Speaker 4: [00:00:00] And if that's the biggest thing to learn, I feel like as an adult trying to navigate healthy relationships is like, where do you draw the line of personal responsibility?

Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mindfuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become. We will explore all of the tools that you need to get through your grief, to move past those I'll be alone forever fears, and rebuild your confidence so you can move forward in healthy relationships as your full self.

Never to get sucked into the narcissistic spell again. I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.

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Welcome to the episode this week, I'm sitting down to have a conversation with two incredible humans. Their names are Behk and LAH, and they are the coast of a podcast called narcissist [00:01:00] gaslighters, and cheaters.

Oh my. And we talking about codependency, what codependency actually looks like in real life relationships and how we have all struggled with codependency, still struggle on some level with pieces of codependency and what that looks like. So LAH has been in a relationship with somebody who has had active addiction.

So we talk a lot about what that's like to try to be with somebody in active addiction and try to really hang on to the hopes of their sobriety and try to force sobriety. And back has had experience in a dysfunctional relationship.

And I have had experience in all of the above.

So we talk a lot about how all of these experiences were perfect environments to really foster and feed our co-dependency. And how we were under the impression that we were just trying to help, that we were just trying to give people the benefit of the doubt and help them instead of seeing it as rescuing and enabling.

So you're going to hear us talk [00:02:00] some real life real world experiences. One of my favorites is when Beck talks about how she went from thinking that everything was hers to fix. To giving it a big glass of not my fucking problem. You're going to learn some strategies to stop the self-blame and the criticism and the guilt when that starts to arise.

As you start to shift out of the co-dependent tendencies.

And we're going to give you some actual steps that you can take if you're just starting this codependent journey so that you can really dive in. And this work is important to name that it's not just benefiting you. When you change your codependent patterns, when you change your attachment patterns, you're actually affecting generations beyond.

So we want to interrupt the spreading of the ancestral trauma. Choosing to do this work, choosing to look at your stuff is so courageous. And we're going to give you some steps on how to begin that process. And then be sure to stick around to the end of the episode where I will pull an Oracle card. And that will offer you a message that you can [00:03:00] hold on to this week, as you stay conscious in your healing.

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Speaker 2: welcome back and Ella . I'm so happy to have you here. Thanks for having us.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Thanks for having us.

It's different being on this side of the. Podcast. It

Speaker 2: is. It is. It's also different for me on this side of the podcast having two guests at one time, which is such a treat for the listeners. I'm so excited about this conversation. It is exciting. Thanks Yeah, being on your podcast was, I would say, like, one of the best guesting experiences that I've had, and we'll link, we'll link that in the show notes if you guys want to listen to that, but just your, your dynamic together is so cool.

special. Like you guys have such a wonderful balance to each other and you make your guests feel very, very welcomed and like safe and sharing their story. So thank you. I'm so glad. Yeah. Thank you for

Speaker 4: being on it. It was wonderful to have you. [00:04:00] It was. It was a lot of fun. Good,

Speaker 2: good. Yeah. And as always with meeting more women in situations that we have been in, it's like the club that you never wanted to be in, but that you're happy that you found.

So we started, started talking about how we all got into this work and know that we all have experienced some pretty intense codependency. In our, in our relationships, be them more on the healthy side or more on the toxic side. And so I want to open the conversation with you both today about, about codependency, what it, what it has looked like in your relationships and how the heck do people start to shift out of those behaviors?

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's absolutely, um, yeah, I mean, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, It's a big topic and it was a big part of my life for so long and I was so oblivious to it. Even though I had [00:05:00] therapists like guiding me to this realization, I was just like not ready to hear it. But yeah, yeah, it's a big topic.

Speaker 4: I think for me, codependence goes hand in hand with like profound disappointment.

And then there's an elephant element of like anger at myself because expectations that I have not voiced are not being met. Oh yeah. You know what I mean? And I'm like, I have all of these things in my head that I really should be talking about and should be saying out loud and I hold them all in and hold them all in and all of a sudden you tie your shoe wrong and I lose it like a crazy person and it's not about the shoelace.

It's never about the shoelace. And it's such a difficult pattern to break. Um, especially I think as women, we just get so trained by society and the patriarchy and all of that [00:06:00] for so long to be small, you know, and to be easy to get along with and to put people at ease and not make people uncomfortable and not be too loud and not be too big and just all of those things that like you don't want a problem and so you talk yourself out of your own feelings until you can't anymore.

Speaker 2: I think it's, it's really synonymous with self abandonment and, and a lack of self respect. Right? Saying that gently because, to your point, Beck, like, society, of course, Disney movies, any movie, any fucking love story, like Any

Speaker 3: romance.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah. Rom com. Yeah. All of that on top of Our childhood trauma and how we were raised to believe that we were less than or had to to reduce ourselves in order to make other people comfortable. Like that's, there's a lot, there's a lot that goes into how we start to act that way in [00:07:00] relationships in the first place.

Speaker 4: Absolutely. Yes.

Speaker 2: Yeah. What, what were some ways, do you guys have like specific memories or examples of ways this really, like the codependency shown in your, in your unhealthy relationships?

Speaker 3: Well, how it showed for me was, I was trying so hard to take care of an alcoholic Okay.

And an addict. And just trying to keep it all together, and be that supportive person. I thought I was being supportive. But in reality, I was being super codependent. And when the relapses would come, I would just lose my shit. And it was, it was not great. It was, it was a rollercoaster ride to hell. And it was awful.

