We just fell on our knees and we're like, "Lord,

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from now on, we want to follow You

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with all our hearts.

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We want to do everything."

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We had our Bible and we're like, "Lord, we want

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to do everything we see in this book,

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even if it makes us weird."

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And I had no idea what I was

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saying, how weird I was going to become.

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And Dean always says, "It wasn't like any rockets

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went off or anything, but it was like

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this subtle feeling, one of those moments that

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like, okay, something has changed and

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things aren't going to be the same again."

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Tania, welcome to the podcast. Thank you.

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I've been wanting to do

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this for a long time, actually.

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We've interviewed your husband, Dean, and got his

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story, but never, never sat down and

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got your story on this podcast.

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And I really want to do that.

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Just for some context, you were in the United

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States Army for a number of years and ultimately

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left that.

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And there's kind of a long story of the journey

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of trying to find a church community and work

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through these new convictions

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and things that you're learning.

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So we want to get that story today

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and just see where that takes us.

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So the first question I have for

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you, let's start at the beginning.

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Where were you born?

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Were you raised in a Christian home?

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Tell me a bit of your upbringing.

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I was born in Irving, Texas, which is in Dallas

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County, which is sort of between Dallas-Fort

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Worth.

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Dallas-Fort Worth is like a big metroplex.

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So I was born and raised there.

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And I was born into a

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Christian home thanks to my mom.

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She was the backbone of--

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very spiritually minded mom.

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And she and her sisters were all born again.

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And so we were brought up in the Assemblies of

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God Church until like some point when I

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was in my young teens, we started going to maybe

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churches that said they were non-affiliated

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or non-denominational, but

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they still had sort of like that.

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Maybe you'd call it charismatic flair.

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But I'm very thankful for that influence because

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I always tell people like as a child, I always

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marvel at this now, like they'd like lay hands on

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us and pray over us fervently and like

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anoint us with oil and pray

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like we cry out to the Lord.

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And I know I was meaning it with all my heart.

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Lord help me and come and bless me and guide my

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life, but didn't fully comprehend everything.

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But I think it's a neat thing that I had.

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And it was definitely not a

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perfect church growing up.

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But it was definitely where I received my faith.

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I grew up with the Christian

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television on in my home a lot.

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Pat Robertson, 700 Club.

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That was a big thing for our family.

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Oh my, we just respected him so much.

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I even campaigned for him when he came through.

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I went into the campaign center and helped

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support him for president.

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He was running for president.

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That's right.

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I forget what year, 1986 maybe

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or somewhere around that time.

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Yeah, because he's-- I think he's pretty--

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He was a big deal back then.

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I mean, for my generation,

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we probably don't even know.

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We just really appreciated...

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He just was such an inspiration.

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So I saw testimonies all the time.

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People like Corrie Ten Boom.

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She's one of my favorite

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heroes of the faith, sort of modern day.

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But so many people like that telling one story

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after another after another of what the Lord

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did for them.

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And so it gave me this amazing, almost

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egotistical idea as a

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little girl, like, God is real.

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And like the way in our churches, we were

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sort of taught name and claim it.

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And I had to take a few steps back and realize

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sometimes the cross wasn't something

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you could name and claim.

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Like, you didn't necessarily

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want what the Lord had in mind.

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But in essence, I think it gave me a great

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springboard of faith to say, yeah, the Lord

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is real.

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Why wouldn't anybody want him

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and what Jesus has done for us?

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So at what age would have

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you made a profession of faith?

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Probably at the age of 15,

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made a profession of faith.

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And even before that, I have very many memories

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of just like crying out to God on my bed at night,

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you know, praying for my future

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husband, wherever he was or praying for.

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We had many financial hardships and praying that

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God would help us with our, I would pray

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he would provide for us miraculously.

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And I just had a faith as a little girl, but it

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doesn't mean I wasn't very naughty sometimes

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too.

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But I definitely treasure that seedbed of faith I

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got growing up in those churches where

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there were a lot of good things in place like

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women being keepers at home and if they

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were married and just, you know, father being the

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head of the home and, you know, children

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should respect their parents.

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And I felt like we had a lot of, you know, we ate

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dinner around the table every night

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as a family.

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And there were a lot of good things there that as

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I grew older, I recognized, well,

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I was privileged to have that.

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So I'm grateful for that now.

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So you have that upbringing.

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You know, you come to Christ, all of these

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things, somewhere along those lines though,

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you decide to enlist in the United States Army.

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Now what influenced that decision?

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Was that, was there a family history of that?

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Was there, oh, I really love this country and I

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want to do this or was it, I mean, Texas,

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you know, some of the Texas

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side of things coming out.

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Like I just, what was the

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influence going on there?

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The biggest influence on that was my husband.

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I remember we were playing in a little Dixieland

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band at Six Flags Over Texas and a man came

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up to us and said, you know, you

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should think of joining the army band.

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You guys could be in the army band.

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I was sort of like not interested and Dean really

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engaged with this man and was wanting

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to know more about it.

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He said, you know, you could get the army college

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fund and it's just a wonderful career.

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And I would think, why, at that time I thought,

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why would you want to join the army?

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But then I would, I remember going to visit Dean

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before we were married on the base and

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I sort of caught, it's almost like I got the

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little bug of patriotism.

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I already had a little bit of that of my dad

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having come as a refugee to America at the

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age of 19 and being so grateful

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for the freedom we had in America.

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Where was he refugee from?

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Where was he a refugee from?

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Hungary.

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Oh, okay.

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So he grew up in a lot of turmoil and

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particularly as a young man

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seeing the Hungarian revolution

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happening and he'd lived

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not far outside of Budapest.

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And yeah, he saw a lot of hard things like my

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grandfather and my great grandfather being

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taken to Siberian concentration camps.

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And thank goodness they were able to escape by

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cutting a hole in the bottom of a rail

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car and walking all the way back apparently or

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found their way back somehow.

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So this would have been

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1940s, 50s, like after the war. Good question.

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I don't really know those details.

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I just know that my dad says he remembers his dad

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kissing him goodbye before he left

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and he pretended to be asleep.

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And he said he was sort of sad.

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He was always sad until his dad

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came home that he didn't let him know.

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I was aware you were giving me a kiss goodbye.

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But yeah, then my grandma would sit and look out

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the window apparently praying every day

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for him to come home.

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Then one day they come walking home, he said he

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almost didn't recognize him.

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It was the first time he

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had seen his dad with a beard.

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So it was like, wow, it was a big celebration for

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the whole, their community was really

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close.

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They still are sort of a close-knit community,

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so yeah. That's a wild story.

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So you have that in your family

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history and those are powerful stories.

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And so I can imagine, yeah, you come to America

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as a refugee from a situation like that.

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Very grateful.

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So you would have felt that for sure growing up.

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So there was definitely a flavor of that.

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Patriotism, I value this country

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in what it stands for, freedom.

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Am I getting it about right?

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Absolutely.

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My dad always told me, don't ever take this

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country for granted because I know what it

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was like to see a lot of hard things that it

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doesn't always just go this nicely is what

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we're experiencing.

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And so it did definitely, I was grateful for it.

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They did give me an appreciation.

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But it went to the next level when I married my

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husband because coming in as an army wife

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and just being so proud to be on that team.

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And we were very close-knit in Germany, kind of

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like a little America over there, those

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of us who were stationed in that area.

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At that time I was an army bandsman wife and we

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kind of like hung out together.

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A lot of us went to the same Baptist church and

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our youth leaders lived two stories above

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us.

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We had a neat relationship.

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But that patriotic fervor, I

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definitely was very excited about that.

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I got that vision for that and it was very much

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something I believed in with all my heart.

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So yeah, it seemed to

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make sense to me at the time.

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So your husband would have enlisted before you?

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Did you enlist at the same time?

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Yes, that's correct.

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He enlisted before we were married and then

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about, I don't know if it was about six months

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or more in, he came back to visit and asked me to

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marry him and then six months later

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we were married.

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So then it took two months for the army to cut

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orders for me to come with a military

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ID as a family member and

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then joined him there in Germany.

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But in less than a year from that time, I had

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decided to enlist myself and also joined,

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but I had to leave him for nine

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long months in order to do that.

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That was the bad part of the deal.

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The nine months was just going through the

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initial initiation process, is that right?

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Well, yeah, basically, so first year you flown to

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basic training, which I was stationed to

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Fort Jackson, South Carolina.

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And that's two months.

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And there's often just a little bit of holding

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period before you start basic training and

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then maybe a little bit of

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holding period after you graduate.

269

00:10:07,458 --> 00:10:09,958

Then I was sent to the US Army Element School of

270

00:10:09,958 --> 00:10:12,541

Music in Virginia Beach, or Norfolk, Virginia,

271

00:10:13,333 --> 00:10:15,166

where we trained with the Army, Navy, and Marine

272

00:10:15,166 --> 00:10:18,500

Corps, all except the Air Force, all

273

00:10:18,500 --> 00:10:20,250

the military bands trained there.

274

00:10:20,750 --> 00:10:23,833

So I was there for six months, but so all in all,

275

00:10:23,833 --> 00:10:26,750

it took nine months before I was actually

276

00:10:27,333 --> 00:10:29,583

brought back to my husband in Germany.

277

00:10:30,541 --> 00:10:33,416

But this is the 1980s we're talking here, right?

278

00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:36,416

So Germany was divided, East/ West Germany, et cetera,

279

00:10:36,416 --> 00:10:38,833

the famous Berlin Wall and so forth,

280

00:10:38,833 --> 00:10:39,333

Iron Curtain.

281

00:10:39,791 --> 00:10:41,583

Now talk to me about that a little,

282

00:10:41,583 --> 00:10:43,833

because I'm removed enough from it.

283

00:10:43,833 --> 00:10:45,458

And I think our generation's kind of lost...

284

00:10:46,458 --> 00:10:48,500

My generation and younger has kind of lost touch of

285

00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:50,916

kind of how crazy the world was there for

286

00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:53,875

a couple decades with the divide between the USSR

287

00:10:53,875 --> 00:10:57,708

and the West and the arms race and the

288

00:10:57,708 --> 00:10:58,791

Cold War and all of these things.

289

00:10:59,250 --> 00:11:01,416

You're kind of close to the

290

00:11:01,416 --> 00:11:02,416

center of all of that, right?

291

00:11:02,416 --> 00:11:04,791

Because Germany was this, at least on a map,

292

00:11:05,083 --> 00:11:06,166

that's where the dividing lines were.

293

00:11:07,125 --> 00:11:08,250

Did that feel strange or was

294

00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:09,583

it like this is normal life?

295

00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:11,000

It definitely felt

296

00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,333

strange visiting for my husband.

297

00:11:14,583 --> 00:11:17,083

I didn't go until the wall came down, but it

298

00:11:17,083 --> 00:11:18,750

definitely felt strange being aware of

299

00:11:18,750 --> 00:11:19,458

that, knowing how to

300

00:11:19,458 --> 00:11:21,916

affected my father and his family.

301

00:11:21,916 --> 00:11:24,791

My father was always afraid to go back and visit.

302

00:11:24,791 --> 00:11:26,291

He was afraid that it might

303

00:11:26,291 --> 00:11:29,041

endanger his family there in Hungary.

304

00:11:29,291 --> 00:11:31,000

And so, yeah, I was aware of some of those

305

00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,416

strange things that seemed strange to me anyway.

306

00:11:35,208 --> 00:11:37,916

But after I joined the army and being in the army

307

00:11:37,916 --> 00:11:41,458

band there in Germany, I didn't really

308

00:11:42,166 --> 00:11:44,875

think of it as being anything to fear.

309

00:11:45,375 --> 00:11:48,708

Maybe I was clueless, but at the time it really

310

00:11:48,708 --> 00:11:52,000

didn't impact me a lot being there in the

311

00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:52,583

army band.

312

00:11:54,250 --> 00:11:58,958

We had reforger where all the troops would come

313

00:11:58,958 --> 00:12:03,458

around and we'd all prepare how to defend

314

00:12:03,916 --> 00:12:06,875

an attack from Russia, but we all sort of would

315

00:12:06,875 --> 00:12:08,416

laugh about it like, "This is never

316

00:12:08,416 --> 00:12:09,125

going to happen."

317

00:12:12,208 --> 00:12:14,833

Maybe we were just little kids

318

00:12:14,833 --> 00:12:15,750

that didn't know better,

319

00:12:15,750 --> 00:12:18,083

but it just didn't really seem

320

00:12:18,291 --> 00:12:19,916

like an imminent threat or

321

00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:21,291

anything to us at the time.

322

00:12:21,875 --> 00:12:23,666

It seems to me like what you're describing is

323

00:12:23,666 --> 00:12:27,041

like you just had your normal life in a

324

00:12:27,041 --> 00:12:27,583

way, right?

325

00:12:28,125 --> 00:12:28,333

Right, exactly.

326

00:12:28,333 --> 00:12:28,916

Absolutely, yes.

327

00:12:29,083 --> 00:12:31,375

And we really enjoyed being in the army band.

328

00:12:31,375 --> 00:12:32,666

For an army job,

329

00:12:32,666 --> 00:12:33,583

it's wonderful.

330

00:12:33,583 --> 00:12:35,833

You're doing as a musician what you love to do.

331

00:12:35,833 --> 00:12:37,291

We had a secondary job on the side.

332

00:12:37,291 --> 00:12:40,458

I was a band librarian and my husband was an

333

00:12:40,458 --> 00:12:43,208

armorer, which you probably heard that before

334

00:12:43,583 --> 00:12:45,000

But yeah, we loved it.

335

00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,708

We were kind of like a little family even just as a

336

00:12:48,708 --> 00:12:51,875

band, so had a good time together.

337

00:12:51,875 --> 00:12:54,250

Yeah, this is an interesting

338

00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:55,500

picture that you're painting.

339

00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,625

I'm just trying to get my head around what this

340

00:12:57,625 --> 00:12:59,625

was like and what the context that you

341

00:12:59,625 --> 00:13:01,208

were experiencing.

342

00:13:02,791 --> 00:13:04,333

How long then were you a

343

00:13:04,333 --> 00:13:06,333

soldier in the United States Army?

344

00:13:06,333 --> 00:13:08,875

Just shy of three years.

345

00:13:09,208 --> 00:13:11,750

I would have fulfilled my three-year enlistment,

346

00:13:11,750 --> 00:13:14,791

but thankfully I was able to be released as

347

00:13:14,916 --> 00:13:17,708

honorably as a conscientious objector.

348

00:13:17,708 --> 00:13:19,666

So I was just shy of that, which was sort of hard

349

00:13:19,666 --> 00:13:21,625

for me because I felt like I don't

350

00:13:21,625 --> 00:13:23,333

want to be a quitter.

351

00:13:23,333 --> 00:13:25,500

And I wanted to be a good girl.

352

00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:26,416

I wanted to be faithful.

353

00:13:26,416 --> 00:13:28,250

I wanted to do what I had sworn

354

00:13:28,250 --> 00:13:31,041

in my enlistment that I would do.

355

00:13:31,041 --> 00:13:32,791

So that was sort of hard.

356

00:13:32,791 --> 00:13:34,541

So yeah, talk to me about that.

357

00:13:34,541 --> 00:13:36,833

The process, well, I want to get into the bit of

358

00:13:36,833 --> 00:13:39,041

the process of what it takes to become

359

00:13:39,041 --> 00:13:40,583

a conscientious objector, the CO status.

