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[00:00:05] Jenn Syx: We name our criminals, we elevate them. We turn cruelty into cunning and madness into mystery. But what if the man who haunted London's East End wasn't a criminal mastermind? Just a broken, brutal. Nobody with a knife. Not brilliant. Not even careful. Someone more unstable than intelligent. More opportunity than method.
[00:00:31] This is the story of a city that made a legend out of a man who may have simply slipped through the cracks.
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[00:00:52] Jenn: Welcome to the house of Syx where history, mystery, and mayhem meets marital discord. I'm Jenn.
[00:01:00] Jared: I'm Jared.
[00:01:01] Jenn: You ready?
[00:01:02] Jared: Uh, why not? Let's go for it. Okay.
[00:01:04] Jenn: Do you have any idea what I'm gonna tell you about today?
[00:01:07] Jared: I don't. Which is part of this, right?
[00:01:10] I I come into this blind.
[00:01:12] Jenn: Yeah. If you were to take a wild stab, like just guess out of all the crimes in history and mystery, what would you think? I would choose? I Jack
[00:01:24] Jared: th ripper. Oh man. Was that nailed it?
[00:01:32] You cheated. I didn't cheat. I've just know you. That's why we're here, right?
[00:01:38] Jenn: Oh, there's a desk there. You. How did you know? I didn't. That's totally what I picked. Okay. Because it is history's true crime mystery. Yeah. Like it is
[00:01:56] Jared: You're a big fan.
[00:01:57] Jenn: The one I'm not a fan of any ripper.
[00:02:02] Jared: There you go.
[00:02:03] Bad. That's bad news bears.
[00:02:06] But it's The Quintessential crime of all the centuries of a k*ller. Sorry, I'm not supposed to say that word of a dude that did all the bad things and never got caught and disappeared into fricking fog.
[00:02:25] Yeah. So look, I promise that, I won't guess correctly every single time we do this we're like, right this, we're just getting off the ground here and I feel like I've just yanked the.
[00:02:36] Rug right out from under your feet. Yeah. Yeah. But I didn't, so yeah. Like I was on the tip of the stairs.
[00:02:41] Jenn: You yanked the rug out. I fell on the stairs.
[00:02:43] Jared: But as we know, I'm still not perfect at knowing all the details. Right. Very much in, in the dark. He cheated. Yeah. Alright, so let's get started.
[00:02:55] Jenn: Okay. Okay.
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[00:03:00] Jenn: So let's go back to 1888. All right. Okay. It's London East End White Chapel. London in this day and age was the richest city on earth at the time. However, the east end, white chapel area was filled with slums.
[00:03:21] Some crime. Crime. Not a whole lot of murder, especially of women, but there was disease, a lot of antisemitism. There was a lot of, immigration into the city at this point in time. And it just all divulged into a big old cesspool of mess.
[00:03:43] Jared: Okay. Both rich and poor, though
[00:03:45] Jenn: not on the east end. White Chapelle was primarily slums.
[00:03:50] Got it. Poor houses, lodging houses at the time, which is where a lot of people lived. It was pay by night sort of situation where they would be lucky to get a bed to sleep in. It was just, it was awful. Got it. It was really nasty. It's time to meet the maniac.
[00:04:10] Jared: Okay. Ready of,
[00:04:11] Jenn: of Jack the Ripper. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna set the scene a little bit and give some historical context because this is really important to this entire case.
[00:04:21] Most of this occurs between August and November of 1888, which otherwise became known as the autumn of terror. Women in this time period and in white Chapel, many of them were abandoned, widowed, or just out of work. Work was very difficult to find at this point in time.
[00:04:42] So there was very few opportunities for them, and many of them turned to sex work because it was literally their only option. This was a necessity. It was the only way to survive. And on top of this, many of them resorted to drinking and alcoholism because it was. The only way to cope with the escape.
[00:05:05] Their the escape. Horrifying their lives. It sucked. Okay. It was, it was awful. All of the women that were attacked were either known sex, sex workers and alcoholics, or they were very closely associated with those things. , But this was just the way it was. The location. Of the Jack of the Ripper murders in white Chapel is just as important as the victims and the crimes, and the media, which we will talk about later. And it's possible that these crimes could not have happened in the way that they did in any other time period. In any other place.
[00:05:43] Jared: Okay. I'm interested.
[00:05:44] Okay. Yeah, Are ya?.
[00:05:47] Jenn: A little bit of background. There were two murders before we get into the ones we're going to talk about now, and there were four others that happened afterwards, but we're only going to cover the five murders that are called the Canonical five. I don't know why it's called that.
[00:06:10] 'cause canonical makes me think oddly of like the Pope.
[00:06:16] Jared: Okay. Didn't see that, but okay.
[00:06:19] Jenn: Doesn't that sound like a pokey kind of word?
[00:06:21] Jared: It does. It does, but just, yeah. Yeah.
