Hazel: [00:00:00] Hi there, I'm Hazel Carter Showell, and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. I've spent 30 years coaching CEOs and founders to navigate the messy stuff of life, from selling a business, the loss of something or someone important, to repairing relationships and restoring confidence. Welcome to Endings.

Andy: Thanks. But it's not an ending. Actually, this [00:00:30] is the platform from which to continue telling someone's story.

Hazel: Andy Jones ended his career in TV and film to become a humanist funeral celebrant. His story is one of unexpected career change and finding something that, well, just clicks. Now Andy is dealing with endings every day.

And we'll hear how you can make them a positive experience. And if you are considering a radical career change, [00:01:00] you might just feel inspired to take a chance. In my conversation with Andy, we speak about holding other people's grief, which comes from learning to hold your own. And I'll get into that some more after you've heard Andy's story.

But first, let's go back to the beginning.

Andy was working as a TV and film producer, working on anything from big TV series with a million pound budget [00:01:30] to training videos for non government organisations. His work was varied and busy, and it took him all over the world.

Andy: It almost always involved travel, so I was away quite a lot, like several times a year. And if I wasn't away filming or on production, I was probably away five or six times a year pitching projects.

Hazel: He went from being freelance to setting up an indie film company. And the work was still coming in.

Andy: You know, [00:02:00] you have those moments where you kind of look back and go, Oh gosh, my CV didn't look like that two years ago.

What do you do? I run an in house video unit for an international NGO. Oh, now I don't. Now I run a small independent production company who make films for the whole international development sector. Oh, and occasionally we sell bits of our stuff to Channel 4 or the news.

Hazel: Andy's commitment and the contacts he built up Landed him a gig that took even him by surprise.

Andy: Through one of the [00:02:30] charities I'm working with. Their president is Jonathan Dimbleby, it's like, oh, can you do a film with him? And then two years after that, you look back at your CV and go, now I produced prime time political travelogues.

Hazel: Despite years of constant work and career success, something wasn't working.

Andy: And I was finding myself getting just tangled up in stuff that I didn't love, wasn't especially good at. Having [00:03:00] to keep putting tracks in front of the train so that the train can keep going. And just about doing that without necessarily being able to pay myself any money and having a point where and went, shit, I haven't actually been paid for two years.

Hazel: At this point, Andy knew he was keen to do something else. But it was the death of a friend and colleague that presented him with an unlikely new career path.

Andy: he'd had a [00:03:30] brain tumour for a number of years. And, and, and died and there was a memorial service a while after they'd had a small private funeral.

And the guy leading it just sort of, the words were fine, but the, the kind of, there were, there was very little of, of my friend's character. [00:04:00] Essence reflected in the service and this came off the back of having been to another funeral service a few weeks before that for somebody else that I knew less well, but again, just felt like I was a bit rubbish and having also previously been to good funerals where everyone present had come away with this kind of really supercharged sense of the importance of life and [00:04:30] living it all just seemed to coalesce in this slightly drunken train journey home that had a point, on the train journey, where I looked at Ellie and said, I could have done better than that. And she looked at me knowing exactly what I meant going. Yeah, I was thinking the same thing and actually thinking you might be quite good at that. I think you should look into it because you've been saying for ages that you want to do something different.

Hazel: Yeah.

Andy: So that point on the train home from my friend's memorial [00:05:00] service, Yeah, it was the first time I even thought about what the person leading funeral, like, oh yeah, so there's this person called a celebrant or called a humanist or a funeral leader who, who, and that's a job and there are people who do that.

And, um, so began to think about what that might feel like or be like, and read up a bit and went, yeah, [00:05:30] okay. That looks really good. Yeah. Maybe one day. So how do you go about becoming, you know, if you want to be a funeral celebrant as I did, you need to meet recently, bereaved family. And that's not that easy. So there's a whole other step in the process, which in my case was about meeting some funeral directors who [00:06:00] thought that the kind of service that I might be able to lead, stress might because at this point it's an unknown because nobody actually knows because I haven't actually done it, might be something that families that they're helping look after Might want so there's that leap of faith required to get from saying I want to do it This is something I want to do and believe I could be good at To doing a training course where [00:06:30] you feel like you have the confidence and some of the skills and learn a bit from you know

Hazel: You know the very few rules

Andy: Yes.

Yeah.

Hazel: Was there a point where you thought, actually, hang on, I can do this. I am good enough for this to be a career.

Andy: Oh, totally. A lot after the first one,

Hazel: really

Andy: actually, actually even before that, I think after like, so I did sign up and do a training course and I, [00:07:00] in retrospect, didn't do as much research as I could have done.

