Hi Samantha. Welcome to the What to Read Next Podcast.

Hello. Thank you so much for having me.

So happy to have you here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Sure. So my name is Samantha and marrow is my debut novel. I'm also a literary agent where I, and I've been at George Borchard literary agency for the last 15 years.

That's amazing. So we're gonna talk about being an agent, be a debut author but also talk about Marrow and what was the source of inspiration, because I really love the pitch that your poses to share with us. I was like, oh my gosh, we need to talk about it because the first glance marrow doesn't sound like it. And I'm like, oh no, we gotta talk about this. So first things first, let's talk about Marrow and what is the elevator pitch? Because it's something, but obviously there's more to the story.

Yes. So the elevator pitch, I mean, to me, I feel like what Marrow is about is it's about longing. in the novel, UNO wants to be a mother. That's what she's longing for. But I think it's hoping to reckon with longing in a larger sense and sort of, what longing can lead us to do, how it can us places we never thought we'd go. How it can make us. Bargain with the universe. Me, I think there is there's a power in that kind of want. And that's what I was trying to get at in writing.

Yeah, I think Marow, it's about a reckoning of like going back home in some ways. Like after, at one point, not feeling the belonging and not part of it, and the decisions you make based on that. I was thinking about it in my own personal life. I had a traumatic childhood and a lot of different things, and I made the decision at 18. Laguna to, in her case she was kicked out, but I was like actually left the house and choices that we make based on those things that we're seeking. Like, I didn't have this part of things, so I'm seeking something out in a way to. Heal that child, that inner child that you had, and actually provide that. But unfortunately, life doesn't work that way. That you're just like, I'm gonna have a child and I'm gonna give them everything they want. They didn't have obviously there's twists and turns and I think that's part of uni's journey is like coming back home and try to re consider. Like figure it out and figure out that life doesn't work just because you launch something, it's gonna happen. I think they. They sell this bill of goods, like, if you want it, you're gonna get it.

Right.

And it, it doesn't work that way. And I think it segues with, a lot of, conversations about IVF fertility, ch childbearing, having a kid not wanting to have a kid. I'm, I chose to be child free, but. There's the other side of like, having a kid, having a relationship, being single mother of right choice. Doing a single, this being like what are the choices if freezing your ex? It's a lot of conversations 'cause we're trying to, in many ways, undo what we did when we had with our childhood and try to do it differently. But then life doesn't work the way we want it to work,

yes. No, I think that's, I think that's absolutely right.

Yeah. So talk to us about like your take on in the, like the research when you were actually building the story, what was the process like for this?

Yeah, so, oh, part of what. Led me to writing marrow and led me to writing about infertility in general, was my own experience with infertility. My husband and I tried for almost two years to have a baby on our own. It was not happening. And I found that really challenging for a number of reasons. The hardest part obviously is that I want a baby and I don't have one. But I think also. Just what you were saying about how you have this idea that, almost, it's like if you want something and you work hard enough, you can have it. And I think also for women, there's this idea that like, becoming a mother is your birthright. Like

yeah.

owed this or something by the universe. This is like what your body was meant to do. And wanted there to be something I could do to, fix the situation to be able to like, will my body into doing what I wanted it to do. And I ended up experimenting with a whole. A bunch of things. Things that were more and less on a spectrum of quote unquote science. And and then I, and I think over the course of that research, which wasn't really research for the novel, it was research for my life. I learned a lot. And then I think I also, I think I saw the dark side of some of that. I think there's a lot of power in. trying things that are not part of, western medicine and with things and seeing what could help and and what doesn't. But I think there's also a lot there that is meant to be predatory that is to take advantage of people and women in particular, in desperate situations. And I saw a lot of that in my own, research for my life. And so I think I was also inspired by that and wanting to sort of take that on at least in a fictional sense.

