Welcome to Theology.

Throwdown.

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters.

Gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

All right, well, welcome to another episode of Theology Throwdown.

This is where, as we said in the intro there, all the podcasters of the Christian podcast community are welcome to join.

Tonight's topic will be the charismatic gifts.

We were hoping for some of those that hold to the continuationist position would come in.

So far I haven't seen anyone, so we may not have all that much disagreement here.

Maybe I'll just have to make the argument for the charismatics gifts continuing and you guys can all disagree with me.

And I wanted to do that.

Yeah, well, yeah, well, either way I'm going to be right.

Right.

So why don't we go around and just so in the audience, you guys can hear the voices of those who are here and know a little bit about their podcast.

Before we get into discussing the topic of the continuation, or lack thereof, of charismatic gifts, we'll start there with Mr.

Spencer, who is first in.

So introduce yourself and your podcast.

Yeah, good evening or morning whenever you guys are watching this, to everyone out there, my name is Spencer Tosi and I co or co host, I suppose, the Religionless Christianity podcast with my wife Nikki, who can't be here tonight because the kids have a roller skate event that they got to get to.

And on our podcast, we kind of just look at what we think is important news of the week or relevantly or relevant news that's recent to the Christian faith, and we try to dissect it from a biblical worldview.

You know, recently we.

We talk a lot about AI.

Me and Andrew were just talking about some AI on here, how that might relate to the church.

We talk about how fascinating it is that the Holy Spirit would choose to use the democratic process to elect God on earth through the Roman Catholic Church.

That's fascinating stuff to talk about and just all sorts of topics.

If it's culturally relevant or spiritually relevant, we try to discuss it.

So that's what we do.

You can find us on really anywhere you listen to podcasts, YouTube, Rumble, Facebook.

We're on there as well.

So happy to be here.

That might be a fun topic.

You know, AI and the church.

That we should do that sometime, like, because I could really see a good discussion of should pastors use AI for sermons and if so, how much.

Just because, you know, we talked a lot about AI being used for translation.

And you're like, yes, I see that being A very beneficial thing.

But also, are we sort of turning in our kind of blessed toil?

Yeah.

You know, we don't want to work hard for the Lord anymore, so let's just let a robot do it for us and then we'll just kind of edit it at the end and call it a day.

I don't know.

Yeah, it depends how you use it.

Right?

Because.

So I, I do.

I do all the sermon prep, write my sermon, and I do use the AI to.

Because my English is not so good.

So I will run it through.

But I also run it through saying keep 90% of the content exactly as is.

So I just want it correcting grammar and things like that.

So it depends how you're going to use it.

That'd be a fun discussion.

Maybe next time.

Yeah.

So we do have the AI version of a.m.

brewster here.

And so.

Or is it the real thing?

We never really know.

You can't know.

You really can't know.

This video could all be a deep fake.

Yeah.

And.

And if it's.

If it's.

If you're showing something that's true about a Democrat president who is, you know, not competent to walk, that's called the cheap fake, you know.

Oh, of course.

So, yeah, Go Aaron, introduce yourself.

Your podcast.

My name is Aaron Brewster and I have the privilege of being one of the Striving for Eternity speakers.

But before that, I started podcasts.

One of them is called the Celebration of God.

No new content is being added to that currently, but it is evergreen and it is all about personal discipleship and worship.

How we can individually and corporately worship God with our Christian holidays as well as our everydays.

And we dive into things like the spec, like specific holidays, but then also how we worship God with our rest, how we worship God at work and at school, and how we worship God with our food.

Lots of big important topics.

Because everything we do is worship.

And that means we need to have a good biblical understanding of how to worship God, which, which with each facets of.

Of our lives, which includes AI.

How do we.

I could do an episode called Worshiping God with AI.

That would be.

That'd be really powerful.

The other podcast I do, which I am.

That's exactly what we'd expect an AI to say, by the way.

Yeah, of course.

The other podcast I do is Truth Love Parents, which is taking God's word and applying it to the family, helping dads and moms worship God better, specifically with their parenting.

And we are in a middle of a series right now called How Your children respond to sin.

And there are lots of different responses that we see in Scripture.

It's not just a, you know, whether they embrace sin and do wrong or they reject it, but it really is all the other types of responses that happen.

For example, one of the responses, the things that people rarely consider, is the fact that every single time we sin, we gain knowledge, we grow in our understanding of certain things.

And if you don't realize that every single time your kids sin, they're growing in their knowledge, then you're going to miss some really great parenting opportunities.

So we're on the series right now, how your kids respond to sin.

Prior to that, though, we've talked about how to parent sorrowing children.

We've talked about parenting your kids to adulthood.

Lots of series, lots of topics, over 500 episodes, close to 600 episodes now to help you parent to God's honor and glory.

All right, Next up is Mr.

Daniel Minick.

Yes, as Andrew said, my name is Daniel Minick.

I am the host of the Truth Espresso podcast and sometimes my wife Chelsea co hosts with me and I'm really hoping that I can arrange a time to have her back on.

It's been a while.

And Truth Espresso covers a variety of topics and I seem to like to do series on Truth Espresso.

The most recent series is going through the Book of Mormon.

And that got started because I had some conversations and ongoing conversations with Mormon missionaries and their local bishop.

And I attend a monthly lecture from the local bishop.

And so, yeah, that spurned my interest in really diving into Mormonism.

