Eugene Bach Audio

Speaker: [00:00:00] The Missional Life Podcast, inspiring Kingdom-minded believers around the world to live the mission of God in their lives.

Dan: All right. Welcome back to Mission Light Podcast. Today we have Eugene Bach on the show. Eugene is the leading voice in the back j Jerusalem movement, helping mobilize and support Chinese House Church missionaries to minister across the 10 40 window and intonations between China and Jerusalem. He's the author, strategist, host of the Be Jerusalem Podcast and a bridge between the underground Chinese church and global partners . He's a man who is passionate about seeing the gospel penetrate regions, often close to traditional missions.

Eugene, welcome to the show.

Amanda: Welcome.

Eugene: Thank you so much. It's it's, it's really nice to be here and it's, it's such an honor to be, to be invited and to meet you guys. It's been great. Thank you. Thanks for the invitation.

Dan: Absolutely. Hey, let's just jump [00:01:00] right in. For listeners who might not be familiar with back to Jerusalem and the movement with that, what is the heart behind it and its vision, and then how did you personally get connected to this movement and sense God calling you into it?

Eugene: Yeah, it's kind of a strange name, right? I mean, back to Jerusalem sounds like, I mean, especially since we live in a, in a day and age where. It, the, the shorter you can make a name or if you can just have it like one word or you know, one syllable that's a much better marketing tool. Back to Jerusalem is not good for marketing, to be honest.

But it is the name of the vision. And I didn't learn about it until the late nineties. When I was living and working in California. I was working for a police department in Southern California, in San Marcos, California. When I met a Chinese evangelist for the very first time by the name of Brother Yun, he's got a li he is got a book out about his life called the Heavenly Man.

And I was able to meet together with him and he shared with me this vision of China. A few months later, I found [00:02:00] myself living in China, working together with him and a lot of the underground house churches there in China. And they had this vision because they were, they, they've been experiencing the world's largest revival.

I mean, we're seeing thousands come to Christ in China every single day. And as they are coming out of this revival, they have a desire to see the return of Christ. And Christ said very clearly to his disciples in Matthew 24 14, that when this good news of the kingdom is preached to all the nations, then the end will come.

Right? So they want to see the return of Jesus Christ. So they are focused on reaching the unreached. And right now we have nine-tenths of the unreached people groups living between. China and Jerusalem, that little window between China and Jerusalem. And so all of the nations, all of the people groups all of the unreached peoples, they're kind of right there in this little barrel that's really easy to target and focus on.

So the back to [00:03:00] Jerusalem vision is the idea of taking the gospel from China to all of the nations in between China and Jerusalem, going from nation to nation, village to village, person to person, completing the great commission. That basically is the, the back to Jerusalem vision in a nutshell.

Dan: Wow. So you mentioned about people coming to Jesus and we don't always hear that in the West, right?

We always think, they're so persecuted, man. There's not a lot of believers. Did you have that any kind of. Up to date statistic of potentially, you know, conversions or people coming to Christ in China and in those closed countries, as well as a potential number of believers that are in China itself.

Eugene: Yes. I mean, I, I can give out numbers all day and they're always gonna be refuted. So do not be surprised if you get flooded with Chinese experts on what the real numbers are. However, I will tell you that I've been living and working in China for the last 27 years or more. [00:04:00] What I have learned is that the biggest oxymoron in the English language that I know of is Chinese expert.

I can tell you, I knew more about China my first year in China than I do now. In fact, the longer I live in China, the less I know.

Speaker 4: But

Eugene: I put out a book not too long ago called China and In Time Prophecy. And in, in that book, I actually lay out how I arrive at the numbers that I share.

And of course, as the, the further we get in time away from that book, the further we get away from the actual base of the data that I share. But it's still pretty roughly the same with anywhere between 28 to 30,000 people coming to Christ every single day with about a million a month and the number being anywhere between.

140 million believers and 170 million believers in China today. That is quite the claim because as you know, if you look at most statistics in the world today, it shows the growth [00:05:00] of Islam just skyrocketing and Christianity kind of plateauing or nose diving.

The reason why that is, is that the areas where we're seeing the most Christian growth today is not being monitored. You know, the best numbers that we have are generally in Christian nations or the west, if you will. There we actually keep a lot of data and we see this, you know, increase of Islam mainly because of migration patterns.

But what is not being reported is just 100 years ago. This is not very long ago, 1925, just after World War I, 90% of the world's Christian body lived in North and South America and Western Europe. Today, more than 60% of the world's Christian body live in Asia. Africa and the Middle East. That is a massive change of demographics that the world really isn't watching or staying on pace with.

And [00:06:00] I work in a lot of other countries together with the Chinese as well. So I spend a lot of time in different nations in Africa that are closed to the gospel in Asia, that are closed to the gospel in the Middle East that are closed to the gospel. And those numbers of new believers are not accurately tracked.

So for instance even though numerically we're seeing the world's largest revival inside of China percentage wise, we're seeing massive growth that even outpaces China in places like Nepal, Iran Iran might be having one of the world's largest revivals of any Islamic nation on earth. Those numbers are just not clear how many people are believers.

I mean, and that makes sense, right? When we're looking at, you know, going back to your original question about how many believers are, what the situation is inside of China. Here's the thing. Anybody that tries to get their hands around the numbers inside of China, the reason why there's such big variations is because we don't even know what the population.[00:07:00]

Is in China people say between 1.3 to 1.6 billion people. That gap is the entire population of the United States. So, you know, this is our population in China, give or take a, an America or two when it comes to the population. And why is that? Well, for so many decades, China's had a one child policy and because of that, many people have been, have been born without having a birth certificate, been born at home without any record of their birth.

So China simply doesn't know how many people they have. And they certainly don't know how many Christians there are. So a lot of the numbers that I give are ones that I have myself watched as well as a lot of the, the research that's been out there and kind of bringing that together. I spent a lot of time digging in.