Yeah I can relate to it. I think it's a ways, it's not just fertility. I think it's, wellness is a, it's a big business. Idea as a purpose, idea of meaningful life and what you're supposed to be doing. And, we it goes in the spectrum. And like I experienced similar things and I, and not in the infertility space, but I've experienced it in the wellness space and the mental illness and the healing your gender child. And a lot of it, some stuff work and some stuff did not work and some stuff was snake oil and some stuff was actually like really powerful ch shifts. But there's. Somehow we're, we are bombarded with the idea that if it doesn't work, there must be something wrong with you. And we internalized that into like, I'm the problem. But when something happens, something works. You, the other person is the one who was the miracle. And so it's like the disconnect. 'cause it was like, you are the problem, you're hurting yourself, you're gaslighting yourself. And yet at the same time, like what's the solution? And again, we're like, we are, Todd believes that are. Not real, like it, there's must be something wrong with you. It's like, but that's not true. And it's learning to trust your intuition, your inner voice to say like, no, but that's not the facts. Those are emotional. And those are other people marketing that they're selling you something that they want you to be, they might be predatory or not. And I think. It. It's helpful to hear other people's voices and other people's experiences, but also understanding that your experience might be unique and that's part of the journey.

Yeah. I also, I've always been sort of fascinated by cults of all kinds.

Yeah.

and I found that I find that thinking interesting and I feel like a lot of insular communities, no matter like what they're about, it feels like some of that thinking, that group think starts appearing. In the infertility space. When I was going through it, a lot of, some, place I turned was social media. And there are like infertility influencers, for lack of a better word. I mean, I don't think they, I don't think a lot of these women are doing it to like monetize their own struggles. It's not so much about that, as I'm sure it is an outlet for. Their pain. But as a result, I feel like when you start following enough people, and some of them have like really a lot of followers and they, you start realizing like connections between people and who you know, that they know each other and that there is, and that, a lot of the same things repeated. And certain sources become, sort of, I don't know, authority figures, like authority, voices that are not doctors, that are not, and I get that it's complicated because part of the reason that emerges is because there's such a frustration with the doctors, who are disregarding women and disregarding their pain and maybe, not listening and maybe there are other solutions and et cetera, et cetera. But I just found, I find that, I don't know that.

It is.

It that group think emerges in these spaces. Yeah.

we're seeing it. We're seeing it also in the wellness space. I have an interview with Amy Roca. She did a whole non-fiction about the wellness industry and specifics, and we see that over and like not just in the fiction space and the cult cold space and influencers. I think I just had a conversation about therapist, about this and it's like, there's something to be said about that. You're supposed to have a character arc. You're supposed to have a, like an inciting incident that you gotta. Story we monetize story time on TikTok. We monetize the idea of like, I had something to tell you and my story is value and my story is valid, and stuff like that. And there's power in that, but there's also power and be like actually discernment of like, is it really true? Is this the real thing? Because we see that group think in the anti-vaxxer space, or we see in like innate spaces or like. Yeah. Like, oh, this is, we saw this and we trust this charismatic person who's telling us this story. And then it's like, it's the gospel and it's like actually take a step side and it's not. It is not easy to be the person who's discerning because we, as human beings, we wanna belong. We want to be part of the group. We, it doesn't, there's safety in numbers. It's not safe to be alone. So it's like how do you interact with this world and how do you interact in this post pandemic world where it is post capitalist, where it's a lot of the things, our technology has improved, but at the same time we're also. We are bombarded with so much information and everyone feels that they have, their story's just as valid. It's the most valuable story in the world, and yes, I think main character energy is probably what defines the 2020, awesome. So let's talk about your journey. 'cause you were, when did you get started writing this book? Like was it pre pandemic or was it always, in the back of your head? Like maybe there's a story here to tell. I know, it's interesting 'cause you're an agent, so you have the other side experience so.

Yeah, I mean I've been writing for as long as I can remember honestly. I wrote in college, those were mostly not very good short stories. I was trying to write a novel. I speaks to my fascinated by cults, a novel about Jonestown for years after college that didn't ever really. Quite come together in the way that I wanted did not fight a home. And then in. In, like in the midst of the pandemic was when I was going through infertility. I had already started working with my agent for the Jonestown novel, which clearly wasn't going to sell. Which in retrospect is a good thing. But at the time I think I was not only like looking for a place to, to process what I was going through with IVF but also looking for. Something new to think about and work

Yeah.

that wasn't this other book. And so I could stop thinking about whether or not like it would find a home.