And along with that, Truth Espresso covers things like church history, theology proper, and even some episodes on parenting and marriage.

And have also talked about trials of Donald Trump and the election there.

And so I invite you all to check out the Truth Espresso podcast.

Yeah, you had a great series on all the things that the media said, Trump said and what he actually said that was that was good.

I am Andrew Rappaport, the host of Andrew Rappaport's Rap Report, which is a pre recorded weekly show where we do biblical interpretations and applications for the Christian life.

I also host a weekly live Stream Thursday nights, 8:00 Eastern Time called Apologex Live.

You can go to apologexlive.com you can join that and ask any questions that you have.

So let's start with tonight's topic.

Tonight's topic, and I think others might be coming in a little bit later, is the charismatic gift.

So let me briefly give A overview and see where everyone agrees or disagrees with this.

So basically, you have certain gifts of the Holy Spirit that are given, I believe, at salvation.

I believe that when you get saved, Holy Spirit, part of what he does is to give each individual Christian a certain.

A certain amount of differing gifts.

By the way, I believe all the gifts are commanded in Scripture.

So the gift of giving, the gift of teaching, the gift of mercy, exhortation, we're commanded to do all of those.

It's just that some of those gifts will be more natural to us.

But the gifts are given for the purpose of the church.

Now, I think that there's a difference personally between what I would refer to as a talent and a gift, a spiritual gift.

A talent, I would say, is something you're born with.

I was born.

I probably was organizing inside the womb.

I was just born with a desire to organize things.

I've always been that way.

But I was not always having a desire to teach.

That came after salvation.

When I got saved, I started to gravitate toward seeing people learn God's Word better and gravitate toward teaching and doing that well, where I didn't do that well before salvation.

So that would be a distinction I'd make between a talent and a gift.

I don't know how everyone here is going to think about that, but when we speak of the charismatic gifts, this is something that really arose in the late 1800s, early 1900s, with a movement where it is referred to as the charismatic gifts.

From the Greek word charisma, which is used to refer to certain gifts.

There's two different Greek words for gifts.

And so people try to argue is that the charisma, are these more supernatural or miraculous gifts, things like healing, speaking in tongues, knowledge, the gift of knowledge.

The gift of some would say discernment prophecy.

Now I will say, and it'll be interesting, A question I'm going to have for each of you guys to think about is what would be the definitions of these gifts?

Because I have struggled through the years to get a common definition of the the gift of wisdom or knowledge that's used in 1 Corinthians 13.

How the gift of tongues.

We know we would know its languages, but then people say it's angelic languages.

We'll get into that.

But is it a gift of the hearer?

Is it a gift of the speaker?

Who and how does translation work with it?

There's a lot within the the gift of tongues that becomes interesting.

And then you have the gift of prophecy, where again, there seems to Be different definitions.

You have a gift of prophecy.

Some would say that the gift of prophecy we see in the Bible, which would be where a prophet has to be 100% accurate.

Nowadays, they don't have to be.

If they're 85%, that's close enough.

And they'll say that that's still the same gift of prophecy.

Some will say, no, it is a different gift of prophecy for today.

And so I would be what's called a cessationist.

I believe that those gifts ceased.

And I believe.

And this will be something we can get into discussion as well on.

I believe that ceased with the completion of the canon.

When the canon was complete, we no longer needed some miraculous gifts to point to the writing of Scripture, which is how I see it throughout the.

In the Bible is these miraculous gifts were always in.

In three time periods, and it always was followed by the writing of Scripture.

So some people will take the passage in First Corinthians 13 to refer to either end times or the.

The second coming.

And so people will say that these gifts have continued.

So there are people sometimes referred to as charismatics or Pentecostals that would hold to a view that these gifts continue.

You then have cessationists, which is what I would be saying.

These gifts stopped, you know, shortly after the.

The, you know, basically when the canon started being written, sometime during the process.

And then you have those who.

People would say, well, I am open but cautious.

Open but cautious says, well, I believe that God could continue with these gifts, but I'm cautious about it.

I don't practice it.

I don't encourage it.

I would argue that if you're open but cautious, I'm going to say you're believing that they continue.

So I think.

I really think they either continue or they don't.

So let's.

Let me.

So that was my overview.

I'm gonna let.

I'll let Daniel start next with providing what.

What he thinks is an overview, what he thinks the areas of discussion will be.

And then we'll.

Then I'll have Aaron and Spencer.

I think the.

The topic has to do with miraculous gifts.

When we talk about charismatic gifts, we're talking about things that cannot be produced merely naturally.

And so then that brings up some interesting questions about testing the claims of things like tongues and healings and stuff like that.

Are some of these things fake as they're presented, especially heavenly tongues or healings in various staged crusades stuff?

But the topic of the charismatic gifts, yeah, as a question of does when the Holy Spirit was Poured out.

Especially in Acts chapter two, we know that's the start of early, officially the start of fulfilling the prophecy of Joel.

Chapter two, when the gifts, when the Holy Spirit is poured out, therefore, you know, your sons adore sons prophesy and.

Exactly.

However the, the phrase is there prophesying and dreaming dreams.

And so the miracles were there for a purpose and they started.

And so these charismatic gifts, these miraculous sign gifts, were something that were undeniably from God and not produced through natural efforts.

And so, yeah, the question being, do these things continue?