And when it comes to like the total number one of the best research papers that you can find out there has actually been done by Purdue University. And Purdue [00:08:00] University says that by this year, 2025, you're talking about 150 million believers. And, and we would say that's, that's quite accurate.

Dan: Wow.

Wow. When you threw out the number, the 140 to 170 million, let's just play with that 170 million. If we just say that the US population is 340 ish million, that's half the population of the United States. Right? That's a crazy amount of believers and that are. Just not talked about that are unnoticed, so to speak, that, we're not even sure that are out there, but that have come to Christ. Is there a certain concentration within China or in a region within China that's seeing the most growth that you're aware of?

Eugene: Yeah, so there's a couple of places. So recently most of this I've, I've written a couple of books. One is called I Stand With Christ. There's another one that's called Kidnapped by a Cult. Those two books were written with pastors that are very well known inside of China. They may not be known outside of China.

One is a guy by the name of Jang Liang. Another one [00:09:00] is another one, a guy by that we call Pastor Shin. Pastor Shin and j Liang. Both of those pastors together just at our churches alone have over 20 million believers and they come out of Nan province. So Hanen is kind of center, right smack dab in the middle of traditional China.

When I say traditional China, I'm kind of removing the western part of China. China's not a monolithic nation. I know a lot of people when they think of China, they think of, you know, Jackie Chan and everybody looks like Jackie Chan, but that's simply not the case. I Northeastern China is as different from Southwestern China as Russia is from England.

Northern China is as different from Southern China as Sweden is from Italy. Different language, different facial features, different culture, even different laws. I mean, China in and of itself has, you know, so many confusing things that are legal, let alone the things that we don't even know about. So for instance, if you look at pe, many people that [00:10:00] are listening to your podcast, they may have traveled to Taiwan.

Taiwan's considered to be a part of China, and yet it's not a part of China. How does that work then? Or maybe they've traveled to Hong Kong? Hong Kong is owned by China and yet different banking system, different currency, different politics. I mean every different border controls. As an American or Westerner, you can fly into Hong Kong visa free three months not in China.

You have to have a visa as soon as you touch down inside of China. And then you have Macau, you know, again, different currency, different government, different border control. Then you have Tibet, different laws, different, different policies, different border control. So China, even though we consider it to be one country, it really is so many different countries inside.

And right smack dab in the middle, kind of the Indiana of of, of China, if you will, is a place called Hanan Province. And Hanan Province is just exploded with [00:11:00] believers and and so you have Hannan Province and the Neighboring Bait is another province that has really seen explosion, and that's a place called Anhui.

So those two places have just been the powerhouses of the revival for the last three decades. Back a little further is a place called Shandong Province, which is right on the east coast, northeast coast of China. Shandong Province has all of more, the more recent history, you know, 1920s to 1950s type of revivals taking place there.

And then you have one city that kind of stands out from all the other cities. This one is a fun one because it's a city called Wino and win. Joe's considered to be the Jerusalem of China, and Wino has a church for every square kilometer. Some estimates are as as high as more than one third of the entire population of the city.

Is Christian and, and people are just aren't [00:12:00] clear on how did this all happen? There hasn't been a lot of people even do the research on it. We just did a book not too long ago. We, we published it called The Lame Shall Take The Prey. It's about the very first missionary there. His name was George Sto.

Amazing story. Just really, really quick, 'cause this is such a cool story. George Sto wanted to go to Cambridge and he lost his leg as a, as a teenager in a farming accident. And so Cambridge turned, Cambridge, turned him down. I went to the university. I went through the archives. I found his, his rejection letter.

And so he was just in depression and he thought, you know, what am I gonna do with my life? I can't really farm. I can't really work. The only thing he thought he could do was be a teacher, and that's why he wanted to go to Cambridge. And then one night. He's in a church service and this crazy guy from China comes in by the name of Hudson Taylor, probably one of the most well-known missionaries in in China history.

So [00:13:00] Hudson Taylor begins to share with the church that night how missionaries are needed in the more rural areas of China. And George raises his hand, says I want to go. And he is kind of scoffed at by everybody, including Hudson Taylor himself and Hudson Taylor asks him, what makes you think you're going to be a missionary with one leg to China?

And he said, well. Because those with two legs aren't going, I guess I must. And so he went to China, hobbled his way, became the very first missionary to win Joe. And wanted to start a school, wanted to preach the gospel, and everybody thought he was a demon 'cause they'd never seen such a pale person.

And because of his red fiery hair, they were like, yeah, this guy was straight from hell. Like his hair represents fire. This is a demon. He's come to haunt us. So they went to attack him and the story goes that he actually removed his wooden leg and like used it [00:14:00] as a weapon to guard himself, like hitting people with his leg.

And, and he's just disappointed again because nobody was listening to his message. But this is where it gets really powerful. The only person that really listened to him was a young orphan boy that just found this redheaded Scotsman, fascinating. Wherever he went, the little orphan boy went, and the little Orphan Boy became an an, a powerful believer and an amazing evangelist, and started preaching and people came to Christ by, by the tens of thousands.

And and that was the beginning of what we see today with the most highly concentrated number of Christians in one city in China today, the city of Weill.

Dan: Wow, that's amazing. When you share these numbers about believers in China, when you read the book, the Heavenly Man, one of the big things he talks about is this distinction between sort of the official Christian Church in China, and the [00:15:00] government condoning it, allowing it to, exist and then sort of this hidden underground church.

Are those numbers combined, of those two together, are those official numbers? Can you speak to that and then go into how are people finding out about Jesus? Because it's actually, almost illegal to begin to proselytize and to share your faith in that.

So how does this all. Happen?

Eugene: Yeah, great question. The numbers that I give do include the official church. The numbers that the official church give do not include the house church. The house church. Far outnumbers the number of people in the official church. I work together with both. I work with the official church and the unofficial church.