360

00:13:41,083 --> 00:13:44,333

But before that, like what you're describing, it

361

00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:46,000

seems like you had a normal life.

362

00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:47,000

Things were fine.

363

00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:47,583

You enjoyed it.

364

00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:51,250

Why go and upset this nice life

365

00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:52,666

that you and your husband have?

366

00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:53,875

What changed?

367

00:13:54,791 --> 00:13:56,041

Definitely, it was a God thing.

368

00:13:56,333 --> 00:13:57,625

I have no question about it.

369

00:13:58,791 --> 00:14:00,125

I think the first thing that you

370

00:14:00,125 --> 00:14:02,750

try to wonder what happened first.

371

00:14:03,208 --> 00:14:05,041

I look back at different things.

372

00:14:05,041 --> 00:14:06,458

There were Jehovah's Witnesses who would

373

00:14:06,458 --> 00:14:07,791

regularly come to our door.

374

00:14:08,666 --> 00:14:11,375

And at the time, so I'll back up a tiny bit, I

375

00:14:11,375 --> 00:14:13,208

ended up getting into the rock band with

376

00:14:13,208 --> 00:14:13,791

my husband.

377

00:14:15,125 --> 00:14:18,916

And we backslid in those days, being in the rock

378

00:14:18,916 --> 00:14:20,416

band, started playing clubs.

379

00:14:20,708 --> 00:14:23,000

And then you start missing church on Sunday

380

00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:24,875

because you're out late on Saturday night.

381

00:14:25,208 --> 00:14:27,458

And besides, you want to practice on Sunday.

382

00:14:27,458 --> 00:14:28,583

And we started doing it on the

383

00:14:28,583 --> 00:14:30,375

side, not just in the army band.

384

00:14:31,625 --> 00:14:32,791

And I felt convicted.

385

00:14:33,125 --> 00:14:35,583

I knew I was like, I knew the Lord was sort of

386

00:14:35,583 --> 00:14:37,333

saying to me, you want to have one foot

387

00:14:37,333 --> 00:14:38,666

in the world and one foot with

388

00:14:38,666 --> 00:14:40,125

me, but you have to make a choice.

389

00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,875

And I remember telling Dean, these Jehovah's

390

00:14:44,875 --> 00:14:46,458

Witnesses, they'd come and sit at our table

391

00:14:46,458 --> 00:14:48,125

and we try and reason

392

00:14:48,125 --> 00:14:49,666

with them on the scriptures.

393

00:14:49,666 --> 00:14:51,375

And I said, they're going

394

00:14:51,375 --> 00:14:52,500

door to door with a lie.

395

00:14:52,833 --> 00:14:54,666

And we have the truth and we're

396

00:14:54,666 --> 00:14:56,625

not really taking this seriously.

397

00:14:57,125 --> 00:14:59,541

So that was, Dean says that wasn't quite so

398

00:14:59,541 --> 00:15:04,083

influential in his moment of crisis or whatever.

399

00:15:04,083 --> 00:15:06,833

But for me, that was definitely a precursor to

400

00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:09,916

God working in my heart of convicting me

401

00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,041

of my being sort of lukewarm, not just sort of

402

00:15:14,041 --> 00:15:16,916

definitely being lukewarm and careless

403

00:15:17,541 --> 00:15:18,958

with my commitment to Christ.

404

00:15:19,458 --> 00:15:21,958

And so then I remember the fateful moment and

405

00:15:21,958 --> 00:15:23,583

maybe you've heard Dean talk about this,

406

00:15:23,791 --> 00:15:25,250

that we walked into a

407

00:15:25,250 --> 00:15:26,500

Stars and Stripes bookstore.

408

00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,666

It's basically just at the PX, there's a usually

409

00:15:29,666 --> 00:15:32,791

a little news stand and they had books there.

410

00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:33,791

And there was a Christian

411

00:15:33,791 --> 00:15:37,416

book by the Keith Green's wife.

412

00:15:37,666 --> 00:15:42,000

He was the 1980s singer songwriter who also had a

413

00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:43,833

radical testimony of just trying to

414

00:15:43,833 --> 00:15:45,375

be obedient and follow

415

00:15:45,375 --> 00:15:46,875

Christ no matter what the cost.

416

00:15:47,625 --> 00:15:49,625

And his book by his wife

417

00:15:49,625 --> 00:15:52,083

compiled the book, wrote the book.

418

00:15:52,083 --> 00:15:53,458

It's called No Compromise

419

00:15:53,458 --> 00:15:54,958

and her name is Melody Green.

420

00:15:55,916 --> 00:15:57,708

And that book, Dean picked it up.

421

00:15:57,708 --> 00:15:59,750

It's like this thick and it had a watercolor

422

00:15:59,750 --> 00:16:01,958

picture of Keith Green, like with a big afro

423

00:16:01,958 --> 00:16:02,625

on the front.

424

00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:03,708

It looks sort of funny.

425

00:16:04,083 --> 00:16:06,708

And Dean used to say, he said, I haven't read

426

00:16:06,708 --> 00:16:08,708

since I was a kid, you know, and he didn't

427

00:16:08,708 --> 00:16:09,750

even like reading as a kid.

428

00:16:10,041 --> 00:16:10,375

He hated it.

429

00:16:10,375 --> 00:16:10,541

Really?

430

00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,166

Oh, I wouldn't guess that now.

431

00:16:12,166 --> 00:16:12,625

He said the only thing I

432

00:16:12,625 --> 00:16:14,125

ever read was Artie the Smarty.

433

00:16:14,125 --> 00:16:15,208

I always thought it was so funny.

434

00:16:15,916 --> 00:16:17,416

But why did he think that book?

435

00:16:17,416 --> 00:16:19,416

Something about that book got his attention.

436

00:16:20,125 --> 00:16:22,250

He must have read something about a man with a

437

00:16:22,250 --> 00:16:24,458

commitment to follow Christ regardless the

438

00:16:24,458 --> 00:16:24,666

cost.

439

00:16:25,291 --> 00:16:25,791

He picked it up.

440

00:16:25,791 --> 00:16:27,208

I remember that moment very clearly.

441

00:16:27,416 --> 00:16:27,958

We both do.

442

00:16:27,958 --> 00:16:29,583

And him looking at me saying, I

443

00:16:29,583 --> 00:16:30,916

just really want to buy this book.

444

00:16:30,916 --> 00:16:31,750

I want to read this book.

445

00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:33,958

And I was like, you'll never read that book.

446

00:16:33,958 --> 00:16:36,625

I said, but if it makes you happy, buy it.

447

00:16:37,458 --> 00:16:38,666

You know, it's okay.

448

00:16:38,666 --> 00:16:39,208

It's okay.

449

00:16:39,208 --> 00:16:40,250

Just buy it and take it home.

450

00:16:40,875 --> 00:16:43,083

But he read that book and he's been reading

451

00:16:43,083 --> 00:16:46,708

voraciously like a wild man ever since.

452

00:16:47,958 --> 00:16:51,166

And that book was so influential in our lives.

453

00:16:52,083 --> 00:16:52,958

And it was just, yeah,

454

00:16:52,958 --> 00:16:54,375

just seeing another musician.

455

00:16:55,625 --> 00:16:56,625

So we had that in common

456

00:16:56,625 --> 00:16:58,375

and he had lived near us.

457

00:16:58,375 --> 00:17:00,875

I remembered as a little girl listening to

458

00:17:00,875 --> 00:17:03,291

Christian radio and hearing that moment we

459

00:17:03,291 --> 00:17:07,000

heard on the radio that he had died suddenly in a

460

00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:09,541

plane crash in East Texas.

461

00:17:10,333 --> 00:17:10,958

And I remember how it

462

00:17:10,958 --> 00:17:12,916

impacted me as a little girl.

463

00:17:12,916 --> 00:17:14,333

I had denial like, maybe

464

00:17:14,333 --> 00:17:15,833

we'll find out it's not true.

465

00:17:16,208 --> 00:17:18,208

You know, and so we were deeply touched.

466

00:17:18,416 --> 00:17:20,708

We knew some of his music, you know, as a little

467

00:17:20,708 --> 00:17:22,458

girl, I knew his music, some of it.

468

00:17:23,083 --> 00:17:24,541

But I grew to know more of

469

00:17:24,541 --> 00:17:25,750

it after reading his book.

470

00:17:26,833 --> 00:17:30,250

And was deeply impacted by the testimony he and

471

00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:34,416

his wife had to be wanting to do anything

472

00:17:34,666 --> 00:17:35,916

for the kingdom of heaven's sake.

473

00:17:35,916 --> 00:17:38,333

And that really got into us.

474

00:17:38,416 --> 00:17:41,583

That was a very important thing the Lord brought

475

00:17:41,583 --> 00:17:44,416

into my husband's hands and deeply

476

00:17:44,416 --> 00:17:45,375

impacted us.

477

00:17:46,416 --> 00:17:51,125

So that seems like a pivotal moment where it's

478

00:17:51,125 --> 00:17:53,500

like, okay, that's got you started taking

479

00:17:53,833 --> 00:17:55,833

at least some initial steps down a very different

480

00:17:55,833 --> 00:17:57,916

path than what you've been doing before.

481

00:17:58,750 --> 00:17:59,625

So then what happens next?

482

00:17:59,875 --> 00:18:01,625

So this gets you started, but tell

483

00:18:01,625 --> 00:18:02,916

me more of the steps of the process.

484

00:18:03,250 --> 00:18:06,250

Then the Holy Spirit starts convicting us very

485

00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:08,416

strongly to the point that we just finally

486

00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:11,750

one night on a band trip, we traveled all the

487

00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:14,041

time and had certain regular things we

488

00:18:14,041 --> 00:18:14,583

would do.

489

00:18:14,583 --> 00:18:16,750

And every year we do this thing called fasching,

490

00:18:16,750 --> 00:18:19,708

which is sort of like a European Mardi Gras

491

00:18:19,708 --> 00:18:20,458

or something.

492

00:18:20,458 --> 00:18:22,000

And people kind of go wild

493

00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,625

dancing and drinking before Lent season.

494

00:18:25,416 --> 00:18:30,041

And it's very sad and sort of, yeah, just doesn't

495

00:18:30,041 --> 00:18:31,708

feel like a very godly season, you

496

00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:32,000

know.

497

00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:34,791

But during that time we were there playing and we

498

00:18:34,791 --> 00:18:37,291

went up to our motel room and we just

499

00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:41,541

fell on our knees and we're like, Lord, we from

500

00:18:41,541 --> 00:18:44,833

now on, we don't want, we want to follow

501

00:18:44,833 --> 00:18:45,833

you with all our hearts.

502

00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:46,791

We want to do everything.

503

00:18:46,791 --> 00:18:47,500

We had our Bible.

504

00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:49,750

We're like, Lord, we want to do everything we see

505

00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:52,000

in this book, even if it makes us weird.

506

00:18:53,166 --> 00:18:54,416

And I had no idea what I was

507

00:18:54,416 --> 00:18:56,375

saying, how weird I was going to become.

508

00:18:57,458 --> 00:18:59,791

But it was, and you know, like Dean always says,

509

00:18:59,791 --> 00:19:01,333

it wasn't like any rockets went off

510

00:19:01,791 --> 00:19:04,125

or anything, but it was like this subtle feeling.

511

00:19:04,708 --> 00:19:06,916

One of those moments that like, okay, something

512

00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:09,625

has changed and things aren't going to be

513

00:19:09,625 --> 00:19:10,375

the same again.

514

00:19:11,666 --> 00:19:13,833

And so that was sort of a turning point.

515

00:19:14,250 --> 00:19:17,041

And then it was just more and more conviction,

516

00:19:17,041 --> 00:19:18,333

you know, reading the scriptures in bed at

517

00:19:18,333 --> 00:19:20,375

night and my husband suddenly

518

00:19:20,375 --> 00:19:22,958

saying, whoa, I need you to hear this.

519

00:19:22,958 --> 00:19:23,875

Let me read this to you.

520

00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:26,625

He got to the Sermon on the Mount and he reads me

521

00:19:26,625 --> 00:19:29,458

one part of the passage, you know, probably

522

00:19:29,458 --> 00:19:30,250

Matthew 5.

523

00:19:31,375 --> 00:19:33,458

I don't know if you read all 5, 6, and 7,

524

00:19:33,458 --> 00:19:35,708

but I remember reading through it and

525

00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:38,458

Jesus saying, you know, to return good for evil

526

00:19:38,458 --> 00:19:40,250

and turn the other cheek and do good,

527

00:19:40,250 --> 00:19:41,333

go the extra mile.

528

00:19:41,333 --> 00:19:42,791

And he finished it and he

529

00:19:42,791 --> 00:19:43,750

said, what do you think of that?

530

00:19:43,750 --> 00:19:46,416

And I said, well, it sounds pretty simple to me.

531

00:19:47,125 --> 00:19:48,500

And he said, yeah, but we're in the army.

532

00:19:49,166 --> 00:19:51,333

Like he was good at thinking that I was like, you

533

00:19:51,333 --> 00:19:53,083

know, not taking it very seriously.

534

00:19:53,333 --> 00:19:55,583

Like, well, this has serious implications if we

535

00:19:55,583 --> 00:19:57,083

really believe what he's saying here.

536

00:19:58,125 --> 00:20:02,125

Before that point, how much scripture studies,

537

00:20:02,125 --> 00:20:03,541

scripture reading would you say that you would

538

00:20:03,541 --> 00:20:03,958

have been doing?

539

00:20:04,708 --> 00:20:06,291

You know, I was raised with a

540

00:20:06,291 --> 00:20:08,083

good amount of scripture from my mom.

541

00:20:08,083 --> 00:20:09,375

Like she was good at quoting

542

00:20:09,375 --> 00:20:10,958

scripture still is to this day.

543

00:20:11,458 --> 00:20:15,833

Very much more though, like, I don't know, Psalms

544

00:20:15,833 --> 00:20:18,916

and Proverbs and maybe certain other

545

00:20:18,916 --> 00:20:22,625

verses, but not a lot of Bible study at all.

546

00:20:24,958 --> 00:20:26,833

And for Dean, you know, I think we were just

547

00:20:26,833 --> 00:20:30,166

basically starting like with our Bibles open

548

00:20:30,166 --> 00:20:30,708

on our laps.

549

00:20:31,583 --> 00:20:34,291

And for the first time in my life, though, in a

550

00:20:34,291 --> 00:20:36,041

peculiar way, it was as though the Lord

551

00:20:36,041 --> 00:20:38,666

was speaking personally to both of us.

552

00:20:38,666 --> 00:20:39,750

And it was just amazing.

553

00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:42,833

I know I hear sad stories where maybe one spouse

554

00:20:42,833 --> 00:20:44,416

goes through it without the other and

555

00:20:44,416 --> 00:20:45,208

it causes friction.

556

00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:47,625

But for us, it was like Jesus was

557

00:20:47,625 --> 00:20:49,416

speaking to both of us personally.

558

00:20:50,583 --> 00:20:51,791

And it was just like one thing

559

00:20:51,791 --> 00:20:53,250

would have to happen after another.

560

00:20:53,541 --> 00:20:56,750

And it was exciting, but scary because it had

561

00:20:56,750 --> 00:20:59,375

serious implications for our commitment

562

00:20:59,833 --> 00:21:00,875

as US soldiers.

