1 00:00:00,833 --> 00:00:02,666 We just fell on our knees and we're like, "Lord, 2 00:00:03,458 --> 00:00:07,166 from now on, we want to follow You 3 00:00:07,166 --> 00:00:07,958 with all our hearts. 4 00:00:07,958 --> 00:00:08,958 We want to do everything." 5 00:00:08,958 --> 00:00:10,708 We had our Bible and we're like, "Lord, we want 6 00:00:10,708 --> 00:00:12,500 to do everything we see in this book, 7 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,083 even if it makes us weird." 8 00:00:15,333 --> 00:00:16,541 And I had no idea what I was 9 00:00:16,541 --> 00:00:18,500 saying, how weird I was going to become. 10 00:00:20,500 --> 00:00:23,000 And Dean always says, "It wasn't like any rockets 11 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,958 went off or anything, but it was like 12 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,750 this subtle feeling, one of those moments that 13 00:00:27,750 --> 00:00:30,916 like, okay, something has changed and 14 00:00:30,916 --> 00:00:32,541 things aren't going to be the same again." 15 00:00:38,541 --> 00:00:40,416 Tania, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. 16 00:00:40,916 --> 00:00:42,000 I've been wanting to do 17 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,833 this for a long time, actually. 18 00:00:46,083 --> 00:00:48,041 We've interviewed your husband, Dean, and got his 19 00:00:48,041 --> 00:00:50,666 story, but never, never sat down and 20 00:00:50,666 --> 00:00:52,041 got your story on this podcast. 21 00:00:52,541 --> 00:00:53,375 And I really want to do that. 22 00:00:53,625 --> 00:00:57,125 Just for some context, you were in the United 23 00:00:57,125 --> 00:01:00,375 States Army for a number of years and ultimately 24 00:01:00,416 --> 00:01:01,125 left that. 25 00:01:01,125 --> 00:01:02,875 And there's kind of a long story of the journey 26 00:01:02,875 --> 00:01:05,291 of trying to find a church community and work 27 00:01:05,291 --> 00:01:06,500 through these new convictions 28 00:01:06,500 --> 00:01:08,791 and things that you're learning. 29 00:01:09,333 --> 00:01:11,166 So we want to get that story today 30 00:01:11,166 --> 00:01:12,500 and just see where that takes us. 31 00:01:12,916 --> 00:01:14,250 So the first question I have for 32 00:01:14,250 --> 00:01:15,208 you, let's start at the beginning. 33 00:01:16,375 --> 00:01:17,000 Where were you born? 34 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:19,166 Were you raised in a Christian home? 35 00:01:19,166 --> 00:01:20,375 Tell me a bit of your upbringing. 36 00:01:20,833 --> 00:01:24,958 I was born in Irving, Texas, which is in Dallas 37 00:01:24,958 --> 00:01:28,125 County, which is sort of between Dallas-Fort 38 00:01:28,125 --> 00:01:28,416 Worth. 39 00:01:29,375 --> 00:01:31,458 Dallas-Fort Worth is like a big metroplex. 40 00:01:31,458 --> 00:01:32,625 So I was born and raised there. 41 00:01:33,500 --> 00:01:34,791 And I was born into a 42 00:01:34,791 --> 00:01:36,166 Christian home thanks to my mom. 43 00:01:36,375 --> 00:01:38,458 She was the backbone of-- 44 00:01:38,458 --> 00:01:40,791 very spiritually minded mom. 45 00:01:41,041 --> 00:01:43,541 And she and her sisters were all born again. 46 00:01:44,791 --> 00:01:47,041 And so we were brought up in the Assemblies of 47 00:01:47,041 --> 00:01:49,916 God Church until like some point when I 48 00:01:49,916 --> 00:01:54,083 was in my young teens, we started going to maybe 49 00:01:54,083 --> 00:01:56,541 churches that said they were non-affiliated 50 00:01:56,666 --> 00:01:58,083 or non-denominational, but 51 00:01:58,083 --> 00:02:00,250 they still had sort of like that. 52 00:02:00,500 --> 00:02:02,166 Maybe you'd call it charismatic flair. 53 00:02:03,083 --> 00:02:05,666 But I'm very thankful for that influence because 54 00:02:05,666 --> 00:02:09,125 I always tell people like as a child, I always 55 00:02:09,125 --> 00:02:11,791 marvel at this now, like they'd like lay hands on 56 00:02:11,791 --> 00:02:14,916 us and pray over us fervently and like 57 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:16,250 anoint us with oil and pray 58 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:17,833 like we cry out to the Lord. 59 00:02:18,041 --> 00:02:20,083 And I know I was meaning it with all my heart. 60 00:02:20,083 --> 00:02:24,708 Lord help me and come and bless me and guide my 61 00:02:24,708 --> 00:02:27,416 life, but didn't fully comprehend everything. 62 00:02:27,416 --> 00:02:29,750 But I think it's a neat thing that I had. 63 00:02:29,958 --> 00:02:32,291 And it was definitely not a 64 00:02:32,291 --> 00:02:34,625 perfect church growing up. 65 00:02:35,208 --> 00:02:38,083 But it was definitely where I received my faith. 66 00:02:39,083 --> 00:02:40,416 I grew up with the Christian 67 00:02:40,416 --> 00:02:41,958 television on in my home a lot. 68 00:02:42,333 --> 00:02:43,791 Pat Robertson, 700 Club. 69 00:02:44,583 --> 00:02:46,000 That was a big thing for our family. 70 00:02:46,458 --> 00:02:48,875 Oh my, we just respected him so much. 71 00:02:49,125 --> 00:02:51,208 I even campaigned for him when he came through. 72 00:02:51,208 --> 00:02:53,583 I went into the campaign center and helped 73 00:02:53,583 --> 00:02:55,000 support him for president. 74 00:02:55,250 --> 00:02:56,333 He was running for president. 75 00:02:56,666 --> 00:02:57,166 That's right. 76 00:02:58,791 --> 00:03:00,875 I forget what year, 1986 maybe 77 00:03:00,875 --> 00:03:02,541 or somewhere around that time. 78 00:03:02,791 --> 00:03:05,666 Yeah, because he's-- I think he's pretty-- 79 00:03:06,375 --> 00:03:07,875 He was a big deal back then. 80 00:03:08,125 --> 00:03:09,083 I mean, for my generation, 81 00:03:09,083 --> 00:03:10,083 we probably don't even know. 82 00:03:10,083 --> 00:03:11,375 We just really appreciated... 83 00:03:11,666 --> 00:03:13,125 He just was such an inspiration. 84 00:03:13,958 --> 00:03:16,500 So I saw testimonies all the time. 85 00:03:16,500 --> 00:03:17,791 People like Corrie Ten Boom. 86 00:03:18,125 --> 00:03:19,375 She's one of my favorite 87 00:03:19,375 --> 00:03:22,416 heroes of the faith, sort of modern day. 88 00:03:22,666 --> 00:03:25,250 But so many people like that telling one story 89 00:03:25,250 --> 00:03:27,708 after another after another of what the Lord 90 00:03:27,708 --> 00:03:28,541 did for them. 91 00:03:28,541 --> 00:03:30,333 And so it gave me this amazing, almost 92 00:03:30,333 --> 00:03:31,791 egotistical idea as a 93 00:03:31,791 --> 00:03:34,083 little girl, like, God is real. 94 00:03:34,083 --> 00:03:36,458 And like the way in our churches, we were 95 00:03:36,458 --> 00:03:38,041 sort of taught name and claim it. 96 00:03:38,041 --> 00:03:40,333 And I had to take a few steps back and realize 97 00:03:40,333 --> 00:03:43,875 sometimes the cross wasn't something 98 00:03:43,916 --> 00:03:44,750 you could name and claim. 99 00:03:45,041 --> 00:03:46,000 Like, you didn't necessarily 100 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,000 want what the Lord had in mind. 101 00:03:48,375 --> 00:03:50,958 But in essence, I think it gave me a great 102 00:03:50,958 --> 00:03:54,041 springboard of faith to say, yeah, the Lord 103 00:03:54,041 --> 00:03:54,541 is real. 104 00:03:55,208 --> 00:03:56,750 Why wouldn't anybody want him 105 00:03:56,750 --> 00:03:59,375 and what Jesus has done for us? 106 00:03:59,750 --> 00:04:01,500 So at what age would have 107 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:02,708 you made a profession of faith? 108 00:04:03,208 --> 00:04:04,375 Probably at the age of 15, 109 00:04:04,750 --> 00:04:06,125 made a profession of faith. 110 00:04:06,708 --> 00:04:09,458 And even before that, I have very many memories 111 00:04:09,458 --> 00:04:13,416 of just like crying out to God on my bed at night, 112 00:04:13,583 --> 00:04:14,875 you know, praying for my future 113 00:04:14,875 --> 00:04:17,000 husband, wherever he was or praying for. 114 00:04:18,083 --> 00:04:20,583 We had many financial hardships and praying that 115 00:04:20,583 --> 00:04:23,333 God would help us with our, I would pray 116 00:04:23,333 --> 00:04:26,041 he would provide for us miraculously. 117 00:04:26,333 --> 00:04:29,625 And I just had a faith as a little girl, but it 118 00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:31,833 doesn't mean I wasn't very naughty sometimes 119 00:04:31,833 --> 00:04:32,375 too. 120 00:04:33,291 --> 00:04:37,250 But I definitely treasure that seedbed of faith I 121 00:04:37,250 --> 00:04:39,916 got growing up in those churches where 122 00:04:40,166 --> 00:04:42,125 there were a lot of good things in place like 123 00:04:42,125 --> 00:04:45,125 women being keepers at home and if they 124 00:04:45,125 --> 00:04:48,500 were married and just, you know, father being the 125 00:04:48,500 --> 00:04:51,208 head of the home and, you know, children 126 00:04:51,208 --> 00:04:52,583 should respect their parents. 127 00:04:52,583 --> 00:04:54,166 And I felt like we had a lot of, you know, we ate 128 00:04:54,166 --> 00:04:55,375 dinner around the table every night 129 00:04:55,375 --> 00:04:56,166 as a family. 130 00:04:56,375 --> 00:04:59,083 And there were a lot of good things there that as 131 00:04:59,083 --> 00:05:00,958 I grew older, I recognized, well, 132 00:05:00,958 --> 00:05:03,000 I was privileged to have that. 133 00:05:03,916 --> 00:05:05,250 So I'm grateful for that now. 134 00:05:06,375 --> 00:05:07,958 So you have that upbringing. 135 00:05:08,333 --> 00:05:11,000 You know, you come to Christ, all of these 136 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,375 things, somewhere along those lines though, 137 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,000 you decide to enlist in the United States Army. 138 00:05:17,583 --> 00:05:19,750 Now what influenced that decision? 139 00:05:19,958 --> 00:05:22,375 Was that, was there a family history of that? 140 00:05:22,375 --> 00:05:25,000 Was there, oh, I really love this country and I 141 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:27,083 want to do this or was it, I mean, Texas, 142 00:05:27,375 --> 00:05:28,541 you know, some of the Texas 143 00:05:28,541 --> 00:05:30,041 side of things coming out. 144 00:05:30,041 --> 00:05:31,333 Like I just, what was the 145 00:05:31,333 --> 00:05:32,291 influence going on there? 146 00:05:32,291 --> 00:05:34,375 The biggest influence on that was my husband. 147 00:05:34,750 --> 00:05:38,750 I remember we were playing in a little Dixieland 148 00:05:38,750 --> 00:05:41,875 band at Six Flags Over Texas and a man came 149 00:05:41,875 --> 00:05:43,375 up to us and said, you know, you 150 00:05:43,375 --> 00:05:44,750 should think of joining the army band. 151 00:05:44,750 --> 00:05:46,250 You guys could be in the army band. 152 00:05:46,250 --> 00:05:49,208 I was sort of like not interested and Dean really 153 00:05:49,208 --> 00:05:50,916 engaged with this man and was wanting 154 00:05:50,916 --> 00:05:51,875 to know more about it. 155 00:05:51,875 --> 00:05:53,916 He said, you know, you could get the army college 156 00:05:53,916 --> 00:05:56,291 fund and it's just a wonderful career. 157 00:05:56,583 --> 00:05:59,000 And I would think, why, at that time I thought, 158 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,125 why would you want to join the army? 159 00:06:00,375 --> 00:06:03,291 But then I would, I remember going to visit Dean 160 00:06:03,291 --> 00:06:05,000 before we were married on the base and 161 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,333 I sort of caught, it's almost like I got the 162 00:06:08,333 --> 00:06:10,083 little bug of patriotism. 163 00:06:10,416 --> 00:06:12,708 I already had a little bit of that of my dad 164 00:06:12,708 --> 00:06:15,416 having come as a refugee to America at the 165 00:06:15,416 --> 00:06:17,958 age of 19 and being so grateful 166 00:06:17,958 --> 00:06:19,875 for the freedom we had in America. 167 00:06:20,125 --> 00:06:20,791 Where was he refugee from? 168 00:06:20,791 --> 00:06:21,583 Where was he a refugee from? 169 00:06:21,666 --> 00:06:21,916 Hungary. 170 00:06:22,708 --> 00:06:23,000 Oh, okay. 171 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,541 So he grew up in a lot of turmoil and 172 00:06:25,541 --> 00:06:27,916 particularly as a young man 173 00:06:27,916 --> 00:06:29,500 seeing the Hungarian revolution 174 00:06:29,791 --> 00:06:31,958 happening and he'd lived 175 00:06:31,958 --> 00:06:34,041 not far outside of Budapest. 176 00:06:35,041 --> 00:06:37,541 And yeah, he saw a lot of hard things like my 177 00:06:37,541 --> 00:06:40,500 grandfather and my great grandfather being 178 00:06:40,625 --> 00:06:43,125 taken to Siberian concentration camps. 179 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:46,583 And thank goodness they were able to escape by 180 00:06:46,583 --> 00:06:48,083 cutting a hole in the bottom of a rail 181 00:06:48,083 --> 00:06:51,458 car and walking all the way back apparently or 182 00:06:51,458 --> 00:06:52,791 found their way back somehow. 183 00:06:52,791 --> 00:06:53,708 So this would have been 184 00:06:53,708 --> 00:06:56,125 1940s, 50s, like after the war. Good question. 185 00:06:56,125 --> 00:06:56,291 186 00:06:56,291 --> 00:06:58,041 I don't really know those details. 187 00:06:58,333 --> 00:07:01,000 I just know that my dad says he remembers his dad 188 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,833 kissing him goodbye before he left 189 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:04,500 and he pretended to be asleep. 190 00:07:05,416 --> 00:07:06,708 And he said he was sort of sad. 191 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,625 He was always sad until his dad 192 00:07:08,625 --> 00:07:10,208 came home that he didn't let him know. 193 00:07:10,208 --> 00:07:12,500 I was aware you were giving me a kiss goodbye. 194 00:07:12,666 --> 00:07:15,041 But yeah, then my grandma would sit and look out 195 00:07:15,041 --> 00:07:16,875 the window apparently praying every day 196 00:07:17,041 --> 00:07:18,041 for him to come home. 197 00:07:18,583 --> 00:07:20,166 Then one day they come walking home, he said he 198 00:07:20,166 --> 00:07:21,458 almost didn't recognize him. 199 00:07:21,458 --> 00:07:22,958 It was the first time he 200 00:07:22,958 --> 00:07:24,125 had seen his dad with a beard. 201 00:07:25,083 --> 00:07:28,708 So it was like, wow, it was a big celebration for 202 00:07:28,708 --> 00:07:30,708 the whole, their community was really 203 00:07:30,708 --> 00:07:31,375 close. 204 00:07:31,375 --> 00:07:34,208 They still are sort of a close-knit community, 205 00:07:34,708 --> 00:07:36,875 so yeah. That's a wild story. 206 00:07:36,875 --> 00:07:39,541 So you have that in your family 207 00:07:39,541 --> 00:07:41,250 history and those are powerful stories. 208 00:07:42,083 --> 00:07:46,000 And so I can imagine, yeah, you come to America 209 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,333 as a refugee from a situation like that. 210 00:07:48,333 --> 00:07:48,583 Very grateful. 211 00:07:48,916 --> 00:07:51,833 So you would have felt that for sure growing up. 212 00:07:51,916 --> 00:07:53,375 So there was definitely a flavor of that. 213 00:07:54,208 --> 00:07:56,583 Patriotism, I value this country 214 00:07:56,583 --> 00:07:57,708 in what it stands for, freedom. 215 00:07:58,666 --> 00:07:59,500 Am I getting it about right? 216 00:07:59,583 --> 00:07:59,833 Absolutely. 217 00:08:00,125 --> 00:08:02,375 My dad always told me, don't ever take this 218 00:08:02,375 --> 00:08:04,500 country for granted because I know what it 219 00:08:04,500 --> 00:08:07,458 was like to see a lot of hard things that it 220 00:08:07,458 --> 00:08:09,583 doesn't always just go this nicely is what 221 00:08:09,583 --> 00:08:10,375 we're experiencing. 222 00:08:10,750 --> 00:08:15,500 And so it did definitely, I was grateful for it. 223 00:08:16,208 --> 00:08:17,833 They did give me an appreciation. 224 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,291 But it went to the next level when I married my 225 00:08:21,291 --> 00:08:24,333 husband because coming in as an army wife 226 00:08:25,041 --> 00:08:27,791 and just being so proud to be on that team. 227 00:08:28,333 --> 00:08:31,000 And we were very close-knit in Germany, kind of 228 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:32,875 like a little America over there, those 229 00:08:32,875 --> 00:08:34,541 of us who were stationed in that area. 230 00:08:34,958 --> 00:08:39,208 At that time I was an army bandsman wife and we 231 00:08:39,208 --> 00:08:40,708 kind of like hung out together. 232 00:08:40,708 --> 00:08:43,500 A lot of us went to the same Baptist church and 233 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:46,416 our youth leaders lived two stories above 234 00:08:46,416 --> 00:08:46,750 us. 235 00:08:47,416 --> 00:08:48,250 We had a neat relationship. 236 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:50,791 But that patriotic fervor, I 237 00:08:50,791 --> 00:08:53,875 definitely was very excited about that. 238 00:08:53,875 --> 00:08:58,291 I got that vision for that and it was very much 239 00:08:58,291 --> 00:09:00,208 something I believed in with all my heart. 