Welcome to the Mindful

Builder, everybody.

Julia, Matt, how

are you guys?

Very good.

I've just come back

from Canberra, so it's

a little bit warmer in

Melbourne today, and it's

fucking cold outside.

Sorry, language

warning again.

But it's surprisingly,

it's warmer here.

Than it was in camera.

Sorry to anyone

that lives in

Canberra.

Today we're talking

about boundaries or

setting boundaries.

And again, that Matt and

I do, I think Matt and I

both do it a lot better

than what we used to.

, But we have again brought

on someone a lot smarter

than us, Julie, and

she's going to tell us

all about boundaries and

why it is important, I

guess, especially for

business owners or tradies.

But I also think that

people now working

for people, that there

needs to be boundaries.

Like the government

have just introduced a

law around this exact

topic, haven't they?

Yeah, around emails and

not having to access

our answer emails

after a certain time,

for example, or calls.

Yeah.

Yeah, I actually

totally agree with it.

I think within reason,

And I can be the first

person sometimes.

I'll give one of my

boys a call home at

5pm, which I feel is

really late personally.

Because I will forgot to do

it, but it's a quick, hey,

this is what's happening.

And I try to avoid it as

much as I can and sometimes

that call, always it.

I just don't call him like,

hey, what are you doing?

But at the same time, yeah,

boundaries, can be very,

very hard to create because

you do become obsessed with

something or you have a

client their hours might

not work with yours But

should we start with this

because there's so many

avenues we can take this.

I suppose it'd be a great

place to start with the

idea that boundaries

are not necessarily

just about saying no.

They're really

a way to set up.

of where you start

and where you finish.

And so it's very much about

what you will and won't

tolerate, what you will

and won't accept what you

do and don't agree with.

And there are also

boundaries about yourself.

So you might have

strict boundaries.

Say for example I don't

look at emails after 4.

30 on a Friday.

That's a solid

boundary for me.

And In their preamble,

you actually talked

about within reason.

We also want to talk about.

the difference between

rigid boundaries, which

is no exceptions ever

versus porous boundaries.

And ideally what we want

to be able to do is come

up with some clear ideas

around some flexible

boundaries because

no one strategy works

well all of the time.

Yeah.

So a rigid boundary

would be where under no

circumstances do you shift

and a porous boundary

would be an example of you

know, that time where um,

you really want to say no.

So somebody might ask

something of you and

because of who it is or

what the circumstances,

you might say yes.

And so we're talking

about, things getting

through a rigid boundary

would be where we

don't shift at all.

And I often say to people,

No one strategy works 100

percent of the time, so

being very rigid under

all circumstances is

not necessarily going to

be helpful across some

boundaries and it might

become a bit more apparent

as we work our way through.

Would a rigid boundary be

something like a process

within our business though?

Yeah, and I suppose today

I'm talking more about

personal human boundaries

as opposed to business

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, yeah.

That's probably a bit out

of my scope, which was me

setting a boundary there.

So talking about business

processes is out of

my scope of expertise.

Yeah.

my brain goes to a

million different ways

when we talk about

boundaries and like from

my experiences, I think

Hamish just said before

is when we first started

the business and even

yourself, Julie, like there

wasn't boundaries, like

kind of learn to create

boundaries from mistakes.

I would feel.

Is that probably

what both of you did?

Oh yeah, I've learned

loads running on my second

business now and you know,

second time around I've

got a very different idea

around, what's acceptable

and what's not acceptable

how I want to run things

and how I operate.

And that's not about

me controlling.

Other people, it's very

much about how I run things

and what I will and won't

tolerate or what I will

and won't take part in.

So if I give you a

clinical example I've got

really clear boundaries

around the types of

clients that I work with.

And that's not

about controlling.

That's about, quite

frankly, what areas

I'm trained in and

what I'm good at and

the areas that I don't

know what I'm doing.

And somebody would be much

better placed with another.

type of therapist

or a differently

trained therapist.

So I'm really clear on the

types of clients that do

and don't come in my door.

And that's important

for everybody.

So that's not mean or

nasty or being controlling.

That's just going,

Hey here's where

my expertise lies.

Here's what I'm good at.

And here's what I, yeah,

I'm not very good at.

the same can be said, Matt,

to the type of clients

that we take on too.

