[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to How to Be Human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discussed Avoidance.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: Hello?

[00:00:22] Anna Toonk: Hi.

[00:00:24] Nina Endrst: How are you?

[00:00:25] Anna Toonk: I'm all right. I'm thinking because I had a bowl of split pea soup today and enjoyed it that I'm officially an adult as a. Yeah, I know

[00:00:35] Nina Endrst: there's only one vegetable. I really have it out for, and it's peas. Not into it.

[00:00:39] Anna Toonk: I love peas, man. Any vegetable that basically is like sugar in a vegetable form. I'm into it. Like corn carrots, all of that. I'm like,

[00:00:51] Nina Endrst: I love of corn either, except for I'm really. On the cob, but like, if you ever, if I find like pieces of corn in my, anything, it's not, it's not going to be a good day.

[00:01:01] Anna Toonk: Really?

[00:01:02] Nina Endrst: No, not into it.

[00:01:03] Anna Toonk: Oh my God.

[00:01:04] Nina Endrst: Nope. Don't like sugary vegetables. No,

[00:01:07] Anna Toonk: I find it. So every once in a while I find it fascinating when you meet someone who is very, I think naturally thin and just very naturally in an intuitive eater, which I think is you. And I'm like, What does this world like so fascinating,

[00:01:24] Nina Endrst: like ask me anything,

[00:01:26] Anna Toonk: you know, I mean, I pretty much like everything. I pretty much eat everything, you know? And like, and I do love corn so much that I'm like really, but I find that the specifics of, of palette and, and all of that fascinating, like you all quite particular.

[00:01:45] And I think like, like I never know. Issue with it. But like, I think it's weird when people get upset and are like, what is it like

[00:01:53] Nina Endrst: not to be like this? I don't know. I don't know what it's like to be any other way.

[00:02:00] Anna Toonk: We are to the idea that like, Preferences would be shocking that people are like

[00:02:06] Nina Endrst: when I was in college, that was, you know, all of my friends were like heating subs, you know?

[00:02:11] And

[00:02:13] Anna Toonk: honestly, that's what makes me laugh about you. I, the fact that I'm like not too far away from being a raccoon and so. I last summer, I kid you not. Or like when I was like making dinner, I was like heating up like the grossest case. So, and I just laugh thinking about our partnership and like how different we are in certain respects.

[00:02:35] And I do think about that. Like, I think about like, when exactly you in college and everyone's like Doritos and you're like, are they organic? You know, like,

[00:02:45] Nina Endrst: or people will be ordering Chinese, but at three in the morning and I'd be drunk and I'm like, no, thanks. I'm good. I'll just like nibble on. Pizza crust.

[00:02:53] I don't have a weird food issue, foodie shoes, like I don't think anyway, but I been very specific about and particular about my food for a long time, because number one, I'm very privileged in that I've been had access to organic food since I was a little kid. So that's really all it that I know, but I do acknowledge that, that.

[00:03:15] Uh, major privilege and thinking about that a lot, especially with avoidance, which is what, oops, the cat's out of the bag. That's

[00:03:21] Anna Toonk: a blue bag. That's what we're talking about today. It's also in the episode title.

[00:03:25] Nina Endrst: So wait, nevermind you guys. I think every episode is a surprise, apparently. I mean, that's hilarious.

[00:03:32] Cause every time I'm like waiting for you to say it and. Everybody

[00:03:36] Anna Toonk: already knows. That's fine. I, you know, it's funny. Cause I think of it from a, I guess like a show flow perspective of like generally when you say is then I know we've moved from chitchat into the meat of it. But when I was looking at avoidance for us and I do have definitions, something that occurred to me that, um, I think.

[00:03:59] You know, kind of hilarious. It took 16 episodes for, I mean, I guess we were doing this anyway for me to be like, I not only want to look up what it is. I want to look up and read about why we do it. So I have that for us as well, because that's something you and I talk about. You know, off Mike a lot is like what we learned from doing this and how we're like, oh, I'm avoiding, or the podcast from doing that, the, a pod doing the pod.

[00:04:29] Got it. Just in general where like how much, you know, we learn. And I feel like something I didn't realize I was starting to think about, but was, was that like, I think something that doing this has really emphasized to me is like, Kind of, there are no accidents. Like you're not doing anything for no reason.

[00:04:48] You know, that generally it is in response to something. So with avoidance, it was like the perfect one that it's like, oh yeah, there's a clear relationship as do. If you're avoiding why you're doing it. So avoidance is defined as a noun. The action of keeping away from. Doing something one third of cancer desk could be prevented by avoidance of smoking.

[00:05:14] Interesting example. Yeah. Don't love it because I don't also don't love the whole narrative that like, if someone smoked or did something like them having cancers. Cool. And if they didn't, then it's tragic. It's like that sucks. Cancer sucks. So let's keep that out of ignorance. Yeah, fuck you. Look you law.

[00:05:32] The action of repudiating, nullifying, or rendering void, a decree or contract insurance underwriters could not rely on non-disclosure to justify avoidance of the contract. Oh

[00:05:45] Nina Endrst: my God. I just fell asleep

[00:05:49] Anna Toonk: psychologically. And this is from psychology tools.com, which I just want to shout out and say, if therapy feels tricky or like you don't have access or you can't afford it, which I understand a lot of my income goes to therapy.

[00:06:07] I was impressed by the tool. So psychology tools.com seems to be a website where you can both like, learn about psych psychological things. And they have a lot of tools. They have a lot of like worksheets. They have a lot of things about anxiety. You know, I only read things. I didn't go behind, they have a paywall, I didn't go behind it.