240 00:09:01,666 --> 00:09:03,541 So yeah, it seemed to 241 00:09:03,541 --> 00:09:04,875 make sense to me at the time. 242 00:09:05,583 --> 00:09:09,000 So your husband would have enlisted before you? 243 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:09,916 Did you enlist at the same time? 244 00:09:09,916 --> 00:09:10,125 Yes, that's correct. 245 00:09:10,166 --> 00:09:12,708 He enlisted before we were married and then 246 00:09:12,708 --> 00:09:15,500 about, I don't know if it was about six months 247 00:09:15,500 --> 00:09:19,000 or more in, he came back to visit and asked me to 248 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:20,458 marry him and then six months later 249 00:09:20,458 --> 00:09:21,125 we were married. 250 00:09:23,041 --> 00:09:25,208 So then it took two months for the army to cut 251 00:09:25,208 --> 00:09:28,166 orders for me to come with a military 252 00:09:28,208 --> 00:09:30,000 ID as a family member and 253 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,208 then joined him there in Germany. 254 00:09:33,083 --> 00:09:35,750 But in less than a year from that time, I had 255 00:09:35,750 --> 00:09:40,875 decided to enlist myself and also joined, 256 00:09:41,208 --> 00:09:42,541 but I had to leave him for nine 257 00:09:42,541 --> 00:09:44,208 long months in order to do that. 258 00:09:44,958 --> 00:09:46,208 That was the bad part of the deal. 259 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:48,916 The nine months was just going through the 260 00:09:48,916 --> 00:09:51,375 initial initiation process, is that right? 261 00:09:51,958 --> 00:09:54,166 Well, yeah, basically, so first year you flown to 262 00:09:54,166 --> 00:09:56,125 basic training, which I was stationed to 263 00:09:56,125 --> 00:09:57,625 Fort Jackson, South Carolina. 264 00:09:58,583 --> 00:09:59,416 And that's two months. 265 00:09:59,625 --> 00:10:01,333 And there's often just a little bit of holding 266 00:10:01,333 --> 00:10:03,833 period before you start basic training and 267 00:10:03,833 --> 00:10:05,041 then maybe a little bit of 268 00:10:05,041 --> 00:10:06,708 holding period after you graduate. 269 00:10:07,458 --> 00:10:09,958 Then I was sent to the US Army Element School of 270 00:10:09,958 --> 00:10:12,541 Music in Virginia Beach, or Norfolk, Virginia, 271 00:10:13,333 --> 00:10:15,166 where we trained with the Army, Navy, and Marine 272 00:10:15,166 --> 00:10:18,500 Corps, all except the Air Force, all 273 00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:20,250 the military bands trained there. 274 00:10:20,750 --> 00:10:23,833 So I was there for six months, but so all in all, 275 00:10:23,833 --> 00:10:26,750 it took nine months before I was actually 276 00:10:27,333 --> 00:10:29,583 brought back to my husband in Germany. 277 00:10:30,541 --> 00:10:33,416 But this is the 1980s we're talking here, right? 278 00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:36,416 So Germany was divided, East/ West Germany, et cetera, 279 00:10:36,416 --> 00:10:38,833 the famous Berlin Wall and so forth, 280 00:10:38,833 --> 00:10:39,333 Iron Curtain. 281 00:10:39,791 --> 00:10:41,583 Now talk to me about that a little, 282 00:10:41,583 --> 00:10:43,833 because I'm removed enough from it. 283 00:10:43,833 --> 00:10:45,458 And I think our generation's kind of lost... 284 00:10:46,458 --> 00:10:48,500 My generation and younger has kind of lost touch of 285 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:50,916 kind of how crazy the world was there for 286 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:53,875 a couple decades with the divide between the USSR 287 00:10:53,875 --> 00:10:57,708 and the West and the arms race and the 288 00:10:57,708 --> 00:10:58,791 Cold War and all of these things. 289 00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:01,416 You're kind of close to the 290 00:11:01,416 --> 00:11:02,416 center of all of that, right? 291 00:11:02,416 --> 00:11:04,791 Because Germany was this, at least on a map, 292 00:11:05,083 --> 00:11:06,166 that's where the dividing lines were. 293 00:11:07,125 --> 00:11:08,250 Did that feel strange or was 294 00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:09,583 it like this is normal life? 295 00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:11,000 It definitely felt 296 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,333 strange visiting for my husband. 297 00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:17,083 I didn't go until the wall came down, but it 298 00:11:17,083 --> 00:11:18,750 definitely felt strange being aware of 299 00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:19,458 that, knowing how to 300 00:11:19,458 --> 00:11:21,916 affected my father and his family. 301 00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,791 My father was always afraid to go back and visit. 302 00:11:24,791 --> 00:11:26,291 He was afraid that it might 303 00:11:26,291 --> 00:11:29,041 endanger his family there in Hungary. 304 00:11:29,291 --> 00:11:31,000 And so, yeah, I was aware of some of those 305 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,416 strange things that seemed strange to me anyway. 306 00:11:35,208 --> 00:11:37,916 But after I joined the army and being in the army 307 00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:41,458 band there in Germany, I didn't really 308 00:11:42,166 --> 00:11:44,875 think of it as being anything to fear. 309 00:11:45,375 --> 00:11:48,708 Maybe I was clueless, but at the time it really 310 00:11:48,708 --> 00:11:52,000 didn't impact me a lot being there in the 311 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:52,583 army band. 312 00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:58,958 We had reforger where all the troops would come 313 00:11:58,958 --> 00:12:03,458 around and we'd all prepare how to defend 314 00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,875 an attack from Russia, but we all sort of would 315 00:12:06,875 --> 00:12:08,416 laugh about it like, "This is never 316 00:12:08,416 --> 00:12:09,125 going to happen." 317 00:12:12,208 --> 00:12:14,833 Maybe we were just little kids 318 00:12:14,833 --> 00:12:15,750 that didn't know better, 319 00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:18,083 but it just didn't really seem 320 00:12:18,291 --> 00:12:19,916 like an imminent threat or 321 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:21,291 anything to us at the time. 322 00:12:21,875 --> 00:12:23,666 It seems to me like what you're describing is 323 00:12:23,666 --> 00:12:27,041 like you just had your normal life in a 324 00:12:27,041 --> 00:12:27,583 way, right? 325 00:12:28,125 --> 00:12:28,333 Right, exactly. 326 00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:28,916 Absolutely, yes. 327 00:12:29,083 --> 00:12:31,375 And we really enjoyed being in the army band. 328 00:12:31,375 --> 00:12:32,666 For an army job, 329 00:12:32,666 --> 00:12:33,583 it's wonderful. 330 00:12:33,583 --> 00:12:35,833 You're doing as a musician what you love to do. 331 00:12:35,833 --> 00:12:37,291 We had a secondary job on the side. 332 00:12:37,291 --> 00:12:40,458 I was a band librarian and my husband was an 333 00:12:40,458 --> 00:12:43,208 armorer, which you probably heard that before 334 00:12:43,583 --> 00:12:45,000 But yeah, we loved it. 335 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,708 We were kind of like a little family even just as a 336 00:12:48,708 --> 00:12:51,875 band, so had a good time together. 337 00:12:51,875 --> 00:12:54,250 Yeah, this is an interesting 338 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:55,500 picture that you're painting. 339 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,625 I'm just trying to get my head around what this 340 00:12:57,625 --> 00:12:59,625 was like and what the context that you 341 00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:01,208 were experiencing. 342 00:13:02,791 --> 00:13:04,333 How long then were you a 343 00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:06,333 soldier in the United States Army? 344 00:13:06,333 --> 00:13:08,875 Just shy of three years. 345 00:13:09,208 --> 00:13:11,750 I would have fulfilled my three-year enlistment, 346 00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:14,791 but thankfully I was able to be released as 347 00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:17,708 honorably as a conscientious objector. 348 00:13:17,708 --> 00:13:19,666 So I was just shy of that, which was sort of hard 349 00:13:19,666 --> 00:13:21,625 for me because I felt like I don't 350 00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:23,333 want to be a quitter. 351 00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:25,500 And I wanted to be a good girl. 352 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:26,416 I wanted to be faithful. 353 00:13:26,416 --> 00:13:28,250 I wanted to do what I had sworn 354 00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:31,041 in my enlistment that I would do. 355 00:13:31,041 --> 00:13:32,791 So that was sort of hard. 356 00:13:32,791 --> 00:13:34,541 So yeah, talk to me about that. 357 00:13:34,541 --> 00:13:36,833 The process, well, I want to get into the bit of 358 00:13:36,833 --> 00:13:39,041 the process of what it takes to become 359 00:13:39,041 --> 00:13:40,583 a conscientious objector, the CO status. 360 00:13:41,083 --> 00:13:44,333 But before that, like what you're describing, it 361 00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:46,000 seems like you had a normal life. 362 00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:47,000 Things were fine. 363 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,583 You enjoyed it. 364 00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:51,250 Why go and upset this nice life 365 00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:52,666 that you and your husband have? 366 00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:53,875 What changed? 367 00:13:54,791 --> 00:13:56,041 Definitely, it was a God thing. 368 00:13:56,333 --> 00:13:57,625 I have no question about it. 369 00:13:58,791 --> 00:14:00,125 I think the first thing that you 370 00:14:00,125 --> 00:14:02,750 try to wonder what happened first. 371 00:14:03,208 --> 00:14:05,041 I look back at different things. 372 00:14:05,041 --> 00:14:06,458 There were Jehovah's Witnesses who would 373 00:14:06,458 --> 00:14:07,791 regularly come to our door. 374 00:14:08,666 --> 00:14:11,375 And at the time, so I'll back up a tiny bit, I 375 00:14:11,375 --> 00:14:13,208 ended up getting into the rock band with 376 00:14:13,208 --> 00:14:13,791 my husband. 377 00:14:15,125 --> 00:14:18,916 And we backslid in those days, being in the rock 378 00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:20,416 band, started playing clubs. 379 00:14:20,708 --> 00:14:23,000 And then you start missing church on Sunday 380 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,875 because you're out late on Saturday night. 381 00:14:25,208 --> 00:14:27,458 And besides, you want to practice on Sunday. 382 00:14:27,458 --> 00:14:28,583 And we started doing it on the 383 00:14:28,583 --> 00:14:30,375 side, not just in the army band. 384 00:14:31,625 --> 00:14:32,791 And I felt convicted. 385 00:14:33,125 --> 00:14:35,583 I knew I was like, I knew the Lord was sort of 386 00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:37,333 saying to me, you want to have one foot 387 00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:38,666 in the world and one foot with 388 00:14:38,666 --> 00:14:40,125 me, but you have to make a choice. 389 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,875 And I remember telling Dean, these Jehovah's 390 00:14:44,875 --> 00:14:46,458 Witnesses, they'd come and sit at our table 391 00:14:46,458 --> 00:14:48,125 and we try and reason 392 00:14:48,125 --> 00:14:49,666 with them on the scriptures. 393 00:14:49,666 --> 00:14:51,375 And I said, they're going 394 00:14:51,375 --> 00:14:52,500 door to door with a lie. 395 00:14:52,833 --> 00:14:54,666 And we have the truth and we're 396 00:14:54,666 --> 00:14:56,625 not really taking this seriously. 397 00:14:57,125 --> 00:14:59,541 So that was, Dean says that wasn't quite so 398 00:14:59,541 --> 00:15:04,083 influential in his moment of crisis or whatever. 399 00:15:04,083 --> 00:15:06,833 But for me, that was definitely a precursor to 400 00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:09,916 God working in my heart of convicting me 401 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,041 of my being sort of lukewarm, not just sort of 402 00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:16,916 definitely being lukewarm and careless 403 00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:18,958 with my commitment to Christ. 404 00:15:19,458 --> 00:15:21,958 And so then I remember the fateful moment and 405 00:15:21,958 --> 00:15:23,583 maybe you've heard Dean talk about this, 406 00:15:23,791 --> 00:15:25,250 that we walked into a 407 00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:26,500 Stars and Stripes bookstore. 408 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,666 It's basically just at the PX, there's a usually 409 00:15:29,666 --> 00:15:32,791 a little news stand and they had books there. 410 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:33,791 And there was a Christian 411 00:15:33,791 --> 00:15:37,416 book by the Keith Green's wife. 412 00:15:37,666 --> 00:15:42,000 He was the 1980s singer songwriter who also had a 413 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,833 radical testimony of just trying to 414 00:15:43,833 --> 00:15:45,375 be obedient and follow 415 00:15:45,375 --> 00:15:46,875 Christ no matter what the cost. 416 00:15:47,625 --> 00:15:49,625 And his book by his wife 417 00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:52,083 compiled the book, wrote the book. 418 00:15:52,083 --> 00:15:53,458 It's called No Compromise 419 00:15:53,458 --> 00:15:54,958 and her name is Melody Green. 420 00:15:55,916 --> 00:15:57,708 And that book, Dean picked it up. 421 00:15:57,708 --> 00:15:59,750 It's like this thick and it had a watercolor 422 00:15:59,750 --> 00:16:01,958 picture of Keith Green, like with a big afro 423 00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:02,625 on the front. 424 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:03,708 It looks sort of funny. 425 00:16:04,083 --> 00:16:06,708 And Dean used to say, he said, I haven't read 426 00:16:06,708 --> 00:16:08,708 since I was a kid, you know, and he didn't 427 00:16:08,708 --> 00:16:09,750 even like reading as a kid. 428 00:16:10,041 --> 00:16:10,375 He hated it. 429 00:16:10,375 --> 00:16:10,541 Really? 430 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,166 Oh, I wouldn't guess that now. 431 00:16:12,166 --> 00:16:12,625 He said the only thing I 432 00:16:12,625 --> 00:16:14,125 ever read was Artie the Smarty. 433 00:16:14,125 --> 00:16:15,208 I always thought it was so funny. 434 00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:17,416 But why did he think that book? 435 00:16:17,416 --> 00:16:19,416 Something about that book got his attention. 436 00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:22,250 He must have read something about a man with a 437 00:16:22,250 --> 00:16:24,458 commitment to follow Christ regardless the 438 00:16:24,458 --> 00:16:24,666 cost. 439 00:16:25,291 --> 00:16:25,791 He picked it up. 440 00:16:25,791 --> 00:16:27,208 I remember that moment very clearly. 441 00:16:27,416 --> 00:16:27,958 We both do. 442 00:16:27,958 --> 00:16:29,583 And him looking at me saying, I 443 00:16:29,583 --> 00:16:30,916 just really want to buy this book. 444 00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:31,750 I want to read this book. 445 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:33,958 And I was like, you'll never read that book. 446 00:16:33,958 --> 00:16:36,625 I said, but if it makes you happy, buy it. 447 00:16:37,458 --> 00:16:38,666 You know, it's okay. 448 00:16:38,666 --> 00:16:39,208 It's okay. 449 00:16:39,208 --> 00:16:40,250 Just buy it and take it home. 450 00:16:40,875 --> 00:16:43,083 But he read that book and he's been reading 451 00:16:43,083 --> 00:16:46,708 voraciously like a wild man ever since. 452 00:16:47,958 --> 00:16:51,166 And that book was so influential in our lives. 453 00:16:52,083 --> 00:16:52,958 And it was just, yeah, 454 00:16:52,958 --> 00:16:54,375 just seeing another musician. 455 00:16:55,625 --> 00:16:56,625 So we had that in common 456 00:16:56,625 --> 00:16:58,375 and he had lived near us. 457 00:16:58,375 --> 00:17:00,875 I remembered as a little girl listening to 458 00:17:00,875 --> 00:17:03,291 Christian radio and hearing that moment we 459 00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:07,000 heard on the radio that he had died suddenly in a 460 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,541 plane crash in East Texas. 461 00:17:10,333 --> 00:17:10,958 And I remember how it 462 00:17:10,958 --> 00:17:12,916 impacted me as a little girl. 463 00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:14,333 I had denial like, maybe 464 00:17:14,333 --> 00:17:15,833 we'll find out it's not true. 465 00:17:16,208 --> 00:17:18,208 You know, and so we were deeply touched. 