563

00:21:02,750 --> 00:21:06,750

Yeah, like I think that's the part that wrestling

564

00:21:06,750 --> 00:21:10,583

with a little bit because like this is not

565

00:21:10,583 --> 00:21:11,958

on your horizons at all.

566

00:21:11,958 --> 00:21:14,000

It sounds like until this point.

567

00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:14,500

Not at all.

568

00:21:14,791 --> 00:21:17,208

I had no idea this was about to happen.

569

00:21:17,958 --> 00:21:19,166

I mean, it's just crazy.

570

00:21:19,875 --> 00:21:22,375

And just something about that recommitment to

571

00:21:22,375 --> 00:21:25,041

Christ and being sorry that I had failed

572

00:21:25,083 --> 00:21:28,000

him, just going so lukewarm

573

00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,541

and not standing for him anymore.

574

00:21:30,791 --> 00:21:33,375

I was wanting to just be cool and be in a rock

575

00:21:33,375 --> 00:21:36,333

band and drink with my friends and do

576

00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:37,750

all these things and just not

577

00:21:37,750 --> 00:21:41,250

be very set apart for the Lord.

578

00:21:42,041 --> 00:21:45,291

I was convicted by that, that my failure.

579

00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:46,208

Yeah.

580

00:21:46,875 --> 00:21:48,583

And instead of doing those things, you start

581

00:21:48,583 --> 00:21:50,416

going the other direction and reading your

582

00:21:50,416 --> 00:21:52,541

Bible and getting serious about

583

00:21:52,541 --> 00:21:54,416

what does Jesus want me to do here?

584

00:21:55,125 --> 00:21:56,833

Ooh, that must have been disorienting though.

585

00:21:56,833 --> 00:21:57,250

It was.

586

00:21:57,458 --> 00:21:57,791

It was.

587

00:21:58,708 --> 00:22:03,125

So yeah, so Dean's just looking at this and I'm

588

00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:04,666

the type of person I might have been able

589

00:22:04,666 --> 00:22:07,958

to leave it there and say, "Well, it's okay.

590

00:22:07,958 --> 00:22:09,083

The Lord will bless this."

591

00:22:09,083 --> 00:22:11,541

But it was at that time where it

592

00:22:11,541 --> 00:22:12,958

was heating up in the Middle East.

593

00:22:13,125 --> 00:22:15,000

It was on the front pages of all those little

594

00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,416

newspapers we'd see there at the Stars and

595

00:22:17,416 --> 00:22:18,041

Stripes bookstores.

596

00:22:18,416 --> 00:22:20,083

And I think all of us were getting a little

597

00:22:20,083 --> 00:22:22,375

nervous, like, "What's about to happen here?

598

00:22:22,375 --> 00:22:23,916

This is a little scary."

599

00:22:23,916 --> 00:22:24,166

Yeah.

600

00:22:24,458 --> 00:22:27,375

So this would have been Berlin Wall or the Iron

601

00:22:27,375 --> 00:22:29,875

Curtain, you know, falls 1989, right?

602

00:22:30,041 --> 00:22:31,500

So y'all would have been in Germany for then?

603

00:22:32,291 --> 00:22:33,416

1989, yeah.

604

00:22:33,416 --> 00:22:33,833

Yeah.

605

00:22:33,833 --> 00:22:35,583

So y'all would have been in Germany for that,

606

00:22:35,583 --> 00:22:37,791

which I think Dean was at the Wall.

607

00:22:37,791 --> 00:22:38,250

Or you were at the Wall.

608

00:22:38,250 --> 00:22:39,041

We were both there.

609

00:22:39,250 --> 00:22:39,416

Oh.

610

00:22:39,416 --> 00:22:39,625

Oh.

611

00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,666

And with the other couple, Dawn and Rick Shirley

612

00:22:42,666 --> 00:22:43,583

who, most of our

613

00:22:43,583 --> 00:22:45,583

friends, we would share our new insight with

614

00:22:45,583 --> 00:22:47,208

them, our Christian friends, and they would be

615

00:22:47,208 --> 00:22:48,791

like totally not getting it.

616

00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:52,458

They were actually disappointed in us sometimes.

617

00:22:52,750 --> 00:22:55,500

And maybe they were saying things like, "Dean,

618

00:22:55,500 --> 00:22:57,458

you're asking questions Christians shouldn't

619

00:22:57,458 --> 00:22:58,083

be asking."

620

00:22:58,458 --> 00:23:00,791

And they didn't quite understand.

621

00:23:01,083 --> 00:23:02,416

And they were worried about us.

622

00:23:02,416 --> 00:23:03,083

They were thinking, "Oh,

623

00:23:03,083 --> 00:23:04,166

they're ruining their lives.

624

00:23:04,166 --> 00:23:05,666

They're about to go off the rails here."

625

00:23:06,625 --> 00:23:09,416

But this one couple, they would sit and look at

626

00:23:09,416 --> 00:23:11,666

these verses with us and they said, "You're

627

00:23:11,708 --> 00:23:12,125

right.

628

00:23:13,208 --> 00:23:14,291

Jesus does say that.

629

00:23:14,291 --> 00:23:15,750

Now what are we going to do?"

630

00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:18,375

And so the four of us, it was kind of a blessing

631

00:23:18,375 --> 00:23:21,291

to have this other couple who we were already

632

00:23:21,291 --> 00:23:24,916

good friends with, pursue this journey together.

633

00:23:25,208 --> 00:23:27,458

Like does Jesus want us to really do this?

634

00:23:28,125 --> 00:23:30,041

And so we had gone to the Berlin Wall together

635

00:23:30,041 --> 00:23:34,208

with another guy and Martin Ripple was his

636

00:23:34,208 --> 00:23:37,125

name and oh, and Jeff Hall.

637

00:23:37,708 --> 00:23:39,500

And we had a good time there.

638

00:23:39,875 --> 00:23:41,666

But it was, yeah, Dean says stark difference

639

00:23:41,666 --> 00:23:44,916

between before it had been the communist era

640

00:23:45,041 --> 00:23:48,125

and all the machine guns and concertina wire.

641

00:23:48,541 --> 00:23:50,750

And now it's like the wall's coming down.

642

00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,666

People are trying to batter it down, whether with

643

00:23:53,666 --> 00:23:57,000

their car or battering rams and shaking

644

00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:57,958

the hands through the

645

00:23:57,958 --> 00:24:00,041

wall, saying peace and brother.

646

00:24:00,791 --> 00:24:03,500

And yeah, we're like, "Wow, that really got a

647

00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:04,500

hold of our hearts too."

648

00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:05,416

I think for my husband,

649

00:24:05,416 --> 00:24:07,625

that was deeply impactful.

650

00:24:08,625 --> 00:24:09,958

There's a lot of symbology in that.

651

00:24:10,416 --> 00:24:11,583

Okay, well, let me back up a little bit.

652

00:24:12,208 --> 00:24:14,791

Just the fact that you happened to be in Berlin

653

00:24:14,791 --> 00:24:16,541

at the time that this happened is kind of

654

00:24:16,541 --> 00:24:16,750

wild.

655

00:24:16,958 --> 00:24:17,166

That was amazing.

656

00:24:17,458 --> 00:24:20,708

For the 20th century, that's one of the

657

00:24:20,708 --> 00:24:22,791

significant events that happened.

658

00:24:23,375 --> 00:24:24,583

So for you all to witness that,

659

00:24:24,583 --> 00:24:25,625

that must have been formative.

660

00:24:25,916 --> 00:24:27,541

But there's also some symbolism there.

661

00:24:28,333 --> 00:24:30,083

The other side of that wall is the enemy.

662

00:24:30,333 --> 00:24:30,625

Exactly.

663

00:24:30,958 --> 00:24:32,458

And I guess, yeah, for

664

00:24:32,458 --> 00:24:33,708

America, it absolutely was.

665

00:24:34,541 --> 00:24:36,666

And then you saw that barrier kind

666

00:24:36,666 --> 00:24:38,125

of disappear in front of your eyes.

667

00:24:38,333 --> 00:24:38,916

That must have done

668

00:24:38,916 --> 00:24:41,541

something to your thought process.

669

00:24:41,875 --> 00:24:43,500

It was definitely one another God thing.

670

00:24:43,958 --> 00:24:47,791

I remember snapping that shot of Dean on the

671

00:24:47,791 --> 00:24:50,416

front of our book and shaking hands.

672

00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:53,375

I haven't looked at this picture in a while.

673

00:24:54,041 --> 00:24:56,083

Your husband wrote a book, A Change of

674

00:24:56,083 --> 00:24:57,416

Allegiance, which we talked

675

00:24:57,416 --> 00:24:58,916

about when I interviewed him

676

00:24:58,916 --> 00:25:01,541

previously, but grasping through

677

00:25:01,541 --> 00:25:03,833

the wall and shaking hands with...

678

00:25:04,541 --> 00:25:06,000

Who was it on the other side? Do you know?

679

00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:08,500

Maybe just a German soldier?

680

00:25:09,166 --> 00:25:11,750

I think he was in uniform.

681

00:25:11,750 --> 00:25:12,541

I think he was a soldier.

682

00:25:13,708 --> 00:25:15,041

So again, that's the enemy.

683

00:25:15,416 --> 00:25:15,791

That's the enemy.

684

00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:19,375

But my husband could correct me if I'm mistaken

685

00:25:19,375 --> 00:25:21,208

on that, but I believe he was a soldier.

686

00:25:21,583 --> 00:25:24,666

And there was definitely something happening that

687

00:25:24,666 --> 00:25:26,708

wasn't just between my husband and this

688

00:25:26,708 --> 00:25:27,083

man.

689

00:25:27,083 --> 00:25:29,208

But I feel like God was trying to get a lot of

690

00:25:29,208 --> 00:25:30,583

people's attention through this.

691

00:25:31,208 --> 00:25:34,166

And we definitely came away saying, "Wow, you

692

00:25:34,166 --> 00:25:35,875

mean yesterday I could have been called

693

00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:37,291

upon to kill this man.

694

00:25:37,875 --> 00:25:39,000

And now he wants to shake

695

00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,375

my hand and be my friend."

696

00:25:41,291 --> 00:25:43,333

And the wall's coming down and we're thinking,

697

00:25:43,333 --> 00:25:45,583

"Didn't Jesus bring that wall down many,

698

00:25:45,583 --> 00:25:47,708

many years ago with his death on the cross?"

699

00:25:48,458 --> 00:25:51,000

Definitely there was something happening in our

700

00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:53,041

hearts through this little pivotal moment.

701

00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:57,000

Yeah, again, the layers of symbolism there is

702

00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:02,041

pretty heavy because how with just quick

703

00:26:03,166 --> 00:26:05,000

little things can change in

704

00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,541

the world of geopolitics, say.

705

00:26:07,958 --> 00:26:09,708

And the line gets redrawn on a map and suddenly

706

00:26:09,708 --> 00:26:11,416

who you would have had to fight last week

707

00:26:11,416 --> 00:26:14,708

is now not the enemy anymore or is an ally even.

708

00:26:15,541 --> 00:26:16,041

It's crazy.

709

00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:18,875

Which this is a bit tangential, but the guy on

710

00:26:18,875 --> 00:26:20,958

this, where Dean's shaking his hand, loved

711

00:26:20,958 --> 00:26:21,958

to know where he is today.

712

00:26:22,750 --> 00:26:23,416

Wouldn't that be something?

713

00:26:23,708 --> 00:26:25,166

That was literally going through my mind right now.

714

00:26:25,166 --> 00:26:26,458

Wouldn't you love to find him?

715

00:26:26,458 --> 00:26:28,000

Yeah, how that story ends.

716

00:26:28,541 --> 00:26:31,041

And to think, "Oh, how different though those

717

00:26:31,041 --> 00:26:33,458

stories could have ended where there maybe

718

00:26:33,458 --> 00:26:34,750

could have been a conflict and

719

00:26:34,750 --> 00:26:35,625

that would have been the enemy."

720

00:26:36,708 --> 00:26:38,791

Anyway, so that's context of

721

00:26:38,791 --> 00:26:40,250

what is going through your mind.

722

00:26:40,750 --> 00:26:42,750

You're doing a lot of studies through scripture.

723

00:26:43,083 --> 00:26:46,166

You're reanalyzing a lot of your belief systems.

724

00:26:46,625 --> 00:26:47,750

The wall has come down.

725

00:26:47,958 --> 00:26:48,750

So that's getting you

726

00:26:48,750 --> 00:26:49,750

thinking about a lot of stuff.

727

00:26:50,125 --> 00:26:52,041

The Middle East is starting to get

728

00:26:52,041 --> 00:26:53,583

kind of crazy at this point, right?

729

00:26:54,250 --> 00:26:55,916

I'm guessing you're going for it, right, Saddam

730

00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:57,208

Hussein and all of this.

731

00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:58,750

That would have been 1991, right?

732

00:26:59,333 --> 00:27:01,208

Yep, a little before that.

733

00:27:02,166 --> 00:27:06,416

Our band was shifted from our normal duties to...

734

00:27:06,416 --> 00:27:07,916

They always told us, "You're a soldier first.

735

00:27:08,166 --> 00:27:09,125

Never forget it."

736

00:27:09,416 --> 00:27:11,583

So we put the flutes and tubas down and we were

737

00:27:11,583 --> 00:27:14,416

sent to Ramstein Air Base to ship missiles

738

00:27:14,416 --> 00:27:15,125

to Iraq.

739

00:27:15,125 --> 00:27:18,500

But at that time, we four who were considering

740

00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,333

becoming conscientious objectors, we were

741

00:27:20,375 --> 00:27:24,250

just like, "We can't ship missiles to Iraq until

742

00:27:24,250 --> 00:27:27,541

we determine whether this is actually

743

00:27:27,541 --> 00:27:28,708

okay or not."

744

00:27:29,375 --> 00:27:31,500

And I say, I believe at that time we would have

745

00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:34,666

already initiated the request to become

746

00:27:34,958 --> 00:27:36,291

conscientious objectors.

747

00:27:36,875 --> 00:27:40,750

So we submitted a form and we were able to initiate

748

00:27:40,750 --> 00:27:43,083

that process, which took eight long months

749

00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:45,208

or maybe it was nine, eight or nine long months.

750

00:27:45,875 --> 00:27:46,041

Yeah.

751

00:27:46,833 --> 00:27:50,291

But during that process, did you still have to

752

00:27:50,291 --> 00:27:52,958

perform duties like packaging up missiles

753

00:27:52,958 --> 00:27:55,875

that'd be used in a manner that obviously you're

754

00:27:55,875 --> 00:27:57,166

running into convictions that says,

755

00:27:57,166 --> 00:27:58,458

"I can't do that," right?

756

00:27:58,458 --> 00:27:58,666

Yeah.

757

00:27:58,875 --> 00:28:01,541

Luckily in our country, we do provide an out for

758

00:28:01,541 --> 00:28:03,125

people with a crisis of conscience.

759

00:28:03,416 --> 00:28:05,541

Now, if they would have determined in all of

760

00:28:05,541 --> 00:28:08,250

their investigation, you have a court hearing,

761

00:28:08,250 --> 00:28:09,625

you go to a psychologist or

762

00:28:09,625 --> 00:28:11,333

psychiatrist, I forget how.