[00:06:24] Or, and they have all these courses, but I was actually sort of like encouraged by it as a resource. And it felt like something that people should know more about. But anyway, I love that. Yeah, they gave was like very cool on these worksheets. They give about like, okay, like we've identified, this is what's going on.

[00:06:42] Here are some things you can do, like in tracking that so you can stay present. And like, I was very nonjudgmental, very non, it felt navigable. If you were doing it on your own with support, you know, that like maybe, um, it might be a tool for some people to investigate. So. Psychologically speaking avoidance is defined as a safety seeking behavior.

[00:07:05] And so what does that mean? Safety seeking behaviors, our response to a feared catastrophe and situations that are perceived as dangerous people naturally act to keep themselves safe. And in parentheses and even have automatic evolved responses to promote safety, think fight or flight. Unfortunately, while safety behaviors can lead to a feeling of relief in the short term and are thus reinforced, they have the effects of reinforcing beliefs about threat lead to beliefs going on, challenged or lead to other unintended consequences.

[00:07:42] Avoidance and escape referred to behaviors where people either do not enter a situation avoidance or leave situations after they have entered escape. Distraction is considered to be a subtle form of avoidance behavior. Stop calling me out like that. Psychology tools.com. I was like, we're almost out.

[00:08:02] Nope. Distraction. Almost. Avoidance and escape or natural mechanisms for coping with many kinds of pain and trauma. When used as a part of a repertoire of other coping mechanisms, escape and avoidance can be considered adaptive. However, they are considered problematic when used too frequently or when they are used to the exclusion of other strategies.

[00:08:25] And. Just something I found interesting and wanted to add from very well mind.com that also had a lot of, if you, if you are someone who finds that you are dealing with avoidance, and that that's something that you feel like is going to cropping up in your life as someone who also deals with avoidance, I've found very well.

[00:08:41] Mine also had a lot of resources as well, but they said avoidance behaviors and escape coping is a maladaptive form of coping in which a person changes their behavior to. Thinking about feeling or doing difficult things in the long run and avoidance coping response distress tends to exacerbate anxiety rather than alleviate it.

[00:09:03] I had copied that because they were saying how avoidance has such a tricky relationship with anxiety. Totally. And that they're like avoidance can help a lot. Like when you're first sort of realizing you have anxiety and you're grappling with anxiety and you're learning tools to like retrain your mind that if we didn't, it's like a really helpful one, you know, that you go, just don't think about it.

[00:09:29] You know, like redirect your mind if you're worried about flying. Try not to think about flying dah, dah, dah. They're like the problem is though, is that. You didn't ever test it. You don't come up with a plan. Like, is it realistic to think you will never be on a plane, you know? And they're like, then you don't reinforce and learn more positive behaviors and coping strategies of like, well, what if I tried.

[00:09:54] You know, acupuncture before I get on a flight. So I'm more relaxed or what if I talked to, you know, a psychiatrist and get, you know, maybe Xanax for that or whatever, you know, that it's like, instead it just become, you just go in a loop. And something I thought was also interesting that I read somewhere was that procrastination rumination, and there was one more are also forums.

[00:10:21] Of avoidance, which I thought if you had said to me avoid it, like rumination as a form of avoidance, I would have been like, I don't know. I'm like maybe, you know, like, I wouldn't think that much about it, you know, like I would have been. Okay. You know, and, but then, oh, passive. Yeah. Procrastination, passive aggressiveness and ruminations.

[00:10:45] Rumination are examples of unhelpful coping mechanisms that we may consciously or unconsciously use to avoid tackling a tough issue or facing thoughts and feelings that are not comfortable.

[00:11:04] Nina Endrst: It makes so much sense when you say it. The one that I feel like I would know is procrastination, but the rumination and passive aggressiveness all gives me a lot of peace for, you know, just that little tidbit of knowledge is helpful.

[00:11:22] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I felt like, I mean, I'm a deeply avoidant person. Well, you know what I actually realized through this, then I'm not actually as avoidant as I think I am, you know, that I realized what I have thought was avoidance was often, I didn't know how to ask for more time or ask for what I needed.

[00:11:45] Were you

[00:11:46] Nina Endrst: someone when you were in school, you know, some people had like extra time to take tests.

[00:11:51] Anna Toonk: Did you have that? Not until I got into standardized testing, but I just, because if you have learning disabilities, you can ask for it. So I did it just to have it, but I ultimately, I was the person who would race through and then not want to check my work and then like, oh yeah, get things wrong.

[00:12:09] Cause I had. You don't miss something or whatever. So I was the other way. It

[00:12:16] Nina Endrst: just makes me think of like being a kid and avoiding even that asking for help or asking for more time, if you weren't, if that wasn't provided for you or people didn't think you needed it. It's just such an interesting thing.

[00:12:32] How these small little seemingly little things add up to. Much bigger and you know, more like deeper issues as we grow older, you know, it's just, I feel like I used to procrastinate. I know I used to procrastinate so much as a kid and so much as a young adult and then. I couldn't do that. When I got into the work world, especially not in entertainment or fashion, you could be fired or just cut.

[00:13:05] And so I had to like go into like super mode, but then I transferred that to avoidance in, you know, avoiding my emotional wellbeing or deep seated fears or anxiety. And you

[00:13:21] Anna Toonk: know, oh, you didn't want to do a casual pass on your deep seated fear. It's no, it

[00:13:26] Nina Endrst: wasn't on my list. I was just really fucking busy.

[00:13:32] But it's just, it's the same, you know, it's, it's different, but it's, it's so similar. And I just look back at all these versions of myself and I have so much empathy now where I didn't, you know, a couple of years ago, maybe even, but, oh my God, like that little girl who hated school, who just really needed a different type of approach, different.