Yeah. So that was, I mean, that was pretty much my experience. It was just trying to like, keep so much control. [00:08:00] And yet, there was so much chaos, and it was just all over the place.

Speaker 2: Yeah, because what codependency tells us is that the other person needs to be okay in order for me to be okay. Right, that's like, that's like the baseline description of codependency.

I'm dependent on you being okay in order for me to be okay, which means I will do my damnedest to make you okay. Right. My own safety, right? Yeah. On the subconscious level that we're telling ourselves that.

Speaker 4: Right. Codependency to me before I learned what it actually is, people always say it's like the need to be needed.

And so it never resonated with me because I would rather not be needed like that. You know, so it's like, it, it didn't feel like that was what it was for me until I like learned more. about it. Um, cause it's really not, I would much rather not be the one that's feeling like they have to be in control or they have to be making things happen or they have to be holding [00:09:00] everything, you know, together by sacrificing their own wants and needs.

Um, but it's just, it's different than that. It's bigger, like you said, of like the needing for the other person to be okay. And that's not on. you, that's on them. And if that's the biggest thing to learn, I feel like as an adult trying to navigate healthy relationships is like, where do you draw the line of personal responsibility?

You know, like how much responsibility do I take in any particular situation? And when is it, am I taking too much or not enough? You know, I feel like it's very hard to find that line, but once you start to, you get stronger in it, you know, and all of a sudden you're like, nope, nope. That's a big cup of not my fucking problem.

Speaker 5: That's all you.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember. It is and I remember I did try Al Anon, uh, for a brief [00:10:00] period in time. And I just remember, I mean, their whole thing is just letting go and letting them do whatever they, you know, they're going to do. And I had such a huge problem with that. I was like, I can't just sit back and watch her.

destroy everything. Like, I can't do that. And I,

Speaker 4: yeah, that was Because it's taking you down with it, right? That's where the line comes into of like, am I gonna let us just lose our house or our Right. No, I have to keep the ship afloat. You almost get like emotionally held hostage in it of like, if I don't do this, you know, these things are going to happen rather than I'm going to set this boundary.

And if you choose not to show up the way I need you to show up, like, Bye. You know?

Speaker 2: Right. It's like, when, when they are starting to burn down the house, we're running from room to room with this tiny little fire extinguisher, like, I got it, , instead of being like, [00:11:00] I'm just gonna step away from this house.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And obviously there's a lot to that if you are, it's a literal house that you are, you share it together. Um, but the part of the personal responsibility, if, if we give people responsibility for their actions, then we have to sit with the uncomfortability of what they choose. I think part of the tendency towards being codependent is like, well, I can feel less out of control, less, um, uneasy about what you're choosing because I'm just going to make it happen for you and I'm going to do what I think is best for you, even if you don't want it.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was also with an addict and there were several relapses and several different types of addictions that he had and same thing. It was like, well, well, what do I need to do to make this a better place for you to make your recovery go better? Right. Like, that was not mine. Yeah. But none of that was mine.

No.

Speaker 3: I [00:12:00] just remember The whole time, it was always something I did or said that caused the relapse. So it was always on me, so then I was always trying to fix it. Like, oh, well, I fucked up. So let me fix whatever it is I did that caused you to go down this road. And that's a really shitty place to be.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. In like a sick way, it gives you something to hold on to though, where in that situation, it feels like there's no, there's nothing stable. So if you can, if you can cling to, okay, I'm going to fix this thing that makes us feel safe because we're doing something in our minds, right? We're not actually doing the thing that's going to help our outcome in the situation or theirs probably, but it feels, it gives us that false sense of control really.

Speaker 4: It's [00:13:00] funny to watch how those patterns repeat. Like, I always have to catch myself with my children of like, backing off and letting them just do things. Like, even if it's a small thing, I'm so, like, I will go to jump in and just do it for them because Part of it's, I think, ADHD. I'm like, if I don't do this right now, I'll forget and it'll never get done.

But I'll jump in and my daughter will be like, I want to do this myself. And I'm like, you are absolutely right. You are strong. You are capable. You are an independent 11 year old woman and you can do that yourself. But it's hard. It repeats everywhere, you know, even in little, little things.

Speaker 2: And it, and sometimes it's like, I'm going to let you do it your way, which I know is not the right way.

It's not going to give you the outcome that you want, but I'm going to allow you to mess up. I'm going to allow you to make your own mistake or to feel your own consequence.

Speaker 4: When, um, and I think this ties in, even though it's a parent child relationship, but [00:14:00] I really tried to not tell my littles. No undecisions that had anything to do with their body and their being when they were little.

I let them make those mistakes. Even from little things like, you know, it's snowing outside and they don't want to wear a jacket, you know, and be like, okay, well, you know, if you, What do you think will happen if you don't wear a jacket? You know, we start just like talking down that. Well, I might get cold.

Yeah, you could get cold. What, then what could happen? Well, I might get sick. Well, maybe. You know, and we would talk through it and they would eventually either come to the right decision or if they didn't, if they were still like, I'm not going to wear a jacket, I'd say, well, do you mind if I just bring it in case you change your mind?

You know, but it was still like on them. And I feel like if we gave kids more freedom like that when they were little, it would start those patterns of like, not needing someone to jump in or modeling jumping in [00:15:00] and forcing your will on others. I feel like it starts so young because all of my codependency, I can attribute to watching my mom and how she operated.

