Donald Miller edited
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Introduction and Setting the Stage
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[00:00:00] This show is powered by others over self. Hit that subscribe button to keep training your brain.
[00:00:06]
[00:00:09] They say, well, Don, you know, you're
[00:00:10] special, you're different. You wrote a book, what you know it takes, it takes risk after risk, after risk after.
[00:00:17] Shelly Rood: From others over self. It's hardcore and at ease. A show about people who are keeping their edge without going over the [00:01:00] edge
[00:01:14] .
[00:01:14] Shelly: Picture this: I'm grinding it out on the treadmill at the gym, sweat dripping, trying to push through that mental wall we all hit around mile two. I've got my earbuds in, listening to some business podcast, when this voice cuts through my workout fog. The guy is explaining how building a business is like the different parts of an airplane—the wings, the engine, the navigation system—and how each component has to work perfectly or the whole thing crashes.
[00:01:42] Shelly: Now, as a former Military Intelligence Captain, I've heard a lot of analogies in my day. Most of them are garbage. But this one? This one stopped me cold. Actually, it made me speed up. My pace on that treadmill quickened because someone finally explained business strategy in a way that made complete sense to my military-trained brain.
[00:01:55] Shelly: That voice belonged to Donald Miller, and in that moment, [00:02:00] I knew I had to get him on this show.
[00:02:01] Shelly: Here's what fascinates me about Donald: He's one of those people who seems to be running downhill while the rest of us are battling uphill. Twenty-nine years ago, he started as a writer with big dreams and a Volkswagen van. Fast forward to today, and he's a New York Times bestselling author with over ten books who somehow managed to completely reinvent himself as a business leader running a company with 35 employees.
[00:02:29] Shelly: But it's not just the professional success that caught my attention. After we recorded this interview, I had the chance to attend one of his live workshops at the StoryBrand headquarters in Nashville. I walked into this beautifully designed studio—and as someone with a background in broadcast television and a serious gear addiction, I notice these things—the clean, healthy food, the warm atmosphere, that perfectly crafted bougie coffee, and the level of excellence that went into [00:03:00] every single detail.
[00:03:05] Shelly: What struck me most wasn't the impressive setup, though. It was watching Donald mentor our small group of 40 coaches. There was something different about how he moved through the world, how he approached challenges, how he seemed to make the difficult look effortless.
[00:03:23] Shelly: That's what we're diving into today: What separates the leaders who seem to glide through obstacles from those who constantly feel like they're fighting upstream? What do they know that others don't?
[00:03:35] Shelly: Now, here's my interview with Donald Miller.
Donald Miller's Journey: From Memoirs to Business
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[00:03:39] Shelly Rood: Now, when I was researching who Donald Miller was, my first perception was you as an accomplished businessman. And I know that that's who you are in this decade of life.
[00:03:52] Donald Miller: Yeah.
[00:03:52] Shelly Rood: But as I started to look deeper into you as a human being, I uncovered this beautiful multitude of [00:04:00] memoirs that you have published over the years.
[00:04:01] Shelly Rood: Would you tell me about those?
[00:04:03] Donald Miller: Yeah. Well, that's how I got my start, uh, you know, close to 30 years ago. That's been a long time. Uh, I, I just want, I always wanted to be a writer and, and read a lot and, and sort of practiced a lot and didn't know what to write about. So I thought, well, you know, I took this trip across the country in a Volkswagen van.
[00:04:21] Donald Miller: Maybe I'll just write about that. I'll reflect on what happened on that trip. And then sort of got hooked on writing this sort of memoir. It, I was practiced at, it, had written one book and then, um, attended. Audited classes at the most Godless campus in America, Reed College. And the average IQ was a a point or two above genius.
[00:04:42] Donald Miller: And so it was a really unique experience and then wrote another book about that. And weirdly, that book hit the New York Times for like 40, 40 something weeks. And that sort of established me as a memoirist. And then, um, and just kept writing and, and then, you know, [00:05:00] seventh or eighth memoir style book. It was probably time to pivot and so I took a chance and wrote a book about narrative structures and plot devices.
[00:05:09] Donald Miller: That could be used in marketing. So I wrote a business book and that book took off and gave me a second career. So, you know, I, I feel like I've, I've been struck by lightning twice, but you know, you have a much higher chance of being struck by lightning if you walk around the golf course in the rain.