[00:13:56] You know, teachers, I mean, I don't know if I was tested. I probably would've tested in for a learning disability. I would think. I mean, I don't want to throw that around, but I would, I would say that that was, would

[00:14:08] Anna Toonk: be pretty likely. Yeah. If somebody works with you and is very familiar with them, I would say.

[00:14:13] So I think everybody has them to be honest. Wait, why do you think I have

[00:14:16] Nina Endrst: one?

[00:14:18] Anna Toonk: I think because. I think the way you think and the way you want to approach work. Like I think you struggle with, with going between a bunch of different mindsets, which I don't know if it's necessarily a bad thing, you know, but I think you're very like, Literal like what's here.

[00:14:40] What's like what right now, you know, like, which is why I think we compliment each other, but that's also, anytime there's something, as it was explained to me is anytime people are like, can only really work one way is often because it's, they've, they've adapted to suit their brain. And if you have to adapt to suit your brain, it's often because you're like, You're outside, what's considered normal, you know, so that, I mean, that's just some of it for me, like, I mean, but I'm, again, someone who paints with a very liberal brush.

[00:15:16] And I also think that everybody with a strong areas placement has a form of add. So yeah. I also think attention span wise. Yeah. My

[00:15:26] Nina Endrst: attention span is. Short. I mean, when I'm doing something that I really love and enjoy, but see, I think I, it's a way that I avoid too. I mean, I've tried to be more flexible, but it overwhelms me to be, it's so interesting that you think I'm literal.

[00:15:42] I don't think I've ever.

[00:15:44] Anna Toonk: Out of myself. Well, yeah. Well, cause it'll be funny, like Nina and I have a biweekly like production meeting about what's going on and what we're doing. And I think, yeah, I've seen that where you get overwhelmed like that. If it's you have a window of what you can kind of focus on, I think, which I don't think that's necessarily.

[00:16:07] I'm putting no meaning behind that. It's an observation as someone trying to also like w you know, to work with you and not, it doesn't help me if I'm overwhelming, you know, you know, so it's something that I've noticed and been like, oh, and I've also learned, like, to prevent that overwhelm sometimes. It's on me to also be clear of like, where I think something fits into things of like, I'm not shifting priority.

[00:16:36] I think you're, you're very focused on priority. And so what does make sense? You know, I think that

[00:16:44] Nina Endrst: it's just so interesting to see herself, you know, in someone else's through someone else's eyes. That's very true. I think that's something that I have prioritized. I've prioritize things in a certain way, because I've found that I would avoid things or procrastinate on things.

[00:17:03] If I felt like I didn't have like a clear kind of. Vision or understanding of, of like the purpose or where it was going or why it was going there. And if I have a lot of looming things or things that I can't connect the dots on, I, it does overwhelm me. So that's so interesting because I felt like I was just like, that was me and inside my brain.

[00:17:26] And nobody

[00:17:26] Anna Toonk: else knew that. No, but I'm also, I find it interesting. You know what I mean? So I don't know if someone else would necessarily. Notice it, you know, like we're very close now. It's true. I do think that that's also people get caught up in like, you know, like, I think it's interesting when we say things like work styles, like priority and everything.

[00:17:48] It's like, everybody thinks there's this universal. You know, like you and I could write down what we think is like priority for soul right now. And I bet I bet 90% of it would match. And yet we would both have 10% that we think is different in terms of priority, you know, like would be our personal priority probably for it that I think that's something as I'm getting older, that I'm surprised that I'm willing to.

[00:18:17] Swim a little bit more into link and let go of that and realize like it's like things can be individual listic and I think, I don't know if it's, if it's a reaction to Trump or like the Penn dummy or what, but I went for a while. I felt. A little grossed out by all the individualism and all the binaries and all of this stuff.

[00:18:41] Then I was like, oh my God. You know? Cause it just didn't feel like it was going anywhere positive or helpful. You know, it's like on the one hand, we're saying everybody has these individual rights, but we're ignoring the fact that we live in communities. Like I'm like that doesn't make sense to me. And then being like, well, I'm this I'm that?

[00:18:59] And like, it felt like everybody is getting more entrenched and just debating and things like that. That when I started to be like, oh, we can all find things a different way. And it's like all these roads, but, you know, and it's funny. I was like, Year or two ago, there was something that went down with a dude and I was like, I'm so fed up with these fucking avoidant dudes.

[00:19:23] And then I was like, if you, if you want clarity, you have to be clear. And I realized, and that made me start looking at where I'm avoided and start looking at like all the different ways. And it was interesting kind of coming back to it after I had done. Kind of focused on it in my personal life for a little bit, seeing this complex web that it sort of fits under and the different reasons, like why you would be doing stuff that like something I've been thinking about a lot is like, it's like truth and reality.

[00:19:58] And like, I think I have this false belief that I think we can all get on, like mutually agreed upon like truth or reality. And I don't. I think that that's possible. And I think the more I let go of that, the easier my life gets in the sense of just sort of going like, oh, this is true for them. Or this is dah, dah, dah, dah, or dah, dah, dah.

[00:20:21] And I had a friend call me out and she was like, I feel like you're being avoided. And, and I said, I don't know that I am. I think sometimes you don't like when I tell, you know, and. That was interesting to me as well of like, I think I get sensitive sometimes that people think that I am being ovoid it.

[00:20:42] But like, I also think there's sometimes bad at hearing me,

[00:20:48] Nina Endrst: like, when you say no directly, or you don't engage with the conversation

[00:20:53] Anna Toonk: or this was about hanging out and I'm not the best person. If you always ask about a late, like a last minute, Hey, You know, and she was like, It's like, you never say yes. And I was like, I don't know what to tell you.