[00:06:24] Jenn: The canonical five or the five we're gonna talk about today, we'll talk about the others in bonus content
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[00:06:34] Jenn: the canonical five, we're gonna start on August 31st, 1888. Marianne Nichols, also known as Polly, so we're gonna call her. Polly was a 43-year-old woman, a heavy drinker previously married, but her marriage broke apart and she was fired for stealing from her employer. She had recently been turned out from a lodging house for lack of funds.
[00:07:00] Her body was found in Bucks Row with her throat slash twice deep abdominal wounds, and her intestines were. Taken out and draped over her shoulder. I'm gonna get squeamish when I talk about, I'm gonna not go too far into the details, right. 'cause this is some icky, icky stuff. Right? Right. I also absolutely refuse to reference crime scene photos that show bodies.
[00:07:35] 'cause I think that's gross. I don't even like to look at 'em. I vaguely got forced into looking at some because they show up on documentaries. Right. But even when I show, when I reference pictures of the victims, I will not show that kind of stuff. Oh, I forgot my slideshow presentation. I made a slideshow that he can see on the, um, on a monitor.
[00:08:03] Uh, this is white chapel. Gotcha. So you just look at the Yes. Excellent people. Yep. Hmm. I'll reference them in the show notes. Yeah, it's a map. All right, so these are the women that we're talking about. Okay. Alright. So yeah, so sorry for the squeamishness, but I can't help myself. She was found with her intestines draped over her shoulder, which feels like a choice.
[00:08:31] Jared: It's a move, , to be, I don't like it to make you, you know, make yourself stand out anyway. Yeah.
[00:08:38] Jenn: So originally the police linked this murder with the two that had happened prior, , but later examination of the case by the police at the time. And experts later led them to believe that her death was the first confirmed jack the ripper, , murder.
[00:08:57] Due to the mo one could argue, and I'm referencing. Previous knowledge from watching documentaries, which makes me an expert. Yes. Or mon, what do they call it? A Monday morning quarterback. Okay. That's what I am right now. Most serial killers have like a ramp up. They don't just start with their mo
[00:09:28] Jared: Right.
[00:09:28] Jenn: They start with other things.
[00:09:30] Jared: Most people probably don't start, if you were going to be, , this type of person or to that needed to,, take care of other people, you wouldn't start by removing testin and throwing it over your sh you know, their shoulders either. I, that's like from, you know, zero to a hundred real quick.
[00:09:46] Jenn: I don't think that, I don't think that happens.
[00:09:48] Jared: Yeah.
[00:09:49] Jenn: I've never been a serial slayer. Yeah. But I don't, anyways. And since we don't know who it is, then Oh spoiler, they never caught him. Right. Alright, so anyways, one could argue that this is likely not his first victim, but I digress. Next we have Annie Chapman on September 8th, 1888.
[00:10:21] So it's only been eight days since the last, Annie Chapman was 47. She had a long history of alcoholism. She was separated from, her husband, relied on casual sex work to get by. And the night of her murder, she had been looking for pay for her nightly lodging 'cause she had been kicked out for not having funds.
[00:10:44] And that night she was seen with a middle-aged man of average height described as shabby gen Teel.
[00:10:53] Jared: Okay. I dunno what that means. Yeah, I was gonna say, can you, you know. Elaborate on that. Look,
[00:10:58] Jenn: my brain goes to shabby chic. Right. But that's, not, I believe he was probably nicely dressed, but clothes that had gone a little, they were old.
[00:11:12] Okay. But nice. Okay. Once had been nice. No longer. Gotcha. He wore the shit out of those clothes. Annie was found in the backyard of 29 Hanbury Street with her throat cut deeply, abdomen slashed open and her uterus had been removed and was no longer. At the scene, her body was still warm when found, uh, suggesting that the perpetrator was nearly caught in the act. Right. I think this is just supposition because also it's 1888.
[00:11:46] I don't think coroners are down on body temperature. And how long it's been since
[00:11:54] Jared: probably a very wide range of what that 30 minutes to 14 hours.
[00:11:59] Jenn: Exactly,
[00:11:59] Jared: exactly.
[00:12:00] Jenn: Yes. But if, if she was warm. All right, so that was any Chapman. Moving on to the double event. September 30th, 1888, Elizabeth Stride was a 44 40 4-year-old Swedish immigrant with a history of domestic violence witnesses.
[00:12:25] Saw her leaving a tavern with a man that had short sandy hair, a mustache, dark overcoat. And a deer stalker hat. Think Sherlock Holmes. Right hat. Right? Which by the way, was not, the fashion at the time. So that would, that's an odd choice. Kind of stand out. Yeah, that would stand out. Elizabeth was found in debt, Fields's yard on Burner Street, strangled with her throat slashed, nearly decapitated, but she was not mutilated.
[00:12:58] Many believe that the assailant was interrupted. So around this time, a man named Israel Schwartz was walking by. He later testified and he said that he was walking by and saw what he thought was a domestic dispute where a man pushed Elizabeth down by her shoulders. When the man saw Israel Schwartz, he shouted, Lipsky and Israel scuttled off.