466 00:17:18,416 --> 00:17:20,708 We knew some of his music, you know, as a little 467 00:17:20,708 --> 00:17:22,458 girl, I knew his music, some of it. 468 00:17:23,083 --> 00:17:24,541 But I grew to know more of 469 00:17:24,541 --> 00:17:25,750 it after reading his book. 470 00:17:26,833 --> 00:17:30,250 And was deeply impacted by the testimony he and 471 00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:34,416 his wife had to be wanting to do anything 472 00:17:34,666 --> 00:17:35,916 for the kingdom of heaven's sake. 473 00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:38,333 And that really got into us. 474 00:17:38,416 --> 00:17:41,583 That was a very important thing the Lord brought 475 00:17:41,583 --> 00:17:44,416 into my husband's hands and deeply 476 00:17:44,416 --> 00:17:45,375 impacted us. 477 00:17:46,416 --> 00:17:51,125 So that seems like a pivotal moment where it's 478 00:17:51,125 --> 00:17:53,500 like, okay, that's got you started taking 479 00:17:53,833 --> 00:17:55,833 at least some initial steps down a very different 480 00:17:55,833 --> 00:17:57,916 path than what you've been doing before. 481 00:17:58,750 --> 00:17:59,625 So then what happens next? 482 00:17:59,875 --> 00:18:01,625 So this gets you started, but tell 483 00:18:01,625 --> 00:18:02,916 me more of the steps of the process. 484 00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:06,250 Then the Holy Spirit starts convicting us very 485 00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:08,416 strongly to the point that we just finally 486 00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,750 one night on a band trip, we traveled all the 487 00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:14,041 time and had certain regular things we 488 00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:14,583 would do. 489 00:18:14,583 --> 00:18:16,750 And every year we do this thing called fasching, 490 00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:19,708 which is sort of like a European Mardi Gras 491 00:18:19,708 --> 00:18:20,458 or something. 492 00:18:20,458 --> 00:18:22,000 And people kind of go wild 493 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,625 dancing and drinking before Lent season. 494 00:18:25,416 --> 00:18:30,041 And it's very sad and sort of, yeah, just doesn't 495 00:18:30,041 --> 00:18:31,708 feel like a very godly season, you 496 00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:32,000 know. 497 00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:34,791 But during that time we were there playing and we 498 00:18:34,791 --> 00:18:37,291 went up to our motel room and we just 499 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:41,541 fell on our knees and we're like, Lord, we from 500 00:18:41,541 --> 00:18:44,833 now on, we don't want, we want to follow 501 00:18:44,833 --> 00:18:45,833 you with all our hearts. 502 00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:46,791 We want to do everything. 503 00:18:46,791 --> 00:18:47,500 We had our Bible. 504 00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,750 We're like, Lord, we want to do everything we see 505 00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:52,000 in this book, even if it makes us weird. 506 00:18:53,166 --> 00:18:54,416 And I had no idea what I was 507 00:18:54,416 --> 00:18:56,375 saying, how weird I was going to become. 508 00:18:57,458 --> 00:18:59,791 But it was, and you know, like Dean always says, 509 00:18:59,791 --> 00:19:01,333 it wasn't like any rockets went off 510 00:19:01,791 --> 00:19:04,125 or anything, but it was like this subtle feeling. 511 00:19:04,708 --> 00:19:06,916 One of those moments that like, okay, something 512 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,625 has changed and things aren't going to be 513 00:19:09,625 --> 00:19:10,375 the same again. 514 00:19:11,666 --> 00:19:13,833 And so that was sort of a turning point. 515 00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:17,041 And then it was just more and more conviction, 516 00:19:17,041 --> 00:19:18,333 you know, reading the scriptures in bed at 517 00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:20,375 night and my husband suddenly 518 00:19:20,375 --> 00:19:22,958 saying, whoa, I need you to hear this. 519 00:19:22,958 --> 00:19:23,875 Let me read this to you. 520 00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:26,625 He got to the Sermon on the Mount and he reads me 521 00:19:26,625 --> 00:19:29,458 one part of the passage, you know, probably 522 00:19:29,458 --> 00:19:30,250 Matthew 5. 523 00:19:31,375 --> 00:19:33,458 I don't know if you read all 5, 6, and 7, 524 00:19:33,458 --> 00:19:35,708 but I remember reading through it and 525 00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:38,458 Jesus saying, you know, to return good for evil 526 00:19:38,458 --> 00:19:40,250 and turn the other cheek and do good, 527 00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:41,333 go the extra mile. 528 00:19:41,333 --> 00:19:42,791 And he finished it and he 529 00:19:42,791 --> 00:19:43,750 said, what do you think of that? 530 00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:46,416 And I said, well, it sounds pretty simple to me. 531 00:19:47,125 --> 00:19:48,500 And he said, yeah, but we're in the army. 532 00:19:49,166 --> 00:19:51,333 Like he was good at thinking that I was like, you 533 00:19:51,333 --> 00:19:53,083 know, not taking it very seriously. 534 00:19:53,333 --> 00:19:55,583 Like, well, this has serious implications if we 535 00:19:55,583 --> 00:19:57,083 really believe what he's saying here. 536 00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:02,125 Before that point, how much scripture studies, 537 00:20:02,125 --> 00:20:03,541 scripture reading would you say that you would 538 00:20:03,541 --> 00:20:03,958 have been doing? 539 00:20:04,708 --> 00:20:06,291 You know, I was raised with a 540 00:20:06,291 --> 00:20:08,083 good amount of scripture from my mom. 541 00:20:08,083 --> 00:20:09,375 Like she was good at quoting 542 00:20:09,375 --> 00:20:10,958 scripture still is to this day. 543 00:20:11,458 --> 00:20:15,833 Very much more though, like, I don't know, Psalms 544 00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:18,916 and Proverbs and maybe certain other 545 00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,625 verses, but not a lot of Bible study at all. 546 00:20:24,958 --> 00:20:26,833 And for Dean, you know, I think we were just 547 00:20:26,833 --> 00:20:30,166 basically starting like with our Bibles open 548 00:20:30,166 --> 00:20:30,708 on our laps. 549 00:20:31,583 --> 00:20:34,291 And for the first time in my life, though, in a 550 00:20:34,291 --> 00:20:36,041 peculiar way, it was as though the Lord 551 00:20:36,041 --> 00:20:38,666 was speaking personally to both of us. 552 00:20:38,666 --> 00:20:39,750 And it was just amazing. 553 00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:42,833 I know I hear sad stories where maybe one spouse 554 00:20:42,833 --> 00:20:44,416 goes through it without the other and 555 00:20:44,416 --> 00:20:45,208 it causes friction. 556 00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:47,625 But for us, it was like Jesus was 557 00:20:47,625 --> 00:20:49,416 speaking to both of us personally. 558 00:20:50,583 --> 00:20:51,791 And it was just like one thing 559 00:20:51,791 --> 00:20:53,250 would have to happen after another. 560 00:20:53,541 --> 00:20:56,750 And it was exciting, but scary because it had 561 00:20:56,750 --> 00:20:59,375 serious implications for our commitment 562 00:20:59,833 --> 00:21:00,875 as US soldiers. 563 00:21:02,750 --> 00:21:06,750 Yeah, like I think that's the part that wrestling 564 00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:10,583 with a little bit because like this is not 565 00:21:10,583 --> 00:21:11,958 on your horizons at all. 566 00:21:11,958 --> 00:21:14,000 It sounds like until this point. 567 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:14,500 Not at all. 568 00:21:14,791 --> 00:21:17,208 I had no idea this was about to happen. 569 00:21:17,958 --> 00:21:19,166 I mean, it's just crazy. 570 00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:22,375 And just something about that recommitment to 571 00:21:22,375 --> 00:21:25,041 Christ and being sorry that I had failed 572 00:21:25,083 --> 00:21:28,000 him, just going so lukewarm 573 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,541 and not standing for him anymore. 574 00:21:30,791 --> 00:21:33,375 I was wanting to just be cool and be in a rock 575 00:21:33,375 --> 00:21:36,333 band and drink with my friends and do 576 00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:37,750 all these things and just not 577 00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:41,250 be very set apart for the Lord. 578 00:21:42,041 --> 00:21:45,291 I was convicted by that, that my failure. 579 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,208 Yeah. 580 00:21:46,875 --> 00:21:48,583 And instead of doing those things, you start 581 00:21:48,583 --> 00:21:50,416 going the other direction and reading your 582 00:21:50,416 --> 00:21:52,541 Bible and getting serious about 583 00:21:52,541 --> 00:21:54,416 what does Jesus want me to do here? 584 00:21:55,125 --> 00:21:56,833 Ooh, that must have been disorienting though. 585 00:21:56,833 --> 00:21:57,250 It was. 586 00:21:57,458 --> 00:21:57,791 It was. 587 00:21:58,708 --> 00:22:03,125 So yeah, so Dean's just looking at this and I'm 588 00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:04,666 the type of person I might have been able 589 00:22:04,666 --> 00:22:07,958 to leave it there and say, "Well, it's okay. 590 00:22:07,958 --> 00:22:09,083 The Lord will bless this." 591 00:22:09,083 --> 00:22:11,541 But it was at that time where it 592 00:22:11,541 --> 00:22:12,958 was heating up in the Middle East. 593 00:22:13,125 --> 00:22:15,000 It was on the front pages of all those little 594 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,416 newspapers we'd see there at the Stars and 595 00:22:17,416 --> 00:22:18,041 Stripes bookstores. 596 00:22:18,416 --> 00:22:20,083 And I think all of us were getting a little 597 00:22:20,083 --> 00:22:22,375 nervous, like, "What's about to happen here? 598 00:22:22,375 --> 00:22:23,916 This is a little scary." 599 00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:24,166 Yeah. 600 00:22:24,458 --> 00:22:27,375 So this would have been Berlin Wall or the Iron 601 00:22:27,375 --> 00:22:29,875 Curtain, you know, falls 1989, right? 602 00:22:30,041 --> 00:22:31,500 So y'all would have been in Germany for then? 603 00:22:32,291 --> 00:22:33,416 1989, yeah. 604 00:22:33,416 --> 00:22:33,833 Yeah. 605 00:22:33,833 --> 00:22:35,583 So y'all would have been in Germany for that, 606 00:22:35,583 --> 00:22:37,791 which I think Dean was at the Wall. 607 00:22:37,791 --> 00:22:38,250 Or you were at the Wall. 608 00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:39,041 We were both there. 609 00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:39,416 Oh. 610 00:22:39,416 --> 00:22:39,625 Oh. 611 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,666 And with the other couple, Dawn and Rick Shirley 612 00:22:42,666 --> 00:22:43,583 who, most of our 613 00:22:43,583 --> 00:22:45,583 friends, we would share our new insight with 614 00:22:45,583 --> 00:22:47,208 them, our Christian friends, and they would be 615 00:22:47,208 --> 00:22:48,791 like totally not getting it. 616 00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:52,458 They were actually disappointed in us sometimes. 617 00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:55,500 And maybe they were saying things like, "Dean, 618 00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:57,458 you're asking questions Christians shouldn't 619 00:22:57,458 --> 00:22:58,083 be asking." 620 00:22:58,458 --> 00:23:00,791 And they didn't quite understand. 621 00:23:01,083 --> 00:23:02,416 And they were worried about us. 622 00:23:02,416 --> 00:23:03,083 They were thinking, "Oh, 623 00:23:03,083 --> 00:23:04,166 they're ruining their lives. 624 00:23:04,166 --> 00:23:05,666 They're about to go off the rails here." 625 00:23:06,625 --> 00:23:09,416 But this one couple, they would sit and look at 626 00:23:09,416 --> 00:23:11,666 these verses with us and they said, "You're 627 00:23:11,708 --> 00:23:12,125 right. 628 00:23:13,208 --> 00:23:14,291 Jesus does say that. 629 00:23:14,291 --> 00:23:15,750 Now what are we going to do?" 630 00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:18,375 And so the four of us, it was kind of a blessing 631 00:23:18,375 --> 00:23:21,291 to have this other couple who we were already 632 00:23:21,291 --> 00:23:24,916 good friends with, pursue this journey together. 633 00:23:25,208 --> 00:23:27,458 Like does Jesus want us to really do this? 634 00:23:28,125 --> 00:23:30,041 And so we had gone to the Berlin Wall together 635 00:23:30,041 --> 00:23:34,208 with another guy and Martin Ripple was his 636 00:23:34,208 --> 00:23:37,125 name and oh, and Jeff Hall. 637 00:23:37,708 --> 00:23:39,500 And we had a good time there. 638 00:23:39,875 --> 00:23:41,666 But it was, yeah, Dean says stark difference 639 00:23:41,666 --> 00:23:44,916 between before it had been the communist era 640 00:23:45,041 --> 00:23:48,125 and all the machine guns and concertina wire. 641 00:23:48,541 --> 00:23:50,750 And now it's like the wall's coming down. 642 00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,666 People are trying to batter it down, whether with 643 00:23:53,666 --> 00:23:57,000 their car or battering rams and shaking 644 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:57,958 the hands through the 645 00:23:57,958 --> 00:24:00,041 wall, saying peace and brother. 646 00:24:00,791 --> 00:24:03,500 And yeah, we're like, "Wow, that really got a 647 00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:04,500 hold of our hearts too." 648 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:05,416 I think for my husband, 649 00:24:05,416 --> 00:24:07,625 that was deeply impactful. 650 00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:09,958 There's a lot of symbology in that. 651 00:24:10,416 --> 00:24:11,583 Okay, well, let me back up a little bit. 652 00:24:12,208 --> 00:24:14,791 Just the fact that you happened to be in Berlin 653 00:24:14,791 --> 00:24:16,541 at the time that this happened is kind of 654 00:24:16,541 --> 00:24:16,750 wild. 655 00:24:16,958 --> 00:24:17,166 That was amazing. 656 00:24:17,458 --> 00:24:20,708 For the 20th century, that's one of the 657 00:24:20,708 --> 00:24:22,791 significant events that happened. 658 00:24:23,375 --> 00:24:24,583 So for you all to witness that, 659 00:24:24,583 --> 00:24:25,625 that must have been formative. 660 00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:27,541 But there's also some symbolism there. 661 00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,083 The other side of that wall is the enemy. 662 00:24:30,333 --> 00:24:30,625 Exactly. 663 00:24:30,958 --> 00:24:32,458 And I guess, yeah, for 664 00:24:32,458 --> 00:24:33,708 America, it absolutely was. 665 00:24:34,541 --> 00:24:36,666 And then you saw that barrier kind 666 00:24:36,666 --> 00:24:38,125 of disappear in front of your eyes. 667 00:24:38,333 --> 00:24:38,916 That must have done 668 00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,541 something to your thought process. 669 00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:43,500 It was definitely one another God thing. 670 00:24:43,958 --> 00:24:47,791 I remember snapping that shot of Dean on the 671 00:24:47,791 --> 00:24:50,416 front of our book and shaking hands. 672 00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:53,375 I haven't looked at this picture in a while. 673 00:24:54,041 --> 00:24:56,083 Your husband wrote a book, A Change of 674 00:24:56,083 --> 00:24:57,416 Allegiance, which we talked 675 00:24:57,416 --> 00:24:58,916 about when I interviewed him 676 00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:01,541 previously, but grasping through 677 00:25:01,541 --> 00:25:03,833 the wall and shaking hands with... 678 00:25:04,541 --> 00:25:06,000 Who was it on the other side? Do you know? 679 00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:08,500 Maybe just a German soldier? 680 00:25:09,166 --> 00:25:11,750 I think he was in uniform. 681 00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:12,541 I think he was a soldier. 682 00:25:13,708 --> 00:25:15,041 So again, that's the enemy. 683 00:25:15,416 --> 00:25:15,791 That's the enemy. 684 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:19,375 But my husband could correct me if I'm mistaken 685 00:25:19,375 --> 00:25:21,208 on that, but I believe he was a soldier. 