Would also be how can we detect if, if these things are really happening?

Can we even know for certain that this is a miracle of God?

Or especially as things are claimed from the continuationist side, can these things easily be faked by the natural man or by the devil?

Or are they actual, undeniable, verifiable miracles?

Okay, so Aaron would be your overview.

All right.

Maybe.

Maybe I'll be the fun guy tonight.

I don't know.

Yes, that was a mushroom joke.

Anyway, so I consider myself a sensationist.

I believe that the, the gifts have ceased and should not be expected to.

To be part of the maturing growth of a Christian or something that we can expect in any way, shape or form is going to happen.

With that said, that category, Andrew, that other category that you mentioned, that third category, how do you, how do you phrase that?

Open but cautious.

And I think that was popularized by John Piper.

I would not put myself into that category either.

I would not say I'm open but cautious.

However, I, I have two big questions.

Well, a thought and a question.

The thought is this God, God repeatedly with his people.

We, we didn't, we didn't quite get things right all of the time.

And as we interpret His Word and then he comes and he does something and we, we crucify his, the Messiah, or we, we quit all of our jobs and go wait up on a hill because we're certain that the Lord's coming back to cling, you know, so we, we are certain of many things and we're called to be certain.

We are called to be confident in what we believe and to interpret the scriptures and understand and strive for that.

So being dogmatic, it's not bad.

But I recognize my own frailty and I do recognize the fact that God is all powerful and can.

And that we do know from prophecy that there will come a time when he is going to.

Tongues and prophecies are going to come back.

Okay, that's, that's the thing that's going to happen.

And I don't know when that's going to be.

And also the kind of stuff.

So I also recognize the fact that could God choose to do that and actually be 100 completely consistent with the cessationist viewpoint and still do what he's doing for his purpose?

That I don't understand.

Yes.

And because of that may sound like open and cautious.

Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, I don't know.

But then the second thing I would bring up is this.

And we have to be careful with experience, experiential stuff.

Okay.

We really do.

People can claim all sorts of stuff.

We need to go back to the scriptures.

What do the scriptures say?

However, there are certain experiential things that were they to happen, were I to be Sheffy.

Okay, that, that, that, that circuit riding preacher from the day who when confronted with a man who has making moonshine and a backyard still prayed that God would strike his still down with a bolt of lightning.

And then that actually happened.

Okay, later, Right.

I have to look at that and I have to include that in part of the formula for my, the hermeneutic as I go to scripture.

So there are certain things that have happened.

I can bring them up later in the show, you know, when the time comes.

But there have been certain things that have happened that I've had to stop and say, okay, if that really is true, if that were true that that happened, then that's going to have an impact on my sensationist position.

It either is going to completely unravel it or it's going to modify it to a certain degree.

Now being able to substantiate whether or not that thing actually happened is very important.

I have to be careful that I don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I have to be careful that I don't allow my understanding of facts to be colored by my interpretation of the scripture.

As a cessationist, I absolutely refuse to believe anything that anybody says that sounds even remotely supernatural.

I think that would be a foolish thing to say.

If something is verifiably supernatural and miraculous happened, I would be a fool just to say, oh, that didn't happen because I happen to believe in cessationism.

And the last thing I'll say about that will be this one interesting example.

And we actually talked about this, I think on an apologetics live recently when we had one of the ghost hunters on is that some interesting things have happened in my family and have happened in my own personal life.

Things that are unexplainable from a natural perspective.

And so when I look at that as a Christian and I say, okay, this thing happened, what does that actually mean?

That forces me to go back to the scriptures and to understand it as best as I can, to the glory of God.

So that's kind of where I sit.

I don't know if that calls, if that fits into that Piper category or not.

What do you think, Andrew?

No, I think it doesn't.

Because you're saying that you don't expect these things to happen.

You're even.

And I'll, we'll get there later, I'm sure.

But I would agree that the issue is are these normative?

No.

A sensationist would say no.

Could God do these things?

You're saying, hey, well, like if there's God could do this, like I, I could, I would argue God has done this in multiple times and they're all tied to the writing of scripture when the Word himself is there ruling.

Okay, my position, right.

I'm pre millennial.

I know you are, Aaron.

But you know, when Christ comes and rules, will he write more scripture or will it just be he speaks?

You know, will he be doing miracles?

Will others do miracles to vindicate their, their, you know, like, I don't know, it could be, but I don't think, you know, so I, I, I think if God does bring miraculous gifts back, it's going to be for the same purpose he used it the other three times in history would be my argument.

So Spencer, your, your views.

Yeah, I like what everyone here has said so far is, you know, in the case of defending or making their stand for cessationism, I think it was covered.

Well, I too, I guess would fall into that cessationist camp.

Although I think Aaron sort of touched on it a little bit.

I think it would be cessationist with the understanding that not necessarily that the gifts have ceased in a sense, but like what you said, Andrew, they're not normative and they're not active.

Now again, you know, we do see like Aaron mentioned that prophecy and this stuff will come back.

So, you know, that happens to be in our lifetime.

Then, you know, you don't want to be.

You know, because we kind of talk about people's experiences with the charismatic gifts and you know, they trust more in their experiences than, you know, what the scriptures might tell them.

But at the same time you don't want to become, you know, this is almost like the kind of high Calvinist, the frozen chosen type position where, you know, we're all elected So I don't have to do anything.