[00:13:29] Okay. Lipsky is a slur that was used at the time the year previous to this. A man named Israel Lipsky was tried, convicted, and executed for murder. He was a Jewish man. And this stirred up a lot of sentiment at the time. Some, some antisemitism that, was caused by the, not caused by, it's caused by racism.
[00:14:00] But, there was an influx of Jewish population at this time in London, and, uh, a murderer that is also considered a person that they don't want there is. Okay. Lipsky was used as a slur against Jewish people, so. It is possible that whomever did these crimes saw a Jewish man and shouted a Jewish Jewish slur at him.
[00:14:31] Okay, understood. The same night Catherine Eddows was found Eddowes, who also used the alias, Maryanne Kelly. She was 46, a former domestic servant who was fired for stealing that night. She was arrested for drunkenness and taken to jail, and later released from jail around 1:00 AM Instead of heading towards her lodgings, she went towards Mitre Square.
[00:15:00] Mitre Square at the time, had a police, uh, what am I wanna say? Patrol that would, make a circuit every 15 minutes and. Somebody around the time saw Eddowes with a man that had fair, but Rudy Complexion, is it Rudy or Ruddy? Rudy. Ruddy.
[00:15:29] Jared: Rudy was a really good movie, but that's different.
[00:15:34] Jenn: That is not the same.
[00:15:36] Not the same. It was a good movie, but a different topic. Understood. I'm gonna go with Rudy Complexion. Okay. Shabby appearance, mustache, red scarf, and a peak tat Eddowes was found with her throat slashed facial mutilation. Her kidney and uterus were removed
[00:16:02] This was the most graphically mutilated, , body seen publicly, probably ever. I mean, this, this maybe not ever but in, in this time period.
[00:16:13] And it was deeply shocking to the public. Catherine Eddowes Apron was found nearby, , that same night. And it was below some graffiti that had been written on the wall in chalk with Yeah, I
[00:16:29] Jared: was gonna say in blood. Okay.
[00:16:31] Jenn: That would've been on brand for Jack the Ripper. Right. Right. Uh, but I think, you know, I any event it read the Jews or the men that will not be blamed for nothing.
[00:16:46] I'm gonna be honest, I don't even know what that means. First of all, there's a double negative in there. Secondly, they spelled Jews, J-U-W-E-S.
[00:16:59] Jared: Okay. It could have been an uneducated graffiti person.
[00:17:03] Jenn: Ah, that's an interesting, extremely
[00:17:05] Jared: uneducated.
[00:17:05] Jenn: Yeah. Many believe, that it was not written by the perpetrator.
[00:17:09] , Some believe it was meant to scapegoat the local Jewish community. And, unfortunately we don't have any proof or anything related to this anymore because Sir Charles Warren, the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, ordered that it be erased. Okay. Yes. He was worried that if anybody saw it, it would cause riots and, and may additional
[00:17:37] Jared: riot additional issues.
[00:17:38] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:39] Jenn: Yeah. So that is the double event. Next we have Mary Jane Kelly on November 9th, 1888. Kelly was around 25 Irish, and a really weird coincidence with this is that Maryanne Kelly lived in the same place that Annie Chapman lived at the time of her death. Okay. It's not where any Chapman was found, but it is where she lived at the time, so that's really strange.
[00:18:12] Jared: Sounds like a really bad place to live.
[00:18:14] Jenn: Well, unfortunately that is where, yeah.
[00:18:17] Jared: What's available.
[00:18:18] Jenn: Mary Kelly? No, it's where it was where Kelly was found. Ah, she was the only, victim that was found inside. Okay. All of the others were found outside. Okay. So Marianne Kelly
[00:18:34] was seen that night with a Jewish looking man with a soft felt hat, a long dark coat, kid gloves and holding a package. Her place of residence was 13 Miller's Court, and she was found by a landlord's agent that was there to collect rent for the month. This one's bad. Her face was slashed to complete disfigurement.
[00:19:00] Hmm. Like, you couldn't even tell who she was. Her thighs were slashed down to the bone. She was mutilated beyond recognition. Her breasts were cut off and they, along with her organs were displayed around the room. Wow. Uh, that's pretty bad.
[00:19:25] Jared: Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and I don't even like, like I, I'm not, I don't know a lot about this type of subject, but you know, you always say that the more mutilation that occurs from someone doing this, it's 'cause of anger.
[00:19:37] Right. You're taking the, the, the more mutilation, the deeper the anger. At least that's what I've, I've heard.
[00:19:45] Jenn: I think that's true with stabbing
[00:19:48] Jared: maybe. So Yeah. Repeated like the number of, of stabbings 50 times. Right. It's, yeah,
[00:19:54] Jenn: I feel like the evisceration Yeah. Removal of organs, like next level and kind of, I feel like that's something different.