The challenge that you have with the unofficial church. And the reason why we're, we call them the House, church or the underground church, is because they do not abide by the law when it comes to their gatherings, when it comes to their teachings, when it comes to their evangelistic efforts. The underground church is not allowed to [00:16:00] do certain things.

So one of the things that they're not allowed to do is they're not allowed to teach their children under the age of 18 about any Christianity at all. That is, that is probably the most dangerous work in all of China, is children's work. So anything that you do with children is extremely illegal and extremely dangerous.

And if you're caught, they will prosecute with the full power of the law, because that is something that they protect a lot. They, they start the communist training from the age of three. So they have what they call moral classrooms. And every student has to spend time in the moral classroom where they learn the, the foundations of Marxism, which in essence is atheism.

And so they, they, they start the brainwashing at a very, very young age, and they don't want any competition. With what they're teaching. That's why children are not allowed. They, they know the power of teaching a children teaching children the gospel. So that is a big difference. So [00:17:00] because the church has to stay or they don't abide by those rules, they stay underground as, as it, you know, as we describe it, they're not actually underground in any way.

It's not a subterranean type of church effort. It just means that they're illegal, they operate illegally. They're the black market church, if you will. Not official at all. Not registered anywhere at all, nor are the believers registered. The other, the other challenge that we have is that Christians are only allowed to meet in registered locations, registered churches.

These registered churches are highly monitored by the government. And I'm using very generic language here because what I say is the general idea, but it's different from place to place church to church, depending on where you're at, whether you're in Guang Jo or Beijing or Shanghai or Shiang. It depends on where you're at.

The churches vary. The pastors vary. The rules vary. The, the enforcement of those rules vary. So the [00:18:00] China's as as different from one place to the other. As, as you know, one country would be from another. There's also some teachings that the government says that you have to abide by. That the underground church simply cannot abide by.

So for instance, by law, you have to teach that that there's no such thing as a dead man coming back to life. You cannot teach about a virgin birth because science has proven that dead men don't come back to life and that virgins don't have babies. So those two elements you cannot teach.

The other thing you can't teach is that the idea of a second coming because God forbid China not be the best place in the world to live. So there is no other place that would be heaven better than living in China itself. So those three tenets of faith already, you know, you remove those, you're, as a Christian, you, you really don't have too much left to stand on in your faith.

So Underground House church believers will not, they don't register the, those, their churches [00:19:00] because they don't abide by those beliefs. Now, I've worked with a lot of official pastors that do not. Abide by those rules that do not adhere to that, that theology. However, you have to be really, really careful because there's some trickery that takes place.

One of the things that communists have learned very strongly is how to use language in language for communists is or is, is very, very important. And so for instance, you might meet someone that is a member of the Communist Party and in charge of the church, which is a big problem for many Christians because in order to be a member of the Communist Party, you have to be a declared atheist.

They, they don't allow religious people into the party, so you have to sign and take an oath of atheism. And then they put people that are atheists in charge of the official church in China. And I'm talking about the hierarchy not individual pastors, but the people that are above, over the pastors.[00:20:00]

And then people have questions about that. So when they talk to these individuals, you know, a lot of Christians feel good when they hear these communists kind of saying language that they can relate to saying things like, you know, I believe in Jesus and. He lives in me. And because he lives in me, he will live forever.

And a lot of Christians, they hear that and they're like, wow, that is amazing. We are on the same page. We are, you know, fellow believers, but not knowing that Chinese are using the same language just with different meaning behind it. So for instance, if your father passes away and he's running a ministry and you take over that ministry, people will say your father's legacy lives on in you as you carry.

They're using it in the same terminology. They're not denying that, you know, you're doing the work of Christ, but they are denying without saying so that Christ is still alive and that he actually lives in you. That it's, it's used more as [00:21:00] metaphorical language. And so sometimes that can be a bit confusing.

You know, the differences between the official church and the unofficial church. That's just a, a really quick, you know, Chinese church 1 0 1, if you will.

Dan: Wow. That's amazing.

So let's go deeper on that. Let's talk about the underground church, right? You said it's not a subterranean sort of group. They're not meeting underground, but like, I think in the West we don't fully understand what that is. So what does the underground church look like in China? How does one find out about it?

How do they meet? Can you share what you can about what that looks like in China?

Eugene: Yeah. You know, I did a book a couple years ago called The Underground Church, where I try to take all the mystery out of what that means. It's kind of a Mickey Mouse, if you will, outline of very, very simple how it started, who is behind it, who are kind of the pioneers of the Chinese Underground House Church, what they're doing today, and what their vision is [00:22:00] for the future, especially as it pertains to back to Jerusalem.

But right now, the, and, and, and the term Underground House church has kind of changed over time a little bit because it means something a little bit different than what it did in the nineties. In the early two thousands. Now we have a, a, a pretty modern nation on the eastern seaboard of China. And so a lot of the, a lot of the Christians that I work together with today, the Underground House Church is a group of believers that simply meet in homes like a home group or a Bible study that you, your listeners are probably familiar with.

Most of the meetings that I attend today are taking place in businesses. So whether it's in offices or whether it's actually in someone's business, they're, they're actually, they're building. Sometimes we meet in cubicles, sometimes we meet in factories, sometimes we meet in in small office spaces.

One of the most amazing kind [00:23:00] of underground house church bible schools that I have seen is kind of sandwiched in, in a, in a factory with a, with. A very, very common practice that I'm seeing more and more where a business owner will have a a factory where he's got a lot of the, the production taking place on the ground floor or the lower floors, and then like some production taking place on the top floors as well.

And then the middle floor is being used for bible schools and, and outreach ministry and, and all of their activities kind of being hidden by the operations that are taking place above and below the, those meetings. This is, this is probably one of the best visuals that I can give you of today's modern day underground house church.

Sometimes we do meet in, in subterranean areas. So for instance, there's there's a bible school that I meet with on a regular basis that meets inside of a brewery. [00:24:00] Where the whole brewery is underground for you know, air temperature, keeping the air temperature at a constant without using a lot of energy.

