So I got halfway through reading Frances's comment and realized I wasn't listening

to anything that you were saying.

So then stopped reading Frances's comment and started listening to what you were

saying halfway through you saying it.

So as a consequence, I've done neither of those things.

I dunno what Frances written and I didn't really listen to what you said.

which is, which is brilliant from a podcast point of view.

Well, from a, from a quantum perspective, I think you, they, they call those two

entangled states and you're not sure which state you're in until you interrogate

and measure the quantum system.

Following on from last week when we were talking about.

Putting prices on our website.

And of course Frances joined us to share her thoughts and opinions

about that we thought we would follow on with this idea, right.

what does that number do to people when they see it, when

they see it on their website?

And how do we think about using that number to influence people's decisions?

It sounds a bit Machiavellian and, and, sort of like calculating, but it happens.

You know, we are guided by signals as like you said, Ben, pricing is a signal.

So we wanna talk about that idea of why that's the case and what it does, I think,

and then also what that means within the wider context of our businesses and our

work and the, the way we talk about what we do and, and also how we do stuff.

So, um, I think we wanna bring together this idea there's pricing and this is

what yourself, uh, and myself, we, we kind of like, try and focus on, on the

course, uh, and it's kind of the, the root of everything that we're talking

about here, but within the context of this other thing called positioning, uh,

and how that, how they play with each other, how they interplay with each other.

I would say, um, cause I was gonna say positioning in is pricing, but I

don't think there's always that linear.

Uh, and I guess the sort of general point, there's almost kind of nothing in.

Really kind of running our business, which is kind of absolutely linear.

It's kind of everything is full of surprising connections, unintended

consequences, you know, et cetera, all of those sorts of things.

Now, for sure, there's a relationship between all of this, which I would

no doubt you, the, the physicist you could explain to us on a quantum level.

Maybe we won't get into that just at the moment.

Uh, but you know, for sure there is a relationship between, uh, between

positioning and price because as you know, we talk about a lot and is kind

of true and everything in many ways actually kind of price is a function

of what we're selling to who and how.

Uh, and, um, you know, positioning is a part of that.

And whenever somebody is, you know, buying anything, That it is, buying things is

kind of fraught with risk, essentially.

You know, is it going to do the thing that I want it to do?

Am I, you know, is it safe?

Am I gonna look okay?

Am I gonna look bad?

All of these sort of doubts happening in some form.

You know, more or less loud, uh, in the kind of heart and mind of the

person who's buying your things.

And those people are always looking for cues.

And they're looking for clues.

That's the thing that you are going to do.

You know, the, the thing that you provide or the thing that you offer,

whatever it may be, whether it's product or service, is safe, is okay.

And, you know, price is one of the things which kind of people look to.

It is one of the.

Whether, you know, whether we kind of like it or not, really.

It is, you know, it, it does say a lot of people infer things from it.

Uh, and they infer things.

And this is not just about saying that actually more expensive things are better.

Uh, I'm not saying that.

But there is then a comparative thing because people will have a rough idea

in their mind about maybe the, you know, what the type of thing that

you provide, what it might cost.

And so they are making judgements, they are making associations.

Uh, so in, so in that sense, The prices is always kind of, you know, whether

intended or not sending out signals.

It is always supporting or reinforcing a story that somebody has about what you do.

So in that context, it is talking about positioning.

Uh, and I guess in, you know, quite a sort of direct way, which maybe follows

on from what we were talking about last week, where the kind of pros and

cons of putting prices on the website and then how it links to positioning.

You know, for sure, different customers, different people will

have different expectations, will have different uh, price sensitivity

will have different ability and means to pay different amounts.

And I think being clear around who it is that you are wanting to serve is important

because then the price that we are putting out there, whether that's on a website,

whether that's in dialogue, whatever it may be, is part of the sort of repertoire

of things which kind of reinforces the message you are wanting to send to them.

When you were talking about this whole idea of how people respond to

a price, you know, you said like, just because, the simpler tactic of

just putting a price up doesn't make it feel more valuable necessarily.