[00:20:04] I don't know if that's anger. Yeah. Agree with the
[00:20:05] Jared: agreed with the organs. I think more of the, the complete, uh, the mutilation of the face, that's just, uh, that's, that's brutal. That feels
[00:20:13] Jenn: like trying to remove her identity.
[00:20:16] Jared: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:20:17] Jenn: And maybe not her, her like Right. Her specifically. Right, right. But just women in general.
[00:20:22] I mean, it, it is quite clear to me, at least from my personal opinion, that this is anger against women. Okay. Like, this cannot be
[00:20:31] Jared: okay.
[00:20:32] Jenn: Just some dude.
[00:20:33] Jared: Yeah.
[00:20:34] Jenn: That's living a normal life. No, it's not normal. It's got a
[00:20:36] Jared: purpose.
[00:20:38] Jenn: Yeah. All right. So that's the canonical five. That's the victims that we're gonna talk about today.
[00:20:45] We will include other victims in the bonus content.
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[00:20:56] Jenn: Let's talk about the police activities and investigation and a little bit about how everything was handled. And by that I mean it was handled horribly.
[00:21:08] I figured. Yeah. It is 1888, so they have limited resources at their disposal. And this happened in white chapel. There is some jurisdictional,, situations that led to a lot of confusion here. There were three separate police entities that were involved at different times. There was the London Police, the Metropolitan Police, Scotland, Scott.
[00:21:35] Scotland. Yes. Yard got involved. The investigation suffered from fractured leadership, poor communication and rivalry. , The Metropolitan Police and City of London police each controlled different areas around here, and they didn't communicate. , They were, , they sucked.
[00:21:56] Okay. That sums it up. Yeah. , And because of this jurisdictional situation, the investigation changed hands multiple times. So it was, it was just all around between the three. So between the three, okay. Yeah. Now, I believe once Scotland Yard got involved, , they also started a, , commission. But I think that helped a little bit along near the end of the murders, but in the very beginning it was just a total disaster.
[00:22:23] I mean, it is 1888. Right. Alright, so witness descriptions and profile similarities. , I don't know if you recall earlier when I was giving descriptions of the crimes, but witnesses had reported seeing men with the victims shortly before their deaths. Descriptions include a long coat, a mustache, a hat, hats of different kinds.
[00:22:47] , Honestly, I don't think this means anything because this is how English Victorian men
[00:22:52] Jared: dressed at the time exactly. Presented. Right. Right.
[00:22:55] Jenn: So I don't think that has anything to do with it. But I do think that there's an interesting correlation with how the men man approached each of the victims to be fair.
[00:23:10] They were known sex workers. It makes sense if there was some solicitation activity going on, but clearly he put them at ease. Nobody heard anything or , with Israel Schwartz, he thought it was a domestic dispute disturbance kind of thing. But
[00:23:27] Jared: so you're just saying there's a lot of trust there between
[00:23:28] Jenn: the two.
[00:23:29] There was at least some level of trust where he could get them into a position where he could Right, he could murder them quietly. Right, because all of these, except for Mary Jane Kelly, were outside in the open one., Police were, were patrolling often right in the white chapel area.
[00:23:44] Mitre Square, they were making a circuit every 15 minutes. So he must have been doing something to gain some sort of trust before he gained control or they
[00:23:53] Jared: were doing something to gain trust.
[00:23:55] Jenn: You. I'm gonna cut that out. Letters to the press. During this time, over 700 letters were sent to the press, or the police, or they became public knowledge.
[00:24:13] , Crimes like this bring out the crazies. People were confessing to the murders right and left in letters. I, you know, people do that today. It's such a weird thing. Yeah. , I think some people
[00:24:25] Jared: look for fame in the weirdest way,
[00:24:28] Jenn: in the weirdest way. Out of the hundreds of letters collected in connection to this case, there were three that stood out.
[00:24:36] , The Dear Boss letter coined the name Jack the Ripper. There was a Saucy Jack postcard that was also sent to the press. , And it did reference the double event, interestingly enough. And then there is the from hell letter that was delivered with half of a kidney. Okay? Now, despite that, , all of them are probably hoaxes, right, that were driven by the press.
[00:25:04] Many people believe that a journalist sent them, the first two letters. The dear boss in the, in the Scy Jack postcard were sent to the press while the from hell letter was sent to the police,
[00:25:16] Jared: okay?
[00:25:17] Jenn: Now it did have a kidney with it. Creativity, half the kidney, creativity
[00:25:20] Jared: at its best.
[00:25:23] Jenn: The, the public knew about the kidney though,
[00:25:26] Jared: right?
[00:25:26] Jenn: So, and they couldn't determine at the time where that kidney came from. It was a human,
[00:25:34] Jared: okay, that was gonna be my next question. It
[00:25:35] Jenn: was human. They could tell that in 1888, but. It also could have come from a lab, from a school, from a morgue. Right?
[00:25:46] That's what I'm, yeah. It, it could have been, I'm pretty sure in 1888, I could go to 1888 right now and break into a morgue and steal a kidney
[00:25:56] Jared: fair game.