686 00:25:21,583 --> 00:25:24,666 And there was definitely something happening that 687 00:25:24,666 --> 00:25:26,708 wasn't just between my husband and this 688 00:25:26,708 --> 00:25:27,083 man. 689 00:25:27,083 --> 00:25:29,208 But I feel like God was trying to get a lot of 690 00:25:29,208 --> 00:25:30,583 people's attention through this. 691 00:25:31,208 --> 00:25:34,166 And we definitely came away saying, "Wow, you 692 00:25:34,166 --> 00:25:35,875 mean yesterday I could have been called 693 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:37,291 upon to kill this man. 694 00:25:37,875 --> 00:25:39,000 And now he wants to shake 695 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,375 my hand and be my friend." 696 00:25:41,291 --> 00:25:43,333 And the wall's coming down and we're thinking, 697 00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:45,583 "Didn't Jesus bring that wall down many, 698 00:25:45,583 --> 00:25:47,708 many years ago with his death on the cross?" 699 00:25:48,458 --> 00:25:51,000 Definitely there was something happening in our 700 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,041 hearts through this little pivotal moment. 701 00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:57,000 Yeah, again, the layers of symbolism there is 702 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,041 pretty heavy because how with just quick 703 00:26:03,166 --> 00:26:05,000 little things can change in 704 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,541 the world of geopolitics, say. 705 00:26:07,958 --> 00:26:09,708 And the line gets redrawn on a map and suddenly 706 00:26:09,708 --> 00:26:11,416 who you would have had to fight last week 707 00:26:11,416 --> 00:26:14,708 is now not the enemy anymore or is an ally even. 708 00:26:15,541 --> 00:26:16,041 It's crazy. 709 00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:18,875 Which this is a bit tangential, but the guy on 710 00:26:18,875 --> 00:26:20,958 this, where Dean's shaking his hand, loved 711 00:26:20,958 --> 00:26:21,958 to know where he is today. 712 00:26:22,750 --> 00:26:23,416 Wouldn't that be something? 713 00:26:23,708 --> 00:26:25,166 That was literally going through my mind right now. 714 00:26:25,166 --> 00:26:26,458 Wouldn't you love to find him? 715 00:26:26,458 --> 00:26:28,000 Yeah, how that story ends. 716 00:26:28,541 --> 00:26:31,041 And to think, "Oh, how different though those 717 00:26:31,041 --> 00:26:33,458 stories could have ended where there maybe 718 00:26:33,458 --> 00:26:34,750 could have been a conflict and 719 00:26:34,750 --> 00:26:35,625 that would have been the enemy." 720 00:26:36,708 --> 00:26:38,791 Anyway, so that's context of 721 00:26:38,791 --> 00:26:40,250 what is going through your mind. 722 00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:42,750 You're doing a lot of studies through scripture. 723 00:26:43,083 --> 00:26:46,166 You're reanalyzing a lot of your belief systems. 724 00:26:46,625 --> 00:26:47,750 The wall has come down. 725 00:26:47,958 --> 00:26:48,750 So that's getting you 726 00:26:48,750 --> 00:26:49,750 thinking about a lot of stuff. 727 00:26:50,125 --> 00:26:52,041 The Middle East is starting to get 728 00:26:52,041 --> 00:26:53,583 kind of crazy at this point, right? 729 00:26:54,250 --> 00:26:55,916 I'm guessing you're going for it, right, Saddam 730 00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:57,208 Hussein and all of this. 731 00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:58,750 That would have been 1991, right? 732 00:26:59,333 --> 00:27:01,208 Yep, a little before that. 733 00:27:02,166 --> 00:27:06,416 Our band was shifted from our normal duties to... 734 00:27:06,416 --> 00:27:07,916 They always told us, "You're a soldier first. 735 00:27:08,166 --> 00:27:09,125 Never forget it." 736 00:27:09,416 --> 00:27:11,583 So we put the flutes and tubas down and we were 737 00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:14,416 sent to Ramstein Air Base to ship missiles 738 00:27:14,416 --> 00:27:15,125 to Iraq. 739 00:27:15,125 --> 00:27:18,500 But at that time, we four who were considering 740 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,333 becoming conscientious objectors, we were 741 00:27:20,375 --> 00:27:24,250 just like, "We can't ship missiles to Iraq until 742 00:27:24,250 --> 00:27:27,541 we determine whether this is actually 743 00:27:27,541 --> 00:27:28,708 okay or not." 744 00:27:29,375 --> 00:27:31,500 And I say, I believe at that time we would have 745 00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:34,666 already initiated the request to become 746 00:27:34,958 --> 00:27:36,291 conscientious objectors. 747 00:27:36,875 --> 00:27:40,750 So we submitted a form and we were able to initiate 748 00:27:40,750 --> 00:27:43,083 that process, which took eight long months 749 00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:45,208 or maybe it was nine, eight or nine long months. 750 00:27:45,875 --> 00:27:46,041 Yeah. 751 00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:50,291 But during that process, did you still have to 752 00:27:50,291 --> 00:27:52,958 perform duties like packaging up missiles 753 00:27:52,958 --> 00:27:55,875 that'd be used in a manner that obviously you're 754 00:27:55,875 --> 00:27:57,166 running into convictions that says, 755 00:27:57,166 --> 00:27:58,458 "I can't do that," right? 756 00:27:58,458 --> 00:27:58,666 Yeah. 757 00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:01,541 Luckily in our country, we do provide an out for 758 00:28:01,541 --> 00:28:03,125 people with a crisis of conscience. 759 00:28:03,416 --> 00:28:05,541 Now, if they would have determined in all of 760 00:28:05,541 --> 00:28:08,250 their investigation, you have a court hearing, 761 00:28:08,250 --> 00:28:09,625 you go to a psychologist or 762 00:28:09,625 --> 00:28:11,333 psychiatrist, I forget how. 763 00:28:12,208 --> 00:28:14,541 And you have your friends who are called to 764 00:28:14,541 --> 00:28:16,000 witness about your life. 765 00:28:16,958 --> 00:28:18,375 Let's say you write a long paper 766 00:28:18,375 --> 00:28:19,833 and it's all sent to the Pentagon. 767 00:28:20,708 --> 00:28:22,750 If looking through all of that file, they would 768 00:28:22,750 --> 00:28:24,875 have determined, "I had enlisted fraudulently. 769 00:28:25,083 --> 00:28:27,166 I probably might have gone to jail." 770 00:28:28,333 --> 00:28:31,583 But if you do have a sincere crisis of 771 00:28:31,583 --> 00:28:32,500 conscience, there is 772 00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:35,208 provision for a person in that, but 773 00:28:35,208 --> 00:28:37,416 they do have to follow the protocol 774 00:28:37,416 --> 00:28:39,166 to determine whether you're sincere. 775 00:28:40,291 --> 00:28:44,083 So luckily we had a wonderful counselor who was 776 00:28:44,083 --> 00:28:45,250 able to help us with that. 777 00:28:45,458 --> 00:28:48,375 His name was Andre Gingerich Stoner, and he and 778 00:28:48,375 --> 00:28:51,500 his wife were stationed there by Mennonite 779 00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:52,750 Central Committee, I believe. 780 00:28:53,541 --> 00:28:56,041 And they were there for people like us. 781 00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,791 And my husband sent a letter to 782 00:28:58,791 --> 00:29:01,500 Hearald Press, who sent a letter to... 783 00:29:02,541 --> 00:29:05,541 Somehow got to one place to another until they 784 00:29:05,541 --> 00:29:07,875 put us in contact with him and his wife, 785 00:29:08,166 --> 00:29:11,708 Kathy, and they were very helpful in helping us 786 00:29:11,708 --> 00:29:14,666 know what the regulations are, what the 787 00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:18,083 laws are surrounding conscientious objector 788 00:29:18,291 --> 00:29:22,791 status, and particularly in between time where 789 00:29:23,333 --> 00:29:24,416 you feel very vulnerable. 790 00:29:25,083 --> 00:29:25,750 Well, yeah. 791 00:29:26,333 --> 00:29:27,958 Well, and that's where I want to drill into this 792 00:29:27,958 --> 00:29:31,375 a little bit, where what you were describing 793 00:29:31,458 --> 00:29:34,083 before, it wasn't like you 794 00:29:34,083 --> 00:29:35,166 were having a terrible time. 795 00:29:36,166 --> 00:29:37,500 You're doing what you enjoyed. 796 00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:38,333 You have friends. 797 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:39,458 This is your world. 798 00:29:39,666 --> 00:29:40,791 It's part of your life. 799 00:29:41,416 --> 00:29:43,875 And I would also say, I'm sure we'll see this in 800 00:29:43,875 --> 00:29:45,875 the comments and whatever, people will 801 00:29:45,875 --> 00:29:47,791 probably be like, "Oh my, come on, you were in 802 00:29:47,791 --> 00:29:48,833 the army band, big deal. 803 00:29:49,125 --> 00:29:50,250 Just finish through with your 804 00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:52,250 enlistment and just leave like that. 805 00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,916 Why did you go through this CO process and why 806 00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:56,958 make a big to-do over this? 807 00:29:56,958 --> 00:29:58,000 It's really not a big deal. 808 00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:58,583 It's not like they were 809 00:29:58,583 --> 00:29:59,833 asking you to go kill people." 810 00:30:00,458 --> 00:30:02,000 Because at the core of 811 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,208 it, that's the big question. 812 00:30:03,458 --> 00:30:04,666 Where Jesus says, "You have to love your enemy." 813 00:30:04,666 --> 00:30:06,750 Well you can't love someone if you shoot 814 00:30:06,791 --> 00:30:07,208 them right. 815 00:30:07,375 --> 00:30:07,875 Yeah, absolutely. 816 00:30:07,958 --> 00:30:09,791 So talk to me about that. 817 00:30:10,041 --> 00:30:11,916 Your convictions must have been pretty serious to 818 00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,125 say, "No, we're still going to go through 819 00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:13,791 with this process." 820 00:30:14,583 --> 00:30:14,791 Why? 821 00:30:15,041 --> 00:30:15,416 Yeah. 822 00:30:15,416 --> 00:30:16,416 Why rock the boat? 823 00:30:16,416 --> 00:30:18,458 I think there was something inside of my husband 824 00:30:18,458 --> 00:30:21,208 in particular that helped keep us strong that 825 00:30:21,375 --> 00:30:22,625 it's either right or wrong. 826 00:30:23,625 --> 00:30:24,541 There's no middle ground. 827 00:30:24,541 --> 00:30:27,666 If Jesus says, "Don't kill," something is very 828 00:30:27,666 --> 00:30:29,458 wrong on one side or the other that's 829 00:30:29,458 --> 00:30:33,416 just like, you know, and incidentally, soon after 830 00:30:33,416 --> 00:30:35,750 we were released as conscientious objectors, 831 00:30:36,291 --> 00:30:37,500 our unit was shipped to Iraq. 832 00:30:38,041 --> 00:30:40,291 So we went from shipping missiles to I don't know 833 00:30:40,291 --> 00:30:42,708 what they did there, but it's all part 834 00:30:42,708 --> 00:30:44,916 of the support effort for the war. 835 00:30:45,333 --> 00:30:47,666 And I was so thankful I didn't have to 836 00:30:47,666 --> 00:30:48,708 participate in that 837 00:30:48,708 --> 00:30:50,625 bloodshed, which, you know, again, 838 00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:53,916 maybe not everyone's going to see that, but with 839 00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:56,083 the, you know, seeing what Jesus has 840 00:30:56,083 --> 00:30:58,125 shown me, you know, was something 841 00:30:58,125 --> 00:30:59,791 I needed to be faithful and just... 842 00:31:00,333 --> 00:31:01,958 And again, my husband helped us, I think. 843 00:31:03,208 --> 00:31:05,458 Having the other couple there, Dawn and Rick 844 00:31:05,458 --> 00:31:07,666 Shirley, that just strengthened us to have, 845 00:31:07,666 --> 00:31:09,208 you know, fellow people with us 846 00:31:09,208 --> 00:31:11,250 saying, "No, we need to stand strong. 847 00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:13,083 We need to be willing to go to jail for this." 848 00:31:13,791 --> 00:31:15,625 Because yeah, there's no middle ground. 849 00:31:16,208 --> 00:31:17,708 It's either right or it's wrong. 850 00:31:18,125 --> 00:31:18,416 And so... 851 00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:21,416 And so you would have come to the position that 852 00:31:21,416 --> 00:31:25,333 being part of the US military industrial 853 00:31:25,416 --> 00:31:28,666 complex, whatever you want to call it, in any way 854 00:31:28,666 --> 00:31:29,750 would have been considered... 855 00:31:30,041 --> 00:31:31,791 I just can't do that. 856 00:31:32,250 --> 00:31:36,041 Even though your role wasn't a combat role, at 857 00:31:36,041 --> 00:31:37,916 least when you started the paperwork. 858 00:31:38,208 --> 00:31:39,416 Yeah, at least when you started the paperwork. 859 00:31:39,416 --> 00:31:40,666 Now, maybe that would have changed later. 860 00:31:42,291 --> 00:31:43,416 Am I getting that about right? 861 00:31:43,416 --> 00:31:44,416 Well, and here's the thing. 862 00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:46,333 It's like, I realize there might be other people 863 00:31:46,333 --> 00:31:49,250 out there who don't agree with Jesus' 864 00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:51,875 teachings or whatever, but if you are someone who 865 00:31:51,875 --> 00:31:54,500 does see that, I would find everything 866 00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,750 in my power to both be a law abiding citizen, but 867 00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:59,750 hopefully not have to help in the war 868 00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:00,166 effort. 869 00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:01,875 Maybe help as a medic. 870 00:32:01,875 --> 00:32:04,875 Like, I do want to show that we're also being 871 00:32:04,875 --> 00:32:07,500 willing to lay our lives down and serve our 872 00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:10,416 time where maybe we're asked, maybe we're needed 873 00:32:10,416 --> 00:32:13,541 for a draft or whatever as Christians. 874 00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,291 But to do the most we can to say, "I'm opposed to 875 00:32:17,291 --> 00:32:21,208 the bloodshed and Jesus says not to kill. 876 00:32:21,958 --> 00:32:24,375 I'd be willing to die for my faith, but I also 877 00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:27,625 want to, the best of my ability, also 878 00:32:27,708 --> 00:32:30,333 be willing to do my time, so to 879 00:32:30,333 --> 00:32:32,250 speak, or some other support role." 880 00:32:32,583 --> 00:32:34,958 So it's like, yeah, I don't want to have to 881 00:32:34,958 --> 00:32:37,041 support the greater killing institution. 882 00:32:37,541 --> 00:32:41,000 I realize I'm of a different kingdom, but I think 883 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,666 there's something about being respectful 884 00:32:43,666 --> 00:32:46,916 and being willing to serve our time as 885 00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:48,250 Anabaptists, not to just live 886 00:32:48,250 --> 00:32:49,333 back and enjoy the liberties 887 00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:51,958 without it ever costing us anything. 888 00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:58,416 I think that is an important piece because I've 889 00:32:58,416 --> 00:33:01,291 heard different friends and people say, 890 00:33:01,291 --> 00:33:03,166 "Well, it's really easy for you to sit here in 891 00:33:03,166 --> 00:33:06,083 your comfortable, safe country and criticize 892 00:33:06,750 --> 00:33:09,333 the military, and I could never be a part of it." 893 00:33:10,708 --> 00:33:13,916 And to an extent, I do see what they're saying, 894 00:33:14,833 --> 00:33:18,208 but I think your point there is also really 895 00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:18,916 important. 896 00:33:19,041 --> 00:33:22,083 There are other ways we can serve our 897 00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:23,666 communities, the people 898 00:33:23,666 --> 00:33:26,875 around us that are obviously not 899 00:33:26,875 --> 00:33:30,750 part of the war, things like that. 900 00:33:32,166 --> 00:33:33,500 I think that's an important piece. 901 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:34,875 And so that would have been some of what you all 902 00:33:34,875 --> 00:33:36,375 were wrestling with as well, right? 903 00:33:36,375 --> 00:33:38,250 We're trying to figure our way through on that. 904 00:33:39,083 --> 00:33:43,375 What's the right way to be respectful and show 905 00:33:43,375 --> 00:33:48,041 good conscience, but also know that we 906 00:33:48,083 --> 00:33:48,958 have to serve Christ 907 00:33:48,958 --> 00:33:52,125 first and He has a better way. 908 00:33:53,208 --> 00:33:58,541 And you came to the belief that Christ would not 909 00:33:58,541 --> 00:34:00,833 have packaged missiles for Iraq to be 910 00:34:00,833 --> 00:34:04,291 used against other humans, basically, to get it 911 00:34:04,291 --> 00:34:06,916 really real and to your specific situation. 912 00:34:07,166 --> 00:34:07,375 Absolutely. 913 00:34:07,791 --> 00:34:09,958 My husband always says, "Jesus gave us what He 914 00:34:09,958 --> 00:34:12,291 feels is the blueprint for humanity." 