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As professionals, we can say hard
things to patients, clients, and

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our customers kindly clearly and
professionally when it matters.

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And then a colleague does something
that's not okay, and suddenly

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we turn into a bundle of nerves.

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Have you got somebody that you work
with who's making things harder,

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perhaps their behavior, their work,
or even just the way they speak to

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people and you know you need to address
it, but every time you think about

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saying something, your body goes nope?

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So you stay polite and you
soften what you're gonna say.

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You hint and hope, and meanwhile,
the resentment builds, the team feels

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it, and the problem just gets bigger.

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Now this pattern has a name.

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This week's guest calls
it chronic niceness.

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And if you work in healthcare,
you'll know exactly what he means.

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So on this episode, I'm
joined by Joe Weston.

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He helps teams confront problems
without creating conflict.

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We talk about what to do when someone just
won't budge, and why speaking your truth

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in the conversation matters much more
than just listing the cold hard facts.

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We talk about how to create accountability
that actually works, and how to get

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long lasting behavior change without
turning into the workforce police.

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If you are a leader trying to build
trust in your team, or you are gearing

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up for a tricky conversation with a
colleague or perhaps your boss, this

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episode will give you a way through.

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If you're in a high stress, high stakes,
still blank medicine, and you're feeling

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stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or
getting out are not your only options.

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I'm Dr. Rachel Morris, and
welcome to You Are Not a Frog.

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My name is Joe Weston.

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I'm born in New York City.

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I've been living in the Netherlands for
many years, and I'm an international

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trainer, coach, consultant, author,
and advocate for lasting peace.

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It is wonderful to have
you on the podcast.

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Joe.

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You are here 'cause we are going
to talk, amongst other things

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about chronic niceness and that
is something I think a lot of our

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listeners and, and I suffer from.

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Although I'm not sure everyone
would say I am chronically nice.

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But you said to me earlier
that chronic niceness you think

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is as harmful as aggression.

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It can be as harmful as aggression.

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And, and the reason why I say that,
I mean that, that chronic niceness is

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that, and, and for, if we're talking
with, with healthcare people and doctors,

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the word chronic is specifically used.

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There's nothing wrong with being nice once
in a while, even though I would say we

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don't need to be nice, we need to be kind.

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§§§§Uh, but there's nothing
wrong with being nice.

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But when it becomes chronic, when you're
stuck in that pattern, that means you're

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also being nice in moments when it's
not appropriate, when it's requiring

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something more assertive or, or, or
fierce, uh, where you have to speak truth.

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And for some reason, human beings are
terrified of speaking truth, uh, and

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that's the basis of my work, Fierce
Civility and respectful confrontation

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is to help people overcome this barrier
to think that if you're gonna speak your

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truth, the world's gonna fall apart.

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And oftentimes you find it doesn't.

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So because we haven't examined that and we
haven't considered that there are skills

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that we can learn to assert ourselves and
speak our truth, particularly difficult

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conversations, uh, when necessary, we get
stuck in these patterns where we avoid it.

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And so I always say that chronic
being chronic nice is when you say

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yes, when you should say no or you
say no when you should say yes.

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or you don't see anything when
you see an injustice happening.

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And the reason why it can be as
harmful, it may not be as immediate

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'cause of bullying and aggression
and violence, you see the immediate

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results, the pain and everything.

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But with chronic, nice.

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It's just more long term.

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It's like a, it's like low
grade aggression, you could

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call it passive aggression.

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That today might not seem like a problem.

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But as we know, we see the cumulative
effect of, of, of long-term patterns,

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uh, that down the road, you know,
the, what oftentimes I'm working

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with people, couples with mediation
and it's a divorce situation and the

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question is, how did we get here?

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Well, it starts with an inability
to be able to speak your needs and

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speak your truth from the start.

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And I would imagine in healthcare
that, that, that's crucial at times

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to be able that, that there, and
I'm sure that many people can do

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it in their work situation, right?

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When it comes down to it, you
must take this medication, this

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must be operated on right now.

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And that you stand fully in, in
your, in your power in that and your

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conviction that that's necessary.

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It's more the interpersonal things,
the relational things, the power

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dynamics where it gets tricky.

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So by not speaking what needs to
be spoken patterns continue, where

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people are being harmed and the
cumulative effect of that can be just

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as harmful as aggression or violence.

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It's interesting, isn't it?

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I do a session on how to lead without
rescuing, and I also think that,

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um, this sort of rescuing and saving
people can be more toxic form of

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leadership than the sort of aggressive
bullying form of leadership because,

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I think it's because we accept it.

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We think it's.

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Okay.

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If someone's being a bully,
bullying, na, nasty aggress leader,

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it gets called out, isn't it?

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And so everyone's like, I
don't wanna be like that.

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But everyone else is rescuing
everyone else, which is not giving

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people their power, everything.

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So then it's more toxic.

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Is that your thinking about
this chronic niceness?

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Because we all think it's actually
socially acceptable and, and often

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we've been sort of groomed for it,
therefore it's more prevalent as well.

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yeah.

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I mean, well, we're breaking
through old patterns.

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I mean, we're seeing that Rachel, we're
seeing what's happening in the world.

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We're seeing that old
systems are dying away.

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I, I always say in every lecture I start,
I say, the bad news is that the, the

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systems as we know them are breaking down.

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The good news is that the systems
as we know them, are breaking down,

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and we can either get caught up in
the despair and the, and the fear

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around that, the anxiety, or we
can see the hope and possibility.

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So we're being forced, some of us,
maybe not all of us, to look at patterns

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that we just accepted to be true.

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And part of that, and I know in different
cultures, certainly I would say with all

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humility in British culture, that there
isn't, there's a so certain social, um,

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norm that that has to be adhered to.

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And the reason why my, uh, second book
is called Fierce Civility is because

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the, the, the, the civility as we
knew it from the Victorian age or from

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or from the 1950s or from even the
last 10 or 20 years, is not potent

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enough and powerful enough to meet.

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The aggression.

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We're seeing the level of polarization
and hate and, uh, and, and, and

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violence that we're seeing that's,
that seems to be socially accepted

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in politics, in, in the media.

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So we need a new kind of civility, one
that breaks through the norms of, of

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that maybe did work in the fifties and
that maybe even worked 20 years ago.

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That's the work I'm doing in companies
with the Weston Network is creating

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cultures of mutual empowerment with this.

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And, and it's all focused on the
communication that many organizations

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I work with, entrepreneurs who are
doing innovative, uh, have innovative

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products and sustainability and
things like that, but what they're, I

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think what they're missing and what's
slowing them down is they're also not

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upgrading their communication models.

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And we're still using communication models
that worked 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

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But because the world has changed and it's
become more volatile and violent, those

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systems, I believe those communications
aren't working as effectively.

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Which is, which is burning us out more
'cause we're working harder to keep up.

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And that we can find a way to enhance
our communication skills that.

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You know, civility is essential,
because for me, what civility really

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comes down to is a certain core
values or a certain core principles.

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And in my book I talk about five
highest human core principles of

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respect, dignity, belonging, freedom
and collaboration or cooperation.

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We are at our best when we are not
only finding that within ourselves,

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respect and belonging for ourselves,
but we act, actually advocate for

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creating an environment where others
can find their respect and dignity.

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And I think going back to this idea
of, you know, the bully and the,

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Not the protector, but the rescuer.

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Right.

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Um, you're not really, when you're doing
that, it, your intentions may be very

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noble, but like you said, you're not
empowering that person and you're not

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really acknowledging them and seeing them.

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There's a power dynamic that I don't
think is, is for that person not healthy.

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And as you know, I did the TEDx
talk, a Cure for Chronic Niceness.

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I talk about four tools to break through
the patterns of chronic niceness.

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The first one is regulating the nervous
system, that when you're in a situation

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where you're being confronted with, I
can either go this path or this path,

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and oftentimes the reason why we get
stuck is because we naturally, uh,

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the way we are, have been trained or
the way we've always been, is we think

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in polarities, either this or that.

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And I think the reason why I call my work
Fierce Civility is that many of us are

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stuck and we feel powerless because we,
we look at the world and we see either

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bullies or we see either passive people.

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And we think that those
are our only two options.

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And so what Fierce Civility is
breaking that open and saying, we've

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got hundreds of options in any given
moment, but we need to do the work

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of understanding how to find that.

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So oftentimes, either someone does it
consciously or not, puts us in a situation

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where we're forced to either in that
moment play the, be the bully, or be the

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victim or be the, or be the passive one.

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The idea, so regulating your
nervous system as the first tool is

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important to realize, okay, you're
in a flight, fight, freeze response.

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What are you gonna do to get back
to your, uh, to yourself so that

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you can do some critical thinking
and make different choices?

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And the second is meeting
the others where they are.

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And I think that's key in any, all of
the work in respectful confrontation,

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my first body of work and Fierce
Civility, which is all about conflict

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prevention with and confronting for
the purpose of deepening relationship

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and empowering everyone involved.

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The purpose of that is the meeting
others where they are is that by calling

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someone into their best selves, even
though they're not gonna like what

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they're hearing, they're gonna stay in
the conversation longer because they feel

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acknowledged and seen and valued, and that
they can see that you're not there to,

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to harm them, to bully them, to, to judge
them, or criticize, that you're really

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there to seek out win-win solutions.

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Wow.

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So those are the first two tools.

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Before we go onto the other tools, I
have a question because earlier you said

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that doctors and nurses and healthcare
professionals, we are really good at

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telling the truth to patients even
then when we really don't want to.

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And, and that has changed, 'cause
you know, in Victorian times you

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used to keep the truth from patients
'cause they couldn't handle it.

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Now that's totally unethical.

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You know, if someone's got cancer and
they've only got days to live, we tell

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them, even though it's horrible message
to get across, we know they're going

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to be upset, all they sorts of things.

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So, and, and we're good at doing it.

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We're good at doing it and
we're trained to do it.

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So why can we do it with
patients but not with colleagues?

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I'm gonna take a breath on that one.

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Well, you know, because I want to be
kind in what I say and I want, and, and

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Now just break it to us.

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Just be brutal, Joe.

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Seriously.

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It's because it's safe,
because of the power dynamic.

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It's the, you know, it's a, it's a setup.

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The structure is set up that
the doctor has the power.

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And the doctor has the knowledge.

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And that's not bad.

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That's not good or bad, it simply is.

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So in a sense, the parts of us
that are afraid to speak truth,

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we can step into it there.

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I mean, I have that as a
coach and a facilitator.

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I'm bolder in those moments than I am
with my friends or or family, because

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of the structure that's set up because
of the authority I have, right?

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So I think that that's why there's
a confidence in what I'm saying

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is true, and, uh, and, and if
nothing else, you need to hear it.

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Whether, whatever you do
with it is up to you, right?

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Says doctor, but you need to hear it.

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It's my, it's my obligation.

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It's, it's according to the law
and my ethics that I say it.

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So I think that's it.

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There's also the exit ethics
behind it, the law behind it,

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00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:34,790
and I think it's just safer.

223
00:12:34,910 --> 00:12:38,720
I'm in a power, power dynamic where I can
be truthful and if the person gets upset

224
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:44,300
with me, I can navigate my own reactivity
in that because I know this isn't my

225
00:12:45,005 --> 00:12:49,175
spouse, this isn't my, my partner, this
isn't my child, this isn't my, uh, friend.

226
00:12:49,985 --> 00:12:53,375
Uh, where it gets more messy
because that's more of a fluid,

227
00:12:53,735 --> 00:12:57,875
um, relationship where there isn't
that clear power dynamic structure.

228
00:12:58,084 --> 00:12:59,074
That makes a lot of sense.

229
00:12:59,074 --> 00:13:01,474
You've got a particular role,
it's literally your job to

230
00:13:01,474 --> 00:13:03,304
speak the truth to that person.

231
00:13:03,604 --> 00:13:08,824
And also the relationship with that
patient isn't so personally important.

232
00:13:08,824 --> 00:13:11,374
So obviously you wanna have a good
relationship with your, with your

233
00:13:11,374 --> 00:13:14,374
patients, but if they don't like
you 'cause of something you've

234
00:13:14,374 --> 00:13:18,424
said that was the truth, then
that's just sort of tough luck.

235
00:13:19,474 --> 00:13:21,874
The problem is, when you
said that about ethics.

236
00:13:22,654 --> 00:13:27,994
My ethics are that if people are behaving
in a way that's really destructive

237
00:13:27,994 --> 00:13:33,498
to other people, but also themselves,
they really need to hear about that.

238
00:13:33,498 --> 00:13:37,618
I had a, a friend a while ago that
people really found difficult, and

239
00:13:37,618 --> 00:13:38,728
it was because of her behavior.

240
00:13:38,728 --> 00:13:42,328
She just wouldn't listen to
anybody, constantly her agenda and,

241
00:13:42,328 --> 00:13:45,988
and people were then starting to
avoid her and not see her, and she

242
00:13:45,988 --> 00:13:47,338
was being excluded from things.

243
00:13:47,788 --> 00:13:50,878
And that, that was felt to
me like it was really unkind.

244
00:13:50,878 --> 00:13:53,938
However, the behavior was
getting really intolerable.

245
00:13:54,658 --> 00:13:56,278
No one said anything to her.

246
00:13:56,715 --> 00:14:00,495
And if you've got a colleague who's
behaving in ways that is damaging to their

247
00:14:00,495 --> 00:14:05,415
career because of they can't emotionally
regulate, or you can see they're heading

248
00:14:05,415 --> 00:14:09,831
to burnout or they're overcommitting stuff
or, or whatever, then when we look at

249
00:14:09,831 --> 00:14:14,621
it in the cold light of day, it's, it's
unethical not to tell them the hard truth.

250
00:14:15,411 --> 00:14:18,801
But there's something in us that
finds that really, really difficult.

251
00:14:18,801 --> 00:14:19,941
So why is that?

252
00:14:20,224 --> 00:14:20,360
Yeah.

253
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,050
It's funny 'cause that's the essence of
why I created respectful confrontation

254
00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:28,298
and Fierce Civility was to observe that
and to just see the disconnect with people

255
00:14:28,298 --> 00:14:32,978
having high, you know, clear values and,
and not, manifesting that, or living that.

256
00:14:33,728 --> 00:14:38,973
And, uh, you know, I I, I tell a story
that years ago, uh, many years ago

257
00:14:38,978 --> 00:14:43,323
when, when I first arrived in Holland,
we had a group of friends and, uh, we,

258
00:14:43,383 --> 00:14:47,403
uh, we were very close and one of our
friends started disappearing and then he

259
00:14:47,403 --> 00:14:51,753
would come back, started asking us for
money, he would disappear and come back.

260
00:14:52,053 --> 00:14:53,223
We saw he was not well.

261
00:14:53,223 --> 00:14:57,213
We obviously saw he was drinking
a lot and he was not well.

262
00:14:57,853 --> 00:14:58,933
But we were chronically nice.

263
00:14:58,933 --> 00:15:00,013
We kept giving him money.

264
00:15:00,043 --> 00:15:00,748
We didn't say anything.

265
00:15:01,298 --> 00:15:03,518
So this is the disempowering piece, right?

266
00:15:03,668 --> 00:15:07,088
He's disempowering himself
by, by his behavior.

267
00:15:07,478 --> 00:15:09,038
We are disempowering him.