She's wonderful. It's not that, but she just overdid everything for everyone to her own detriment. She still does, you know, and it's like you see that pattern repeat and you try to not repeat it with your little. Yeah, and she probably

Speaker 3: got that from her childhood.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we are so impressionable like, I mean, as kids in general, but specifically from ages zero to seven.

That's why they say kids are like sponges because they are actually on a different brain, uh, brain wavelength that allows them to just intake information without discernment or critical thinking, like they don't have those skills yet. Right. We're just programming kids with how to be and how to act and how to interact in relationships and life in different situations and they're just absorbing it.

So that's why generational [00:16:00] trauma happens. We're part of the reason. And us in this generation, whether you're the first or the second or whoever in your lineage to start to start to start to do this work is so important because we're passing down. We don't, we don't even know what we're passing down on to our kids because much of it is in our subconscious that we're just subconsciously like handing the baggage right, right on down the line.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think about, I think about that so much. I often like sometimes will look at my husband and I'm like, is this going to be one of the moments she talks to her therapist about like this is the moment. And I try to like really be conscious of like the long term effects of it. And not be totally neurotic about it, but like, there's always going to be, you know, something you have to give them enough dysfunction to make them funny as adults, right?

Speaker 3: don't, , I think there's no way out of it. I don't think you can come out of your childhood with zero things to talk to your therapist about. There's [00:17:00] always going to be something.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. I just hope with, with my kids that they are talking to their therapist about different things than I talk to my therapist about.

I'll fuck you up in a different way, so at least I know I, I stopped one pattern. Let's not repeat the pattern. Start a new

Speaker 3: one.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Beck, what was it like for you to observe your, your parents relationship? In the codependency that your mom was in.

Speaker 4: I never saw any conflict.

Ever. Um, which sounds wonderful and you know it did feel very safe as a kid to not see any kind of like conflict or negativity or anything. And it wasn't until way later, you know, when I, was an adult and friends with my mom and could see it from a different lens,, that there was lots of problems, but they just didn't ever, you know, display.

It's like, you have to have those disagreements or those frictions in front of kids in a healthy way so they can learn how to conflict [00:18:00] resolve. I learned to just not talk about it, or like, just Keep calm and carry on, you know, it's not necessarily a bad thing to have an argument in front of your kids. I don't think as long as it's a healthy one and they see you resolve and they see you have healthy discourse.

That's how they learn, you know, but not witnessing any of that. Um, once I was in a relationship as an adult, I saw any conflict as like, you This is doomed. Like, this isn't how relationships are supposed to be. , if there's conflict, I am out. Because my perfect parents never had any conflict. It's like, that's just not the reality.

And I would also completely shut down. You know, if anybody raised their voice or, um, my, Ex husband was very loud when he got mad and he would, you know, yell and throw things and punch walls and like it was so foreign to me. I would absolutely shut down and just try to be as small as possible because it was terrifying because [00:19:00] I've just never seen anything, you know, like that.

Not that that's bad. I'm glad I didn't grow up, you know, in that kind of Chaos, but not having seen anything goes the other way, you know, as far as being able to resolve your own conflict and learn how to communicate needs and expectations and in a healthy way.

Speaker 2: So I'd imagine there was a lot of eggshell walking that you did and did not try to like set off fire.

The bomb of whatever the bomb was going to be.

Speaker 5: Yeah,

Speaker 2: absolutely. I can, I can so relate to that. I also wasn't modeled healthy conflict or any conflict. And when my parents did, when they, when they pushed it down enough to the point where they had to, had to have an explosion, my, my parents would separate and they separated several times in my childhood where my mom would actually Months or years at a time.

And so I also associated conflict with like the relationship ends, [00:20:00] right? So there was not, there was not a, a healthy modeling of how you have a disagreement and then how you make repair in the relationship. So similar to you, Beck, I, I got into relationships and I was just like, I'll do whatever you want me to do.

Like, who do you need me to be, what do you need me to do, what sobriety do you need me to take care of, ? , it was just like, let me bend over backwards and sideways so that we don't have conflict because if we have conflict, then this will end and that's an unsafe place for my little wounded inner child self.

Absolutely. Yeah. Ella, you, you also weren't modeled?

Speaker 3: No. No, I have two different versions because when I was 12, I was adopted. So, my mother, my biological mother gave up her parental rights. So, Which didn't cause any kind of abandonment issues. Yeah, none. get the neon [00:21:00] sign. .

Attachment issues, abandonment issues, I have it all, okay? So, my mother There was zero conflict, resolution, any kind of modeling there. And then, it was all explosive. Like, if something went wrong, she would just explode. And, We would all know about it. Things would fly across the room, usually at my older brother, because he was always the problem.

I figured it out early on because, A, I'm a girl, so I was like very obedient and didn't say anything to upset her. And then there's the flip side where I went in these, you know, 20 something parents who were great, but like Beck's parents. All of the conflict resolution was probably behind closed [00:22:00] doors.

Like I didn't see any of that. So it was like from one extreme to the other.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Which

Speaker 2: is the way that they were raised too. Right. Yeah. Go back to the generational thing. Our parents didn't, they weren't taught the skills of how to have healthy conflict. Most likely that era was not very self reflective or into, into therapy.