[00:05:26] Donald Miller: That's what I've been, that's what I've been doing.
[00:05:28] Shelly Rood: So your shift from memoirs into the business world. Was that like what decade of your life?
[00:05:33] Donald Miller: That was probably a decade ago, so, well, it wasn't probably a decade ago. It was a decade ago. So right when I got married, I got married later than the average person at 42,
[00:05:43] Shelly Rood: which I love, by the way.
[00:05:44] Donald Miller: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't do it any other way. I found the right woman. But the, um, you know, that was the beginning of me being a business writer and, uh, I didn't. Wasn't trying to make it work, wasn't trying to have a second career. It was literally just, I think I'm gonna write another book [00:06:00] and I think it's gonna be a business book.
[00:06:01] Donald Miller: And that turned into another New York Times bestseller, which, uh, you know, gave me the chance to do some consulting and then start certifying coaches in my frameworks. And all of a sudden I've got, you know, 35 employees and, uh, and life just looks really, really different. Uh, and I, and I have loved both careers.
[00:06:22] Donald Miller: I mean, both of those careers have just been an absolute joy. Uh, I feel like to some degree the luckiest person alive. I know a lot of that is. Hard work, but you know, it takes luck also. And, uh, so I've worked very hard and, and also, you know, you gotta work really hard to buy enough lottery tickets to, to win one.
[00:06:45] Donald Miller: That's a good philosophy. But, you know, it couldn't have got, it could have gone worse. It has for some people. But this one worked out.
[00:06:52] Shelly Rood: It could have. It could have.
The Mindset of Resilience and Risk-Taking
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[00:06:54] Shelly Rood: So we're talking about the word hardcore and. I have gotten to know you on a few different levels, and I'm not sure which way you're gonna go in answering our, our main question here, but what is it, what is the most hardcore thing that Donald Miller has ever done?
[00:07:12] Donald Miller: Well, you know, uh, I mean, I think, I think there's a part of my personality that does not, um. It does not hyperfocus on the negative thing that could happen if we tried something. It hyper focuses on the positive thing that could happen. Uh, if there's a 2% chance something can work out, I say, let's go for it.
[00:07:39] Donald Miller: Hmm. Um, I married a woman who if there's a 2% chance, things won't work, let's not do it. And so we, we really do balance each other out and it's fun to get her. Her take, and, and she will always figure out what's the worst possible thing that could happen. Uh, and so it's, it's been interesting. She has helped me realize that I'm just wired very, very differently.
[00:07:58] Donald Miller: So. You [00:08:00] know, I've taken a lot of risks and writing a book and starting a writing career is a risk. And, um, you know, uh, starting a business consulting career when you've never been a business consultant mm-hmm. Uh, was risky. We live on 15 acres where we've built a, an event center in the backyard and a guest house, and we entertain.
[00:08:23] Donald Miller: Over a thousand people for dinner every year and over 500 overnight guests. We basically run a free bed and breakfast.
[00:08:29] Shelly Rood: That's incredible. Because
[00:08:30] Donald Miller: Yeah, because we wanted to live in a place and wanted to raise a family in a place that just wasn't normal. We wanted to raise a, a family in a place where we were serving other people.
[00:08:39] Donald Miller: Who were bringing very, very good ideas into the world. Uh, took a risk, brought Andrew Yang, the last Democratic presidential candidate standing before Biden and Michael Steele, who was former head of the Republican National Convention, brought them here mm-hmm. For two days to talk about how to fix the country.
[00:08:57] Donald Miller: You know, a lot of people just don't think they can do [00:09:00] things like that. And they say, well, Don, you know, you're special, you're different. You wrote a book, what you know it takes, it takes risk after risk, after risk, after risk, after risk.
[00:09:11] Shelly Rood: You didn't write one book?
[00:09:13] Shelly Rood: No. I mean, I, there's 10 or 12 now, but I, I think that it, it's, it's, you know, the hardcore stuff doesn't, to people who take a lot of risks and accomplish a lot, nothing, nothing seems hardcore. It seems very practical to do it. Mm-hmm. And, um, and it seems like, well, there's a chance we could, we could make it happen, so we should take that chance.
