On this episode of the dudes and dads podcast, we talk with our friend, Chris Russell about human trafficking.
You're listening to the dudes and dads podcast, a show dedicated to helping men be better dudes and dads by building community through meaningful conversation and storytelling.
And now here are your hosts, Joel DeMott and Andy Lehman.
Andy.
Hey, Joel.
How are you?
I'm good. I think I think I pushed all the right buttons tonight and got this thing going.
Nice. You know, every once in a while, Andy, something happens.
The podcast varies come in and they change things around.
And boy, do I love to watch you just put it all back together.
You know, though, Joel, it's way better than having to set it up every time we go ahead and do one of these things.
That's so true.
Because that never works.
That never works.
Love it.
Hey, everybody, welcome to the dudes and dads podcast. Glad to have each and every one of you with us.
Maybe you're watching the stream right now.
Maybe not.
But if you're not and you want to, you should.
You should.
You can watch now streaming and out live.
That's where you can find us at now streaming that life.
Is this a new edition?
No, it's we've had it for a while.
See, this goes to show you what I know.
I don't know where the things are, but.
Yeah, glad to have each and every one of you here tonight.
Excited about our our conversation.
So much to learn.
Joel, what is new tonight?
You know what?
Thanks for asking.
I left Josiah attending a large bonfire is what I did.
Is your wife home?
She is.
OK, good.
Had a clear line of sight.
He's a boy scout.
He's 13. I'm sure it's fine.
I mean, I trust him.
I'm sure it's fine.
I was clear about the parameters of being number one, that all fuel sources need to
be in far distance from that.
But we had a lot of brush and things that had to get burned.
And you know, you know, the weather the way it's been right.
While it's dry and there's no wind, it's like, let's get on it.
I had a fire last night because of that same reason.
That was like, you know, I've got to get it out there and get the brush done when I can't
get it done.
And because of the summer and spring sports stuff that all goes on, that also limits my
weekend burning opportunities.
It does.
So when you get it, you jump on it, you go.
Yeah.
And then I had to get here to the studio.
And so I was like, Josiah, I think I think you're this is good for you.
You can handle it.
You can handle this.
Please don't burn the garage, the garage or the barn down, please.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So as far as I know, everything's going great.
And I guess we'll find out when we get back.
How are things going for you?
Good.
So tonight we are actually doing a zoom back channel for our Patreon supporters.
For those of you that are concerned, zoom back channel is entirely legal.
I'm told it's entirely on the up.
It's essentially just a zoom meeting that you can be in and chat and with other listeners
and talk.
And then if you actually want to talk and we want to bring you on, we will bring you
on the show.
Andy, I thought that when we sent a man to the moon, I said, that is the pinnacle of
technological innovation and achievement.
And yet here you are tonight talking about the zoom back channel.
And I say, Hey, really?
The sky's the limit.
What else is possible before you'll be telling me that we that we the time travel is next.
I think that's probably the next step.
And Doc Brown is next door.
I think anyways, Joel tonight, we wanted to bring a Chris Russell on.
Chris is somebody that I've known for a little while.
He's come and visited our church and talked a little bit about destiny rescue.
And I remember thinking back then when he came on or came up, came on, came up to Clinton
frame.
You know, this would be a great, a great thing.
And then the, we were at the father's more, I can't get the words out tonight.
Fathers matter forum.
That's hard to say it is the other week.
And Chris had a booth not too far from us.
And he said, you know, I think that would be a great topic.
This I, this topic of human trafficking.
And I said, yes, actually it would.
It's always great to be in close booth proximity to people that are on mission.
We're on the same thing.
So it's great.
So welcome to the show.
Chris.
Hi, welcome.
Hey, thanks guys.
A little worried, Joel, looking out the window.
I see some smoke in the distance.
I'm not sure what direction your house is from location.
Well, that's we'll just ignore that.
I'm assuming looks to the best.
It's literally, it's going to be in the back of my mind the entire time recording.
There's a reason your back is taken.
We're just going to act like it's not happening.
Chris.
We always like to like to start off every show, getting a little more info about you.
And we like to call these the, the dad stats as it were.
So this is an opportunity for us to ask you to share anything you want to about yourself,
your family, anything you want to put out on the interwebs.
This is your time, but yeah, tell us about yourself.
Maybe a little background where you come from, how you ended up doing what you're doing and
yeah, your family, all that, all that good stuff.
We'd love to hear about it.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for having me on guys.
Appreciate it.
So I've actually been living in the Goshen area since 2010.
I came up here to be the lead pastor at community church of Waterford.
So did that from 2010 to 19.
And then that's when I came over full time with destiny rescue.
So asked her for 23 years and now I've been full time with destiny rescue for five, but
our church partnered with destiny rescue for four years before that.
So I've been connected to the ministry for nine years, but full time for a little five.
Gotcha.
And I'm assuming you're married.
Yes.
Yeah.
My wife and I are married and four kids.
Caleb is in Cincinnati.
He'll be 25 next month.
Nice.
I don't know how that works.
Does the kids get older and we don't.
Like I'm not sure how the math works on that, but, and then three girls, my wife and I adopted
three girls seven years ago.
And the, and by the way, all, all at one time, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So the oldest one's actually going to be 21 on Saturday.
Another crazy one.
And the two at home are 16 and 10.
So yeah, I didn't think this through really well guys.
So I grew up one of three boys.
So getting three girls, there was a lot more drama with girls.
And yeah, I tell people I volunteered to go on the road a lot to speed.
Just kidding.
He loves it.
Quite different.
And I think about the fact with the age difference that they had, that I was going to have at
least one teenage girl for the next 16 years of my life.
Yeah.
So yeah, let us know how that goes.
Yeah.
Man.
Wow.
We'll keep that in mind.
I've got two, two girls that are coming up and while they're not actually, well, one's
teen, teenager.
Yeah.
But the other one, I think thinks she is sometimes she's working on it.
She is.
Yeah.
She is.
Yeah.
I yeah, Chris, if you, I did the three boys and then the youngest is the, is the girl
and Molly is a survivor.
People, people just all the time with her, like, Oh, you have three older brothers.
They just assume like, man, she's just having to overcome so much.
Right.
And it's like, she's got it made.
This is the baby of the family.
She she had this gig.
She's restarted this up now where we're brothers will give her piggyback rides.
I think if she's like, Hey, let's, let's go.
She's tops on when she gets older.
Any boy that's interested in her really doesn't stand a chance.