You know, we've got, a

pretty clear vision for

our businesses in terms

of only wanting to do

high performance projects.

I guess in a way that's a

boundary because if someone

came to me and said they

just wanted to build this

run of the mill code build

home, I'd be like, no, it

doesn't fit in with what my

vision is for my company.

Yeah.

and the business

boundaries and the

process, that's probably

what I was meaning more

so around those things.

And the more the

boundaries around,

like what I expect from

people or the boundaries

that conversations you

should be had or the

boundaries of how you

should present yourself

More so, around

being rigid.

I think that's a good place

to start because if you

take that and then we start

to talk more about personal

boundaries that, that's a

good kind of starting place

because they're, crucial

for everyone boundaries.

And if we don't work with

them, they can, that can

kind of lead to burnout.

Boundaries are important

around being able to

protect your time and your

energy and your mental

space and making sure that

you don't push yourself.

too far.

And there's sort of

like the standards or

the rules or the limits

that we set about the

words and behaviors that

we expect from others,

but also that we use.

And so boundaries are

important because it's

not just about you setting

your own, it's also

modeling and respecting

others boundaries too.

And so that, that's

the flip side to it.

Now we've got all

sorts of boundaries.

Boundaries around

physical touch around

time, around language,

around who we spend our

time with, household

work responsibilities

and we've often got

different boundaries for

different relationships

and different environments.

So it kind of covers a

lot of ground, doesn't it?

the boundaries that we

have to set here as a

business are completely

different unfortunately,

or fortunately, whichever

way you want to look

at it, like our job

sometimes isn't just

nine, the nine to five

or on a construction

site, seven to four.

what say for example, my

team would do, they're

the hours they work, but I

also have additional hours.

But I still sometimes

post a certain period of

time, need to be able to

get onto a client or speak

to a client, or what time

becomes late, not too late.

Oh, I want to have a

meeting at this time.

I can't do that.

Like, they're the

topics that I really,

really struggled early

on running a business.

I found myself having

like 8, 9 PM meetings.

And then it got to a point,

I'm like, hey, what's

the point here and I then

learned very quickly that

I learned that I lost

control and I was losing

control of my boundaries

and I think that's the

point that I realized

that, hey, something

needs to change here and

that's the first time that

I thought I need to set

boundaries so it suits me.

agree, Matt.

I think when clients

say to me now.

I'm only available

after 5 p.

m.

because that's when I'm

home and I'm finished work.

My immediate response

is, well, I'm sorry,

because that's my

time with my kids.

So we have very strict.

Parameters around when

we have meetings and it

is between 7 and 5 p.

m.

And that's my work time.

So I'm very clear when

we start engaging with

clients in the pre

construction process that

our meetings are always

between 7 and 5, 7 a.

m.

and 5 p.

m.

And then Monday to

Friday and generally

Fridays, we very rarely

take meetings after 2.

p.

m.

it's actually on my email

that my times at work,

but for example, like when

you, when someone goes,

Oh, I can't do that time.

I've got work.

Well, I always say,

well, do you call the

dentist because you

can only do between a.

m.

and 1 a.

m.

That's the only time

it works for you.

Are they going to come

in and And work on your

teeth at that time.

Like, I know that's a

huge exaggeration, but

I think if anything, the

last few years that we've

learned is that everything

can get done in the day.

It's just about

manipulating the day and

making it work for everyone

or finding a time that

will work for everyone.

I think you're right.

Hey, Matt, can I take

you back to you said?

So you were doing those

9 PM meetings and then

you sort of started

to ask yourself why

did you remember what

you came up with in

terms of the why?

Because it's a

really good question.

think there's

two issues here.

And one, there's this

whole attitude that you've

got to grind, grind,

grind and work harder

and work more and do

all these things, and I

don't disagree with it.

To some extent that

unfortunately, not that

I think this is the right

way to go about life,

but the working a nine

to five job probably just

doesn't unfortunately cut

it anymore to some extent.

All right, and

that's the reality.

what I started to say

is I need to work more

and more and more.

And like that grind, but

then I learned that, hey,

you also need to live

a life and I need to be

flexible to make the life

that like work for me

and that what works and

what works best for me.

So, I started to find that

my calendar and my time was

at the mercy of everyone

else and it didn't suit me.

So, having a nine o'clock

meeting meant that I

was having a shit sleep

because I would go to

bed completely frazzled.