[00:09:35] Donald Miller: And by the way, if it doesn't work out, you, you, you tend to forget about that in seconds. I mean, you, you know, somebody said, what are some of the worst mistakes you've ever made? It actually be very hard for me to answer that because I don't remember them. Uh, I, there's been dozens Talk to my wife, she'll, she's got a list, but I, you know, I, I can't remember them.
[00:09:53] Donald Miller: And that's such an incredible. Mindset to be in because there are so many people that can't look past what [00:10:00] they view as the mistakes that they've made in life. Oh, you have to and, and if I could give anything to your audience, it's that it's permission to look past and, and not only permission, I think you have a duty.
[00:10:14] Donald Miller: To look past your mistakes, you know, because if, if you can save somebody's life, or if you can inspire somebody, or if you can encourage somebody or, or if you can raise a great child, or be a great spouse, or be a good friend to somebody, then what that says to me is that you are useful. And not only you are useful.
[00:10:38] Donald Miller: You are needed and you are necessary. And if you get taken out by self-talk because you have made some mistake, I. Then, then you're no, you're no longer useful. You're no longer, you don't, you're no longer necessary. You're no longer doing the thing that we need you to do to make society work. So
[00:10:56] Shelly Rood: even within your own head, right, the self talk yout necessarily, what comes [00:11:00] out, you're taking out,
[00:11:00] Donald Miller: you're the one taking yourself out.
[00:11:01] Donald Miller: Nobody's taking you out. People are actually incredibly forgiving and incredibly kind and incredibly gracious. You're the. You're the one being mean to yourself. Why do you do that? You're your worst bully. Cut it out. You know, and, and, and even more if you've made some mistakes and you've hurt some people, all the more reason to get up and help some people.
[00:11:22] Shelly Rood: All the
[00:11:22] Donald Miller: more reason. All the more reason. 'cause now you owe the world. And uh, and you know, I just think that the number one trait that will predict anybody's usefulness. And success is resiliency. Uh, how many times can you get knocked down and get back up? And if you can get back up and keep getting back up, then there's just no possible way you're not gonna succeed in life.
[00:11:48] Donald Miller: And, and by the way, it, it's go, it happens to everybody.
[00:11:52] Shelly Rood: Everybody mistake
[00:11:53] Donald Miller: after mistake after mistake. I remember in business, Jeff Bezos said, we've, o we've really only hit two grand Slam home runs, [00:12:00] but Amazon Prime and Amazon Web Services, that's it. You know, nobody remembers that they had a phone. Did you know they had a phone?
[00:12:08] Donald Miller: They had a phone. They released a phone, and it failed. And it failed. Yeah. I mean, on and on and on. Mistake after mistake, after mistake after mistake, all the ha hit two grand slam home runs that made him one of the wealthiest per people in the world. So what happens if. The 50th mistake, he decides to quit.
[00:12:24] Donald Miller: Well, he never creates Amazon web services or he never create figures out Amazon Prime as a subscription service. You know? So I think it's the same. I think it's the same. I think when you, and, and it, it translates to way more than business. You know, if you tell yourself, I'm not very good at relationships, you're not gonna be very good at relationships.
[00:12:40] Donald Miller: But if you tell yourself, I'm learning to be good at relationships and because I'm willing to learn, I'm going to be great. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I.
[00:12:49] Shelly Rood: It is. Absolutely. Yeah.
[00:12:50] Donald Miller: And so I, I just think resiliency is the number one characteristic. So, you know, um, the most hardcore thing I've ever done, you know, it, it [00:13:00] would be hard to know.
[00:13:00] Donald Miller: 'cause none of them actually feel that weird to me.
[00:13:04] Shelly Rood: I would say your authorship hands down. Okay. Yeah. I mean, without that really persistent,
[00:13:09] Donald Miller: without that, we're not having a conversation. That's true. But think what that takes, it takes the ability to sit down and assume, I. You have something to say?
[00:13:21] Shelly Rood: Yes.
[00:13:21] Shelly Rood: Tell me what it takes to write a book because I am not a published author and like many people, that is absolutely one of my dreams. So tell me what that takes. Two things.
[00:13:28] Donald Miller: Delusional optimism. Uh, you have to be delusional. You have to believe that you are capable of writing something that people would be very, very interested in.