That's how I feel about it too.
So you're not even gonna have to step in dad.
I feel fine.
Chris.
I do wonder because I just, I don't know.
I have a particular fascination and curiosity with this for some strange reason.
I'm wondering stepping out of pastoral ministry and doing what you're doing now.
Have you felt like there was a very easy transition crossover?
Have you had strange out of body experiences since, since then?
I just, I wonder what that's been like every night after Mexican.
I wonder, I wonder we're talking about.
Yeah.
I wonder how that's gone for you.
Actually, it was a pretty smooth transition.
And you know, Andy and I were actually talking a little earlier about that transition.
So I was at community church of Waterford from 2010 to beginning of 2019, but my wife
and I, we finalized the adoption with our three girls on August 3rd of 2018.
And it was just a couple of weeks after that, that I actually sat down with our head elder.
Cause that was the time of the year where we typically kind of do a, it's not really
a review.
It's just like, Hey, let's have a conversation.
Let's discern like, is this still, or am I still the right person to lead the church
family?
Is it the right fit for me?
And I just told him, I said, Hey, I really feel like the answers are different this year
and I need help discerning this.
So we took about a month to really pray and talk that through and realized, yeah, God,
God had something up his sleeve and something was coming.
So we actually announced in October of 2018 that we were going to wrap up at the end of
the year and we had no idea what was coming next.
It was a great faith teaching moment for our church family that, you know, we had, anytime
you have transitioned in church, there's always people that are wondering, okay, what's the
real story?
Cause everything was good.
Everything was healthy, but you know, you're always just, you know, the enemy likes to
creep in there and make people doubt about stuff.
So we actually kind of sent the letter out.
So everybody got it on Friday.
So that kind of the bomb effect and then just, I invited everybody to come on Sunday and
we were just going to have a family meeting during service time.
And I, three barstools up on stage, it was me, our head elder, our head board member,
and we just shared the story and spent some time celebrating how God had called me there
in 2010, some of the great God moments in the time I was there.
And then how God had just been kind of changing how he had me wired, that something else was
coming up and that I was going to be stepping out of that.
And we just talked about kind of Abraham about the whole, I will show you as you go.
And that's kind of how we felt was like, we don't know what's next from a, from a human
standpoint, this makes no sense to make this decision to step, to be announcing that we
are leaving when we have nothing lined up, but from a faith perspective of going, there's
a time, cause we had just finished the series called sink and it was all about being in
sync with, you know, how God wires you and what he calls you to.
And that's what I use as that illustration is that, you know, just kind of being in sync
with God, but over time things had shifted and God was calling me to something else.
And there's a time that you take to pray and discern, but then there's a time where, you
know, the answer, and now you're stepping into disobedience.
If you continue down that road and just share that with the church, I said, I don't want
that for me.
I don't want that for my family.
I don't want that for our church family.
So we are going to trust God in this, that he's going to show us as we go.
And we're going to go ahead and in faith, we're going to announce that we are wrapping
up.
Yeah.
So, so you had mentioned that you didn't know where you were going, but shortly after that,
you joined destiny rescue.
Yeah.
Shortly after when that became public that we had announced that we were leaving, Kirk,
the CEO at the time of destiny rescue had reached out and he just wanted to get together
to kind of hear, cause we connected, I had been going in and doing devotions with their
staff and I'd spoken at several other events.
I was on their board.
He just kind of wanted to know like, Hey, what, what's been going on?
And about halfway through that conversation, he said, Hey, it really value having a conversation
with you about joining our team.
And that totally blindsided me.
And I was like, well, you know, this goes guys with the wives.
I called the wife.
She's like, yeah, I kind of expected that to happen.
I'm like, well, thanks for the heads up there there.
I had no idea that was coming.
And so it was just this awesome thing of, you know, I got to talk with him and then
a couple of days later I met with Jason Tash and our current CEO and we just had a chance
to talk cause he was a former pastor as well.
So it allowed me to say, okay, what's this look like to go into this nonprofit world
with a background as a pastor.
And it's, you know, we talked for a couple hours and then it kind of became a, okay,
what's this job look like?
And they're like, well, give us a week to come up with a job description.
And they came back a week later and kind of rolled it out and it was just everything in
my wheelhouse and in my, in what I was passionate about.
So, so tell us about your decision.
Yeah.
So tell us about your role, what that is, are, and maybe, I don't know, maybe it has
shifted or evolved some over time or if it's kind of maybe stayed in the same line, but
so I began pretty much in the role that I'm in now.
We did some adjustments where I, I moved into a different role and it was a lot more administrative,
a lot more meetings and it just wasn't life giving to me.
And really, and to their, to their credit, when I had those conversations with team members
of going like, Hey, this is my wheelhouse.
This is what I would really love to do.
And I'm willing to do whatever for the organization, but if at some point I can get back to what
I love, that's, and in short order, God provided someone to take some of that other leadership
on and I was able to slide into the, into my sweet spot.
And so, so I serve as the director of engagement.
I'm one of, we have about 30 of us on the US team.
Seven of us are pastors.
So I'm the, I serve as the director of engagement and I'm one of those seven pastors on staff.
So, so I get the opportunity to really connect with people.
I probably spend about half of my Sundays traveling the country and we do what we call
rescue Sundays.
So it's getting to speak at churches like you're talking about and you've been, you
know, been here getting ready to come back to Clinton frame in just three weeks for the
third rescue Sunday.
And it's really, let's, let's raise awareness on the issue.
Let's connect people to God's heart on the issue and then let's figure out what God's
call to action for our church family is.
So it still allows me to stay very connected to the church.
And now I really get to love on and coach up pastors and then helping them figure out
how do you get your church engaged?
How do you get them fired up and how do you release them for ministry to set kids free?
So that's really rewarding.
Can you tell me a little bit about what destiny rescue is for those who don't know what rescue
is?
So destiny rescue, we're an international Christian organization.
Our primary focus is rescuing underage girls out of sex trafficking situations.
Now in the process of that, we certainly get boys last year.
We actually 10% and that's our highest percentage ever.
And typically been hovering around like three to 4% before that.
But last year was 10%.
So but our primary focus starts by looking for underage girls, but in the process of
doing our raids undercover operations, of course we go in looking for the underage girls.
When we do the raid, we're taking everybody that we can.
So we end up with, you know, over half of our rescues end up being miners.
But we do get a lot in that like 18 to 25 range.
