0:00:05.3 Vickie Brett: Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I'm Vicki Brett.

0:00:09.0 Amanda Selogie: I'm Amanda Selogie.

0:00:10.7 VB: We're two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism. Each week, we're going to explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

0:00:25.5 AS: And give them a platform.

0:00:26.6 VB: To enact change in education.

0:00:28.9 AS: And level the playing field.

0:00:32.9 VB: Welcome back, listeners.

0:00:34.9 AS: Hi, everyone.

0:00:36.5 VB: You have noticed since pretty much, I think, November, that we dropped down our podcast recordings to every other week. Given the state of affairs, Amanda and I had to take a step back and essentially just start to prepare seriously for pivot. So you've heard some pre-recorded interviews that we had had with people that we knew would be really useful for getting back into the second semester, the spring semester. But now you'll kind of see a bit of a pivot taking us a minute to gather our thoughts and really be able to have the energy to talk to you guys.

0:01:19.6 AS: Well, we're recording this on January 31st so we have kind of taken the month of January trying to figure out what is going on obviously state of affairs. There's a lot going on but what we're really trying to make sure is that we bring to you, our listeners, the most up-to-date and accurate information. And there's so much information out there, one from executive orders, but I mean, we're even seeing like policy statements being made via tweet. And so... And I just listened this morning about, you know, the legality of courts, basically, kind of talking about how clarifications are being made by tweets and how legitimate that is and how... There's just so much to say. And also, you know, we talk about the legality of executive orders and what can and cannot happen, what needs to go through the court. So there's so much unknown right now. There's been a lot that's happened since inauguration day and in the month of January. So we're going to be really trying to work to get you the correct information and not just jump the gun. We want to talk about these issues, but we want to make sure that we're not part of the noise of the freak outs, right? Obviously, there's a lot to be concerned about, worried about. There's some really important topics that we're going to be talking about, including today. But we want to make sure that we are really educating you guys on not just what's happening, but the law and the implications.

0:02:44.8 VB: Yeah, so today's episode is going to focus on ICE, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, particularly in schools and beyond. And we have a very special guest that's actually returning in this official capacity, Victoria Lucero. Thank you so much for coming back onto our podcast. You came on many, many moons ago when you were a baby intern, and now you're all grown up.

0:03:11.3 Victoria Lucero: I know, I think it's been like five or six years. Thank you guys for having me back.

0:03:16.0 VB: Yeah, we are really excited to kind of get into what's been going on. So as Amanda said, you know, it's the 31st and you guys will be hearing this next week, next Tuesday. And on January 21st, 2025, is when we got news that the Department of Homeland Security had announced a new policy where they were essentially allowing the immigration officers and agents to carry out enforcement actions. So that includes arrests, searches of "undocumented immigrants" in sensitive locations. Now to give even more background, previously in 2011, when ICE was established, the policy had indicated that these types of enforcement action at sensitive locations, which included places like Social Security establishments, places where children gather, so obviously schools, school bus stops, playgrounds, childcare centers, we're not going to go there, essentially. And sorry, that policy was like expanded to include those areas in 2021. And so then we get to January 2025. And those protections essentially are no longer in place. Victoria, before we kind of get into the meat and potatoes of the conversation, can you let our listeners know what you have been up to since the last time that we spoke to you on the pod? [chuckle]

0:04:44.0 VL: Oh, my. What has happened in the past five, six years? So the last time I was on the pod, I think that we were finishing up Trump 1.0. The world fell apart. We had the pandemic. We had the Biden administration into office. In the meantime, I established a solo practice where I practice primarily immigration law, primarily removal defense. And then I also have kept up the great work of doing special education in New Mexico. I'm actually the only Spanish-speaking special education attorney in New Mexico. So I'm a little in...

[overlapping conversation]

0:05:23.2 AS: That's a topic for another day.

0:05:25.5 VL: Yeah, for another day [laughter] So yeah, so primarily I practice immigration law and I am most known for removal defense. So helping people to not be deported from the United States.

0:05:37.6 VB: And you had done some of that work actually while you were in law school. So you've actually been doing it for quite some time.