So, They were doing the best they can with what they had, which still wasn't enough in certain aspects for us to, to take away the healthy dynamics from them. But it is interesting to, to look at our parents that way of like, you know, Well, you didn't know what the hell you were doing either, like, right.

And if you're not stopping to question some of your stuff or your reactions or your patterns, you're, you're stuck in a very out of control place of yourself.

Speaker 4: I like to like remind myself that they didn't [00:23:00] have the internet.

Even, even for little things when, you know, kids are little and they're teething, like, what do you do? You go to the internet, right? And you text, , what do I do? Or you search, what do I do for this,, teething infant? They didn't have that resource. So it's just asking the people. people around you, right?

And so, like, what answer to make it? Well, just throw some whiskey on their gums, right? Right. There's no other voice of,, reason or body of work that you could look at or, like, any other opinion. And it helps those things repeat, Over and over again because there's just, it's lack of information.

Right. Now I feel like we have too much information maybe, but

Speaker 2: yeah,

Speaker 4: at least we have information.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we definitely have the most access that we ever had. An

Speaker 3: abundance. An abundance of information.

Speaker 2: That's the best part of it. The information overload we just dissociate into cat videos.

Yep. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, [00:24:00] when we can also address our own stuff with, uh, That sort of lens of compassion, like, of course I found people that I could be codependent with because codependence was what I knew and not because I'm defective, not because something's wrong with me. It's what I was modeled.

That's what I practiced for 20, years. However, however old you are when you get into the next codependent relationship. It's like, how else are you supposed to know unless, unless shit blows up and then you start going to a therapist or a coach, or you start going to a different program or doing some sort of introspective work, it's, we're like set up directly on the path that we're on for, for a reason in

Speaker 4: the

Speaker 2: beginning.

Speaker 4: And no one can usually help you get there either, like it, there's a moment of clarity I find that happens and it could be the most like innocuous thing, but that thing happens and all of a sudden you see it and you can't unsee it. But prior to that, like, there's [00:25:00] nothing anyone could have really said to help you get to the moment where you were able to see it.

So that's another challenge, I think. Supporting others of just, like, being present and holding space for them versus trying to, talk them into seeing something they're not ready to see.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Right. Like, all of my therapists before, well, I only had two. I make it sound like I had so many, but, like, them trying to guide me to, hey, you're codependent, and I just wasn't ready to see it.

Right. So you really have to be ready. To see it, to be able to understand what's going on,

Speaker 2: right? Have you guys read the book Codependent No More? I have read most of it.

Speaker 4: Talking about like

Speaker 2: a, like a light bulb moment. I was, I was on a vacation without, without my now ex.

We were still together at the time, but I was reading that book and I was You're marking every page and I was like, this can't be good. Why does all of this resonate for me? And that was my first moment of Oh [00:26:00] shit. I have, I have accountability in this relationship dynamic too, because It was easier to, to sort of blame him for everything that was happening.

And I'm not discounting he did some horrible shit and that was unexcusable.

Speaker 3: Yeah, but

Speaker 2: I also played a role in the dysfunction and the not having boundaries in the taking too much responsibility, stepping in when I shouldn't have, not leaving when I should, should have all of these things. And. I had that moment.

I was like, oh, fuck. I have a lot of work. I have a lot of work ahead of me, regardless of what happens in the situation. Cause I was still unsure if I was leaving him at that point in time. Um, but I knew whether it was going to be with him or with someone else, I needed to change these things about me.

Yeah. And we have to have that, that internal motivation. For sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. What were your, your aha moments? Do you remember?

Speaker 4: [00:27:00] Um, a big one more recently was starting to read that book, which is probably why I've only read like the first half of it. So I'm like, okay, I get it. This is loud enough.

I understand.

Speaker 2: It's so in your

Speaker 4: face. I think the moment in my last relationship was not, not even so much my notice of it being codependent, but it was a really simple Argument about parking. That sounds like really silly, but we were going somewhere, coming, we were coming back from a trip. And for whatever reason, we did not fly there together, but we flew home together.

And so he had, he had a car at the airport and I had gotten to the airport with coworkers. So I got in the line. Our airport has long term A, long term B, and then, like a longer long term one.

And so like the [00:28:00] long, long term one is where you always park if you're going to be gone for like more than five days or something. So I immediately got in the line for the shuttle for that and he's like, I didn't park there. I parked in long term A. And I was like, well, why did you do that? It's like twice as expensive.

And I wasn't mad about it. I was just like, why? You know, why did you do that? And he's like, Jesus Christ, Rebecca, the long term parking was full. And I just had this moment all of a sudden, I'm like, he is completely full of shit all the time. That thing is like 150, 000 acres. Long term extended long term does not get full.

Like this is just his MO and the light bulb came on and it would not go off. All of a sudden I saw it all. Every. argument, every lie, every piece of gaslighting. And like, it's all been bullshit the whole time. and I wouldn't let it go. And I'm like, was it really full? Cause I'm, you know, it's really, and he's like, are you really going to make a big deal about this when we're tired after all this trial?

You know, it's like, then the deflection [00:29:00] comes in.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 4: It didn't make me mad. It didn't, I was so detached from it all of a sudden. It was so very clear. Like, I have been buying this line of bullshit for so long, and his default is to immediately lie. Even when it's not of any kind of consequence, it's not a big deal.

Like, he does not know how to tell the truth. Even in small things. And it was, I mean, from that moment on, it was the moment of clarity.