[00:13:42] Donald Miller: Now, that is not delusional optimism. That's just probably the truth about every human being. What's delusional and where it takes delusional optimism is you don't become a good writer. Uh, you, you, I'm sorry, you're not born a good writer. You have to become a good writer. And, [00:14:00] um, if I went back and looked at my early writing and have, uh, it's not very good, you know, it, it isn't very good at all.
[00:14:09] Donald Miller: In fact, it's bad writing. But I was delusional about whether, I mean, I remember sitting down with a professor. My first year in college, she gave me a D minus on a paper, and there was, there were a few lines in the paper that I thought were poetic and I thought I deserved an A. So I went to her, what'd you think?
[00:14:29] Donald Miller: I got some time in her office and I, I sat down and I said, look, people don't write like this. Look, look at this line. And she goes, well Don, that's a good line, but you've missed the whole point of the essay. It's actually a terrible essay. And I go, I know. But nobody write. Like give that a little line that that's a really good little line.
[00:14:43] Donald Miller: And she's looking at me like, are you nuts? Are you absolutely crazy? I was She? Yes I was. Absolutely. I. I was absolutely, uh, thinking that I deserved an A for a couple little poetic lines when I'd missed the whole point of the assignment. [00:15:00] And I think that is, uh, in hindsight, while that might be a very annoying characteristic, uh, to be around, I had it.
[00:15:08] Donald Miller: And it's also the reason I built on that. You know, I built on, Hey, I, you know, who cares if I missed a point? This is a really good line. It's a really good way to phrase this, and I've got something. And she would even say, well, you know, she, by the way, she gave me a B. She said, well, I give you, oh,
[00:15:24] Shelly Rood: look at you negotiating.
[00:15:24] Shelly Rood: Yeah, I can give you a better
[00:15:25] Donald Miller: grade because you're right. That's a good line. However, I'm gonna hold my ground on the fact that you freaking missed this assignment and you better learn to, you know? So I think that takes a little bit of delusional optimism and, and which is the opposite of the voice in your head that's saying, you're no good.
[00:15:41] Donald Miller: You'll never amount to anything. Nobody wants to read this. That will be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Mm. I don't think that you are going to be able to counter that voice very easily because it's a very powerful voice. But what you can do is turn it off. Um, you know, I learned this cold [00:16:00] plunging. I've gotten into cold plunging.
[00:16:01] Donald Miller: Today's like day 300 in a row that I've gotten into sub 50 degree water. And I found early on when I first started doing it that there was nothing I could do to talk myself into it. There's nothing I could do. There's no argument I could make for being that uncomfortable and willingly do. That is
[00:16:20] Shelly Rood: how I felt walking into the gas chamber during basic training.
[00:16:23] Shelly Rood: Oh my
[00:16:24] Donald Miller: gosh, you had to. Yeah.
[00:16:27] Shelly Rood: Mult. Yeah. More than once. Many people only have to go in the guest chamber once, but I definitely have gone in more than once. Well, that's a story because I'm wondering now why
[00:16:33] Donald Miller: you had to go in more than once.
[00:16:35] Shelly Rood: If, well just for training. Okay. So sometimes you're lucky enough to be part of a unit that goes more than,
[00:16:41] Donald Miller: well, congratulations.
[00:16:43] Donald Miller: Um, but you probably, like I did, figured out actually. You just have to do it. You just have to go do it. You have to physically take your body there, and the best way to do it is to not think is just to go blank. Let your mind go [00:17:00] completely blank. Don't think about it and get in that water. And I, I, and that worked and it taught me how also to work out, to, to hit the gym and to, I don't feel like doing this writing assignment.
[00:17:13] Donald Miller: I really feel like sipping coffee and eating biscuits and gravy and looking on eBay for a nice sweater, I don't feel, and you have to just say, stop. Stop it. Just go blank and sit down and do it. And I think that's, that's also what it takes to be a writer. I. Is you, you have to actually have delusional optimism about your ability and then you, it's a writing.
[00:17:35] Donald Miller: What people don't understand is it's a physical. Um, exercise. You're physically typing on a physical computer in a physical place, and writers love to kinda live in their imagination and live in their poetry and get sentimental and talk about their favorite Wes Anderson film. None of that is useful at all, but what, what you need to do is actually sit down and do the work and do it every day and do it without thinking about it.