763

00:28:12,208 --> 00:28:14,541

And you have your friends who are called to

764

00:28:14,541 --> 00:28:16,000

witness about your life.

765

00:28:16,958 --> 00:28:18,375

Let's say you write a long paper

766

00:28:18,375 --> 00:28:19,833

and it's all sent to the Pentagon.

767

00:28:20,708 --> 00:28:22,750

If looking through all of that file, they would

768

00:28:22,750 --> 00:28:24,875

have determined, "I had enlisted fraudulently.

769

00:28:25,083 --> 00:28:27,166

I probably might have gone to jail."

770

00:28:28,333 --> 00:28:31,583

But if you do have a sincere crisis of

771

00:28:31,583 --> 00:28:32,500

conscience, there is

772

00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:35,208

provision for a person in that, but

773

00:28:35,208 --> 00:28:37,416

they do have to follow the protocol

774

00:28:37,416 --> 00:28:39,166

to determine whether you're sincere.

775

00:28:40,291 --> 00:28:44,083

So luckily we had a wonderful counselor who was

776

00:28:44,083 --> 00:28:45,250

able to help us with that.

777

00:28:45,458 --> 00:28:48,375

His name was Andre Gingerich Stoner, and he and

778

00:28:48,375 --> 00:28:51,500

his wife were stationed there by Mennonite

779

00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:52,750

Central Committee, I believe.

780

00:28:53,541 --> 00:28:56,041

And they were there for people like us.

781

00:28:56,500 --> 00:28:58,791

And my husband sent a letter to

782

00:28:58,791 --> 00:29:01,500

Hearald Press, who sent a letter to...

783

00:29:02,541 --> 00:29:05,541

Somehow got to one place to another until they

784

00:29:05,541 --> 00:29:07,875

put us in contact with him and his wife,

785

00:29:08,166 --> 00:29:11,708

Kathy, and they were very helpful in helping us

786

00:29:11,708 --> 00:29:14,666

know what the regulations are, what the

787

00:29:14,916 --> 00:29:18,083

laws are surrounding conscientious objector

788

00:29:18,291 --> 00:29:22,791

status, and particularly in between time where

789

00:29:23,333 --> 00:29:24,416

you feel very vulnerable.

790

00:29:25,083 --> 00:29:25,750

Well, yeah.

791

00:29:26,333 --> 00:29:27,958

Well, and that's where I want to drill into this

792

00:29:27,958 --> 00:29:31,375

a little bit, where what you were describing

793

00:29:31,458 --> 00:29:34,083

before, it wasn't like you

794

00:29:34,083 --> 00:29:35,166

were having a terrible time.

795

00:29:36,166 --> 00:29:37,500

You're doing what you enjoyed.

796

00:29:37,750 --> 00:29:38,333

You have friends.

797

00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:39,458

This is your world.

798

00:29:39,666 --> 00:29:40,791

It's part of your life.

799

00:29:41,416 --> 00:29:43,875

And I would also say, I'm sure we'll see this in

800

00:29:43,875 --> 00:29:45,875

the comments and whatever, people will

801

00:29:45,875 --> 00:29:47,791

probably be like, "Oh my, come on, you were in

802

00:29:47,791 --> 00:29:48,833

the army band, big deal.

803

00:29:49,125 --> 00:29:50,250

Just finish through with your

804

00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:52,250

enlistment and just leave like that.

805

00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,916

Why did you go through this CO process and why

806

00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:56,958

make a big to-do over this?

807

00:29:56,958 --> 00:29:58,000

It's really not a big deal.

808

00:29:58,000 --> 00:29:58,583

It's not like they were

809

00:29:58,583 --> 00:29:59,833

asking you to go kill people."

810

00:30:00,458 --> 00:30:02,000

Because at the core of

811

00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,208

it, that's the big question.

812

00:30:03,458 --> 00:30:04,666

Where Jesus says, "You have to love your enemy."

813

00:30:04,666 --> 00:30:06,750

Well you can't love someone if you shoot

814

00:30:06,791 --> 00:30:07,208

them right.

815

00:30:07,375 --> 00:30:07,875

Yeah, absolutely.

816

00:30:07,958 --> 00:30:09,791

So talk to me about that.

817

00:30:10,041 --> 00:30:11,916

Your convictions must have been pretty serious to

818

00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,125

say, "No, we're still going to go through

819

00:30:13,125 --> 00:30:13,791

with this process."

820

00:30:14,583 --> 00:30:14,791

Why?

821

00:30:15,041 --> 00:30:15,416

Yeah.

822

00:30:15,416 --> 00:30:16,416

Why rock the boat?

823

00:30:16,416 --> 00:30:18,458

I think there was something inside of my husband

824

00:30:18,458 --> 00:30:21,208

in particular that helped keep us strong that

825

00:30:21,375 --> 00:30:22,625

it's either right or wrong.

826

00:30:23,625 --> 00:30:24,541

There's no middle ground.

827

00:30:24,541 --> 00:30:27,666

If Jesus says, "Don't kill," something is very

828

00:30:27,666 --> 00:30:29,458

wrong on one side or the other that's

829

00:30:29,458 --> 00:30:33,416

just like, you know, and incidentally, soon after

830

00:30:33,416 --> 00:30:35,750

we were released as conscientious objectors,

831

00:30:36,291 --> 00:30:37,500

our unit was shipped to Iraq.

832

00:30:38,041 --> 00:30:40,291

So we went from shipping missiles to I don't know

833

00:30:40,291 --> 00:30:42,708

what they did there, but it's all part

834

00:30:42,708 --> 00:30:44,916

of the support effort for the war.

835

00:30:45,333 --> 00:30:47,666

And I was so thankful I didn't have to

836

00:30:47,666 --> 00:30:48,708

participate in that

837

00:30:48,708 --> 00:30:50,625

bloodshed, which, you know, again,

838

00:30:51,916 --> 00:30:53,916

maybe not everyone's going to see that, but with

839

00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:56,083

the, you know, seeing what Jesus has

840

00:30:56,083 --> 00:30:58,125

shown me, you know, was something

841

00:30:58,125 --> 00:30:59,791

I needed to be faithful and just...

842

00:31:00,333 --> 00:31:01,958

And again, my husband helped us, I think.

843

00:31:03,208 --> 00:31:05,458

Having the other couple there, Dawn and Rick

844

00:31:05,458 --> 00:31:07,666

Shirley, that just strengthened us to have,

845

00:31:07,666 --> 00:31:09,208

you know, fellow people with us

846

00:31:09,208 --> 00:31:11,250

saying, "No, we need to stand strong.

847

00:31:11,250 --> 00:31:13,083

We need to be willing to go to jail for this."

848

00:31:13,791 --> 00:31:15,625

Because yeah, there's no middle ground.

849

00:31:16,208 --> 00:31:17,708

It's either right or it's wrong.

850

00:31:18,125 --> 00:31:18,416

And so...

851

00:31:18,750 --> 00:31:21,416

And so you would have come to the position that

852

00:31:21,416 --> 00:31:25,333

being part of the US military industrial

853

00:31:25,416 --> 00:31:28,666

complex, whatever you want to call it, in any way

854

00:31:28,666 --> 00:31:29,750

would have been considered...

855

00:31:30,041 --> 00:31:31,791

I just can't do that.

856

00:31:32,250 --> 00:31:36,041

Even though your role wasn't a combat role, at

857

00:31:36,041 --> 00:31:37,916

least when you started the paperwork.

858

00:31:38,208 --> 00:31:39,416

Yeah, at least when you started the paperwork.

859

00:31:39,416 --> 00:31:40,666

Now, maybe that would have changed later.

860

00:31:42,291 --> 00:31:43,416

Am I getting that about right?

861

00:31:43,416 --> 00:31:44,416

Well, and here's the thing.

862

00:31:44,416 --> 00:31:46,333

It's like, I realize there might be other people

863

00:31:46,333 --> 00:31:49,250

out there who don't agree with Jesus'

864

00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:51,875

teachings or whatever, but if you are someone who

865

00:31:51,875 --> 00:31:54,500

does see that, I would find everything

866

00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:57,750

in my power to both be a law abiding citizen, but

867

00:31:57,750 --> 00:31:59,750

hopefully not have to help in the war

868

00:31:59,750 --> 00:32:00,166

effort.

869

00:32:00,250 --> 00:32:01,875

Maybe help as a medic.

870

00:32:01,875 --> 00:32:04,875

Like, I do want to show that we're also being

871

00:32:04,875 --> 00:32:07,500

willing to lay our lives down and serve our

872

00:32:07,500 --> 00:32:10,416

time where maybe we're asked, maybe we're needed

873

00:32:10,416 --> 00:32:13,541

for a draft or whatever as Christians.

874

00:32:13,916 --> 00:32:17,291

But to do the most we can to say, "I'm opposed to

875

00:32:17,291 --> 00:32:21,208

the bloodshed and Jesus says not to kill.

876

00:32:21,958 --> 00:32:24,375

I'd be willing to die for my faith, but I also

877

00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:27,625

want to, the best of my ability, also

878

00:32:27,708 --> 00:32:30,333

be willing to do my time, so to

879

00:32:30,333 --> 00:32:32,250

speak, or some other support role."

880

00:32:32,583 --> 00:32:34,958

So it's like, yeah, I don't want to have to

881

00:32:34,958 --> 00:32:37,041

support the greater killing institution.

882

00:32:37,541 --> 00:32:41,000

I realize I'm of a different kingdom, but I think

883

00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,666

there's something about being respectful

884

00:32:43,666 --> 00:32:46,916

and being willing to serve our time as

885

00:32:46,916 --> 00:32:48,250

Anabaptists, not to just live

886

00:32:48,250 --> 00:32:49,333

back and enjoy the liberties

887

00:32:49,333 --> 00:32:51,958

without it ever costing us anything.

888

00:32:54,041 --> 00:32:58,416

I think that is an important piece because I've

889

00:32:58,416 --> 00:33:01,291

heard different friends and people say,

890

00:33:01,291 --> 00:33:03,166

"Well, it's really easy for you to sit here in

891

00:33:03,166 --> 00:33:06,083

your comfortable, safe country and criticize

892

00:33:06,750 --> 00:33:09,333

the military, and I could never be a part of it."

893

00:33:10,708 --> 00:33:13,916

And to an extent, I do see what they're saying,

894

00:33:14,833 --> 00:33:18,208

but I think your point there is also really

895

00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:18,916

important.

896

00:33:19,041 --> 00:33:22,083

There are other ways we can serve our

897

00:33:22,083 --> 00:33:23,666

communities, the people

898

00:33:23,666 --> 00:33:26,875

around us that are obviously not

899

00:33:26,875 --> 00:33:30,750

part of the war, things like that.

900

00:33:32,166 --> 00:33:33,500

I think that's an important piece.

901

00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:34,875

And so that would have been some of what you all

902

00:33:34,875 --> 00:33:36,375

were wrestling with as well, right?

903

00:33:36,375 --> 00:33:38,250

We're trying to figure our way through on that.

904

00:33:39,083 --> 00:33:43,375

What's the right way to be respectful and show

905

00:33:43,375 --> 00:33:48,041

good conscience, but also know that we

906

00:33:48,083 --> 00:33:48,958

have to serve Christ

907

00:33:48,958 --> 00:33:52,125

first and He has a better way.

908

00:33:53,208 --> 00:33:58,541

And you came to the belief that Christ would not

909

00:33:58,541 --> 00:34:00,833

have packaged missiles for Iraq to be

910

00:34:00,833 --> 00:34:04,291

used against other humans, basically, to get it

911

00:34:04,291 --> 00:34:06,916

really real and to your specific situation.

912

00:34:07,166 --> 00:34:07,375

Absolutely.

913

00:34:07,791 --> 00:34:09,958

My husband always says, "Jesus gave us what He

914

00:34:09,958 --> 00:34:12,291

feels is the blueprint for humanity."

915

00:34:13,166 --> 00:34:14,416

It's just a great plan.

916

00:34:14,875 --> 00:34:16,083

It promotes life.

917

00:34:16,791 --> 00:34:18,291

It values every human being.

918

00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:21,041

It doesn't need to be on the shifting stands of

919

00:34:21,041 --> 00:34:26,625

politics or greed or lines in the sand

920

00:34:26,625 --> 00:34:31,208

like we're all human and having to be divided by

921

00:34:31,208 --> 00:34:33,875

cultures or nationalities is sad.

922

00:34:35,250 --> 00:34:38,208

So you go through this CO process, conscientious

923

00:34:38,208 --> 00:34:40,208

objecter process, which I want to put

924

00:34:40,208 --> 00:34:42,666

an aside in here and say it's pretty phenomenal

925

00:34:42,666 --> 00:34:45,000

that the American government allows for that.

926

00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:45,541

It really is.

927

00:34:46,125 --> 00:34:47,541

It used to not, by the way.

928

00:34:48,125 --> 00:34:49,833

During World War I, there was a lot

929

00:34:49,833 --> 00:34:51,416

of Mennonites,/Amish, things like that.

930

00:34:51,416 --> 00:34:52,625

that got called up in the draft.

931

00:34:53,291 --> 00:34:54,583

"We can't kill."

932

00:34:55,041 --> 00:34:55,541

It's against...

933

00:34:55,916 --> 00:34:57,083

Well, there was no provision for that.

934

00:34:57,083 --> 00:34:59,291

I mean, they were horribly treated in many cases.

935

00:34:59,791 --> 00:35:01,791

And then when World War II came, a lot of that

936

00:35:01,791 --> 00:35:03,583

changed, which I think we can all be

937

00:35:03,666 --> 00:35:04,708

very thankful for that.

938

00:35:04,916 --> 00:35:05,166

Yes, very.

939

00:35:05,666 --> 00:35:08,416

It's part of why my dad was so grateful for some

940

00:35:08,416 --> 00:35:10,291

things we have in America that it really

941

00:35:10,416 --> 00:35:12,208

are a great blessing.

942

00:35:12,833 --> 00:35:14,125

So you go through that process.

943

00:35:14,416 --> 00:35:15,583

I mean, apparently they

944

00:35:15,583 --> 00:35:17,916

accepted your papers and let you go.

945

00:35:17,916 --> 00:35:18,166

Yes, they did.

946

00:35:18,166 --> 00:35:19,583

In fact, all four of us.

947

00:35:20,125 --> 00:35:21,291

And my husband always tells the

948

00:35:21,291 --> 00:35:22,916

story because it was an amazing story.

949

00:35:23,166 --> 00:35:26,000

But so like the man who had done our court trial,

950

00:35:26,750 --> 00:35:28,875

he finally shows up at the man hall

951

00:35:29,041 --> 00:35:32,125

and we're called up to a small little office and

952

00:35:32,125 --> 00:35:35,916

we come to attention and salute and he

953

00:35:35,916 --> 00:35:38,166

puts us at ease and... which is

954

00:35:38,166 --> 00:35:40,375

a military... like you relax.

955

00:35:41,166 --> 00:35:45,041

And we saw the four manila envelopes sitting on

956

00:35:45,041 --> 00:35:49,041

the desk and he says, "Well, I have the

957

00:35:49,041 --> 00:35:50,333

results of your conscientious

958

00:35:50,333 --> 00:35:53,333

objector appeals or whatever."