You know, in your faith is almost like it's too rigid, it's too dead.

Almost kind of a view where I would say maybe the same thing is kind of what Aaron's talking about.

If you see something, a miracle, you know, at the same time, you can't just go, well, that's not real.

I didn't see it, or it didn't happen to me.

Or, you know, the two witnesses come back in your lifetime and they're prophesying and you're like, well, that's not what that is.

Well, yeah, it is.

It is what it is.

Right.

So I would say cessationist, yes, but more the idea, not that they've necessarily ceased, that they, you know, in the idea that they can't come back or they won't come back, but just that they're not active anymore.

But then, you know, not open and cautious, but understanding that.

Because that's often what gets thrown at cessationists.

Right.

You don't believe in miracles.

You don't believe that God can still do things.

And I don't know a single cessationist that says, yes, I don't believe in miracles.

Right.

We all still believe that people are healed by God and these sorts of things and bolts of lightning strike down bootleggers and all of that stuff, but not normative, not active.

And largely what we see today, that is, we're told our continuation of these gifts are just simply unbiblical manifestations of whatever they think the gifts are or were, you know, as the Bible describes them.

So, yeah, and I had hoped I.

That either Adam Parker from Bold Apologia or Matt Slick from Matt Slick Live would be here, being that they would be continuationists.

But as I was joking with Daniel, I've debated Matt Slick enough times so that I, I know his position well.

So let me, let me speak for Matt Slick.

That's a scary thing to do.

I'll send it to him.

I'll send him the, the file and see whether he thinks I, I represented him well.

But we, Because Matt and I have actually, yeah, I'll be the.

I'll be the Matt Slick, AI.

But Matt.

Matt and I have debated this enough that I actually do know his argument pretty well.

He would, he would say that gifts continue.

He, he has, you know, he's debated this quite a bit.

And the argument he's going to make for the continuation of gifts is he's going to get out of First Corinthians, chapter one.

Verse seven.

And it, it says so that you are not lacking any gift, and that is the word charisma.

So you're not lacking any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So he would say that that verse says that the gifts must continue until Christ's return because otherwise the church would be lacking the gift.

And so his argument would end up being that the, the gifts would, would be in place.

Now, having said that, I also know Matt would disagree with them being normative.

He would.

He, Matt personally believes that he has given a prophecy on two occasions.

He does not see that as normal.

He doesn't, he doesn't believe he's ever spoken tongues, but he, he thinks he has given a prophecy.

And so, and the challenge becomes, and the challenge he'll often make is, well, what do you do with that?

He is a believer in Christ.

He's a faithful brother, and he'll challenge people and say, well, what do you do with that?

To which I always answer, nothing, because I can't exegete your experience.

The issue being is his faithfulness or him being a believer is not what's in question.

It's, it's really, it comes down to what scripture says.

So let's look at some scripture.

This is Corinthians 1 Corinthians chapter 12.

If you are listening or watching, I would encourage you to open your copy of God's Word and read along with me as I read 1st Corinthians 12, 14, verse 4.

So chapter 12, verse 4, all the way down to verse 10.

This is the area that has the gifts that are referred to.

This is the, where we get the idea of the charisma gifts, the charismatic gifts.

It says here.

Now these are the variety of gifts and the word gift.

There is charisma charismatic.

Okay, so.

And it's going to provide a list of those gifts.

So first Corinthians 12, 4.

Now, there are a variety of gifts, but the same Spirit, and there's a variety of ministries, and the same Lord, and there are a variety of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons, but each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

And now here's going to give, at verse eight, we're going to see a list of nine gifts.

And so what I'm going to do is interject the numbering so that if you're taking notes, you can have them or underline them in your scriptures and put a little number there.

But for there is this verse eight.

Now for to one is Given the first, the word of wisdom.

So that's one through the spirit, to another number two, the word of knowledge according to the same spirit, three, to another faith by the same spirit, number four.

And to another gifts of healing by the same spirit.

And to another number five, affecting of miracles.

And to a number into another number six, prophecy.

And to another number seven, the distinguishing of spirits.

And to another number eight, various kinds of tongues.

And to another number nine, the interpretation of tongues.

So those are the nine different charismatic gifts that are referred to.

So you have the, you have the word of wisdom.

And if you see the pattern here, it's to one is given this gift of the same spirit, to this one given this gift to the same spirit.

The emphasis is the same spirit is giving all these gifts.

But these nine gifts are what are referred to as either the miraculous gifts, the sign gifts.

Some, you know, talk about them as, as the charismatic gifts.

The I've heard them referred to as the speaking gifts.

I refer to some of these as I, I tend to use the term revelatory gifts, which kind of gives you my position there to vindicate revelation.

But whatever word choice you, you choose, these are the nine gifts we we're speaking of.

Now we have another list of gifts in Romans chapter 12 that nobody debates over.

And so, and it's easy to look, you know, you have First Corinthians 12, Romans 12, easy way to remember, starting in verse six, it says, so we have gifts with.

And here we, we are, we have the word gift here, okay?

And just so that we recognize this also is the word charisma, okay?

And so for people that try to make the distinction, this is why I don't like the term charismatic gifts, because these gifts that nobody disputes are also called charisma.

But since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us to exercise them accordingly.

And so we'll have seven gifts here.

And I'm going to number them again.