Um, and I think of like Stella Artois, things, you know, being reassuringly

expensive and Waitrose, you have this perception it's gonna be more

expensive, you know, bag of tomatoes in Waitrose is gonna be more expensive

than the bag of tomatoes and Tesco's.

The, there's, there's already an expectation there.

But there's a simplistic level, like yeah.

You know, increase your prices and you'll be perceived more as, more

valuable, and some people will react really negatively to that.

Mm-hmm.

So I think what I was trying to get at there, there's this thing about

getting out of your own head and your own perceptions around money

to realize that lots of people have different perceptions around money.

And part of this positioning piece is aligning the way you present

yourself with the perceptions of the people you wanna serve.

So if there are people out there, again, this is, and this is where

it all gets a bit more like art more than science is, my understanding is,

there are people out there, you know, except there are people out there who

think paying more means more value.

And so to, if you personally think, oh, I can't charge more because,

you know, the costs or the profit margin I'm taking is just unethical

in your head, but there's someone out there that says, oh, no, I wouldn't.

If if you charge only 200 pounds, I wouldn't buy you because I wanna be

spending 500 pounds, there's potentially a, you're leaving money on the table,

as you like to say, Ben, on the course, but B, it's like there's that whole, I

think, this whole idea of this perception of a choice being fraught with risk.

If that makes someone feel more comfortable and you are comfortable in

yourself in terms of what you deliver, you know, whoever it is, how many much you

pay, you know, you'll create an outcome, the outcome you, you, uh, they want.

How much they pay is also a fact, uh, as relevant to them as it is to you.

That's what I'm trying to say.

It's like not to get into this whole, oh, you know, there's, there's,

there's an objective price or I thi I feel it's too expensive, so no

one else will pay that much money.

Mm-hmm.

And so this exercise in positioning is essentially getting out of our own heads,

I think go working from the outside in.

And you talk a lot about this other course, Ben, about having conversations,

really understanding your customers.

But then I think the challenge that I feel some people have is

like understanding their customers, they try and talk to everyone.

Mm.

They haven't started to even try and narrow down in some

way who they want to talk to.

And so they get this scatter gun approach and lots of different

thoughts and views around money.

Not only, and so the scatter gun approach, not only in terms of different

industries or backgrounds or professions, I should say, but even just different,

there's different perceptions of money.

Mm-hmm.

Because in a certain way, if you wanna be able to charge a lot of

money, you need to find people who are happy to spend a lot of money

Mm-hmm.

And I think it's not just about whether that some people want to spend more

money, uh, you know, for sure that is part of some people's identity, that

they have an ability to spend more money, and it's important that some,

they're sending signals to people in their, you know, there's a status thing.

There's signals that they're sending to friends, to family that they, that they

buy things you know, of a certain amount.

So for sure there are some of those, some of those drivers.

But equally there's also a thing like I can, you know, in a way, can

most usefully answer this from my own sort of personal experience.

And so like when I was running Free State, one of the things that happened sort of

accidentally around that in putting up our prices, actually we did become easier

to buy because there was a perception that somehow the purchase was safer.

Uh, and, uh, you know, and so that is something which kind of happens

in the heart mind of that, you know, that those particular types of client.

They're people in an organization, they are, you know, the people in big

organizations actually, they, they were.

So the, whilst the amounts are not really kind of relevant, they're people in

big organizations, so they're worried about what their Pearse might think.

They're worried about what their bosses might think.

So they're looking for signals of reassurance.

They're looking for signals that buying you is safe.

And the price that we charge then is important in that, in that instance.

So it's not just about somebody's, um, some, you know, somebody who

identifies with buying things, which are expensive, but for sure there are

those people out there and, you know, they shouldn't be discounted either.

Again, it comes with the, you know, the other, the other scenario where,

Kind of more does help really.

We felt that very, very tangibly in running Free State that actually

by the, the price did send a signal of reassurance, which is a little

bit of that, um, the reassuringly expensive point I guess sort of

manifest in a different space.