[00:26:00] Jenn: So we'll talk about the letters and the bonus content because they are involved. Okay. All right. All right. So let's, let's, let's, this is the exciting part for me. The forensics. Th this is where all the, this is where all the action is. Okay. All right. So let's talk about forensics of 1888. Do you have any idea what they had at the time?
[00:26:27] Jared: Oh, gosh. You know, you were, that's what I was thinking about. How, I mean like a brush and a, a brush and a,
[00:26:34] Jenn: what are they gonna do with that?
[00:26:35] Jared: I don't know. But you know,
[00:26:36] Jenn: like an archeologist.
[00:26:37] Jared: Yeah, yeah. Just brushing around, you know, in blood. Yeah. Yes. That's fantastic. And, uh, you know, uh, a couple of pads of paper
[00:26:45] Jenn: they did that, you
[00:26:46] Jared: know, uh, good old ink pen and, uh, not much is my point.
[00:26:52] Jenn: That's true. So they had visual examinations. They did have autopsies.
[00:26:57] Jared: Right.
[00:26:58] Jenn: , And they had eyewitness testimony.
[00:27:00] Jared: Not much.
[00:27:01] Jenn: Nope. , Fingerprinting was introduced in 1901.
[00:27:04] Jared: Thank you. 'cause that came to mind, but I didn't think it was there yet. Yep.
[00:27:07] Jenn: Nearly, nearly two decades away. Right. DNA testing
[00:27:12] Jared: pretty far apart.
[00:27:13] It's, it's way off. Yeah.
[00:27:15] Jenn: , Blood testing also discovered in 1901.
[00:27:19] Jared: Okay.
[00:27:20] Jenn: They didn't have any of that.
[00:27:21] Jared: So it's two big discoveries in 1901. Like really rocking out the, what, what it takes to become a good investigator.
[00:27:28] Jenn: One could argue that the Jack the Ripper case spurned. Spurred not spurred. That's something different.
[00:27:38] Spurred some innovation. Okay. One could argue that in fact, , the first criminal profile was in the Jack the Ripper case. We're gonna talk about that a little bit later. Okay. The first formal criminal profile that was written down and documented is from the Jack the Ripper case, but, , no crime scene photography.
[00:28:01] Even though photography existed at the time. No idea why they didn't think to do this. Yeah, that's, yeah. That's kind of that they, that they wouldn't think of that. And even moreover, in a, in crimes like this, the bodies were removed immediately and the scenes were washed. They were splashed down with water to get the blood out immediately.
[00:28:22] There was no type of sketching, or. Photography of the scene. Very odd. Yeah, very odd. And then there really was no evidence collection again, because they removed the body and, and washed it down. Although even if they did collect evidence, I don't know how the Right, what they would do with that. Yeah. .
[00:28:41] Forensics at the time were incredibly, incredibly limited.
[00:28:46]
[00:28:50] Jenn: , We're gonna talk theories. Okay. Who do we think it is?
[00:28:55] Who you think it is? Oh, that's
[00:28:56] Jared: really like, I
[00:28:57] Jenn: we're just opening it up, oh, think 1888. Who was alive then?
[00:29:00] Jared: Oh gosh. That's, that's, you can't ask me that. That's not, I can't even, you can't do that.
[00:29:06] Jenn: Alright, so we got there, there are actually quite a few, , suspects that have been brought up over, over time. , In the main here we're gonna talk about two.
[00:29:18] Okay. We're gonna talk about the two most likely, the most probable that it could possibly be, ? So we got two. We have John Montague Druitt. Look at this dapper motherfucker. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:36] Jared: Ooh, that's a butt part though.
[00:29:40] Jenn: Oh my God. His hair is parted down the middle
[00:29:45] Jared: significantly.
[00:29:46] Jenn: John Montesquieu drew it very, very dapper.
[00:29:51] He was a barrister and a teacher because of course this guy is, he's a thinker.
[00:29:57] Jared: It looks like me in school. It looks like he's sleeping while he is acting like he's reading a book.
[00:30:01] Jenn: Oh, I was gonna say, he doesn't have a mullet.
[00:30:04] Jared: Good one.
[00:30:05] Jenn: So he was from a respectable background. He died by suicide shortly after the final canonical five murder.
[00:30:14] Okay. So that is suspect as hell. Yeah. , He is the only person named in police memos from the time his name was written in a margin of a police memo. , at the time he had a reported mental instability. And while no direct evidence links him to the crimes, , the circumstance of his death or suspect, that's some questionable stuff.
[00:30:40] Yeah. Right. Yeah. So that's our first guy. Now we've got Aaron Kosminsky. I have two photos of this guy. Okay. One, there are no actual photos of him that we have to present. Right. We have a sketch and we have an artist rendering that was done decades later. Okay. A century later. Right. So the guy on the left that is a villain,
[00:31:11] Jared: right?