If number one, prophecy according to the proportion of his faith, number two, if service in serving, or if he who number three teaches in his teaching, or he who number four exhorts in his exhortation, he who number five gives with liberality, he who number six leads with diligence, he who number seven shows mercy with cheerfulness.

So you have seven different gifts there that are listed, and we're not debating those, okay?

Everybody, I believe within Christian believes those gifts have continued.

So we're talking about the ones mentioned in First Corinthians 12.

So with that, I'm Going to open it up.

I guess I'll start this time with Aaron and then Spencer and Daniel to say with these gifts we have mentioned in First Corinthians, chapter 12, just whichever ones you guys want to take a stab at defining, you know, what do you.

What is your understanding of these different.

These nine different gifts?

Wow.

What liberty we have in this discussion to define these things as we will so.

So great.

By the way, as.

As this has been going along, I've been having an interesting conversation.

We've been talking about AI and theology.

Tonight I just had interesting conversation with.

Gro about are you getting your answers from Grok?

No, no, no, no, no.

But I have a conversation with Grok about which.

Which continuism or cessationism is the more accurate answer.

And I actually kind of, kind of like its response.

But anyway, we'll save that.

Let me just land on the one that I think is probably easiest for me to understand from 1 Corinthians 12, this idea of prophecies.

Okay, so another working of miracles.

This is in verse 10.

And to another prophecy and to another distinguishing of spirits to someone else, various kinds of tongues and to another translation of tongues.

For me, prophecy, I think, and this is true of a lot of biblical terms.

We have to be very careful that, yes, the Bible says what it means, it means what it says, but the Bible also uses human language, and human language has unfortunately, variety in the ways that it's used.

So for example, the word used in John 3:16 about God so loving the world, that same word world, is used in other passages of Scripture to refer to something very different than how we're supposed to understand it in John 3:16.

So, so with that said, when we see the word prophecy here, if we foolishly just assume that it's one thing or another, we're going to get into trouble.

Because prophecy, the idea of prophecy in Scripture is used in a couple different ways.

One way is the idea of basically seeing into the future and saying this is going to happen at a future date.

People have some kind sometimes refer to that as for foretelling.

Whereas the other use in Scripture is a person who is speaking the prophetic utterances of God.

The person is.

Is preaching the truth of God.

It's not.

They're not making a prediction about a future time.

They're saying this is God's truth.

And other people have referred to that as forth telling.

So we have foretelling and we have forth telling.

So therefore I, Aaron Brewster, can say, no, prophecy does not happen to day.

And yes, prophecy happens today because biblically speaking, I do not believe that anybody is making a prediction about a future event when the Lord's going to return, things like that.

I, I do not believe that that's something that God has given to us to do, but I do believe that he has commanded us to forth tell, to prophesy as we are speaking the truths of God's word.

So that's that particular one.

I think, I think we can say from the verses around it, from the context that this prophecy is likely referring to the foretelling the more the miraculous prophesying.

But one could also argue from the, the qualifications of a pastor who needs to be apt to teach that this could also be a gift of forthtelling, a gift of being able to understand elucidate scriptures in a Christ honoring way.

I don't think that that's what this particular word in this particular verse is referring to, but I'll just leave that door cracked open for that possibility.

Spencer, any of, any of these that you want to take a shot defining?

Well, I mean, I think the easiest one for me just based on, you know, I was raised in charismatic churches my whole life and you know, tongues is.

You're inundated with the gift of tongues.

You know, that's the sign that you've been essentially saved, is you receive the Spirit and you speak in tongues.

And you know, growing up in a charismatic church and never speaking in tongues is an uncomfortable place to be.

You know, when you're told that if you are saved, the Spirit comes in you, you will speak in tongues.

And you know, you kind of have to wrestle with that eventually, that I'm either not saved or this gift isn't what they tell me it is.

I obviously have landed on the ladder there and I don't believe the gift is what they tell me it is.

And you know, because what you hear usually from my experience when you discuss the charismatic gifts with those who are continuationists, is that they'll acknowledge for the most part that the gift of tongues is not real languages anymore.

It's often prayer languages or it's, you know, the Spirit, you know, sort of rumbling or whatever in you, you know, the Spirit's utterances from within you, coming out prayer languages and that sort of stuff.

But I just, that's not what you see in Scripture.

You know, when tongues are used, there are real languages that people can translate into their own real languages.

There's no evidence in the Bible of a prayer language, some angelic language, when the angels Speak to us.

They speak in languages we understand.

They speak in our languages.

They don't use an angelic language and then have an interpreter there to translate it for us.

They speak as we understand it.

So to me, that's the easiest one, and maybe just because it's the most evident, I did, you know, grow up with gifts of prophecy and those sorts of things that, you know, I would certainly side with Aaron on that.

As far as forth telling being the gift, you know, what is the.

The great.

The art of prophesying.

I can't think of who wrote that right now.

The Puritan, you know, obviously not telling you.

The art of foretelling.

You know, it's the art of forth telling or preaching God's word, if you will.

So that's, I think, the better understanding of that prophesying.

But tongues, to me, is the one that stands out as just being sort of clearly misunderstood and misapplied from what the Bible intends it to be.

Daniel, you're up next.

Yeah.

So I know you presented two lists, and I think there.

There's probably a point to be made that there are notable differences between these two lists.

But I want to analyze First Corinthians 12, the list there.