I think there's a, a certain level, well, what's coming up for me is

there's a refinement in terms of more clarity about what I want.

You know, for people who are not sure, and I'm Let, and Frances added the question

here about coaches, and I'm gonna use coaches as, as an example of that, for

people who are not sure about coaching, whether that'll create the right value for

them, whether that's something that that's gonna, you know, is it gonna be useful.

They're, they might be looking for someone who will charge 50

pounds an hour, 75 pounds an hour, something like that, maybe even less.

Well, that's because, you know, again, this is my framing anyway,

cuz that's where I started.

And then you get to a stage where actually, you know, I, I

want more from this and I've got this story of what more means.

And then I think then that shifts how much you are willing to pay for that

interaction, for that engagement.

And you start seeing different types.

And I think part of this is also.

What you talk about in the course is the, the anchoring, the different,

you know, what are you comparing to?

You know, I'm thinking like, I want help from someone like Tony Robbins, but I

can't afford 10 grand, 500 quid is cheap.

It's like, yeah, I'm gonna go for that.

Not a problem.

And so with that positioning piece and the perception of what valuable and safe

is, Um, if I'm, I'm kind of, you know, I think I'm trying to, as much for myself

and maybe for anyone listening, it's like actually by getting that clarity

about how these people see themselves, how, where they are on this journey of

understanding of the problem in a sense.

Mm-hmm.

It's like understanding of value, which is again, what.

We can talk about on the courses, like how do you get them to understand

what, what is of value to them?

I think there's something there around positioning.

It's like by people who, who have a certain understanding of value

or clarity for themselves, will pay a certain amount of money.

Mm-hmm.

And so you, you kind of a pin your prices on that number.

You use that as a guide.

And also the way you talk about your work and the way you present yourself

is, is as much for someone with a more mature understanding of the work

you do as opposed to someone who's just come across this whole idea.

And Frances will probably pipe in about levels of consciousness in marketing.

So you were talking earlier on, I think about, um, if somebody was unsure about

coaching, taking the coaching example, if somebody is unsure about coaching, there's

a couple of responses there, aren't there?

So the, the coach could basically feel like, oh, I need to make this as cheap

as possible to invite the person in.

But actually the question then is, if I am reducing the price in that situation, am

I actually sending signals of reassurance.

Am I actually sending signals of kind of confidence?

Am I actually sending a signal that I, I, you know, I value myself and I value, you

know, I can be the guide that you need?

Now, for sure, there are sort of extra things that need to happen,

but I think we can sort of fall into a, fall into a trap of thinking

if somebody's unsure, things like reducing price, help somebody step in.

But I, I guess the, the question that I would sort of ask is, you know, do

we really think that that is true?

Which, you know, may sound like a silly question, but actually it's

surprising how often people do do that.

For me, the thing is, there's this idea about when we say sending this signal

out to people about whether you are a safe person to buy, reducing the cost

is, I think being conscious of are you reducing it because you are not confident?

And it's that signal that you sent to yourself.

When you put a price on, so there's like, there's two impacts here.

There's how confident the, the customer is that you're going to provide what they

need, but also how confident you feel.

And I think when you attach your confidence and value to that number

too tightly, then that can be a risk.

Particularly if you haven't done a lot of self-work, if you haven't

really sort of sunk into action, you are valuable no matter what.

Mm-hmm.

And this is the interesting bit for me around all of this, is that how it affects

how our lived experience, and we talk a little bit about this, how our stories

around money and our relationship to money affects how we interact with other

people when we sell and when we price.

And so that's the thing that stood out for me is like that

immediate jump to discounting.

Is that, where is that really coming from?

Mm-hmm.

Is that really coming from a place of, yeah, I know this person can't afford

that much and so I'm just gonna give them a opportunity to buy a little

less, cuz then at least they'll buy.

Or is it like, I'm scared they don't like me.

Maybe if I reduce the price, they'll like me.