[00:17:59] Donald Miller: Just get down and [00:18:00] do it. Because look for every book that you hold. You know, every two pages represents a successful two hours of work. Hmm. And so 300 pages is 600 hours of work and extrapolate that over, and that's
[00:18:15] Shelly Rood: the successful hours of work. 600 successful hours
[00:18:18] Donald Miller: work. And by the way, you, you can't write.
[00:18:21] Donald Miller: People will say, well, I wrote all day. I believe you, you wrote garbage all day. You can write for about two, two and a half hours if you are very, very practiced. At writing. Uh, if you are very, very good professionals can get two and a half hours worth of writing done in a day.
The Myth of Typing vs. Writing
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[00:18:37] Donald Miller: Amateurs can go all day long 'cause their, their words are crap.
[00:18:41] Donald Miller: That's, that's not called writing. That's called typing. So, um, congratulations. You typed for 10 hours. Words that nobody will ever read.
[00:18:49] Shelly Rood: Yes. You're poor. That's right. That's
[00:18:50] Donald Miller: right. So, you know, it takes, it takes, it takes delusional optimism and discipline.
Balancing Parenthood and Writing
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[00:18:55] Shelly Rood: And I heard you say in an interview that you should [00:19:00] not try to become a New York Times bestseller when you have young kids. Oh, no. I mean, you're gonna ruin your family because you've got, she's three now, right? Yeah, she's three and a half, and I have a 4-year-old, and I have a one and a half year old, and I have a 15 year, so I'm right there with you knowing about Well, but what you can get is you can find 90 minutes a day, and if you're really, really.
[00:19:22] Donald Miller: I don't wanna use the word discipline 'cause it never feels like discipline to me. It, it always feels like something I want to do. But if you're able to turn off your brain and immediately get into the zone and go for 90 minutes, you can write a really good book. I, I, I think it will take you 18 months rather than 12 months.
[00:19:41] Donald Miller: Um, but you can write, you can write with kids. Uh, what, what you, what kids offer, offer you that's negative is an excuse I. You know, as soon as you say, well, I have kids so I can't write. You're right. You have kids so you can't write. [00:20:00] That's right. And a lot of other people can hear the world, you know? Yeah.
[00:20:04] Shelly Rood: We say that's the because I'm a mom. Excuse. Well, because I'm a mom, you know, I have a friend who's a painter, Rebecca, she's. Of single mom, and she's an extremely successful painter, and she makes it work. She sells her paintings for $30,000 a piece. And, uh, if she can make it work, you can make it work too.
[00:20:22] Donald Miller: You know? And by the way, she has a great relationship with her daughter, you know, so, uh, you know, you can make it work. You just gotta figure out how to make it work. I, you know, Eric Thomas is a friend, the hip hop preacher, and he's very, very controversial because his, his most famous line is, it's your fault.
[00:20:39] Donald Miller: And if you actually will, will own the fact that whatever is happening to you is your fault. Which by the way isn't always true. Sometimes it is somebody else's fault. But if you choose to believe, well it's my fault, then you can change the 60% of it. That actually is your fault. Mm-hmm. And also, people who bully you start leaving you alone [00:21:00] 'cause they can't get to you.
[00:21:01] Donald Miller: Uh, you know, it is a powerful, powerful frame to see the world and say Everything that is negative that is happening to me is my fault. And then you begin to, versus your, okay, well why is it my fault? Well, I choose abusive relationships, right? Yes, they are. That's a hard thing to say out loud, their fault that they're abusing me.
[00:21:21] Donald Miller: But it's my fault that I chose to get in this fricking relationship. It's my fault that I stay in this job that I hate. Right. It, you know, it's my fault that, by the way, I ate a cupcake last night and woke up feeling like I had a hangover. Whose fault is that? That's your fricking fault, not the cupcake.
[00:21:37] Donald Miller: You're getting personal. I choose to blame the cupcake, but honestly it's my fault. You know? So it's just really, really helpful. It's hard. It is tough love, but um, but it's love. It really is love when we have people find to say, Hey, you gotta take care of yourself. One of my favorite cartoons of all times is Calvin and Hobb.
[00:21:56] Shelly Rood: And there's one in one in particular where the little boy is [00:22:00] behind his lemonade stand and he says, I don't understand Hobbes. Nobody's buying what I'm selling, and everybody needs it. And Hobbes says, well, what are you selling? And they show the front of the lemonade stand and it says A swift kick in the butt.