[00:21:10] Like, I'm not the best for a last minute. Hang, like I'm a pretty scheduled person, you know, like our best shot at actually getting to hang out would be to plan it. And she would be like Coca Cola and then like would never do it. And then we'd get mad. And I was like, this feels like both of us, like, you're not listening to me.

[00:21:28] You don't want to change the way you're socializing, which is fun. Why would you change that for me? If you want to see me, I'm telling you the pathway to that and you're ignoring it. So I don't know that that's me being avoided when I'm just like, no, you know, like on a random Thursday at like seven o'clock, Hey, want to grab dinner?

[00:21:45] It's like, no, I don't

[00:21:47] Nina Endrst: so intrusive.

[00:21:49] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I don't, you know, a 10 o'clock on a Saturday. Hey, I'm in your neighborhood. Went to grab a drink. No, like, I mean, I want to be that person. Who's like, oh my God, girl. You know, throwing some lipstick and I'll be there, but I'm not, I'm just not, you know?

[00:22:05] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I mean, I was in my like twenties maybe, but definitely no,

[00:22:09] Anna Toonk: no,

[00:22:18] Nina Endrst: I feel like I'm avoidant last but different ways. Like, I, I would love to be the person who, when my Legos. I can find a better balance of doing something for myself that doesn't involve being horizontal. She kind of checked out, like I'm so tired at the end of the day that I often feel guilty or like I'm being avoidant when I don't, you know, like listen to an audio book.

[00:22:50] I was in a good spell there for a bit where I'd be listening to audio books or, I mean, I can't really, I mean, I could, I could go downstairs and read or whatever, but I don't want to, and I kind of have. Dialogue with myself of, is there something you don't want to see or be in relationship with? And then I'm like, no, you're just fucking tired.

[00:23:14] It's okay. But I do feel like I'm watching too much TV and that for me is something I'm really sensitive about. Because I feel like people are so judgmental about

[00:23:24] Anna Toonk: it. Yes. You're bringing this up. Thank

[00:23:27] Nina Endrst: you. Thank you. And I grew up, my dad was a TV critic and we watched so much TV, but I was also outside all the time.

[00:23:35] I had a really good balance. I mean, I also grew up, we grew up, you

[00:23:38] Anna Toonk: know, when

[00:23:39] Nina Endrst: it was okay to walk around your neighborhood. Yes. And not. So I felt always like I had this wonderful balance of yeah. Of indoor, outdoor, whatever. And I love TV and I loved it was an art, you know, to me and my family. And that's how we perceived it.

[00:23:56] So when I grew up, when people were like, oh no, we don't have a TV. You know, especially like the super kind of granola people. And I'm like, well, that's nice. I mean, or my child doesn't watch. I'm like, oh, my kid has an iPad. Like, yeah. Yep. That happened. So I just feel like they're. Times when I have to check myself, am I being avoidant or my escaping, or am I doing something that just isn't like seen as acceptable to a certain person or people.

[00:24:27] And then I'm internalizing that as a negative behavior.

[00:24:30] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Yeah. I think you absolutely are. I mean, cause I know how you spend your time. I've seen it. I know you're up at six o'clock in the morning. It has to be like party time, crazy for you to get to sleep. A cause you know, Milo's out, you have sessions starting at 8:00 AM, which I think is fucking crazy.

[00:24:54] I mean, like I'm impressed. I'm impressed that you're up and with it have had your breakfast, like I'm, I'm impressed. I mean in, in you in way, switch off with, you know, childcare and doing homeschool and like all of that, like I've been there. Your life is a fucking sprint until 7:00 PM and Milo goes to bed.

[00:25:17] I mean, I got into bed and was like, I don't know that I've ever been so tired. You know, she must've been really, I was so tired. Oh my God, it wasn't Friday. It was Saturday. I got independence. Saturday was like, oh my God, this every day they do this everyday, you know? And it's not. I think it was, oh, it was interesting.

[00:25:36] I meant to tell you this. I found some parent on insert. My Instagram algorithm has gone bonkers and it's now like, it's, it's like giant families in Utah and like teen moms. It's like, I'm like, who do you think I am like? And it was funny though. It was a mom that has learning disability and add, and she was like, It was listing these things that I've talked to you about of like, do you ever get tired of this, of dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.

[00:26:01] And it related to being overstimulated as a parent, that it was a form of like where these things then kind of intersect with parenting. And I was like, oh, that made me, it made me feel so much better because it's like, I, don't not white kids. I like kids a lot, but like I do find it overwhelming and it helped me figure out why it's the sensory overload for me.

[00:26:23] And. Ah, it was one of those crazy things that you and I laugh about about like the deep, deep, deep pointing. And she was like, do you feel like they're interrupting your thoughts? And I was like, I absolutely do. And I was like, oh my God. And she was like, it relates to this and dah, dah, dah, dah. And I was like, let me go research that.

[00:26:41] Just some random check, you know, and Instagram, like, I don't know that that's my medical authority and it turns out it's a thing. And I was like, oh, that's really interesting. You know? So I feel like if come, you know, when the night falls, the loneliness doesn't call for you. If the escapism does like. I think that's really fair.

[00:27:02] And I also want to touch on like I, as someone who also absolutely loves TV loves it. Is it also garbage? Absolutely. Is it also like one of the most, like, I think unifying art mediums, there is yes. I believe in the power of the low brow and the high brow, you know, like. And I think that people who are really smug about not only TVs forget that that's not a personality.

[00:27:27] So

[00:27:32] it drives me fucking crazy. It drives me fucking crazy. They're a better person. Cause you don't watch TV. Like. You're not like whatever, like, you know, two seconds, like thrill that gave you at a party to announce, like, was worth it because you're missing a lot of joy and jollies and like, what does anything, what is reading the book?