Speaker 2: What a reclamation of power. Right. Because when we believe their lies, when we get sucked into the gaslighting, when we're in the fog, they have control. They have the power.

So for you to be able to step back and see him and his mess, that's so empowering for you to no longer be swept up in, in all of that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. And it really was just like that. I mean, just that moment of like switching it off of like, man, I can see it so clearly. And it's so obvious, and you're not even good at [00:30:00] it.

Like, I've known this for a time, but like, I couldn't, I just didn't want to believe it. It was a denial thing, you know, like, okay, I'm just going to give him the benefit of the doubt. And you know, I had a baby who didn't sleep for the first three years of her life, so I think part of it, I was just so tired, too, that I just didn't have the energy to fight it until the tiger awoke that day.

Speaker 2: Ella, what was coming up for you in that story?

Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't think there was like a specific moment for me. I think it was post Like, after I had already moved out and was going through my own healing journey, when my therapist Maybe brought it up, and then she gave me a book I think I have it right here.

It's The Making and Breaking of Affectional Bonds. They, oh, he kind of touches on codependency in there. Mm hmm. And then, Healing the Child Within, I was [00:31:00] reading that and it really talked about codependency, and , so many things were resonating in those books.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: That I was just like, okay, I get it.

Okay. I have to be accountable for some of my shit.

Speaker 4: Mm

Speaker 3: hmm. So. Well, all of my shit, but, but not all of it.

Speaker 4: We'll start with some of it.

Speaker 3: And then I just, um, started to write down the stories and everything and just kind of like get it straight in my head and journaling and all of that. And then I was just like, okay, I get it.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Able to see where the, the lies were crossed. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, our whole relationship was pretty much based on her lying to me, gaslighting, trying to tell me that what I'm seeing isn't what I'm seeing. And I'm like, but I'm seeing it.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 3: [00:32:00] And I would also blow up because that was what I learned from my biological mother.

And then it would make me so angry. Yeah. And the fact that I couldn't control the situation even angered me more. So yeah, it was just a whole lot.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You, you throw addiction on top of like a personality disorder, if we're talking about narcissists or Even people with narcissistic tendencies, and it just

Speaker 3: She was borderline personality.

Ah,

Yeah, so the addiction on top of that, and then, you know, there was some ADHD in there. It was, it was a whole slew of wonderful things to deal with.

Speaker 2: That's, that's why when, like, when, when women ask me, they're like, well, do you think that my ex is a narcissist?

I'm like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's very unlikely that you will get a diagnosis anyway. Right. Unless, right. Cause they're not going to [00:33:00] therapy. Yeah. So what matters is the impact that their behavior is having on you. So you with somebody who has borderline and ADHD and an addiction, active addiction, like they were causing a lot of havoc or, or were this tornado in your world.

And that's what matters. It doesn't, doesn't really matter why, but we, try to focus so intently on figuring out the other person for many reasons. One, because we, we want to know why things work, right? We're just like meaning making machines, but also when we're focused on the other person, then we don't have to be focused on ourselves.

Speaker 3: Right. And I wasn't focused on myself for years, like a long time. So that's when, you know, post leaving her, that's when I started to realize and started to, it started to all come into focus.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 3: What my role was.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I think you lose yourself slowly too, you know, like, [00:34:00] it's not overnight. I remember going grocery shopping like the first time.

after breakup and I'm putting stuff in my cart because it's something he liked or this is something the kids like. I'm like, I don't even know what I like to eat because all of these things that I do are based around other people. I don't even know if I like this or not. Like, I didn't even know what to buy.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Same. Same. Or just me. I had a similar experience where it was a, it was a weekend. I woke up like on a Saturday morning post breakup and I woke up with so much relief. I was like, Oh my God, he's not next to me. I almost felt like I was going to wake up back into the nightmare and then he wasn't there and I was like, Oh yeah, we, okay, we're, we're not together anymore.

Um, and then I got up and I was like, Oh my God, I have all day Saturday and all day Sunday to do whatever I want to do. And I was like, I don't know what I want to do. I don't know even what I want to make for breakfast. [00:35:00] It was, and it was really starting from scratch to figure that stuff out again, because it had always been like.

Well, what do you want for breakfast? What do you want for this? What do you want for that? And, and partly to avoid the conflict. It was just like, well, I'll I'm easy, right? I'm easy going. I'll do whatever. It's just such bullshit. Like we're not, it is, everybody has needs. I don't care who you are. And the easy goingness is a protective mechanism on some level.

Um, but I had to start with a literal list in my phone where I, anything that I did that felt remotely. Good, like, drinking coffee. I wrote down, I like to drink coffee. I like coffee without milk in it, like, and, and I had to get very, very basic with it, and then it expanded to, to bigger things. But that, that process is very, it was disorienting for me, because I'm like, how am I 32, [00:36:00] I think, at that point, years old, and not know anything about myself?

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Absolutely.

Speaker 3: I remember feeling so free to do like what you said, I can do whatever I want. And for so many years we couldn't, something so simple like going to the movies, she would never go to the movies because of that shooting that happened. So then it was like all this anxiety around it.

So there were so many things that we couldn't do based on her neuroses and. I was like, I'm going to go to the fucking movies and I went to the movie by myself and ironically watched Birds of Prey, Harley Quinn.

Speaker 2: the first time you go to a movie alone or the first time you go to a restaurant alone. It's yeah, it's like, it really is finding, finding yourself again. Yeah, definitely.