[00:22:15] Donald Miller: That's pretty good. So thinking about your daughter. I have the young kids at the older age as you do as well, and they do take so much time, effort, energy.
Faith, Resilience, and Leadership
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[00:22:27] Shelly Rood: I'm very intrigued in knowing about your personal life. You're in Nashville, did you grow up in Nashville? No, I grew up in Houston, Texas. I was there till I was 21 and then I spent 20 years in Portland, Oregon, the opposite of Houston, Texas.
[00:22:41] Donald Miller: I loved both. And then for the last 10 years, 11 years this November, uh, uh, my wife and I have been in Nashville, Tennessee, which we also love. Uh, is that your forever home? I really believe so, yeah. I believe, I believe this is it for me. [00:23:00] Um, we've, we've just created such a wonderful community here. We built our dream home and, and, and, uh, started our family here.
[00:23:07] Donald Miller: I'm proud of the fact that my daughter will be a Tennessean and she will identify as a Tennessean. You're proud of that. I'm very, a lot of people that wouldn't, I've always said Tennessee is just Texas without the ego. You know, it's, it's just technically with humility. Oh, and by the way, the Texas ego is kind of entertaining.
[00:23:27] Donald Miller: It's really fun to be around those folks. But Tennessee has sort of a gentle humility to it and a non-drama aspect to it. It's a very, very well run state. It's an extremely well led state, uh, and it's a great place to raise a family and start a business. So I think we're here for a long time. We do a lot of work in the mental wellness realm, especially with veterans and military, and I've been taking a look at the landscape of Nashville and it's really rising to the top of the country.
[00:23:56] Shelly Rood: Yes. As a hub for mental wellness, and that's a beautiful thing to see because [00:24:00] somebody has to fill that position. Yeah. Well we have a great healthcare system. You know, a lot of healthcare is run outta Nashville, and then there's also a great mental health. Uh, community here. Onsite workshops is here, HCA is here.
[00:24:13] Donald Miller: So there's a lot of, there are a lot of really great folks in the mental health space here and also, you know, artists are beginning to talk about it and there's a lot of artists championing the mental health cause here in Nashville, Tennessee. And it takes a lot of that openness and transparency, you know, and for you to be as hardcore as you are as such an accomplished and published author.
[00:24:36] Shelly Rood: If you go too far, hardcore in one direction, you're gonna fall off the cliff. But you haven't. You've always kept one foot planted, you know, in your faith and your values and your belief system. And for me, that's. The defining moment of being at ease. And, and I know that you came to your faith understanding at a younger age, you know, you were, uh, doing preaching in college.
[00:24:59] Shelly Rood: Is there [00:25:00] a different time or was that the time in your life where you really felt like you were at ease in your belief system? You know, I think when I was in college, um, and I wrote memoirs that were surrounded with faith, I was trying to figure it out. Uh, I was trying to figure out who God is and how do we interact with them and what does he want from us.
[00:25:21] Donald Miller: And I think as I've gotten older, I figured out that we are probably not gonna be able to answer that question completely, which is where I separate from Evangelicals and for that matter, Jews and a lot of Muslims. Um. They have, they have defined who God is and what God wants from us and who's right and who's wrong.
[00:25:41] Donald Miller: And I, I really say, Hey, they might be right, but I, but I don't know. And by the way, they don't know either. Uh, they're just, they just think they know. Uh, I, I, and so I'm very, very comfortable with God as mystery. They're deliriously optimistic. They're, they're delusively optimistic. [00:26:00] A delusional Yeah.
[00:26:01] Donald Miller: Emphasis on delusion. Uh, but I, so there are pillars. I, I'd love to write a book someday called The Faith I Keep, which is about the faith that I kept and the faith that I discarded and, you know, and the difference between the two. And, and one of the things that I keep is that God is love. And that human beings, all of all human beings are incredibly precious to him.
[00:26:25] Donald Miller: And that when we see human beings as precious, uh, we are, we are, we have God's perspective on the world. And to me, that's, that's the foundation of my faith Now.