[00:27:53] It's all escapism. And I think like you and I talk a lot about like, you know, like ho hustle, culture, and productivity, and like all this sorta and capitalism and how much we're like. You know, we want to make a decent living. We want to do work. We feel really good about, we want to put work out in the world that we feel like is in aligned with the people we want to be like, things like that.

[00:28:14] And we, and we want to be paid for it, you know, not a crazy idea. We don't want to kill ourselves working all the time. We don't want to miss our lives because we're just like working and things like that. And I think that that desire that like now that you have this free time, now that you're technically on Nina time that you're like not maximizing it enough.

[00:28:34] I know directly a part of capitalism. Totally.

[00:28:36] Nina Endrst: It's sick. It's like, you know, I have two businesses. I'm this is not like my resume, but it's like, I have two businesses. I'm 36, almost 37 years old. I'm an Aries. I way not. I'm kidding. It's like I have a lot going on. But then I think about too, like, well, my life compared to.

[00:28:55] A single mom. It, you know, and I do, I feel this guilt, but then I also feel the weight of capitalism in shore. Like I need to be maximizing my time. I need to be like learning more. I should know, you know, I, I, sometimes I get off the phone with you and I'm like, how does she know. Backs. Like, she's just an encyclopedia.

[00:29:20] I get

[00:29:20] Anna Toonk: stoned and I read

[00:29:22] Nina Endrst: right. And I'm like, should I be? And I think I've always been really. Insecure about that because the going back to what, the way I was taught or the, what I was taught was that I didn't fit the mold of like an intellectual in my school and my, in that system. So I was labeled as something else, you know, but I wasn't.

[00:29:46] Like an artist in, you know, elementary school. So I was just kinda like a bad kid. So that kind of follows me. And even though I've healed a lot of it, I think about it. Like I always have to be bettering myself. And so I actually, even when I'm not being avoidant, I think that I am at times. And it's so sad because I need to be focused on the times where I actually am being avoided.

[00:30:11] Anna Toonk: Well, it's interesting you say that because something, I. I mean, and we can cut this out if it makes you uncomfortable. No, you can say whatever you want. I've noticed sometimes when you and I need to really sit down and put like thoughts to paper, you're very avoided. Like what kind of thoughts? If we have to write something, if we have to, if it's going to be like, you need to really sit down and put your thought or like, uh, when Isabella wanted all our references for this.

[00:30:41] And I'm like, that's some kind of resistance she's got, I don't, I don't know. And it's funny when we did the thing about total edge, I was like, oh, there it is. That got it. You know? Cause I would be like more than anything. Like I think when someone's being avoidant is like, I don't really care. Why anyone does anything in a way.

[00:31:00] I just more, don't like not understanding. I like to

[00:31:05] Nina Endrst: do things in private and that's my that's where I've I have this vivid memory. I did not think this was going to become like an elementary school memory lane, but I have this vivid memory of me being, do you remember the game around the. Yes, fucking evil game.

[00:31:21] And I hated math. I'm still really bad at math and that game haunts me and fuck it.

[00:31:32] Anna Toonk: Let the healing begin today.

[00:31:35] Nina Endrst: Let there be light, let there be light. And so I remember this kid who was like, I mean, he probably went to Harvard. Early. He was so incredibly brilliant and he's like standing up and I'm sitting down or what.

[00:31:56] And I would just like, be like, I mean, I can't compete with this, you know, but I, I almost was so relieved that he was the person, because I knew I was going to get any of the answers. And then, you know, I think it goes on and other people come, or maybe you're just out the first round, which I always was.

[00:32:11] But I think that has so much to do with why I avoid doing things in public. Like, and even if it's two people I like to do work in private and then presented. I don't like to work with people. It's hard. I shouldn't say I don't like it. It's hard for me to like, be in the moment with eyes on me or ears and not feel like.

[00:32:33] Crushing around the world.

[00:32:46] Anna Toonk: yeah, I think that, I understand that cause like, I feel the self-consciousness, but I think like, I don't know, like in so many ways, I, I feel really lucky that some of that stuff about, I think. Self-expression and the vulnerability that comes with putting things out there. Just get over at such a young age.

[00:33:10] And I remember I was with my grandmother and I was just sort of like, you know, like they're telling me I'm not stupid, but I'm sort of afraid I'm stupid. You know, like I'm a little worried about all this. And I was like eight, you know? And she was like, Uh, and let me tell ya, you're never going to be the most beautiful girl in the world, and you're never going to be the ugliest girl in the world.

[00:33:34] You're always going to fall somewhere in the middle. So just be you. And I was like, that's somewhat depressing, also liberating, you know, but she was like, there's no way, like, she's like any room you, you enter, just go ahead and assume you're not the smartest and you're not the dumbest. And something about that really liberated.

[00:33:55] Then I was like, whatever, I'm putting out, like whatever thoughts or whatever. And then I think going to art school and having to work in groups and having to be in critique. I mean, I had professors take photographs that I thought were good, you know, like I wouldn't have put them on a wall, otherwise rip them off, rip them in half.

[00:34:15] And you're like, wow. Okay. Okay. You know, and if you can survive that sort of stuff, like you start to realize like how meaningless. People's opinions and all of that is, you know, that like so much of that stuff has been internal for me. And so I think like I can be avoidant when, like, I haven't worked it out yet.

[00:34:35] You know? Like it's a different way of like when you and I are working out something. I'm so annoying to you. Cause there'll be like, what about, and I'm like, ma that's not it. And you're like, fine. I'll be over here, like talk to you tomorrow, you know? And I'm like, what about? And you're like, it like, it's bedtime by, you know, cause I'm like, I, like, I will feel it, you know, like it'll click into place for me.