959

00:35:55,541 --> 00:35:58,375

But before I tell you the results, I'd just like

960

00:35:58,375 --> 00:36:00,583

to give you one more chance to...

961

00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,666

You guys are good kids, like basically.

962

00:36:04,666 --> 00:36:05,500

I don't know if he called us.

963

00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:06,208

You're good soldiers.

964

00:36:07,791 --> 00:36:09,083

Everyone's spoken well of you.

965

00:36:10,166 --> 00:36:11,250

We're really appreciated here.

966

00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:12,416

It's not too late.

967

00:36:12,750 --> 00:36:15,791

We can just sort of pretend this never happened.

968

00:36:16,208 --> 00:36:18,875

We'll just put these away and you can just go on

969

00:36:18,875 --> 00:36:21,875

doing what you love doing and no one's

970

00:36:21,875 --> 00:36:22,916

going to worry about it.

971

00:36:23,250 --> 00:36:24,708

I just want to give you that offer.

972

00:36:24,708 --> 00:36:26,541

And we all just sort of looked at each other and

973

00:36:26,541 --> 00:36:28,166

Dean spoke for all of us and said, "No,

974

00:36:28,166 --> 00:36:31,416

sir, we feel very strongly regardless of the

975

00:36:31,416 --> 00:36:34,000

consequences that we need to proceed, but

976

00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:34,416

thank you."

977

00:36:36,083 --> 00:36:38,083

So then he let us know, "Well, I'll let you know

978

00:36:38,083 --> 00:36:40,916

you've all been approved for conscientious

979

00:36:41,250 --> 00:36:43,833

objector status with honorable discharges," which

980

00:36:43,833 --> 00:36:47,541

we were just so elated and relieved.

981

00:36:48,458 --> 00:36:50,208

But then he let us know, he's like, "But wait,"

982

00:36:50,458 --> 00:36:52,000

he's like, "There's something I need to tell

983

00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:52,333

you."

984

00:36:52,625 --> 00:36:56,708

He sort of like whispering and he said, "I too

985

00:36:56,708 --> 00:36:59,000

now am leaving the army for the very same

986

00:36:59,000 --> 00:36:59,625

reasons."

987

00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,916

And we're like, "Wow."

988

00:37:03,500 --> 00:37:06,416

We just wanted to sit there and talk for hours,

989

00:37:06,416 --> 00:37:10,000

but the meeting ended and he had to

990

00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:10,500

let us go.

991

00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,791

He was probably, I wonder if he was nervous about

992

00:37:13,791 --> 00:37:17,166

letting us know he agreed with us and

993

00:37:17,250 --> 00:37:20,125

that he was doing the same thing we were doing.

994

00:37:20,708 --> 00:37:23,333

And yeah, it was one of those moments of just,

995

00:37:23,333 --> 00:37:25,750

"Wow, Lord, this is amazing."

996

00:37:26,166 --> 00:37:29,000

Okay, I have to ask, where did he end up?

997

00:37:29,375 --> 00:37:30,083

How does that story end up?

998

00:37:30,125 --> 00:37:32,541

We went to try and find him one day because we

999

00:37:32,541 --> 00:37:34,375

knew just what base he was living on, but

00:37:34,375 --> 00:37:34,666

we couldn't find him.

00:37:34,666 --> 00:37:35,333

Do you have a name?

00:37:35,708 --> 00:37:37,083

I don't even remember.

00:37:37,083 --> 00:37:38,166

I'm sure the name is in the file.

00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:39,541

I could go back and look at the file.

00:37:39,541 --> 00:37:41,041

He could try to pull your file, your military

00:37:41,041 --> 00:37:42,375

file and track him down.

00:37:42,375 --> 00:37:43,416

Amazing to find him.

00:37:43,416 --> 00:37:44,375

It would be so amazing.

00:37:45,458 --> 00:37:45,625

Wow.

00:37:45,625 --> 00:37:45,833

Yeah.

00:37:45,875 --> 00:37:47,750

Well, maybe he's listening to this and he can

00:37:47,750 --> 00:37:49,166

send us an email or something.

00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:51,416

Oh, wouldn't that be amazing? I would love to know how that...

00:37:51,958 --> 00:37:53,666

...what changed his mind?

00:37:54,708 --> 00:37:56,416

Where was his story?

00:37:56,750 --> 00:37:56,833

What happened there?

00:37:56,833 --> 00:37:58,958

I would love to know that story.

00:37:59,708 --> 00:38:04,666

So that was just a gift from God to encourage us

00:38:04,666 --> 00:38:06,916

that not only are you not weird, you're

00:38:06,916 --> 00:38:07,458

not alone.

00:38:10,583 --> 00:38:11,291

We don't know.

00:38:11,291 --> 00:38:13,958

Did he already have something in his heart before

00:38:13,958 --> 00:38:15,916

he spoke with us or did this happen

00:38:15,916 --> 00:38:18,208

after hearing each four of our testimony?

00:38:18,208 --> 00:38:19,666

He was the one who tried us in court.

00:38:20,875 --> 00:38:22,375

He's the one that heard all the witnesses.

00:38:24,750 --> 00:38:29,291

So yeah, I would love to know that story someday.

00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:30,333

Lord willing maybe.

00:38:30,958 --> 00:38:32,500

Man, that's really something though.

00:38:32,958 --> 00:38:37,416

So okay, so you get your honorable discharge and

00:38:37,416 --> 00:38:41,083

now that had to have felt unsettling because

00:38:41,083 --> 00:38:43,875

it's like you have your life, this is how things

00:38:43,875 --> 00:38:46,250

work, we're comfortable here and now

00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:48,458

it's like, what do we do now?

00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,125

So talk to me about that process of trying to get

00:38:51,125 --> 00:38:53,000

back on your feet, so to speak, trying

00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,416

to find, hey, where do we go to church now?

00:38:55,708 --> 00:38:56,541

Where do we live now?

00:38:57,916 --> 00:38:59,750

That whole process, I'm sure it's a long story

00:38:59,750 --> 00:39:00,833

and I'm sure there's lots of pieces,

00:39:01,083 --> 00:39:03,166

but I like to touch on that a little bit because

00:39:03,166 --> 00:39:05,458

I know there are people that listen to this

00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:07,791

podcast that are in that process right now.

00:39:07,791 --> 00:39:10,083

Where they're like, hey, they've changed some

00:39:10,083 --> 00:39:12,916

things of how they view scripture or they're

00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:14,833

getting serious about their faith and they don't

00:39:14,833 --> 00:39:16,291

want to be just passive about it.

00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:18,166

Where do I go to church now?

00:39:18,875 --> 00:39:20,583

Where's my church community?

00:39:21,166 --> 00:39:21,916

That's a hard one.

00:39:22,416 --> 00:39:24,291

So what happened then?

00:39:24,583 --> 00:39:25,458

What was your journey?

00:39:26,041 --> 00:39:27,958

Probably one of the hardest parts of our journey

00:39:27,958 --> 00:39:30,083

because we first went to our pastor

00:39:31,333 --> 00:39:34,375

and asked him about these things and he seemed

00:39:34,375 --> 00:39:37,083

extremely... I don't know how we came across

00:39:37,083 --> 00:39:39,375

because in my heart, I didn't want to come, I was

00:39:39,375 --> 00:39:41,583

really praying he was going to enlighten

00:39:41,583 --> 00:39:44,875

us because I loved my job, I loved living in

00:39:44,875 --> 00:39:47,041

Germany, I just didn't want to leave.

00:39:48,125 --> 00:39:51,000

I respect so many people who are Christians,

00:39:51,333 --> 00:39:53,625

they're believers, I know they're sincere,

00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:55,250

but they don't see these things.

00:39:55,625 --> 00:39:57,041

So surely we must be wrong.

00:39:57,541 --> 00:39:59,375

I thought maybe he'd enlighten the path a little

00:39:59,375 --> 00:40:01,708

better so we could see clearly how

00:40:01,708 --> 00:40:02,750

it all works together.

00:40:04,166 --> 00:40:07,250

But he was more defensive in saying, you're not

00:40:07,250 --> 00:40:08,750

going to persuade me, you're not going

00:40:08,750 --> 00:40:09,625

to change my mind.

00:40:09,625 --> 00:40:12,083

And then he ended by saying, perhaps you'd be more

00:40:12,083 --> 00:40:13,416

comfortable worshiping elsewhere.

00:40:13,958 --> 00:40:16,125

So that felt so hard.

00:40:16,125 --> 00:40:17,958

That was really, really painful.

00:40:19,250 --> 00:40:23,416

But we ended up, we had had a local bookstore

00:40:23,416 --> 00:40:25,708

that had gone out of business and that man

00:40:25,708 --> 00:40:29,916

had bought lots of radical books, like by lots of

00:40:29,916 --> 00:40:32,791

Mennonites, he had Foxe's Book of Martyrs,

00:40:32,875 --> 00:40:36,041

Martyrs Mirror, he had lots of Anabaptist books

00:40:36,041 --> 00:40:40,625

and lots of people like Rich, who was

00:40:40,625 --> 00:40:42,416

it, the Rich Christians in the Age of Hunger?

00:40:43,250 --> 00:40:43,708

What's his name?

00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:44,125

I forget.

00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:45,208

I don't know.

00:40:45,375 --> 00:40:46,083

That's before my time.

00:40:46,750 --> 00:40:49,625

All these amazing books that make you think about your

00:40:49,625 --> 00:40:52,833

real life application and Jesus's teachings

00:40:52,833 --> 00:40:55,666

and how are we really lining up with those?

00:40:55,666 --> 00:40:57,083

And they were just good food

00:40:57,083 --> 00:40:58,666

for thought, very challenging.

00:40:59,708 --> 00:41:05,250

And so, okay, he sold his whole inventory to the

00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:06,375

local Christian bookstore.

00:41:07,208 --> 00:41:09,000

And we went in and feasted.

00:41:09,375 --> 00:41:11,166

We bought so many books.

00:41:11,541 --> 00:41:13,875

And then we start going to the

00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:15,875

owner and said, we are so excited.

00:41:16,041 --> 00:41:16,916

And he was like, wait a minute,

00:41:17,291 --> 00:41:18,625

I don't agree with any of that.

00:41:19,166 --> 00:41:21,916

And he shoved a video in our hands about Romans

00:41:21,916 --> 00:41:24,375

13 and hoping we would understand the way

00:41:24,416 --> 00:41:24,791

better.

00:41:24,791 --> 00:41:28,291

But Romans 13, when I see it now in the entire

00:41:28,291 --> 00:41:31,291

kingdom understanding, it does make perfect

00:41:31,416 --> 00:41:33,916

sense, but I still come out on the same place.

00:41:34,208 --> 00:41:35,916

It's no longer this, oh, how does

00:41:35,916 --> 00:41:38,000

that fit with, it makes perfect sense.

00:41:38,833 --> 00:41:41,458

Or what.. our calling in is in a different kingdom.

00:41:41,708 --> 00:41:43,208

But you definitely had, it sounds like you

00:41:43,208 --> 00:41:45,458

definitely had people along this process that

00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:46,791

were trying to dissuade you.

00:41:46,791 --> 00:41:46,958

Oh, yes.

00:41:46,958 --> 00:41:48,666

It was like, hey, you're reading that wrong.

00:41:48,833 --> 00:41:50,083

You're going off the tracks.

00:41:50,750 --> 00:41:53,833

Yeah. And definitely our friends and family, yes, they

00:41:53,833 --> 00:41:55,000

were concerned about us.

00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,000

They cared about us.

00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,625

They thought we were going off the deep end.

00:41:57,625 --> 00:41:58,375

Yeah, of course.

00:41:58,375 --> 00:42:01,000

And it's kind of like, just don't rock the boat.

00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:02,041

Yeah, just be normal.

00:42:02,041 --> 00:42:03,625

That's kind of where I was like, well, I mean,

00:42:03,625 --> 00:42:05,041

you could just stay in it a little longer,

00:42:05,041 --> 00:42:06,041

you know, and finish down your

00:42:06,041 --> 00:42:07,333

enlistment and just let it go.

00:42:07,666 --> 00:42:10,916

But I'm glad you explained that

00:42:10,916 --> 00:42:12,833

because I'm sure a lot of people will say

00:42:12,833 --> 00:42:14,500

that and, or, you know,

00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:15,500

leave a comment or whatever.

00:42:15,916 --> 00:42:18,958

But there's a piece here where I think it is

00:42:18,958 --> 00:42:21,583

important if, you know, you're reading

00:42:21,583 --> 00:42:24,666

scripture say, and you truly believe

00:42:24,666 --> 00:42:27,000

this is what Christ wants you to do.

00:42:28,375 --> 00:42:29,833

It seems like what the case

00:42:29,833 --> 00:42:31,958

you're making is, you need to do it.

00:42:31,958 --> 00:42:33,166

Even if people are like, that's

00:42:33,166 --> 00:42:34,666

crazy, you really shouldn't do that.

00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:35,208

Yeah.

00:42:35,541 --> 00:42:36,416

And there were moments you

00:42:36,416 --> 00:42:37,750

wondered if we were crazy.

00:42:37,750 --> 00:42:38,958

And we did wonder if we should,

00:42:38,958 --> 00:42:40,875

you know, take a few steps back.

00:42:41,291 --> 00:42:42,166

But what was amazing...

00:42:42,416 --> 00:42:44,666

God providing all these books, we're reading the

00:42:44,666 --> 00:42:46,666

early church and we're reading.

00:42:46,666 --> 00:42:48,500

I remember finding David Bercot's book.

00:42:48,833 --> 00:42:49,625

Will the Real Heretics.

00:42:50,083 --> 00:42:50,291

Yes.

00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:52,250

I remember the moment I picked it up,

00:42:52,250 --> 00:42:53,875

Will the Real Heretics Please Stand Up.

00:42:53,875 --> 00:42:54,916

I turn over, I read the back.

00:42:55,583 --> 00:42:56,416

I called Dean over.

00:42:56,416 --> 00:42:57,458

I'm like, come here.

00:42:57,458 --> 00:42:58,416

You've got to hear this.

00:42:58,416 --> 00:42:58,833

You're kidding.

00:42:59,083 --> 00:43:01,208

I remember chapters like, Is Right and Wrong a

00:43:01,208 --> 00:43:03,208

Matter of Culture? or Was There a Faith Once

00:43:03,208 --> 00:43:05,708

For All Delivered, basically is what...

00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,125

and then hearing about the early church who

00:43:08,250 --> 00:43:10,250

would have walked and talked with the apostles.

00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:12,875

And they would have taken the words of Christ

00:43:12,875 --> 00:43:15,916

like a child, like if he says, love your enemies,

00:43:16,250 --> 00:43:17,083

you should love your enemies.

00:43:17,333 --> 00:43:21,125

If he says that you should not divorce or even

00:43:21,125 --> 00:43:22,958

worse divorce and remarry, then we should

00:43:23,500 --> 00:43:24,916

try everything not to.

00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:27,708

And you know, don't sue your brother and even go

00:43:27,708 --> 00:43:30,083

the extra mile and don't just love your

00:43:30,083 --> 00:43:31,333

brother but love your enemy.

00:43:32,250 --> 00:43:34,375

You know that there's power in loving your enemy

00:43:34,375 --> 00:43:36,208

so you'd be children of your

00:43:36,375 --> 00:43:37,000

father in heaven.