268
00:15:09,038 --> 00:15:12,668
By not saying something, we're
disempowering ourselves by

269
00:15:12,668 --> 00:15:14,138
not saying something, right?

270
00:15:14,138 --> 00:15:15,668
We're not taking care of ourselves.

271
00:15:16,118 --> 00:15:17,558
And that's the patterns we get in.

272
00:15:18,188 --> 00:15:20,798
And, and, and my, and I'll, I'll
finish the story in a moment, but

273
00:15:20,798 --> 00:15:24,848
my feeling is if we can't take care
of our own personal situations with

274
00:15:24,848 --> 00:15:28,565
family and friends, what makes us think
we're gonna solve World wars, right?

275
00:15:28,565 --> 00:15:34,375
I mean, if we're not taking care of our
stuff in this way, and the whole idea

276
00:15:34,375 --> 00:15:40,915
of the, of the work I do is to approach
it at an early stage when the tension

277
00:15:40,915 --> 00:15:46,075
and the, and the, the, the, the charge
isn't so high and resolve it there.

278
00:15:46,075 --> 00:15:49,015
And of course it's gonna be an
uncomfortable conversation and

279
00:15:49,015 --> 00:15:50,215
they're not gonna want to hear it.

280
00:15:50,215 --> 00:15:54,445
But because you do it immediately and just
take care of it and hold 'em accountable

281
00:15:54,445 --> 00:15:56,575
and yourself accountable, you clear it.

282
00:15:56,665 --> 00:15:57,655
In the clearing of it.

283
00:15:57,655 --> 00:16:01,555
You also deepen relationship
and gain more safety and trust.

284
00:16:01,555 --> 00:16:02,755
That's the power of it.

285
00:16:03,205 --> 00:16:06,565
But it's when we don't say something
and then two or three years later we're

286
00:16:06,565 --> 00:16:08,575
like, we now have to say something.

287
00:16:09,055 --> 00:16:10,375
It's almost impossible.

288
00:16:10,375 --> 00:16:15,040
You almost have to go to HR to,
to, to call them in and it's on.

289
00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:18,130
And, and it's because you didn't deal
with it when it needed to be dealt with.

290
00:16:18,940 --> 00:16:24,130
So back with my friend, you know, I,
I had a, and, and, you know, you can

291
00:16:24,130 --> 00:16:26,080
call it ethic, you can call it values.

292
00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:29,320
I, for me, just in myself, I
could not, not say something.

293
00:16:30,103 --> 00:16:32,173
So I did, and I did it
in a respectful way.

294
00:16:32,173 --> 00:16:34,393
And I said, you know, I
mentioned what we're noticing.

295
00:16:34,423 --> 00:16:36,103
I'm not gonna give you money anymore.

296
00:16:36,103 --> 00:16:38,653
And we're seeing that you're,
you're, you're harming yourself.

297
00:16:38,653 --> 00:16:39,343
And we're worried.

298
00:16:39,883 --> 00:16:41,623
He got furious.

299
00:16:41,653 --> 00:16:46,003
He got even a little violent
and he wouldn't talk to me.

300
00:16:46,003 --> 00:16:48,763
He turned a couple of
our friends against me.

301
00:16:49,423 --> 00:16:50,323
It was a mess.

302
00:16:51,103 --> 00:16:54,013
And then I started questioning
did I do something wrong?

303
00:16:54,643 --> 00:16:58,693
And I kept coming back to, no,
my motivation was to empower.

304
00:16:59,103 --> 00:17:04,083
My motivation was from my ethics
and my values, and I could stand

305
00:17:04,083 --> 00:17:07,653
strongly in that, that I may not
have gotten the result I wanted.

306
00:17:08,343 --> 00:17:13,593
Luckily, Rachel, about five years later,
we ran into each other at a party and

307
00:17:13,593 --> 00:17:15,213
he said to me, Joe, I want to thank you.

308
00:17:15,773 --> 00:17:18,863
I didn't, I'm sorry what I did to
you, and I did not want to hear

309
00:17:18,863 --> 00:17:23,123
it then, but it did plant a seed
and eventually I did seek help.

310
00:17:23,646 --> 00:17:27,156
Now, I'm glad I got that
gratification five years later

311
00:17:27,156 --> 00:17:28,926
to resolve it within myself.

312
00:17:29,136 --> 00:17:32,676
But on some level, I didn't need
it because I still could stand in

313
00:17:32,676 --> 00:17:37,446
my conviction, conviction that I,
according to my values, I did the

314
00:17:37,446 --> 00:17:39,036
right, the, the thing that was needed.

315
00:17:39,306 --> 00:17:42,276
I don't, I don't like to use words like
right and wrong, but the thing that

316
00:17:42,276 --> 00:17:46,506
was needed in that moment to, to take
care of, and I, and I talk about this

317
00:17:46,506 --> 00:17:50,646
in Fierce Civility, we become, instead
of being, um, aggressors and defenders,

318
00:17:50,646 --> 00:17:52,566
we become protectors and nurturers.

319
00:17:53,066 --> 00:17:58,736
So in a sense, I was protecting and
nurturing him, me, our, our group.

320
00:17:59,158 --> 00:18:03,568
And, and, and, and that was why I can
stand in my conviction of my motivation.

321
00:18:04,576 --> 00:18:09,556
I'm just noticing that actually it, it's
quite a sacrifice, isn't it, for you

322
00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:12,106
to, to say something in that situation.

323
00:18:12,166 --> 00:18:16,248
Because I, I'm observing, I think
that like nine times out of 10, if

324
00:18:16,248 --> 00:18:19,829
someone was to give me some negative
feedback or some difficult feedback,

325
00:18:19,859 --> 00:18:23,669
they'd probably get quite a defensive
response from me, um, initially.

326
00:18:23,699 --> 00:18:25,649
Or they might get a, oh, I'm so awful.

327
00:18:25,649 --> 00:18:29,189
Then they've got a coat with me being
really upset or defensive response.

328
00:18:29,189 --> 00:18:33,134
So it's actually a lot easier
for people just to, to stay

329
00:18:33,134 --> 00:18:34,904
silent and not say anything.

330
00:18:35,354 --> 00:18:39,194
However long term, I, I would then reflect
on it and probably go back to them three

331
00:18:39,194 --> 00:18:40,724
months later and go, thank you so much.

332
00:18:40,724 --> 00:18:43,514
But you've got to
tolerate that discomfort.

333
00:18:43,634 --> 00:18:47,384
And as we are talking, I'm just
thinking one of the reasons I

334
00:18:47,384 --> 00:18:50,114
think we are chronically nice,
particularly in medicine, is that's

335
00:18:50,114 --> 00:18:54,464
part of our identity, is to be really
nice, be really self-sacrificial.

336
00:18:54,464 --> 00:18:57,644
Look how much I'm sacrificing
myself for the care of the patients.

337
00:18:57,644 --> 00:18:59,564
So I'm not saying, no, I'm
not setting boundaries.

338
00:18:59,564 --> 00:19:03,344
And but we don't realize that another
type of self-sacrifice is actually

339
00:19:03,614 --> 00:19:07,514
being misunderstood or getting that
defensive reaction or somebody not

340
00:19:07,514 --> 00:19:09,104
liking you because of what you said.

341
00:19:09,104 --> 00:19:13,334
And I would say that's probably much more
courageous self-sacrifice than the just

342
00:19:13,334 --> 00:19:15,554
always being really nice to other people.

343
00:19:15,554 --> 00:19:19,908
But you do get that defensive reaction
all the time from people and that I

344
00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:22,105
find it really, really hard to tolerate.

345
00:19:22,306 --> 00:19:23,926
Well, it's an occupational hazard.

346
00:19:23,926 --> 00:19:26,716
People go into professions like
that to take care of people.

347
00:19:26,716 --> 00:19:28,156
'cause they're naturally caregivers.

348
00:19:28,156 --> 00:19:31,396
And you know, that could come
from childhood trauma where

349
00:19:31,396 --> 00:19:32,656
that was their way of surviving.

350
00:19:32,776 --> 00:19:32,986
You know?

351
00:19:32,986 --> 00:19:34,996
And if that's the way
you survived, thank you.

352
00:19:35,086 --> 00:19:37,923
You know, that's the, that's your,
that's your coping mechanism.

353
00:19:38,313 --> 00:19:42,543
Um, and again, it, it's okay if you,
but, but if you're always doing that,

354
00:19:42,543 --> 00:19:45,993
if that's always your default, then it
becomes chronic and it becomes unhealthy.

355
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,771
You know, And I, and I would say
that it's more a question of just

356
00:19:48,771 --> 00:19:50,601
breaking the polarity, right?

357
00:19:50,601 --> 00:19:55,339
Because I would say this is, I've watched
enough TV shows about hospitals to know

358
00:19:55,339 --> 00:19:59,659
that, you know, if you're going into, if,
if you're a doctor in ER and someone comes

359
00:19:59,659 --> 00:20:03,859
in and the only thing that's gonna save
them is literally cracking their chest

360
00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:06,449
open, you're gonna crack their chest open.

361
00:20:06,449 --> 00:20:07,649
That's not being nice.

362
00:20:07,679 --> 00:20:08,819
That's aggressive.

363
00:20:09,220 --> 00:20:13,545
It's an aggressive act that
will save someone's life.

364
00:20:13,712 --> 00:20:17,402
So that it's breaking this idea that
being, that, that being a caregiver

365
00:20:17,402 --> 00:20:21,902
always has to be done with a soft
voice and with a big smiley face

366
00:20:22,352 --> 00:20:23,972
and, and with, and, and gentle.

367
00:20:23,972 --> 00:20:28,412
Sometimes the most effective way to
take care of someone is to be fierce,

368
00:20:29,282 --> 00:20:31,112
and no doctor would question that.

369
00:20:31,329 --> 00:20:33,462
I remember, I would say this
in my classes sometimes.

370
00:20:33,462 --> 00:20:37,215
I remember watching a movie where,
in the movie, and it took place,

371
00:20:37,215 --> 00:20:40,515
the movie took place in the, in the
19th century I think, a father was

372
00:20:40,515 --> 00:20:44,805
with his daughter and they were out
in the Amazon Forest or something.

373
00:20:45,195 --> 00:20:49,725
And one morning, uh, they woke up and
he, and he slit his daughter's throat.

374
00:20:50,219 --> 00:20:55,259
And I said, the story is, is that he
woke up and saw that his daughter was

375
00:20:55,259 --> 00:21:01,094
cut by a, was bitten by a snake, and
that the, the venom was closing her

376
00:21:01,094 --> 00:21:04,784
throat and that the only thing that
saved her was to cut open her throat.

377
00:21:05,342 --> 00:21:07,292
So that, that's what happens.

378
00:21:07,292 --> 00:21:10,862
Your, your, your initial reaction,
your fight, flight, freeze response

379
00:21:10,862 --> 00:21:15,782
is going to be to, to, to either wanna
be, fight the situation, run away from

380
00:21:15,782 --> 00:21:18,512
the session or freeze in the situation.

381
00:21:19,142 --> 00:21:22,652
What's in, what I find fascinating, at
least that I find fascinating with my

382
00:21:22,652 --> 00:21:24,722
work is that it's based on martial arts.

383
00:21:25,305 --> 00:21:30,315
I bring it, it's all an embodied,
uh, somatic practice of, it's not

384
00:21:30,315 --> 00:21:33,195
about, uh, let me learn how to kick
and punch so I can get what I want.

385
00:21:33,195 --> 00:21:37,803
But it's more about, particularly Tai
chi and aikido of understanding that

386
00:21:37,803 --> 00:21:41,463
when force is coming with you, how
can you pivot that force so that it's

387
00:21:41,463 --> 00:21:45,693
not, you're not stuck in the fight or
the, or the submission, but that you

388
00:21:45,693 --> 00:21:47,583
stay in the dance of the conversation.

389
00:21:48,363 --> 00:21:52,563
And I make it very clear that
any difficult conversation

390
00:21:52,593 --> 00:21:54,543
is going to be uncomfortable.

391
00:21:55,818 --> 00:21:58,428
Which means that it,
it, it, it, it just is.

392
00:21:58,428 --> 00:22:00,768
So the sooner you accept that, the better.

393
00:22:01,068 --> 00:22:05,958
And any uncomfortable situation,
the human nervous system will either

394
00:22:05,958 --> 00:22:08,958
fight or run away from it or freeze.

395
00:22:09,258 --> 00:22:15,413
So a lot of the work in the somatic
aspect is to train yourself to feel

396
00:22:15,523 --> 00:22:19,488
this sense of uncomfortable, but being
able to stay in the uncomfortable.

397
00:22:19,488 --> 00:22:23,688
And an important component is helping
people through like a laboratory

398
00:22:23,688 --> 00:22:28,578
process in the training over a
period of time, be able to delineate

399
00:22:28,578 --> 00:22:31,638
in their systems the difference
between unsafe and uncomfortable.

400
00:22:32,308 --> 00:22:35,938
For most of us, and certainly for people
who have a history of trauma or are

401
00:22:35,938 --> 00:22:39,508
suffering from chronic stress, and I
would say that's pretty much every human

402
00:22:39,508 --> 00:22:43,738
being on the planet right now, that the
nervous system can't tell the difference

403
00:22:43,738 --> 00:22:45,658
anymore between unsafe and uncomfortable.

404
00:22:46,099 --> 00:22:48,679
And that the nervous system,
yay, yay nervous system.

405
00:22:48,679 --> 00:22:51,859
We have it because it's ma it
wants to make sure we're safe.

406
00:22:52,489 --> 00:22:55,939
And it is set up in an autonomic
nervous system as you, as you, you

407
00:22:55,939 --> 00:22:59,479
know, as you well know to either
run from a situation or fight the

408
00:22:59,479 --> 00:23:04,369
situation or freeze whatever, whatever
strategy is necessary in that moment.

409
00:23:04,579 --> 00:23:09,439
So we don't wanna lose that,
but in a modern society, right?

410
00:23:09,439 --> 00:23:13,219
So, so that was set up to, to make sure
we don't get eaten by hungry tigers.

411
00:23:13,719 --> 00:23:16,749
Well, the nervous system can't tell
the difference between a hungry tiger

412
00:23:17,139 --> 00:23:21,099
and your supervisor saying to you, come
into my office, we need to have a talk.

413
00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:25,429
So your nervous system is gonna,
it's uncomfortable, but if you can't

414
00:23:25,429 --> 00:23:29,089
delineate between uncomfortable
and unsafe, your nervous system

415
00:23:29,089 --> 00:23:30,679
is gonna go into hungry tiger.

416
00:23:30,973 --> 00:23:33,223
And therefore you're gonna
approach that conversation

417
00:23:33,223 --> 00:23:35,225
from, I'm gonna be annihilated.

418
00:23:35,475 --> 00:23:39,855
So the, I, so the, the idea of the work
is, is not necessarily to get rid of

419
00:23:39,855 --> 00:23:43,665
the uncomfortable, but to learn how
to be skillful in the uncomfortable.

420
00:23:44,025 --> 00:23:45,645
That's why the martial arts comes in.

421
00:23:45,645 --> 00:23:47,565
That's because it's what,
that's what athletes do.

422
00:23:47,895 --> 00:23:49,155
That's what performers do.