0:05:44.5 VL: Right. Yeah, I've actually been working with refugees in immigration law since 2013. So well before law school. And then when I went to Loyola, I was a part of the immigration clinic there. And then I've just continued since.

0:06:00.2 VB: So you've been through a couple of different administrations. And from what we have discussed, immigration is really akin to, and we've said this about special education as well, is like the Wild West, right? You are essentially at the mercy, you know, whatever new administration and policies and ways that they're going to be using the enforcement of, for instance, ICE officers. What do you think is the most chilling thing, if there's one thing, about this type of enforcement in schools? Does that mean that they're deporting children? What does that mean?

0:06:39.2 VL: Yes. So it's kind of complicated to talk about how DHS has set up this new enforcement memo because I've heard some misinformation that that the executive order in and of itself directs the removal of children. And that's not necessarily true. The executive order, which was titled "Protecting the American People Against Invasion", gives the Department of Homeland Security, DHS, kind of like a wide breadth to just do whatever they want. And they've been encouraged. I mean, we've heard the rhetoric over the past two years, over the campaign time, about Trump wanting to remove as many people as possible. So, from the executive order we get the DHS policy memo so it's levels of... Where you have to scroll through all the levels to figure out what they're doing.

0:07:33.9 VL: DHS issues their memo stating that churches, schools, hospitals, which were previously safe zones, we call them safe zones, they're no longer going to be safe zones.

0:07:44.6 VB: And so that just meant like safe in the sense of like an ICE officer wouldn't show up to those places.

0:07:51.1 VL: Right. Unless there was a super criminal, unless El Chapo undocumented was showing up...

[overlapping conversation]

0:07:58.9 VL: They weren't going to show up to those places. And for the most part, that rule was followed. We haven't really heard of or seen ICE or CBP, which has expanded jurisdiction now, in schools, churches, hospitals, safe zones. But what I will say is with this, to answer your question, Vicky, yes, ICE can come into the school, pick up an undocumented child and remove them.

0:08:27.4 AS: I feel like at the beginning of Trump's term, the first time, we were seeing reports of ICE near schools to pick up parents when they were going to pick up or drop off. And I remember a lot of school districts starting to provide information to families about how like, "We're not going to allow... " you know, if it becomes a threat. Because there was a lot of unknowns back then at the beginning, just like there is a lot of unknowns now. And we're starting to see the trickle of schools now in January 2025 releasing some information about what they will and will not do. But I mean, essentially what they've said, you know, we've seen some school districts here in California have kind of said, like, you know, "We're here to protect the kids, but we have to comply with the law." And so I know that now there's a lot more uncertainty than there was back then, because at least we thought there was some semblance of these safety zones. But even back then there was still a lot of fear, especially from families. We deal with a lot of monolingual Spanish-speaking families here in California. And that information is hard to kind of get out there.

0:09:34.3 VL: Right. It's very hard to get out there. And like I had mentioned, Amanda, because these policies are so multi-layered, it's hard to explain to a teacher or a school administrator, "What do you need to follow? And how do the policy memos, how are they in line with your state law? How are they in line with federal law regulations?" It's very complicated for us immigration attorneys. And I do this every single day. And it's like trying to... It's like reinventing the wheel almost every day. What do we do? So we have to figure out a way to better inform school administrators, school personnel, you know, what their rights are. It's been a very big trend on TikTok lately and social media of teachers just being like, "I'm just not going to do it." And I can't really blame them. It might not be lawful that they're doing that, but we're living in wild times right now.

0:10:30.0 VB: Well, and there's policies...

0:10:32.5 AS: I would say there's kind of two components to, I think, what teachers and administrators are kind of trying to figure out. We've gotten some guidance from California Attorney General as well as our Department of Education, and I know other states are doing it as well, of the component of what are we doing if ICE shows up to a school? Are they collecting parents? Are they collecting students? But then there's also the reporting requirements of what is the information that schools both are allowed to provide to ICE, but also are they required to report if they know they have undocumented children or their parents within? And so we're going to be posting some of the guidance that we've received both from the Department of Education and the Attorney General. But like, can you speak to kind of those two sides of it? Obviously, there's one that's more of a... It's easier to just not report, but if they come to your school, it's a little bit different, right?