But at the time looked at some of the bigger organizations, looked at the humanist society, realized that I was a humanist. And it was quite interesting having a name to put to things you believed in. Yeah. Oh gosh. All right. I didn't know that. Oh, I'm a humanist. So then you sign up and did my humanist training.

But even during that training, there was like, I can remember coming back from day [00:07:30] one going, yeah, I'm on the right. I mean, I'm on the right course. This feels connected lots of different things because as well as the story about going to my friend's service and feeling it didn't quite, it wasn't quite conducted in the way that connected me to her essence, if you like, and other bad funeral experiences, I guess. Realizing that, yeah, other people's stories, other people's lives was part of the interest in some of the filmmaking [00:08:00] and also having a part of me that is, that quite likes being the center of attention, but is also a bit shy in some ways because I don't want it to be about me. And this, so in, and that's exactly the role in the funeral is that you, yes, you have to present and you have to be able to communicate, but if you're making about you, you're really, really doing it wrong. And yet it all depends on your performance, [00:08:30] writing, delivery. So you're crucial to the whole thing.

Hazel: It's a really interesting balance.

Andy: It's about all about how you do it without it being in any way about you, because it has to be about someone else and about everyone else recognizing the other person that they knew. So it's really interesting sort of combination of skills.

Hazel: Yeah. Well, that's the bit, isn't it? That, um, when you're doing something for so long, it's very easy to imagine or that you couldn't do anything else. And then I said by [00:09:00] almost. Chance you end up with a career that as you're really good at and can do is, um, I love the fact that it was from the very first one. Uh, and then what do you think you've learned about yourself through those 1 million words?

Andy: Wow. Okay. So on the one hand, I'm still capable of Making [00:09:30] bad decisions and not being particularly good at managing certain situations or elements of a job while still being able to really enjoy it. That's one thing. But. I have, it's such a huge question, Hazel, because I think it's only since I've been doing the funeral work [00:10:00] that I've also self diagnosed as neurodiverse, so I've got a really classic set of ADHD symptoms, really classic.

And I've only realized that in the past few years and have also started doing some really interesting internal family system therapy about identifying my different parts and getting to know my system and how these different parts of me relate to each other. And so [00:10:30] to separate that bit out of what I've learned from my own experience The work is, is quite difficult for me.

I guess one of the things I could really certainly say is how, without it being in either case, either in my previous career as a producer or in this career as a celebrant, whilst neither of them are about the money, the money makes a huge difference. And one of the things I hadn't imagined was how much I would [00:11:00] love the feeling of just of doing a day's work and then getting paid for it.

Oh my goodness. Yes. What a, what a utter shapeshifter that was, because that was becoming so rare in my film work. And now, I still do maybe, I don't know, probably about 20 days worth, I think, last year, of kind of film consultancy or media consultancy. And I've done the odd little radio series and things like that.

But [00:11:30] I'm really, really good now at not doing stuff. Unless I absolutely love it. And there's no question of getting paid, or if I'm doing that, that's a job and I'm getting paid.

Hazel: Well, it's being very clear, isn't it? That it might be something that people would say, Oh, to have the chance to go around the world and make these amazing programs, but it is a job. It is a job and deserves to be given the same respect in terms of that you can make a living from it. But I also recognize that it can be incredibly painful. Cause I, [00:12:00] I talk a lot about identity on endings and it can be very painful to sort of step away from that. I am a producer too. I'm a celebrant and I'm, I am intrigued of how it felt for you.

Andy: It took a while to be able to actually say it out loud. So whilst I was doing my training, I told very, very, very few people what I was doing. And I don't know that was, it wasn't, I wasn't shy about it. It wasn't especially [00:12:30] scared about it, but it was still just, uh, An idea, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm trained, there's a big difference between saying I'm training to be a celebrant and actually saying I am a, I'm a funeral celebrant, I do humanist funerals.

And having done my first service and the fee, the feeling that I got afterwards was, [00:13:00] um, A huge rush, and there's a huge, you know, obviously you've stored up all this kind of nerves and anxiety about before you do your first one, and just knowing that it had gone well, because you know, you can just tell, even though there were a couple, you know, there were, there were technical stuff that hadn't quite like it went massively over time, which To, you know, real

Hazel: a learning point

Andy: from a, from a professional [00:13:30] celebrant kind of way,

But there was a really good reason why that happened and it wasn't completely just my, my fault, but, um, that feeling of realizing the different parts of me that had become. that had been used. So the, the performing part, the, the storytelling part, the listening part, the empathy part, the helping part, all these different bits that like came alive in a really, really short space of [00:14:00] time.