[00:35:00] And I think linked, like I have a hard time sometimes like locking in or whatever, but that eight so interesting. Like something too, for me, like if I am being avoided about something, like, I don't tend to dress it up or call it something else I tend to go. Yeah. I'm afraid enough and go, why? And nine times out of 10, almost like without a doubt, it's because I'm overwhelmed and often I've like tried to sort of float it out there.

[00:35:34] As we've discussed on this podcast before, like don't, y'all be like me be better. Don't float it out to people who are going to be the worst to float it by. I have a, I have to do a bunch of stuff to my apartment that I'm very overwhelmed by home stuff. Overwhelms me. I'm very homestead avoidant. And I mentioned it before.

[00:35:54] To my mom, who's like, oh, home genius. You know, like she's just interiors and homes. And she has like, like, she'll avoid doing this other stuff, but like has no problems like calling a million contractors and getting all these bids done and dah, dah, dah, dah, I'm staying the course. And I'm like, That sounds like a nightmare.

[00:36:12] I want no part of it. Like, I'll just, I will go gray gardens. I will let a raccoon fall through the ceiling and be like, I guess you live here now. Like, cause it just overwhelms me. And then a friend of mine who's like done several renovations, has done it in an apartment and in homes and dah, dah, dah, I finally reached out to them and was like, you know, I have the scene going on in my bathroom.

[00:36:34] Like. What do you think I'm looking at? Like, what am I, you know, and it was just really helpful. One to realize like, nobody has it really figured out. Like, I felt really what it is. My avoidance was stemming from. I feel like a loser that as an adult, as a homeowner, I should know these things and I had to go like, but you've never been here before.

[00:36:55] You've never had to like, redo your bathroom because of a leak, like. This is new territory, you know? So why would you need to be an expert, but avoiding it is now making you feel like shit, because you feel like you're living in like not good, you know, like it doesn't feel good.

[00:37:13] Nina Endrst: I think I avoid asking for help.

[00:37:15] Same. I know I do. It's so bad. I mean, I don't like to say bad, but it's so bad. It's just so frustrating because I'm like, why, what is that? You know, I mean, My husband is like, I'm here to help you, you know? And I really have been challenged in that relationship to be like, I bet you're in a partnership, man.

[00:37:36] It's okay to ask for help. Right. And he does so much as you've seen for our family. And I'm very,

[00:37:44] Anna Toonk: and with a smile, like, oh ways like should teach classes on how to be like a really cool ass dude, because it has thing because he. I felt like after I. Yeah. Obviously you've talked about like, I didn't feel like, I didn't know why, but after meeting him and seeing you all in action, I was like, I'm changed.

[00:38:05] Like I have a new faith, you know, he does, he fully does like, so I would say that to

[00:38:12] Nina Endrst: people. I don't like to talk about him a lot because I don't want to be that person. Who's like, oh my God, my husband is so amazing because it's, you know, there's a lot out there and like, it just feels. Like, well,

[00:38:28] Anna Toonk: also a lot of the women saying that are talking about men who look and act like thumbs, you know?

[00:38:32] So I

[00:38:34] Nina Endrst: thought I can remove myself from the mic, so I don't cackle into it. It looked like it's so accurate. Why do all the guys, I went to high school with look like thumbs. It's unbelievable. Like you're five.

[00:38:49] Anna Toonk: Changed one diaper three years. Oh my God. It's amazing. And I'm like, I'm really

[00:38:56] Nina Endrst: sad. And like, that's such something about our culture.

[00:39:00] Speaking of avoidance, that drives me fucking crazy. Is that. Whether I was thinking about this while I was driving today, you know, like we, we were driving back from getting coffee and I left my house today. Speaking of speaking of not avoiding something. And there was a man in the street who was obviously suffering some sort of mental health issue and he w he wouldn't get out of the middle of the street.

[00:39:24] And I was like, this is not good. And he didn't even notice that I was driving by him, which I was scared to do. I had to do, and then I looked back and he was just standing in the middle of the street and yeah, and I was just thinking to myself, like the visceral feeling I had in my body was fear to be honest, like I had my kid in the back.

[00:39:46] I am really, I really don't trust human beings right now. For many reasons and I'm, and I want to not instill that in my child, but I also want him to be aware of his surroundings, et cetera. But I was just thinking like how much we avoid that type of scenario or that truth. And it's, like I said to Milo very purposefully, I was like that man is suffering from.

[00:40:12] A mental health issue. And it's really important that you're aware of your surroundings as you grew up, but also that you understand that those people need help. Right. And we all need help. And I wanted him to know that. The minute he saw something like that. And I want to keep speaking to him about that because I don't want him to avoid people like that.

[00:40:32] And I remember being a young kid in San Francisco when I was four. It was the first time I was there and the homeless population was, you know, it's still is like a huge, huge issue. Yeah. Unhoused people. And we went to this really fancy restaurant and I was probably, I don't know, six or so. And I asked the waiter for pen and paper and I didn't ever refuse to eat.

[00:40:55] And I started writing notes to people about people who. Didn't have homes on the street and asking them to help them and asking them to look at them. And I went out on the streets of San Francisco and handed them out to people, strangers. And my mom was obviously very proud, but I remember being, I remember just like, why are these people walking by?

[00:41:15] Why are they not acknowledging these humans? This is awful. And it was the, it was the first memory I have of watching people just avoid a human. And it's really sad that that's how. Distant. We are from ourselves and community and truth, but something that way has taught me and, you know, really instills in our family is like that man is a gentle kind creature to every fucking person.

[00:41:44] He meets everyone. He looks people right in the eyes. He's not scared. He doesn't judge. And I'm like, damn. Yeah, I've gotten so far away from that. Like how do I. Get back, you know, like I'm scared if a guy drives down our driveway to help us with something, frankly, if he's in pickup truck, I'm like he has gone.