[00:31:13] And the guy on the right is
[00:31:15] Jenn: not, not, he's the opposite of a villain. Yeah.
[00:31:18] Aaron Kosminsky was a Polish Jewish immigrant barber that lived in white chapel at the time. He was institutionalized in 1891, which was two and a half years after the last canonical five murder. He was institutionalized due to auditory hallucinations in paranoia. Today they believe he probably had schizophrenia.
[00:31:41] His name appears in the margins of a senior officer's personal copy of a memoir. Memoir
[00:31:52] Jared: not the easiest word. Got it. That's not,
[00:31:54] Jenn: , That alludes to a suspect identified by a witness. This witness refused to testify, so this is something that was found, years later, but he did live in the immediate area and the murder stopped after his commitment.
[00:32:08] Okay, so there is some interesting. Modern DNA testing that has been done. So I talked about catherine Eddowes scarf that was found underneath the graffiti that was found, found nearby. And DNA testing was done not that long ago
[00:32:31] Jared: to just filed this scarf away for that long. They just
[00:32:33] Jenn: filed the scarf away for that long.
[00:32:35] They didn't
[00:32:35] Jared: anything else in terms of, at the time they
[00:32:38] Jenn: didn't have anything at the
[00:32:38] Jared: time that, you know, and they said we're gonna keep this scarf around. They did for another a hundred years.
[00:32:43] Jenn: Exactly. Yeah. That's crazy. Yep. DNA testing was done on the shawl and it had mitochondrial DNA that was found from both cos, Minsky and Eddowes.
[00:32:56] Okay. So there's some issues here. It sounds compelling. Mitochondrial DNA matching Cosm, Minsky and Eddowes case closed. It's not. . There is not a chain of custody on the Shaw. It was, it was stored in 1888. Right. And over the years it, it changed hands. So it could have been stored with other evidence that got got moved around.
[00:33:26] So this is questionable at best. It's interesting, but I don't, I don't know if it means anything
[00:33:33]
[00:33:37] Jenn: i'd like to talk about the cultural impact of this case. I'm gonna have a soap box moment.
[00:33:44] Okay. Up in here. Thanks for the warning. Yeah. You're gonna, you're gonna know when it starts. This is the birth of the celebrity murder. Like this is the case, and this is probably why I wanted to cover it because it's the first of its kind. Certainly Jack the Ripper is not the first serial killer.
[00:34:01] There's no way. But he was the first serial killer media icon. 100%. , The press covered every grizzly detail. , They were turning the case into this entire. Tabloid sensation. And for the first time in history, the public followed along as a lunatic, went on in a complete rampage in the city.
[00:34:25] Jared: Yeah.
[00:34:26] Jenn: , They were obsessed with it.
[00:34:28] Jared: They were, yeah. I was gonna say they're infatuated with this just as much as you are today, so, yeah.
[00:34:31] Jenn: Yep. And it makes sense that journalists would create the letters and send them out because people were eating it up. Right. Much. It makes it bigger and bigger. Right. It makes it bigger and bigger. , This also, this case also, interestingly enough, and I alluded to this earlier, is it was a catalyst for police reform.
[00:34:54] , There were jurisdictional issues., The police erased a very important message found on a wall. They were removing evidence from the crime scene, and because he was never caught, there was a huge public outcry. They were very upset. The people of white chapel were almost incensed to the point of riots because the police could not catch the sky.
[00:35:19] Yeah.
[00:35:19] Jared: And just, and, and I'll say doing everything wrong, but again, maybe doing everything in just in what they knew at the time. So it's hard to say whether it was right or wrong.
[00:35:29] Jenn: I mean, that's true, but the science was there. Yeah. They didn't know it, but the science was there.
[00:35:37] A little over one decade later, fingerprinting and blood typing , were established. So this really, I think, mobilized the public where, you know, even if you look at scientists that, that.
[00:35:52] Innovated these types of things for forensics. You have to imagine that this spurred them. , this case was the first documented formal criminal profile that we are aware of. Dr. Thomas Bond was a police surgeon and he determined, he wrote in his notes and documented that he thought this perpetrator was a white male between 25 and 35 years old.
[00:36:20] Of average, build physically strong, likely mentally unstable, but not insane in a traditional sense, probably living alone with solitary habits. He also believed that the perpetrator had no real surgical skill despite the press. Speculating otherwise. This profile was a major step in what would later become behavioral analysis, similar to what the, what the FBI does today.
[00:36:51] And his profile still stands today and is in line with what experts agree is the profile for this perpetrator. So that's interesting. Yeah, that
[00:37:01] Jared: is, that's
[00:37:02] Jenn: interesting. With no real training, he didn't have the education that, the profile, the psychological education that , profilers had today. The only real issues that modern profilers have is that, , he also had a sense of, , Victorian ideals, , and lack of training.