423
00:23:49,605 --> 00:23:54,405
They train themselves on a daily basis
to know they're gonna walk in where

424
00:23:54,405 --> 00:23:57,645
their nervous system is gonna be in a
high level of stress, the hormones are

425
00:23:57,645 --> 00:24:01,444
gonna be off the chart, but they can
still have clarity of thought and the

426
00:24:01,674 --> 00:24:03,354
mind-body connection is still there.

427
00:24:03,354 --> 00:24:07,601
Higher brain, lower brain is connected
and they can still function well.

428
00:24:07,968 --> 00:24:09,921
So I'm sure doctors can do that.

429
00:24:09,921 --> 00:24:11,511
Particularly ER doctors, right?

430
00:24:11,511 --> 00:24:15,891
Or emergency doctors, they, you
thank you for doing that, and you

431
00:24:15,891 --> 00:24:19,311
do it brilliantly, so you have the
skills, but just think, imagine if

432
00:24:19,311 --> 00:24:24,741
you can take that into your difficult
conversations that you stay regulated.

433
00:24:24,801 --> 00:24:29,571
And that for me, you know, most,
uh, difficult conversation models

434
00:24:29,691 --> 00:24:31,251
are based on the words, right?

435
00:24:31,251 --> 00:24:35,991
So a small component of my trainings is
what's the proper, name the behavior,

436
00:24:36,171 --> 00:24:41,151
express how it makes you feel, express
the need, what are the solutions, right?

437
00:24:41,151 --> 00:24:45,741
And I bring that into, but because
of the conversation we're having

438
00:24:45,741 --> 00:24:50,751
now, most of my work is how do I
approach the situation that I make the

439
00:24:50,751 --> 00:24:52,821
conversation as easy for the other.

440
00:24:53,071 --> 00:24:56,041
So the third tool, and this
brings in the third tool, right?

441
00:24:56,041 --> 00:25:00,421
So the in, in the TEDx talk, A Cure for
Chronic Niceness, regulate the nervous

442
00:25:00,451 --> 00:25:02,731
system, meet the others where they are.

443
00:25:03,424 --> 00:25:05,734
That already puts them
at more ease, right?

444
00:25:05,734 --> 00:25:08,314
So you are regulated, so they're
not there because if you're

445
00:25:08,314 --> 00:25:10,714
gonna walk in dysregulated,
they're gonna get dysregulated.

446
00:25:11,434 --> 00:25:14,224
If you walk in regulated, their
nervous system is, is gonna be

447
00:25:14,224 --> 00:25:15,544
like, I can trust this, right?

448
00:25:16,384 --> 00:25:17,224
Meet the others.

449
00:25:17,224 --> 00:25:19,924
Where they are is that they feel
that they're seen and heard, and

450
00:25:19,924 --> 00:25:23,044
not from a higher place, you're
judging them or criticizing them.

451
00:25:23,764 --> 00:25:25,984
And the third is create safety and trust.

452
00:25:26,484 --> 00:25:30,444
This is a way of getting buy-in, of
calling people into the conversation

453
00:25:30,444 --> 00:25:33,504
that even though they're not
gonna like what they hear, they'll

454
00:25:33,504 --> 00:25:35,004
stay in the conversation longer.

455
00:25:35,004 --> 00:25:37,644
Which brings to the fourth
tool, is getting collaborative

456
00:25:37,644 --> 00:25:42,504
buy-in so that they're willing
to work with you collaboratively

457
00:25:43,164 --> 00:25:44,454
to come up with a solution.

458
00:25:44,894 --> 00:25:49,111
And if I can go on, I mean in, in
the work, I spend a lot of time

459
00:25:49,111 --> 00:25:53,754
helping people rewire in their own,
thought process, the difference

460
00:25:53,754 --> 00:25:55,470
between confrontation and comfort.

461
00:25:55,817 --> 00:25:59,267
If you look at the etymology of
the words, the word, the etymology

462
00:25:59,267 --> 00:26:03,527
of the word conflict is very much
about battle, fight, um, harm.

463
00:26:04,047 --> 00:26:09,147
The etymology, or the basic definition
of the word to confront is to cause

464
00:26:09,147 --> 00:26:12,117
to meet, to bring face to face.

465
00:26:12,791 --> 00:26:16,481
So the word itself, when it was
invented, when it came to be,

466
00:26:16,601 --> 00:26:18,701
wasn't about violence or harm.

467
00:26:19,031 --> 00:26:22,271
It was simply, and it could be in
challenge, right, to confront and

468
00:26:22,271 --> 00:26:24,251
challenge, but we've conflated the two.

469
00:26:24,650 --> 00:26:29,120
So by separating that, I say
that, you know, conflict is any

470
00:26:29,180 --> 00:26:33,730
encounter that causes separation
and the breakdown of relationship

471
00:26:33,730 --> 00:26:35,560
and the disempowerment of another.

472
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,060
And con confrontation,
therefore is the exact opposite.

473
00:26:40,060 --> 00:26:41,020
These are my definitions.

474
00:26:41,020 --> 00:26:45,550
I'm not saying they're the best for the
definitions, but this helps me to step

475
00:26:45,550 --> 00:26:48,580
into that situation, for instance, with
my friend, with the drinking problem.

476
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:53,020
A confrontation is any encounter
that deepens relationship brings

477
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:57,100
individuals closer together
and empowers everyone involved.

478
00:26:57,940 --> 00:27:01,210
And sometimes being nice and
kind is a wonderful way to deepen

479
00:27:01,210 --> 00:27:05,350
relationship, bring people closer
together and empower everyone involved.

480
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:07,030
But that's not enough.

481
00:27:07,780 --> 00:27:12,850
And I would say that to truly deepen
relationship, cultivate relationship based

482
00:27:12,850 --> 00:27:18,310
on safety and trust, there has to be time
given to the difficult conversations.

483
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:23,860
They're messy, but in the messiness,
if you can both stay in it with

484
00:27:23,860 --> 00:27:29,466
hearts open and respect, you'll
come out with more understanding

485
00:27:29,466 --> 00:27:31,296
with, for each other, more respect.

486
00:27:32,076 --> 00:27:34,446
And, uh, that's what
deepens the relationship.

487
00:27:34,946 --> 00:27:39,356
I absolutely love that difference
between confrontation and conflict.

488
00:27:39,575 --> 00:27:43,475
The conflict separates and
confrontation meets and brings together.

489
00:27:43,475 --> 00:27:45,155
And if we could, yeah.

490
00:27:45,215 --> 00:27:49,835
In our heads switch round and say
that actually yeah, that, that

491
00:27:49,835 --> 00:27:52,655
I'm, I'm gonna have a confrontation
because I really want to meet that

492
00:27:52,655 --> 00:27:54,665
person and deepen the relationship.

493
00:27:54,665 --> 00:27:56,675
Wow, that is really, really empowering.

494
00:27:57,215 --> 00:28:00,755
But before we do that, I just want to
go back firstly and ask you, how do

495
00:28:00,755 --> 00:28:06,013
you teach people to know the difference
between unsafe and uncomfortable?

496
00:28:06,013 --> 00:28:08,773
'Cause I think that is a key
thing that you've hit on.

497
00:28:08,773 --> 00:28:09,193
And you're right.

498
00:28:09,193 --> 00:28:13,513
In medicine, we see a lot of things
as unsafe, and even, even the patients

499
00:28:13,513 --> 00:28:16,903
we're trained to think of as unsafe,
and we're going to fight, flight

500
00:28:16,903 --> 00:28:20,323
or freeze because, you know, we
might get sued if we make a mistake.

501
00:28:20,323 --> 00:28:23,203
So we, we are in that
threat zone an awful lot.

502
00:28:23,703 --> 00:28:27,789
How do we know the diff how, how, how
would you help someone tell what the

503
00:28:27,789 --> 00:28:29,499
difference is and then act on that

504
00:28:29,874 --> 00:28:30,206
Right.

505
00:28:30,387 --> 00:28:32,127
I can't tell them how the difference is.

506
00:28:32,127 --> 00:28:33,987
I can help them feel it in their bodies.

507
00:28:34,017 --> 00:28:35,817
I can give them awareness.

508
00:28:36,162 --> 00:28:42,507
I, I give awareness and tools and
exercises and skills to slow down the

509
00:28:42,507 --> 00:28:47,517
system, the nervous system, to gain
more awareness, to understand that

510
00:28:47,577 --> 00:28:49,707
your wisdom resides in your body.

511
00:28:50,337 --> 00:28:54,327
Your, your, your intellect is in
your brain, but your wisdom resides

512
00:28:54,327 --> 00:28:55,952
in your body and your heart.

513
00:28:56,532 --> 00:29:00,612
And, and, and, and I think the
reptilian brain gets a bad rap, right?

514
00:29:00,612 --> 00:29:02,172
So I'm like, yay, reptilian brain.

515
00:29:02,562 --> 00:29:04,632
The reptilian brain has a lot of wisdom.

516
00:29:04,662 --> 00:29:07,722
It's all, it's there
to do is care for you.

517
00:29:08,262 --> 00:29:08,952
That's it.

518
00:29:09,612 --> 00:29:12,912
Its only function is to take
care of you and keep you alive.

519
00:29:12,972 --> 00:29:13,932
That's beautiful.

520
00:29:14,505 --> 00:29:18,857
But we've, because we're so wired
to not trust our instincts or our

521
00:29:18,857 --> 00:29:24,797
intuition, or our body wisdom or our
heart wisdom, and we're in a society that

522
00:29:24,797 --> 00:29:32,022
only trusts, um, grades and statistics
and facts, which are not bad, right?

523
00:29:32,022 --> 00:29:34,992
It's not a question of good or
bad, but it's out of balance.

524
00:29:35,052 --> 00:29:39,912
If we're only trusting that, then
we lose trust in a large portion

525
00:29:39,912 --> 00:29:42,372
of our own, uh, uh, wisdom.

526
00:29:43,422 --> 00:29:47,772
And so, uh, the work is helping people
drop in and really start to remember

527
00:29:47,772 --> 00:29:51,642
what it's like to listen and to be aware,
not only what's happening around them,

528
00:29:51,642 --> 00:29:56,172
but within, and to know that listening
to, if they start feeling sensations in

529
00:29:56,172 --> 00:29:57,672
their body, there's information there.

530
00:29:58,482 --> 00:30:01,002
If an emotion is flowing,
there's information there.

531
00:30:01,062 --> 00:30:05,952
It's not a judge, you know, and then
to learn how to interpret it, right?

532
00:30:05,952 --> 00:30:09,942
So, so the first thing, many of us don't
listen to the wisdom of the body or the

533
00:30:09,942 --> 00:30:12,822
heart because a, a, we're just too busy.

534
00:30:12,852 --> 00:30:14,982
We're running around and
we can't even hear it.

535
00:30:15,312 --> 00:30:16,572
There's too much noise.

536
00:30:17,072 --> 00:30:20,972
Let's say we do slow down and we start
listening, and we start feeling more

537
00:30:20,972 --> 00:30:24,872
specific sensations and feelings and,
and, and that we're the way that the

538
00:30:24,872 --> 00:30:26,402
body and the heart is talking to you.

539
00:30:26,762 --> 00:30:29,672
The second obstacle is we
don't know it's vocabulary yet.

540
00:30:30,121 --> 00:30:31,411
So there's a vocabulary.

541
00:30:32,021 --> 00:30:33,221
So that's the second thing.

542
00:30:33,221 --> 00:30:35,681
I mean, maybe we start
listening and we start learning.

543
00:30:35,681 --> 00:30:37,001
It's like vocabulary.

544
00:30:37,271 --> 00:30:40,991
The third obstacle is we don't
trust that as valid information.

545
00:30:41,378 --> 00:30:44,704
And what's really key, Rachel,
is that it's not a, it's not a,

546
00:30:44,854 --> 00:30:50,314
it's not a scientific, uh, uh,
statistic, data-driven analysis.

547
00:30:51,094 --> 00:30:54,304
The, the only person on this planet
who can determine if you're feeling

548
00:30:54,304 --> 00:30:56,074
safe at any given moment is you.

549
00:30:56,652 --> 00:30:59,142
And if people question that and
say, oh, that's just ridiculous, you

550
00:30:59,142 --> 00:31:02,172
know, you know, then you say, well,
you know, uh, that's your, that's

551
00:31:02,172 --> 00:31:06,184
your truth that it's ridiculous, but
this is what I'm feeling right now.

552
00:31:06,609 --> 00:31:10,959
And so the, so the, the, the way to do
it is that to just feel okay that you

553
00:31:10,959 --> 00:31:14,379
start learning, first of all, the first
step is to say, okay, I'm beginning

554
00:31:14,379 --> 00:31:16,149
to feel nervous system activation.

555
00:31:16,569 --> 00:31:19,149
The stress worms are getting,
hormones are getting activated.

556
00:31:19,449 --> 00:31:22,539
The sympathetic nervous system's
getting activated, something's going

557
00:31:22,539 --> 00:31:29,099
on to allow that to be there, but not
get you into a, a, a, lose, lose your

558
00:31:29,099 --> 00:31:34,229
critical thinking and not get lost in
fight, flight, freeze, still be able

559
00:31:34,229 --> 00:31:39,659
to have, um, critical analysis and in
the feelings of that to look around

560
00:31:39,659 --> 00:31:42,269
and say, is my situation safe or not?

561
00:31:42,769 --> 00:31:44,539
I'm feeling uncomfortable.

562
00:31:44,719 --> 00:31:48,199
Now I'm gonna evaluate if
my situation is safe or not.

563
00:31:49,129 --> 00:31:53,119
And that I can determine, I can say,
yes, this is very uncomfortable and

564
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:55,477
I do feel safe, so I will continue.

565
00:31:56,257 --> 00:32:01,527
Or this is uncomfortable and I can
recognize the, what's making me feel

566
00:32:01,527 --> 00:32:04,107
unsafe, and I can now address that.

567
00:32:04,407 --> 00:32:08,577
Theoretically, it sounds really
lovely and it takes practice

568
00:32:08,807 --> 00:32:12,167
Because I'm thinking there's probably
a lot of things that make us feel

569
00:32:12,167 --> 00:32:14,537
unsafe that aren't actually unsafe.

570
00:32:14,537 --> 00:32:15,587
It's just that feeling.

571
00:32:15,587 --> 00:32:18,797
And you were saying it's about
learning new habitations.

572
00:32:19,097 --> 00:32:22,877
What things do, sort of people in high
stress jobs, high achievers, what sort

573
00:32:22,877 --> 00:32:27,227
of things do they have to unlearn in
order to have those new habitations?

574
00:32:27,227 --> 00:32:31,427
What's the sort of thinking patterns or
the habits that you've noticed in people

575
00:32:31,487 --> 00:32:35,177
that are trying to learn the new ones
that they've gotta get rid of first?

576
00:32:35,567 --> 00:32:39,257
I think that it's a, it's, uh,
it's to realize that problem

577
00:32:39,287 --> 00:32:43,007
solving isn't necessarily always
the appropriate thing to do.

578
00:32:43,698 --> 00:32:48,888
Uh, problem solving is usually
dealing with the, the, like, if it is

579
00:32:48,888 --> 00:32:50,590
putting a bandaid on the wound, right?

580
00:32:50,590 --> 00:32:54,970
So if, if, if there's blood gushing from
a, from a, from a, from a wound, problem

581
00:32:54,970 --> 00:32:56,470
solving is putting a bandaid on it.

582
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:59,480
You've stopped the bleeding,
but the cause is still there.