915 00:34:13,166 --> 00:34:14,416 It's just a great plan. 916 00:34:14,875 --> 00:34:16,083 It promotes life. 917 00:34:16,791 --> 00:34:18,291 It values every human being. 918 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:21,041 It doesn't need to be on the shifting stands of 919 00:34:21,041 --> 00:34:26,625 politics or greed or lines in the sand 920 00:34:26,625 --> 00:34:31,208 like we're all human and having to be divided by 921 00:34:31,208 --> 00:34:33,875 cultures or nationalities is sad. 922 00:34:35,250 --> 00:34:38,208 So you go through this CO process, conscientious 923 00:34:38,208 --> 00:34:40,208 objecter process, which I want to put 924 00:34:40,208 --> 00:34:42,666 an aside in here and say it's pretty phenomenal 925 00:34:42,666 --> 00:34:45,000 that the American government allows for that. 926 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:45,541 It really is. 927 00:34:46,125 --> 00:34:47,541 It used to not, by the way. 928 00:34:48,125 --> 00:34:49,833 During World War I, there was a lot 929 00:34:49,833 --> 00:34:51,416 of Mennonites,/Amish, things like that. 930 00:34:51,416 --> 00:34:52,625 that got called up in the draft. 931 00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:54,583 "We can't kill." 932 00:34:55,041 --> 00:34:55,541 It's against... 933 00:34:55,916 --> 00:34:57,083 Well, there was no provision for that. 934 00:34:57,083 --> 00:34:59,291 I mean, they were horribly treated in many cases. 935 00:34:59,791 --> 00:35:01,791 And then when World War II came, a lot of that 936 00:35:01,791 --> 00:35:03,583 changed, which I think we can all be 937 00:35:03,666 --> 00:35:04,708 very thankful for that. 938 00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:05,166 Yes, very. 939 00:35:05,666 --> 00:35:08,416 It's part of why my dad was so grateful for some 940 00:35:08,416 --> 00:35:10,291 things we have in America that it really 941 00:35:10,416 --> 00:35:12,208 are a great blessing. 942 00:35:12,833 --> 00:35:14,125 So you go through that process. 943 00:35:14,416 --> 00:35:15,583 I mean, apparently they 944 00:35:15,583 --> 00:35:17,916 accepted your papers and let you go. 945 00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:18,166 Yes, they did. 946 00:35:18,166 --> 00:35:19,583 In fact, all four of us. 947 00:35:20,125 --> 00:35:21,291 And my husband always tells the 948 00:35:21,291 --> 00:35:22,916 story because it was an amazing story. 949 00:35:23,166 --> 00:35:26,000 But so like the man who had done our court trial, 950 00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:28,875 he finally shows up at the man hall 951 00:35:29,041 --> 00:35:32,125 and we're called up to a small little office and 952 00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:35,916 we come to attention and salute and he 953 00:35:35,916 --> 00:35:38,166 puts us at ease and... which is 954 00:35:38,166 --> 00:35:40,375 a military... like you relax. 955 00:35:41,166 --> 00:35:45,041 And we saw the four manila envelopes sitting on 956 00:35:45,041 --> 00:35:49,041 the desk and he says, "Well, I have the 957 00:35:49,041 --> 00:35:50,333 results of your conscientious 958 00:35:50,333 --> 00:35:53,333 objector appeals or whatever." 959 00:35:55,541 --> 00:35:58,375 But before I tell you the results, I'd just like 960 00:35:58,375 --> 00:36:00,583 to give you one more chance to... 961 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,666 You guys are good kids, like basically. 962 00:36:04,666 --> 00:36:05,500 I don't know if he called us. 963 00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:06,208 You're good soldiers. 964 00:36:07,791 --> 00:36:09,083 Everyone's spoken well of you. 965 00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:11,250 We're really appreciated here. 966 00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:12,416 It's not too late. 967 00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:15,791 We can just sort of pretend this never happened. 968 00:36:16,208 --> 00:36:18,875 We'll just put these away and you can just go on 969 00:36:18,875 --> 00:36:21,875 doing what you love doing and no one's 970 00:36:21,875 --> 00:36:22,916 going to worry about it. 971 00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:24,708 I just want to give you that offer. 972 00:36:24,708 --> 00:36:26,541 And we all just sort of looked at each other and 973 00:36:26,541 --> 00:36:28,166 Dean spoke for all of us and said, "No, 974 00:36:28,166 --> 00:36:31,416 sir, we feel very strongly regardless of the 975 00:36:31,416 --> 00:36:34,000 consequences that we need to proceed, but 976 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:34,416 thank you." 977 00:36:36,083 --> 00:36:38,083 So then he let us know, "Well, I'll let you know 978 00:36:38,083 --> 00:36:40,916 you've all been approved for conscientious 979 00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:43,833 objector status with honorable discharges," which 980 00:36:43,833 --> 00:36:47,541 we were just so elated and relieved. 981 00:36:48,458 --> 00:36:50,208 But then he let us know, he's like, "But wait," 982 00:36:50,458 --> 00:36:52,000 he's like, "There's something I need to tell 983 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:52,333 you." 984 00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:56,708 He sort of like whispering and he said, "I too 985 00:36:56,708 --> 00:36:59,000 now am leaving the army for the very same 986 00:36:59,000 --> 00:36:59,625 reasons." 987 00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,916 And we're like, "Wow." 988 00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:06,416 We just wanted to sit there and talk for hours, 989 00:37:06,416 --> 00:37:10,000 but the meeting ended and he had to 990 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:10,500 let us go. 991 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,791 He was probably, I wonder if he was nervous about 992 00:37:13,791 --> 00:37:17,166 letting us know he agreed with us and 993 00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:20,125 that he was doing the same thing we were doing. 994 00:37:20,708 --> 00:37:23,333 And yeah, it was one of those moments of just, 995 00:37:23,333 --> 00:37:25,750 "Wow, Lord, this is amazing." 996 00:37:26,166 --> 00:37:29,000 Okay, I have to ask, where did he end up? 997 00:37:29,375 --> 00:37:30,083 How does that story end up? 998 00:37:30,125 --> 00:37:32,541 We went to try and find him one day because we 999 00:37:32,541 --> 00:37:34,375 knew just what base he was living on, but 1000 00:37:34,375 --> 00:37:34,666 we couldn't find him. 1001 00:37:34,666 --> 00:37:35,333 Do you have a name? 1002 00:37:35,708 --> 00:37:37,083 I don't even remember. 1003 00:37:37,083 --> 00:37:38,166 I'm sure the name is in the file. 1004 00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:39,541 I could go back and look at the file. 1005 00:37:39,541 --> 00:37:41,041 He could try to pull your file, your military 1006 00:37:41,041 --> 00:37:42,375 file and track him down. 1007 00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:43,416 Amazing to find him. 1008 00:37:43,416 --> 00:37:44,375 It would be so amazing. 1009 00:37:45,458 --> 00:37:45,625 Wow. 1010 00:37:45,625 --> 00:37:45,833 Yeah. 1011 00:37:45,875 --> 00:37:47,750 Well, maybe he's listening to this and he can 1012 00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:49,166 send us an email or something. 1013 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,416 Oh, wouldn't that be amazing? I would love to know how that... 1014 00:37:51,958 --> 00:37:53,666 ...what changed his mind? 1015 00:37:54,708 --> 00:37:56,416 Where was his story? 1016 00:37:56,750 --> 00:37:56,833 What happened there? 1017 00:37:56,833 --> 00:37:58,958 I would love to know that story. 1018 00:37:59,708 --> 00:38:04,666 So that was just a gift from God to encourage us 1019 00:38:04,666 --> 00:38:06,916 that not only are you not weird, you're 1020 00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:07,458 not alone. 1021 00:38:10,583 --> 00:38:11,291 We don't know. 1022 00:38:11,291 --> 00:38:13,958 Did he already have something in his heart before 1023 00:38:13,958 --> 00:38:15,916 he spoke with us or did this happen 1024 00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:18,208 after hearing each four of our testimony? 1025 00:38:18,208 --> 00:38:19,666 He was the one who tried us in court. 1026 00:38:20,875 --> 00:38:22,375 He's the one that heard all the witnesses. 1027 00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:29,291 So yeah, I would love to know that story someday. 1028 00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:30,333 Lord willing maybe. 1029 00:38:30,958 --> 00:38:32,500 Man, that's really something though. 1030 00:38:32,958 --> 00:38:37,416 So okay, so you get your honorable discharge and 1031 00:38:37,416 --> 00:38:41,083 now that had to have felt unsettling because 1032 00:38:41,083 --> 00:38:43,875 it's like you have your life, this is how things 1033 00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:46,250 work, we're comfortable here and now 1034 00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:48,458 it's like, what do we do now? 1035 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,125 So talk to me about that process of trying to get 1036 00:38:51,125 --> 00:38:53,000 back on your feet, so to speak, trying 1037 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,416 to find, hey, where do we go to church now? 1038 00:38:55,708 --> 00:38:56,541 Where do we live now? 1039 00:38:57,916 --> 00:38:59,750 That whole process, I'm sure it's a long story 1040 00:38:59,750 --> 00:39:00,833 and I'm sure there's lots of pieces, 1041 00:39:01,083 --> 00:39:03,166 but I like to touch on that a little bit because 1042 00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:05,458 I know there are people that listen to this 1043 00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:07,791 podcast that are in that process right now. 1044 00:39:07,791 --> 00:39:10,083 Where they're like, hey, they've changed some 1045 00:39:10,083 --> 00:39:12,916 things of how they view scripture or they're 1046 00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:14,833 getting serious about their faith and they don't 1047 00:39:14,833 --> 00:39:16,291 want to be just passive about it. 1048 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,166 Where do I go to church now? 1049 00:39:18,875 --> 00:39:20,583 Where's my church community? 1050 00:39:21,166 --> 00:39:21,916 That's a hard one. 1051 00:39:22,416 --> 00:39:24,291 So what happened then? 1052 00:39:24,583 --> 00:39:25,458 What was your journey? 1053 00:39:26,041 --> 00:39:27,958 Probably one of the hardest parts of our journey 1054 00:39:27,958 --> 00:39:30,083 because we first went to our pastor 1055 00:39:31,333 --> 00:39:34,375 and asked him about these things and he seemed 1056 00:39:34,375 --> 00:39:37,083 extremely... I don't know how we came across 1057 00:39:37,083 --> 00:39:39,375 because in my heart, I didn't want to come, I was 1058 00:39:39,375 --> 00:39:41,583 really praying he was going to enlighten 1059 00:39:41,583 --> 00:39:44,875 us because I loved my job, I loved living in 1060 00:39:44,875 --> 00:39:47,041 Germany, I just didn't want to leave. 1061 00:39:48,125 --> 00:39:51,000 I respect so many people who are Christians, 1062 00:39:51,333 --> 00:39:53,625 they're believers, I know they're sincere, 1063 00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:55,250 but they don't see these things. 1064 00:39:55,625 --> 00:39:57,041 So surely we must be wrong. 1065 00:39:57,541 --> 00:39:59,375 I thought maybe he'd enlighten the path a little 1066 00:39:59,375 --> 00:40:01,708 better so we could see clearly how 1067 00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:02,750 it all works together. 1068 00:40:04,166 --> 00:40:07,250 But he was more defensive in saying, you're not 1069 00:40:07,250 --> 00:40:08,750 going to persuade me, you're not going 1070 00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:09,625 to change my mind. 1071 00:40:09,625 --> 00:40:12,083 And then he ended by saying, perhaps you'd be more 1072 00:40:12,083 --> 00:40:13,416 comfortable worshiping elsewhere. 1073 00:40:13,958 --> 00:40:16,125 So that felt so hard. 1074 00:40:16,125 --> 00:40:17,958 That was really, really painful. 1075 00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:23,416 But we ended up, we had had a local bookstore 1076 00:40:23,416 --> 00:40:25,708 that had gone out of business and that man 1077 00:40:25,708 --> 00:40:29,916 had bought lots of radical books, like by lots of 1078 00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:32,791 Mennonites, he had Foxe's Book of Martyrs, 1079 00:40:32,875 --> 00:40:36,041 Martyrs Mirror, he had lots of Anabaptist books 1080 00:40:36,041 --> 00:40:40,625 and lots of people like Rich, who was 1081 00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,416 it, the Rich Christians in the Age of Hunger? 1082 00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:43,708 What's his name? 1083 00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:44,125 I forget. 1084 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:45,208 I don't know. 1085 00:40:45,375 --> 00:40:46,083 That's before my time. 1086 00:40:46,750 --> 00:40:49,625 All these amazing books that make you think about your 1087 00:40:49,625 --> 00:40:52,833 real life application and Jesus's teachings 1088 00:40:52,833 --> 00:40:55,666 and how are we really lining up with those? 1089 00:40:55,666 --> 00:40:57,083 And they were just good food 1090 00:40:57,083 --> 00:40:58,666 for thought, very challenging. 1091 00:40:59,708 --> 00:41:05,250 And so, okay, he sold his whole inventory to the 1092 00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:06,375 local Christian bookstore. 1093 00:41:07,208 --> 00:41:09,000 And we went in and feasted. 1094 00:41:09,375 --> 00:41:11,166 We bought so many books. 1095 00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:13,875 And then we start going to the 1096 00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:15,875 owner and said, we are so excited. 1097 00:41:16,041 --> 00:41:16,916 And he was like, wait a minute, 1098 00:41:17,291 --> 00:41:18,625 I don't agree with any of that. 1099 00:41:19,166 --> 00:41:21,916 And he shoved a video in our hands about Romans 1100 00:41:21,916 --> 00:41:24,375 13 and hoping we would understand the way 1101 00:41:24,416 --> 00:41:24,791 better. 1102 00:41:24,791 --> 00:41:28,291 But Romans 13, when I see it now in the entire 1103 00:41:28,291 --> 00:41:31,291 kingdom understanding, it does make perfect 1104 00:41:31,416 --> 00:41:33,916 sense, but I still come out on the same place. 1105 00:41:34,208 --> 00:41:35,916 It's no longer this, oh, how does 1106 00:41:35,916 --> 00:41:38,000 that fit with, it makes perfect sense. 1107 00:41:38,833 --> 00:41:41,458 Or what.. our calling in is in a different kingdom. 1108 00:41:41,708 --> 00:41:43,208 But you definitely had, it sounds like you 1109 00:41:43,208 --> 00:41:45,458 definitely had people along this process that 1110 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:46,791 were trying to dissuade you. 1111 00:41:46,791 --> 00:41:46,958 Oh, yes. 1112 00:41:46,958 --> 00:41:48,666 It was like, hey, you're reading that wrong. 1113 00:41:48,833 --> 00:41:50,083 You're going off the tracks. 1114 00:41:50,750 --> 00:41:53,833 Yeah. And definitely our friends and family, yes, they 1115 00:41:53,833 --> 00:41:55,000 were concerned about us. 1116 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,000 They cared about us. 1117 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,625 They thought we were going off the deep end. 1118 00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:58,375 Yeah, of course. 1119 00:41:58,375 --> 00:42:01,000 And it's kind of like, just don't rock the boat. 1120 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,041 Yeah, just be normal. 1121 00:42:02,041 --> 00:42:03,625 That's kind of where I was like, well, I mean, 1122 00:42:03,625 --> 00:42:05,041 you could just stay in it a little longer, 1123 00:42:05,041 --> 00:42:06,041 you know, and finish down your 1124 00:42:06,041 --> 00:42:07,333 enlistment and just let it go. 1125 00:42:07,666 --> 00:42:10,916 But I'm glad you explained that 1126 00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:12,833 because I'm sure a lot of people will say 1127 00:42:12,833 --> 00:42:14,500 that and, or, you know, 1128 00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:15,500 leave a comment or whatever. 1129 00:42:15,916 --> 00:42:18,958 But there's a piece here where I think it is 1130 00:42:18,958 --> 00:42:21,583 important if, you know, you're reading 1131 00:42:21,583 --> 00:42:24,666 scripture say, and you truly believe 1132 00:42:24,666 --> 00:42:27,000 this is what Christ wants you to do. 1133 00:42:28,375 --> 00:42:29,833 It seems like what the case 1134 00:42:29,833 --> 00:42:31,958 you're making is, you need to do it. 1135 00:42:31,958 --> 00:42:33,166 Even if people are like, that's 1136 00:42:33,166 --> 00:42:34,666 crazy, you really shouldn't do that. 1137 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:35,208 Yeah. 1138 00:42:35,541 --> 00:42:36,416 And there were moments you 1139 00:42:36,416 --> 00:42:37,750 wondered if we were crazy. 