And then we, like I said, we get had about 10% males last year, but last year alone,
we were able to rescue 3,352 individuals.
Wow.
Trafficking situation.
Wow.
Goodness.
Our average rescue is 15 years old.
Our youngest two rescues to date are two eight month olds.
One of those was a kidnapping situation that we got asked to help out in.
And another one was a kind of a generational situation where the girl belonged to a brothel
and had a baby.
And now that baby belongs to the brothel.
It's just a matter of time before something happens to that little one.
We did rescue both before any abuse started, but it just shows you how deep and dark this
issue goes.
But we are an international organization and we, so when you, when you look at trafficking
in general, human trafficking is the fastest growing criminal activity in the world by
far.
It makes over $150 billion a year.
It's estimated about 99 billion of that is specifically sex trafficking.
And we know that right now there are well over a million kids on the planet being sex
trafficked.
It happens everywhere.
It happens in every country.
It happens in every state in our country.
It doesn't happen equally.
If you're looking at a world map, Southeast Asia is about 60% of those million kids that
are being sex trafficked is there.
There's kind of like, it's almost like old Testament view of women.
Like women are seen as second or third class citizens property.
The younger ladies have less opportunities for the kinds of jobs they can have in society
and the oldest girls responsible for the parents as they get older as well.
So you just put all those factors together and it just creates trafficking at massive
levels.
When you are are you frequently, cause you mentioned, is your organization contacted
to go into places or are you are you operating independently and then bringing other resources
to the country?
Cause I would imagine in terms of like law enforcement or these sort of things, when
you use the term raids, that's what comes to my mind.
So I'm wondering, you know, maybe how to whatever specifics you can give, what is the kind of
the formation of your effort?
How where does it start when you become aware of something to the, to the process of, of
going in and making that contact?
Yeah.
Okay.
Great question.
So when you are doing undercover operations in a country, you have to have what's called
an MOU.
It's a memorandum of understanding, legal document spells out what you can and can't
do.
But that allows our undercover agents to wear the hidden body cameras on them and then go
in there.
It also spells out once we've rescued girls, do they come into our care?
Do they go into government care?
Are they able to be reunited with family?
I mean, the sad reality is it's estimated that about 40% of trafficking starts with
a family member.
So when we rescue girls, we definitely have to vet families before that's even considered
as a viable option.
Obviously it's the ideal option to get them back with their family if it's safe and healthy,
but otherwise it spells out.
So places like the Philippines, we actually do more raids in the Philippines than any
country that we work in.
We've done hundreds of raids, arrested hundreds of traffickers there, but they have a great
aftercare program for the kids.
So we help with the rescue efforts, but then they go into government care afterwards.
Other countries like Thailand and Cambodia where they don't have as many resources for
that, we do have programs in place that some of those kids come into our care.
So like last year, the 3,352 rescues that we had, about almost 600 came into our direct
care.
Others either were able to be reunited with family or they went into government care for
that aftercare component.
So when a raid happens, who all is involved in that raid specifically?
So when we do, once you have that MOU, then we're working hand in hand with local law
enforcement.
So what's beautiful is like in places like the Philippines, you cannot be American and
be a police officer.
So just by being present there, traffickers aren't worried about you being with the law
because they assume you're the tourist, which is the target audience for these traffickers.
So it allows us to, it's a great partnership with us to be able to work with local law
enforcement.
And so we have, we're one of the few organizations that actually has our own undercover agents.
We have typically 35 to 40 full-time undercover agents around the world.
A lot of anti-trafficking groups are, they gather intel, they hand it off to local authorities,
hoping something will happen, but local authorities are getting paid off to look the other way.
So we raise up our own rescue agents.
So some of these agents live in these different communities under assumed names and they're
building relationships with traffickers.
They're building a network of informants basically.
So when they gather enough intel, then what you could have, like, you know, it could be
a common thing would be, let's say you and I, you know, are working together with Destiny
Rescue and we're the undercover agents.
We're building these trusted relationships.
So we go to these guys and we say, hey guys, we've got a business deal going down and we
want to celebrate it Friday night, but we want a bunch of young girls.
So they're like, okay, yeah, we got, we got young girls.
We can bring young girls.
So let's just say you and I, Andy, we, we end up going in and we're the undercover agents.
We, we go in pretending to be customers and we go in, the traffickers show up and then
when the girls show up, when everything's in play, then we're able to send, you know,
some kind of signal with the phone or whatever to the rest of our team and the local team.
Then they come in to do that rate on that and we get arrested in the process as well.
So it helps keep our cover intact as well.
But in the Philippines, they, they're really coming down on that.
If you're caught trafficking two minors, it's a 30 year sentence, 30 years for each additional
child after that.
So a few years back, we were part of arresting a couple that had 10 kids and they each got
270 year sentences.
So I mean, I would assume, and is there a degree to which destiny rescue is doing policy
advocacy in those, in those regions as well?
Or are those regions kind of realizing the issue that they have and are they, are they
in terms of legislation, law enforcement, all of that sort of taking that, that banner
up themselves.
So we're definitely, cause you think about this guys, if you're going to partner with
the country on this kind of work, you're, you're putting as an undercover agent, you
are putting your life in other guys.
Cause think about this, you know, if you, there's a reason this is the fastest growing
criminal activity in the world and the money it's, it's going to surpass illegal drugs
and firearms and the not too distant future.
And it makes sense when you think about that, if you sell me a gun, you make a profit one
time if you own a girl thousands of times.
So it, yeah, you're, you're putting your life on their line.
So, so when you're, when you're doing that, you got to make sure that, you know, you really
believe that government is really serious about, about what they're doing.
So we don't work as much on the policy side of that.
I think that's the beauty of how God has called many different agencies to work together on
stuff like IJM, international justice mission, that that's their sweet spot is, is working
on that legislative side and really doing policy and all that kind of stuff.
And we, we get to work in partnership with them on, on some things.
It's just not a primary for us, but absolutely.
I believe the countries that we work with, if we didn't believe they were serious and
on their end, willing to work on some of this policy and stuff to stem the tide.
I don't, I don't think we would ever sign into that partnership.
Has the growth in the trend trafficking.
I mean, I would imagine that developments in technology have really aided trafficking
considerably.
Sure.
Would you say that that's, that's the primary cause or is there, or is there something else
going on that is it number one, are we just, do we just care about it more?
So we're more aware of that it's going on.
Are there other factors that are, that are building this industry?
I mean, as you said, it's going to surpass illegal firearms trading and narcotics.