Uh, yeah.

No, I think, I think that, that, that is it.

Because I think many people would probably say, uh, if you asked them,

yeah, no, no, that will, you know, the thought process they went through was

no, they can't really afford it, so I've offered them something that they can't

afford, but then, you know, really had.

Have they actually spoken to the client about that?

Have they done the things like having the conversations around money, talking about

it, and all of that sort of emotionally fraught stuff that you need to do, but

you know, that is necessary to be able to know what somebody else can afford,

to be able to know what something is worth, uh, to them, uh, you have to kind

of have those kind of conversations.

Because Yeah, I think, I think the thing that happens most of the time

is, you know, one of the things we joke about on the course joke in a very

funny kind of way, um, you know, that thing that people do, which is they're

writing a proposal and just before they send the proposal, they quickly

go in and they reduce the amount.

You know, they, they take a zero off or whatever, whatever the thing is.

That happens all the time.

But of course all that's happened in that situation is you are sort of negotiating

with like, you know, with yourself essentially, and you are negotiating

yourself down because you are doubting you are, you are doubting yourself

essentially, and you are kind of you.

You are offering that doubt all the way back to your prospective client and

customer without ever really talking to them, because it is just about coming back

to yourself, oh, they're not gonna do it.

It's too much.

I shouldn't charge this much.

I'm not allowed to charge as much.

People do whatever that amount is, that's just a dialogue

which is going on in your head.

And that's where I really valued kind of everything you say about having more

conversations, really exploring, before you even write a proposal, spending as

much time exploring the ideas and the, the outcomes and the context of the people

that you're sending that proposal to.

Uh, and that, again, trying to get out of your own way about what does it mean

to, you know, what this number means.

Mm-hmm.

And, and also that number for me in a sense is like, Being able to stand behind

it because it's, in a sense, it's creating a boundary around you in terms of, why

should you work for that person if they don't wanna pay the money that you need

to create the business and life you want?

You know?

It, it should be also a case of you being able to have choice.

I say, you know, you're not the customer for me.

Huh?

I need to work with people who can pay this much money cuz I

believe that this is valuable.

Or from the conversations we've had, this is what it's worth.

Mm-hmm.

So it's less about, oh, I'm gonna immediately discount unless you

want to, and that's another thing.

But to just discount because you're scared that you won't get another

client, then I think it speaks to, again, what we're, the other part of

this is the positioning, the marketing.

Who are you reaching out to?

How are people finding you?

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, I think what, well, one of the things that I, we wanted to communicate

with this is, pricing itself, there's a lot of meat meaty goodness there.

There's a lot of stuff that you can really dive into.

But to do this in isolation of all the other stuff that you're

doing in your business, don't expect it to be a silver bullet.

Okay.

It'll probably open up, and we found this on the course, it'll probably open

up more questions about other aspects of your business than necessarily

just solve stuff around pricing.

And we're conscious about that.

And so that's sort of thing that I think I'm getting more and more

clear about is like, we will help you with your pricing, but we'll also

help you understand what you need to do in the rest of your business.

Mm-hmm.

And that going into something like this with your eyes wide open and not

feel like, oh, solved, tick, done.

Gonna earn lots of money, it's, I think it's a broader value than just knowing how

to provide options or have conversations.

Mm-hmm.

Before we jump off, uh, let's see if we can address a couple of the

questions that distracted you, Ben.

So Frances and Serena were involved in an interesting conversation in

something called the Better Bolder Braver community, which is a community

to help coaches market the better, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Check them out, Better Bolder Braver online, the lovely sister community.

Sorry, so, uh, I didn't wanna be, um, dismissive about that.

but anyway, to the question.

They were talking about how tricky marketing and prices pricing is when

you don't want to articulate an outcome.

So it sounds like it's a very emergent process.

Uh, I know there is at least one person here who is playing with

pricing and trying to get coaching clients as part of their training.

They need to coach a certain amount of people to qualify.