1140 00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:38,958 And we did wonder if we should, 1141 00:42:38,958 --> 00:42:40,875 you know, take a few steps back. 1142 00:42:41,291 --> 00:42:42,166 But what was amazing... 1143 00:42:42,416 --> 00:42:44,666 God providing all these books, we're reading the 1144 00:42:44,666 --> 00:42:46,666 early church and we're reading. 1145 00:42:46,666 --> 00:42:48,500 I remember finding David Bercot's book. 1146 00:42:48,833 --> 00:42:49,625 Will the Real Heretics. 1147 00:42:50,083 --> 00:42:50,291 Yes. 1148 00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:52,250 I remember the moment I picked it up, 1149 00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:53,875 Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up. 1150 00:42:53,875 --> 00:42:54,916 I turn over, I read the back. 1151 00:42:55,583 --> 00:42:56,416 I called Dean over. 1152 00:42:56,416 --> 00:42:57,458 I'm like, come here. 1153 00:42:57,458 --> 00:42:58,416 You've got to hear this. 1154 00:42:58,416 --> 00:42:58,833 You're kidding. 1155 00:42:59,083 --> 00:43:01,208 I remember chapters like, Is Right and Wrong a 1156 00:43:01,208 --> 00:43:03,208 Matter of Culture? or Was There a Faith Once 1157 00:43:03,208 --> 00:43:05,708 For All Delivered, basically is what... 1158 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,125 and then hearing about the early church who 1159 00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:10,250 would have walked and talked with the apostles. 1160 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,875 And they would have taken the words of Christ 1161 00:43:12,875 --> 00:43:15,916 like a child, like if he says, love your enemies, 1162 00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:17,083 you should love your enemies. 1163 00:43:17,333 --> 00:43:21,125 If he says that you should not divorce or even 1164 00:43:21,125 --> 00:43:22,958 worse divorce and remarry, then we should 1165 00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:24,916 try everything not to. 1166 00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:27,708 And you know, don't sue your brother and even go 1167 00:43:27,708 --> 00:43:30,083 the extra mile and don't just love your 1168 00:43:30,083 --> 00:43:31,333 brother but love your enemy. 1169 00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:34,375 You know that there's power in loving your enemy 1170 00:43:34,375 --> 00:43:36,208 so you'd be children of your 1171 00:43:36,375 --> 00:43:37,000 father in heaven. 1172 00:43:37,875 --> 00:43:41,708 And so we found our greatest, our greatest 1173 00:43:41,708 --> 00:43:44,166 fellowship was with people who had been dead 1174 00:43:44,166 --> 00:43:47,000 for hundreds of years, except 1175 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,500 finding David Bercot's book. 1176 00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:50,375 It was like, and then some of these modern 1177 00:43:50,375 --> 00:43:52,750 Anabaptist writers from all different 1178 00:43:52,791 --> 00:43:54,625 stripes from very liberal to very conservative. 1179 00:43:55,333 --> 00:43:58,166 I'm so confused because this is way before the 1180 00:43:58,166 --> 00:44:00,541 days of like ebooks and audiobooks and 1181 00:44:00,541 --> 00:44:00,875 stuff. 1182 00:44:00,875 --> 00:44:04,416 So like physically that David Bercot's book had 1183 00:44:04,416 --> 00:44:05,416 to get over there somehow. 1184 00:44:05,708 --> 00:44:07,375 And then you, it's the randomness of... 1185 00:44:07,625 --> 00:44:08,583 Paul Pavao, that was his name. 1186 00:44:08,833 --> 00:44:09,208 Oh my. 1187 00:44:09,208 --> 00:44:10,125 He was the one, he had 1188 00:44:10,125 --> 00:44:11,375 gone to our Baptist church. 1189 00:44:11,375 --> 00:44:12,458 He had been in the Air Force. 1190 00:44:13,583 --> 00:44:16,166 And his bookstore had been in a basement. 1191 00:44:16,166 --> 00:44:17,250 I guess it didn't do too well. 1192 00:44:18,041 --> 00:44:18,666 I don't know. 1193 00:44:18,666 --> 00:44:21,125 When he left, he sold everything to the local, 1194 00:44:21,125 --> 00:44:23,708 all of his inventory went to that local Christian 1195 00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:24,125 bookstore. 1196 00:44:24,125 --> 00:44:26,041 But I felt like it was so providential, like the 1197 00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:27,791 Lord feeding us manna in the wilderness. 1198 00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:28,916 That's wild. 1199 00:44:29,291 --> 00:44:29,541 Such a blessing. 1200 00:44:30,125 --> 00:44:30,416 Yeah. 1201 00:44:30,416 --> 00:44:32,625 Because like we, of course, interviewed David a 1202 00:44:32,625 --> 00:44:33,791 number of times, you know, on this. 1203 00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:37,375 Every time I'm with him, I continue to be amazed 1204 00:44:37,375 --> 00:44:40,125 how far that book went around the world. 1205 00:44:40,416 --> 00:44:44,541 And like how it does feel, you all were on 1206 00:44:44,541 --> 00:44:47,166 an interesting journey that was, I'm 1207 00:44:47,166 --> 00:44:50,541 sure new, fresh, overwhelming, confusing, you 1208 00:44:50,541 --> 00:44:53,541 know, and trying to find your way through. 1209 00:44:53,541 --> 00:44:54,583 And collecting some resources 1210 00:44:54,583 --> 00:44:55,916 along the way that really helped you. 1211 00:44:56,125 --> 00:44:57,541 I think that's an important piece too. 1212 00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:59,250 Because it'd be hard to probably 1213 00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,041 just stick with this on your own. 1214 00:45:01,041 --> 00:45:02,333 It would have. 1215 00:45:02,375 --> 00:45:05,916 That was definitely a major component. 1216 00:45:07,208 --> 00:45:09,083 And we just thought, okay, as soon as we get out, 1217 00:45:09,083 --> 00:45:10,208 we've got to meet David Bercot. 1218 00:45:10,458 --> 00:45:11,166 We got to go find him. 1219 00:45:11,166 --> 00:45:12,291 That's what we called him. 1220 00:45:12,291 --> 00:45:13,166 Then when we met him, we found 1221 00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:15,250 out why he prefers to pronounce it 1222 00:45:15,250 --> 00:45:15,458 (Bur-soh). 1223 00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:17,916 But yeah, it was just like, 1224 00:45:17,916 --> 00:45:19,375 God, we were really scared. 1225 00:45:19,583 --> 00:45:21,541 I remember we were very ignorant too. 1226 00:45:21,541 --> 00:45:22,375 We did not know. 1227 00:45:23,458 --> 00:45:24,625 So like we're reading our Bibles 1228 00:45:24,625 --> 00:45:26,250 and it wasn't just non-resistance. 1229 00:45:26,458 --> 00:45:27,916 I'm finding where it says that 1230 00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:29,333 a woman should cover her head. 1231 00:45:30,083 --> 00:45:32,625 I don't understand everything, but it seems like 1232 00:45:32,625 --> 00:45:34,583 even at that time, maybe we had found 1233 00:45:34,583 --> 00:45:36,333 a book called Demons in the Church. 1234 00:45:36,333 --> 00:45:38,750 They've now changed it to Sunset of the Western 1235 00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:40,250 Church or something like that. 1236 00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:43,833 And that book addressed the head covering and as 1237 00:45:43,833 --> 00:45:46,000 a protection from the spiritual, like 1238 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,833 the wicked hosts in high places. 1239 00:45:48,416 --> 00:45:49,208 That's the way I remember it. 1240 00:45:49,208 --> 00:45:50,000 It's been many years. 1241 00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:53,750 But initially, I just saw that verse and I was 1242 00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:56,041 like, Lord, I told you I want to do everything 1243 00:45:56,041 --> 00:45:56,583 I see. 1244 00:45:57,291 --> 00:46:00,875 So I don't remember whether I'd seen anything 1245 00:46:00,875 --> 00:46:02,375 else in the world about that. 1246 00:46:02,750 --> 00:46:03,958 I didn't know about Amish. 1247 00:46:03,958 --> 00:46:05,125 I mean, I must have known about 1248 00:46:05,125 --> 00:46:08,416 them, but I was particularly ignorant. 1249 00:46:08,708 --> 00:46:10,583 My husband may not have been quite so ignorant, 1250 00:46:10,583 --> 00:46:13,333 but really knowing about Amish and Mennonites 1251 00:46:13,333 --> 00:46:16,041 and their testimony or their witness of faith or 1252 00:46:16,041 --> 00:46:18,125 didn't really know anything in the world 1253 00:46:18,125 --> 00:46:18,541 like that. 1254 00:46:18,708 --> 00:46:22,000 So I read the Bible and so before we pray, I go 1255 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,625 run to the kitchen and get, I always 1256 00:46:23,625 --> 00:46:24,750 say my ducky dish towel. 1257 00:46:24,875 --> 00:46:26,958 Back then in the 80s, we had duckies and ribbons, 1258 00:46:27,416 --> 00:46:29,666 little checkers, so tacky. 1259 00:46:30,166 --> 00:46:32,583 And I would put that on my head and I'd tease. 1260 00:46:32,916 --> 00:46:35,333 I look back and sometimes I'd be in our, like we 1261 00:46:35,333 --> 00:46:38,208 found a small group to worship with and 1262 00:46:38,875 --> 00:46:41,375 I'd have my shorts on and go get my dish towel. 1263 00:46:41,375 --> 00:46:43,541 Didn't understand like modesty and what that 1264 00:46:43,541 --> 00:46:45,333 looked like or, you know, 1265 00:46:45,708 --> 00:46:46,666 application, a practical 1266 00:46:46,666 --> 00:46:50,625 application or even differences in God's desire 1267 00:46:50,625 --> 00:46:52,916 for difference in women and women dress. 1268 00:46:53,208 --> 00:46:55,583 And you know, like that's something that's in our 1269 00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:57,208 Bible, but I know it's a sensitive 1270 00:46:57,208 --> 00:46:59,833 topic, especially in today's world. 1271 00:46:59,833 --> 00:47:02,333 And it's not something I would say, okay, people 1272 00:47:02,333 --> 00:47:03,541 are going to hell if they don't get 1273 00:47:03,541 --> 00:47:05,875 this, but there is something to be studied and 1274 00:47:05,875 --> 00:47:08,250 seek to understand, What's God's heart? 1275 00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:09,958 If a man dresses like a 1276 00:47:09,958 --> 00:47:11,125 woman, it's an abomination. 1277 00:47:11,708 --> 00:47:13,375 Or a woman dresses like a man. 1278 00:47:13,708 --> 00:47:16,166 It's not that we want to condemn people, but we 1279 00:47:16,166 --> 00:47:17,583 want to know what is God's heart. 1280 00:47:17,583 --> 00:47:21,000 So that was just the head covering thing was one 1281 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,750 of many things that we're like, okay, 1282 00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:24,458 we should do this. 1283 00:47:24,708 --> 00:47:27,208 But we were like, we'll never find anyone in the 1284 00:47:27,208 --> 00:47:29,791 world who agrees with these things. 1285 00:47:30,166 --> 00:47:32,541 But we went to meet David Bercot, or Dean did. 1286 00:47:32,833 --> 00:47:35,833 I was working when we got out of the army and he 1287 00:47:35,833 --> 00:47:37,625 went and met him and David was like, 1288 00:47:38,333 --> 00:47:40,000 you know, we're starting a church and guess who 1289 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,250 he's starting a church with? 1290 00:47:41,541 --> 00:47:43,250 Paul Pavao, the man who sold 1291 00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:44,708 out the Christian bookstores. 1292 00:47:44,958 --> 00:47:47,416 So Paul moved in, he had gotten out into 1293 00:47:47,416 --> 00:47:50,375 California, which I believe was his home state. 1294 00:47:51,250 --> 00:47:54,375 He and his wife, Lorie, they had no children yet. 1295 00:47:54,375 --> 00:47:56,583 They moved to Texas and we all converged on the 1296 00:47:56,583 --> 00:47:59,541 scene with a few others and started Tyler 1297 00:47:59,541 --> 00:48:00,833 Early Christian Fellowship. 1298 00:48:03,208 --> 00:48:03,416 Wow. 1299 00:48:03,833 --> 00:48:06,250 So yeah, there's, so you ended up back in Texas 1300 00:48:06,250 --> 00:48:08,083 then after, after Germany, you get out 1301 00:48:08,083 --> 00:48:08,625 of the army. 1302 00:48:08,625 --> 00:48:10,583 When you get of the army, you're technically sent 1303 00:48:10,583 --> 00:48:12,458 back to the army to your home 1304 00:48:12,458 --> 00:48:12,833 state. 1305 00:48:13,416 --> 00:48:15,666 You always have a home state where you join. 1306 00:48:16,083 --> 00:48:17,583 And even though I joined from Germany, my home 1307 00:48:17,583 --> 00:48:19,916 state was still considered Texas. 1308 00:48:21,458 --> 00:48:22,333 So we were both sent back there. 1309 00:48:22,708 --> 00:48:24,083 That makes more sense because I kind of wondered 1310 00:48:24,083 --> 00:48:25,916 like, how did you end up in Texas then? 1311 00:48:26,375 --> 00:48:28,875 Um, so you end up in Texas and that's, and that's 1312 00:48:28,875 --> 00:48:31,416 probably, if I'm getting this right, 1313 00:48:32,625 --> 00:48:37,333 part of a long, probably a slow circuitous, maybe 1314 00:48:37,333 --> 00:48:39,291 a bit confusing sometimes, process of 1315 00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:42,916 just learning and learning and learning and, 1316 00:48:42,916 --> 00:48:47,041 trying to parse out how do we do 1317 00:48:47,041 --> 00:48:48,541 this thing called Christianity? 1318 00:48:49,041 --> 00:48:50,916 You know, how are we supposed to live? 1319 00:48:51,375 --> 00:48:52,958 Um, yeah. 1320 00:48:52,958 --> 00:48:54,125 Is there more you want to say on that? 1321 00:48:54,125 --> 00:48:56,458 Like I think maybe just to add a bit more to 1322 00:48:56,458 --> 00:48:59,875 that, I think the tendency is easy to have 1323 00:48:59,875 --> 00:49:02,166 when someone comes to the faith or whatever 1324 00:49:02,166 --> 00:49:03,333 that waboom, they're just 1325 00:49:03,333 --> 00:49:04,125 going to get everything. 1326 00:49:05,083 --> 00:49:07,625 And it seems like the reality is it's years often 1327 00:49:07,625 --> 00:49:10,208 of processing through what does Christ 1328 00:49:10,208 --> 00:49:11,208 want me to do? 1329 00:49:11,208 --> 00:49:11,875 How should I live? 1330 00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:13,916 You know, how does this affect my 1331 00:49:13,916 --> 00:49:15,291 day to day and all of those things? 1332 00:49:15,541 --> 00:49:15,750 Yeah. 1333 00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:16,458 Speak on that issue. 1334 00:49:16,833 --> 00:49:20,583 Still in that process, I'm still trying to learn 1335 00:49:20,583 --> 00:49:22,416 how to say it better or trying to learn 1336 00:49:23,041 --> 00:49:23,875 what the right way is. 1337 00:49:24,083 --> 00:49:27,041 What are the non-negotiables and how can I be 1338 00:49:27,041 --> 00:49:30,291 gracious to everyone but also have salt 1339 00:49:30,291 --> 00:49:30,916 within myself. 1340 00:49:31,291 --> 00:49:33,750 But at the end of the day, like Jesus said, peace 1341 00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:36,458 with one another and I'm a people pleaser 1342 00:49:36,458 --> 00:49:39,375 by nature and I like to, you know, 1343 00:49:39,375 --> 00:49:41,666 gather people together and be on a team. 1344 00:49:41,958 --> 00:49:44,666 But yeah, just trying to find my way through of 1345 00:49:44,666 --> 00:49:46,250 like, when does Jesus want me to stand 1346 00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:47,000 up for something? 1347 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,208 And when does he want me to just stand firm, but 1348 00:49:50,208 --> 00:49:53,166 still be very loving and gracious and 1349 00:49:53,166 --> 00:49:56,416 welcoming and you know, inviting the dialogue, 1350 00:49:56,708 --> 00:49:58,125 you know, a healthy dialogue, hopefully. 1351 00:49:58,708 --> 00:50:00,416 But that's always part of the challenge. 1352 00:50:01,208 --> 00:50:01,541 But okay. 1353 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:02,875 That's really good. 1354 00:50:02,875 --> 00:50:04,958 Like, do you want to speak a bit as well... 1355 00:50:04,958 --> 00:50:05,875 We've kind of been hitting 1356 00:50:05,875 --> 00:50:07,125 this as we've been going along. 1357 00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:07,333 Absolutely. 1358 00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,708 ...but why you believe it is important to integrate 1359 00:50:10,708 --> 00:50:11,791 into a church community? 1360 00:50:11,791 --> 00:50:11,958 Yeah. 1361 00:50:12,875 --> 00:50:13,041 Yeah. 1362 00:50:13,041 --> 00:50:13,708 Talk to me about that. 1363 00:50:13,916 --> 00:50:16,125 Well, I am just so grateful. 