And that's the other thing I think that's, um, there's not time. I'm really good at deadlines with, and after somebody dies, so, you know, generally it's, uh, roughly two weeks between that time and the funeral. So you haven't got the chance to get bored. You, you, you can't really put it to the back of your mind. It has to be done [00:14:30] because there's a service aweek on Tuesday. and after you've been kind of juggling multiple multi year projects that just seem to keep on going and going and so that's really refreshing.

Hazel: t A wo week deadline, that's it. Wow. Ish, yeah, sometimes three. And bearing in mind what you've said is, you know, you've noticed the difference between, uh, those funerals that are really good and like I say, allow people to connect to the essence. I was just [00:15:00] wondering if you've got any other sense of what does make a really good end to someone's story.

Andy: There's a lot to it. One of the things is actually, I think, about acknowledging that while that service is in some ways an ending,

Hazel: Yes.

Andy: It's an ending of a, generally this is a, coincides with the point of either burial or cremation.

So that's a physical ending, but it, but there's a [00:15:30] line, there are various lines that come, even though each script starts with a blank page, there are various lines that, that come up often. And one of the lines that comes up often is. That it's not an ending, that actually this is, this is the platform from which to continue telling someone's story if you choose to, to remember the things that are special to you and to [00:16:00] remember that that's how we live on in stories and talking about that, reminding people of that isn't just a little platitude that makes a funeral day feel easier. reminding people that Billy or Norma or whoever it may be will live on in your memories and stories and that you in some way have control over that is something that's really nice to remind people about. And the other thing I think is important is [00:16:30] acknowledging that People are many things. So being what was it? Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie who talked about the danger of a single narrative when, when this was obviously in a very different context, in the context of Europeans talking about Africa, but that reducing people to a, Oh, he was good. Well, he liked darts or, oh, she was a great mom, which is like, actually the people on many things and people have [00:17:00] many different parts and trying to have a degree of 360 degree storytelling around someone. is quite, I think it's really important. I think it's something I strive to get out. Even if it's there's things that people don't want mentioned in public, the number of times I get people to tell me things that are really secret or really, really private that never don't get quite mentioned out loud, but there's a little hint at them such that everybody knows, a [00:17:30] lot of people know what you mean.

And it's, it could be anything from just how particular they were about the way you put your knife back in the butter to something really, really important about how they never got over the loss of a stillborn child that they'd never talked about or whatever, you know, that,

Hazel: yeah. There's that [00:18:00] balance of truth telling though, isn't there, with people?

Because I think, you know, when people are alive, they tend to, uh, self edit what they want people to know. So I always think, you know, uh, have you ever, have you ever got that balance? Not quite right.

Andy: Oh God, yeah. Yeah, no, I've got that really badly wrong, even when the family thought it was a good idea and then yeah, um, I need to probably be a bit careful, but yeah, outing, outing, let's just say [00:18:30] outing someone as a kleptomaniac during their funeral. awkward can go, can go either way.

Hazel: Yeah.

Andy: Because what happened in this situation was there was the first few rows who everyone, that's hilarious. And then everyone, and then you could see further, further, further back. It went, there was people going, that's where my lawnmower went.

Hazel: It's always busted. And I totally agree [00:19:00] because even when we're talking about endings, something ends. Almost, and then something begins, it always does. So you think you might have stepped away from an identity of, uh, Oh, I just, uh, I'm a producer versus actually that there's so many ways you can use your, your skills.

And the one you've chosen that you seem very good at is being a celebrant, which is, uh, it's, it's a fascinating journey, but something new started. for something to end. Um, and I think that's the [00:19:30] bit about, you know, helping families to navigate something like that. And from my perspective, I know what it takes to hold other people's pain.

How did you learn to do that? Or where do you think that skill comes from in you?

Andy: I don't know, Hazel. I know that it's something I have to deal with, and I'm [00:20:00] aware of how it feels. When it's starting to get a bit too much. And what I need to do in terms of self care to try and let it out. So just having some decompression time after particularly heavy services. I'm not sure in what context you hold other people's pain.

I'd be, I'd love to know more [00:20:30] about that, but I know, I know that.

Hazel: Well, you know, this is also a conversation. So I think part of my work as a, uh, a coach and, and I, um, I'm looking at family systems. It's one of Yeah. So when you're looking at what could be. intergenerational trauma. And where, you know, there's lovely phrase they say where emotions flow through families till someone's prepared to feel it.