[00:42:07] I'm scared he has a gun. We will go out there and talk to them. And, you know, part of that I think is being a woman and just being concerned about being, I don't like to be around men that I don't know. I don't like to be around men that I do know. And, but it's all of these things have just been swirling around about avoidance, you know, and how that really then separates me though, from getting to know maybe someone or something or having my idea.

[00:42:31] Challenged. And we need that for growth.

[00:42:42] Anna Toonk: I think something like, I hadn't, it's weird because I've talked about it in therapy and like stuff is like often if I'm afraid of something, I run right to it. I do, because I don't, I don't like things to have power over. You know, like you're really good at that. It will. It's just like, I was like laughing with a friend yesterday.

[00:43:02] I was like, my natural fucking arrogance. Thankfully protects me in that sense of I'm like all, like, you're not good at like, and I'm really grateful for it. It's a part of myself I've never really understood and been like, God, this again. And I'm like, my God, we're scaring up then. Like, where are we going to in it?

[00:43:21] You know? But I was like, but then it's over then I'm not scared of it anymore. Then I've taken its power away. And when I was reading about the stuff about avoidance and talking about like a little bit of that tricky relationship, it has the things, it, it made so much sense to me because it's like, it makes sense to me, you've said to yourself as a shortcut and a way to like, You know, protect yourself and protect yourself.

[00:43:46] Like people in, in trucks are bad, you know, like, that's that shortcut, but it's like, yes. Yeah. But you know, but then it's like it then, but then it creates this whole problem where you're like, well, I know that's not really true, but now I've like planted this thing where now I'm afraid, you know, like it almost becomes like Pavlovian about whatever you are trying to avoid.

[00:44:09] And I was like, wow, this is. Interesting reading this stuff, Lank, something that's like about doing intuitive work, being in terrible. Like all of that is the constant reminder of length. You lose sight. I think of what's right or wrong and you become much more invested in what's right or wrong for you.

[00:44:27] You know of like, you know, you start like sort of letting go of these, like some of the labels and, and cliches, and you start kind of going, I don't know about, I'm unclear about what's universal, what's personal, you know, and you start kind of going, if I'm going to listen to my intuition, that has to be like, kind of my internal source, you know?

[00:44:49] So it was interesting. This thing that I've, I've always been that way, like, oh, I'm afraid of it. Let me do it. Let me find out about it. Let me research it. Let me talk to someone who's an expert in it. You know, like let me confront it. I was like, that's a cool thing. As someone who does grapple with anxiety, I'm like, that's a nice thing that I I'm glad I intuitively did that.

[00:45:07] And. Honored it in myself, you know, like, cause I do think that it's helped me, but I do also see how it's a choice and that's not the say when something is obviously touching something more emotional for me or probably trauma related. I can't wait to discuss this episode with my therapist this week.

[00:45:26] She's going to be pumped. You know, like as someone who just got a check for me and I owed her a lot of money, she's going to be like, yes, I would love to discuss your avoided. 'cause I think for me avoidance too, in, I know we want to start wrapping up, but like self-care and like, that's what I think is so interesting.

[00:45:45] Like I think some of your avoidance, like can be more maybe like trusting your, like your own intellect or whatever. And my avoidance is often like self-care, which I think you're so masterful at. And like, it's so funny how these things. Because I don't think you were an I are that dissimilar or our values or how we sort of go through things now, even our histories, we even have, I mean, like we don't want to brag, but we also have like share trauma.

[00:46:11] But, um, so I think

[00:46:13] Nina Endrst: it's like,

[00:46:17] Anna Toonk: we need to make best friend necklaces that are hearts that say shared trauma,

[00:46:21] Nina Endrst: just trauma, but you get the.

[00:46:28] Anna Toonk: Drama bond. It's like fascinating to me, all these different ways that like, you know, as an outsider, like you might think like, oh, I think Nina is doing this. Or you think, oh, I think Anna is doing this, but it's like, it's avoidance. It's just showing up in this different way. As it relates to us personally, you know, like, It's so fascinating and it

[00:46:50] Nina Endrst: changes like I used to be avoidant of self care and I used to run toward things that scared me.

[00:46:55] And then I flip-flopped. Yeah. Honestly, when I had a kid was when I started becoming very fearful of things, it was, it was the intersection of Trump and having a kid during that time, that, and moving from Mexico to the United States, back to the United States that I was like, boom. In this cocoon of like, this is where it's safe.

[00:47:18] It's not safe out there. And that I'm really trying to move away from because I used to do whatever I wanted and I had no fear, you know, I had anxiety, a lot of it. Yeah. But I'm Watson lock back again. I'm sorry to brag. I keep doing this panic attacks up the ass, but. I have this like evolved in, in so many ways.

[00:47:42] And then I feel like I've regressed in, like I said to weigh the other day, I'm like, I jumped out of a plane. Like what the fuck was stoned? Like I w what was I thinking? I'm still glad I did that. I'm so glad I, you know, decided to go skydiving, like an asshole, but I also. I would never do that at this point in my life.

[00:48:05] Like never.

[00:48:06] Anna Toonk: I mean, I think kids, I mean, I don't know if y'all have heard the kids change a lot. I mean, I think kids absolutely change that, you know, you're like, I'm not just making these decisions for me. I mean, there's someone else involved. I'm curious though. And not to go back to what you were, you know, I'm curious because I think you.

[00:48:25] I've seen you in way interact. And I feel like you do ask him for help, but it's obviously it's more related to like household childcare, you know, you're like, can you do this or I'm going to do this. What do you think you struggle to ask for help?

[00:48:38] Nina Endrst: When I feel emotionally like, okay, this is very vulnerable, so I'm just going to put it out there.