1364 00:50:16,375 --> 00:50:18,041 The Lord didn't just sort of, sort 1365 00:50:18,041 --> 00:50:20,208 of abandon us there by ourselves 1366 00:50:20,458 --> 00:50:23,000 in the beginning of that. I always tell David and 1367 00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,208 Deborah, I tremble when I think what could 1368 00:50:26,250 --> 00:50:29,833 have become of us if we didn't have David and 1369 00:50:29,833 --> 00:50:32,458 Deborah there in particular, like God 1370 00:50:32,458 --> 00:50:33,750 used all the many members 1371 00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,958 of the body that he sent. 1372 00:50:34,958 --> 00:50:36,541 We had a lot of people coming through. 1373 00:50:37,041 --> 00:50:39,166 We had some interesting stories to tell of our 1374 00:50:39,166 --> 00:50:42,041 years, but we had hard times and some 1375 00:50:42,041 --> 00:50:42,875 wonderful times. 1376 00:50:43,333 --> 00:50:45,375 But I will say during those times, God continued 1377 00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:49,625 to majorly convict and shape and mold us and 1378 00:50:49,625 --> 00:50:51,125 prepare us for future things. 1379 00:50:51,458 --> 00:50:54,208 And I'm so grateful, like David and Deborah 1380 00:50:54,208 --> 00:50:55,916 brought us into their home. 1381 00:50:56,250 --> 00:50:58,416 All of us, like we were a motley crew, our whole 1382 00:50:58,416 --> 00:51:00,541 church, and we met in his house. 1383 00:51:01,166 --> 00:51:03,791 And they just welcomed us into their home. 1384 00:51:03,791 --> 00:51:04,500 They fed us. 1385 00:51:04,833 --> 00:51:06,708 They bore along with us. 1386 00:51:07,083 --> 00:51:08,250 And they answered questions. 1387 00:51:09,583 --> 00:51:13,125 We had wonderful Easter services where we'd spend 1388 00:51:13,125 --> 00:51:14,708 the night together as a church and we'd 1389 00:51:14,708 --> 00:51:17,000 have prayer partner times where we'd go and pray. 1390 00:51:17,916 --> 00:51:19,875 And we'd maybe there'd be baptisms 1391 00:51:19,875 --> 00:51:21,500 in the morning and things like that. 1392 00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:23,333 It was very, very special years. 1393 00:51:23,708 --> 00:51:25,791 And I'm so grateful. 1394 00:51:25,791 --> 00:51:28,291 And he's continued to offer 1395 00:51:28,291 --> 00:51:31,083 that discipleship and counsel. 1396 00:51:31,333 --> 00:51:32,333 And I'm so grateful. 1397 00:51:32,333 --> 00:51:35,083 And then no matter where God has had us, then 1398 00:51:35,083 --> 00:51:37,291 God's brought other men and women along who've 1399 00:51:37,291 --> 00:51:39,291 been able to encourage us in the faith and help 1400 00:51:39,291 --> 00:51:42,041 us stand strong when we're being tested 1401 00:51:42,333 --> 00:51:44,916 or questioning things. 1402 00:51:45,416 --> 00:51:46,583 It's just been such a gift. 1403 00:51:47,833 --> 00:51:50,500 And I will say, like there is definitely some 1404 00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:51,833 kind of a protection there. 1405 00:51:52,708 --> 00:51:54,583 Seems like spiritually, I know the Bible talks 1406 00:51:54,583 --> 00:51:58,541 about those, like the principalities of wicked, 1407 00:51:58,916 --> 00:51:59,500 you know, they're like, 1408 00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:01,708 principalities govern things, you know? 1409 00:52:01,708 --> 00:52:03,916 So like, I think about how that seems like 1410 00:52:03,916 --> 00:52:06,333 there's some liberty given to them to corrupt 1411 00:52:06,416 --> 00:52:09,000 and cause trouble in the world. 1412 00:52:09,208 --> 00:52:10,375 But yet they're also 1413 00:52:10,375 --> 00:52:12,291 angelic principalities, it seems. 1414 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,833 I think about that and I think, well, there does 1415 00:52:16,833 --> 00:52:18,750 seem to be some sort of a protection 1416 00:52:18,916 --> 00:52:23,166 in daily church life and, you know, sort of being 1417 00:52:23,166 --> 00:52:26,041 a witness of Christ and there's power 1418 00:52:26,041 --> 00:52:26,666 in that. 1419 00:52:26,666 --> 00:52:30,166 I think it's, yeah, I feel like it's protected us 1420 00:52:30,166 --> 00:52:33,916 both spiritually and even physically. 1421 00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:36,291 I feel like it's kept us on the path. 1422 00:52:36,291 --> 00:52:38,000 It's helped, or it's helped 1423 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,333 us to try to stay on the path. 1424 00:52:39,333 --> 00:52:40,125 I can't say, "Oh, I've 1425 00:52:40,125 --> 00:52:41,583 perfectly been on the path. 1426 00:52:41,583 --> 00:52:42,166 Thank goodness. 1427 00:52:42,916 --> 00:52:44,416 Oh my, look at me." 1428 00:52:44,708 --> 00:52:49,125 But I'm so grateful for both 1429 00:52:49,125 --> 00:52:50,458 the men and women who've gone before 1430 00:52:50,458 --> 00:52:52,416 us in history that we can read their stories, we 1431 00:52:52,416 --> 00:52:54,875 can see testimonies like Corrie Ten Boom 1432 00:52:54,875 --> 00:52:57,750 of people just being willing to give their lives, 1433 00:52:57,750 --> 00:53:00,666 for the Lord and no matter 1434 00:53:00,666 --> 00:53:01,166 the cost. 1435 00:53:01,541 --> 00:53:04,125 And then modern day people just, even if it's the 1436 00:53:04,125 --> 00:53:06,208 people serving us the water on Sunday 1437 00:53:06,291 --> 00:53:10,041 or, providing the baby meals when 1438 00:53:10,041 --> 00:53:12,791 you've had a baby or that help you need it 1439 00:53:12,791 --> 00:53:15,958 as a mommy and just all those little 1440 00:53:15,958 --> 00:53:18,875 hidden workers who make up the body of Christ. 1441 00:53:18,875 --> 00:53:19,750 I'm very grateful. 1442 00:53:20,083 --> 00:53:21,416 I feel we all need that. 1443 00:53:21,416 --> 00:53:23,291 We weren't meant to be alone. 1444 00:53:23,541 --> 00:53:27,041 And Jesus needed us to continue to live 1445 00:53:27,041 --> 00:53:28,750 that example that he lived, 1446 00:53:29,541 --> 00:53:31,500 coming together, fellowshiping together, being 1447 00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:34,291 witnesses of him praising him in 1448 00:53:34,333 --> 00:53:38,166 song and reading the word, teaching the word and 1449 00:53:38,166 --> 00:53:40,791 being discipled and making disciples, 1450 00:53:41,291 --> 00:53:44,750 evangelizing-- all of those good things. 1451 00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:46,625 Share whatever you like. 1452 00:53:46,625 --> 00:53:48,375 You don't have to share much, but I know there's 1453 00:53:48,375 --> 00:53:50,083 lots of people that listen to this podcast 1454 00:53:50,083 --> 00:53:51,375 and are like, "Oh, you know, I'd 1455 00:53:51,375 --> 00:53:52,458 like to kind of check this out." 1456 00:53:52,458 --> 00:53:53,500 Or, "Oh, I'm intrigued by 1457 00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:54,541 these ways of believing." 1458 00:53:55,041 --> 00:53:57,541 But then when they actually, you know, start 1459 00:53:57,541 --> 00:53:59,083 getting into it, it's like, "Whoa, that's 1460 00:53:59,166 --> 00:53:59,416 confusing. 1461 00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:00,750 I don't understand that." 1462 00:54:02,166 --> 00:54:04,708 Maybe tell us a bit about that and also why you 1463 00:54:04,708 --> 00:54:07,083 continued on with the process to see it 1464 00:54:07,166 --> 00:54:07,458 through. 1465 00:54:07,458 --> 00:54:09,500 The first thing that comes to my mind is that 1466 00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:12,416 Jesus promises, "If we seek, we will find. 1467 00:54:12,416 --> 00:54:14,041 If we're hungry and thirsty for 1468 00:54:14,041 --> 00:54:15,625 righteousness, we will be satisfied." 1469 00:54:16,125 --> 00:54:18,375 Deep in my heart, I had a hunger and a thirst, 1470 00:54:18,375 --> 00:54:21,333 and that's what helped me when I felt humiliated. 1471 00:54:21,833 --> 00:54:23,375 I felt like maybe we were crazy. 1472 00:54:24,208 --> 00:54:27,166 I felt like maybe we were getting off, but at the 1473 00:54:27,166 --> 00:54:28,916 end of the day, I wanted what was right. 1474 00:54:28,958 --> 00:54:31,375 And if you find yourself in that place today, 1475 00:54:32,291 --> 00:54:34,541 Jesus will also satisfy 1476 00:54:34,541 --> 00:54:35,833 that thirst for righteousness. 1477 00:54:36,666 --> 00:54:38,041 He'll satisfy the questions. 1478 00:54:38,416 --> 00:54:41,000 And so in that though, I have funny stories of 1479 00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,041 like my first visits to the Bercot's and 1480 00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:45,958 my wardrobe didn't feel very godly when I... 1481 00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:47,916 I guess they are already further along in their 1482 00:54:47,916 --> 00:54:52,000 path of.... they had longer 1483 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,916 skirts and I just remember feeling very like my 1484 00:54:55,916 --> 00:54:57,916 knees were showing and I'd pull my skirt 1485 00:54:57,958 --> 00:54:58,958 down as far as I could. 1486 00:54:58,958 --> 00:55:00,750 And they were so loving and gracious. 1487 00:55:01,625 --> 00:55:03,208 It was like they didn't notice anything 1488 00:55:03,208 --> 00:55:04,375 whatsoever, but I felt 1489 00:55:04,375 --> 00:55:06,708 like, okay, that was the first 1490 00:55:07,083 --> 00:55:09,500 family in real life I'd ever seen that was trying 1491 00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:10,666 to be different than the world. 1492 00:55:11,416 --> 00:55:12,458 They were willing to be different 1493 00:55:12,458 --> 00:55:13,791 than everyone else to try and... 1494 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,625 The Bible says women ought to be modest. 1495 00:55:16,875 --> 00:55:17,958 They had to dress like women. 1496 00:55:18,208 --> 00:55:20,125 And what does that look like in today's age 1497 00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:23,416 where, yes, you could have modest pants, but 1498 00:55:23,583 --> 00:55:24,708 is that the best way? 1499 00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:27,250 I mean, in many ways, it could be an okay thing. 1500 00:55:27,916 --> 00:55:29,416 I don't want to say it's, you 1501 00:55:29,416 --> 00:55:30,375 know, you're going to go to hell... 1502 00:55:30,375 --> 00:55:32,958 My mom wears pants and she's a very godly woman. 1503 00:55:33,708 --> 00:55:36,000 But I appreciate when we try... 1504 00:55:36,541 --> 00:55:39,166 I always say we get the privilege to the very 1505 00:55:39,166 --> 00:55:41,500 best of our ability, help each other, try 1506 00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:44,000 to do what did Jesus want his... 1507 00:55:44,250 --> 00:55:47,541 When we pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done 1508 00:55:47,541 --> 00:55:49,000 on earth as it is in heaven." 1509 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,333 I think of that throne room. 1510 00:55:50,708 --> 00:55:51,291 They're modest. 1511 00:55:51,666 --> 00:55:54,583 They're shielding their faces and they're crying, 1512 00:55:54,583 --> 00:55:55,916 "Holy, holy, holy," and I know I'm 1513 00:55:55,958 --> 00:55:57,208 so far from that. 1514 00:55:58,125 --> 00:56:00,583 But I want to continue to have that journey the 1515 00:56:00,583 --> 00:56:02,416 rest of my life to say, "How do I bring 1516 00:56:02,833 --> 00:56:03,791 that kingdom here?" 1517 00:56:04,583 --> 00:56:06,458 It's probably definitely just a simple 1518 00:56:06,458 --> 00:56:07,416 application and not 1519 00:56:07,416 --> 00:56:08,916 something very complicated because 1520 00:56:08,916 --> 00:56:10,958 Jesus came lowly and surprising 1521 00:56:10,958 --> 00:56:12,916 everyone, not having fancy clothes. 1522 00:56:12,916 --> 00:56:14,500 He wasn't dressed like a king and 1523 00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:16,916 he rode a baby donkey into town. 1524 00:56:17,333 --> 00:56:18,541 And you know, that was... 1525 00:56:19,041 --> 00:56:21,000 He was trying to teach us something in that. 1526 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,208 So I love that. 1527 00:56:22,208 --> 00:56:24,000 I love that about my Lord. 1528 00:56:24,958 --> 00:56:25,916 I have many stories. 1529 00:56:26,291 --> 00:56:27,458 I basically felt... 1530 00:56:27,791 --> 00:56:28,833 I felt the need to... 1531 00:56:29,416 --> 00:56:30,666 I got rid of my makeup. 1532 00:56:31,041 --> 00:56:33,166 I got rid of all my jewelry. 1533 00:56:33,875 --> 00:56:36,958 I had gotten rid of my wedding ring when I was in 1534 00:56:36,958 --> 00:56:38,958 Germany because... I didn't get rid of it. 1535 00:56:38,958 --> 00:56:39,000 1536 00:56:39,333 --> 00:56:42,458 I put it away, stopped wearing it because I 1537 00:56:42,458 --> 00:56:44,041 wanted to be a missionary. 1538 00:56:44,416 --> 00:56:48,833 I imagined myself going to Africa and I saw an 1539 00:56:48,833 --> 00:56:50,000 inconsistency telling 1540 00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,500 someone who was impoverished, 1541 00:56:52,708 --> 00:56:54,333 go in peace, be warmed and be filled. 1542 00:56:54,333 --> 00:56:56,708 When I felt like I had this big diamond, he had 1543 00:56:56,708 --> 00:56:59,208 given me a beautiful one carat oval when 1544 00:56:59,208 --> 00:57:01,291 we were married and it seemed inconsistent. 1545 00:57:01,666 --> 00:57:03,583 So without knowing anyone or anything, I just 1546 00:57:03,583 --> 00:57:05,750 stopped wearing that. I still worth the skinny 1547 00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:07,375 little wedding band that went with it. 1548 00:57:08,083 --> 00:57:08,875 And it wasn't until my 1549 00:57:08,875 --> 00:57:10,750 Charity years that we took that off. 1550 00:57:10,750 --> 00:57:13,541 We had not worried about that for our 10 years 1551 00:57:13,541 --> 00:57:15,833 with David and Deborah and I had no problem 1552 00:57:15,916 --> 00:57:16,416 with that. 1553 00:57:17,041 --> 00:57:20,166 But yes, there was something about that. 1554 00:57:20,708 --> 00:57:21,500 Just having to get rid of 1555 00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:22,750 everything, feeling like... 1556 00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:26,458 We were both in college when we got out of the 1557 00:57:26,458 --> 00:57:30,208 army and I remember going to school with 1558 00:57:30,208 --> 00:57:31,708 the only dress I had that 1559 00:57:31,708 --> 00:57:33,083 Heather Bercot let me borrow. 1560 00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:34,375 It was the only thing I felt was modest. 1561 00:57:35,041 --> 00:57:37,375 I remember these two guys whispering in the 1562 00:57:37,375 --> 00:57:40,500 sociology class, "That girl wears the same 1563 00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:41,916 dress every day." 1564 00:57:43,458 --> 00:57:46,625 Okay, so I'm ashamed to say I basically left in 1565 00:57:46,625 --> 00:57:48,458 tears and went back to our little dorm 1566 00:57:48,458 --> 00:57:48,958 apartment. 1567 00:57:49,833 --> 00:57:51,000 And I was like, "Lord, I'm 1568 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,458 not strong enough to do this." 1569 00:57:52,458 --> 00:57:53,875 I felt so ugly. 1570 00:57:54,458 --> 00:57:57,083 I just think it's a miracle that I can go around 1571 00:57:57,083 --> 00:57:59,750 today not having mascara and all of that. 1572 00:57:59,875 --> 00:58:03,083 And I don't want to condemn anybody who does, but 1573 00:58:03,083 --> 00:58:06,166 I feel like for me, I feel like God has 1574 00:58:06,166 --> 00:58:08,458 set me free that I don't have to worry about it. 1575 00:58:08,791 --> 00:58:10,666 But I don't want to say that someone who does 1576 00:58:10,666 --> 00:58:13,291 wear it is going to hell, but I feel like 1577 00:58:13,291 --> 00:58:13,958 it's beautiful. 1578 00:58:14,541 --> 00:58:17,000 Deborah would tell me, "Oh, you're beautiful." 1579 00:58:17,708 --> 00:58:20,833 And she helped me to feel beautiful when I didn't 1580 00:58:20,833 --> 00:58:22,500 feel very beautiful, but she would 1581 00:58:22,583 --> 00:58:26,791 also highlight the outside is dying, but the 1582 00:58:26,791 --> 00:58:28,458 inside is being renewed every day. 1583 00:58:28,750 --> 00:58:31,000 And that was more what my focus should be. 1584 00:58:31,666 --> 00:58:35,125 So that was something I appreciate about my 1585 00:58:35,125 --> 00:58:38,458 journey, but I realize not everybody would 1586 00:58:38,458 --> 00:58:39,250 see it that way. 1587 00:58:40,125 --> 00:58:43,583 I wouldn't want to condemn somebody again for... 1588 00:58:44,375 --> 00:58:45,958 Because that's a hard thing in our day and age, 1589 00:58:46,333 --> 00:58:48,083 even for Anabaptist women. 1590 00:58:48,791 --> 00:58:52,291 But I feel like it's a wonderful way to go. 1591 00:58:53,458 --> 00:58:55,250 It sounds like you're going through a real 1592 00:58:55,250 --> 00:58:57,875 process of formation, I think. 1593 00:58:58,291 --> 00:58:58,500 Exactly. 1594 00:58:59,083 --> 00:59:00,416 Building new habits. 1595 00:59:00,875 --> 00:59:01,083 Absolutely. 1596 00:59:01,625 --> 00:59:02,166 It's like this... 1597 00:59:02,541 --> 00:59:02,750 Yeah. 1598 00:59:03,708 --> 00:59:05,208 A rebuilding process or a 1599 00:59:05,208 --> 00:59:06,666 building process you're going through. 