583
00:33:00,020 --> 00:33:04,880
So it's understanding that, um, you
don't get to, you don't solve the issue

584
00:33:05,015 --> 00:33:09,620
in a, in a pattern, in a dynamic, in
a relationship, a work relationship,

585
00:33:09,620 --> 00:33:13,520
personal relationship until you can
identify the root cause of the problem.

586
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:15,650
I work a lot with engineers.

587
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:16,880
I love working with engineers.

588
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,100
I love working with
doctors and scientists.

589
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,670
I've worked with NASA for 12
years and many different, and

590
00:33:22,670 --> 00:33:24,080
many different institutions.

591
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,801
And, and I love working with that brain
to basically map the intellectual to the

592
00:33:28,801 --> 00:33:31,201
heart, to the empathy and the compassion.

593
00:33:31,701 --> 00:33:36,171
But what I love in, in, uh, engineering is
what's called root, root cause analysis.

594
00:33:36,671 --> 00:33:39,011
That you and, and you do
this in medicine, right?

595
00:33:39,011 --> 00:33:42,071
You know, so someone comes in,
I've got, uh, pain here, I've got

596
00:33:42,071 --> 00:33:45,071
pain here, and you, you don't just,
you can deal with the pain, but

597
00:33:45,071 --> 00:33:46,901
you're looking other deeper causes.

598
00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:49,706
For some reason, we don't do
that in our relationships.

599
00:33:50,186 --> 00:33:53,466
And, and any and any respectful
confrontation or in Fierce

600
00:33:53,486 --> 00:33:57,136
Civility, you wanna get to
the root cause of the problem.

601
00:33:57,406 --> 00:34:00,136
When you can, when you can
identify what the root cause of the

602
00:34:00,136 --> 00:34:03,166
problem is, uh, you address that.

603
00:34:03,616 --> 00:34:06,376
And once you've addressed that
and it's gone, then the problem

604
00:34:06,376 --> 00:34:08,354
goes away and it won't come back.

605
00:34:08,639 --> 00:34:11,469
So, you know, one of the subtitles
for Respectful Confrontation

606
00:34:11,489 --> 00:34:14,099
is Respectful Confrontation:
it's never about the dishes.

607
00:34:14,529 --> 00:34:16,029
And that's, that's a perfect example.

608
00:34:16,029 --> 00:34:19,629
You can spend years saying,
please do the dishes.

609
00:34:19,629 --> 00:34:21,129
Why aren't you doing the dishes?

610
00:34:21,549 --> 00:34:24,309
And you come with the same strategy
every time to get them to do

611
00:34:24,879 --> 00:34:26,619
the dishes and it never works.

612
00:34:26,829 --> 00:34:31,389
But imagine having the skills and
the strategies to stop for a moment

613
00:34:31,389 --> 00:34:32,859
and meet them where they are.

614
00:34:33,062 --> 00:34:36,512
And 'cause usually if you can do
that where, and, and create safety

615
00:34:36,512 --> 00:34:41,312
and trust and give them space
and just speak your truth, right?

616
00:34:41,312 --> 00:34:45,992
And a key component of this is,
my truth does not equal the truth.

617
00:34:46,249 --> 00:34:49,909
But oftentimes these are, these
conversations, especially in power

618
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:55,249
dynamics, they go off the rails because
we say you are always late and it's

619
00:34:55,249 --> 00:34:57,529
irresponsible and it has to stop.

620
00:34:58,129 --> 00:35:00,829
That's not a way to get someone
to change their behavior.

621
00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:04,016
But to be able to approach and say,
you know what, I'm noticing that,

622
00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:08,996
that, uh, uh, we meet at, at at 9:00 AM
and you're always, and you're usually

623
00:35:08,996 --> 00:35:13,611
coming in at 9:10 9:15 The effect it's
having on me and the team is that we're

624
00:35:13,611 --> 00:35:15,741
distracted and we can't get focused.

625
00:35:16,051 --> 00:35:17,971
What we need is more consistency.

626
00:35:18,421 --> 00:35:21,811
Can you mind sharing or just even to
say that I'm noticing that you're,

627
00:35:21,811 --> 00:35:26,431
that you're, that you're coming in
9:10 9:15 that's facts, that's not an

628
00:35:26,431 --> 00:35:28,051
interpretation, that's not judgment.

629
00:35:28,801 --> 00:35:30,571
And then ask what's going on.

630
00:35:30,874 --> 00:35:34,504
And by giving that space, if you've
created the safety and trust, I've

631
00:35:34,504 --> 00:35:38,434
seen it over and over again, that
person might burst into tears and

632
00:35:38,434 --> 00:35:44,028
say, my son is suffering from serious
illness at the moment and I'm just

633
00:35:44,478 --> 00:35:46,668
trying to manage to get into school.

634
00:35:47,195 --> 00:35:51,155
I barely get 'em to school and when I do,
then I'm running here as quickly as I can.

635
00:35:51,425 --> 00:35:53,255
You didn't have that information before.

636
00:35:53,807 --> 00:35:57,377
So that's where the deepening of
relationship comes, is that if

637
00:35:57,377 --> 00:36:01,310
you give them the benefit of the
doubt and not just judge them, then

638
00:36:01,310 --> 00:36:04,250
you're gonna get more information
and it's with that more information

639
00:36:04,250 --> 00:36:05,850
you can come up with new solutions.

640
00:36:06,281 --> 00:36:11,335
We noticed when we've been teaching our
sort of conflict model of preparing for

641
00:36:11,335 --> 00:36:16,075
different difficult conversations that,
uh, doctors get stuck at a certain point.

642
00:36:16,075 --> 00:36:20,065
So they sort of can do the, we talk
about the higher intention, and I'd

643
00:36:20,065 --> 00:36:23,455
love you to talk a bit more about,
you know, the motivation that we

644
00:36:23,455 --> 00:36:25,135
need to go in, in with in a minute.

645
00:36:25,705 --> 00:36:28,075
But once they think they've
identified the problem.

646
00:36:28,795 --> 00:36:32,485
It's like their brain shuts down and
we go straight into problem solving.

647
00:36:33,325 --> 00:36:35,215
And I notice myself doing this.

648
00:36:35,275 --> 00:36:36,505
I think I've listened really well.

649
00:36:36,565 --> 00:36:37,465
Okay, what's the real problem?

650
00:36:37,470 --> 00:36:37,910
Real problem.

651
00:36:37,915 --> 00:36:38,155
Right.

652
00:36:38,185 --> 00:36:40,075
Okay, here's what you should do.

653
00:36:40,495 --> 00:36:42,055
And then it sort of goes south.

654
00:36:42,715 --> 00:36:44,590
So that sounds a little bit
like what you are talking about.

655
00:36:45,089 --> 00:36:46,079
it is what I'm talking about.

656
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:47,069
And I think that's the thing.

657
00:36:47,069 --> 00:36:51,359
I've worked with so many different kinds
of organizations and I see that what

658
00:36:51,359 --> 00:36:56,579
they're good at, what their business
is, doctors, conflict resolution people,

659
00:36:56,909 --> 00:37:01,409
uh, engineers, that they also use those
same strategies in their communication

660
00:37:01,409 --> 00:37:03,179
skills and management skills.

661
00:37:03,569 --> 00:37:04,499
And they're different.

662
00:37:04,504 --> 00:37:05,789
They're, they're different skills.

663
00:37:05,789 --> 00:37:09,269
So basically what you've just
described is what a doctor would do.

664
00:37:09,419 --> 00:37:10,769
Okay, we've identified the problem.

665
00:37:10,829 --> 00:37:13,259
I'm not gonna give you a prescription,
I'm gonna give you, now you're,

666
00:37:13,559 --> 00:37:15,029
I'll tell you what you need to do.

667
00:37:15,568 --> 00:37:18,488
And again, it's a quick solution.

668
00:37:18,518 --> 00:37:22,748
Then you can say, we're done, we move
on, but it's not empowering that person.

669
00:37:22,808 --> 00:37:26,828
You know, if it's a real, if it's a work
relationship or your child or, or, or

670
00:37:26,828 --> 00:37:32,318
someone in your life, what you wanna
do is invite them into the creative

671
00:37:32,528 --> 00:37:34,928
process of coming up with a new solution.

672
00:37:35,428 --> 00:37:38,128
If you just tell them what to do,
it's just gonna be another thing

673
00:37:38,128 --> 00:37:41,218
that's on their list of, of, okay,
I've gotta do it 'cause they told me.

674
00:37:41,511 --> 00:37:45,430
But in that, when I'm, when I'm,
when I'm coaching CEOs, managers,

675
00:37:45,730 --> 00:37:47,020
this is part of the process.

676
00:37:47,020 --> 00:37:52,030
You have to, uh, coach them into
coming up with their own solution.

677
00:37:52,445 --> 00:37:55,295
Because if they come up with
their own solution, it's more

678
00:37:55,295 --> 00:37:59,165
likely they're going to do it and
follow through and keep doing it.

679
00:37:59,705 --> 00:38:04,941
They also feel respect, they feel
valued, they feel like they belong.

680
00:38:05,508 --> 00:38:10,088
This is becoming more of an issue,
is this sense of how are you calling

681
00:38:10,088 --> 00:38:12,698
people into, into, in the work process?

682
00:38:13,358 --> 00:38:17,408
Because a lot of people are leaving
The re, re retention is a real issue.

683
00:38:17,618 --> 00:38:18,728
How do you keep people?

684
00:38:19,058 --> 00:38:22,718
Well, you keep them and there's
been statistics that have said that

685
00:38:22,718 --> 00:38:25,268
that many people leave, not because
they didn't like their job, but

686
00:38:25,268 --> 00:38:26,528
because they didn't feel valued.

687
00:38:26,851 --> 00:38:28,591
They weren't getting any purpose.

688
00:38:28,868 --> 00:38:33,428
So as a leader, as a manager, as if you're
working with a team, what can you do?

689
00:38:33,998 --> 00:38:37,628
Your job is to help them
feel like they have value.

690
00:38:38,248 --> 00:38:41,608
If they feel that, then they're gonna come
to work and wanna give you their best.

691
00:38:41,901 --> 00:38:46,400
What if you've stated the facts in a
very, you know, non-judgmental way, but

692
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,990
they don't agree that it's a problem.

693
00:38:48,170 --> 00:38:50,456
Because actually this behavior's
serving them well, they're

694
00:38:50,456 --> 00:38:51,746
getting quite a lot out of it.

695
00:38:51,977 --> 00:38:52,697
Oh, this is fun.

696
00:38:52,727 --> 00:38:53,027
Okay.

697
00:38:53,117 --> 00:38:56,507
Um, well that's why that, that's
why there's strategy, right?

698
00:38:56,507 --> 00:38:57,947
So that's why I use the martial arts.

699
00:38:57,947 --> 00:39:00,497
So now we're talking like, okay,
if we're gonna go into a martial

700
00:39:00,497 --> 00:39:04,337
arts match, you're saying, what
am I, defensive strategies, right?

701
00:39:04,337 --> 00:39:07,607
And actually I do a whole
demonstration of that.

702
00:39:07,607 --> 00:39:12,017
The, in the respectful confrontation
model, there's four parts, and all four

703
00:39:12,017 --> 00:39:15,617
are important to approach a difficult
conversation in the most effective way.

704
00:39:15,677 --> 00:39:17,327
The first one is respectful self.

705
00:39:17,662 --> 00:39:20,962
It's cultivating, you know, you,
your, your own nervous system

706
00:39:20,962 --> 00:39:24,862
regulation, centering, knowing
your own values, how you show up.

707
00:39:25,492 --> 00:39:27,232
The second is respectful
engagement, right?

708
00:39:27,232 --> 00:39:28,132
So presence.

709
00:39:28,612 --> 00:39:30,112
Second is respectful engagement.

710
00:39:30,112 --> 00:39:31,522
How do you come into connection?

711
00:39:32,092 --> 00:39:35,722
I believe if you can really get those
two down, that you're truly authentically

712
00:39:35,722 --> 00:39:40,402
connected to yourself and the other,
they're not gonna be as reactive and

713
00:39:40,402 --> 00:39:41,512
they're not gonna be as defensive.

714
00:39:42,412 --> 00:39:43,912
The third is respectful offense.

715
00:39:43,912 --> 00:39:45,412
How do you approach the conversation?

716
00:39:45,412 --> 00:39:49,732
And the most reason why most people come
to my trainings is for respectful defense.

717
00:39:50,032 --> 00:39:51,892
How do you deal with people's reactivity?

718
00:39:52,332 --> 00:39:53,712
And it's all strategy.

719
00:39:54,041 --> 00:39:57,281
So if you approach it, I, uh, you
know, if you say you're always

720
00:39:57,281 --> 00:39:59,531
late, then they'll say, no, I'm not.

721
00:40:00,031 --> 00:40:03,185
Well, uh, Jonathan's
always late too, right?

722
00:40:03,185 --> 00:40:04,865
There, that that's the
fight, flight, freeze.

723
00:40:04,865 --> 00:40:07,475
And you've basically lost
the battle at that moment.

724
00:40:07,985 --> 00:40:13,915
But if you say the last two weeks you've
come in between 9:10 and 9:20, you're not,

725
00:40:13,915 --> 00:40:17,035
you're not, you're not judging, you're not
criticizing, you're actually giving facts.

726
00:40:17,125 --> 00:40:19,405
And if they say, no, it's not
true, then you say, well then

727
00:40:19,405 --> 00:40:20,635
let's go look at your time sheet.

728
00:40:20,935 --> 00:40:24,325
So the beauty of, of the tai chi
and the aikido is that you actually

729
00:40:24,325 --> 00:40:28,402
take the force that they're coming
with, and you find it a respectful,

730
00:40:28,422 --> 00:40:32,472
compassionate way to turn it around
back to get you back into connection.

731
00:40:33,212 --> 00:40:35,942
And if they continue to say,
well, what's the big deal?

732
00:40:36,442 --> 00:40:36,802
Right.

733
00:40:36,862 --> 00:40:39,052
Uh, you know, you're, you're,
you're making a big deal of it,

734
00:40:39,712 --> 00:40:41,332
then you go into the next point.

735
00:40:41,332 --> 00:40:41,872
Well, yeah.

736
00:40:41,932 --> 00:40:43,672
Um, you know, for me it is a big deal.

737
00:40:44,482 --> 00:40:49,822
Uh, I walk, I walk in and I, I, I'm
already dealing with a lot of anxious

738
00:40:49,822 --> 00:40:52,732
people in a very high stress situation.

739
00:40:53,302 --> 00:40:57,622
And this is for me, what I would consider
an unnecessary extra stress that I

740
00:40:57,652 --> 00:40:59,842
just don't need, that none of us need.

741
00:41:00,342 --> 00:41:02,922
So that, so that, that, that's
another way of approaching it.

742
00:41:02,922 --> 00:41:07,242
Then you're appealing to that, then
they get to feel what the impact is.

743
00:41:07,638 --> 00:41:10,848
And then you're relying on them
being good human beings and going,

744
00:41:10,848 --> 00:41:12,528
oh, I don't want that impact on you.

745
00:41:12,588 --> 00:41:14,598
I want to, I want to change it.

746
00:41:15,078 --> 00:41:15,828
What if they don't?

747
00:41:16,161 --> 00:41:20,283
Uh, well then, then, then
you basically say, well, why?