[00:26:38] Shelly Rood: I leaned into this understanding that two humans are two spirits, and it's the spirit of God and me and the spirit of God and you that are connecting with each other. I think there's something to that. Yeah. If you really, genuinely believe that God will put you in touch with God's people. They're [00:27:00] amazing.
[00:27:00] Shelly Rood: You know, I, I, I hear people kind of throw that away, but Donald Miller is one of God's people, and there's so many other just unbelievable human beings out there that if you were to be connected with them, you would start to just get a taste of how wide and vast that faith could be. Yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely true.
[00:27:19] Donald Miller: I think it's just so much bigger, you know, when you just study the physical expanse of the cosmos, uh. That what if there's a spiritual reality that is equally as mesmerizing? Right. And I, I think there is, and we are just, we think we understand it, but I don't think we understand it. I don't think we're made to understand it.
[00:27:39] Shelly Rood: No, I don't think, I don't think we're capable. What is it Chesterton said? Uh, you know, if you can get all of God into your head, it's a very small God. It's a very small, yeah. And a man made one of that. I heard you say that resilience was such an incredible value to lean into what is empowering your resilience because you [00:28:00] live a potentially high stress life, but you're not.
[00:28:03] Shelly Rood: Every time I see you, I feel like you're the commanding general that has a wonderful presence that walks in the room. You're very calming. You're very. Authoritative. And I would just love to know how you maintain that sense of command and control, your stress and how you keep command. Well, well, first of all, I, I do feel stress, uh, occasionally my, although my, I, I saw a therapist once who said, I don't, and I need to learn to, but I, uh, but I do think I feel stressed in some ways.
[00:28:31] Donald Miller: I, I think if you calculate the upside of me taking risks and getting things done, are that. You know, thousands of jobs could be created, uh, lives could be bettered. Uh, you know, the upside is very, very high. The downside of me failing is that I might be embarrassed. That is a very small downside. And so when you start realizing you basically don't have anything to lose.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Donald Miller: And you have everything to gain, you start working a lot harder and you start trying a lot harder at different things because so many people can benefit from you fully, uh, actualizing yourself in the world. That, that, but, and if you fail, by the way, people may snicker at you, but what, what, what does the world lose?
[00:29:21] Donald Miller: If somebody laughs at Donald Miller? They lose nothing. I. Like, nothing, nothing. I, I lose something, but who am I? You know? I mean, why, why is it, why do I matter? Uh, I don't matter. You know? It's not like children are gonna go hungry because Don Miller fell on his face. That's not, that's not the, that's not the downside.
[00:29:39] Donald Miller: So for me, it's once you get over yourself a little bit, you realize you're actually not that important. But the work you do and the mission, you may dream up is important. Then you just, yeah. You just get in, go into it. So I heard you say that you can minimize your stress by leaning into your [00:30:00] mission and remembering that that takes precedent over whatever measure of stress you're feeling as an insignificant human being.
[00:30:07] Donald Miller: Yeah, I think it's a, it is. You have to hold two things in your hand at the same time. Your complete and total insignificance and your extreme importance and your total insignificance is that your story really doesn't matter. Your importance is that you can actually help other people live a better story themselves.
[00:30:26] Donald Miller: Mm-hmm. And that my daughter's story depends heavily on whether or not I show up heavily. And that makes me feel important, right? That makes, that gives me a purpose to living. When it's my story, eh, I'm not very motivated, but when I realized how important I am and can be in the stories of my friends, my coworkers, my customers, my family, um.
[00:30:50] Donald Miller: Then you know where it really elevates, where, where, where, you know, where it really elevates Shelly is when you realize how important you are to God [00:31:00] when, when you say, okay, I choose to serve God by honoring the dignity of all humankind and teaching people that everybody is equal in God's eyes and that equality is that they are very important to him.
[00:31:15] Donald Miller: If I can elevate that message, then I become very impor, a very important player in whatever game God is playing. And I think he'll take me off the bench a lot more. And it takes the stress off of you because it's not you. Yeah, it's his. It's his mission. Yeah. He's already got your steps ordered. You're just supposed to march.
[00:31:34] Donald Miller: That's right. Yeah, that's right. We know what he's doing. We know what the game is. Getting the game. And I've heard you compliment your team very, very graciously. And I think that it's wonderful to see a leader who, who can go from sort of this, you know, solopreneur, author, writer, lifestyle into building a team and, and having it be done in a way where they are embodying the values forward.