Would you identify as the contributing factors societally?
Because, because it's, like you said, this is an international issue.
So I'm just, I'm just curious if you would have a, in one word, sin.
Yeah.
Great.
Yes.
Yeah.
That's really what it comes down to.
I mean, we are one messed up broken world and that shows itself in ugly, ugly ways and
nothing uglier than I think this issue.
But I think you're, you know, speaking to your point earlier, there's, I mean, technology,
the trafficking looks really different in different places in the world.
So even like here in the U S like if we're the partying type, we're not going to go out
to a bar and find a 15 year old girl working in the bar.
It's not going to happen.
We've got the laws against it and we have the bite to those laws.
Right.
But I, you know, we could literally go over to Cambodia and Thailand right now and I could
take you one down one city block of the red light district and we're going to probably
find 10 underage kids working.
They just lie about their age.
They've got laws against it.
They just have no resources to force it.
And so they're really hiding in plain sight.
So it's just a very different scenario than what you would find here in the U S where
it's going to be much more high tech, much more underground.
So there are the technology stuff really is something that has aided the traffickers.
So I think a lot of times people see and hear about trafficking in other countries, but
you had mentioned it, it obviously happens here in the U S too.
And I think, you know, we had talked a little bit about when we met last that pornography
is a slope to that.
So can you, can you talk a little bit about, about that in general?
Cause I think a lot of times when, when men particularly get involved with watching pornography,
they don't necessarily think, Oh, I'm an I'm helping out trafficking.
Yeah.
Pornography is part of the monster human trafficking engine.
There's no separating that.
I mean, if you, if you do background on these guys that are deeply steeped and addicted
into abusing and using these young girls, pornography is predominant.
Like it's pretty much, I, I would guess it's gotta be a pretty darn close to 100% factor
across the border of history with that.
And I think this is where the enemy gets victory in guys lives is if a guy's, you know, sitting
behind a closed door and looking at something on their computer and doesn't feel like it's
really that big of a deal.
Like I'm not hurting anybody.
I'm not, you know, but, but the enemy loves that cause the enemy isn't always in a hurry.
The enemy, you remember the old casting crown song, it's a slow fade when you get like that.
That's really, I think how the enemy plays this battle of pornography with many men.
He's not in any hurry and he will just take you down slowly over time.
So guys start looking at, you know, your basic pornography.
And the problem is it's almost like a, how your body builds up tolerance for medication.
Like eventually that same dose doesn't do it anymore.
And then you've got, it's kind of like these like guard rails.
You know, if you picture those like on a road or something, you like you put those in place
and then all of a sudden you move them a little bit and you're willing to look at this and
that doesn't do it.
So you got to look at something a little more extreme.
So you just move those guard rails again and more and more and you just keep moving the
boundaries slowly.
The slow fade happens.
And eventually what you end up with is men who have a serious addiction to pornography.
And the reality is eventually the idea of having sex with a 15 year old girl doesn't
really seem that far out there because it's the slow fade that is just slowly rewired,
literally rewired their brains to think completely different about this whole issue.
With, I'm trying to think of the, the really the best way to ask this question, but for
a man here in the U S who, who eventually crosses over that line and who that now is,
that's like something that they're, that individual is going to seek after what, what is the court?
Cause I mean, I just sit here and I go like on my worst day, like on my worst day, I don't
even know where to like, how do you even think about where to access that or to, or to gain
or to gain that, gain that access.
And yet clearly it happens.
It's very, it's very real.
What are the places in the access points of that?
That's that's occurring.
What circles are people getting into where they now have access to that kind of, that
kind of opportunity?
Does that question make sense without, without like trying to instruct people?
And I'm not going to name any particular, www.no, we're not going to do that and plant
some seeds that don't need to be planted.
But I think, yeah, that there is such a dark underbelly to all of this even in the U S
you know, I know in general, which I think are okay to talk about the topic of that,
but like even just you know, like with the massage parlors and stuff like that, that's
very, I mean, obviously, you know, you hear about that in like Southeast Asia and that,
but that's, that's very much a thing here too, that, you know, you get these underage
girls that are working in some of these places and some of the websites, like I, I do some
deep dives, just, you know, kind of out of research and share that, you know, we have
teammates that share that information.
So there's some accountability with that, but really there's so much of this that comes
down to vulnerabilities and not just talking children here, but just women in general.
You know, there's websites that that men can pray on young women because they're, you know,
they might be single moms or they're, they're young, young girls trying to put themselves
through college and have nobody to support that.
And there's, there's websites you get on that like, you know, you set up, Hey, you can just
set up these kinds of arrangements where I'll help pay for this.
And in return, you know, like it's just, it's totally feeding on the vulnerabilities of
our women.
It's guys that are looking for easy prey.
And, you know, we have a whole program called a rescue op one 20 for our teenagers and we
go into schools and we talk to the kids about how traffickers think, how they use social
media.
I put my dad hat on, I talk about girls, what kinds of pictures you post, what message that
sends.
I talked to the boys about pornography and every time I go in, I have at least one girl
that shows me a conversation on her phone that I can guarantee is a draft.
And I, you know, it's embarrassing sometimes that I have this conversation with my own
kids from the standpoint of they hear me talk about this all the time.
And every now and then something comes up where it's like, are you, are you listening?
You're just, you're in that naive teen years where you're thinking now that can happen
to me.
And so, so as a, as a parent, so if you're addressing me and Joel as, as dads, what are
some things that we can do as parents to a help protect our kids and, and be help in
general, the whole idea of, of, of human trafficking.
Like what can we do sitting here in our comfy chairs and in the studio, like what can we
do?
Well, let's talk a little bit on the U S based side of stuff.
So when we're talking about the most vulnerable populations, when we're talking kids, we're
talking migrant workers, foster care, those are the two biggest vulnerability populations.
So I encourage people in churches, groups, whatever that is, how do you, how do you support
those groups?
You know, like there's boys and girls clubs, you know, there's the post here in town.
How do you come alongside foster families?
Maybe your church gets some, you know, people to get a license as foster families or how
do you support those networks of people, whether it's you doing it yourself as a foster parent
or coming alongside a foster family and really doing that whole, it takes a village to raise
kids kind of a thing.
So I think there's a lot of that that can happen and people can get more involved with
that.
As far as for your own like personal kids, I think open conversation, like you having
open lines is really important.
And I think as parents, the challenge here is that we've got to be careful about how
we set the table for that.