I actually created a whole course on that, [00:37:00] on just that, on figuring out what, what your values are, what your non negotiables are, what your needs, what your wants are, because Okay. That exercise for me was I needed someone to guide me through it. I'm like, I think I know what I like and I couldn't name anything.

So yeah, it was an important piece of my, my healing to be able to, to name it and to articulate it to other people.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Remember my therapist said to me, talk to me about a time where you felt like your emotional needs were being met. Crickets. I don't need it.

Speaker 3: What does this even mean?

Speaker 2: Right. That's right up there with love yourself, right? When people say that, you're like, you go a little cross eyed, like, I think I love myself. I don't even know what that even means. It's such a, such a big concept. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Let's just start with accepting myself, and then we can work up [00:38:00] to, work up to respect, and then we can work up to love,

it's a, it's a, it's a step by step process.

Speaker 4: And not being so mean. Like, I would not hang out with someone who talked to me the way that I talk to me. in my head. You know, like, I wouldn't have a friend like that. I wouldn't, I don't want to be around someone like that. And even just those types of unlearning, you know, of not immediately jumping to self deprecation all the time or to being critical of yourself and even just changing the way that you think, instead of, God, you're stupid.

Like every time you forget something, there's a lot going on. And you didn't forget a whole lot. You forgot that one thing. That's awesome. Flipping those types of things around, start to have such a huge ripple effect on how you feel in your own skin.

Speaker 3: And even the healing process, like I would, I [00:39:00] still beat myself up over how long it's taking me and I'm like, I have to put into perspective.

Okay. Yes. It's been four years. Think about how many years, it's 40 years

Speaker 2: Yeah,

Speaker 3: before all of this before I even started to think about this odd concept of healing So I have to keep reminding myself. Okay, it's okay if you don't have your shit together and all you want to do is just Vege out one day and not do a damn thing,

We feel like we have to have an excuse or be sick or some kind of something just to not be, rest, crazy productive, like of every moment of the day, I really tried to model that.

Speaker 4: Um, I don't think I ever saw my mom sit down ever. And so if I'm sitting down, [00:40:00] I feel guilty. Like I should be cleaning something or I should be doing something like, and there's all these things that need to be done. And I've really been conscious of not modeling that for, you know, My kids are like, you know what, today we're going to watch movies in our pajamas today, and that's okay.

It's okay. Yes. It's okay that there's laundry to do. It will be there tomorrow.

Speaker 2: That takes so much courage to, to do that, to, to recognize the pattern and to choose something different. And Ella, to your point about like, I've been doing this for 40 years. Think about, I mean, they say you do something 10, 000 hours and you're an expert.

So how many hours have we practiced the codependency? Like, right. That's a lot of fucking hours. So a lot of hours. So it's gonna

Speaker 3: take more than four years for me to like, get out of this.

Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. So it's, it's layers of healing too, right? We never, Well, I don't know. My opinion is we never get to this like ultimate, I'm [00:41:00] healed, fixed, never, these things never pop up place.

We just get more skilled at recognizing when they pop up and then making the adjustments to shift out of them or making the apology that we need to or taking the different action or whatever, we're just like, oh, I fell asleep there for a moment and now I'm, now I'm awake again and I realized what I was doing.

And we want to just make those periods shorter and shorter between sleep and wake so that we're not in a coma, but we're just taking a quick power nap. Not spending years with a person who we're in our, we're acting out our codependency, but instead of like, oh, I had a codependent moment and letting, letting that almost be the expectation that.

Those pieces will still come in because they were so practiced. So we can put in the hours to learn the new pattern, the new skill, of course. And that's, that's admirable and courageous and brave and all the things and give ourselves some grace in that process too.

Speaker 4: I saw, I [00:42:00] wish I could attribute this to a person, but I don't remember where I saw it, but this woman was talking about it was like a YouTube video.

She was talking about trauma work, and she had like a trash can that was overflowing with crumpled up paper, and she's like trauma work just takes each one of these things out and she would like fold it. Four ways. So it was flat and she started to put it all back in. So by the end, all of that that was overflowing took up like, you know, a fourth, third of it, a trash can versus just like exploding all over the place.

And she's like, these things are always there, but they take up less space in your psyche and your time and your energy. And they don't. wreak this havoc of like exploding all over everyone around you and yourself. Once you've really worked on them, um, and put them in manageable, in a manageable size. And I thought that was like the best visual of it.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's [00:43:00] funny how, like, I've always been very good on the professional side of identifying what's not working for me and working on it and overcoming it. Like when I was younger, it was very hard for me to take, , criticism, you know, and I worked on that. I'm like, you can't be debilitated by criticism if you're going to be a leader and you're going to be successful in this very competitive field.

And working through that and getting over it and moving on to where I can candidly talk about it to others. That I coach, that I'm mentoring and helping in their career to teach them how to do that. Like, there's so many examples of that that I could think of in my professional life. And then it's like, in my personal life, it's totally different.

Speaker 2: And to give yourself grace in that too, right? For sure. Like we can be The leader and the one that's taking charge in our professional life. And then feel like our relationships are a kryptonite. That's something that I see all the time with my clients and that I experienced too, I'm like, [00:44:00] I'm smarter than this.

I'm a much more capable person. Like, how am I in this, in this situation with this ex of mine and, and feeling so like a shell of a person when I present one way professionally,

Speaker 3: Right. Right.