Because I was thinking

about work again.

I couldn't wind down.

I couldn't unwind.

I couldn't just have that

me time and I learned very,

and that was that, Oh,

like, but why did I have

to have that at night?

Because that suited them.

Why can't I have

that at 6am?

Because that suited me

when they're free too.

So I just found that

probably, and I look back

now and there wasn't mental

health issues or anything

like that, but I'd say that

like my, capacity to work

at what I would refer to

my optimal level was not

at those times as well.

So I work better

early in the morning.

So I think going back,

it was probably just

that like, but why do

I need to work now?

I've already worked

10 or 12 plus hours.

Like, why do I need

to keep working now?

Why can't that be in

the middle of my day?

Yeah, it can be really

interesting to start

to ask that question of

yourself, like when you're

doing things, maybe that

longer than you want

to, or longer than you'd

planned or outside of your,

, normal zone to be thinking

about why, because.

Sometimes it's around, we

weren't encouraged or we

didn't feel safe enough

to set them as kids, so

sometimes, , saying no

or no that doesn't suit

me was not something that

we were able to do as

children or younger people.

And sometimes we didn't

see role models in our

lives to demonstrate that

it was okay to go, no,

well, that, you know,

that's not going to work

for me or thanks for

asking, but I'm not going

to attend really often.

It's around avoiding

conflict or not being

able to communicate

in an assertive way,

not an aggressive way,

but an assertive way.

And sometimes it takes some

time to kind of work on

your assertiveness skills.

another classic one is that

sort of people pleasing.

So your wording there,

Matt was at the mercy

of everyone else, which

is that sense of, I

must please others.

hundred percent.

That's exactly

what I was doing.

And I think that's probably

the biggest common issue

that a lot of tradies

make is a lot of tradies

simply at their basic

core, just people pleases.

That's it.

They like doing stuff

with their hands.

They like building

or fixing something.

And that pleases people

because they're unhappy.

And I think they get

constantly abused in the

fact of that, that their

wage, that people try

and negotiate their pay,

or the hourly rate or

I'm not going to pay you

as much because it was

quicker than what you said.

Like all these

other things.

And I think that, people

just sort of take the

piss out of the situation

because they, they kind

of can, because they

understand that they're

vulnerable and they

are people pleasers.

And look, I was

at that point too.

And I, still am at a core,

I'm a people pleaser.

But I think what I've

learned in 10 years of

running a business is

I love the word no at

the right times and you

need to learn to say it.

I think that, I mean,

you're right there,

definitely Hamish,

have you had some

experience with this?

Yeah, I'm sitting there

putting my hand up.

I feel like I've been

really quiet today.

I was just telling Matt

and Matt and Julie when

we came on, I had a really

rubbish sleep last night.

So I'm, I'm actually

sitting here just

enjoying the conversation.

And I'm kind of

thinking about my

kids at the moment.

And, you know, one

of the one things my

wife is amazing at.

Is teaching them

respect and teaching

them boundaries.

So, for example, like I

always want to give my kids

a kiss, but Lucy really

emphasizes if they say, no,

dad, I don't want to kiss,

not to force that kiss.

Because that's

kind of, respecting

their boundaries.

. Do you think kids

that have been taught

boundaries at a young

age are better at setting

their own boundaries

when they're older?

100%.

Yes.

100%.

Yes.

So if they've had it

modelled and encouraged,

but sometimes we can

be really scared to

set a boundary because

we think it's going to

damage a relationship or

somebody might leave us

or they won't like us.

A lot of not setting

boundaries is around.

What's somebody

going to think of me?

Are they not

going to like me?

Are they not, for example,

are they not going to

choose me for a job?

And so, children that

have had those types

of behaviours really

encouraged it just

becomes normal for them.

It's just the same as

if you've got parents

that read, and read

at night time, then it

just becomes natural.

we learn our behaviors

from watching.

, you can talk to somebody

till the cows come home.

The most important way

to influence someone is

around by demonstration.

Follow up question to this.

Say, we didn't

have that modelling

when we were a kid.

And here we are now,

30, Can we learn how

to set boundaries?

Is that something that

we can be trained to do?

You absolutely can.

And can I just

put it out there?

I'm not super great

at this in some areas.