Sure.
Cause as a dad, you know, I think as dads, we get pretty fired up and passionate.
Especially in particular with our girls as far as protecting them.
And it'd be really easy to be like, you don't do this, you don't do that.
You know, like it would be really easy to do that.
And, but I think we have to be, I think our, our daughters need to hear our tender heart
side of things to recognize how much we value and cherish them and love them and want the
best for them.
And to realize that these predators are out there and that, you know, with our girls,
we talk about that, like if you get on something, if somebody contacts you and it's something
inappropriate, you bring that to us, you are not going to get in trouble for what somebody
else does.
Sure.
Now you're going to be accountable for what you decide to do in return or how you foster
or, you know, re you know, reply to that or build that, that situation up, but you're
not going to get in trouble if somebody, you know, sends you some picture or sends you
some really crude message or whatever, like just come and talk to us so we can help you
figure out the best way to handle that.
Because you know, the reality is nowadays, like even the little kids, the, the video
games they play, those all have chat features on them and there's traffickers all over those.
So you just got people pretending to be somebody they're not.
And you know, my kids know like the, the ceiling is you don't connect with anybody on social
media that you don't know in real life.
The reality is nowadays, even that's not necessarily guideline, but that's like the ceiling part
of that is like, you don't go past.
If you don't know someone in real life, you are not connected to them in any way on social
media.
It's just too dangerous of a world that we live in now.
We just, you just can't trust it.
So those open communication lines are really important.
So we need to be aware of what our kids are doing and what our kids are on with social
media.
We need to be monitoring that.
More parents need to have monitoring software with their kids' phones.
I mean, you're giving, you're giving immature kids, even if they're mature kids, they're
still kids.
You're giving them a phone with the power to access pretty much everything on the planet.
And especially when you're giving that to hormone driven boys and you're just giving
them a phone, like, what do you think is going to happen?
Like naturally they're going to find their way onto those things.
So that's what we've got to be able to have the heart to heart conversation.
You know, it's like scripture.
It's never just a God saying, don't do this, don't do like, there's always, what's his
heart behind that.
Because if we, his heart is always for us and if we understand his heart, then it doesn't
feel like a, Oh, I'm just going to do this.
Cause he says, don't do it.
You know, like if they understand that for all of us who are dads, if our kids understand
our hearts behind it, they're going to be much more receptive and open to the following
that wisdom.
So for, I think, you know, as our kids, we, and Andy and I have these conversations all
the time.
That's been the ongoing thing of I don't know what did I, I was, I was talking with some
educators the other day and I, I, I just said, and I, cause I've seen it.
I've seen a ton of, I'm always looking at with an adolescent studies.
I mean, I w I work for a, you know, a youth serving organization now and I'm always, I'm
always trying to stay very, very, you know, reasonably up to date in terms of technology
access with kids and what it's doing and across the spectrum, be, be secular or faith-based.
Everyone is saying the same, like it's one of the few times I think where we across the
country here where everyone is speaking pretty like the people who know and are doing the
research and are in, I think pretty much everyone knows like the results are all are in.
And I just, I said to somebody the other day, I was like, I was like, you're giving, you're
just, you're putting a gun in your kid's hands.
Just the bullets are super slow, you know, but it's, but it's loaded and it, it will
make, it'll make an impact.
And I think it makes an impact in this particular area.
We don't, we don't think about that, that piece.
That's an interesting point though, Joel, you know, both your kids and my kids are trained
in 4-H shooting sports.
We wouldn't have just gone out and said, Hey, here's a guy.
I mean, like really we wouldn't have, but we, we do that as parents to our kids with
the phone.
Like a lot of times we just say, here's a phone and we don't, we don't, we may put restrictions
on it, but we don't even talk about the fact that why we're doing that or what the restrictions
mean and, and how, how to actually be safe with it as opposed to just saying, okay, here's,
here's your phone.
Cause it is, I mean, you know, really to Chris, to your point, like it is a, it's a direct
line of access to your child and, and people who have nefarious intentions who, you know,
like it is, you know, and it's super easy.
Yeah.
I mean, it's just super easy to, to gain access to them, which is, you know, our, our policy
has been, and I don't think it's just, you know, my kids don't have social media at all
at this, at this age, like just zero access to that.
And and if I find out they are trying to get access to social media, I mean, I treat it
like I've treated, like they have stolen a vehicle.
Like I like it's, it's serious.
You know, it's serious.
My 16 year old has a track phone.
Yeah.
Okay.
That's all she's going to have for awhile.
Yeah.
Like you said, the studies are so conclusive, like depression level of is like young girls
that just get down there and comparing themselves to all these other, what they're seeing in
magazines and articles about what women should look like.
And it's just absolutely devastating on their, their self esteem and image
Without going down the rabbit hole too far.
I mean, this is the most, and this is this past fall is one of the seminars I was at
a researcher who is, who's done extensive research in this area.
They just, they do these national I'm going to get the name of the studies, but it's national
mental health wellbeing amongst adolescents specifically.
And so 2012 was the year that all this, it just started tanking, like tanking heavy.
And we're talking to the point where they, they had a hard time figuring out what in
the world would have caused such a dramatic decline in mental health amongst adolescents
because in 2012, like there were no wars really going on.
There was not like any major like economic crisis or like anything else, you know, going
on at the, at the time it's when the iPhone hit market saturation and when, when the technology
hit saturation, that's when youth gain access to it typically.
Right.
Cause the prices have gone down and mom and dad are like, okay, well, junior can have
one or whatever.
And then from then on out, just the steady decline of what we, and I just think about
the population you're talking about.
I mean, that are at risk.
If they are, if their mental health is already compromised, if they are, if they are a vulnerable
population in that alone and the right predator comes along.
Right.
I just, it's like fish in a barrel, man.
It just seems like it's just how, how, how easy, how easy that would, that would be.
And again, this is not, I mean, we're not, these are, you've seen it.
I'm sure plenty.
That's not a scare tactic.
This is a real, like this, these are real life scenarios.
This is exactly how this happens.
And we weren't part of this particular case, but in Fort Wayne, right before COVID, there
was a 14 year old girl and a very similar thing.
She met somebody on social media, you know, the, you think about it.
If you, if we were predators and we were getting online and creating fake accounts, what are
we looking for when we're looking at all these other teenagers accounts, we're looking for
depression, just loneliness, suicidal tendencies, ones that don't get along with their parents.
Well, right.