And you know, if you happen to be a generation that can feel something, [00:21:00] but just the same as I think the skill from my perspective to hold someone else's pain is the capacity to hold your own. Uh, I know I've done my work, so I know, and also there'll be some people's stories that just so touch you. It's quite rare that I find myself crying along with somebody, but every now and again, you think, Whoa, as you say, you check in, you notice that this is really hitting very close to home.

So maybe I need to get myself some distance. That's the joy. As a coach, I get [00:21:30] supervision. Um, I've been to know what your equivalent of supervision is, where you almost the vent, the pain stuff that you need to not carry because actually it isn't yours and know what is yours and you go and deal with it but you've checked it at the door you've not put it on the table it's saying actually that's my stuff and i'll you can trust me to keep it my stuff

Andy: yes yeah and that rings bells with with the kind of the needing to vent and the [00:22:00] as you said something like it's not yours it's not my grief and i think that's the The thing you come, however tragic it might be, it's not my tragedy.

Hazel: No.

Andy: When I was training, I remember one of my, Mentors, trainers, said that he never leads a funeral at which he would like to be a mourner.

Hazel: Ah, okay.

Andy: And I thought that was interesting. And then [00:22:30] I was actually talking to my son, who at the time would have only been about 13. And I was having this dilemma as to whether or not to do a funeral for a friend of a friend.

But someone I knew and my son went, but Dad, isn't the whole reason you got into this because you went to Cyn's funeral and said, I could have done better than that. So how can you not now do better ? Yeah, that's a good point. Thank you. 13-year-old son. Yeah. [00:23:00] and yet now though, knowing with a bit more experience that there's a way of helping. Like, like I couldn't do that for my inner circle, but I could help advise or could help make sure that process was done well without necessarily having to take the whole thing.

Hazel: But then it sounds like you've instinctively found ways to do it well, and that includes well for you, so as [00:23:30] in, you know, you can stay well, it doesn't, um, because it is, it is quite a thing to carry.

And if there are people listening to this who are in the process of thinking about or needing to organize a funeral - tips, advice,

Andy: don't rush.

Hazel: Okay.

Andy: Don't rush. Don't feel pressured into, um, choosing a funeral director or choosing a celebrant or deciding what day or what crem. Take your time. [00:24:00] Look at Options. I think very often, um, people think there's a way that you have to do things and doing it the way you've always done it or the way your friends did it, or the way you think might not be the right thing for you. And that might, could be anything from taking a day with your mum or your dad, who's just died and not calling anyone just be at home in the house.

Once the doctor just not. [00:24:30] rushing to have them taken away because you might want to have that time thinking about where you want things to happen. Burials and cremations can only happen in certain places, but that's only part of the process and part of the funeral farewell process. You can make as individual as you want.

So if you want to have some [00:25:00] of your farewell at home or in a favorite pub or on a favorite walk. You can do that. Yeah. There are very, very few rules. So I would advise people to look at that. There's lots of great information online.

Hazel: Oh, that's really helpful. Thank you. So, yeah, how's, how's the, how's the future looking now?

What's next? Any other career changes you're planning or is this [00:25:30] it now?

Andy: Probably, probably, probably at some stage. I started thinking about what the next logical step. Might be and I'm quite curious about how funerals are going to change in the foreseeable future and they've already Let's say 30 years ago. There would have been a handful of humanist funerals, but not very many compared to now When you think I've also, it's, this isn't a [00:26:00] job, but it's a thing. Um, started something called the dead good film club where we, we had one last night actually, and basically get people together. And the first rule of dead good film club is that you do talk about death.

There you go. So it's, it's, it's not like fight club where you don't talk about,

Hazel: you can talk

Andy: to bring people together to watch films that have got some element of. Death or dying to then have conversations about whether that's funeral choice or [00:26:30] the way we die or the way we live. Because I think that's, that's one of the things to go back to your early question as to what have you learned is actually I think the closer you get to talking and contemplating death, the more closely it connects you with how you live.

And, and there's definitely something about standing up with, in some ways, a final word, even if it's not a final word on someone else's life that can't [00:27:00] help but make you contemplate what the final word on your life might be from someone else or what the words may be. So

Hazel: that's profound. Thank you so much, its been really good to talk to you.

Andy, like many people, had to think about what he might do if he didn't do the thing he loves. And it's always a [00:27:30] tough moment when you discover the thing you love most can't pay your bills. One of the ways that is useful, and it's useful whether you're at any stage or if you simply are in a job that you think can't love it.

I think I want something else is how to make some of those difficult choices. The first thing is to figure out what you might be able to do next. In my time coaching all sorts of people, I've discovered the very best tool for deciding what you might want to do next or [00:28:00] finding what you might want to do next is really low tech.