[00:31:59] Shelly Rood: Can you talk to [00:32:00] me a little bit about what that transition is like going from, you know, really just working for yourself to now you work for the teammates that you created? Yeah, that's actually very, very true. Well, I don't know that it's very gracious. I think I'm just being accurate. Uh, you know, I've hired very, very talented people.
[00:32:16] Donald Miller: Um, they are extremely smart. They do, they have abilities that I don't have. Uh, I'm a very visionary leader. They're, many of them are very detail-oriented people. They can actually, I can draw up the play and they can run the play. And so we have to work together as a team. And I think it was a really, it was a.
[00:32:36] Donald Miller: Uh, uh, uh, you know, a great paradigm shift for me to understand that I'm gonna get a lot more done with other people than I am by myself. And by the way, if you, if you are a solo. Person who, who really needs to micromanage every detail and every aspect of everything. And you can't work with a team. You, you, you don't last very long in our culture, because we work together, you know, we, we dream things up together and we [00:33:00] execute them together.
[00:33:01] Donald Miller: Uh, so I think just realizing, boy, if I want to get done what I wanna get done, we're gonna need a lot of people. And the morale of those people needs to be high. You know, it always, it bothers me when politicians run for president and they run almost against the government. You know, they'll say the government is inefficient, the government is garbage, the government is this.
[00:33:21] Donald Miller: And then they get elected and they take over the government. Well, listen, if I, if I were gonna be CEO of some major multi-billion dollar corporation and I became CEO by crapping all over the employees before I got the job, you're not gonna have much loyalty or MO productivity. So maybe part of the reason the government isn't very product productive is because people keep saying they're very That's right.
[00:33:42] Donald Miller: It's like a mutiny every couple of years. Right. Exactly it. Like why not phrase the military? Why not phrase the Pentagon? Why not phrase the people who work at the DMV and increase their morale? That way you can inject better systems that help them become more productive. And actually [00:34:00] why not praise teachers rather than, you know, hate the union.
[00:34:04] Donald Miller: So, you know, I think, I think, uh, a big part of leadership is making sure. You know, efficiencies are high. Productivity is high. Throughput is high, and morale is high. Morale is high because at the end of the day, the systems and processes are wonderful. They're still people. They're operated by human beings.
[00:34:22] Donald Miller: Mm-hmm. Yeah. They're operated by human beings. Well, I wanna thank you so much for being a human being in my life. Well, thank you and thanks for having a conversation with me.
[00:34:31]
[00:34:33] Shelly: That was Donald Miller. And wow, this idea of "delusional optimism" really got to me. I always thought I was being smart by being realistic. But Donald made me realize something. Maybe I've just been overthinking and calling it wisdom.
[00:34:52] Shelly: This conversation made me think about how I take risks. What if we need a little [00:35:00] more delusion and a lot less analysis?
[00:35:03] Shelly: Here's what I want you to try. Pick that thing you keep putting off. You know the one. Just start it. Turn off your brain like Donald says. Show up and do the work. I'm curious what happens when you stop making excuses.
[00:35:18] Shelly: I've been testing this 2% thing. When I want everything perfect, I ask myself: what's the 2% chance I could figure this out? Honestly, I always want to do things perfectly or not at all. But what if good enough just gets me started? Game changer.
[00:35:51] Shelly: Here's what's sticking with me. Resilience isn't about being tough. It's about moving [00:36:00] past messy attempts fast enough to try again. Maybe the problem isn't that we mess up. Maybe it's that we remember our mistakes better than our wins.
[00:36:14] Shelly: I've been trying cold showers after hearing Donald talk about cold plunging. I'm nowhere near his 300 days, but there's something about doing hard things that makes everything else easier. Same with his 2-hour work limit. I thought it was crazy, but it works. Both are free, which I love.
[00:36:56] Shelly: If this you love this episode, screenshot it and tag me @othersoverself [00:37:00] with #HardcoreAndAtEase. I love seeing what lands with you. And please subscribe - it helps other leaders find these conversations.
[00:37:08] Shelly: Here's your question for this week: If you focused on the 2% chance instead of all the ways things could go wrong, what would you start tomorrow?
[00:37:19] Shelly: I'm Shelly Rood. Stay hardcore, be at ease, and trust the process.
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