Anybody that stores wine or deals in anything where things have to, you know, stay cool. They know that when you go underground, you're able to use the earth itself as insulation to maintain. If you think about going down in your basement, for instance, your basement, if you have a basement in your home, you'll notice that it's a, it's just naturally cooler than the rest of your, of your home.

Well, the same thing happens to a lot of breweries where they, where they will use underground facilities to maintain a constant cool temperature for their production. So I have been in those environments as well, underground in caves having, having long-term meetings or Bible schools. And so the underground house church really takes place anywhere that life takes place anywhere where everyday people are [00:25:00] engaging already in family or business or just everyday life.

And and, and that's where they have their church as well. One of the most amazing things that I feel is a direct contributor. To the increase of the gospel inside of, inside of China is that everything is connected to everything. And that's kind of an Asian thing. That's a Middle Eastern thing, that's an African thing already where in, in the west oftentimes we have this dichotomy, right?

This idea that family life and work life, we keep separate. We, you know, we, we, we, we have the division of church and state, right? Where we, we divide those two legally. And, and in our walls we say that, you know, we have to keep church and state religious activity and, and, and official government activity separate.

But in, in the church in China, everything is connected. Everything you don't, you don't disconnect [00:26:00] your business from your ministry. You don't disconnect your ministry from your family. You don't disconnect your family. So all of that is just like one big ball of yarn where you just don't know where one part ends and where the other part begins because it's all kind of together and because it's together, there is this community.

Of life where, where things are just meshed together. And you can see that in in any business that you walk in, in China, which is a little bit different than in the West. If you walk into a business in China, you'll often see kind of the, the front facade where customers can be engaged and you can be helped and assisted.

But if you go towards the back, you're bound to find the, the people that are running the store, their children doing their homework in the back of the shop. A dinner is being cooked and served and the the family will do rotations, you know, and eat at the back there. There's no division. You can't say no, please don't talk about business at the [00:27:00] table.

'cause the table is the business and the food is being served while you're doing business. And, you know, I can, I can do business with somebody, you know, while they're eating their noodles in the back of the store. So, and, and we see this also, maybe, maybe the better way to paint it is just by looking at the way that we eat our food.

Right. If I go to a western restaurant here in America and I'm traveling with other people, we sit down at a restaurant, each individual gets their own individual menu. Each individual will then look and see and decide what they themselves, by themselves want to eat. They'll make that decision.

They'll put in the order, and when the food comes, they will eat that food by themselves unless they're married and your wife likes to pick off of your plate, but that food is just for you, right? And you don't share it with other people. You eat it. Whereas in Asia, you have one person that orders for everybody.

And when the, when the food comes, everybody eats what that one [00:28:00] person has ordered, and everybody is, you know, breaking bread together. And so it's, it's, it, it's a, it's a different kind of, I think view of life. And maybe that is a part of the, the view of, of ministry also being different and, and it, the more I, I look at the Chinese system and the way that they actually just naturally, organically engage others with the, with the good news.

I, I feel that there is a direct connection with the first century believers, which would make sense, right? Because if you look at Israel, Israel is still a part of Asia. So a lot of people, they don't think of they in many ways because we see so many, especially with people that they, that are referred to as Palestinians.

Palestinians are Arab speaking because they're Arabs, they're from the Arab Peninsula. Arab Peninsula is different than Asia. And so when you move into, into Israel, Israel's actually a part of Asia. And so there are [00:29:00] similarities with Asia and Israel, and I think the early Jewish people, because you have this, this commonality maybe, maybe the languages are a little bit different, but some of the customs, some of the traditions we see many things that are shared across the border of of China and, and Israel.

That's amazing.

Dan: China is actively against this spread of Christianity in a lot of ways too. And so they have taken some pretty firm measures from arresting key leaders to actually, they have huge forms of controlling data. The great firewall. How does that work, especially with Christians, because you can't go too far in China with cameras everywhere.

You drive a car in China and almost every block they're taking, there's a photo being taken. How do people continue to meet amidst such control. What are some of the neat technologies even that your ministry is championing that help the gospel move forward despite those [00:30:00] regulations.

Eugene: Yeah. China is monitoring a lot more. We have a digital ID that is a big deal. We have what we call the super app inside of China, which is, it is called WeChat. And for people to understand what a super app is basically, if you can think of. Amazon and eBay and Expedia and Facebook and Google and all of these different apps, if you could think of them all kind of coming together into one single app, that's WeChat.

And so the government has absolute control over that and is able to monitor so they can see what you're taking photos of what you're sending in your chat with your friends. They can see your friend list, they can see where you're traveling. Everything that you do, you pay. So for instance, if I want to go to a restaurant tonight with my friends, I write to my friends.

China already has, you know, a friend list. Then I send them a message. Now they're able to monitor the message and then I make a reservation using WeChat at the restaurant that we would like to eat together. That's monitored. Then I take [00:31:00] a subway or a bus to that restaurant that's then monitored. 'cause I'm using that same app to pay for that transportation.

Then I arrive. At the at the, at the restaurant. Now, most restaurants do not give you menus. All of the menus are on WeChat. So then I'll do my order so China can even tell you what you're eating, and then I will pay for that order while I'm there with my friends. You also have your microphone with your, with your phone, and so they can monitor your conversations the entire time you're eating your food.

They can even tell, you know, how many gulps you take for eating that, that steak or that salad. And then from there, if you want to take a picture of your food and. Post on social media or send it to your friends that's being monitored. So everything about your life is being monitored through that app.

So it's not just cameras. The cameras are part of a 5G system and the 5G system is using facial recognition and 5G for people that are not familiar with that. Term is, is [00:32:00] basically it's just computer to computer communication. So you don't have to have a person that's actually following you, switching from camera to camera.