So there's something around, but I need to be able to get these coaches

on, but I'm not a hundred percent sure how to articulate the outcome.

Well, I mean that this is, it's a, this is a selling problem, isn't it?

Which is right, the kind of pricing, selling, marketing, you can't really

sort of unpick all of these things.

They're all, they're all sort of cuddled up in bed together.

Uh, and, and I guess the, the point around if you're not clear on

outcome, you do, and I know you guys at the in the community do, do talk

about this, you do Sure, for sure.

Need to be clear on the problem, uh, that they want to solve.

Now, the outcome may be unknown, the kind of the, the range of solutions

that you kind of get to or what actually changes for them, uh, what the, what

the, what the change looks like.

May be unknown, but I guess someone is only going to engage

in a process with a coach because they want to change something.

Uh, and so there has to be, I would guess, sort of some clarity over

the thing that they want to change for you to be in a position, uh, or

for them to be in a position, uh, to have the desire, to have the intent,

to have the wish to work with you.

So whilst outcome may not be known, I would've thought solving a problem,

making, changing something does need to be known for somebody to step

into a, into a coaching relationship.

Yeah.

I'm curious about how we're talking about the word outcome.

Because I think if I go onto a course to learn Python, the

outcome is I learn Python.

If I go to an accountant to get my tax return done, the outcome

is I get my tax return done.

If I go to a coach.

while the outcome might not be as tangible, I think there are ways to

describe that outcome, more clarity, a space to explore, feeling of safety,

better ability to make sense of things.

You know, there's, there's, I assume there's, there's ways to articulate

that outcome that isn't just fixed on a final destination as such.

Um, and even just like the ability to have emergent conversations.

You know, that's, maybe that's a feature, but the outcome is like, I, I'm able

to then ex, you know, express myself or just process something, I dunno.

I, I, I'm, yeah.

I'm just curious about this whole idea of like, not being

able to articulate an outcome.

Maybe there is an outcome, but it's just, it's not so singular or fixed.

There is a way to describe the outcome.

When you talk about good feelings and solutions, maybe

the outcome is just to feeling.

Yeah.

As opposed to the thing, maybe the outcome is just working for six hours

with this particular person cuz you've always wanted to have conversations

with 'em cuz you knew it would be a benefit somehow or the other.

I dunno.

Yeah, I mean, just, just on that cuz I, I think, you know, you say just a, the

outcome is just a feeling, you know, actually that is a hugely important thing.

And I think, you know, this all comes back to people.

We generally buy things because we want to change something.

We feel like this and we want to feel like that.

We're doing this and we want that to happen.

That change is the thing that people are buying.

And so, you know, to your point there, it might be that it's just this kind of

use of the word outcome is, is sort of misleading, I think it's understanding

that people want to change something.

And that you, with your skills and expertise and sort of goodwill

and kindness and knowledge and insight, are able to help

facilitate that change for someone.

That's the thing that they're buying, but that's also the thing that you need to

connect to, to help somebody step into a process of coaching or to step into

any kind of engagement, relationship.

Again, it relates for me, I'm gonna connect it back to positioning.

It's like, how do you want people to perceive you?

As someone who is very much around relationships and connection

and emergence, or someone who's like, bam, bam, bam, we're gonna

do this, this, this, and this.

Or, I have a process, follow my process.

You're selling a process or you're selling an experience.

And again, that I think, starts to connect.

When you know who those people are, you then know what they're

comparing you two and then you get, potentially you can start honing in

on the kinds of money, the kind type of money they're willing to spend.

Again, if you want to show prices on your website, if you wanna show prices upfront.

Because the other opportunity here is like actually you have conversations with

these people and you get to the price that is even more meaningful because you

really got to the heart of the matter.

Um, I was just gonna connect, the final question from Frances here is

Do us folks like the idea of gamifying pricing conversations as a way of

playing with pricing such as one in every 10 discovery calls, I'll double

my rate and see what reaction you get.