00:43:37,875 --> 00:43:41,708

And so we found our greatest, our greatest

00:43:41,708 --> 00:43:44,166

fellowship was with people who had been dead

00:43:44,166 --> 00:43:47,000

for hundreds of years, except

00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,500

finding David Bercot's book.

00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:50,375

It was like, and then some of these modern

00:43:50,375 --> 00:43:52,750

Anabaptist writers from all different

00:43:52,791 --> 00:43:54,625

stripes from very liberal to very conservative.

00:43:55,333 --> 00:43:58,166

I'm so confused because this is way before the

00:43:58,166 --> 00:44:00,541

days of like ebooks and audiobooks and

00:44:00,541 --> 00:44:00,875

stuff.

00:44:00,875 --> 00:44:04,416

So like physically that David Bercot's book had

00:44:04,416 --> 00:44:05,416

to get over there somehow.

00:44:05,708 --> 00:44:07,375

And then you, it's the randomness of...

00:44:07,625 --> 00:44:08,583

Paul Pavao, that was his name.

00:44:08,833 --> 00:44:09,208

Oh my.

00:44:09,208 --> 00:44:10,125

He was the one, he had

00:44:10,125 --> 00:44:11,375

gone to our Baptist church.

00:44:11,375 --> 00:44:12,458

He had been in the Air Force.

00:44:13,583 --> 00:44:16,166

And his bookstore had been in a basement.

00:44:16,166 --> 00:44:17,250

I guess it didn't do too well.

00:44:18,041 --> 00:44:18,666

I don't know.

00:44:18,666 --> 00:44:21,125

When he left, he sold everything to the local,

00:44:21,125 --> 00:44:23,708

all of his inventory went to that local Christian

00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:24,125

bookstore.

00:44:24,125 --> 00:44:26,041

But I felt like it was so providential, like the

00:44:26,041 --> 00:44:27,791

Lord feeding us manna in the wilderness.

00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:28,916

That's wild.

00:44:29,291 --> 00:44:29,541

Such a blessing.

00:44:30,125 --> 00:44:30,416

Yeah.

00:44:30,416 --> 00:44:32,625

Because like we, of course, interviewed David a

00:44:32,625 --> 00:44:33,791

number of times, you know, on this.

00:44:35,125 --> 00:44:37,375

Every time I'm with him, I continue to be amazed

00:44:37,375 --> 00:44:40,125

how far that book went around the world.

00:44:40,416 --> 00:44:44,541

And like how it does feel, you all were on

00:44:44,541 --> 00:44:47,166

an interesting journey that was, I'm

00:44:47,166 --> 00:44:50,541

sure new, fresh, overwhelming, confusing, you

00:44:50,541 --> 00:44:53,541

know, and trying to find your way through.

00:44:53,541 --> 00:44:54,583

And collecting some resources

00:44:54,583 --> 00:44:55,916

along the way that really helped you.

00:44:56,125 --> 00:44:57,541

I think that's an important piece too.

00:44:57,750 --> 00:44:59,250

Because it'd be hard to probably

00:44:59,250 --> 00:45:01,041

just stick with this on your own.

00:45:01,041 --> 00:45:02,333

It would have.

00:45:02,375 --> 00:45:05,916

That was definitely a major component.

00:45:07,208 --> 00:45:09,083

And we just thought, okay, as soon as we get out,

00:45:09,083 --> 00:45:10,208

we've got to meet David Bercot.

00:45:10,458 --> 00:45:11,166

We got to go find him.

00:45:11,166 --> 00:45:12,291

That's what we called him.

00:45:12,291 --> 00:45:13,166

Then when we met him, we found

00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:15,250

out why he prefers to pronounce it

00:45:15,250 --> 00:45:15,458

(Bur-soh).

00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:17,916

But yeah, it was just like,

00:45:17,916 --> 00:45:19,375

God, we were really scared.

00:45:19,583 --> 00:45:21,541

I remember we were very ignorant too.

00:45:21,541 --> 00:45:22,375

We did not know.

00:45:23,458 --> 00:45:24,625

So like we're reading our Bibles

00:45:24,625 --> 00:45:26,250

and it wasn't just non-resistance.

00:45:26,458 --> 00:45:27,916

I'm finding where it says that

00:45:27,916 --> 00:45:29,333

a woman should cover her head.

00:45:30,083 --> 00:45:32,625

I don't understand everything, but it seems like

00:45:32,625 --> 00:45:34,583

even at that time, maybe we had found

00:45:34,583 --> 00:45:36,333

a book called Demons in the Church.

00:45:36,333 --> 00:45:38,750

They've now changed it to Sunset of the Western

00:45:38,750 --> 00:45:40,250

Church or something like that.

00:45:40,916 --> 00:45:43,833

And that book addressed the head covering and as

00:45:43,833 --> 00:45:46,000

a protection from the spiritual, like

00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,833

the wicked hosts in high places.

00:45:48,416 --> 00:45:49,208

That's the way I remember it.

00:45:49,208 --> 00:45:50,000

It's been many years.

00:45:50,916 --> 00:45:53,750

But initially, I just saw that verse and I was

00:45:53,750 --> 00:45:56,041

like, Lord, I told you I want to do everything

00:45:56,041 --> 00:45:56,583

I see.

00:45:57,291 --> 00:46:00,875

So I don't remember whether I'd seen anything

00:46:00,875 --> 00:46:02,375

else in the world about that.

00:46:02,750 --> 00:46:03,958

I didn't know about Amish.

00:46:03,958 --> 00:46:05,125

I mean, I must have known about

00:46:05,125 --> 00:46:08,416

them, but I was particularly ignorant.

00:46:08,708 --> 00:46:10,583

My husband may not have been quite so ignorant,

00:46:10,583 --> 00:46:13,333

but really knowing about Amish and Mennonites

00:46:13,333 --> 00:46:16,041

and their testimony or their witness of faith or

00:46:16,041 --> 00:46:18,125

didn't really know anything in the world

00:46:18,125 --> 00:46:18,541

like that.

00:46:18,708 --> 00:46:22,000

So I read the Bible and so before we pray, I go

00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:23,625

run to the kitchen and get, I always

00:46:23,625 --> 00:46:24,750

say my ducky dish towel.

00:46:24,875 --> 00:46:26,958

Back then in the 80s, we had duckies and ribbons,

00:46:27,416 --> 00:46:29,666

little checkers, so tacky.

00:46:30,166 --> 00:46:32,583

And I would put that on my head and I'd tease.

00:46:32,916 --> 00:46:35,333

I look back and sometimes I'd be in our, like we

00:46:35,333 --> 00:46:38,208

found a small group to worship with and

00:46:38,875 --> 00:46:41,375

I'd have my shorts on and go get my dish towel.

00:46:41,375 --> 00:46:43,541

Didn't understand like modesty and what that

00:46:43,541 --> 00:46:45,333

looked like or, you know,

00:46:45,708 --> 00:46:46,666

application, a practical

00:46:46,666 --> 00:46:50,625

application or even differences in God's desire

00:46:50,625 --> 00:46:52,916

for difference in women and women dress.

00:46:53,208 --> 00:46:55,583

And you know, like that's something that's in our

00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:57,208

Bible, but I know it's a sensitive

00:46:57,208 --> 00:46:59,833

topic, especially in today's world.

00:46:59,833 --> 00:47:02,333

And it's not something I would say, okay, people

00:47:02,333 --> 00:47:03,541

are going to hell if they don't get

00:47:03,541 --> 00:47:05,875

this, but there is something to be studied and

00:47:05,875 --> 00:47:08,250

seek to understand, What's God's heart?

00:47:08,750 --> 00:47:09,958

If a man dresses like a

00:47:09,958 --> 00:47:11,125

woman, it's an abomination.

00:47:11,708 --> 00:47:13,375

Or a woman dresses like a man.

00:47:13,708 --> 00:47:16,166

It's not that we want to condemn people, but we

00:47:16,166 --> 00:47:17,583

want to know what is God's heart.

00:47:17,583 --> 00:47:21,000

So that was just the head covering thing was one

00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,750

of many things that we're like, okay,

00:47:23,750 --> 00:47:24,458

we should do this.

00:47:24,708 --> 00:47:27,208

But we were like, we'll never find anyone in the

00:47:27,208 --> 00:47:29,791

world who agrees with these things.

00:47:30,166 --> 00:47:32,541

But we went to meet David Bercot, or Dean did.

00:47:32,833 --> 00:47:35,833

I was working when we got out of the army and he

00:47:35,833 --> 00:47:37,625

went and met him and David was like,

00:47:38,333 --> 00:47:40,000

you know, we're starting a church and guess who

00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,250

he's starting a church with?

00:47:41,541 --> 00:47:43,250

Paul Pavao, the man who sold

00:47:43,250 --> 00:47:44,708

out the Christian bookstores.

00:47:44,958 --> 00:47:47,416

So Paul moved in, he had gotten out into

00:47:47,416 --> 00:47:50,375

California, which I believe was his home state.

00:47:51,250 --> 00:47:54,375

He and his wife, Lorie, they had no children yet.

00:47:54,375 --> 00:47:56,583

They moved to Texas and we all converged on the

00:47:56,583 --> 00:47:59,541

scene with a few others and started Tyler

00:47:59,541 --> 00:48:00,833

Early Christian Fellowship.

00:48:03,208 --> 00:48:03,416

Wow.

00:48:03,833 --> 00:48:06,250

So yeah, there's, so you ended up back in Texas

00:48:06,250 --> 00:48:08,083

then after, after Germany, you get out

00:48:08,083 --> 00:48:08,625

of the army.

00:48:08,625 --> 00:48:10,583

When you get of the army, you're technically sent

00:48:10,583 --> 00:48:12,458

back to the army to your home

00:48:12,458 --> 00:48:12,833

state.

00:48:13,416 --> 00:48:15,666

You always have a home state where you join.

00:48:16,083 --> 00:48:17,583

And even though I joined from Germany, my home

00:48:17,583 --> 00:48:19,916

state was still considered Texas.

00:48:21,458 --> 00:48:22,333

So we were both sent back there.

00:48:22,708 --> 00:48:24,083

That makes more sense because I kind of wondered

00:48:24,083 --> 00:48:25,916

like, how did you end up in Texas then?

00:48:26,375 --> 00:48:28,875

Um, so you end up in Texas and that's, and that's

00:48:28,875 --> 00:48:31,416

probably, if I'm getting this right,

00:48:32,625 --> 00:48:37,333

part of a long, probably a slow circuitous, maybe

00:48:37,333 --> 00:48:39,291

a bit confusing sometimes, process of

00:48:39,333 --> 00:48:42,916

just learning and learning and learning and,

00:48:42,916 --> 00:48:47,041

trying to parse out how do we do

00:48:47,041 --> 00:48:48,541

this thing called Christianity?

00:48:49,041 --> 00:48:50,916

You know, how are we supposed to live?

00:48:51,375 --> 00:48:52,958

Um, yeah.

00:48:52,958 --> 00:48:54,125

Is there more you want to say on that?

00:48:54,125 --> 00:48:56,458

Like I think maybe just to add a bit more to

00:48:56,458 --> 00:48:59,875

that, I think the tendency is easy to have

00:48:59,875 --> 00:49:02,166

when someone comes to the faith or whatever

00:49:02,166 --> 00:49:03,333

that waboom, they're just

00:49:03,333 --> 00:49:04,125

going to get everything.

00:49:05,083 --> 00:49:07,625

And it seems like the reality is it's years often

00:49:07,625 --> 00:49:10,208

of processing through what does Christ

00:49:10,208 --> 00:49:11,208

want me to do?

00:49:11,208 --> 00:49:11,875

How should I live?

00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:13,916

You know, how does this affect my

00:49:13,916 --> 00:49:15,291

day to day and all of those things?

00:49:15,541 --> 00:49:15,750

Yeah.

00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:16,458

Speak on that issue.

00:49:16,833 --> 00:49:20,583

Still in that process, I'm still trying to learn

00:49:20,583 --> 00:49:22,416

how to say it better or trying to learn

00:49:23,041 --> 00:49:23,875

what the right way is.

00:49:24,083 --> 00:49:27,041

What are the non-negotiables and how can I be

00:49:27,041 --> 00:49:30,291

gracious to everyone but also have salt

00:49:30,291 --> 00:49:30,916

within myself.

00:49:31,291 --> 00:49:33,750

But at the end of the day, like Jesus said, peace

00:49:33,750 --> 00:49:36,458

with one another and I'm a people pleaser

00:49:36,458 --> 00:49:39,375

by nature and I like to, you know,

00:49:39,375 --> 00:49:41,666

gather people together and be on a team.

00:49:41,958 --> 00:49:44,666

But yeah, just trying to find my way through of

00:49:44,666 --> 00:49:46,250

like, when does Jesus want me to stand

00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:47,000

up for something?

00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,208

And when does he want me to just stand firm, but

00:49:50,208 --> 00:49:53,166

still be very loving and gracious and

00:49:53,166 --> 00:49:56,416

welcoming and you know, inviting the dialogue,

00:49:56,708 --> 00:49:58,125

you know, a healthy dialogue, hopefully.

00:49:58,708 --> 00:50:00,416

But that's always part of the challenge.

00:50:01,208 --> 00:50:01,541

But okay.

00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:02,875

That's really good.

00:50:02,875 --> 00:50:04,958

Like, do you want to speak a bit as well...

00:50:04,958 --> 00:50:05,875

We've kind of been hitting

00:50:05,875 --> 00:50:07,125

this as we've been going along.

00:50:07,125 --> 00:50:07,333

Absolutely.

00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,708

...but why you believe it is important to integrate

00:50:10,708 --> 00:50:11,791

into a church community?

00:50:11,791 --> 00:50:11,958

Yeah.

00:50:12,875 --> 00:50:13,041

Yeah.

00:50:13,041 --> 00:50:13,708

Talk to me about that.

00:50:13,916 --> 00:50:16,125

Well, I am just so grateful.

00:50:16,375 --> 00:50:18,041

The Lord didn't just sort of, sort

00:50:18,041 --> 00:50:20,208

of abandon us there by ourselves

00:50:20,458 --> 00:50:23,000

in the beginning of that. I always tell David and

00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,208

Deborah, I tremble when I think what could

00:50:26,250 --> 00:50:29,833

have become of us if we didn't have David and

00:50:29,833 --> 00:50:32,458

Deborah there in particular, like God

00:50:32,458 --> 00:50:33,750

used all the many members

00:50:33,750 --> 00:50:34,958

of the body that he sent.

00:50:34,958 --> 00:50:36,541

We had a lot of people coming through.

00:50:37,041 --> 00:50:39,166

We had some interesting stories to tell of our

00:50:39,166 --> 00:50:42,041

years, but we had hard times and some

00:50:42,041 --> 00:50:42,875

wonderful times.

00:50:43,333 --> 00:50:45,375

But I will say during those times, God continued

00:50:45,375 --> 00:50:49,625

to majorly convict and shape and mold us and

00:50:49,625 --> 00:50:51,125

prepare us for future things.

00:50:51,458 --> 00:50:54,208

And I'm so grateful, like David and Deborah

00:50:54,208 --> 00:50:55,916

brought us into their home.

00:50:56,250 --> 00:50:58,416

All of us, like we were a motley crew, our whole

00:50:58,416 --> 00:51:00,541

church, and we met in his house.