Even better.
How easy is that for us to pretend to be that sympathetic ear and be like, no, you're amazing.
That's the way your parents shouldn't be able to tell you what to do.
Why do you listen to them?
You should just leave.
You're old enough to get out on your own.
And that's what happened with her was the guy convinced her to run away.
She runs away, meets up with him before she even knows what happens.
He takes the phone, disables all her social media, destroys her phone, and he starts to
abuse her and then start selling her to friends to abuse her.
And the only reason she got rescued was because a police officer went to a car that was parked
in an illegal zone and it was a woman who was transporting this girl.
And when he went to talk to her, he looked in the back seat and saw this girl who was
obviously very young with all this makeup and dressed up way older than she was and
realized that it was a trafficking situation.
That's the only reason that she got arrested.
I was right in Fort Wayne.
So I think for those who are listening, we, when we talk about these things, I mean, the
purpose is always to be real.
It is absolute to be real.
It is never to give you, to give anyone a sense of like, we should be fearful about
every single thing around every corner at the same time.
To be discerning is a necessary thing.
And social media really is the biggest thing.
You know, you see movies like, you know, everybody can quote Liam Neeson, right?
They've taken movies and even the sound of freedom came out, you know, the storyline
of kidnapping.
It's, it's a Hollywoodized, you know, that that's the storyline we want kind of thing.
But the reality is, is that is not extremely common.
It's much more traffickers that are exploiting vulnerabilities over time and grooming kids
for this.
So we, we gotta be careful not to think like, okay, where's my kid?
Where's my, you know, kidnapping.
Yes, be diligent about knowing where your kid is, make sure they're smart and they know
what they're looking for and being aware and being with others, not by themselves.
Like, yeah, absolutely do that.
But recognize that if you're doing that and you're not paying attention to the social
media side of things, that's the bigger threat.
Interesting.
Yeah.
I, I'm Chris, I wonder for you personally, I mean, when you say 3,352, I mean, that's
got to feel pretty good.
And yet for every single one of them, you know, there's plenty, plenty more.
Yep.
For you psychologically, mentally, spiritually, when you look at that, when you look at that
reality, what, what keeps you going?
What keeps you?
Cause I, I get a sense that you're as, as focused on the, on the mission as ever, which
we're so grateful for.
And maybe you could speak to for you and for others on the organization, because I mean,
you guys are looking, it's just constant darkness.
Like you are, you are perpetually aware of the, just the darkest underbelly of, of any
given society.
How do you do it?
How do you, how do you stay, stay well in the midst of all that?
Cause I just have to imagine, like it's, there's a lot of rough stories again and again.
You know, guys, I'm reminded of, you know, I think about in the book of Numbers when,
when Moses sends out the 12 spies to check out the land and all of the spies see the
same thing, but 10 of them come back and what do they say?
Yeah, this is terrible.
We can't do this.
We can't possibly do this giant, right?
And the other two who see the exact same thing, they come back and they're basically like,
let's go.
Yeah.
God's got this.
And I think for me that plays a lot into this role because I think that situation applies
for all of us that have giants that feel overwhelming in our lives.
When that happens, you have two choices.
You look at the size of the problem or you look at the size of your God and we serve
a big, big God and he is knocking down doors and he's setting kids free.
And I think another part of that is like, I get that idea that, okay, 3,352 is amazing.
That's a ton of kids, but we've also said there's over a million kids being sex trafficked.
But I've also, I've also got to sit down with these rescue kids.
I've gotten to hug these rescue kids and love on these rescue kids and hear the stories
of these rescued kids.
And every single one of those kids matters.
Like, like think about it.
This was a situation with one of your kids, one of your daughters.
Would you want my team to not do whatever they could to get her out?
Even if it meant that there was a million other, you know, for everyone we get out,
it matters.
And I think the other thing you got to think about is the ripple effect.
So like if you go to our website, destinyrescue.org under get involved, there's a tab for advocacy
and there's a, we have documentaries.
There's like five documentaries.
We did one of those a few years ago at Clinton frame and the one we did actually, it's called
you are beautiful.
And it's one girl's story of how she got sold into trafficking by her mom.
And it tells her story of what happened or like growing up, the poor village she was
at, how she ended up going into town and thought she was going to work at a restaurant and
then ends up working at this bar where she's got to sit with men and ends up getting abused
by them.
And she's trying to, you know, talk to her mom about not wanting to do this and her mom
saying, Hey, you, you got to do what you got to do.
And it's just totally condoning this.
And then you actually hear audio files of the night that our agents are with her and
talking back and forth about her in particular to get her out of that situation, which is
really cool.
And then she gets rescued.
She comes into our aftercare.
And one of the things that the title of it is you are beautiful.
And that comes from the fact that day after day, she would show up at our residential
program and the ladies there would constantly say, you are beautiful.
You are beautiful.
But for the longest time she could not receive it because in her mind, the world had changed
the way she thought about herself and her mind.
She was not valuable anymore.
She thought she was going to have to do that work the rest of her life because it was all
she was good for in her mind.
That's what the enemy and the world had taught her was her value.
And so for her to, to start having people speak truth into her life, that she was a
daughter of the King of Kings and had infinite worth.
And, you know, she went on to get introduced and accept Jesus Christ as her savior.
She felt a calling to start working with children.
And as you see her story continue through the documentary, you just see this ripple
effect of hundreds of kids that she's interacting with and pouring into.
So every life that's rescued has a ripple effect of hundreds, if not thousands of other
lives.
You know, part of our empower program or aftercare program, that's a Christian based counseling
program.
And part of that's about forgiveness.
Now, you know, all of us have walked with Jesus long enough to know that sometimes it's
not easy to forgive.
You know, we can, that can be a hard process, but can you imagine talking to kids about
forgiveness who have been raped over and over and over and over again and talking to them
about forgiveness?
She learned about forgiveness.
This person, she went to forgive, she went back home to her home village to forgive her
mom.
Wow.
And it's not, she ended up leading her mom to Christ and it's not in the documentary,
but she ended up ultimately leading her entire family to Christ.
Wow.
So this ripple effect of, you know, it's not just 3,352.
That's how many got rescued.
That's hundreds of thousands of ripple effect lives from that.
And every single one of those matters.
So Chris, you've touched on it some here, but in terms of the aftercare process, because
it's not just about getting them out, it's about what happens to them after they get
out.
What does that look like for you guys?
How do you, how do you put that together for them?
Yeah, you're right.