And I know some people could make an argument that some of these gifts, starting with healing, like the healing on down, could be miraculous gifts, so to speak, supernatural gifts, gifts.

And then the ones before that, word of wisdom, word of knowledge and faith, are all things that are not supernatural, like, per se, but are, you know, things that continue.

Like, I'm open to understanding that the entire list could be supernatural in a way.

Like, the word of wisdom could mean, like some, you know, supernatural wisdom to discern things that someone would not have any way of discerning other.

Like it's.

It's a word given to that person to grant them wisdom.

The same with the word of knowledge.

Like, this is knowledge that someone could not have obtained by reading, but it's knowledge that the spirit gave someone, and then the same with the faith.

Like, that could be supernatural faith, such as the apostle Paul, which, when he was facing shipwreck in Acts chapter 27, saying, There shall be no loss of life on the ship.

Now, you could say that's prophesying, but I think that could be this gift of faith to be confident that God will preserve all the life on that ship.

So if that's the case, then every one of these could be supernatural gifts that we could then compare with the other list, I would think, you know, to address prophecy.

Yeah.

To Boil it down.

Prophecy is proclaiming the word of God.

So then we can split that to, well, when you know, how did this person get the word of God?

Like you see in the Old Testament, the word of the Lord came unto Jeremiah saying, so he proclaimed the word of God.

That started by God supernaturally revealing it to him first, then he proclaimed it.

Or we today, we have the words of God in Scripture, and then when we proclaim that, we're practicing modern prophecy.

And I think another thing to note is how we have tongues and interpretation of tongues separated out as separate gifts.

And I know when we probably get into talking about what are tongues, that would probably raise the question about what is the interpretation of tongues.

And do those who, those who are, who could call themselves continuationists because they believe that there's such a thing as tongues today, do they believe there's a continuation of the gift of the interpretation of tongues?

And I'd like to see that happen as much as these tongues.

And.

Yeah, so that's what I have to say about that.

Yeah.

Well, thanks.

And I think you're right.

The, the tongues, several of these are quite confusing for me.

I don't know.

I've seen a lot of different definitions on what is the word of wisdom and the word of knowledge.

I've yet to see a really clear consensus on that because this is the only place I know of where they're mentioned.

Now, some of your Bibles might have a footnote for each of those that tie back to where the word wisdom or knowledge are used somewhere else in the Scripture.

But word of wisdom, word of knowledge doesn't show up very often.

At least I don't think I'll do a search while one of you guys are talking to see if it appears anywhere outside of First Corinthians.

But the tongues is an interesting one because I think that what we think of as tongues could easily be faked.

And now people are going to go, no, it can't.

It's of the Holy Spirit.

I did it, you know, when I was in the charismatic movement, it was faked.

It was a mixture of different sounds that I knew from Hebrew or Spanish or, you know, different languages, but they weren't words.

It was just a gibberish.

And so how do you know it's from the Holy Spirit?

Now, it is interesting, as Daniel, you mentioned there about the, the gift of tongues and then the interpretation of tongues, because if we see it how they were practiced in Acts chapter two, it seems like it is a gift of the speaker and the people There heard in their own language.

That's what surprised them.

They knew the language, and these people suddenly started speaking to them in a language they understood.

That was the surprise of it.

So does it need some special gift of interpretation?

And I want to throw my hermeneutical hat on and answer this.

Just a challenge.

And I want to see what you guys think about this.

Is Paul here giving us instruction of how to use these spiritual gifts, or is he correcting something with the church in Corinth?

And the list of gifts here is not as important because that's the minor thing.

In other words, are we focusing on the wrong thing?

Are we focusing on the minor rather than majoring?

We're majoring on the minor rather than.

And end up minoring on the major.

Well, I would argue.

I'll give my position.

The book of First Corinthians, every chapter.

And yes, Paul did not write in chapters.

I get that.

But every chapter, Paul is addressing some other problem that the Corinthians had here.

As I read through this to you, I think it seems pretty clear he's trying to say, yes, there's differing gifts, all these different gifts, but there's one Spirit, the same spirit, the same Lord, the same God, right?

Then he lists the gifts and he's saying, through the Spirit, according to the same spirit, by the same spirit, by the one Spirit.

It just the repetition makes me think that Paul's not trying to give instruction on gifts, but more so on some abuse that's going on using the gifts.

That is showing a lack of love.

And therefore I could.

If that's the case, is he actually saying there's a gift of interpretation of tongues, or is he just accepting that this is what they say they have the gift of?

I think the same thing actually happens a couple chapters later when referring to baptism.

In 1 Corinthians 15, in verse 39, sorry, 29, we come to that verse.

He's saying, otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

If the dead are not raised at all, why then.

Sorry, yeah, he was talking about.

I apologize.

I misspoke earlier when I said that he was talking about baptism.

He's talking about the resurrection from the dead.

And then he comes up this idea of being baptized for the dead.

Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead?

If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for.

For them?

This is the only place in scripture where it's referenced.

And a lot of people, you know, have gotten kind of stuck in a rabbit hole about that.

I mean, what is this baptism?

Are we supposed to be getting baptized for the dead?

And this.

And there are a lot of Catholic practices that kind of grow out of this, a similar idea of doing something for the dead.

But I think this is just a rhetorical device here.

He's pointing out our ridiculous hypocritical thinking.