0:11:26.9 VL: Right. It's definitely easier to not report. But what do you do when someone's there knocking at your door? What do they even know? The other problem is the laws in California, much like in New Mexico, we have a, for public schools, people don't have to report their immigration status. What it really comes down to though, like those... The laws in California are great. I read the resource from the attorney general's office, but what it comes down to is, are you going to have an individual in a school district that's also going to follow that? I say that because we've had that problem in New Mexico where, yeah, we have all these great state protection laws where we're not gonna be... ICE, and we're not going to tell people or report immigration status. But then you get that one individual who believes that that's wrong and secretly they're feeding the information to ICE. So we had to put so much trust in individuals to do their part and not report students' immigration status or families' immigration status to those federal agencies.

0:12:27.6 VB: Well, and I mean, the individual person, the everyday person, working in a school district has their own policies within the school district to follow, right? Where each student within the school environment, and we often see this in board policies and things like that, and... "They need to be free from bullying, intimidation, and discrimination." When you initially think about that, you think from other students, right? We use that terminology all the time when our clients are faced with bullying, when a teacher or aide or admin is discriminating against our students. And it extends to a situation like this. So, you know, the trend on TikTok, I think, has some validity in the teacher saying like, "Look, this is my job as a teacher, okay?" Like, "All this other stuff is above my pay grade. I don't need to be doing that."

0:13:21.6 VB: And I wanted to really remind the teachers and administrators and parents that listen to this podcast that most school districts have that as just their policy, to focus on safety, respecting each other, and having a positive approach to how to help children with behaviors or really just anyone, I suppose, on campus. And I feel like that's something that many of them can fall back on as well as the state laws. When you are kind of sifting through, because it is federal law, you have clients throughout the United States of America. If someone were to contact you because they have been informed by the school district that ICE has come to their home or even to the school, is that like the right move to make is just to contact an immigration attorney to try to get the most updated information? 'cause it seems like things are constantly changing. I know today's the 31st. This had come out the 21st. So we've kind of lived with it in 10 days. There's federal judges that are getting cases and making decisions. Is that the kind of best approach for somebody that is fearful or needs more information is to contact an immigration attorney? Or is it to just kind of do your own research? 'cause it just seems like there's so much misinformation out there.

0:14:52.3 VL: Yeah, there's tons of misinformation out there. I think there are some really great resources like the ACLU has put out some awesome Know Your Rights resources that are solid. My office, I've been trying to put out information as I know it and help people, like, what they can do. But if they can contact an immigration attorney who specializes in... Not, I mean, I shouldn't say specializes, but an immigration attorney who actually does removal work. Not all immigration attorneys do removal work. That's kind of their best bet to figure out what their liability, I guess, is or what's the likelihood of them getting picked up and taken by ICE? And if that were to happen, what are your defenses to being removed from the country? The other issue that's hard right now is there's another policy memo that expands what we call expedited removals. So basically being deported without any sort of hearing required. That was expanded recently to anybody who's been in the country less than two years.

0:16:04.6 VB: Okay.

0:16:05.5 VL: And then also to, if you're already in removal proceedings, it doesn't apply to you. Sorry, there's like so much information in my head.

0:16:13.3 VB: Yeah, yeah. That's okay.

0:16:14.9 VL: That replies to, and of course, anyone who has even a minor criminal history. We're seeing like traffic arrests.

0:16:21.9 VB: Well, that's right. That was going to be my next question. That, you know, the information out there is that it's supposed to be for these hardened criminals with long history but then obviously...

0:16:32.8 VL: Well, that was the purpose that he claimed.

0:16:37.3 AS: Right. And that's not actually what's happening. I mean, it's pretty much anybody. We've had people who are in what's called deferred action status, which is kind of like you're waiting for your papers to be adjudicated 'cause the wait times are years long. They're picked up and removed. It's hard to tell a family who were to call me like, "What can I do to protect my family?" It's been devastating to have to tell people, you know, "Make a safety plan. Give somebody my number, and remember that person's number so they can call me." 'cause we are just... Anybody seems like a target right now. It is not just people with criminal history. It's anybody.