It doesn't do us any good to get them out if we can't get them free.
Right.
So it has to be a holistic ministry.
So that empower program is, is a kind of trauma resiliency program.
It's a 10 week program that they go through.
Obviously it's not like they're just suddenly healed at the end of that, you know, it's
just getting them started on that, on that healing process.
But so every girl that comes into our care, and I remember earlier we talked about, sometimes
they're reunified with family.
Sometimes they go into government care.
If they come into our care, then they have what we call a freedom plan.
So the freedom plan basically is everybody who works with each girl is going to come
up with a plan that's going to help them succeed for the long haul.
So they're going to look at, you know, what do they need?
Is it a younger kid that was rescued?
Okay.
So education is the need.
Is it older?
Is it a younger child?
Is it a younger generation is going to be the need?
What do they need psychologically?
What do they need medically?
What do they need emotionally, relationally, spiritually, all of those things are going
to be looked at to create a unique freedom plan for that, for that child.
And what's really neat is we, we partner with a lot of local ministries because we can just,
we can grow so much faster that way.
You know, if we go to a new country, if we got to start from ground zero, it takes years
to just build up that stuff.
But if we like, when we were in Zimbabwe, we went there.
There's a, essentially a ministry that's an orphanage there that's been there 25 years,
already well established, already trusted, already has relationships with those local
government leaders.
We come in and start partnering with them.
They have a facility that can hold up to 70 kids.
So kids who are hungry, kids who are homeless, they're able to do that.
They've got some agricultural training on campus that they, you know, done and they've
done this for 25 years, max out at 70 kids.
So we come in and we kind of add three components.
So we add field agents who are trained.
So we offer, we add the staff and the funding and the training so that these field agents
who know how to go out and identify kids who are being sex trafficked can go out and have
those conversations, bring kids into the program quickly.
That whole counseling side, the empower side, we add the staff and the training and the
funding for that.
And then the other part is the TOJ training on the job.
So they go out, they find local business leaders who are interested in things that the girls
want.
So like in Africa, sewing, catering, hair salon are the three big ones that the girls
want.
So we go find business leaders and most of them, because it's connections through the
church are Christian business leaders as well.
So they're not only just, they're not just building skill levels in the kids, they're
mentoring them spiritually, which is awesome.
So let's say, Andy, that you've got, you own a catering business and you agree to take
five of my girls.
So we're gonna, we're gonna come to an agreement on a six month agreement.
And what I'm going to do is I'm going to pay their full salary for two months, two thirds
for two months and a third for two months and return.
You're going to teach them everything they need to know about working and possibly even
running a catering business.
So at the end of six months, you've just got this win-win situation.
If you have openings, you know what you got, you trained them, right.
And if not, they're ready to go out and look for a job somewhere else.
So it's a great win-win situation and you're able to take kids who have only known getting
used and abused on a daily basis.
And within a matter of months, their lives have completely changed and the trajectory
of their lives is completely different.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
I, I think there's just something, you know, to be said for really a multi, a multifaceted
approach, a whole, you said this, a holistic approach to toward healing because you know,
while, while there are spiritual needs, obviously in all, in, in all of that, I mean, following
abuse, they need, they need a way, they need a way to support themselves.
They need, they need a way.
And without that support, by the way, without those skills, whatever they find themselves
very much, very easily back in the similar situation that they were, they were in.
And so, you know, I think for anyone listening, when, when you're thinking about partnering
with an organization, and we certainly hope that you partner with destiny rescue, if that's,
if that's a, something that, you know, an area that you want to pursue and want to support,
I, the thing that I love is that, you know, I think a ministry such as, such as yours
really has to look at the whole, has to look at the whole situation, has to look at the
whole person and empower the whole person toward greater independence, toward greater
healing.
Because, yeah, just to get them out of the situation is one thing.
But yeah, just to give them an opportunity for, for a better future and to see themselves
being able to contribute to their own, like to really stand on their own two feet and
say, I mean, I'm, I'm making a decision to walk forward from this.
That's that's, that's really, really powerful, really powerful.
It's a fun time for us too, from the standpoint of, you know, we've been doing this since
2001.
So we're at the point now where we've got girls who were rescued 10 years ago that are
now project leaders and pouring into the next generation and talking about being able to
completely understand what these girls have gone through.
That's a pretty powerful thing to see.
All right.
So we appreciate you being on the show tonight, but first, before we let you go, we can't
let you go without doing.
And now it's time for the dudes and dads pop quiz.
All right guys.
So pop quiz, if you've never joined us is basically a time that we ask Chris random
questions that he can't prepare for that have nothing to do with the topic of rescue.
So do you get to go first?
You can go first.
Oh, fantastic.
You have one ready?
Um, tonight I'm feeling a little bit off the cuff, so we're gonna, we're gonna try, Chris,
if if you were made to, um, like right now, if I said, okay, you need to grab three things,
I'm sending you on, I'm sending you to a deserted Island.
You gotta grab three things before you leave.
You've only got a matter of minutes to grab them.
What are you taking?
What are you taking with you?
And you're gonna be on this deserted Island.
We're gonna, we're gonna put you on there for, uh, we'll do a couple of weeks.
Okay.
So a couple of weeks on deserted Island.
You got three of them.
So you can take with you.
What are they?
Man?
I'm a guy.
So I'm thinking all food items.
Nothing else seems to really matter at that point.
So and I eat like a five year old.
Oh, nice.
So, um, you know, my, my first thought as you're asking the question was where do I
get a truckload of cherry Pepsi?
Cherry Pepsi.
Cause that's definitely one.
That's that's one of them.
Um, I love pizza, but I'm a little worried about how, you know, yeah.
I'm going to spoil three weeks with some practical concerns here, but you know, because I eat
like a five year old Lunchables, I think have a shelf life of seven and a half years.
So I think you're right.
I can get the bologna and cheese Lunchables and really cherry Pepsi Lunchables on those.
Okay.
Um, I mean, great answer, but I, I would, I would just, uh, I would encourage you to
maybe think, think about, about that more in case, just in case you find yourself, it's
not a, you know, Tom Hanks.
So maybe I should take a volleyball as my third one.
Just right.
Yeah.
All right.
Which bander artist dead or alive would play at your funeral?
Ooh, there we go.
Which band artist.
Man.
So I, I am a huge kid of the eighties.
So you could put together, you know, a whole crew of eighties band.
So I don't know, Def Leppard.
Oh, there we go.