Yeah, so there are

definitely different types

of environments that I

struggle with, but this

is something that I work

on both for myself and

with clients all the time.

So it's a solid yes, you

absolutely can learn how

to work out and implement

your own boundaries.

A lot of it is around

working with your

own discomfort.

And so one of the things

we know is that if

we continually avoid

something, avoidance tends

to make the behavior, that

reinforces the behavior.

So if we start, and

actually we learn about our

boundaries, we're going to

talk about the different

types and then we're going

to talk about ways to

actually implement them.

But practicing, absolutely

is the best way.

to learn.

I don't think that you're

ever too old to learn.

I mean, I'm in my 50s,

dude, and I'm still

learning more about

my own boundaries and,

you know, what does and

doesn't work for me.

Before we go on, Julie,

can I ask a question,

a follow up question?

Can you set too

many boundaries?

Oh, that is a

great question.

I reckon you can.

I reckon you can

because because as

you set too many

boundaries, and I'm not

a psychologist here, you

actually start to have no

boundaries almost, like

it becomes the reverse.

Or you're too dictator

y, like you become

too much of a dictator

sort of style of thing.

if you're constantly

setting boundaries in

order to, I guess, not

put yourself in situations

that feel uncomfortable or

that you don't want to be

in, are you also stopping

yourself from growth?

And is there like a perfect

balance between setting

enough boundaries and not

setting enough boundaries?

That's a pretty

interesting question.

I think that there's a

little bit of confusion

here around what a

boundary is and what

a boundary isn't.

And so, Boundaries can

definitely be too rigid,

which is that they never

move, no matter what the

circumstance or what's

happening in the world.

Or they can be too

porous where they

shift all of the time.

I'm going to have to think

about too many boundaries

because I don't have a

solid answer for that.

My gut feeling is most

definitely yes because

extremes of anything

kind of never really

work out, do they?

that was where my brain

was going I was sort of

thinking like, if I set

a million boundaries

for my team, then they

have no boundaries.

Yeah.

How about we talk about

what they actually are and

what they mean, and then

we'll be talking the same

language because sometimes,

sometimes there are rules.

So, for example, there

are workplace rules

that, you know, have

to be wearing PPE.

For example, that's

not a boundary.

That's a requirement and

a rule, which is separate

to the boundaries that

you have for yourself.

And so that's a really

important distinction.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely.

can you touch on the

types of boundaries

there are then, Julie?

Yeah, so the main

boundaries, we've got

things like physical

boundaries, so they

relate to personal

space, your privacy,

physical needs, things

like rest and recovery.

So Hamish, you've done

a great job of you

know, being really

boundaried on the weekend.

And I know that I can't

call you on a Sunday

because you will not be

picking up your phone.

that's your rest and

recovery time, which

is really great.

We've got emotional

boundaries.

So that involves

protecting your emotional

wellbeing and not

taking on other people's

feelings or issues.

We've got time boundaries.

Matt, you talked about a

good one earlier, which

is managing how you spend

your time and making sure

there's a balance between

work and personal life.

We've got material

boundaries.

So thinking about how you

manage your belongings

and your finances,

like lending your

tools or lending money.

So for example, I don't

lend my ski gear to anyone.

That's a very solid

material boundary for me.

And mental boundaries.

So these involve things

like maintaining your

opinions and beliefs

and ideas without being

sort of bullied about or

overwhelmed by others.

So if we think about

clients sort of calling

you after hours.

You know, that's

a time boundary.

I don't take calls after

X or Y, which is different

to, you can't call me, not

telling you what to do.

I'm telling you what

I do and don't do.

it's not saying that I

don't, the boundaries I

need to keep, I try to

keep it, say, before 5pm.

There are some times

when I'm playing phone

tag with the client and

they'll be like, hey,

I've just got meetings

until 5, I actually just

need to speak to them.

So I'm like, can you

just call me quickly

when you finish?

call me between

30, but later?

I'm not answering.

and they respect it.

They're totally fine.

Sometimes it, just

works that way.

But I'm not sitting

here for a client.

Like, if I see my phone

go off and a client calls

me at 7 o'clock at night,

it better be a fucking

pretty good reason why.

Like, straight out,

it must be a pretty

good reason why.

Yeah.

Oh, that's a good

example of a more

flexible boundary.