It basically requires your CV and two highlighter pens, uh, different colors. The first color. You highlight everything in your career and your working life that you have loved. And if you've got hobbies or something in there that you'd love to be part of your job on your CV, highlight them too. As you're going through, you may also remember people, culture, systems, process, [00:28:30] something else that would never be on your CV, but was part of what you loved in your time, what you took that was really positive, because Every job you've had, no matter what it was doing, gives you something, and sometimes it costs you something.

And the challenge is to be able to leave that stuff behind, but think what good from that do I want to take forward with me? And you start to build that pattern of all the things that work, all the things you want to take [00:29:00] forward into your future that you've learned from the past. And the kind of teams you might thrive in, where you might flourish, the cultures that supported you.

Now, no surprise, the other colour is for all the stuff, if frankly you never had to do again, you'd be delighted. So, the teams, the tasks, the stuff, you think, God, that was awful. The, the tasks and the jobs you had to do in your career, again, you highlight them all and you say, [00:29:30] ideally, I would not do that again, or I'd do as little of that as possible.

And then, when you finished, Put it to one side, give it time. A phrase I use a lot is don't drink weak tea, let it brew. So you need time to reflect, to look at the patterns, to step back. And when you get a sense of, ah, so what job allows me to do all of the things I'm good at. And not the stuff I'm not.[00:30:00]

Andy discovered, for example, his main talent is telling untold stories. And although you wouldn't expect it, and no one would probably think of a celebrant as an alternative to, uh, an indie producer, actually it's perfect because it plays on his absolute strengths, his relationships and ability to form strong bonds with people, the ability to be trusted really quickly that he learned as he travelled all over the world, meeting different people.

And that [00:30:30] capacity he was able to take. So don't try to think about the job. Think about what you'll do. Think about who you'll be. Think about the qualities you'll want to express. And then start to think about, so what environments would that be? be true in? What jobs might I be able to do those things in?

And it, you create your own checklist in a way. So as you see new roles come up, you can look at your checklist and say, does this role allow me to do [00:31:00] all of the things I'm good at? All of the things I love that bring me joy in my life, that give me energy. And does it avoid or eradicate all the things in my life that basically kick the joy out of life that.suck my energy dry, that act as a mood hoover and make, leave me feeling really bad about myself. So you start to get a very different sense of what that role might be. And, and if you're modest, I'll give you a tip. You probably haven't built on your [00:31:30] strengths enough. You've probably played them down. So go and talk to somebody you really trust.

Ask them, what do you value about me? What do you think people enjoy about having me as a team member and colleague? Listen to what they say. Yes, it will probably make you blush or squirm. That's okay. But you know, CVs are a selling document after all. So make sure that all of the stuff that's really good about you goes into that CV.

All of the [00:32:00] things that other people who really rate you and value you tell you about yourself. And you can say, this is what I'm told, this is my 360 feedback. You don't have to sound like a big head and brag all the way through your CV. You can, however, not undersell yourself. And what you can quietly do is all the things you'd frankly never want to do again, you drop it, or you might briefly reference it.

I have got these skills, if required. But it's not what you're prioritizing. It's [00:32:30] not what you're focusing on. So I find I've helped people to make the most phenomenal transitions to roles they would never have expected with a simple set of two highlighter pens. And it is amazing what you can do. With just that.

And if you think about that strengths based approach, which is a positive psychology approach that I particularly rate, you're not worrying about what you can't do, you're not worrying about what you're no good at. You [00:33:00] can shut up the imposter syndrome or noisy inner critic and say, actually, it doesn't matter that I'm no good at that stuff.

I'm looking for where I can really flourish doing the things I'm really good at, and I can be honest about not so good at that, but you know what? My superpower is this, what I'm really good at is that, and to do it with real confidence as you look somebody in the eye, because you can believe in that, because it's true.[00:33:30]

My deep thanks to Andy Jones for sharing his story. I hope you enjoyed this episode of Endings. If you'd like to share your thought, I would love to hear them. You can reach me at Hazel Showell on LinkedIn. Or HazelCS on X. I also have a different future worksheet that's specifically for listeners of this podcast [00:34:00] for people who are thinking about a radical career change.

It's based on years of research into endings of all kinds, and I won't ask for your details to get it if you need it. You can have it. Click the link in the show notes to download your worksheet now. Finally, if you know someone who might benefit from hearing about, having to end their career, to find the one they could love just as much or even more, Then do share this episode with them.

I'm Hazel Showell, [00:34:30] and I hope you'll join me again for another episode of Endings.