[00:37:23] So the, the timeframe of what he thought a Victorian man and a Victorian woman should have, probably outdated. Okay. Yeah. So I think that's really interesting. It is. It's, yeah. , But Jack the Ripper was the birth of true crime culture. , As humans, I think we're always interested in crime in the, I think human beings are drawn to the macab.
[00:37:55] Jared: I get you. Yeah. I don't know. You don't find yourself drawn to it. Uh, I mean, you're always, I don't know. I say that was in my head. I was thinking the, the good versus bad in terms of the right things to do, the wrong things to do. I don't know.
[00:38:10] Jenn: I think people are interested in the wrong things, even if they're not gonna do the wrong things.
[00:38:15] Jared: Sure.
[00:38:16] Jenn: I think there's a fascination there.
[00:38:17] Jared: Yeah. Telling me something about you.
[00:38:22] Jenn: Look, there have actually been studies about women's fascination with true crime, and I have to wonder to it, there is a theory that I've heard and I have not looked into this. This is not science. Okay. But there is a theory that women enjoy true crime because they are most likely to be the victims of crime.
[00:38:44] Jared: That's interesting. Yeah.
[00:38:46] Jenn: And so in a way, you're exposing yourself, I don't know, for preparation purposes to be aware, more self-aware. Yeah.
[00:38:55] Jared: I mean, that is interesting. , Horrible to think that way, but yeah, but interesting. It is.
[00:39:00] Jenn: I mean, okay, if you walk into a parking garage, what are you thinking about?
[00:39:05] Are you thinking about anything? Just getting into your car?
[00:39:08] Jared: Uh, no. There's, it depends on the environment.
[00:39:12] Jenn: If you walk into the parking lot parking garage during the day and you're going to your car and it's light out, are you concerned?
[00:39:20] Jared: Not overly, probably only, , 5% would be paying attention to any odd things because, , doesn't matter if it's night or day, bad shit happens.
[00:39:29] Jenn: When I go in a parking garage, I am scared 100% of the time, which is
[00:39:34] Jared: horrible. Right, right.
[00:39:35] Jenn: 100% of the time. Right. Because like I even think about if I walk in between cars is like the van gun. I will not walk between a van Right. And a car. Right. Forget I'm No, because it's gonna open and somebody's going Yeah.
[00:39:52] And they're gonna close it and they're gonna speed off. Yeah. No, they're not gonna speed off. They're gonna go calmly because that's how you get away with a crime. Yeah. I think about that when I'm walking through a parking garage. Yeah. I think about I'm, you're not
[00:40:03] Jared: alone. I mean, that's you clearly. You're not alone.
[00:40:05] Jenn: Yeah.
[00:40:06] Jared: Yeah. That's, I am
[00:40:08] Jenn: always scared in a parking park. I mean, its
[00:40:09] Jared: goodness, it's unfortunate. And then it's good that you're paying attention. How about that? Sure. Overall, it's unfortunate.
[00:40:15] Jenn: Yeah. And I, and I can guarantee you every woman would say the same thing. Right? Right. Any self-aware woman would say the same thing.
[00:40:23] This also speaks to this, just the enduring sense of sensationalism. For decades more, the focus on this case has been the horrible human being that did whatever they did to these women. And it has not been the victims. And they have been labeled as just prostitutes, which I do not use that word, but historically speaking, that is the appropriate word of the time.
[00:40:53] Right? Right. And their humanity was, I might get teary here. Their humanity was totally stripped away by the media, by law enforcement.. Just as it is, total victim blaming. , If they had not been sex workers, if they had not been poor, if they had not been drinking, if they had not been out late, if they had not been women,
[00:41:17] Jared: yeah.
[00:41:18] Yeah. , It would've been more about them. It would've been more about them than him.
[00:41:22] Jenn: Yeah. And this society put these women in the predicaments that they were in. Yeah. This was, they were not sex workers because they wanted to be. Right. They had no means of survival. Zero. They couldn't even sleep at night because they didn't have enough money.
[00:41:42] And it's just disgusting that they were put in this predicament and then blamed. For what happened to them later. It's just absolutely. I mean, it still happens today. Victim blaming is, you know, yes it does. What were you wearing? Right. Right. It's the same thing. Yeah. If they had not been sex workers, if they had not been out late, they would've been fine.
[00:42:06] Right. Fuck you. Right. Get fucked, get, ugh. Sorry. It's gross. All right.
[00:42:20] Who do you think did it
[00:42:22] Jared: out of the cast of characters
[00:42:24] Jenn: outta the cast of characters?
[00:42:28] The two most likely are Montague, John Druitt and Aaron Kosminsky.
[00:42:35] Jared: Okay. I'll go with,, Druitt.
[00:42:37] Jenn: You think it was Druitt?
[00:42:38] Jared: That's what I'm going with. You're
[00:42:39] Jenn: going with Druitt. Alright. That's interesting. Why?
[00:42:42] Jared: , Mainly because in the, you know, in the area, from the area,,
[00:42:46] Jenn: they both were
[00:42:47] Jared: educated, right? No. Agreed. Okay. , Educated enough to, , know the body, I guess, you know, it still doesn't explain certain things of, , again, I've, I've used mutilation too many times, but that's just what it was.