The, the cameras are sending your information to other networks, and the networks then pick you up and say, okay, to a previous network, I've got them, I'm now following them. And so everything that you're doing, including just driving down, they've already got you on the maps, but now they're just confirming it with all of the other tools that they have as you're driving along.

On the freeway. So it's a, it's a really in depth system of monitoring everyday activity that people do well in, in China, we've had some people that come and they say, Hey, you know, we have a need for sharing the Bible in this kind of hostile digital environment. Can you help us? And so every year we host a Hackers conference where we bring hackers from around the world and we bring in hackers from, we have hackers from CIA and NSA and Facebook and Google.

We bring in [00:33:00] hackers from foreign military cyber warfare units. And, and we bring people from all over the world that have a, that have a vision for completing the great commission. These are Christians that work in those environments every day. So they have the experience they, they have the abilities they have the giftings and they want to use them for the gospel.

They set in these environments day in and day out, and they're using them for secular purposes. And now, you know, for that, at the Hackers conference, they get a chance to have an expression, a Christian expression, to use those giftings to use that experience for the gospel. And so we're able to create many different tools that help the Chinese as well as other people as well.

North Korea, we create tools for Iran, Somalia, Sudan, all over the, the areas between China and Jerusalem. We create tools that help bypass these systems, hack into closed nations and share [00:34:00] the word of God. Wow.

Dan: That's incredible.

Eugene: Yeah, it's, it's, it's really amazing. It's been a, a blessing to be a part of.

One, one of the great things about, you know, working together with the hackers is that we've been able to create so many different tools. And so we have a small Bible. It's a size of a pill. You hold it in your hand and it illuminates the air in front of your face, and you can read the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation on this small pill size hologram Bible.

And that Bible we've been able to smuggle into gulags in North Korea, in prison cells in Western China so that, you know, Christians can have access to God's word, even in the most hostile of environments. We've been able to share the gospel with our friends. I got a, I got a call a couple years ago when the Taliban first took over in Afghanistan.

Our friends called us and said, Hey, you know, we're being stopped by road checkpoints. They're checking all of our devices. They're assuming that, you know, we're doing ministry in this area. And, [00:35:00] and, you know, good on 'em. They were doing ministry in the area, so the police knew who they were looking for and what they were looking for.

And so our friends ask us, is there any way that you can help us hide? The, the gospel on our electronics without the, the police finding them. And if you go onto the internet and you do kind of a time search back in 2022, you'll, you'll see that the Taliban was actually going in from door to door busting in people's homes, grabbing their electronics, and specifically looking for Bible apps Christian apps Christian materials whether they be PDF files or audio files or music whatever it was, they were, they were looking for that, they were looking to destroy that or just taking the entire electronic whe whether it was a mobile phone or an iPad or a, or a laptop computer, just taking it all together.

And so we were able to come together and find ways to hide the Bible [00:36:00] on these electronic devices. And it's really cool. I, I, I'm not able to tell you exactly what it is that we use, but I'll give you an example. Let's say that in China we have people that want to have a Bible. So we have created a a, a, the little red book of Mal zong.

Anybody that's familiar with China, they'll know that that is the, excuse me, second most sold book in the history of man behind the Bible. So the Little Red Book, Ong, everybody's allowed to have that. So we'll take that book, we create an app for that book, and if anybody sees that app on your phone, they can open that book and they can read through every page.

And all they'll find is that book. But if they arrive at page specifically 92, the Bible opens up from that book. So this is, you know, just one of the ways that we're able to hide the Bible on electronic devices using the resource of our hackers network in places like Afghanistan.

Amanda: Wow. Wow. So what are the repercussions if somebody [00:37:00] were to get caught today in a region in China?

What does that look like as far as, prison time, et cetera?

Eugene: Yeah, I, I can't go into too much detail, but we're, we're dealing with that right now. We created a device that had the Bible on there. It was a, it was a secret Bible on a, on a, on a device that looked like something else. The missionary was cut in a certain area and this was just a this was very recently the missionary was caught.

The the device was not known and the material that was on the device was not known. But after two days of questioning. In interrogation the missionary had to finally give up those devices. So all of those devices were collected known by the government. And then and right now that person is facing some pretty serious consequences.

We're hoping that we are able to get them [00:38:00] out of detention, but at the moment they've they're kind of off the grid not even known that they're in detention by their, by their country. So they're representatives, they're ambassadors, not aware that they've been detained. The, the government is trying to keep it down on the, on the low down so that not too much is raised about it, but that person is currently suffering for getting in secret items into the, in, into the country.

But. There are people so desperate for God's word that they're, they're willing to take those risks.

Dan: Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow. And is the theme for Chinese national believers, what does that look like for those who may be facilitating training centers or bible schools or just leading house searches?

What does that look like?

Eugene: I would say from 1999 up into 2019, that 20 year window was really this kind of increase of religious freedom. Religious freedom was, I mean, [00:39:00] we, we had this, you know, up and down when it came to persecution, there was always persecution that was present, but for the most part, we were on an upward trajectory of religious freedom.

And so things were getting easier, things were getting more relaxed, things were becoming more open inside of China. Up until 2019, 2019 is where the Chinese government finally put the brakes on and they're like, wait a minute. We have to get, we have to get our hands around this. The Chinese Christians are starting to outnumber the Communist Party members, and, and in fact, the, there are more Chinese Christians today than there are members of the Communist Party in China.

And this scares them. This is how the Communist Party started in China together with Mao Zong in the 1920s and 1930s. And then of course, finally taking over in 1949 after World War ii, after the nationalist party was weakened from the war and the, the joint effort fight that they had against the Japanese.

And so [00:40:00] when the, when the, the, the Communist came to power, they know that the way that we came to power was. We gathered together in secret, we printed materials and handed them out on campuses. We were able to completely saturate the community with our teachings. So when they see Christians doing the same, even though the the focus is different, the purpose is different, they are worried about that.