There's a few of those that I would definitely be all about.
I, uh, I once saw Journey and Def Leppard play at the same show together.
They were co-build.
It was an experience.
Yeah.
Last year I went to Penn, Penn state, Journey and Toto.
Nice.
Toto's made a hard comeback.
Chris, in a zombie apocalypse, which one, still have a cherry Pepsi in the zombie apocalypse
of your family members.
Who's the last one standing.
That'd be me.
Okay.
Yeah, definitely with the cherry Pepsi and pizza.
What is it about your skillset that enables you to survive in a zombie apocalypse?
The longest of my family.
Cause I can run the fastest.
Okay.
All right.
Okay.
You just have to be able to outrun one at a time.
That's really what it comes down to.
That's fair.
Don't have to be the fastest always just faster than at least one.
Joel, yours are like the things questions that never would happen.
Mine are like the things that could possibly happen.
The practical and the deeply metaphysical.
Yeah.
All right.
So what's the worst job we've talked about.
We've talked about your best job.
I remember your best job, but a job that matters most to you, but what's your worst job that
you've ever had.
Oh man, I've had a lot of those.
So when I was in college, when I was in college, I did those, you know, the temp agencies where
you just like work for a week or two.
Oh, those are horrid.
Those things.
There was one of those ones where, you know, the, um, like the block glass you get for
like basement windows and the guy that goes in that does the mortar work and everything,
he goes in like an hour earlier and then we go in and we've got the little, like the silver
hand tool that you go and scrape all the excess mortar out of.
And you got to go around twice and do that.
And then you got to go around with like one of those green scrubby pads.
And then you got to go around with like a wool pad and like do that.
And like you're doing that for hours and you can't get it enough with your, your, with
the gloves on.
So you got to do it bare handed.
And then you get all those like little silver splinters in your fingers.
And then you ever have, if you get that and you get near anything hot, you touch anything
hot, it like, it's terrible.
Like I did that for a week.
That was bored.
And then Woolie's fish market being in the refrigerator for eight hours a day with like
nice little stylish hair net and saran wrap and fish for eight hours.
That's right up there too.
Okay.
Um, the two for one there.
I appreciate it.
Bonus.
Uh, Chris, what book should we be reading right now?
Aside from the Bible, I'll just, I'll put the copy out in there.
What book should you be reading right now?
Gosh, what was the last one I did?
Yeah, this is not deeply spiritual at all.
I just did the latest hunger games one, the prequel one, the ballad and songbirds and
snakes or whatever.
Total surprise to me.
Did not, I did not have him.
I didn't have him.
See, I didn't have him.
I didn't read the books.
But I feel like, you know, with your, you know, zombie apocalypse and island desertion,
the whole hunger games feels like it kind of fits in.
It's on brand.
Yeah.
On brand.
A hundred percent.
Nice.
Yeah.
Uh, my favorite, my last question is what's the favorite thing that you've bought this
year?
Besides cherry Pepsi.
Um, let's see.
It could be pizza.
I mean, that's maybe, it might be the chief ice cream I had.
Oh, I'm trying to think of any, if I've done any like, you know, it's the thing that stinks
as you like get older, you get more excited about projects that just wouldn't excite you.
Yeah.
Like I'm excited about the fact that in a couple of months I got a, an inch of gravel
coming to cover the whole driveway, you know, like that was never something that would have
excited me 10 years ago.
I'd be excited about that.
Yeah, me too.
So I'm with the truck in, uh, we got the truck in cause we're putting in pastures for the
horses last summer and the reverse decided to stop working.
Oh, no.
Got the transmission fixed.
So my truck actually, every time you pull in the parking lot, you gotta be like, all
right, where do I park?
How am I going to get out of here?
And now I have reverse.
So that's probably the best, uh, best money I've spent this year.
The reverse.
Fantastic.
Well, congratulations cause you know, there's zombies.
You gotta have reverse.
You hit them, but you got to back up and check.
Well, congratulations, Chris.
You have successfully passed the dudes and heads pop quiz.
Well done.
Uh, we do thank you so much for joining us tonight.
This is super helpful.
Um, a really great, uh, a great topic, a great thing to be reflecting on Chris.
Where, where can people find out all about whether it's you or destiny rescue, where
do we want to send them?
So destiny rescue.org is our website.
And so there's a ton of great information on that.
We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Tik TOK as well.
Um, if you're listening to this really soon, then just come on over to Clinton frame on
the 26th in the morning.
What time service said I'm going to be here.
We're taking 10 30 at the 10 30 service on the 26th here at Clinton frame.
So I'll tell you two big fundraisers that are coming up this fall.
Just so you know, is August 15th through the 18th at community church Waterford over on
County road.
21 past cultures is the sale that saves.
That's a garage sale that started with the idea to rescue one kid, $1,500 to rescue a
kid.
And as of right now, they have raised enough over eight years with this year being the
eighth one, but we've added corporate sponsors this year.
So we've got businesses getting behind it and they have raised enough to rescue 125
kids.
Wow.
Four day garage sale.
And it's all about setting kids free.
So then August 15th to the 18th and then September 7th, keep it on your calendar.
We don't know the exact location, but the Goshen rotary does a freedom walk every year.
It's been at the Goshen high school the last three years.
They're talking about making it like a five K 10 K this year.
So it could be at Fiddler.
I'm not really sure exactly, but if you follow Goshen rotary, they have a Facebook page and
you can keep an eye on that, but set aside that date September 7th, but two of our actually
biggest fundraisers in the country right here in the Goshen area.
That's awesome.
Well get on board folks.
Get on board, get over there.
Support destiny rescue.
And Andy's waiting to touch the button.
Are you touching the button?
He did.
All right.
Everybody, as always, get over to dudes and dads, dudesanddads.com.
Yeah.
I wasn't sure where you were going with the button.
I didn't know if you were going to stay on the button.
We're going to start.
Okay.
Well, we're good.
Well, we'll machine over here.
Dues of that podcast at gmail.com.
If you've got any show ideas, responses, harsh rebukes, whatever you want to send over there,
feel free to email us.
And you can always, always, always call our voicemail, five seven four two one three 87
zero two, and you won't wait Joel or I up.
You will not, but we will listen to it and possibly put it on air.
Guys, we're so grateful for each and every one of you for tuning on.
Remember, share us, like us, do all that.
We appreciate it.
Subscribe to us.
All those good things.
And until next time, we wish you grace and peace.
Bye.
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