So let's say you shut

off at five, but you

know that you've been

playing phone tag and

you're making a judgment

call on that particular

client with some extra

background and knowing

what you need to know.

We all have emergencies,

you know, a real thing

that happens and we've got

to shift, but it's handy

to kind of have an idea

around time boundaries,

emotional boundaries,

personal boundaries.

the time boundary, I

think it's probably

really relevant to

everyone in the sense of

that work personal life.

And that's probably where

I was wanting to get out

of this, maybe this episode

to understand, because I

think that's the one thing

people always struggle with

more like than anything,

like the personal space

and physical boundaries.

that can be almost

black and white

sometimes, but very also.

Yeah, I don't invade

someone's personal space.

Really simple, like

privacy issues, all

these other things.

I think emotional can

be probably a bit of a

deeper topic that could

be very deep to dive

into to some extent.

material one is actually

quite good as well,

because it's learning

the tools and stuff,

and that, that's quite

topical to some extent.

But yeah, the time

boundary one is the one

that I always, I think.

I always go back to, to

understand like, what

does that look like?

How should it look?

And for me, it's like a

multifacet thing where

it's like, what's it look

like with my clients?

What's it look like with my

wife, everything like that.

It's interesting, Matt,

that you talk about

physical boundaries and

my very immediate response

was try being a woman.

So it's glorious for you

to say that you're really

clear on not invading

physical boundaries.

As a 50 plus year

history of being a woman,

that's it's a really

interesting topic around

physical boundaries.

Yeah.

can totally respect that.

I think that, and

that's almost like it's

whole own discussion.

and, maybe again, it goes

back to the parents and

you learn the behaviors and

the boundaries that your

parents set from early on.

And I was always

taught respect and

I have a sister.

So you, you grow up

with woman with your

mom and your sister.

And so you just respect

And all these things,

but I could quickly see,

and the way our world is

at the moment, amount

of domestic violence and

all those other things

that, that's something

that definitely should

be taught in all schools.

family, Matt.

you sound like you've

got a really great

solid, respectful,

open, communicative

background, which is

yeah, it's also, I've

lived a very wood, probably

silver spoon in a sense,

like sheltered life from

that reason, because I have

had it quite easy compared

to a lot of other people.

yeah.

But if you're open to

listening and learning,

you can always understand

from other people's points

of view, that's for sure.

But yeah, I've, I've

enjoyed listening to you

talk about your background.

I'm very lucky to have the

parents I have or not just

parents, family, and even

like there's like, I've

been raised by multiple

people to some extent,

like your grandparents,

you, you've did the wider

family, like even as

wide as someone like my

best friends, parents and

stuff like, like it takes,

it was like a community

to raise of, I forget

the saying, a village

to raise an individual,

something like that.

village to raise a child.

Yeah, that's the one.

Yeah, that's one.

what's difference between

boundaries and demands?

Julie

Yeah, excellent

question Hamish.

Thanks for getting

us back on track.

it's a really

important distinction.

And sometimes people

weaponize boundaries, which

is that's my boundary and

you have to do something.

And that's absolutely

the opposite of

what a boundary is.

A boundary is all

about what you will do

in response to that.

to someone else's behavior.

So it's very

much about you.

Whereas a demand is

about trying to control

somebody else's behavior.

So when we set a boundary,

we're expressing our own

limits and what we're

going to do if those

limits are crossed.

But a demand is trying

to force the other person

to act in a certain way.

And that, you know,

quite understandably

that causes tension and

resentment and arguments.

And most of us don't like

being told what to do.

And so that often arcs up

a, you know, a response.

I feel like that could

get so quickly confused

between people as well.

if you're someone who likes

everything their own way.

And I've seen it when

I'm like, and I've seen

it when you're like,

no I'm not doing that.

Cause that's, and

they do not like that.

Could I give you

like a simple example

of how it works?

So let's say you've got a

colleague that keeps sort

of showing up late and

it's affecting your work.

A demand would be you have

to stop being late or else.

So that's very

much directed at

the other person.

A boundary would be if

you keep arriving late,

I'll need to adjust the

way that I work so that

I'm not waiting for you.

So the key difference there

is that you're explaining

what will happen if that

boundary is not respected,

but you're certainly not

saying, I mean, I can

keep on turning up late.

That's fine, but you're

not going to wait.