0:17:17.8 VL: Yeah. And I think it's important for schools not only to understand, like, what are your requirements to disclose information? What are your requirements to allow ICE in? But even secondary to that, we are now dealing with so many families who are having so much fear, so much anxiety, so much even trauma. Let's say a family member does get deported. These kids are going to need our support even more than ever. You know, we talk about mental health on this podcast all the time and how a lot of times students really do need a lot of support. And this is one of those instances where even if an individual child, maybe their immigration status isn't in question, maybe their parents, they have a lot of family members that are, or, I mean, even if their parents do get picked up, there's going to be a need for support to support them on campus, both their mental health and also understanding they might be missing school or they might not be able to do their homework or they might be coming to school without food, without having breakfast. And so I think schools need to be thinking about that too, of like, how is this impacting kids' ability to even access their learning environment and be in school, whether they have a disability or not obviously that adds another layer too.

0:18:33.2 AS: Right. Absolutely. I don't think the Trump administration has made that much thought on any of this. I think their goal has certainly been get people out of the country and they're executing that very well.

0:18:44.3 VB: And I know some of the concerns are even with the SROs, the school resource officers, and it's our understanding that they're generally not required to report undocumented students. There's information. It's all chaos, right? I think that we can all agree that's a fair assessment of all the different types of things that have occurred since January 20th. And Amanda and I will kind of get into the removal of DEI, diversity, equity, inclusion, within the federal level, and then even just with immigration and then the pause on all civil rights cases. But there are still other state and then federal laws that exist that require all children to be given equal access to public education at the elementary school and secondary level. And that's what we also wanted to kind of reiterate, right? It's not just kind of this, like, "Well, he said it and it has to be done. Here we go." Like, obviously, we're seeing certain people carry it out. And I think that that's where we're seeing all the stories of people like you had said, Victoria, who... Traffic violation, right? And are getting picked up. That's not the "priority" but it's certainly being done. And that's... Yeah, yeah.

0:20:11.5 VL: And I think it's important, I think if we're obviously going to share the information that we have, I think we're going to get some information from Victoria on New Mexico, and we have our California resources, we're going to put in our show notes. But you know, we really encourage you if you're not sure, like, if you're an educator or you're an administrator, and you're not sure what your guidance is from your local and state governments, because there might be more, go to your attorney general's office, your department of education, they're going to have resources because, you know, there's going to be a lot of challenges and there's going to be, it's going to be an uphill battle. And obviously we'll continue to update as we get more information and we really see, you know, what happens in the coming months.

0:20:50.4 VB: Absolutely. Victoria, how can people reach out to you if they have any additional questions or need your services?

0:20:58.9 VL: Yeah. So the best way to get ahold of us right now is through our office phone. I'll make sure that you guys have my information in the show notes, but to everyone listening, it's 505-343-2009. And please, please, please, leave us a message. We're getting hundreds of calls a day. And if we don't have a voicemail, we just can't call you back. We can't keep up with the demand. But I am happy to consult with your family. And even if you're not in a situation where you've had an encounter with ICE or Border Patrol, now is the best time to see if you have any options to fix your status in the United States. There's never been a better time to do so than now. So reach out to us. And then I'll also give you all my website so that you can book an intake on my website as well.

0:21:53.3 VB: Wonderful. I have a feeling that we will likely have you on again to continue conversations as we see them come up because they have come up in the few amount of days that all of this has kind of started. So we are so grateful for your time and the work that you are doing. And we so so appreciate you for coming back on.

0:22:16.1 VL: Aww, thank you guys. I'm happy to be back on. Anytime you need more information, let me know.

0:22:21.9 AS: Absolutely. And to our listeners, we're going to continue to update resources through our Instagram and Facebook pages. And we're hopefully going to have more shortened little bonus minisodes, if you will, as we get more information about some of the other executive orders and we'll be checking in with you shortly.

0:22:38.3 VB: And we'll still have regular content with wonderful people that we want to selfishly talk to. But you know, if there's anything that you would like us to shine some light on, please just send us a DM and we will get right to it. We will talk to you week after next.

0:22:55.8 AS: Bye.

0:22:56.7 VB: Bye.