Speaker 2: Yeah. What would be your advice for women who are, are maybe familiar with their codependency on some level, but haven't, haven't started really diving into the topic?

What would you tell them?

Speaker 4: Get educated for sure. Um, that's the first step. Yeah, read those books, talk to a therapist, , but then the work begins, you know, education like we talked about when you were guesting on our, podcast. That's our first step, you know, to attack things intellectually, but you can't just be in something intellectually.

The next step, then, is to really examine yourself. own stuff and do those things that make you [00:45:00] uncomfortable. Um, and you can start small too with just like a therapist gave me the verbiage once to say, like, just say, when you X, I felt X, what I needed instead was X. And she's like, and if you can't say that out loud, write it down.

Just hand it to them. Keep a journal. You can pass it back and forth, you know, if it's difficult for you to, but even with something that's very little, Don't write it off as, well, I'm just choosing my battles. That's another one that I used to say all the time. It's like, no, it's not a battle and you don't get to do that.

I still struggle with that. very much. It's a lifelong unlearning, like we've said, but that would be my advice. Get educated on it. Get what it looks like. Read that book that you mentioned. Um, Code One is a really, really good one. The first half is I can attest anyway. But then identify what resonates with me in here and why, [00:46:00] um, and think about where that came from.

You know, where did I learn that my feelings were not okay or that my feelings didn't deserve to be. Heard or understood.

Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2: Hello. What would you say?

Speaker 3: That, and then some of the things that I did for myself was, first and foremost, letting go of control, trying to figure out those places where I feel like I need to control things and be like, no, that's that thing.

Don't do that. So being mindful. of all the things that you're doing in a situation. Um, also just accepting that you are codependent is probably, probably the first step is just completely accepting. Yes, this is me. And, um self care is huge. So that was one of the things [00:47:00] that was the hardest was just learning how to take care of myself.

And like all the things, what do I want to do right now? Okay, well one of my favorite things to do right now is baths. I've become a bath person. And it's a whole ritual. So like just finding those little things that like really make you feel good to take time out for yourself and just, you know, you know, be in that moment.

And also, I meditate. I meditate daily. That was like, and I couldn't do that before. Like, it was a big step. Like it, I, I had to, you know, I got, I downloaded the Calm app to help me first and foremost. I love it. And it really helped me get into it.

And now I can just, Sit still for a good 15 minutes [00:48:00] and just breathe. And that was like the biggest thing for me. Cause I couldn't just do that. I always felt like I had to do something

Speaker 5: to

Speaker 3: stay busy. That busy body.

Speaker 5: Taking

Speaker 3: care of things, getting things done, checking my list, you know, but meditation is, is a big one.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Finding that, the stillness, when we, I think it's in, um, I think it's Codependence Anonymous where their tagline is , our loved one is addicted to the substance and we're addicted to our loved one. Right. I'm pretty sure it's Codependence. Wow. Coda. But it's powerful. We are so focused on the external and what could happen and the 17 million possibilities we need to figure out all the solutions for.

And that's where we're putting a lot of our energy is on external in order to, again, stay safe, it's a, [00:49:00] it is a self serving act if we're taking care of someone else, because then if they're okay, I'm okay. Yeah. So, Like shifting all of that energy back into yourself is boring first and foremost Really fucking hard because

Speaker 3: it's so hard

Speaker 2: everything in you is telling you that You need to make sure other people are okay so that you're okay.

So shifting the, the knowing that I'm okay if I make myself okay, it doesn't matter. I'm not dependent on other people's okayness is massive. And you, you like reignite your, this like renewable energy that you have within, cause you're not just giving it to everybody else or dependent on other people to give it back to you.

Right. So that, the meditation is uh, huge, huge in being able to, to pause for it, be it 30 seconds [00:50:00] up to however long, you can work your way up to 15 minutes, but being able to say, Hey, I'm going to take two minutes out of my day and do this guided meditation because A, I'm worth it. And this is good for me.

And the world isn't going to burn to the ground if I step away for a couple minutes. That internal safety. And it is,

Speaker 3: I don't know how to explain it, but like, if you just take the moment to focus on your breath and realize how good it feels just to breathe, is mind blowing.

It's like, wow, this simple little thing that I do all day long that I don't even focus on, when you focus on it, it's like, wow, this feels fucking amazing.

Speaker 2: Yes. It's

Speaker 3: pretty cool.

Speaker 2: It is pretty cool. Yeah. And, and I want to really validate for people that it can feel so scary. To let go of that control or [00:51:00] let go of that hypervigilance or let go of the, the needing to rescue other people or, or do for other people.

So also having a supportive person, be it an amazing friend, someone who, who gets it or a therapist or a coach, or like, you need some sort of support in this, because if we're going to take away the thing that makes you feel safe, We have to, we have to help you with some padding in the limbo space between when you can find safety within yourself because otherwise you're going to freak out and go back to what you know is safe.

Right.

Speaker 4: I think you can practice it in small ways too. You know, I think that people who do lean towards codependence are that way. With everything, like even tasks, you take on too many tasks and burn yourself out because no one's going to do it the way that you do it, right?

That, that age old thing. And it's like perfection is the enemy of done, you know? So like, we're not going to worry about how it gets done. [00:52:00] We're going to not take so much on, you know? So, and that's uncomfortable too, even the little things of , you know what, I'm going to have you Load the dishwasher, you know, rather than sitting there and stressing about how it's so inefficient the way that they're doing it.