That's what the

nuanced difference is.

Does that kind

of make sense?

like that open ended

questioning and it's

like, it's almost like

an open ended statement.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Good point.

Yeah, absolutely.

So boundaries within say

colleagues and bosses.

Which I think goes back

to us at the start can

sometimes be tricky where

I'm trying not to call

them too late or And think

the clear guidelines that

the government have now

written around, like,

the right to, unplug,

like, I think it's totally

fair because I also hate

it when someone sends

me, like, a 1am email,

like, I'd sit there

and go, like, really?

Like, did you have

to send it then?

my work will schedule them.

And so I might choose

to be working late at

night because that's when

it works, works for me.

I tend to do a lot of

work on a Sunday as

well because that works

really well for me.

But for my team, my

emails are scheduled.

So they're not getting,

you know, a 10 p.

m.

Sunday email.

But that's my choice to

do my work at that time

because that's when it's

quiet and it suits me and

I'm a bit of a night owl.

But getting back

to that point.

That's really great

initiative government.

That's for sure.

Cause like one, one, I

don't know if this is

falls into this category,

but like one of the

things that works really,

really well for me with

boundaries is like turning

off notifications on say,

social media, emails.

I do not have emails coming

up at any time of the day.

even work hours?

I found that running over

your phone with a lawn

mow was a really great

way to set boundaries on

the weekend, although.

I know we've

touched on before.

It's probably not the

most recommended way

to set a boundary.

I actually got called

out by, one of my staff

members, because I was

contacting them on a.

On a Sunday when I was

you know, having random

thoughts and he basically

turned around and goes,

dude, like that kind

of stuff can either do

that on a Friday or it

can wait until Monday.

Because this is my time

and I, I actually don't

want to be engaging

in work on a Sunday.

yeah, I, I hate it when

people bring up work on

a Saturday or Sunday.

I have a strict rule

in my workplace.

It's like, there's no

Saturday and Sunday work.

I don't want to

know about it.

If you're there,

do not call me.

If you can't get your

stuff in a Monday to Friday

done, that's your problem.

There's enough time in

the week to get it done.

And if you do need to

call me because you work

a Saturday, go home.

So that would be like

if we rephrased into

strict boundary speak.

Mm.

Yeah.

So this would be, I

don't respond to X or

Y on the weekends.

those exact

words but these are the,

the boundaries that we

set we've got neighbours

that we need to respect.

I also want them to

respect their time and

hopefully enforce some

boundaries themselves

with their families.

Because I think that's

one thing tradies suck at.

So do you want to give

us a good example about

setting boundaries with

colleagues and bosses?

Yeah, so let's say for

example, you're asked to

work late, but you already

have other commitments.

You can do that without

being confrontational.

You can say something

along the lines of, I

understand the need, but

I've already made plans.

Let's figure out a solution

that works for both of us.

So it's about respecting

your own limits.

And in this instance, sort

of offering a compromise.

It's also communication,

I would say, like, if

you're working at the

last minute on a Friday

that, hey, you need to

work tomorrow, there's

probably bigger things.

I feel with all of the

tradie building stuff, the

boundary is set, or there's

boundaries because there's

a lack of organization or

a lack of communication,

but there's bigger

factors at play sometimes.

Like

point, actually.

boundaries are

set for not, yeah.

can I ask a question?

Yeah.

given we have a

professional psychologist

in the room how do

good boundaries help

protect mental health?

Boundaries are really

important to help avoid

burnout and stress

because in essence,

they, they prevent you

from taking on too much.

They also help you

kind of maintain

control over your life.

So without them, you can

start to get overwhelmed

or anxious or resentful.

So if we're continuously,

for example, saying yes

to things that we don't

want to do or working

outside of the hours that

we have decided are okay.

Or for example, Lending

tools that we don't get

back or like pick a whole

host of things that we've

sort of done or said

yes to or agreed to.

All of those things

mount up and that

starts to take a toll

on your mental health.

So good boundaries are

really good, you know,

give you the space to

recharge and focus on

what, what matters.

Yeah.

Can I raise another

interesting part

around boundaries?

Lots of, for lots of

people, they struggle to

set boundaries because

they struggle with guilt.

Especially if you're

kind of used to saying

yes to everything.

And that often comes from

a fear of disappointing

others, or a fear

of facing conflict.