748
00:41:20,806 --> 00:41:24,064
If I, if you're, if you're doing
this behavior and we have proof that

749
00:41:24,064 --> 00:41:27,381
you're doing this behavior, and I'm
telling you the impact it's having on

750
00:41:27,381 --> 00:41:30,078
me, and that doesn't bother you, why?

751
00:41:30,138 --> 00:41:31,068
Why doesn't that bother you?

752
00:41:31,313 --> 00:41:34,488
And I guess if they said, well, because
actually it doesn't matter, as long

753
00:41:34,488 --> 00:41:37,248
as I'm okay, then at least I guess
you know what you're dealing with.

754
00:41:37,428 --> 00:41:41,478
You can go, okay then respectfully,
we just need to agree to disagree

755
00:41:41,508 --> 00:41:44,782
'cause nothing's gonna, this
possibly can't go forward anymore?

756
00:41:44,908 --> 00:41:45,748
Well, yes.

757
00:41:45,748 --> 00:41:48,418
I mean, well, I, I wouldn't say,
I don't like using the expression

758
00:41:48,418 --> 00:41:52,318
personally agree to disagree, because
particularly in the Fierce Civility,

759
00:41:52,318 --> 00:41:55,138
it's important because what we're seeing
playing out politically and everything.

760
00:41:55,618 --> 00:42:00,808
For me, what that's saying is my
need to be right is more important

761
00:42:00,808 --> 00:42:02,518
than us coming up with a solution.

762
00:42:02,918 --> 00:42:05,258
And I don't think that,
that, that's my truth.

763
00:42:05,258 --> 00:42:08,888
I'm not saying it's the truth, but
that's not the way to go, right?

764
00:42:08,888 --> 00:42:12,668
It, because that, that, that's a whole
thing of why is your need to be right.

765
00:42:13,118 --> 00:42:16,958
Why are you so stuck and rigid in
that there has to be something.

766
00:42:17,408 --> 00:42:21,162
But I think it's more of a question
to say that they were able to say out

767
00:42:21,162 --> 00:42:24,085
loud, I have no empathy or care for you.

768
00:42:24,412 --> 00:42:26,842
And then you could that, you
know, so you got them to say it.

769
00:42:26,902 --> 00:42:28,492
So you say, now I know
what I'm dealing with.

770
00:42:28,492 --> 00:42:34,428
Yes, and don't expect anything
from me, and I will seek elsewhere.

771
00:42:34,915 --> 00:42:39,578
But I truly believe Rachel, just like
with my friend who came back five years

772
00:42:39,578 --> 00:42:44,365
later, I may not have gotten what I
wanted in the conversation today, but

773
00:42:44,365 --> 00:42:47,935
there's no way that that person is not
gonna be continuing to think about what

774
00:42:47,935 --> 00:42:51,633
just happened, and that they actually
said out loud, I don't care about you.

775
00:42:52,091 --> 00:42:56,862
Now, another thing is, I don't know,
is if it's, if it, if it really gets to

776
00:42:56,862 --> 00:43:00,942
that point and it's really destructive,
then, then I think at that point

777
00:43:00,942 --> 00:43:04,442
you have permission to go to your
supervisor or go to HR. I think, you

778
00:43:04,442 --> 00:43:06,032
know, I say, this is what happened.

779
00:43:06,062 --> 00:43:07,292
I did my best.

780
00:43:07,832 --> 00:43:13,172
This person said to me, they really don't
care, etc, etc, what do we do about it?

781
00:43:13,504 --> 00:43:17,074
Yes, 'cause there's, there's no point
in flogging a dead horse is there, you

782
00:43:17,074 --> 00:43:20,404
know, if that, that person is, is gonna
be completely intransigent, doesn't

783
00:43:20,404 --> 00:43:24,056
want to see things from other people's
perspective, is completely self absorbent,

784
00:43:24,116 --> 00:43:27,536
and, and, and they've stated that,
then at least you've got the clarity.

785
00:43:27,536 --> 00:43:31,646
I think that clarity is, and, and in a way
they're being kind, clear is kind, right?

786
00:43:31,651 --> 00:43:34,138
They're, they're saying their
truth, you might not agree.

787
00:43:34,561 --> 00:43:37,749
So how do you then deal with that
when you've got someone who's being

788
00:43:37,749 --> 00:43:40,449
intransigent, who's saying, well, I'm,
I don't agree, i'm not gonna do that.

789
00:43:40,449 --> 00:43:44,229
I don't actually care about you or the
partnership or the, and, and, and you

790
00:43:44,229 --> 00:43:46,989
know, we've had examples from listeners
of that where there's been a consultant

791
00:43:46,989 --> 00:43:51,266
in there, bunch of consultants who's
just setting very harsh boundaries,

792
00:43:51,266 --> 00:43:52,261
which is affecting everybody else.

793
00:43:52,466 --> 00:43:56,636
Now I'm all, I'm all for boundaries, but
these people are really taking the piss.

794
00:43:57,117 --> 00:44:00,867
So what, what do you do when
you can't escalate it upwards?

795
00:44:01,232 --> 00:44:04,742
Yeah, that's a good question, so, so I'll,
I'll give a, a few ways to approach it.

796
00:44:04,992 --> 00:44:08,497
uh, it's already too late on some
level, at that point, you could say.

797
00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:10,970
The idea is to be proactive, right?

798
00:44:10,970 --> 00:44:16,400
So, so when, if I'm working with
a team, um, I, I do a whole values

799
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,270
clarification and, um, where everyone
gets to state their values, everyone

800
00:44:20,270 --> 00:44:21,800
gets to share it with each other.

801
00:44:22,430 --> 00:44:25,370
They get to honor each other for those
values, and then I say, let's write

802
00:44:25,370 --> 00:44:29,420
that on one big, large piece of paper,
everyone's top one or three values.

803
00:44:29,947 --> 00:44:33,967
And are we willing to make this
list of values our code of ethics,

804
00:44:34,237 --> 00:44:35,185
of how we treat each other?

805
00:44:35,635 --> 00:44:39,805
So the proactive thing is to start with
a code of ethics, a code of behavior.

806
00:44:40,165 --> 00:44:42,775
Not a code of ethics of how
you treat your patients or how

807
00:44:42,835 --> 00:44:45,209
outward facing, but inward facing.

808
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:51,179
Many companies forget that, particularly
caregivers, we think, and it's shocking

809
00:44:51,179 --> 00:44:54,959
to me and, and the hospitals I've worked
in and, and the healthcare providers

810
00:44:55,176 --> 00:45:01,582
that these are the most loving, caring,
nurturing, uh, people with patients,

811
00:45:01,582 --> 00:45:05,602
but how they treat themselves and
each other, it's quite remarkable.

812
00:45:05,692 --> 00:45:07,252
I'll say that's, I'll leave it at that.

813
00:45:07,762 --> 00:45:08,962
And there's a disconnect.

814
00:45:08,962 --> 00:45:11,842
So the, so, so the whole, the work
is a bit, particularly I think, and

815
00:45:11,842 --> 00:45:13,942
that's the shifting of the paradigm.

816
00:45:14,332 --> 00:45:17,962
We're, we're, we're, we're
shifting out of a Victorian or old

817
00:45:17,962 --> 00:45:22,765
fashioned paradigm where caregivers
must suffer and, and sacrifice.

818
00:45:22,795 --> 00:45:26,331
It's, and I'm not saying the other
extreme is that it's all about them,

819
00:45:26,331 --> 00:45:27,801
but that there's, there's a balance.

820
00:45:28,461 --> 00:45:31,131
There's a, there, there, there
has to be a self-care aspect.

821
00:45:31,261 --> 00:45:34,659
Yeah, I mean, this is our whole message
that we need to protect our time and our

822
00:45:34,689 --> 00:45:36,399
energy, and it's not about suffering.

823
00:45:36,399 --> 00:45:38,439
'cause you can't care, can you,
if you have no time and you

824
00:45:38,439 --> 00:45:40,239
have no, and you have no energy.

825
00:45:40,427 --> 00:45:43,037
So oftentimes companies will not go well.

826
00:45:43,037 --> 00:45:46,427
They'll be dysfunctional or they'll
fail because they may have done a

827
00:45:46,427 --> 00:45:50,537
beautiful job of clarifying their values
outward facing, but not inward facing.

828
00:45:51,047 --> 00:45:54,377
So if there's a clear, so when you hire
someone, you just show them that list.

829
00:45:54,377 --> 00:45:56,747
This is how we're gonna, this
is how we treat each other.

830
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:02,340
If this is a problem for you, having
empathy and caring about your coworker,

831
00:46:02,460 --> 00:46:04,260
this is not the place for you to work.

832
00:46:04,770 --> 00:46:05,340
That's all.

833
00:46:05,490 --> 00:46:06,300
No judgment.

834
00:46:06,330 --> 00:46:08,010
It's simply practical.

835
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,400
If they choose to come in and they're
still doing behavior that's like, I

836
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,170
don't care, then you can say, remember.

837
00:46:13,515 --> 00:46:14,985
We're gonna hold you accountable.

838
00:46:15,465 --> 00:46:18,615
So that's what, that's what you do when
you can escalate, is to say, if you

839
00:46:18,615 --> 00:46:23,715
haven't done it yet, what can you do to
spend some time in a retreat or a day or

840
00:46:23,715 --> 00:46:26,175
whatever, to just get back to each other?

841
00:46:26,175 --> 00:46:27,105
Get back to yourself.

842
00:46:27,105 --> 00:46:30,105
Slow down, get back to heart
connection with one another.

843
00:46:30,615 --> 00:46:33,015
Remember who you are and who they are.

844
00:46:33,765 --> 00:46:34,845
And then ask questions.

845
00:46:34,845 --> 00:46:36,315
How do we want to treat each other?

846
00:46:36,845 --> 00:46:39,785
Because, because it's getting
more volatile and challenging,

847
00:46:39,815 --> 00:46:43,835
this is more important now that
we can take care of each other,

848
00:46:43,865 --> 00:46:45,665
that we've got each other's back.

849
00:46:46,064 --> 00:46:46,874
Are you in?

850
00:46:47,550 --> 00:46:50,727
And if people say no, then say,
well, you know, maybe this is not

851
00:46:50,727 --> 00:46:51,657
the place for you, I don't know.

852
00:46:51,657 --> 00:46:53,937
But that, but that's where I think
it comes, so that when you're in

853
00:46:53,937 --> 00:46:58,017
that situation, then you can call
back on, well, remember we made

854
00:46:58,017 --> 00:46:59,307
this agreement with each other.

855
00:46:59,607 --> 00:47:02,517
I think that's a really
useful principle for teams.

856
00:47:02,877 --> 00:47:06,267
One of the issues that we have is that
people are working in these so-called

857
00:47:06,267 --> 00:47:10,377
teams where there might be 50 consultants,
which are like, that can't be a team,

858
00:47:10,377 --> 00:47:11,517
that's a work, that's a working group.

859
00:47:11,517 --> 00:47:14,007
So you've got like 50 to
a hundred consultants.

860
00:47:14,007 --> 00:47:17,277
You know, some teams of anesthetists
are 300, you know, in a department.

861
00:47:17,277 --> 00:47:18,267
So that's your team.

862
00:47:18,567 --> 00:47:21,502
People are hired for service
delivery,, not necessary for

863
00:47:21,502 --> 00:47:23,542
their, um, for their values.

864
00:47:23,557 --> 00:47:27,245
And then it becomes a question of,
and a lot where you said, you know,

865
00:47:27,245 --> 00:47:28,895
holding each other accountable.

866
00:47:29,345 --> 00:47:33,395
Then my brain's going, well,
okay, who do we hold accountable?

867
00:47:33,845 --> 00:47:36,635
'Cause I think a lot of people
just abdicate responsibility.

868
00:47:36,905 --> 00:47:39,965
We think, well, yeah, I can see that
my colleague who's part of my team,

869
00:47:39,965 --> 00:47:43,445
my working group is behaving in a
way that's affecting other people.

870
00:47:43,805 --> 00:47:45,095
But I'm just gonna put my head down.

871
00:47:45,095 --> 00:47:47,945
I'll just be responsible
for myself and my own stuff.

872
00:47:47,945 --> 00:47:51,245
So how do we know when we are
responsible for other people?

873
00:47:51,245 --> 00:47:53,765
How do we know when we are
responsible to other people?

874
00:47:54,335 --> 00:47:57,815
Um, because I was also listening to
a podcast recently about effective

875
00:47:57,815 --> 00:48:02,165
communication and one of, one of their key
rules was never give unsolicited opinions

876
00:48:02,165 --> 00:48:06,774
or advice, but how do we do that when
actually we are wanting to hold each other

877
00:48:06,774 --> 00:48:10,494
accountable and have a good standard in
our department and it's very gray area.

878
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:12,669
Well, I, I think so.

879
00:48:12,669 --> 00:48:13,539
I think it's a gray area.

880
00:48:13,539 --> 00:48:17,322
I think it's, um, you know, uh,
giving advice is different from

881
00:48:17,322 --> 00:48:18,522
holding accountable, right?

882
00:48:18,522 --> 00:48:22,242
Again, if there's, if there's already
agreements established, then you're

883
00:48:22,242 --> 00:48:24,552
just saying, Hey, I just wanna
remind you about our agreements.

884
00:48:24,552 --> 00:48:24,972
That's all.

885
00:48:24,972 --> 00:48:25,722
And it's done.

886
00:48:26,015 --> 00:48:28,325
And it's up to them to, whether
they do something with it.

887
00:48:28,704 --> 00:48:30,069
I, I don't, I see it differently.

888
00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:31,659
Unsolicited advice.

889
00:48:31,689 --> 00:48:32,079
Yes.

890
00:48:32,079 --> 00:48:35,979
Because usually the unsolicited advice
is coming from a place of I'm above

891
00:48:35,979 --> 00:48:41,102
you, i'm judging you, I'm criticizing
you, uh, I'm interpreting your behavior.

892
00:48:41,102 --> 00:48:42,812
I haven't done any investigation.

893
00:48:43,172 --> 00:48:43,472
I don't.

894
00:48:43,562 --> 00:48:43,892
Right.

895
00:48:44,252 --> 00:48:46,892
And that, that's the
antithesis of this work, right?

896
00:48:46,892 --> 00:48:47,282
So.

897
00:48:47,537 --> 00:48:50,627
If you feel there is a behavior
you have to investigate, give

898
00:48:50,627 --> 00:48:53,087
them the benefit of the doubt and
find out, Hey, what's going on?

899
00:48:53,564 --> 00:48:55,114
And it could be like,
I'm really struggling.

900
00:48:55,114 --> 00:48:57,394
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm having
problems at home, or whatever.

901
00:48:57,664 --> 00:49:00,034
And then it might turn into,
Hey, how can I help you?

902
00:49:00,176 --> 00:49:02,639
I, I have a little bit of
extra time, you know, whatever.

903
00:49:03,059 --> 00:49:04,259
That's collaboration.

904
00:49:04,259 --> 00:49:07,829
So that initial question of how are
you doing is already the process

905
00:49:07,829 --> 00:49:09,119
of holding one another accountable.

906
00:49:09,539 --> 00:49:14,899
So what it is, is a commitment from
everyone involved to nurture and protect

907
00:49:14,929 --> 00:49:17,359
the integrity of the collaboration.

908
00:49:17,718 --> 00:49:19,518
And that's an, that
needs to be in agreement.