Yeah. I love this idea of like, I sometimes we have to set aside projects. Again, it's, yeah, like we're supposed to have one way solution, one thing, and the reality is the longing. You, sometimes the project doesn't match where we are in the trends, and you probably know this is an agent. It's a lot of it, it's a business when it comes to selling books and so maybe not right now. Maybe we reconfigure it. Maybe it goes back to the drawing, never sees the light of day or maybe reconfigures and there might be discussions. It might be revisiting for those novels. You know when the trend is right, when the time is right,

yes. Yeah. Yeah, you never know. And then I think a lot of times, honestly, I mean, this is true for me and I know it's been true for other writers I worked with, which is that. Sometimes you just

Yeah.

too. Like if it, and then you're like, I am. I think, I'm really grateful. Marrow is my first book. I'm really proud of it. I mean, I was proud of, I was proud of the genital novel, but I think mostly it was like a learning experience of how to write a

Yeah.

I didn't get my MFAI, I didn't, my schooling was really like, I. Being an agent and editing with my clients and seeing their genius on the page.

Yeah.

and so, so there was a lot of like learning involved in that first book and I think I think it sort of had to go that way for me.

Yeah. So talk to us about being an agent. What does it look like? Because I know there's a lot of questions and you can talk a little bit just an idea like, people may be curious what it's like, as an agent, make the decision and. How much, how do you get, I know there's a lot of question how to get an agent. We don't wanna go there, but like what is actually an agent? Because I think it's the most, it's one of the most important relationships for a writer to have because they're gonna be the advocates for selling the book and actually helping them prebi, like it's the most important relationship. In some ways. The publisher can come and go, but the agent typically stays long term and.

I think that's a really important point. Yeah. I mean, think it is probably like the longest last thing. I mean, you don't know, like some, sometimes writers do work with their same editor for like the, like of their career. I think that's becoming less and less common.

Yeah.

but it's not entirely impossible. But yeah, I mean, hopefully you are working with your agent for the length of your career. I, yeah, I think it's, I mean, trying to think of where to start. I. Well, I joined the agency pretty quickly out of college. Ended, I, I knew I wanted to be in the book publishing. I thought after some internships I wanted to do editing. I loved that you still got to work really closely with writers. You still got to do editorial work, which I wanted to do. But that it was a little bit more like entrepreneurial. It was more about like, seeking out the things you wanted to find the things you wanted to work on than it was about like waiting around and hoping the right thing like appeared in your inbox. And there was a little bit more freedom to it. I mean, freedom on a practical sense because it's, most agencies are, there are some big corporate agencies, but a lot of them like ours are smaller. Smaller places, there's less corporate culture, less fewer rules but also freedom and a sense of like what you wanna work on. As an editor, by and large editors are hired to specific books. They have a mandate that's not universally true, but most of the time and they might. a submission for a book that they would love, but you know, it's not what they were brought on to do, or it's not something that their imprint publishes well, and so they, for that reason, they would have to pass. Whereas I think I've always had a lot more freedom to take on the projects that speak to me. And my list has, as a result, been fairly eclectic. I mean, only do adult fiction and nonfiction. So I don't, I can't speak to. It's not so eclectic that it involves like every genre ever. But within those categories I've done I've done memoirs, I've done history, I've done serious works of investigative journalism and politics and fiction that runs the spectrum from things that are like, very literary, very, i've award winners, all that sort of stuff. And then books that are on the more commercial spectrum books that are hitting the New York Times bestseller list and being chosen for book clubs and all of that. So I think it's, think it left a lot of, created a lot of freedom to work on things that, that I loved which was what spoke to me.

I love this. So let's talk about submission because I actually feel like that's a word that was thrown around when we were like charact. Where in charact others come, like my book a submission. It's waiting. It depends on what if bracket sells and what doesn't. What does submission looks like from an agent standpoint point of view.