There are people at the Church of Corinth who are arguing against the resurrection, and yet they were likely participating in this practice of being baptized for the dead.

And Paul, who we know used sarcasm in his communication, who we know use lots of different rhetorical devices, are saying just.

I think they're pointing out the, the ridiculousness of it.

Listen, you people are making an argument for that.

There's no resurrection.

Resurrection.

So that means that your own practice of getting baptized for the dead is foolish.

And the people he was writing to would have understood that's what he was communicating.

But then we get stuck on this one little idea and don't understand it within the context of what it was writing.

And I would, I would say that what you just pointed out is very likely the case.

It's not that he's saying, yes, an interpretation of tongues is an actual spiritual gift, but there are probably people who did believe that.

And he's, he's trying to make a different point than that point about listing out all the spiritual gifts.

And I'm sure Daniel's going to be familiar with this.

But you brought up the baptism for the dead.

One reference.

But really, the Mormons, the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, have really expanded that one thing into a whole doctrine, and that is partially what they do within their temple.

They get baptized because in their argument, they believe you have to be baptized to be saved.

They think what Paul was telling them to do is instructing them to go and be baptized in the name of other people who have already died.

And so they've built a whole structure that's a major part of their belief system is about baptism for the dead.

Based on one verse that.

Yes, I agree.

He was probably being sarcastic.

So, Daniel, I mean, I'll open it to you with what I had.

I had said any, any of views.

Thoughts that you have.

Is this a question about the interpretation of tongues or was the original.

Well, the, the.

The view of.

Is there.

Is this specifically speaking to training us on the use of these gifts?

Or did.

Do you think that Paul had a greater purpose here?

Yeah, I definitely think Paul had a greater purpose because we'll see passages in First Corinthians that clearly talk about what the ministry is all about.

And then, of course, First Corinthians, chapter four, Paul talks about, you know, the purpose of the gifts, as far as, you know, edification.

And it's not that the gifts are necessary, like these particular gifts are necessary of themselves, themselves for edification.

But if they are to be used, they have to be used for edification, such as First Corinthians 14:5, where he says, I would that you all spake with tongues, but rather that you prophesy for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.

And so the important, important thing is, is someone getting something they can understand?

And if they can't understand and all they have is vain and emotional babbling, they're not edified.

So the purpose of tongues, such as someone would have the gift at this time in the church of Corinth, it's not to put on a display or to elevate the person exercising this gift, but.

But it's basically Paul saying, if you don't have anything to say to edify someone else, then don't even bother saying it.

You know, if you're going to speak in tongues, if you have a good reason to, then you need someone with the gift of interpreting tongues so that he can interpret it, so someone can hear it and understand it.

And so if someone has to speak in tongues and then someone has to interpret it, then we can kind of logically deduce, even now, like, it's better that people who all speak the same language can just prophesy to the hearers and edify them.

Men.

Sir, Anything that you want to add to that?

Any thoughts?

No, I mean, I think what you said, I mean, I would agree with, as far as, you know, Paul addressing the gifts wasn't probably the point.

There was a bigger point that he was trying to address, and the gifts were just a way of addressing that.

Because all throughout Scripture, when we see gifts and miracles present, it's never for the purpose of the miracle.

It's always to point you to something greater.

You know, it's not that the Red Sea parted.

So that's amazing, and let's all part the sea.

It's that, you know, God is in control and he's powerful, rule over the nations, and he's sovereign and He's Jesus.

His miracles are not to just do miracles.

It's to point to the idea that he is the Messiah.

He is.

He's come, the kingdom is here.

I mean, all these sorts of things.

So it would not.

To me, it wouldn't make sense that the gifts were the point, that that would be what Paul is arguing and really making a central focus.

Like you said, the spirit, Unity in the spirit, unity in the church, unity in the body is a big deal.

And, you know, if they're abusing those, then it would make more sense that the point would be to just use the gifts as a way to get to his larger issue, which is the unity, the oneness of the Spirit and that sort of thing.

And I think that just makes better sense biblically.

Yeah.

So as we, as we look at these things, and I really wish, you know, I'll just offer up a prayer for Adam Parker from Bold Apologia.

He can't be here because his father is in the hospital with the flu.

So just folks, if you could be praying for he and his father, but it would have been good to have him on, see his.

His views as someone who is holding a little bit stronger to the continuationist position than.

Than a mat slick.

It would have been really good to interact and engage with him on it.

But I think that overall my view is Paul is criticizing the Corinthians for abuses that were occurring with spiritual gifts and the idea of tongues.

We could look historically, something a little bit closer to our historical time.

Late 1800s was John Forum for him was, you know, believed.

Oh, he's got, you know, the idea of speaking in tongues.

And he think.

He basically comes to the conclusion in his mind that this is, you know, biblical, biblical position.

And so he ends up teaching his disciples, his disciples go forward.

There was one Agnes Osman, who, you know, and this becomes the good example.

She believes that she is.

Got the gift of speaking Chinese and writing in Chinese.

And she ends up.

I don't.

I don't remember if she.

I think she went to China, but I don't remember how long she was there.

But we, we actually have her handwritten Chinese.

Justin Peters from one of our other podcasts, the Didache podcast, has that handwriting.

And he sent it to my bride, who.

Well, she grew up reading and speaking Chinese.

That is her first language.

When she speaks English, she's speaking in tongues.

She's speaking in languages.