So from 2019 till today, we've seen more persecution in the last six years than we have in the last 20 years. Mm-hmm. So that has really increased. So today, if people are caught preaching the gospel, holding Bible studies, you're usually looking at, you know, a detention, maybe a pretty quick release. We haven't seen, you know, anybody executed in the last six years because, solely because of their faith.

But definitely long-term, long time inside of prisons. Sometimes sentenced to [00:41:00] life in prison. And then of course, also families being persecuted. Also, the removal of any ability to travel, so passports being taken and not being issued so that they cannot leave the country or have access to outsiders.

And then lack of access for jobs, lack of access for schools for their children. Lack of access to community services like healthcare education income or subsidized rent. All of those things are taken away from Christians. As they are considered to be criminals, so that every tool that they have at their disposal, and by the way, they're never persecuted for being Christian, so it's always something else that is attached.

So the, the thing that they will often charge people with is, selling state secrets or disrupting national harmony, which is a crime. And so bringing about national you know bringing about disruption to national [00:42:00] harmony. So there are different crimes that they charge with that have nothing to do with the gospel.

That way they can't be labeled by the United Nations, you know, as being religiously intolerant. Hmm.

Amanda: It's interesting as you pull back the political layers and look at the spiritual battle going on behind. It's the same spirit that Pharaoh had against the Israelites when they said, Hey, their numbers are increasing.

They're gonna overtake us. We see the same thing happening in what you just described. And even in brainwashing the children at such a young age, they tried to mitigate, the Hebrew children back in, that time 400 years of slavery that the Israelites went through.

And it's interesting to see that play out in today's world. We think of those being so long ago, but you know, the same enemy is probably around and the same attacks are happening. I wanted to ask, as far as the United States. And, just there's more people speaking up.

In fact, we have a pastor friend who goes into great detail about, the dangers of [00:43:00] Marxism and communism and just how that's trying to be infiltrated into our society, into our educational system. What do you feel like as United States citizens, what should we be most aware of in combating those things infiltrating our country today?

Eugene: A good question. Because I, I completely agree that there are certain things that we see in China today, like disrupting national harmony, for instance. That that language is actually used all across the 10 40 window. It changes, but the purpose is the same. So, so in China, they say disrupting national harmony in in islamic nations, they'll call it, you know, apostasy. Or you know, and in and in the west sometimes we will call it intolerance or hate speech. So, we'll, we, we label certain things, but the thing that I see in every single nation where the enemy gets a foothold, every single nation where the enemy gets controlled, the very first thing that I would [00:44:00] argue, 'cause I spent a lot of time in Hindu nations or the Hindu nation, I guess you would say, India.

I spent a lot of time in India. I spent a lot of time in Muslim countries. I spent a lot of time in Buddhist countries. And the number one thing that I see every single time that the enemy takes over, the first thing that he does is stops freedom of speech. And the, the reason why I believe that is because the Bible is very clear.

I, at least from my opinion, not everybody will agree, but. I believe that when John so poetically writes, in the beginning was the word, the word was with God, and the word was God. This idea of the word going forth to all of the nations, preaching to those that have not yet heard well, if we believe in Matthew 24 14, that all the nations will hear, and then the end will come.

If we truly believe that the enemy's first approach of defense is to stop that word from going out in [00:45:00] every way that he can. And so the very first thing that they do is they implement the, the enemy always implements this idea of stopping a freedom of speech. Now, there's a lot of people that will argue, well, what about, you know, lies and, and, and all of this, the, these lies that can possibly corrupt Christian teaching or corrupt the church?

What I love about Christianity is I believe that. Christ when Christ said, I'm the way, the truth, capital t, and life. I believe that that t truth is always found if you seek it, that a a a an ounce of truth will always defeat a room full of lies. Christians do not need to fear lies, lies fear. Truth lies the enemy for lies is truth, but lies are not the enemy to truth.

I believe the enemy to truth is silence, and therefore the enemy wants to silence Christians because we in a room full [00:46:00] of lies. It's why I love about Jesus. He always, always, always entertained those that had questions and was merciful with them and loving with them and always answered their questions, except the only time he didn't, except when it says very clearly, Jesus perceived.

They were setting a trap. It was, these are people that are not asking honest questions. They're actually trying to attack you by, by masquerading as individuals with questions. And so I see that across the board, and Paul says it very, very clearly in, in the book of Romans when he says that faith comes by hearing and, and, and, and how will they hear unless someone is sent in, in Romans chapter 10, he makes that very, very clear.

So when I look at Western Europe when I look at America, when I look at any Christian, even inside the church the very first thing that always rings alarm bells for me [00:47:00] is when there's a limitation on speech, because that is the enemy's foothold to use all this other decorative language, whether it's fake news or hate speech, or whatever the terminology might be.

I've seen it so much. In Islamic countries, Hindu countries, Buddhist countries, communist countries, the restriction on free speech. That's why Christian nations always allow free speech, whether you're in Sweden, whether you are in America, Canada, Australia, South Africa, whenever you see that Christian influence, free speech is vibrant.

And whenever you go into areas that are controlled by a, a, a darker entity, then you see that restriction on free speech. So I think that's something that Christians can learn from the underground church, the the restriction on speech that the enemy is just so dogmatic about, draconian about, because they need to, they have to [00:48:00] stop.

They don't know why. They think it's because Christians are lying and their whole book is a fairytale. That can't be it. I mean, a fairytale, how many people do you know that's ever been executed because they owned a copy of the, the, the Three Bears or Little Red writing hood? No, nobody gets executed for fairytales or, or untrue stories.

Nobody's being killed because of, you know, Lord of the Rings or, or you know, some fantasy star Wars te movie. But there's something about the Bible that regardless of the language that is used, the enemy behind it is to stop it. We have to stop the gospel from going around the world and from starting in Jerusalem and returning back to Jerusalem.