00:51:01,166 --> 00:51:03,791

And they just welcomed us into their home.

00:51:03,791 --> 00:51:04,500

They fed us.

00:51:04,833 --> 00:51:06,708

They bore along with us.

00:51:07,083 --> 00:51:08,250

And they answered questions.

00:51:09,583 --> 00:51:13,125

We had wonderful Easter services where we'd spend

00:51:13,125 --> 00:51:14,708

the night together as a church and we'd

00:51:14,708 --> 00:51:17,000

have prayer partner times where we'd go and pray.

00:51:17,916 --> 00:51:19,875

And we'd maybe there'd be baptisms

00:51:19,875 --> 00:51:21,500

in the morning and things like that.

00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:23,333

It was very, very special years.

00:51:23,708 --> 00:51:25,791

And I'm so grateful.

00:51:25,791 --> 00:51:28,291

And he's continued to offer

00:51:28,291 --> 00:51:31,083

that discipleship and counsel.

00:51:31,333 --> 00:51:32,333

And I'm so grateful.

00:51:32,333 --> 00:51:35,083

And then no matter where God has had us, then

00:51:35,083 --> 00:51:37,291

God's brought other men and women along who've

00:51:37,291 --> 00:51:39,291

been able to encourage us in the faith and help

00:51:39,291 --> 00:51:42,041

us stand strong when we're being tested

00:51:42,333 --> 00:51:44,916

or questioning things.

00:51:45,416 --> 00:51:46,583

It's just been such a gift.

00:51:47,833 --> 00:51:50,500

And I will say, like there is definitely some

00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:51,833

kind of a protection there.

00:51:52,708 --> 00:51:54,583

Seems like spiritually, I know the Bible talks

00:51:54,583 --> 00:51:58,541

about those, like the principalities of wicked,

00:51:58,916 --> 00:51:59,500

you know, they're like,

00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:01,708

principalities govern things, you know?

00:52:01,708 --> 00:52:03,916

So like, I think about how that seems like

00:52:03,916 --> 00:52:06,333

there's some liberty given to them to corrupt

00:52:06,416 --> 00:52:09,000

and cause trouble in the world.

00:52:09,208 --> 00:52:10,375

But yet they're also

00:52:10,375 --> 00:52:12,291

angelic principalities, it seems.

00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,833

I think about that and I think, well, there does

00:52:16,833 --> 00:52:18,750

seem to be some sort of a protection

00:52:18,916 --> 00:52:23,166

in daily church life and, you know, sort of being

00:52:23,166 --> 00:52:26,041

a witness of Christ and there's power

00:52:26,041 --> 00:52:26,666

in that.

00:52:26,666 --> 00:52:30,166

I think it's, yeah, I feel like it's protected us

00:52:30,166 --> 00:52:33,916

both spiritually and even physically.

00:52:34,250 --> 00:52:36,291

I feel like it's kept us on the path.

00:52:36,291 --> 00:52:38,000

It's helped, or it's helped

00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,333

us to try to stay on the path.

00:52:39,333 --> 00:52:40,125

I can't say, "Oh, I've

00:52:40,125 --> 00:52:41,583

perfectly been on the path.

00:52:41,583 --> 00:52:42,166

Thank goodness.

00:52:42,916 --> 00:52:44,416

Oh my, look at me."

00:52:44,708 --> 00:52:49,125

But I'm so grateful for both

00:52:49,125 --> 00:52:50,458

the men and women who've gone before

00:52:50,458 --> 00:52:52,416

us in history that we can read their stories, we

00:52:52,416 --> 00:52:54,875

can see testimonies like Corrie Ten Boom

00:52:54,875 --> 00:52:57,750

of people just being willing to give their lives,

00:52:57,750 --> 00:53:00,666

for the Lord and no matter

00:53:00,666 --> 00:53:01,166

the cost.

00:53:01,541 --> 00:53:04,125

And then modern day people just, even if it's the

00:53:04,125 --> 00:53:06,208

people serving us the water on Sunday

00:53:06,291 --> 00:53:10,041

or, providing the baby meals when

00:53:10,041 --> 00:53:12,791

you've had a baby or that help you need it

00:53:12,791 --> 00:53:15,958

as a mommy and just all those little

00:53:15,958 --> 00:53:18,875

hidden workers who make up the body of Christ.

00:53:18,875 --> 00:53:19,750

I'm very grateful.

00:53:20,083 --> 00:53:21,416

I feel we all need that.

00:53:21,416 --> 00:53:23,291

We weren't meant to be alone.

00:53:23,541 --> 00:53:27,041

And Jesus needed us to continue to live

00:53:27,041 --> 00:53:28,750

that example that he lived,

00:53:29,541 --> 00:53:31,500

coming together, fellowshiping together, being

00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:34,291

witnesses of him praising him in

00:53:34,333 --> 00:53:38,166

song and reading the word, teaching the word and

00:53:38,166 --> 00:53:40,791

being discipled and making disciples,

00:53:41,291 --> 00:53:44,750

evangelizing-- all of those good things.

00:53:45,750 --> 00:53:46,625

Share whatever you like.

00:53:46,625 --> 00:53:48,375

You don't have to share much, but I know there's

00:53:48,375 --> 00:53:50,083

lots of people that listen to this podcast

00:53:50,083 --> 00:53:51,375

and are like, "Oh, you know, I'd

00:53:51,375 --> 00:53:52,458

like to kind of check this out."

00:53:52,458 --> 00:53:53,500

Or, "Oh, I'm intrigued by

00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:54,541

these ways of believing."

00:53:55,041 --> 00:53:57,541

But then when they actually, you know, start

00:53:57,541 --> 00:53:59,083

getting into it, it's like, "Whoa, that's

00:53:59,166 --> 00:53:59,416

confusing.

00:53:59,666 --> 00:54:00,750

I don't understand that."

00:54:02,166 --> 00:54:04,708

Maybe tell us a bit about that and also why you

00:54:04,708 --> 00:54:07,083

continued on with the process to see it

00:54:07,166 --> 00:54:07,458

through.

00:54:07,458 --> 00:54:09,500

The first thing that comes to my mind is that

00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:12,416

Jesus promises, "If we seek, we will find.

00:54:12,416 --> 00:54:14,041

If we're hungry and thirsty for

00:54:14,041 --> 00:54:15,625

righteousness, we will be satisfied."

00:54:16,125 --> 00:54:18,375

Deep in my heart, I had a hunger and a thirst,

00:54:18,375 --> 00:54:21,333

and that's what helped me when I felt humiliated.

00:54:21,833 --> 00:54:23,375

I felt like maybe we were crazy.

00:54:24,208 --> 00:54:27,166

I felt like maybe we were getting off, but at the

00:54:27,166 --> 00:54:28,916

end of the day, I wanted what was right.

00:54:28,958 --> 00:54:31,375

And if you find yourself in that place today,

00:54:32,291 --> 00:54:34,541

Jesus will also satisfy

00:54:34,541 --> 00:54:35,833

that thirst for righteousness.

00:54:36,666 --> 00:54:38,041

He'll satisfy the questions.

00:54:38,416 --> 00:54:41,000

And so in that though, I have funny stories of

00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,041

like my first visits to the Bercot's and

00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:45,958

my wardrobe didn't feel very godly when I...

00:54:46,250 --> 00:54:47,916

I guess they are already further along in their

00:54:47,916 --> 00:54:52,000

path of.... they had longer

00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,916

skirts and I just remember feeling very like my

00:54:55,916 --> 00:54:57,916

knees were showing and I'd pull my skirt

00:54:57,958 --> 00:54:58,958

down as far as I could.

00:54:58,958 --> 00:55:00,750

And they were so loving and gracious.

00:55:01,625 --> 00:55:03,208

It was like they didn't notice anything

00:55:03,208 --> 00:55:04,375

whatsoever, but I felt

00:55:04,375 --> 00:55:06,708

like, okay, that was the first

00:55:07,083 --> 00:55:09,500

family in real life I'd ever seen that was trying

00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:10,666

to be different than the world.

00:55:11,416 --> 00:55:12,458

They were willing to be different

00:55:12,458 --> 00:55:13,791

than everyone else to try and...

00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,625

The Bible says women ought to be modest.

00:55:16,875 --> 00:55:17,958

They had to dress like women.

00:55:18,208 --> 00:55:20,125

And what does that look like in today's age

00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:23,416

where, yes, you could have modest pants, but

00:55:23,583 --> 00:55:24,708

is that the best way?

00:55:24,708 --> 00:55:27,250

I mean, in many ways, it could be an okay thing.

00:55:27,916 --> 00:55:29,416

I don't want to say it's, you

00:55:29,416 --> 00:55:30,375

know, you're going to go to hell...

00:55:30,375 --> 00:55:32,958

My mom wears pants and she's a very godly woman.

00:55:33,708 --> 00:55:36,000

But I appreciate when we try...

00:55:36,541 --> 00:55:39,166

I always say we get the privilege to the very

00:55:39,166 --> 00:55:41,500

best of our ability, help each other, try

00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:44,000

to do what did Jesus want his...

00:55:44,250 --> 00:55:47,541

When we pray, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done

00:55:47,541 --> 00:55:49,000

on earth as it is in heaven."

00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,333

I think of that throne room.

00:55:50,708 --> 00:55:51,291

They're modest.

00:55:51,666 --> 00:55:54,583

They're shielding their faces and they're crying,

00:55:54,583 --> 00:55:55,916

"Holy, holy, holy," and I know I'm

00:55:55,958 --> 00:55:57,208

so far from that.

00:55:58,125 --> 00:56:00,583

But I want to continue to have that journey the

00:56:00,583 --> 00:56:02,416

rest of my life to say, "How do I bring

00:56:02,833 --> 00:56:03,791

that kingdom here?"

00:56:04,583 --> 00:56:06,458

It's probably definitely just a simple

00:56:06,458 --> 00:56:07,416

application and not

00:56:07,416 --> 00:56:08,916

something very complicated because

00:56:08,916 --> 00:56:10,958

Jesus came lowly and surprising

00:56:10,958 --> 00:56:12,916

everyone, not having fancy clothes.

00:56:12,916 --> 00:56:14,500

He wasn't dressed like a king and

00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:16,916

he rode a baby donkey into town.

00:56:17,333 --> 00:56:18,541

And you know, that was...

00:56:19,041 --> 00:56:21,000

He was trying to teach us something in that.

00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:22,208

So I love that.

00:56:22,208 --> 00:56:24,000

I love that about my Lord.

00:56:24,958 --> 00:56:25,916

I have many stories.

00:56:26,291 --> 00:56:27,458

I basically felt...

00:56:27,791 --> 00:56:28,833

I felt the need to...

00:56:29,416 --> 00:56:30,666

I got rid of my makeup.

00:56:31,041 --> 00:56:33,166

I got rid of all my jewelry.

00:56:33,875 --> 00:56:36,958

I had gotten rid of my wedding ring when I was in

00:56:36,958 --> 00:56:38,958

Germany because... I didn't get rid of it.

00:56:38,958 --> 00:56:39,000

00:56:39,333 --> 00:56:42,458

I put it away, stopped wearing it because I

00:56:42,458 --> 00:56:44,041

wanted to be a missionary.

00:56:44,416 --> 00:56:48,833

I imagined myself going to Africa and I saw an

00:56:48,833 --> 00:56:50,000

inconsistency telling

00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:51,500

someone who was impoverished,

00:56:52,708 --> 00:56:54,333

go in peace, be warmed and be filled.

00:56:54,333 --> 00:56:56,708

When I felt like I had this big diamond, he had

00:56:56,708 --> 00:56:59,208

given me a beautiful one carat oval when

00:56:59,208 --> 00:57:01,291

we were married and it seemed inconsistent.

00:57:01,666 --> 00:57:03,583

So without knowing anyone or anything, I just

00:57:03,583 --> 00:57:05,750

stopped wearing that. I still worth the skinny

00:57:05,750 --> 00:57:07,375

little wedding band that went with it.

00:57:08,083 --> 00:57:08,875

And it wasn't until my

00:57:08,875 --> 00:57:10,750

Charity years that we took that off.

00:57:10,750 --> 00:57:13,541

We had not worried about that for our 10 years

00:57:13,541 --> 00:57:15,833

with David and Deborah and I had no problem

00:57:15,916 --> 00:57:16,416

with that.

00:57:17,041 --> 00:57:20,166

But yes, there was something about that.

00:57:20,708 --> 00:57:21,500

Just having to get rid of

00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:22,750

everything, feeling like...

00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:26,458

We were both in college when we got out of the

00:57:26,458 --> 00:57:30,208

army and I remember going to school with

00:57:30,208 --> 00:57:31,708

the only dress I had that

00:57:31,708 --> 00:57:33,083

Heather Bercot let me borrow.

00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:34,375

It was the only thing I felt was modest.

00:57:35,041 --> 00:57:37,375

I remember these two guys whispering in the

00:57:37,375 --> 00:57:40,500

sociology class, "That girl wears the same

00:57:40,500 --> 00:57:41,916

dress every day."

00:57:43,458 --> 00:57:46,625

Okay, so I'm ashamed to say I basically left in

00:57:46,625 --> 00:57:48,458

tears and went back to our little dorm

00:57:48,458 --> 00:57:48,958

apartment.

00:57:49,833 --> 00:57:51,000

And I was like, "Lord, I'm

00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:52,458

not strong enough to do this."

00:57:52,458 --> 00:57:53,875

I felt so ugly.

00:57:54,458 --> 00:57:57,083

I just think it's a miracle that I can go around

00:57:57,083 --> 00:57:59,750

today not having mascara and all of that.

00:57:59,875 --> 00:58:03,083

And I don't want to condemn anybody who does, but

00:58:03,083 --> 00:58:06,166

I feel like for me, I feel like God has

00:58:06,166 --> 00:58:08,458

set me free that I don't have to worry about it.

00:58:08,791 --> 00:58:10,666

But I don't want to say that someone who does

00:58:10,666 --> 00:58:13,291

wear it is going to hell, but I feel like

00:58:13,291 --> 00:58:13,958

it's beautiful.

00:58:14,541 --> 00:58:17,000

Deborah would tell me, "Oh, you're beautiful."

00:58:17,708 --> 00:58:20,833

And she helped me to feel beautiful when I didn't

00:58:20,833 --> 00:58:22,500

feel very beautiful, but she would

00:58:22,583 --> 00:58:26,791

also highlight the outside is dying, but the

00:58:26,791 --> 00:58:28,458

inside is being renewed every day.

00:58:28,750 --> 00:58:31,000

And that was more what my focus should be.

00:58:31,666 --> 00:58:35,125

So that was something I appreciate about my

00:58:35,125 --> 00:58:38,458

journey, but I realize not everybody would

00:58:38,458 --> 00:58:39,250

see it that way.

00:58:40,125 --> 00:58:43,583

I wouldn't want to condemn somebody again for...

00:58:44,375 --> 00:58:45,958

Because that's a hard thing in our day and age,

00:58:46,333 --> 00:58:48,083

even for Anabaptist women.

00:58:48,791 --> 00:58:52,291

But I feel like it's a wonderful way to go.

00:58:53,458 --> 00:58:55,250

It sounds like you're going through a real

00:58:55,250 --> 00:58:57,875

process of formation, I think.