909
00:49:19,518 --> 00:49:22,248
That can't just be done with a
memo, that can't just be done.

910
00:49:22,278 --> 00:49:24,798
That has to be in a re you
know, like I I say retreat, but

911
00:49:24,798 --> 00:49:26,778
just where people are present.

912
00:49:26,778 --> 00:49:29,958
And you can call them into that and
you give them space to say yes or no.

913
00:49:30,212 --> 00:49:32,942
And if you get everyone say that this
is, this is what we're gonna work on

914
00:49:32,942 --> 00:49:38,667
for 2026, I'm gonna nurture and protect
myself, I am gonna nurture and protect

915
00:49:38,667 --> 00:49:43,944
my colleagues, and we are all gonna
nurture and protect the integrity of our

916
00:49:43,944 --> 00:49:49,916
collaboration, then you're obliged to say
that, to call that person accountable.

917
00:49:50,166 --> 00:49:51,530
And if, and the same thing.

918
00:49:51,530 --> 00:49:54,270
So I appreciated your reaction
to the difference between

919
00:49:54,270 --> 00:49:55,500
confrontation and conflict.

920
00:49:55,980 --> 00:49:58,980
I've been doing this long enough now
that people in my world, particularly

921
00:49:58,980 --> 00:50:03,078
my colleagues and my trained cer,
my certified trainers, if I were

922
00:50:03,078 --> 00:50:06,168
to say to them, if they were to
say to me, Joe, I want to confront

923
00:50:06,168 --> 00:50:08,328
you, my reaction is, oh, thank you.

924
00:50:08,828 --> 00:50:13,568
Because we've established that the
motivation is to deepen relationship

925
00:50:13,628 --> 00:50:15,308
and to empower everyone involved.

926
00:50:15,588 --> 00:50:20,058
And I think that's the important thing to
remember, is that in an environment that

927
00:50:20,058 --> 00:50:26,428
doctors are in, that that the world is in,
if I am going to go through this horribly

928
00:50:26,428 --> 00:50:32,585
uncomfortable process to respectfully
confront you, what I'm saying to you is

929
00:50:32,675 --> 00:50:35,723
you matter and the relationship matters.

930
00:50:35,933 --> 00:50:40,903
So in a sense, in a different world,
maybe in 25 years, when this idea

931
00:50:40,903 --> 00:50:45,613
of confrontation is a healthy thing,
you people might say, Hey Rachel,

932
00:50:45,613 --> 00:50:46,843
I need to confront you on this.

933
00:50:46,843 --> 00:50:49,704
And you say, oh, thank you,
because you're saying I matter.

934
00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:51,620
' Cause it's much easier not to do it.

935
00:50:51,830 --> 00:50:55,700
It's much easier to gossip, it's much
easier to, to start talking about

936
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:57,770
people and to, to disconnect and

937
00:50:58,225 --> 00:51:01,795
it would be really good to be able to say
that upfront because our inner amygdala

938
00:51:01,825 --> 00:51:06,235
chimp response, it, it is so strong
that we do get the, these reactions.

939
00:51:06,235 --> 00:51:11,429
How could you say to somebody, in a sort
of non patronizing, non cringey way, I

940
00:51:11,429 --> 00:51:14,429
wanna have a confrontation because I want
to deepen our relationship, which means,

941
00:51:14,429 --> 00:51:15,869
I'm gonna say some challenging stuff?

942
00:51:16,589 --> 00:51:19,679
Because being able to say, I'm gonna
have a confrontation be great, and I'm

943
00:51:19,679 --> 00:51:21,419
gonna talk to talk to my team about this.

944
00:51:21,419 --> 00:51:24,869
So if you say to someone like, can I just,
I want to have a confrontation it all.

945
00:51:25,049 --> 00:51:28,049
Automatic means I've got some stuff
I need to say, and the purpose

946
00:51:28,049 --> 00:51:30,899
is so that we can work together
better and deepen our relationship.

947
00:51:31,469 --> 00:51:34,559
How would you say that with a colleague
you don't really know very well?

948
00:51:34,784 --> 00:51:35,006
Right.

949
00:51:35,006 --> 00:51:37,826
So Well then you can't use the
word con confrontation 'cause

950
00:51:37,826 --> 00:51:41,576
they, you know, this is, this has,
it becomes an agreement, right?

951
00:51:41,576 --> 00:51:42,776
You know, it's the same
thing with doctors.

952
00:51:42,776 --> 00:51:46,106
You agree on certain terminology
and you, if you agree on it, and

953
00:51:46,106 --> 00:51:48,686
then you use it and you trust
that everybody understands it.

954
00:51:49,076 --> 00:51:53,756
I made a really bad mistake when I started
working with, uh, combat veterans in the

955
00:51:53,756 --> 00:51:58,196
US and we were, we were designing, we
were doing a retreat with the team that

956
00:51:58,196 --> 00:52:00,086
I'd be working with the facilitators.

957
00:52:00,776 --> 00:52:06,476
And one man is, was a Marine who made, did
many tours in Afghanistan and in, in Iraq.

958
00:52:07,090 --> 00:52:11,020
And I said in, in one of our
planning sessions, I said,

959
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:12,220
I'd like to confront you.

960
00:52:12,550 --> 00:52:17,320
Well, he went into full marine mode
and he literally brought his chair

961
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:22,150
up, came right up to my face and said,
oh yeah, you want to confront me?

962
00:52:22,650 --> 00:52:25,890
I will tell you that's where I had
to really regulate my nervous system.

963
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:28,350
So I've learned my lesson
not to do that anymore.

964
00:52:28,620 --> 00:52:30,690
You can only do that when
you've all established that

965
00:52:30,690 --> 00:52:33,420
confrontation is yay, right?

966
00:52:33,750 --> 00:52:36,270
Is healthy is a way of
deepening relationship.

967
00:52:36,540 --> 00:52:42,540
But what you could say is, listen, do you
have some time now, or if not now, can we

968
00:52:42,540 --> 00:52:44,790
find some time, 20 minutes, 30 minutes?

969
00:52:45,150 --> 00:52:46,590
There's something I want
to talk to you about.

970
00:52:46,590 --> 00:52:50,262
And for me I can tell you, uh,
it's gonna be really uncomfortable.

971
00:52:50,622 --> 00:52:54,102
So, but it's, I think it's
important for us to do, right?

972
00:52:54,102 --> 00:52:55,632
So that's where it's not patronizing.

973
00:52:55,632 --> 00:52:57,312
You bring, you bring it back to yourself.

974
00:52:57,462 --> 00:52:58,902
It's gonna be difficult for me.

975
00:52:59,378 --> 00:53:03,728
And one Rachel, one of the fundamental
principles of all the work I do is this

976
00:53:03,728 --> 00:53:08,618
idea of, it's in your vulnerability
that your true power is revealed.

977
00:53:09,028 --> 00:53:12,658
And a lot of the trainings in this
like laboratory thing is to feel

978
00:53:12,658 --> 00:53:13,978
into what does it actually mean?

979
00:53:13,978 --> 00:53:15,988
How is vulnerability
different from weakness?

980
00:53:16,048 --> 00:53:17,976
How is it different from submission?

981
00:53:18,636 --> 00:53:21,666
And it's been trending not just with
me, but around the world in leadership

982
00:53:21,666 --> 00:53:25,986
development, that, particularly with
Gen Zers and millennials, that's what's

983
00:53:25,986 --> 00:53:30,936
being asked of leaders and people in
authority, I would say doctors, is

984
00:53:30,936 --> 00:53:35,281
a certain level of vulnerability and
transparency because what that, what By

985
00:53:35,426 --> 00:53:40,166
being able to show up in a more vulnerable
and transparent way where you're still

986
00:53:40,166 --> 00:53:44,966
authentic to yourself and you're revealing
of yourself, their nervous system is

987
00:53:44,966 --> 00:53:50,036
gonna feel that and they're gonna drop in
with a deeper level of safety and trust.

988
00:53:50,446 --> 00:53:54,796
It's if, when you're coming with like
a art, an artifice or, or kind of a, a,

989
00:53:54,796 --> 00:53:59,176
an an authority thing, you know, some
people might really get charged by the

990
00:53:59,176 --> 00:54:04,110
authority thing and then follow you,
but it's shifting in 2025, 26, with,

991
00:54:04,110 --> 00:54:07,440
certainly with the younger ge younger
generations there, there, it's, they're,

992
00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:12,029
they're for their own psychological
safety, they are expecting a certain

993
00:54:12,029 --> 00:54:13,859
level of vulnerability and transparency.

994
00:54:14,279 --> 00:54:17,969
And when you can train yourself to be
in that without sacrificing your, giving

995
00:54:17,969 --> 00:54:23,399
something away, you'll find that you can
actually have more impact and influence

996
00:54:23,565 --> 00:54:25,725
with less time, effort, and energy.

997
00:54:26,355 --> 00:54:29,805
Can you give an example of what
that might look like in a leader?

998
00:54:29,805 --> 00:54:31,180
What vulnerability might look like?

999
00:54:31,717 --> 00:54:36,217
Hey everyone, we have an issue, and,
uh, we made some choices about how we

1000
00:54:36,217 --> 00:54:39,907
wanna approach it, and I can say from
my point, I brought in a couple of ideas

1001
00:54:39,907 --> 00:54:44,741
that just didn't work, and, uh, uh, I, I
need your help, need your help now for us

1002
00:54:44,741 --> 00:54:47,171
together to figure out how to solve this.

1003
00:54:47,421 --> 00:54:50,211
That's one that's, you know, right
there, you know, and, and maybe

1004
00:54:50,421 --> 00:54:53,536
I'm not saying that always is gonna
work, but that's one example in a

1005
00:54:53,536 --> 00:54:55,966
situation where you can, it's a risk.

1006
00:54:56,313 --> 00:54:58,323
But to be able to say, I made a mistake.

1007
00:54:58,919 --> 00:55:02,632
You, you can't imagine the return on
investment when you can be able to

1008
00:55:02,632 --> 00:55:06,052
say, I, I didn't make the right choice,
or however, wherever wording you, you

1009
00:55:06,052 --> 00:55:11,269
don't, you can't imagine what that's
gonna do for someone who's in your team,

1010
00:55:11,509 --> 00:55:12,889
how they're gonna show up tomorrow.

1011
00:55:13,039 --> 00:55:13,579
Wow.

1012
00:55:13,785 --> 00:55:17,565
If he can admit, or she can admit, admit
that, that, that, that he didn't make

1013
00:55:17,565 --> 00:55:21,675
the right choice or she didn't make the
right choice, then I can also do the same.

1014
00:55:22,022 --> 00:55:24,152
I can show up more also authentically.

1015
00:55:24,402 --> 00:55:27,559
And so what you're saying is if you
then go into this conversation with

1016
00:55:27,559 --> 00:55:31,069
someone saying, look, I'd love to put
some time aside just to have a chat.

1017
00:55:31,459 --> 00:55:34,489
I, I, you know, I've got some stuff to
share that feels really uncomfortable,

1018
00:55:34,489 --> 00:55:38,159
i'm, I've been really worried about
raising this, so I would probably

1019
00:55:38,159 --> 00:55:39,899
then maybe go over into fawn.

1020
00:55:40,079 --> 00:55:42,479
So I'm, I'm, I'm really sorry if it
offends you or anything like that,

1021
00:55:42,479 --> 00:55:43,739
and I'm really worried about it.

1022
00:55:43,739 --> 00:55:43,799
Ugh.

1023
00:55:44,909 --> 00:55:48,539
You should just, maybe just one, one line
as opposed to 10 different lines about it.

1024
00:55:48,629 --> 00:55:49,139
No, no.

1025
00:55:49,529 --> 00:55:53,339
Well, the, the, the note, the less words
you for, first of all, that's another

1026
00:55:53,369 --> 00:55:58,859
re respectful defense aspect of strategy
is every word you bring into a difficult

1027
00:55:58,859 --> 00:56:04,341
conversation, that person can grab it
and run with it to dismantle or to, cha,

1028
00:56:04,386 --> 00:56:06,782
to, break down the conversation, right?

1029
00:56:06,782 --> 00:56:08,612
So the less words you use, the better.

1030
00:56:09,062 --> 00:56:12,092
So, yeah, it just has to be, Hey, listen,
I've got, there, there's some, there's an,

1031
00:56:12,242 --> 00:56:13,982
there's an issue I wanna discuss with you.

1032
00:56:14,402 --> 00:56:15,332
It's gonna be uncomfortable.

1033
00:56:15,482 --> 00:56:19,742
I feel a little uncomfortable about doing
it, so I wanna make sure that we have

1034
00:56:19,742 --> 00:56:24,047
concentrated time, not just when we're
walking from one patient to another, but

1035
00:56:24,047 --> 00:56:27,737
that we can really sit down and we have
a quiet space where we can really talk.

1036
00:56:28,307 --> 00:56:31,847
Uh, and it's important for me and I and,
and I think in how we're working together.

1037
00:56:31,847 --> 00:56:32,687
Are you open to it?

1038
00:56:32,937 --> 00:56:33,777
And what do we do though?

1039
00:56:34,017 --> 00:56:36,237
Because if that was me, I'd go, oh
yeah, that's fine, but I'm gonna

1040
00:56:36,237 --> 00:56:37,287
worry about what that issue is now.

1041
00:56:37,377 --> 00:56:39,477
Well, can you just gimme a
heads up about what it's about?

1042
00:56:39,590 --> 00:56:43,370
That's a tricky one because, yeah, 'cause,
'cause, 'cause the, the, the, the danger

1043
00:56:43,370 --> 00:56:47,300
of doing that is then you're gonna end
up, as you're walking from one patient

1044
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:49,550
to the ne next have the conversation.

1045
00:56:49,872 --> 00:56:53,562
So you can say, you can say it's about
how we're, how, uh, it's about how,

1046
00:56:53,577 --> 00:56:55,962
uh, uh, we are delivering reports.

1047
00:56:56,304 --> 00:57:00,404
And uh, you just give them the, give
them, give them the um, the topic.

1048
00:57:00,494 --> 00:57:01,004
Topic.

1049
00:57:01,004 --> 00:57:03,164
But not the criticism or

1050
00:57:03,194 --> 00:57:03,524
No.

1051
00:57:03,764 --> 00:57:04,994
just the, the topic.

1052
00:57:05,024 --> 00:57:05,384
Okay.

1053
00:57:05,594 --> 00:57:08,054
It's about how we're giving reports.

1054
00:57:08,054 --> 00:57:09,854
Six or seven words, period.

1055
00:57:09,854 --> 00:57:10,244
Close the

1056
00:57:10,454 --> 00:57:12,444
It's about how we're organizing the rota.

1057
00:57:12,494 --> 00:57:14,064
Yeah, okay, okay.

1058
00:57:14,384 --> 00:57:18,224
Because I was gonna ask about gray
areas, because you know, earlier it's

1059
00:57:18,224 --> 00:57:22,634
like, you know, you came in at nine,
10 past nine, between 10, past nine 20.

1060
00:57:22,634 --> 00:57:24,894
No, I didn't, let's look at the
facts, let's look at the rota.

1061
00:57:25,138 --> 00:57:27,388
But a lot of these things are
very nuanced, aren't they?

1062
00:57:27,388 --> 00:57:31,558
A lot of these things about behaviors
that can be interpreted in different ways.