[00:42:59] . So it wouldn't explain that, , because I don't, , maybe he, we don't know if he was against women or, , he had problem with the ladies. , And I don't really like his look. He said I don't like his look. The, ,
[00:43:15] Jenn: I don't think that's how the police
[00:43:17] Jared: Yeah, that's fine.
[00:43:18] Jenn: Use evidence. That's fine. I don't think that can be submitted as he looks evidence, he looks just
[00:43:22] Jared: trusted, you know, like you can trust the guy, but then you realize you can't,
[00:43:28] Jenn: he did die by suicide shortly after the last as well.
[00:43:31] Jared: Yes. Canonical, right? Yeah. That's something to that. There is, right, there is.
[00:43:35] Or he might have just because he couldn't live with that haircut. But it's different.
[00:43:41] Jenn: It's not nice. I think it was Aaron Cos Minsky. Okay. Okay. Yeah, he had some mental instability. I mean, so did Montague, John drew it most certainly. I think Aaron Cos minsky's mental disturbances were more significant. , The murders did stop when he was institutionalized.
[00:44:04] Yep. , He was known to be angry towards women.
[00:44:09] Jared: Okay. That's important.
[00:44:10] Jenn: And that guy on the left is a villain.
[00:44:14] Jared: He is. , It's, again, we go back, he's a villain. Back to this picture, , the differences in those two, because the guy on the right is the most trusted dude ever.
[00:44:22] Jenn: He's 12.
[00:44:23] Jared: Read that. Yeah. And then the guy on the left is, yeah.
[00:44:26] He is a, a 45-year-old villain. He's a villain. Right, right. So I'm with you.
[00:44:30] Jenn: Yeah. I think it was him.
[00:44:32] Jared: Okay.
[00:44:33] Jenn: He's the most, but we'll never know.
[00:44:36] Jared: Okay. We won't.
[00:44:37] Jenn: Nope.
[00:44:38] Jared: Which is crazy. Right. That's the whole, that's the whole, , you say we'll never know. There's a 99% chance that you're right.
[00:44:47] Jenn: Um,
[00:44:47] Jared: fire, but you just never know.
[00:44:49] Jenn: We will never, ever, we've even done DNA testing. Yeah. And I have did not base my theory based off DNA. No, I understood. Because that's, that's, there's Right chain of evidence is really important. Yeah. Yeah. And how it was stored, like you have no idea. Right. You have no idea.
[00:45:09] Jared: All right. Well, there you have it.
[00:45:10] Jenn: There you have it. That's Jack the Ripper.
[00:45:13] Jared: That's Jack the Ripper.
[00:45:14] Jenn: Yep. We made it through the first podcast. We're, we're working out our vibe here. Yeah. Yeah. It's a little shaky.
[00:45:24] Jared: It's a little shaky. , Maybe I started it off incorrectly when I nailed the fact that we were going to talk about Jackie Ripper when I really had no idea.
[00:45:32] I just had a gut feeling, because again, I've known you for a few years now. A minute.
[00:45:38] Jenn: Yeah.
[00:45:38] Jared: So I know you so, yeah. You know. But, , yeah. We'll, we'll find our groove and hopefully everybody will stick with us while we find that groove.
[00:45:47] Jenn: Yep, yep. You can get more comfortable talking about murdery things, right?
[00:45:53] Right. Yep. All right. Well, we're gonna wrap up.
[00:46:00] Jared: You have fun.
[00:46:02] Jenn: Yeah, yeah. I just gotta get my, gotta get my groove going. Yeah.
[00:46:07] Jared: Understood.
[00:46:08] Jenn: Yeah.
[00:46:10] Jared: Well, I enjoyed it.
[00:46:11] Jenn: Thanks. All right. We'll do it again next time. Alright, we'll
[00:46:14] Jared: do it.
[00:46:14] Jenn: All right. Bye.
[00:46:15] Jared: Bye.
[00:46:16]
[00:46:21] Jared: Do you, how do you feel like it's flowing so far?
[00:46:23] Jenn: Whoa. It's um, I'm not loving it.
[00:46:26] Jared: I'm not either.
[00:46:26] Jenn: Oh.
[00:46:28] Jared: It's just a flow. Something about it.
[00:46:31] Jenn: What do you want me to do? Do you wanna start over?
[00:46:36] Jared: No, it's not, it's not you. I feel like I'm not saying enough. You're
[00:46:42] Jenn: not saying much,
[00:46:42] Jared: but I don't like, there's not much things I can say, so I'm thrown right now.
[00:46:48] Jenn: The intestines part. You were helping helpful. Yeah. What is it? Are we not recording? No,
[00:46:52] Jared: we are.
[00:46:55] Jenn: You're killing me. I had a panic. Whatcha doing?
[00:47:00] Whatcha going? Are you done?