That's my opinion,

Dan: man. So well said. And I wanna be conscious of your time but I wanna make sure we ask this question. As we're talking about taking the gospel from Jerusalem back to Jerusalem and [00:49:00] just the depth of understanding of what it's going to take to get it back to Jerusalem.

Chinese believers have that responsibility and they have that mission. They see that, hey, the torch has been passed, so to speak, and it's their job to continue it on across, Asia. But I'm just wondering, we were talking about America and the Western church, how do we partner into that?

What are some of the best ways that we can, help that gospel continue on into gospel and, go through China. We can't necessarily just, sponsor a child in China, or we can't necessarily just give to a pastor or a ministry there in China. So how do we best come beside our fillable leavers in these closed countries?

Eugene: That's a, that's a really good question. I would, I would say that everybody has their own kind of calling and their own set of skills, and I would be very, very careful. For any Christian in the West to believe that, oh, you know, well our job in the west is kind of, you know, to, to support missionaries as they go into [00:50:00] these other areas.

Now, there is a, there is a, a great, you know argument for indigenous missionaries. There is a great argument for Chinese missionaries that are going into these closed countries, but it, it's very important for us to understand that we are not able to delegate the great commission. That there, there, that we all have a calling and this vision is something that God has given to us.

And I would argue that the vision isn't something, this is the, the Great Commission is not a vision. Necessarily for the church, but maybe the Great Commission has the church that, that people don't have a vision of the Great Commission, but the great commission has you and you are to go out and preach the gospel.

And that looks different for everybody. And I, I have to lean back on John Piper when he said, when it comes to missions, you only have three choices. Go, send or disobey. Those are the only three choices that you have when it comes to the Great Commission [00:51:00] because it's something that we have been commanded to do.

And I would argue that it is the first command and the last command. So when God created Adam and Eve in the very beginning, the very first thing that he says to them audibly, at least that which is recorded in the Book of Genesis, is to go forth and multiply and subdue the earth. So this idea of going out and then the very last thing that Jesus says before he ascends into heaven.

Is to go from Jerusalem, Judea, Sumerian, to the ends of the earth. So the, you're sandwiched, the whole Bible's kind of sandwiched in between this one command. In fact, I would even argue that the great sin, you know, I remember when I went to seminary and I was, I was taught about you know, the, the great sin of the Tower of Babel, to be honest.

When I read it, I was like, really? Like they, they built a big building. I mean, I live in China where skyscrapers are everywhere. And so it's like, that was the send, like the, the pride of building a big building. Did that send, [00:52:00] just go away because we do that all the time. Who can build the biggest building?

Is it in Dubai? Is it, you know, the, the Sears Tower? Like what, like who can build? It's kind of this, this race to the top. And and, and when I reread the story with that in mind, with the first command and the last command, both being this idea of going out and sending out I, I see that when it says very clearly, it says, let us build this tower unto ourselves, lest we be scattered.

So it was this idea like, let's keep us all together so we won't go out. It was in direct violation of God sending out his people. I would even go one step further and say, look at where all the sin is today. And not, not just in Christian nations, like in, in, it doesn't whether matter whether it's Buddhist or Dallas or, or, or Islam, whatever it is, it's usually the places where people congregate.

The city centers are usually the, the places where you [00:53:00] have all of the bubbling sin, right? So it's like you see, and, and no matter whether they're Islam or, or Hindu or whatever, if I go to the countryside, it's in the countryside. The farmers, the people living in the rural areas that I find that usually have the, the, the, the, the great moral code that they have, like all these things that are kind of don't steal, don't like, they already have kind of these commandments embedded in them, stamped on their DNA, if you will.

And I think that that has directly to do with going out and sending out. So when people see the Chinese and the Chinese missionaries, I would plead. With all of your listeners to know that the Chinese are now joining the rest of the Christian body on the mission field. Mm-hmm. To stand in the trenches, shoulder to shoulder together.

So whether that means that you are called to go to the mission field, whether that means that you are called to train or send out those that are going to the mission field, or whether you are called to [00:54:00] support those that are on the mission field. Chinese are now standing beside us, and I think that's exciting because we now, we now have the world's most populated nation on our side and moving to complete the great commission all the way back to Jerusalem.

Speaker 4: Amen.

Eugene: Well framed, well said.

Dan: Mm-hmm. Wow. That's encouraging. I wanna kind of come up for air here. I know we've been going pretty deep here and so Good. So good. So, so well said. Well, we think we're have to come back for a round two to go deeper. I do wanna kind of pivot here just a little bit with a couple fun questions here.

And see what you think here. Alright. You ready? Ready. I hope maybe we'll see. Alright, Eugene, if you could have a quote, mission superpower, like invisibility. Tell badly super speed. Which one would you pick? And why?

Eugene: Yeah, I mean, just off the top of my mind, probably invisibility just because I'm not a people person.

I know that it's like, [00:55:00] oh, maybe you can smuggle in Bibles. I'd be a lot more selfish than that. I, I, you know, I, I never really liked being around people. God chose the wrong person to go to China. I've been convinced of it. I spend every summer kind of isolated by myself. I go up into the mountains of northern Sweden, and I'm about four to six weeks.

I don't see one single person. I don't talk to one person for about that amount of time. And I just have me in the reindeer and I kind of like it. I like being unnoticed sitting in the back of a plane, sitting in the back of a church. I just that's, that's how I, I, I'm, I'm a bit awkward in social settings and visibility would do me well.

I hope you weren't looking for a more spiritual answer because no, no, this is, that's good. I think that's, that's my carnal, that's my carnal

Dan: Speaking

Eugene: out

Dan: of

Amanda: honesty.

Dan: This is where we want the wrong, while we're being honest. And do you have a mission quote mistake story, a time like where something went horribly wrong that taught you something really important?

Because I think when people [00:56:00] think about like missions and going into a ministry, like you've gotta get it a hundred percent right all the time, and the fear of failure stops them from going. So I'm just wondering if you have kind of a fun mission mistake story?