1063
00:57:31,558 --> 00:57:36,958
So when you don't have facts that you
can go and look at and someone's then

1064
00:57:36,958 --> 00:57:41,368
disputing what happened or whatever,
what, what do you, what do you do then?

1065
00:57:41,912 --> 00:57:46,515
Another strategy that's very powerful in
this is to always come from your truth.

1066
00:57:46,955 --> 00:57:48,845
And that's also a nervous system thing.

1067
00:57:48,875 --> 00:57:53,425
Like I, you know, if, if I'm saying
this is what I noticed, and all

1068
00:57:53,425 --> 00:57:54,925
I'm doing is sharing you with you.

1069
00:57:54,925 --> 00:57:58,705
What I notice and the reason why I'm
coming to you is to get, I don't know the

1070
00:57:58,705 --> 00:58:01,632
full story until I hear your, uh, truth.

1071
00:58:02,058 --> 00:58:05,088
And then that's an important moment
to not say anything and listen

1072
00:58:05,088 --> 00:58:06,378
and hear what they have to say.

1073
00:58:06,378 --> 00:58:11,028
You get so much information in that you
can't, you can't imagine how rewarding

1074
00:58:11,028 --> 00:58:14,508
that is because that'll let you know what
kind of a conversation it's gonna be.

1075
00:58:14,806 --> 00:58:17,986
Uh, if it's gonna be a respectful one and
a, and a balanced one, or if it's gonna

1076
00:58:17,986 --> 00:58:19,546
be a fight flight, freeze one, right?

1077
00:58:20,176 --> 00:58:24,736
And also there's information there that
you didn't have, which might help you

1078
00:58:24,736 --> 00:58:26,656
get a better idea of the full picture.

1079
00:58:27,042 --> 00:58:28,685
That in itself, you've already won,

1080
00:58:28,935 --> 00:58:32,115
Should you get them to tell you
their truth before you tell them

1081
00:58:32,145 --> 00:58:33,945
yours, before you give that feedback.

1082
00:58:33,945 --> 00:58:35,235
So you state yours first?

1083
00:58:35,334 --> 00:58:39,553
so Rachel, I'm glad we made this
time, that, and we've got 20 minutes.

1084
00:58:39,553 --> 00:58:42,673
I really want to use those 20 minutes
well, because for me this is important.

1085
00:58:42,673 --> 00:58:45,032
It's how we're doing scheduling
and things like that.

1086
00:58:45,613 --> 00:58:46,753
So I've introduced the topic.

1087
00:58:46,753 --> 00:58:49,003
So what I'm noticing is the following.

1088
00:58:49,392 --> 00:58:49,902
Right away.

1089
00:58:49,902 --> 00:58:51,552
'cause that's gonna help
their nervous system.

1090
00:58:51,552 --> 00:58:54,402
Like if I come and say, you are
doing this and you're doing this, I'm

1091
00:58:54,402 --> 00:58:56,172
purposely coming close to the camera.

1092
00:58:56,442 --> 00:58:56,802
Right?

1093
00:58:56,932 --> 00:58:58,342
That's meeting them where they are.

1094
00:58:58,579 --> 00:59:00,649
The things that I've
been noticing is this.

1095
00:59:00,859 --> 00:59:02,359
Rachel, do you see that as well?

1096
00:59:02,609 --> 00:59:03,569
No, I didn't notice that.

1097
00:59:03,569 --> 00:59:06,989
I don't, no, I'm, I think that person's
been a bit oversensitive there.

1098
00:59:07,156 --> 00:59:11,476
Alright, well, why don't you tell me about
your, your, you know, how it was for you,

1099
00:59:11,671 --> 00:59:11,821
Yeah.

1100
00:59:11,881 --> 00:59:14,431
Well, I said, you know, they
were complaining about this

1101
00:59:14,431 --> 00:59:15,511
and I was in a real rush.

1102
00:59:15,511 --> 00:59:15,751
Yeah.

1103
00:59:15,931 --> 00:59:16,201
Okay.

1104
00:59:16,201 --> 00:59:16,861
So that's, yeah.

1105
00:59:16,861 --> 00:59:19,951
So, so the minute you get the pushback,
you get, okay, that's interesting.

1106
00:59:19,951 --> 00:59:22,231
Tell me, tell me how it was for, yeah.

1107
00:59:22,261 --> 00:59:22,591
Okay.

1108
00:59:22,591 --> 00:59:22,831
I like

1109
00:59:23,033 --> 00:59:24,796
Yes, Ann, that's the thing.

1110
00:59:25,166 --> 00:59:29,090
Because what you're, the, the purpose of
this, and this is the strategic aspect

1111
00:59:29,090 --> 00:59:33,880
and kind of the martial arts, is that
the, the, the, the training in this is

1112
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:38,729
to learn how to keep that person in the
dialogue, in the creative process, right?

1113
00:59:38,729 --> 00:59:42,989
So that's what I'm doing and it's not, and
that's, you're breaking down the barrier

1114
00:59:42,989 --> 00:59:47,729
of me and you, of with, the distance
between us and you're saying, I'm doing

1115
00:59:47,729 --> 00:59:51,749
this because I wanna bring you into a
conversation because we have an issue.

1116
00:59:52,529 --> 00:59:53,939
It's not a right or wrong thing.

1117
00:59:54,119 --> 00:59:56,249
If you're gonna get caught up in
that, then that's, then that's

1118
00:59:56,249 --> 00:59:57,539
not, it's not a good or bad thing.

1119
00:59:58,023 --> 01:00:02,943
It's simply a certain set of behaviors
that are happening that's not making it

1120
01:00:03,033 --> 01:00:04,923
most effective for us to work together.

1121
01:00:05,447 --> 01:00:07,047
And that's what I'm here to do.

1122
01:00:07,289 --> 01:00:08,789
I know we can be working more effect.

1123
01:00:08,789 --> 01:00:09,719
That's the bottom line.

1124
01:00:09,719 --> 01:00:13,996
I know we can be working more effectively
together, I believe, and I'm gonna

1125
01:00:13,996 --> 01:00:17,587
share with you how I'm seeing it, and
now I want to hear how you see it.

1126
01:00:17,827 --> 01:00:19,537
And now we're in dialogue, right?

1127
01:00:19,537 --> 01:00:22,687
So the yes and is is what I
did was I kept you in dialogue.

1128
01:00:23,257 --> 01:00:25,507
Even if you're being No, no, no.

1129
01:00:25,507 --> 01:00:26,557
You're still in dialogue.

1130
01:00:26,883 --> 01:00:30,692
I just want to finish by asking
about motivation, because I know it's

1131
01:00:30,692 --> 01:00:35,312
really, really important, the reason
you are going into that conversation.

1132
01:00:35,312 --> 01:00:39,692
And I had a conversation with someone
recently, which went really badly.

1133
01:00:39,992 --> 01:00:45,212
Um, it was a family member, and I
thought my motivation was to repair

1134
01:00:45,212 --> 01:00:49,502
the relationship and to make sure
we could, you know, move forward.

1135
01:00:49,922 --> 01:00:53,582
But when I look back, my motivation
was so they understood how I felt.

1136
01:00:54,351 --> 01:00:58,341
Is that ever a good motivation to get
stuff off your chest and make sure

1137
01:00:58,341 --> 01:01:00,261
they know to tell them how I feel?

1138
01:01:00,774 --> 01:01:04,314
What I say to people is that when you
do a respectful confrontation, one

1139
01:01:04,314 --> 01:01:10,128
thing you, the, the win for you is that
you do get to speak your truth, not

1140
01:01:10,128 --> 01:01:11,838
get something off your chest, right?

1141
01:01:11,838 --> 01:01:12,498
That's different.

1142
01:01:12,888 --> 01:01:16,188
You get to speak your truth and you're
doing it hopefully in a way that's

1143
01:01:16,188 --> 01:01:21,018
non-judgmental, not non-critical, not
attacking, that they just, that, that

1144
01:01:21,018 --> 01:01:25,528
just to be able to say, this is what's
happening, this is your behavior, this

1145
01:01:25,528 --> 01:01:30,148
is the effect it has on me, and this
is where I'm not getting my needs met,

1146
01:01:30,208 --> 01:01:32,638
or I'm in pain, or I feel shut down.

1147
01:01:33,138 --> 01:01:36,108
And if they say that's
just the way the world is.

1148
01:01:36,618 --> 01:01:40,548
And you walk away, then yes, you can
feel satisfied that you spoke your truth.

1149
01:01:41,418 --> 01:01:45,108
But to come in, because basically what
you're doing is you wanna harm them.

1150
01:01:45,648 --> 01:01:48,258
You've been harmed, and that's that part.

1151
01:01:48,258 --> 01:01:50,538
And those hormones are
delicious, Rachel, right?

1152
01:01:50,538 --> 01:01:51,138
The hormones.

1153
01:01:51,318 --> 01:01:51,438
Yeah.

1154
01:01:51,468 --> 01:01:52,698
Those are, they're delicious.

1155
01:01:53,598 --> 01:01:55,848
They're gonna suffer because
you've made me suffer.

1156
01:01:55,968 --> 01:01:57,798
And that's a hard one to break.

1157
01:01:58,368 --> 01:02:00,378
But that's the, that's
a fight flight for you.

1158
01:02:00,378 --> 01:02:01,458
That's a fight response.

1159
01:02:01,908 --> 01:02:02,898
You made me suffer.

1160
01:02:02,898 --> 01:02:03,948
I'm gonna make you suffer.

1161
01:02:04,308 --> 01:02:08,568
That does not lead to deepening
of relationship and the

1162
01:02:08,568 --> 01:02:10,308
empowerment of everyone involved.

1163
01:02:10,698 --> 01:02:13,998
It has a different purpose,
which is satisfying temporarily.

1164
01:02:13,998 --> 01:02:15,762
Some delicious pleasure hormones.

1165
01:02:16,302 --> 01:02:20,142
Uh, so, so that, that's the motivation
piece, the motivation, you know.

1166
01:02:20,142 --> 01:02:23,232
And, and, and I, I'm glad you brought
that up because for me, this is, this

1167
01:02:23,232 --> 01:02:27,706
is my life mission, is particularly
at this time in the world, is, is.

1168
01:02:28,206 --> 01:02:33,462
Imagine if each one of us woke up
every morning and, and, and with glee

1169
01:02:33,605 --> 01:02:36,545
said who am I going to empower today?

1170
01:02:37,045 --> 01:02:38,335
Every human being.

1171
01:02:38,935 --> 01:02:42,265
And for those of us who are
beginners, say one person, for those

1172
01:02:42,265 --> 01:02:44,935
of us who are advanced, 10 people.

1173
01:02:45,565 --> 01:02:49,135
And, and also at imagine
what the world would be like.

1174
01:02:49,795 --> 01:02:50,815
That's a motivation.

1175
01:02:50,815 --> 01:02:54,245
That's my life motivation is
that there's so much suffering.

1176
01:02:54,245 --> 01:02:57,365
What can I do to alleviate
the suffering of others?

1177
01:02:57,767 --> 01:02:59,297
There's so many unhappy people.

1178
01:02:59,297 --> 01:03:02,357
What can I do to bring them
more hope and possibility?

1179
01:03:02,807 --> 01:03:05,177
That's my per, that's,
that brings me purpose.

1180
01:03:06,287 --> 01:03:07,937
So in terms of motivation, yes.

1181
01:03:07,937 --> 01:03:11,417
So if, if I'm working with people
or family members that are suffering

1182
01:03:11,417 --> 01:03:16,097
or that our relationship is not as
joyful and flowing as it can be, I

1183
01:03:16,097 --> 01:03:21,347
feel committed to make an attempt to
get us back to that flow, to get us

1184
01:03:21,347 --> 01:03:23,087
back to that open-heartedness love.

1185
01:03:24,082 --> 01:03:26,657
Uh, and so it's relationship maintenance.

1186
01:03:27,075 --> 01:03:30,165
So the, the way to approach this is
to first look into who you're working

1187
01:03:30,165 --> 01:03:35,606
with, with whom do I have flow,
that the collaboration is based on

1188
01:03:35,606 --> 01:03:38,606
safety and trust, that I only have
to say four and a half words, and

1189
01:03:38,606 --> 01:03:40,226
they understand exactly what I mean?

1190
01:03:40,406 --> 01:03:42,026
That's, that's wonderful.

1191
01:03:42,776 --> 01:03:46,136
And all your relationships
could be like that in a, of

1192
01:03:46,136 --> 01:03:47,546
course, in an ideal situation.

1193
01:03:47,546 --> 01:03:52,706
So the relationship maintenance part is to
say, okay, so the ones that are flowing,

1194
01:03:52,706 --> 01:03:54,326
what can I do to just maintain that?

1195
01:03:54,866 --> 01:03:59,066
And to appreciate them and say, thank
you so much for how we work together?

1196
01:03:59,456 --> 01:04:02,876
I can't, you know, 'cause that's important
also, that's also a confrontation.

1197
01:04:03,455 --> 01:04:07,925
To deepen relationship and power
is to give positive reinforcement.

1198
01:04:08,385 --> 01:04:11,085
But then to look at the relationships
where that flow isn't happening.

1199
01:04:11,670 --> 01:04:16,848
Or it's stagnant or whatever, and to
think, what can I do to introduce the

1200
01:04:16,848 --> 01:04:20,808
possibility of us breaking through some
of these barriers to get back into flow.

1201
01:04:21,308 --> 01:04:22,778
So it's all about motivation.

1202
01:04:22,778 --> 01:04:27,728
And, and, and as a, as a team leader,
how can you get your, your staff

1203
01:04:27,728 --> 01:04:31,095
to, to buy into the same motivation?

1204
01:04:31,395 --> 01:04:34,635
And that's what I call a
culture of mutual empowerment.

1205
01:04:35,020 --> 01:04:38,124
And I've worked with companies where
they didn't believe me at first, and

1206
01:04:38,124 --> 01:04:42,024
I've seen it happen where I say that if
you are truly have a culture of mutual

1207
01:04:42,024 --> 01:04:45,144
empowerment where everyone wakes up
in the morning and says, I'm gonna go

1208
01:04:45,144 --> 01:04:48,264
to work and who can I empower today?

1209
01:04:49,494 --> 01:04:52,134
Then it's possible that you'll go
home at the end of the day with

1210
01:04:52,134 --> 01:04:53,754
more energy than you came in with.

1211
01:04:54,345 --> 01:04:56,856
How can you build that into the system?

1212
01:04:56,856 --> 01:05:03,456
So someone told me once it either Google
or one of the big, um, tech companies said

1213
01:05:03,456 --> 01:05:06,486
that every, every day somebody had to go
to somebody and say, I've got something to

1214
01:05:06,486 --> 01:05:09,306
tell you that makes me feel uncomfortable,
but I've gotta say it anyway, type thing.

1215
01:05:09,336 --> 01:05:15,173
I mean, how can you build in this regular
empowering of each other, so it just

1216
01:05:15,173 --> 01:05:18,353
feels like something that we do rather
than like this really big deal when

1217
01:05:18,353 --> 01:05:20,753
we have to like, oh, I've gotta have
this 20 minute conversation, I've gotta

1218
01:05:20,753 --> 01:05:22,763
build up to it for days, et etc, etc?

1219
01:05:23,243 --> 01:05:25,793
Well, I think it starts
with teaching the tools.

1220
01:05:26,083 --> 01:05:30,523
You know, did it, it, it, teaching the
tools and, and having this conversation.

