good intent?
I've already seen that they, right.
So, but to give, to give them the benefit of the doubt, it's on me, right?
It's on me.
And if you notice, a lot of this is like, it's all on me.
It's not giving my power away.
it's not, it's not focusing on the other.
It starts here.
Yeah.
Because lots of people just come back with, well, what if they don't listen?
What if they don't?
But what you're saying is it's all about you.
It's all about what, what you do.
And at the end of the day, if someone isn't listening, denying everything,
whatever, then at least you've got a bit more clarity about their thought processes
if you've genuinely asked, right?
There's always a fun moment in the trainings that I'd I fondly call.
Yeah, but what if.
And that, and that's what you're, I think that's what you're saying you
wanna get to is that, that that the, the, the critical mind and the, and the
healthy critical mind begins to say, yeah, but my mother-in-law, this would
never work with her or my boss, or my 14-year-old child, this would never work.
And that's fun, because that's your nervous system going into a fight,
flight, freeze response, right?
It's a, it's a, and the answer to that is simply, it's not that it won't work.
Sometimes it won't work.
It's just that it'll be harder work.
It's just more of a challenge.
And that's why the martial arts, if you a martial artist at a certain point, wants
the more difficult challenge because it calls them into a higher level of skill.
So it's, yeah, I get to, I get to do black belt with my mother-in-law.
Exactly.
is such a mindset shift of like, wanting to have confrontations because
you know, they're gonna deepen the relationships and practicing this skills.
So maybe all of us, if we just try and have one confrontation this week.
And, and, and then test.
Presumably, the more you do it, the more it feels like a muscle
that you are learning to use.
It feels more natural.
We just do it more and more, right?
Yeah.
And I did this to say, if you're gonna do that this week, don't
go with the black belt person.
Start
Start to do an easy one.
Do one, like, like, like, like, like pole vaulting.
Right.
You know, only jump about, you know, just one meter or something.
Then
That is very good advice.
Very good advice.
Joe, it's been wonderful to chat with you.
If people wanna find more about you, how, how can they get a hold of you?
My website is um, joeweston.com.
Uh, my TEDx talk is A Cure for Chronic Niceness.
My books are Mastering Respectful Confrontation and Fierce
Civility, and you can get them on Amazon and, and on my website.
And I'm on social media, I'm on LinkedIn and uh, and Facebook.
That's great.
And it's Joe Weston, spelled JOE, and then W-E-S-T-O-N.
Joe, thank you so much for being with us today, and hopefully
we'll speak again soon.
is so much fun.
Let's keep doing it.
Thanks for listening.
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