Like, that's okay. It's okay that it's going to take them two times running the dishwasher at all. They're in one, you know, like you don't have to micromanage those little things, right? Just accept the help and move on. You know, it's okay. He can call and say, Schedule someone to clean the carpets, like you don't have to sit and stress about, did he find a deal?

Like, yeah. Call multiple places. It doesn't matter. You can remove that sticky note from the hamster wheel in your brain and you can not think about it anymore. You know, and like when you practice those practical ways of doing that, I feel like it grows and grows until it's easier with the big things and the uncomfortable things.

Speaker 2: And you can even name out loud, like, I hate every second of allowing this person to load the dishwasher and I'm gonna go upstairs and I'm [00:53:00] gonna do some breathing and I'm gonna be okay.

Yeah,

The dishwasher is like the pinnacle of all the relationships, I swear.

Like that, that can really make or break a relationship, is how well can you load the dishwasher.

Speaker 4: Yeah, and the temperature of the household, I feel like. Oh, man.

Speaker 2: Yeah. You guys are amazing. Thank you so much. As, as this comes to a close at the end of these episodes, I always pull an oracle card. Yes. And I would love your participation in that.

So we'll have you both close your eyes. And all together, the three of us are just going to tune in to the deck. I'm starting to shuffle here. I'm just asking energy, spirit, whatever this higher power is that's around us, what the message is that's intended for the listeners today. Oh, and one popped out.

Here we go. It's gut. [00:54:00] Look at that. If you're not watching the video, it's a picture of intestines, let me, let me find the message in the book here and I'll read you what the, what gut is.

Okay. Gut brings an invitation to hop on the superhighway to your own wisdom. Gut will not and should not be ignored. You are being urged to check that you are in alignment. Gut is where all of the answers live. What messages are you receiving? Are you stuck? Are you absorbing what nourishes you? Trust yourself.

Listen deeply to your intuition. Perhaps you are experiencing some discomfort in the gut. Know that this is a cue that there are certain things in your life that you are not metabolizing. When your gut rejects something, it's for your own protection. So heed the warning and don't continue to ingest the things, people, relationships, and energy that are toxic to your system.

Stop tolerating things you shouldn't. Gut balancing is a mix of listening to yourself, trusting your [00:55:00] intuition, and honoring what is right and nourishing for you. When you care for gut, it will give you a deep sense of alignment and flow. Your system allows for what is sustaining you to move through it with a sense of ease and vitality.

I think that's

Speaker 3: perfect.

Speaker 2: Yeah, trust the gut, man. Go with the flow. Yes, absolutely. Well, ladies, where can people, where can people find you and the podcast and anything else that you've got, got going on?

Speaker 3: Yeah, you can, um, find our podcast, Oh My!, on any of the podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, Amazon. Um, You can also go to our website ngcompod.

com and that's where you'll find us

Speaker 4: and our socials. Yeah.

Speaker 3: We do have socials, um, Facebook, Instagram. It is at ngcompod. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I can guarantee [00:56:00] if you are listening to this podcast and like the content here that you are going to love the content on Beck and Ella's podcast. So we'll put the link in the show notes.

You can check out the episode that we did the three of us together and all of their other beautiful content. Thank

Speaker 4: you so much. This was so fun.

Speaker 3: Thank you so

Speaker 4: much.

Speaker 3: I was so nervous and then it just kind of melted away.

Speaker 2: Oh, good. Good.

Thank you.

​

Thank you so much for being here and for listening all the way until the end. If you are in the codependent camp, you know that you are in good company. I hope that some of our stories have resonated. I hope that you have found yourself feeling a little bit less alone. In either having been with an addict or if you are with an addict. Or just other dysfunctional traits that you've seen in relationships or with your kids. Really the purpose of these episodes is to share real shit so that you feel like you're not in it all by yourself. [00:57:00] The beauty of this is that you can change.

And just like any other pattern that you are starting to establish or habit that you're forming or practice that you're doing, the more that you come back to the work, the more that you practice, the new way. The more ingrained with the new way will become. So no shame. If you're having some codependent relapses, as we call them. Back into codependent behavior. Even somebody like me and back in ELA who have been intentionally working on this shit for years and years. Have moments where we fall asleep, have moments where we slip back in. And it's just a matter of remembering of seeing and being able to course correct. Make the apology, make the request, whatever we need to do at the end of that realization.

So keep going.

And come back and use this episode to revisit those strategies. To help when you start going down the self blame and the guilt and the judgment lane. And to [00:58:00] revisit the steps that you can take. If you're just beginning your journey of finding that community of finding that support of being able to find the right books, you have so much available to you at your fingertips.

Remember you are not, not, not alone ever.

And if you enjoyed what we're talking about here, and you're like, yes, I think I need to start to reduce relationships a little bit differently. I have a freebie called the relationship or reset guide. And this guide is going to really walk you through how to communicate your feelings without feeling guilty.

How to navigate triggering moments without that immediate reaction, and then compulsion, how we can take some time and space to regulate our nervous system and make a more mature decision. And how you can feel secure on your own so that you're not anxiously clinging to people or things or situations in order to feel okay. That is a totally free resource.

The link is in the show notes. And as always, this [00:59:00] podcast is for you. You are not alone. And I have see you in the next episode.