1221
01:05:31,228 --> 01:05:33,538
Do you think that this
is important, right?

1222
01:05:33,538 --> 01:05:36,425
So, you know, and, and I, you
know, do you think a culture

1223
01:05:36,425 --> 01:05:37,770
of accountability is important?

1224
01:05:38,146 --> 01:05:40,516
And you know, I say that, uh,
particularly now, like, you know,

1225
01:05:40,546 --> 01:05:44,026
having worked with also a lot of
organizations that are nonprofits

1226
01:05:44,026 --> 01:05:46,186
where inclusivity is important, right?

1227
01:05:46,666 --> 01:05:48,076
An inclusive work environment.

1228
01:05:48,496 --> 01:05:51,862
What I find missing from a
hierarchical system is inclusivity.

1229
01:05:52,181 --> 01:05:54,371
And there's a built in
accountability, right?

1230
01:05:54,371 --> 01:05:55,421
So it's hierarchical.

1231
01:05:55,781 --> 01:05:59,051
What I miss oftentimes in an inclusive
work environment is accountability.

1232
01:05:59,623 --> 01:06:04,993
And, uh, for an inclusive work environment
to to, to be healthy, there must be

1233
01:06:04,993 --> 01:06:08,533
agreed upon systems about how to hold
each other accountable, because you

1234
01:06:08,533 --> 01:06:10,693
don't have the hierarchical anymore.

1235
01:06:11,052 --> 01:06:13,872
So it's just a question that you
start with the, the philosophical.

1236
01:06:13,872 --> 01:06:15,342
Do you see this as important?

1237
01:06:15,342 --> 01:06:16,392
To a group of people.

1238
01:06:16,452 --> 01:06:20,892
It's about just getting, buying,
getting them to buy into, uh, to this.

1239
01:06:21,372 --> 01:06:24,792
Do you see what, what does
accountability look like to you?

1240
01:06:25,246 --> 01:06:26,536
When does it go bad?

1241
01:06:26,725 --> 01:06:28,915
When is it harmful, and
when is it beneficial?

1242
01:06:29,272 --> 01:06:30,532
And that's a starting point.

1243
01:06:30,882 --> 01:06:34,102
That can take one meeting, that
can take several meetings already.

1244
01:06:34,379 --> 01:06:38,345
And then you say, if we agree to do
this, maybe it's, maybe we should work

1245
01:06:38,345 --> 01:06:40,505
together to learn some tools to do this.

1246
01:06:40,856 --> 01:06:42,566
Joe, I've just had a complete epiphany.

1247
01:06:42,626 --> 01:06:47,426
Because when we are talking to leaders
about, you know, empowering your teams,

1248
01:06:47,426 --> 01:06:51,186
getting outta the rescue of being
more in coach, we talk to people about

1249
01:06:51,206 --> 01:06:54,716
encouraging people and empowering
people to solve their own problems.

1250
01:06:54,806 --> 01:06:59,096
And I think the piece that we've
been missing is, and speaking your

1251
01:06:59,096 --> 01:07:04,138
truth and confront in, in the best
way, in the best way, that, in that

1252
01:07:04,348 --> 01:07:06,928
way that you define confrontation.

1253
01:07:07,498 --> 01:07:12,225
So we need a, a coaching approach and
to encourage people and a good leader.

1254
01:07:12,518 --> 01:07:15,988
And a good team need to be regularly
confronting each other, right?

1255
01:07:16,102 --> 01:07:20,392
And the more, the more you, you practice
exercises of being present and connected,

1256
01:07:20,392 --> 01:07:25,522
then, then it's just you, you, you, you
start, you gain the sensitivity, which

1257
01:07:25,522 --> 01:07:30,952
I'm sure doctors have in, in, in dealing
with health issues, you, you start

1258
01:07:30,952 --> 01:07:32,692
thinking, what's the health of my team?

1259
01:07:33,442 --> 01:07:36,112
And that you begin to feel, oh,
I'm beginning to feel that there's

1260
01:07:36,112 --> 01:07:37,582
some tensions happening here.

1261
01:07:37,582 --> 01:07:39,223
And that's when you approach it.

1262
01:07:39,723 --> 01:07:43,263
And, uh, and because it's still
a low grade aggression, right?

1263
01:07:43,263 --> 01:07:44,013
It's like, oh.

1264
01:07:44,283 --> 01:07:46,923
And, and oftentimes if you've made the
agreements, like we said, you know,

1265
01:07:46,953 --> 01:07:51,248
it's just, I'm noticing that you're,
whatever it might be, and, uh, and,

1266
01:07:51,383 --> 01:07:54,743
and, and if, if it, if there's already
an agreement that it's okay to do

1267
01:07:54,743 --> 01:07:56,183
it, they'd be like, oh, thank you.

1268
01:07:56,183 --> 01:07:59,813
Because a culture of mutual empowerment
is, is working with a principal

1269
01:07:59,813 --> 01:08:01,523
I call benevolent competition.

1270
01:08:02,023 --> 01:08:03,493
The competition's essential.

1271
01:08:03,643 --> 01:08:06,973
That, and basically a culture of
mutual empowerment is saying I'm gonna

1272
01:08:06,973 --> 01:08:11,143
show up fully in my power and give
my personal best, because by doing

1273
01:08:11,143 --> 01:08:13,873
that, I create an environment where
you get to be your personal best.

1274
01:08:14,267 --> 01:08:19,007
So confronting actually is a tool
to help people be their best selves.

1275
01:08:19,249 --> 01:08:22,669
So that if I confront you in the
moment because you're doing something

1276
01:08:22,669 --> 01:08:26,479
that I, that we agreed you wouldn't
do, and I say, oh Rachel, I'm

1277
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:30,560
noticing you're doing that, then in a
healthy situation you say, ah, yeah.

1278
01:08:30,767 --> 01:08:32,387
Because we can't see our behaviors.

1279
01:08:32,387 --> 01:08:34,307
That's why, that's the
beauty of relationship.

1280
01:08:34,514 --> 01:08:35,984
We become mirrors for each other.

1281
01:08:36,234 --> 01:08:37,824
And we know this, don't we?

1282
01:08:37,824 --> 01:08:42,114
Like, I know that if I'm doing something
that's difficult, hurting people, hurting

1283
01:08:42,114 --> 01:08:46,929
myself, I want people to tell me, yet I
don't tell other people because, because

1284
01:08:46,929 --> 01:08:49,119
of the un uncomfortableness of it.

1285
01:08:49,689 --> 01:08:53,169
We need to finish, Joe, but would you
have three top tips that you would

1286
01:08:53,169 --> 01:08:57,279
recommend that people, do you know what,
what, what three things are will be

1287
01:08:57,369 --> 01:09:01,089
the most effective for people to start
doing or, or even stop doing right now?

1288
01:09:01,504 --> 01:09:07,589
Do practices to, uh, begin to deepen your
relationship with your own nervous system

1289
01:09:08,129 --> 01:09:12,689
and the wisdom of the body and the heart
to start listening to that information.

1290
01:09:12,689 --> 01:09:14,189
It's valuable information.

1291
01:09:14,489 --> 01:09:18,719
Start practicing on a regular basis
that when, that any situation you're

1292
01:09:18,719 --> 01:09:22,409
in to assess it and not judge it.

1293
01:09:22,669 --> 01:09:26,670
If you're driving, for instance,
uh, what an assessment is, gray

1294
01:09:26,670 --> 01:09:28,740
car passing me on the left.

1295
01:09:29,179 --> 01:09:30,889
Uh, my foot's on the gas.

1296
01:09:30,919 --> 01:09:32,419
My other foot's on the clutch.

1297
01:09:32,734 --> 01:09:35,929
And, and those are, that's an
assessment, a judgment is who does

1298
01:09:35,929 --> 01:09:37,609
that person think He is cutting me off?

1299
01:09:37,651 --> 01:09:40,171
Like the women that honked
at me very loudly in the

1300
01:09:40,171 --> 01:09:41,581
station car park this morning.

1301
01:09:41,581 --> 01:09:43,531
'cause I happened to just like nudge in.

1302
01:09:43,531 --> 01:09:43,831
Yeah,

1303
01:09:44,152 --> 01:09:47,512
so it's so simple that it's hard to get,
but that, because that's an important

1304
01:09:47,512 --> 01:09:51,682
aspect is that you begin to, you, you, you
take the judgment out of your vocabulary.

1305
01:09:52,049 --> 01:09:54,383
And, uh, to give people
the benefit of the doubt.

1306
01:09:54,633 --> 01:09:58,773
So assume good intent is that how you
would describe benefit of the doubt?

1307
01:09:58,947 --> 01:09:59,847
It's another way of saying it.

1308
01:09:59,847 --> 01:10:03,318
I don't use words like good or bad,
or right or wrong, and, and, and there

1309
01:10:03,318 --> 01:10:06,108
are many people where I, why would
I assume that they have good intent?

1310
01:10:06,168 --> 01:10:07,308
I've already seen that they, right.

1311
01:10:07,308 --> 01:10:10,818
So, but to give, to give them the
benefit of the doubt, it's on me, right?

1312
01:10:10,818 --> 01:10:11,298
It's on me.

1313
01:10:11,728 --> 01:10:14,315
And if you notice, a lot of
this is like, it's all on me.

1314
01:10:14,915 --> 01:10:16,715
It's not giving my power away.

1315
01:10:16,715 --> 01:10:18,695
it's not, it's not focusing on the other.

1316
01:10:19,055 --> 01:10:19,715
It starts here.

1317
01:10:20,045 --> 01:10:20,375
Yeah.

1318
01:10:20,405 --> 01:10:23,045
Because lots of people just come back
with, well, what if they don't listen?

1319
01:10:23,045 --> 01:10:23,705
What if they don't?

1320
01:10:23,705 --> 01:10:24,275
What if they don't?

1321
01:10:24,275 --> 01:10:25,985
But what you're saying
is it's all about you.

1322
01:10:25,985 --> 01:10:27,425
It's all about what, what you do.

1323
01:10:27,907 --> 01:10:31,567
And at the end of the day, if someone
isn't listening, denying everything,

1324
01:10:31,567 --> 01:10:35,706
whatever, then at least you've got a bit
more clarity about their thought processes

1325
01:10:35,796 --> 01:10:37,716
if you've genuinely asked, right?

1326
01:10:37,961 --> 01:10:41,891
There's always a fun moment in the
trainings that I'd I fondly call.

1327
01:10:41,891 --> 01:10:43,121
Yeah, but what if.

1328
01:10:43,495 --> 01:10:45,865
And that, and that's what you're, I
think that's what you're saying you

1329
01:10:45,865 --> 01:10:50,065
wanna get to is that, that that the,
the, the critical mind and the, and the

1330
01:10:50,065 --> 01:10:53,965
healthy critical mind begins to say,
yeah, but my mother-in-law, this would

1331
01:10:53,965 --> 01:10:59,275
never work with her or my boss, or my
14-year-old child, this would never work.

1332
01:10:59,755 --> 01:11:03,145
And that's fun, because that's your
nervous system going into a fight,

1333
01:11:03,145 --> 01:11:04,555
flight, freeze response, right?

1334
01:11:04,555 --> 01:11:10,401
It's a, it's a, and the answer to that
is simply, it's not that it won't work.

1335
01:11:11,091 --> 01:11:12,141
Sometimes it won't work.

1336
01:11:12,561 --> 01:11:14,211
It's just that it'll be harder work.

1337
01:11:14,564 --> 01:11:15,824
It's just more of a challenge.

1338
01:11:15,824 --> 01:11:20,534
And that's why the martial arts, if you a
martial artist at a certain point, wants

1339
01:11:20,534 --> 01:11:24,674
the more difficult challenge because it
calls them into a higher level of skill.

1340
01:11:24,924 --> 01:11:28,194
So it's, yeah, I get to, I get to
do black belt with my mother-in-law.

1341
01:11:28,539 --> 01:11:29,709
Exactly.

1342
01:11:29,709 --> 01:11:30,639
Exactly.

1343
01:11:30,744 --> 01:11:34,314
is such a mindset shift of like,
wanting to have confrontations because

1344
01:11:34,314 --> 01:11:37,374
you know, they're gonna deepen the
relationships and practicing this skills.

1345
01:11:37,854 --> 01:11:41,724
So maybe all of us, if we just try
and have one confrontation this week.

1346
01:11:42,056 --> 01:11:43,016
And, and, and then test.

1347
01:11:43,076 --> 01:11:45,956
Presumably, the more you do it,
the more it feels like a muscle

1348
01:11:45,956 --> 01:11:47,756
that you are learning to use.

1349
01:11:47,756 --> 01:11:49,016
It feels more natural.

1350
01:11:49,046 --> 01:11:50,336
We just do it more and more, right?

1351
01:11:50,721 --> 01:11:51,111
Yeah.

1352
01:11:51,111 --> 01:11:54,291
And I did this to say, if you're
gonna do that this week, don't

1353
01:11:54,291 --> 01:11:55,821
go with the black belt person.

1354
01:11:56,676 --> 01:11:57,006
Start

1355
01:11:57,321 --> 01:11:59,451
Start to do an easy one.

1356
01:11:59,451 --> 01:12:01,761
Do one, like, like, like,
like, like pole vaulting.

1357
01:12:01,761 --> 01:12:01,971
Right.

1358
01:12:01,971 --> 01:12:05,361
You know, only jump about, you
know, just one meter or something.

1359
01:12:05,361 --> 01:12:05,541
Then

1360
01:12:06,041 --> 01:12:07,541
That is very good advice.

1361
01:12:07,541 --> 01:12:08,231
Very good advice.

1362
01:12:08,231 --> 01:12:10,151
Joe, it's been wonderful to chat with you.

1363
01:12:10,151 --> 01:12:13,271
If people wanna find more about you,
how, how can they get a hold of you?

1364
01:12:13,630 --> 01:12:16,780
My website is um, joeweston.com.

1365
01:12:17,019 --> 01:12:19,689
Uh, my TEDx talk is A
Cure for Chronic Niceness.

1366
01:12:20,163 --> 01:12:23,743
My books are Mastering Respectful
Confrontation and Fierce

1367
01:12:23,763 --> 01:12:27,543
Civility, and you can get them
on Amazon and, and on my website.

1368
01:12:27,948 --> 01:12:31,098
And I'm on social media, I'm on
LinkedIn and uh, and Facebook.

1369
01:12:31,330 --> 01:12:31,750
That's great.

1370
01:12:31,750 --> 01:12:35,800
And it's Joe Weston, spelled
JOE, and then W-E-S-T-O-N.

1371
01:12:36,310 --> 01:12:39,070
Joe, thank you so much for being
with us today, and hopefully

1372
01:12:39,070 --> 01:12:40,030
we'll speak again soon.

1373
01:12:40,090 --> 01:12:40,930
is so much fun.

1374
01:12:40,930 --> 01:12:41,802
Let's keep doing it.

1375
01:12:43,304 --> 01:12:44,234
Thanks for listening.

1376
01:12:44,334 --> 01:12:48,794
Don't forget, you can get extra bonus
episodes and audio courses along with

1377
01:12:48,884 --> 01:12:53,714
unlimited access to our library of
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1378
01:12:53,794 --> 01:12:58,254
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1379
01:12:58,254 --> 01:13:01,224
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1380
01:13:01,597 --> 01:13:05,117
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