00:58:58,291 --> 00:58:58,500

Exactly.

00:58:59,083 --> 00:59:00,416

Building new habits.

00:59:00,875 --> 00:59:01,083

Absolutely.

00:59:01,625 --> 00:59:02,166

It's like this...

00:59:02,541 --> 00:59:02,750

Yeah.

00:59:03,708 --> 00:59:05,208

A rebuilding process or a

00:59:05,208 --> 00:59:06,666

building process you're going through.

00:59:07,291 --> 00:59:08,583

Maybe forging might be a better way.

00:59:09,166 --> 00:59:09,583

Yeah.

00:59:09,583 --> 00:59:11,125

That was constantly happening.

00:59:11,125 --> 00:59:14,791

I remember I had once tied an apron around my

00:59:14,791 --> 00:59:16,208

waist in Deborah's kitchen.

00:59:16,875 --> 00:59:19,333

I found it in her drawer and a sister came up

00:59:19,333 --> 00:59:22,208

behind me at church and said, "Church was

00:59:22,208 --> 00:59:23,833

David and Deborah Bercot's house."

00:59:23,833 --> 00:59:25,916

But she came up and said, "Excuse me, sister.

00:59:26,625 --> 00:59:28,666

Are you aware you're girded about the waist?"

00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:31,916

I felt as though I'd been

00:59:31,916 --> 00:59:33,416

discovered naked in the kitchen.

00:59:34,625 --> 00:59:37,250

Sheepishly took the apron off thinking, "I

00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:39,500

remember just feeling so exasperated, like,

00:59:39,625 --> 00:59:41,958

Lord, I want to do what's right with all my heart

00:59:41,958 --> 00:59:43,458

if I can just figure out what right

00:59:43,458 --> 00:59:43,833

is."

00:59:43,833 --> 00:59:46,375

I think when you are trying to follow the Lord,

00:59:46,375 --> 00:59:48,541

what I would encourage people, be prepared

00:59:48,583 --> 00:59:49,333

for a fight.

00:59:50,166 --> 00:59:51,833

The enemy is not going to want you to have a

00:59:51,833 --> 00:59:53,041

hunger and thirst for righteousness.

00:59:53,375 --> 00:59:55,833

He's not going to want you to have a longing to

00:59:55,833 --> 00:59:57,416

want to please Christ, even if it makes

00:59:57,416 --> 01:00:00,291

you different from some of your fellow believers

01:00:00,291 --> 01:00:02,250

and people that you feel have passed you up

01:00:02,250 --> 01:00:02,791

in the faith.

01:00:03,583 --> 01:00:05,583

But we still have to be willing to, if we are

01:00:05,583 --> 01:00:08,291

willing to all, just do the best we can

01:00:08,625 --> 01:00:11,125

to interpret and live out what we see.

01:00:11,791 --> 01:00:14,416

At the end of the day, Jesus is going to have his

01:00:14,416 --> 01:00:16,416

prayer answered that we all may be one.

01:00:17,666 --> 01:00:21,041

We can have long-suffering in the meantime.

01:00:21,041 --> 01:00:21,833

We can be gracious.

01:00:22,166 --> 01:00:24,416

We can believe the best for each

01:00:24,416 --> 01:00:26,291

other and esteem each other higher.

01:00:27,416 --> 01:00:28,750

But in the meantime, still be

01:00:28,750 --> 01:00:30,708

willing to be different for Christ.

01:00:31,291 --> 01:00:33,000

But no, the enemy is not

01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:34,250

going to take it laying down.

01:00:34,583 --> 01:00:37,250

You're going to be probably having a battle, but

01:00:37,250 --> 01:00:39,583

don't fear it because the Lord has brought

01:00:39,583 --> 01:00:43,083

me through so many hard things that the enemy

01:00:43,083 --> 01:00:46,250

tried to usurp or stop or interfere with that

01:00:46,250 --> 01:00:47,291

the Lord brought me through.

01:00:48,916 --> 01:00:50,083

But I realize it's good to

01:00:50,083 --> 01:00:51,583

give that little bit of a warning.

01:00:52,208 --> 01:00:54,250

You might encounter some difficulty as well, but

01:00:54,250 --> 01:00:55,416

don't let it hinder you.

01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:58,875

Just know if you persevere, you'll start seeing

01:00:58,875 --> 01:01:01,041

the miraculous on your behalf.

01:01:03,083 --> 01:01:07,916

It's this concept of it's not

01:01:07,916 --> 01:01:09,750

going to be easy necessarily, right?

01:01:09,750 --> 01:01:12,083

It's not like you're reading your Bible and

01:01:12,083 --> 01:01:13,583

suddenly angels start singing and it's like,

01:01:13,583 --> 01:01:15,000

"Wow, this is the right way to go."

01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:16,041

And bingo, everything's

01:01:16,041 --> 01:01:18,208

great and life just worked out.

01:01:19,166 --> 01:01:21,125

But it is a long process because somewhere along

01:01:21,125 --> 01:01:22,916

the way, you realize you have all these

01:01:22,916 --> 01:01:25,791

high ideals, but behind closed doors, you're

01:01:25,791 --> 01:01:28,416

failing at moments where I'm like... I know

01:01:28,416 --> 01:01:29,375

it still happens today.

01:01:29,916 --> 01:01:32,708

And I will say God has definitely made me

01:01:32,708 --> 01:01:35,375

stronger and I've grown stronger.

01:01:35,666 --> 01:01:37,791

Some new Christian muscles I didn't have before,

01:01:37,791 --> 01:01:40,416

but I'm still very much a work in process.

01:01:41,500 --> 01:01:44,916

I'm glad you used that word "ideals" because I'm

01:01:44,916 --> 01:01:47,208

guessing, but when you're in a situation

01:01:47,208 --> 01:01:48,166

like you were in, right?

01:01:48,333 --> 01:01:51,041

And you start learning some things like, "Oh, we

01:01:51,041 --> 01:01:53,416

need to change this and this and this,"

01:01:53,416 --> 01:01:53,666

whatever.

01:01:54,416 --> 01:01:56,166

And then you start looking to these other groups

01:01:56,166 --> 01:01:57,875

like, "Ah, maybe that's it."

01:01:57,875 --> 01:01:58,750

And then you could have

01:01:58,750 --> 01:02:00,416

these ideals of, "Oh, great.

01:02:00,416 --> 01:02:02,250

If we can just be like that, we'll be good.

01:02:02,458 --> 01:02:03,208

It'll be great."

01:02:03,458 --> 01:02:03,541

Absolutely.

01:02:03,875 --> 01:02:04,916

This was our trajectory.

01:02:06,291 --> 01:02:08,166

I hear a lot of people say this.

01:02:08,375 --> 01:02:09,083

We're builders.

01:02:09,083 --> 01:02:12,625

We wanted to do it together, but you just have to

01:02:12,625 --> 01:02:15,083

have the mentality, like let the Lord

01:02:15,083 --> 01:02:18,333

build the church and do the best you can to be a

01:02:18,333 --> 01:02:20,500

humble little member in it and be, "What's

01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:21,250

my role here?

01:02:21,250 --> 01:02:22,416

How can I be a builder?

01:02:22,416 --> 01:02:24,916

How can I be an encourager, a support?"

01:02:25,875 --> 01:02:29,250

Because that is something when someone realizes

01:02:29,250 --> 01:02:31,458

that, "Oh, the way I was living or the way

01:02:31,458 --> 01:02:32,916

I was reading scripture, I now

01:02:32,916 --> 01:02:34,625

don't believe that way anymore.

01:02:34,625 --> 01:02:36,291

I've changed that belief system."

01:02:37,166 --> 01:02:39,000

Then it can be like, "Ah, now we've got it."

01:02:39,291 --> 01:02:43,416

And this ideal of, "We've got it sorted now," is

01:02:43,416 --> 01:02:46,333

a pretty easy place to get into.

01:02:46,333 --> 01:02:46,583

I don't know.

01:02:46,583 --> 01:02:47,333

I just had a lot of

01:02:47,333 --> 01:02:49,083

interactions where that was the case.

01:02:49,083 --> 01:02:51,541

And then you kind of disillusion because at the

01:02:51,541 --> 01:02:53,375

end of the day, the church still is full

01:02:53,375 --> 01:02:55,666

of people and we can be a

01:02:55,666 --> 01:02:57,833

little selfish or not kind sometimes.

01:02:58,125 --> 01:02:58,958

And it gets complicated.

01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:00,750

You're so wise for your age, Reagan.

01:03:01,958 --> 01:03:03,291

I've just talked to a lot of people.

01:03:03,833 --> 01:03:08,875

You're just right on your point. But we get it. Yeah. We hear from different people who listen to this

01:03:08,875 --> 01:03:11,208

podcast and they're making some changes

01:03:11,208 --> 01:03:12,333

and they really believe it.

01:03:12,458 --> 01:03:13,208

And that's wonderful.

01:03:14,083 --> 01:03:16,541

But at the same time, it can

01:03:16,541 --> 01:03:19,291

be easy to idealize, "Oh, okay.

01:03:19,291 --> 01:03:20,666

If we're just like that,

01:03:20,666 --> 01:03:21,583

everything will be fine."

01:03:22,666 --> 01:03:24,458

And I think what you're saying is like, "Well,

01:03:24,875 --> 01:03:26,625

don't give up on the convictions, but also

01:03:26,625 --> 01:03:27,666

acknowledge it's going to be hard."

01:03:27,666 --> 01:03:28,250

That's right.

01:03:28,250 --> 01:03:30,208

And know that there may be different

01:03:30,208 --> 01:03:31,625

representation and different

01:03:31,625 --> 01:03:32,916

thoughts and different practice

01:03:32,916 --> 01:03:33,500

and different...

01:03:34,208 --> 01:03:34,416

Yeah.

01:03:34,833 --> 01:03:37,083

And be okay with that so far as

01:03:37,083 --> 01:03:39,208

being gracious with each other.

01:03:39,500 --> 01:03:40,916

But also not shy away.

01:03:41,125 --> 01:03:44,250

My personality type is to shy away from when I

01:03:44,250 --> 01:03:46,000

feel like it's the ultimate right thing.

01:03:46,541 --> 01:03:50,125

Because I want to be gracious to maybe someone

01:03:50,125 --> 01:03:52,208

who doesn't see it like me or I don't want

01:03:52,208 --> 01:03:54,000

someone to feel like I've rejected them because

01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:55,250

they don't see it like me.

01:03:56,375 --> 01:03:59,291

And I realize that a lot of great men and women

01:03:59,291 --> 01:04:01,458

have gone before us who gave their very

01:04:01,458 --> 01:04:04,333

lives who, yeah, they maybe

01:04:04,333 --> 01:04:06,208

didn't see everything the way we did.

01:04:06,208 --> 01:04:09,250

And so at the end of the day, I always think

01:04:09,250 --> 01:04:12,041

about how we see through a glass darkly at

01:04:12,041 --> 01:04:13,125

this time in life.

01:04:13,125 --> 01:04:15,583

But at the same time, I always say we get the

01:04:15,583 --> 01:04:18,208

privilege every day to try to do the very

01:04:18,208 --> 01:04:21,916

best we can to say, "Lord, oh, Lord, help me be

01:04:21,916 --> 01:04:23,541

hungry and thirsty for righteousness.

01:04:23,833 --> 01:04:24,833

Help me not lose that.

01:04:25,416 --> 01:04:26,666

Help me to please You.

01:04:26,666 --> 01:04:27,833

Help me to do what You need.

01:04:29,041 --> 01:04:30,000

Help me fulfill all my

01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,041

purpose like the Psalms say,

01:04:32,666 --> 01:04:34,541

'May you fulfill all your purpose'" The Lord

01:04:34,541 --> 01:04:37,458

has purposes He wants fulfilled for His glory

01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:38,666

in each one of us.

01:04:38,875 --> 01:04:39,916

And we don't know.

01:04:40,125 --> 01:04:42,125

I won't know my brothers' or my sisters' role.

01:04:42,125 --> 01:04:43,500

I just need to worry about mine.

01:04:44,208 --> 01:04:47,791

You know, and just try to not be discouraged if

01:04:47,791 --> 01:04:48,750

we don't see it exactly.

01:04:48,750 --> 01:04:51,041

But I wish for that unity all the time.

01:04:51,958 --> 01:04:54,958

And then the idealism, yeah, that's we've had to

01:04:54,958 --> 01:04:57,708

have a lot of balloons deflated and

01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:59,958

sails deflated along the way.

01:05:00,333 --> 01:05:01,250

Just like, okay.

01:05:01,916 --> 01:05:04,083

Like in the Pilgrim's Progress,

01:05:04,333 --> 01:05:06,250

"Is this the bliss you spoke of?"

01:05:06,750 --> 01:05:08,125

You know, like, this is

01:05:08,125 --> 01:05:09,916

not exactly what I expected.

01:05:10,458 --> 01:05:12,416

It's harder than, you know, than we thought.

01:05:12,875 --> 01:05:14,083

Yeah, it is.

01:05:14,083 --> 01:05:14,250

It is.

01:05:14,250 --> 01:05:14,708

More complicated.

01:05:15,333 --> 01:05:15,625

It is.

01:05:15,875 --> 01:05:16,125

Amen.

01:05:16,666 --> 01:05:17,541

That's for sure.

01:05:18,208 --> 01:05:24,125

So for, just to wrap this whole package down to a

01:05:24,125 --> 01:05:26,125

final question here, for anyone listening

01:05:26,208 --> 01:05:28,750

to this that perhaps is on a similar journey that

01:05:28,750 --> 01:05:31,291

you went through or is processing through

01:05:31,291 --> 01:05:33,666

and what does Jesus want me to do?

01:05:34,416 --> 01:05:37,208

And maybe I need to make some changes in things I

01:05:37,208 --> 01:05:38,208

believe or the way I live.

01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,291

What would you say to those people that are in

01:05:41,291 --> 01:05:43,500

that process right now and wrestling

01:05:43,583 --> 01:05:44,416

through those questions

01:05:44,416 --> 01:05:46,166

and trying to find their way?

01:05:46,166 --> 01:05:47,000

What would you say to them?

01:05:47,375 --> 01:05:50,833

I would say walk and talk with Jesus, ask Him,

01:05:51,208 --> 01:05:55,166

and then also dare to believe big dreams,

01:05:55,250 --> 01:05:57,791

like dream big dreams and dare to believe God can

01:05:57,791 --> 01:05:59,291

do it because I do believe there's

01:05:59,291 --> 01:06:02,416

something about, you know, "Oh ye of little faith."

01:06:02,416 --> 01:06:06,416

And I have been still today sometimes of little

01:06:06,416 --> 01:06:09,333

faith, but just daring to believe that the

01:06:09,333 --> 01:06:11,583

Lord can provide every need and abundance of

01:06:11,583 --> 01:06:14,125

whether it's fellowship, whether it's answers

01:06:14,125 --> 01:06:17,833

for your questions and just keep tapping into His

01:06:17,833 --> 01:06:20,625

grace, keep knocking being that importunate

01:06:20,750 --> 01:06:22,791

widow or the persistent widow.

01:06:22,791 --> 01:06:24,500

That's the modern version is better word,

01:06:24,833 --> 01:06:26,916

persistent widow that keeps knocking and the

01:06:26,916 --> 01:06:30,708