So, they're not

about being selfish.

sometimes people go,

well, I can't say no

because I'll feel guilty.

And so learning how to

sit with a little bit of

discomfort is part of the

process in learning how

to set good boundaries.

So if I give an example

at work, you know,

clients would often say,

you know, I can only

come after work or, I

really need to see you.

can you stick me on

at the end of the day?

Now in an absolute

emergency, that might be

a possibility, but across

the board, my response is

no, I, you know, my last

appointment's at 4 30.

That's the last available

time because if I work

myself to the bone,

I'm not going to be

a good psychologist.

I'm not going to be

on the ball for the

rest of the people.

So living with that

sense of guilt of saying,

no, I can't once we

get used to that, that

feeling of discomfort,

it starts to get easier.

And I think once you

shift that boundary

once for something,

you've now created a

new boundary that's set.

Like that's now, well

they've done it once,

I'll do it again.

Spectacular point, Matt.

We call that

boundary creep.

And that's exactly right.

So it's that sense of,

oh, you did it once.

Why can't you do it again?

could you not set?

I know we're probably

going down a total

rabbit hole here.

Like, I know that we're

talking about clients

and sometimes, you know,

we can't make a meeting.

The only time that

we can make a meeting

is after hours.

Can you set

boundaries about.

The break in the rules of

the past boundary, Julie.

Like say I have a boundary

that I don't take any

meetings after five, but

I really need to take this

meeting at six o'clock

because it's the only

time it's really important

that we have this meeting

now, would you lead in

and say, Hey, I know this

is outside of our normal

work hours and we won't

be making a habit of

it, but let's see if 6.

PM actually works for

both of us on this.

I

I'm going to answer that

with a question why are

you making the exception?

because there's often

exceptions to the rule.

Why are you making

the exception?

Yeah.

can't it just wait till

tomorrow half the time?

This is what I always

don't understand.

Like, this is one of my

beefs I have is like, what

at 8pm, what is going to

change on a building site?

Like, honestly, any time

after 4 o'clock, once

everyone's gone home,

nothing's changing.

Like, it's done.

Day's done.

I'm hearing everything

you're saying and maybe

I'm not answering my

own question, but like

sometimes you might have

a day that's completely

booked to the next day

and you might need to

resolve this one thing and

a quick 15 minute meeting

at 6pm might resolve it

and you could just put

it to bed and move on.

So really direct

question, Hamish, how

often is this happening?

off.

Yeah.

Fantastic.

Really

Mate, I tell you what,

like with the shit

sleep that I had last

night, hopefully in bed.

it's not just my

internet that's slow

today, it's my brain.

That's in vain.

if we're making

regular exceptions,

we want to probably

start to reconsider.

So absolutely one

offs and that's

around being flexible.

But if we're making

exceptions after exception,

after exception, and you'll

know, because internally

you'll be, you know, going,

ah, bloody hell, I've got

to do this meeting later.

I don't know why

I said yes, it's

giving me the shits.

I've got no

time to do this.

I can't get dinner.

You know, when you're

having that kind of

response, That's a really

good signal that you're

probably not maintaining

your boundaries very

well because you've got

that kind of response

or that, irritation

or that exhaustion or

whatever it might be,

So I want to know tips and

when I think about tips is

like, like for one thing

that I do and I'm trying

really, really hard is

I have an app blocker on

my phone that shuts off

social media at certain

times of the day and at

the moment from 5am to 8.

30am, social media

is locked out.

I can't access it.

That is one, so I'm just

not being distracted,

not sitting on it.

My screen time

was quite large.

I was like, I need to

reduce this and that's

a barrier or boundary

that I've set or it's

a tool that's helped

me set a boundary.

do you have some tools,

tips for people listening?

Not just business owners,

just a normal trader, what

they could do to set some

boundaries for themselves?

Sure do.

So I think Giving yourself

permission to say no.

So actually thinking

about no being an okay

response, and doing

what's best for you.

Thinking about what

you are and aren't

comfortable with,

what's most important.

Being clear about what

people can expect from

you, as well as what

you expect from them.

Because these are

a two way street.

Okay?

It can be really helpful

to practice role playing

these conversations

around when you're

trying to set boundaries

or holding boundaries.

We want to be polite.

but assertive in

really clear language.