I think like with all of these things, with everything, whether it's pricing,

whether it's selling, whether it's kind of marketing, whether it's coaching, whether

it's doing podcasts, there should be some sort of, some sort of lightness to it.

There should be some humor.

There should be joy in it.

Uh, and so whatever gamifying looks for you, I think, you know, playing,

doing some things which take you a little bit out of your comfort zone.

Doing some things which surprise yourself, are good in all, in

all instances, aren't they?

And I think the same is true for, for pricing.

So I would say, I would say always experiment, always, always play around.

Definitely.

I agree.

the other aspect is, there's moving outta your comfort zone in terms of

that very, uh, safe, predictable, this is the price, just take it or leave it.

But then also I would encourage you or just be aware of the discomfort that you

might put other people in, and being able to sit with that discomfort and maybe

start having, if you are prepared to have triggering challenging conversations,

because someone says, well, what, what?

Why are you putting that up?

What, why, how does that work?

It's like, if you are able to have, you know, the way I say, if you're able to

have those conversations without your e you know, your sort of energy going up or

your, you are reacting in a way that, um, isn't necessarily helpful then go for it.

But I would be very conscious of your own relationship to money

if you're gonna do this as well.

Or just be aware that it might feel really uncomfortable.

Because I've, I've seen that, I've had that experience where someone

was playing with money with me and say, you know, pay what you want.

That's like, oh, for fuck's sake.

Oh, but that's different.

That's very different to

Yeah

like the, the game thing that, uh, Fran, so that, that is, that is very difficult

for people because they don't know.

Yeah,

I think so what the thing that Frances is suggesting is given you are having

conversations and in those conversations somebody is asking you what you charge

if I understand this correctly, Frances is saying one in 10 of those, or a

number of those, rather than saying it costs 10, say it cost a hundred.

Or rather than saying it costs a hundred, say it cost a thousand just

to experiment with doing things.

A lot of the things you sort of spoke about are true.

It may be uncomfortable for you and it may be difficult,

but play with it just to see.

Even if it's just one in 10 times you have that conversation, try saying a

different number to see what happens.

Uh, and you know, yes, you will kind of, you will see how you react, but

also you will kind of see that actually client, prospective clients all

react in very, very different ways.

Sure, some people might go, Oh, that's too much, but others may go, Okay,

great, let's, let's kind of do it.

I think that's, that's quite a different thing to the pay what you want, which

is a very, very difficult thing.

And so I know that from.

My own, my own business, the meditation platform.

We've tried all of these different things and actually when we did just at

a very straight, you did a completely pay what you want versus, uh, like in

a sense kind of some split testing, really, you can pay what you want,

which it could include nothing, right?

Or you could pay, and here's just three amounts that you could pay.

The number of people who bought on when you give them just a specific

choice to respond to is way, way, way more than the people who bought.

When you say you can do what you want.

Because it, when you say pay what you want, it's you are just, you are loading

all of the pressure onto the person who's buying and they will almost all

the time just go, fuck it, it's too much.

It's too complicated.

I don't know.

I'll go somewhere else.

People do want help and just foisting something onto them whilst it may

feel generous is not helping them.

I think we should maybe talk about playing with pricing next time just to

dive into this idea, cuz I, I definitely got the wrong and the stick around this

and we didn't quite understand this approach or just changing prices randomly.

Or maybe it's something to, need to do some research.

Maybe we're gonna get some, some people on who's done this

and played around with this.

And it sounds like you've done it with the, the, the app.

So.

I, I feel the need to dive in deeper.

Okay.

See where?

See where that takes us.

It's lucky because we've got a money pricing podcast and we could just do that.

It's like serendipity.

Wow.

The universe is conspiring.

It's incredible.

Quantum, quantum pricing.

Yeah, it's all quantum pricing.

Okay, awesome.

Thank you very much, Ben.

Another one in the can.

Thank you everyone else for, for, yeah, tolerating us, but

hopefully getting something useful.

Alright, you take care.

Thank you.

Have a great rest of the Wednesday.

Bye-bye.