Eugene: Oh yeah. Well, you know there are, there are mistakes that I have made that are so bad that I would tell them by myself in a dark room with the lights off.

But the one that I would share is my wife and I, we were living in a place called ing and I needed to buy a motorcycle for our family. So we had two young children at the time. This is a little bit more than 20 some odd years ago. And I remember going to buy a motorcycle. And and, and, and you have, and I, we didn't have the money for a, a new one, so I was, I was just trying to find a really cheap second, third, fourth hand motorcycle.

And there's a place in Koning, it's kind of an area of town where you can buy like a secondhand everything, secondhand cars, secondhand bikes, secondhand clothes, secondhand motorcycles. So I went there and, and of course, you know, I had the white [00:57:00] tax, which is, you know, if you're a foreigner and you're in China, you pay more for everything because, you know, people think that, well, you're an American or you are white, so you have to pay more.

And and I remember getting really upset. The sun came out, I get irritable and heat. And so I'm sitting there and I'm, I'm, you know, dealing with the people and I get pretty rude, hostile, aggressive. My wife gets upset and leaves. So she leaves me. She's embarrassed by me, so I chase her down. We get into a taxi together.

And and then people are, you know, I tell the taxi driver to take one way. 'cause I know the area, he takes another way. And during lunchtime, the way that I told him not to take is just bumper to bumper. And so, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm ruining my testimony everywhere. And I remember my wife kicked me out of the taxi and made me walk home, and then her and the kids went to the, the home.

So I walked the rest of the way. It was a long walk. And I remember I got to our home [00:58:00] and my wife was packing our bags and I asked, you know, what are you doing? And she said we're, we're, we're gonna leave because the people here in China don't know the gospel. So of course they're not gonna be fair. Of course, they're not gonna be honest.

Of course, they're going to try to cheat you If they had all of those elements of honesty and goodness and mercy. They wouldn't need the gospel, but they do. And if we can't represent Christ the way that Christ wants us to represent him, then we're going to leave. And I just broke down. My wife gave me a spiritual spanking and asked for forgiveness.

And that was probably one of the most, like biggest failures. 'cause everybody that I had met that day did not get a good testimony. They got something, they got something completely different. And from that day onward, I've tried to be, I've tried to be a little bit better with that idea in mind.

That was a really great kind of life lesson that she taught me. That of course, when you go to places, [00:59:00] people are going to be, you know, the, the, the reason why when people were fleeing from Iraq, fleeing from Syria during the, the invasion of isis. They could have gone to nearby Saudi Arabia if they were looking for jobs.

There's more jobs and more money in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait than anywhere else. They would've also had the same language. You know, they speak the same language, they have the same culture. They eat the same foods, they have the same religion. They could have, they could have gone to UAE Dubai these places, but they didn't, they could have stopped in Turkey when they were crossing Turkey to get to the Christian nations of Europe, but they didn't.

They were, they were risking their lives to get across the water from Muslim nations as Muslims to. The nations that have been influenced most by Christianity and they can't tell you why. I can. And it is the transformation of the gospel transforms not just individuals but [01:00:00] societies and nations and the transformation that takes place becomes a light on the hill and people notice it.

Those that live in darkness run towards the light. And my wife taught me not to be a reflection of that darkness, but to be in contrast of it. And even when it becomes a burden to yourself and you have to pay more money for a motorcycle and you know you're being cheated and you just want to strangle somebody you still have to show the light of Christ.

So, wow.

Amanda: Thank you so much for sharing that. That is,

Dan: that's good.

Amanda: Yeah.

Dan: Challenging. Yeah. Alright, last one. When you're back in the States, you travel all these different places. What's your favorite comfort food? You've just landed, what's the food you're going for?

Eugene: I don't have one. I, I, you know, I spend a lot of time in Southern California, so usually I go for a taco truck, in Southern California. That's, that's, that's find the, the one that if I have it in a paper bag, it's going to grease its way out. It's going to fall [01:01:00] out because of the grease will make the paper.

So yeah, just weak And yeah, so it's usually Mexican food, but I also, I love a good In-N-Out burger. Mm-hmm. Those are the places I usually, you know, run for

Dan: man wise choices. Animal,

Eugene: animal style, burger. Oh yeah. Animal style. Yeah.

Dan: Is there another way to do it? I don't know.

Well, hey, so awesome having you on the show today. How can our listeners connect with you? How can they learn more about your podcast and your ministry, your books? How can we connect them to you?

Eugene: Yeah, back to jerusalem.com right there. You'll, you'll learn about the ministry of the Chinese Church.

It's their ministry, it's their focus, and I'm just along for the ride. Awesome.

Dan: And a place to get your books right there on the website as well.

Eugene: Yep. Back to jerusalem.com. There you'll find the books as well, books, podcasts details of events whenever we're having our meetings our hackers conferences those kind of things are all there on the website.

Amanda: Perfect. Yeah. And listeners, I just wanna throw in there, I often read articles off of Back to Jerusalem that they share on [01:02:00] social media, and you'll hear things that you will not hear anywhere else. So I would encourage you, get on those, get on the website, get on the social media feeds, platforms, and check it out.

Dan: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Eugene, what an honor to have you on the show. And man, we'll have to, we'll have to do round two. We speak blessing in favor over you and just what you're putting your hand to. We speak safety over you and we thank you for being just faithful to the call that God has on you and your life.

Eugene: Awesome. Thanks brother.

Dan: God bless. Amen.

Speaker 2: Right. Thanks for joining us today on the Mission Life Podcast. You enjoyed this episode. Be sure to subscribe so you never miss out on future conversations. And don't forget to share this episode with your friends, family, or anyone you think will be blessed by it. We also wanna invite you to check out our free 31 Day Devotional Living and Mission, all life designed to help you step forward into the purpose he has for you.

Speaker 3: Just click the link below to get your copy today. Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next time on The Mission of Life Podcast.