And I think Matt, you

raised earlier, you know,

most of these things

can be solved with good

communication, strongly

recommend communicating

out loud and in person, not

via text, not via email.

Those things we miss

tone and intent and

having a bit of a think

about your own triggers.

So the things that

are difficult for you.

So making a plan on how

to look after yourself.

If somebody crosses your

boundaries, you might

have that friend or client

that, you know, is always

pushing those buttons.

So thinking about how

you're going to respond.

And knowing when

to walk away.

So it's actually okay

if something's getting

difficult and your

boundaries are being

breached, it's, it's

quite fine to take a

break and move away.

that last one is probably

super important that when

you do need a walkway, if

it is your boundary and

how to do it a manner,

That is sort of probably

not disrespectful,

doesn't put fuel to the

fire on the other person

setting the boundary or

having the conversation

because that can

sometimes make it worse.

Yeah, that's very true.

Can I give you some good

sentences to try and

practice when you're trying

to set your boundaries?

Yeah, go for it.

One of my favourites is,

no is a complete sentence.

and it doesn't necessarily

need explanation.

So somebody might say, are

you available for this?

And I'll go, no.

oh, fuck off.

nice.

Definitely not.

not in the playbook.

Not in the playbook.

No, thank you.

Is another simple one.

Or no, that doesn't

work for me.

I use that quite often.

Oh, that doesn't

actually work for me.

Simple as that.

So how about on the

flip side, just giving

your calendar or your,

what works for you.

that makes sense.

So that doesn't

work for you.

What about just going, Hey,

this is what works for me.

Yeah, Bringo, that's

a great way to do it.

At the moment, I don't

have capacity for that.

And that's a,

that's a simple one.

Somebody might ask you,

can you come to this?

Oh no, I won't

be attending.

just really

simple and clear.

They're not mean and

they're not nasty.

They're just factual.

That sits outside

of my role.

So I used that one

earlier, didn't I?

We started to talk

about something else.

I said that actually,

that's not something

that I can talk about

because I don't know.

Classic one.

I don't think it's

helpful for us to talk

about this right now.

That's a really good one

in a personal interaction

where you might have

I can think of sort of

family interactions.

Yeah.

Let's take a break

and come back to this.

I don't respond to insults.

Ooh, that was a good one.

Cause that could make

things worse, I feel.

if you say that,

someone like, well,

I'm not insulting.

Like you could, I don't

know the way, because

you're, suggesting that

they're insulting you.

yeah, if you're feeling

insulted, that's actually

all that matters.

Because one person's

insult might be somebody

else's good natured sort

of ribbing or teasing.

you know, we don't

necessarily know

what's insulting to

one or the other.

can I, can I set a

boundary right now?

Yes.

I'm really

knackered and tired.

could we wrap this podcast

up because I reckon this

needs to be a two part,

like an absolute two

parter.

Like,

, I thought Julie

was just going to

start with no as a

complete sentence.

And just, just see

what he said.

No, I'm

not

In all honesty, like

I've known Julie for a

long time and, me, many

lessons I've, I've learned

from Julie, not just as

a friend, but, you know,

obviously of her expertise

in being a psychologist.

And a lot of the things

that I admire about Julie

is her ability to just say

no to something when you're

like, well, hang on, I

want to go out for dinner.

Why don't you want

to go out for dinner?

Well, I actually just

want to chill at home

tonight because that's

what I feel like doing.

learning from you has

actually allowed me

to not put myself in

situations that I either

feel uncomfortable in or

be just need some time

for myself to recharge.

Like, like right now, if

I'm being honest, like

I'm completely zonked

and as much as I've

enjoyed probably being

a a listener on this

podcast rather than being

an active participant.

I'm going to set a boundary

now that I just need to

sign off for the day.

can I ask a question?

What boundaries are you

going to set to make sure

that you don't go and get

a good night's sleep then?

I have literally just

texted my wife and

said, you can take my

Pilates spot tonight.

And I'm going to put

the kids to bed and

I'm going to try and

go to bed at like 7.

30.

Oh, I was in bed at 8.

40 last night?

And it was, yeah, I had

the opposite sleep to you.

Sorry, dude.

I envy it and I'm going

to go and do the same

Well, let's look forward

to round two where I

set you some scenarios

and we can practice

setting some boundaries.

Good on you Hamish.

Bye.