1600 00:59:07,291 --> 00:59:08,583 Maybe forging might be a better way. 1601 00:59:09,166 --> 00:59:09,583 Yeah. 1602 00:59:09,583 --> 00:59:11,125 That was constantly happening. 1603 00:59:11,125 --> 00:59:14,791 I remember I had once tied an apron around my 1604 00:59:14,791 --> 00:59:16,208 waist in Deborah's kitchen. 1605 00:59:16,875 --> 00:59:19,333 I found it in her drawer and a sister came up 1606 00:59:19,333 --> 00:59:22,208 behind me at church and said, "Church was 1607 00:59:22,208 --> 00:59:23,833 David and Deborah Bercot's house." 1608 00:59:23,833 --> 00:59:25,916 But she came up and said, "Excuse me, sister. 1609 00:59:26,625 --> 00:59:28,666 Are you aware you're girded about the waist?" 1610 00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:31,916 I felt as though I'd been 1611 00:59:31,916 --> 00:59:33,416 discovered naked in the kitchen. 1612 00:59:34,625 --> 00:59:37,250 Sheepishly took the apron off thinking, "I 1613 00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:39,500 remember just feeling so exasperated, like, 1614 00:59:39,625 --> 00:59:41,958 Lord, I want to do what's right with all my heart 1615 00:59:41,958 --> 00:59:43,458 if I can just figure out what right 1616 00:59:43,458 --> 00:59:43,833 is." 1617 00:59:43,833 --> 00:59:46,375 I think when you are trying to follow the Lord, 1618 00:59:46,375 --> 00:59:48,541 what I would encourage people, be prepared 1619 00:59:48,583 --> 00:59:49,333 for a fight. 1620 00:59:50,166 --> 00:59:51,833 The enemy is not going to want you to have a 1621 00:59:51,833 --> 00:59:53,041 hunger and thirst for righteousness. 1622 00:59:53,375 --> 00:59:55,833 He's not going to want you to have a longing to 1623 00:59:55,833 --> 00:59:57,416 want to please Christ, even if it makes 1624 00:59:57,416 --> 01:00:00,291 you different from some of your fellow believers 1625 01:00:00,291 --> 01:00:02,250 and people that you feel have passed you up 1626 01:00:02,250 --> 01:00:02,791 in the faith. 1627 01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:05,583 But we still have to be willing to, if we are 1628 01:00:05,583 --> 01:00:08,291 willing to all, just do the best we can 1629 01:00:08,625 --> 01:00:11,125 to interpret and live out what we see. 1630 01:00:11,791 --> 01:00:14,416 At the end of the day, Jesus is going to have his 1631 01:00:14,416 --> 01:00:16,416 prayer answered that we all may be one. 1632 01:00:17,666 --> 01:00:21,041 We can have long-suffering in the meantime. 1633 01:00:21,041 --> 01:00:21,833 We can be gracious. 1634 01:00:22,166 --> 01:00:24,416 We can believe the best for each 1635 01:00:24,416 --> 01:00:26,291 other and esteem each other higher. 1636 01:00:27,416 --> 01:00:28,750 But in the meantime, still be 1637 01:00:28,750 --> 01:00:30,708 willing to be different for Christ. 1638 01:00:31,291 --> 01:00:33,000 But no, the enemy is not 1639 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,250 going to take it laying down. 1640 01:00:34,583 --> 01:00:37,250 You're going to be probably having a battle, but 1641 01:00:37,250 --> 01:00:39,583 don't fear it because the Lord has brought 1642 01:00:39,583 --> 01:00:43,083 me through so many hard things that the enemy 1643 01:00:43,083 --> 01:00:46,250 tried to usurp or stop or interfere with that 1644 01:00:46,250 --> 01:00:47,291 the Lord brought me through. 1645 01:00:48,916 --> 01:00:50,083 But I realize it's good to 1646 01:00:50,083 --> 01:00:51,583 give that little bit of a warning. 1647 01:00:52,208 --> 01:00:54,250 You might encounter some difficulty as well, but 1648 01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:55,416 don't let it hinder you. 1649 01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:58,875 Just know if you persevere, you'll start seeing 1650 01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:01,041 the miraculous on your behalf. 1651 01:01:03,083 --> 01:01:07,916 It's this concept of it's not 1652 01:01:07,916 --> 01:01:09,750 going to be easy necessarily, right? 1653 01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:12,083 It's not like you're reading your Bible and 1654 01:01:12,083 --> 01:01:13,583 suddenly angels start singing and it's like, 1655 01:01:13,583 --> 01:01:15,000 "Wow, this is the right way to go." 1656 01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,041 And bingo, everything's 1657 01:01:16,041 --> 01:01:18,208 great and life just worked out. 1658 01:01:19,166 --> 01:01:21,125 But it is a long process because somewhere along 1659 01:01:21,125 --> 01:01:22,916 the way, you realize you have all these 1660 01:01:22,916 --> 01:01:25,791 high ideals, but behind closed doors, you're 1661 01:01:25,791 --> 01:01:28,416 failing at moments where I'm like... I know 1662 01:01:28,416 --> 01:01:29,375 it still happens today. 1663 01:01:29,916 --> 01:01:32,708 And I will say God has definitely made me 1664 01:01:32,708 --> 01:01:35,375 stronger and I've grown stronger. 1665 01:01:35,666 --> 01:01:37,791 Some new Christian muscles I didn't have before, 1666 01:01:37,791 --> 01:01:40,416 but I'm still very much a work in process. 1667 01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:44,916 I'm glad you used that word "ideals" because I'm 1668 01:01:44,916 --> 01:01:47,208 guessing, but when you're in a situation 1669 01:01:47,208 --> 01:01:48,166 like you were in, right? 1670 01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:51,041 And you start learning some things like, "Oh, we 1671 01:01:51,041 --> 01:01:53,416 need to change this and this and this," 1672 01:01:53,416 --> 01:01:53,666 whatever. 1673 01:01:54,416 --> 01:01:56,166 And then you start looking to these other groups 1674 01:01:56,166 --> 01:01:57,875 like, "Ah, maybe that's it." 1675 01:01:57,875 --> 01:01:58,750 And then you could have 1676 01:01:58,750 --> 01:02:00,416 these ideals of, "Oh, great. 1677 01:02:00,416 --> 01:02:02,250 If we can just be like that, we'll be good. 1678 01:02:02,458 --> 01:02:03,208 It'll be great." 1679 01:02:03,458 --> 01:02:03,541 Absolutely. 1680 01:02:03,875 --> 01:02:04,916 This was our trajectory. 1681 01:02:06,291 --> 01:02:08,166 I hear a lot of people say this. 1682 01:02:08,375 --> 01:02:09,083 We're builders. 1683 01:02:09,083 --> 01:02:12,625 We wanted to do it together, but you just have to 1684 01:02:12,625 --> 01:02:15,083 have the mentality, like let the Lord 1685 01:02:15,083 --> 01:02:18,333 build the church and do the best you can to be a 1686 01:02:18,333 --> 01:02:20,500 humble little member in it and be, "What's 1687 01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:21,250 my role here? 1688 01:02:21,250 --> 01:02:22,416 How can I be a builder? 1689 01:02:22,416 --> 01:02:24,916 How can I be an encourager, a support?" 1690 01:02:25,875 --> 01:02:29,250 Because that is something when someone realizes 1691 01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:31,458 that, "Oh, the way I was living or the way 1692 01:02:31,458 --> 01:02:32,916 I was reading scripture, I now 1693 01:02:32,916 --> 01:02:34,625 don't believe that way anymore. 1694 01:02:34,625 --> 01:02:36,291 I've changed that belief system." 1695 01:02:37,166 --> 01:02:39,000 Then it can be like, "Ah, now we've got it." 1696 01:02:39,291 --> 01:02:43,416 And this ideal of, "We've got it sorted now," is 1697 01:02:43,416 --> 01:02:46,333 a pretty easy place to get into. 1698 01:02:46,333 --> 01:02:46,583 I don't know. 1699 01:02:46,583 --> 01:02:47,333 I just had a lot of 1700 01:02:47,333 --> 01:02:49,083 interactions where that was the case. 1701 01:02:49,083 --> 01:02:51,541 And then you kind of disillusion because at the 1702 01:02:51,541 --> 01:02:53,375 end of the day, the church still is full 1703 01:02:53,375 --> 01:02:55,666 of people and we can be a 1704 01:02:55,666 --> 01:02:57,833 little selfish or not kind sometimes. 1705 01:02:58,125 --> 01:02:58,958 And it gets complicated. 1706 01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:00,750 You're so wise for your age, Reagan. 1707 01:03:01,958 --> 01:03:03,291 I've just talked to a lot of people. 1708 01:03:03,833 --> 01:03:08,875 You're just right on your point. But we get it. Yeah. We hear from different people who listen to this 1709 01:03:08,875 --> 01:03:11,208 podcast and they're making some changes 1710 01:03:11,208 --> 01:03:12,333 and they really believe it. 1711 01:03:12,458 --> 01:03:13,208 And that's wonderful. 1712 01:03:14,083 --> 01:03:16,541 But at the same time, it can 1713 01:03:16,541 --> 01:03:19,291 be easy to idealize, "Oh, okay. 1714 01:03:19,291 --> 01:03:20,666 If we're just like that, 1715 01:03:20,666 --> 01:03:21,583 everything will be fine." 1716 01:03:22,666 --> 01:03:24,458 And I think what you're saying is like, "Well, 1717 01:03:24,875 --> 01:03:26,625 don't give up on the convictions, but also 1718 01:03:26,625 --> 01:03:27,666 acknowledge it's going to be hard." 1719 01:03:27,666 --> 01:03:28,250 That's right. 1720 01:03:28,250 --> 01:03:30,208 And know that there may be different 1721 01:03:30,208 --> 01:03:31,625 representation and different 1722 01:03:31,625 --> 01:03:32,916 thoughts and different practice 1723 01:03:32,916 --> 01:03:33,500 and different... 1724 01:03:34,208 --> 01:03:34,416 Yeah. 1725 01:03:34,833 --> 01:03:37,083 And be okay with that so far as 1726 01:03:37,083 --> 01:03:39,208 being gracious with each other. 1727 01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:40,916 But also not shy away. 1728 01:03:41,125 --> 01:03:44,250 My personality type is to shy away from when I 1729 01:03:44,250 --> 01:03:46,000 feel like it's the ultimate right thing. 1730 01:03:46,541 --> 01:03:50,125 Because I want to be gracious to maybe someone 1731 01:03:50,125 --> 01:03:52,208 who doesn't see it like me or I don't want 1732 01:03:52,208 --> 01:03:54,000 someone to feel like I've rejected them because 1733 01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,250 they don't see it like me. 1734 01:03:56,375 --> 01:03:59,291 And I realize that a lot of great men and women 1735 01:03:59,291 --> 01:04:01,458 have gone before us who gave their very 1736 01:04:01,458 --> 01:04:04,333 lives who, yeah, they maybe 1737 01:04:04,333 --> 01:04:06,208 didn't see everything the way we did. 1738 01:04:06,208 --> 01:04:09,250 And so at the end of the day, I always think 1739 01:04:09,250 --> 01:04:12,041 about how we see through a glass darkly at 1740 01:04:12,041 --> 01:04:13,125 this time in life. 1741 01:04:13,125 --> 01:04:15,583 But at the same time, I always say we get the 1742 01:04:15,583 --> 01:04:18,208 privilege every day to try to do the very 1743 01:04:18,208 --> 01:04:21,916 best we can to say, "Lord, oh, Lord, help me be 1744 01:04:21,916 --> 01:04:23,541 hungry and thirsty for righteousness. 1745 01:04:23,833 --> 01:04:24,833 Help me not lose that. 1746 01:04:25,416 --> 01:04:26,666 Help me to please You. 1747 01:04:26,666 --> 01:04:27,833 Help me to do what You need. 1748 01:04:29,041 --> 01:04:30,000 Help me fulfill all my 1749 01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,041 purpose like the Psalms say, 1750 01:04:32,666 --> 01:04:34,541 'May you fulfill all your purpose'" The Lord 1751 01:04:34,541 --> 01:04:37,458 has purposes He wants fulfilled for His glory 1752 01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:38,666 in each one of us. 1753 01:04:38,875 --> 01:04:39,916 And we don't know. 1754 01:04:40,125 --> 01:04:42,125 I won't know my brothers' or my sisters' role. 1755 01:04:42,125 --> 01:04:43,500 I just need to worry about mine. 1756 01:04:44,208 --> 01:04:47,791 You know, and just try to not be discouraged if 1757 01:04:47,791 --> 01:04:48,750 we don't see it exactly. 1758 01:04:48,750 --> 01:04:51,041 But I wish for that unity all the time. 1759 01:04:51,958 --> 01:04:54,958 And then the idealism, yeah, that's we've had to 1760 01:04:54,958 --> 01:04:57,708 have a lot of balloons deflated and 1761 01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:59,958 sails deflated along the way. 1762 01:05:00,333 --> 01:05:01,250 Just like, okay. 1763 01:05:01,916 --> 01:05:04,083 Like in the Pilgrim's Progress, 1764 01:05:04,333 --> 01:05:06,250 "Is this the bliss you spoke of?" 1765 01:05:06,750 --> 01:05:08,125 You know, like, this is 1766 01:05:08,125 --> 01:05:09,916 not exactly what I expected. 1767 01:05:10,458 --> 01:05:12,416 It's harder than, you know, than we thought. 1768 01:05:12,875 --> 01:05:14,083 Yeah, it is. 1769 01:05:14,083 --> 01:05:14,250 It is. 1770 01:05:14,250 --> 01:05:14,708 More complicated. 1771 01:05:15,333 --> 01:05:15,625 It is. 1772 01:05:15,875 --> 01:05:16,125 Amen. 1773 01:05:16,666 --> 01:05:17,541 That's for sure. 1774 01:05:18,208 --> 01:05:24,125 So for, just to wrap this whole package down to a 1775 01:05:24,125 --> 01:05:26,125 final question here, for anyone listening 1776 01:05:26,208 --> 01:05:28,750 to this that perhaps is on a similar journey that 1777 01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:31,291 you went through or is processing through 1778 01:05:31,291 --> 01:05:33,666 and what does Jesus want me to do? 1779 01:05:34,416 --> 01:05:37,208 And maybe I need to make some changes in things I 1780 01:05:37,208 --> 01:05:38,208 believe or the way I live. 1781 01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,291 What would you say to those people that are in 1782 01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:43,500 that process right now and wrestling 1783 01:05:43,583 --> 01:05:44,416 through those questions 1784 01:05:44,416 --> 01:05:46,166 and trying to find their way? 1785 01:05:46,166 --> 01:05:47,000 What would you say to them? 1786 01:05:47,375 --> 01:05:50,833 I would say walk and talk with Jesus, ask Him, 1787 01:05:51,208 --> 01:05:55,166 and then also dare to believe big dreams, 1788 01:05:55,250 --> 01:05:57,791 like dream big dreams and dare to believe God can 1789 01:05:57,791 --> 01:05:59,291 do it because I do believe there's 1790 01:05:59,291 --> 01:06:02,416 something about, you know, "Oh ye of little faith." 1791 01:06:02,416 --> 01:06:06,416 And I have been still today sometimes of little 1792 01:06:06,416 --> 01:06:09,333 faith, but just daring to believe that the 1793 01:06:09,333 --> 01:06:11,583 Lord can provide every need and abundance of 1794 01:06:11,583 --> 01:06:14,125 whether it's fellowship, whether it's answers 1795 01:06:14,125 --> 01:06:17,833 for your questions and just keep tapping into His 1796 01:06:17,833 --> 01:06:20,625 grace, keep knocking being that importunate 1797 01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:22,791 widow or the persistent widow. 1798 01:06:22,791 --> 01:06:24,500 That's the modern version is better word, 1799 01:06:24,833 --> 01:06:26,916 persistent widow that keeps knocking and the 1800 01:06:26,916 --> 01:06:30,708 Lord says, hey, I'm not going to turn you away. 1801 01:06:30,708 --> 01:06:32,958 And then He says, if we ask for wisdom, He'll 1802 01:06:32,958 --> 01:06:34,583 give it and not hold back, you know? 1803 01:06:35,291 --> 01:06:38,000 And so just keep knocking, keep asking, be that 1804 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:40,833 persistent widow and He will, He will 1805 01:06:40,833 --> 01:06:43,958 show you, He will bring miraculous things your 1806 01:06:43,958 --> 01:06:45,750 way and He will bring fellowship. 1807 01:06:46,041 --> 01:06:50,916 He will feed you in desert places and probably 1808 01:06:50,916 --> 01:06:55,166 surpass your wildest dream. Fellowship and 1809 01:06:55,166 --> 01:06:59,000 the joy in that and how it just grows the more 1810 01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,791 you get to know God's people and seeing 1811 01:07:01,958 --> 01:07:03,500 God working all over the world-- 1812 01:07:04,416 --> 01:07:08,375 It's just such an inspiration and yeah, He's a 1813 01:07:08,375 --> 01:07:11,291 good father, a good provider and keep asking 1814 01:07:11,375 --> 01:07:13,958 Him and don't be afraid to be persistent. 1815 01:07:14,333 --> 01:07:17,041 That's I think my most important point because 1816 01:07:17,041 --> 01:07:19,916 he hears the whisper of a prayer even 1817 01:07:19,958 --> 01:07:22,791 before we call and He cares. 1818 01:07:24,041 --> 01:07:24,875 I love that. 1819 01:07:26,541 --> 01:07:27,500 Well, thank you so much for 1820 01:07:27,500 --> 01:07:29,125 sharing your story today, Tania. 1821 01:07:29,125 --> 01:07:30,500 Oh, it was my pleasure, Reagan. 1822 01:07:30,583 --> 01:07:31,750 Thank you so much. 1823 01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:33,125 Yeah, I've really enjoyed this. 1824 01:07:33,125 --> 01:07:34,375 Been wanting to do this for a long time. 1825 01:07:34,875 --> 01:07:35,291 Thank you. 1826 01:07:35,958 --> 01:07:36,333 I appreciate it. 1827 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,208 Thanks for listening to this episode with Tania. 1828 01:07:40,416 --> 01:07:42,958 She referred to her husband Dean's story in this 1829 01:07:42,958 --> 01:07:44,791 episode and we interviewed him and 1830 01:07:44,791 --> 01:07:46,041 got that story as well, which 1831 01:07:46,041 --> 01:07:47,916 you can find linked down below. 1832 01:07:48,541 --> 01:07:50,000 Thanks again for listening and 1833 01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,375 we'll catch you in the next episode.