[00:48:46] But the other day I was like, I've, I've struggled with depression, my entire life. And I'm somebody that rides those waves and knows how to do that. Uh, you know, have learned like what works for me and what doesn't and no one, I need to reach out for support, like for professional, blah, blah. But it's very hard for me to ask for

[00:49:06] Anna Toonk: emotional support from

[00:49:09] Nina Endrst: anyone that's not like that I'm not paying.

[00:49:12] And he's like, he knows everything about me. Right. But he also,

[00:49:18] Anna Toonk: I also.

[00:49:19] Nina Endrst: I feel like sometimes I it's really hard for me to be like, I'm at, I'm not doing well. Like I was really overwhelmed last week. I felt just mentally so exhausted. And the world was just kind of getting me down and I was feeling like hopeless about the state of things and I just felt pretty depressed.

[00:49:40] But I don't really, I always want to be aware, right. Because I'm someone where growing up, my dad was, would be like crying in the other room when my parents were getting divorced and it made a real like mark on me. And I don't think it was parts of it were positive because I got to see like a male figure who wasn't just.

[00:50:02] You know, like sack of weights, just like, Hey, good to me too. Like he was, but

[00:50:11] Anna Toonk: he was selling me, like at least he was acknowledging emotions, but had, imagine as a child that you weren't like. Oh, like you must send us out. Like you had that support. Yeah, I know.

[00:50:26] Nina Endrst: So my mom would get angry and like, I didn't feel like I could ask her for help necessarily, because I didn't know.

[00:50:34] Like her to be even more overwhelmed. And my dad didn't seem to be doing so hot. So I, sorry, dad. So I did it all myself and I, yes, I'm very

[00:50:47] Anna Toonk: familiar with this. That's what I learned.

[00:50:49] Nina Endrst: And that's what I've been desperately trying to unravel. And so I stopped myself in those moments and I tell him like, it's hard for me to ask you for help, but like, I'm not doing well.

[00:51:01] And just saying that like, You know, he knows me and he knows what helps me. And when I get quiet, that's my thing. Like I just, and, and I, we talked to about this, which I think is important to know here. I said for a lot of people throughout my entire life, if you ask like a thousand people that I've known, if they think I struggled from depression, I would say that 80% of them would say, Yeah, and that is the way that, you know, we can look a certain way or present a certain way, and that's not necessarily how we're feeling and I've become really good at that for whether that's healthy or not at regulating myself.

[00:51:46] But. Emoting that way. So, um, that's something I'm really trying not to avoid is saying, hi, I'm having a really bad day or I'm struggling or I'm scared. That's something I keep inside a lot. I'm scared. I am scared you guys it's fucking scary out there. That's why I'm so good at self care, because I'm terrified if I don't take care of myself, I will not be the person I want to be.

[00:52:10] And I want to show up for my kid and my friends and my work. And so that's what I have to do to be. That way.

[00:52:19] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And I also think even if doing all those things, even like you can't self care your way out of clinical depression, if there's people out there like, no, no, I was not suggesting that. No, no, I'm not saying you are, but I just, I know you agree with me, so it's why people, yeah.

[00:52:40] That I just face mask. Yeah, just see it starts to go away. But I think also like the, especially as it relates to avoidance, like I think it's something that it's worth paying attention to, to know your own signs. And that I know for me, if I start being very avoidant and then I, if I start to get a little apathetic, I'm depressed, I've entered that's when I go, oh, things are not well.

[00:53:10] That's okay. Like I know it doesn't feel good. I know none of us are like, oh, I love it when I'm depressed, you know, or whatever. Or even if you're just a little down or you're just a little. I think all of us, it's natural. I think it's okay to want to power down. Sometimes I think it's okay to want to avoid things sometimes.

[00:53:31] You know, I think it's knowing for yourself, when is it like you're giving yourself some space or time or stillness, you know, that you're just taking a step back. Like I'm not answering, I'm avoiding that email because I want to get clear about what I want to say or. You know, versus when is it you're doing it because you don't feel equipped to deal with it or the emotions it brings up are overwhelming.

[00:53:55] And I would always advocate when you feel that way, speak to the person that feels safest to you to just be like, like you said, like I'm not doing good. You know, like you don't, it doesn't need to be that dressed up. It doesn't need to be that fancy for me, it was reaching out to my friend and being like, you seem to know how to be in a.

[00:54:16] As it relates to homes, can you help me? You know, and she was like, of course, let's hop on the phone, you know, like speak to someone who feels safe to you to be like, I'm avoiding doing this. Like. What do you think I should do? Or, or help or whatever you might be surprised? I think most of us, like, it was interesting for me to read how much avoidance is about not wanting to feel certain things with Doug that's everything, but it really reinforced to me how much, if you are feeling really plagued by avoidance or like it's really hampering your life, look for the support, you know, that may be.

[00:54:52] Asking yourself, why am I avoiding this? You know, like start going down that list of questioning and without judgment or shame, there's a reason you're avoiding it. So like, let's try to crack that and then figure out who would be the proper support for the discomfort you feel around what you're avoiding.

[00:55:07] Nina Endrst: Amen. I think that's a great place to bid you farewell. Good friends. Thank you for coming on this elementary school journey, I will not be available for around the world ever.

[00:55:23] Anna Toonk: We will never make you play around the world. I will not be available around the world.

[00:55:36] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's episode.

[00:55:38] Anna Toonk: If there's a topic you want us to discuss, please submit it on our website at thesoulunity.com/how-to-be-human

[00:55:45] Nina Endrst: If you want to connect with other thoughtful humans, please join us at The Soul Unity. Listeners get two weeks free by going to our website and visiting our podcast page.

[00:55:53] Anna Toonk: Thanks for listening. And remember, we're guides, not gurus.