Yeah, so for me with the submission is. Largely for me, it's dictated by when the project is ready. Because usually I, I do work pretty hands on editorially with writers, so we are working, editing the manuscript. It depends on how much it needs to get done and how much time the writer has. To edit. Some people are able to drop everything and revise for the next three months and the book comes back transformed and other people need like a year, two years. It really depends what they have going on in their life how much they're juggling. So when the project is ready when taken it as far as the two of us can on our own. And I do believe strongly that, especially for debut fiction writers. Just think we're. The bar is really high, and we're not looking to give anybody a reason to say no. So if there's anything we, between the two of us could think that could be addressed, like I'm trying to get us to there. So, but when the book is ready. I am creating a submission list. I've usually, I've been talking the book up at all my lunches and coffees and everything else that I'm having with editors all the time. Seeing friends. I'm in this industry 15 years, so, chatting, talking about the book with people I think would like it. And hopefully I have a good idea of who's, who would be right for it. Both within publishing houses, the imprints, and also like specific editors. I like to run that list by writers in case they have, some folks have been talking with editors at MFA programs or whatever, or they have folks that they are their dream editor, that like, they publish the last like 10 books they publish that the writer loves and they just really wanna make sure their book is seen by this person. So, try to make that process pretty collaborative. I will write my pitch and share that with the author. Make that feel collaborative, make sure it's something that feels like, feels good to them, feels like a good of their work. And then when it's time for submission I, we send it out. We. We can see usually I have a lot of, prep calls before, so writers understand, the submission process at first, I think could be a little anticlimactic because you do all this work, it goes out and then there's just kind of like nothing for a while.

Yeah.

Really depends. It could be a, a matter of days or it could be a matter of weeks. In some cases it's been a matter of months and the, the books will sell and does great. It really depends. But I think that part. I can feel pretty I mean, on my end I know it's very very anxious time. But eventually, hopefully it means, it gets a little bit more exciting.

Yeah, so a lot of it's relationship building from my understanding, like sense of like connecting, knowing, selling. You're essentially selling the book, like as a someone who's like, Hey, this might be something of interest. I know you're, this is what you're working on and be a matchmaker for the author to find. So I would have this question 'cause I feel like readers will have this as someone who's like, I wanna spend all my time reading. How much reading do you get done? Like realistically, is it all the time or is it actually like, you actually have to be more mindful and you have other tasks, obviously the relationship building, the talking, the meeting with the author writers. So obviously what's the realistic all the time reading,

I think I honestly would say, I mean, definitely not all the time because I do have a lot of other tasks.

Yes.

A lot of it. There's submissions, there's contracts

No.

there's royalty statements to review and pay out. There's, just a lot of my job is honestly just

Yeah.

To

Yeah.

me about a variety of things. There's a lot of advocacy work, once, even once the book sells, how in the loop a writer needs me to be in terms of like the editorial process how in the loop I, if depending on the publicity of marketing, what I need to like, step in and help with brainstorm, all that sort of stuff. So I'm continuing to do a, honestly, even post submission is probably more of my advocacy work than the beginning. Is a little bit more of a salesperson role. and so I would say, I mean, I think I would say, I think a lot of agents do this differently. I'm somebody who likes to do things sort of like in little bites. So I read probably like between 50 to a hundred pages a day of things. And that's about every day. I would say. Other people I think read, maybe they don't read for a few days and then they spend like all Friday reading or something. I think that might be how some people, at least that's how some friends I know work.

Yeah, so it's like a reader like, well, like, the readers that we're seeing now, they probably are reading more than we are reading in this space of creating, doing the work and stuff like that. So I think it's, they deal, I think there's romanticizing as we talk about, like they deal, like read all day, get a job publishing, and the reality is I've talked to plenty of publisher professionals and they're like, we read. Less in some ways. 'cause we have all these other areas where advocacy. We're project managing. We're selling books, we're talking about books, we're preparing pitches, we're preparing ways to find a way to the book to sell or find new strategy and not takes a lot of energy and time and concentration that you may not have to read for fun. You have work reading, which is different than fun reading.

Yeah, I mean, I was gonna say, I feel like the, also the big difference is that it's even those, 50 to a hundred pages that I'm reading a day, they aren't pleasure reading. They're usually, I'm reading pretty deeply. Most of it is editorial reading. If I will read, I get and I will read the sample pages and those are a little bit faster, but the manuscripts I'm reading from clients I'm editing those like

Yeah.

50 pages I'm reading a day. It takes a long time.

Yes, it does. Takes a long time. And I think it's, I think when we start thinking about, on new authors or people who are looking to get an agent, I think it's important to have someone that you feel comfortable going and talking to and have a relationship. And I think that's what matters is less about the, how shiny the object is. It's like, yes, like I'll represent you, but like, do you feel comfortable going to this person and asking questions about. Royalties asking questions about editorial because that's your job as an advocate. And so they need to know, like, do, what's the story? If a writer's like, Hey, I have life situations happening, I cannot make the deadline the agent is gonna be like trying to massage the message. And so having that open relationship is such an important part of this process.

I think that's true and I think having somebody you feel I don't know, like you vibe with it feels a little bit like

Yeah. Yeah.

Just somebody who you feel like is really gonna be in your corner. Somebody you feel like you can trust, somebody I also feel like is gonna be responsive. I know that comes up a lot with writers especially the writers I have taken on who have maybe had a book already out in the world are you gonna be from this person or are you only hearing from their assistant? Are they gonna be the one, reading your book and providing notes, or is that gonna be somebody else? Are they gonna be. Answering your email, are you gonna have to be writing like three or four follow ups to get a reply? Those are all important things too.

Yeah, thank you for engaging me with some of those ending questions and it's rare that I get to see an agent in this at this point, so it is exciting. I know we have plenty of authors and listeners and readers who listen to this podcast and so I think this is a great, conversation.

Wonderful.

this question I went to and to read with like some book recommendations as one to ask. 'cause the whole point is like, what to read next. Like what do I read after, finish tomorrow. So what books do you recommend our listeners to pick up? And I, it doesn't have to be favorite books, it doesn't have to be related to genre. It can be something different. It can be something that you're rich for pleasure. But just give us a couple book recommendations.

Yeah. So I would say, I mean, some of the, my favorite books that I've read totally for pleasure year are, mcConaughey is wild, dark shore. Really anything she's written might be her biggest fan girl. I just think she's incredible. I've loved everything from migrations. I think once they were, wolves is my, maybe my favorite book ever. But I really loved Wild Duck Shore. I just thought it was stunning. And it's such a masterclass and tension building and how to like breadcrumb in a mystery. It's so great. I highly recommend it. I also really loved Annie Hartman's the Road to Tender Hearts, which if you like Kevin Wilson. I think Annie is a great a great next, next writer to check out. Her book is so funny and joyful. I think it wrestles with real questions and real struggles, but at the end it's just also just like a really fun read that also feels really meaningful At the same time I love Carrie Collins House, a Beth, which I came out this summer. It's. So cool. I just feel like everything she does in this book is so cool and edgy and boundary pushing while also being like really character driven and beautiful. And Meghan MJ MU's next book is not out yet, but a Guardian thief. I think mega is a genius. I've absolutely loved her first book and. I, I, when it comes out, I feel like

Yeah.

should rush to buy it. The last one I'll say is if you do like Marrow and you haven't had the chance to read Jess Chan's School for Good Mothers it is brilliant and. I think would probably appeal to, I would hope my, anybody like that book would read like Marrow. Read Jess men's novel on submission many years ago. Was not lucky enough to work with her, but I have been devastated over that ever since. And the book is just absolutely, I don't know. Stunning. It's so good.

Oh my gosh, I love these recommendations and I love that you gave us, 'cause you're debut. So we hope to see more books from you. But now that we write your book, you're like, okay, what do I read next? I think you gave us like the next one to go back to. So then we can wait for your next book, as many more to come. So, Samantha, tell us, we're gonna find you online.

I am, my website is samantha she.com and I am also on Instagram sb. She.

Thank you, Samantha, for being in the shower.

Thank you so much. It was so fun to be here.

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