And actually I like to translate the word tongues when I read it as languages because it clarifies.

It's one of the things.

One of my favorite Bible translations is the Holman Christian Standard Bible, and they translated the word tongues as languages.

And it so clarified the issue that charismatics refused to get that translation.

Because they said it taught against their position.

And all they did was change the word tongues to languages, because that is what it was referring to.

But that aside, Justin sent.

Sent me the.

You know, the.

The writing supposedly of Chinese.

And he.

We.

We did a video call because he wanted to see my.

My bride's face when she interpreted it for him or told him what.

What it said.

So he sends it to me and asks her to, you know, tell him what this is in Chinese.

And she just turns to him and says, justin, that's not Chinese.

That's chicken scratch.

To which she ended up writing to him, this is not Chinese in Chinese.

And you could clearly see the difference between the two.

And I say that to say what I think happened historically with Agnes Osmond was she believed she had a gift of speaking in Chinese.

She goes to China, can't speak Chinese, can't get along with anyone, comes back, and instead of saying, I was wrong, she says, I was speaking an angelic language, and that's what I have.

And I was.

You know, it's just that this is angelic, and so it's not a human language.

And that gets us into the whole discussion about tongues being.

Whether they're human language or not.

I believe that they were always a human language.

The only reference to angelic language, again, as Aaron said, Paul using sarcasm is 1 Corinthians 13:1, where he ends up saying there, if I speak to you in the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I've become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

The issue, the emphasis is on the love, not the.

The angelic language.

I think he's using sarcasm saying, if I have.

If I could speak the language of.

Of men, even of angels, I think.

He'S doing not even sarcasm, maybe even just hyper.

Hyperbole.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

And the reason I believe that is because I read the very next verse.

So keeping with that, if.

If this is teaching that there's an angelic language, then verse two says, if I have the gift of prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge, and even if I have all faith as to remove mountains but do not have love, I'm nothing.

If you knew all knowledge, had all knowledge, knew all mysteries, we would call you God.

Right?

He's clearly not teaching that they could have that kind of knowledge.

Right?

So I think it's a hyperbole that he's using here, a little bit of sarcasm.

Hyperbole.

So that's the only reference to angelic language.

So I Think.

I think we really get into a difficulty with what is the gift that people call tongues today.

And I don't know that it's as clear as it was in the first century, but I do think it could be faked.

I think we know historically, as you know, as I gave with as Agnes Osman, it can be faked and people could be wrong and then cover up for it by saying, well, I think that happened in the Corinthians too.

And I think they're struggling with a spiritual pride of I got a gift better than you.

And that's why in chapter 12 of First Corinthians, he's saying, we're one body, many gifts, you know, many members.

And the focus is not on mine is better than yours, but that we're all needed in the body.

I think that's his emphasis.

Let me bring Keith Helsley in.

He is, he's one of our podcasters.

Came a bit late.

So let me ask Keith if you could do two things.

One, just briefly introduce yourself so people hear your voice and then talk, you know, mention what your podcast is so people can know where to find that.

And then give for us your understanding of your.

Your position of the charismatic gifts, whether you believe they continue or they don't, or you're not sure and.

And what you may.

What your position would be on that.

Yeah, this is Keith Elsley.

I guess he can hear me.

Okay.

Yes, we can.

Yeah.

With the Quest for Truth podcast, our flagship podcast.

We call it Life Truth Network there on our website, but deal with my co host, Nathan Caldwell.

We just talk about the truth, about reality and what's true in the Bible and in the world around us.

Haven't done it in a few weeks.

Been on a little bit of a hiatus, but ready to get back in the swing of it when it comes to spiritual gifts.

I.

I don't know.

I could.

I could go either way.

It seems like a few weeks back there was somebody on the.

The Christian Podcast Committee had a whole episode where a bunch of continuationists were talking about, you know, why they're right.

That would be.

That would be Adam Parker, who unfortunately couldn't be here from Bold Apologia.

I was a little surprised it was on the community, but it was actually very well done and I actually got a lot out of that to understand their position and I can see their point to some degree, but I just can't get on board.

I would follow the cessationist camp.

I am on board with the fact that the guy can do whatever he wants.

And the Holy Spirit can move however he wants.

And I think even people who are cessationists will still say they believe.

And healing, I wouldn't call it faith healing in the manner of, you know, what people refer to faith healing.

But we are.

I mean, I pray every, Every week, every day.

There's people in our church, in our community who have some serious health needs, and they often are healed through prayer and, and through the working of the physical systems that God put in place with the human body and with doctors and so forth.

And that's.

This is such a miracle of life that God does that.

I don't see how.

I don't know.

I.

I suppose if God wanted people to heal, he would give them that.

But I think something that people was.

Who get wrong with the continuation is whenever it's talking about, you know, healing somebody or speaking in tongues, I think people want to do it so bad that they get it wrong.

And it's easy just to wag your tongue and babble.

It's like you're not speaking any tongue.

When I was a young Christian, when it came to this topic, I asked God, can you give me the gift of interpretation?

And so far, either I don't have the gift, or Noah's been.

Been speaking tongues correctly because I can't understand any of them.

Yeah, it is something where you can.

Even if you do not know a language, there are ways to identify that it.

That it is a language.

Language has certain things.

It has a grammar.

Right.

And I've been around.

I mean, I've been around the world a little bit.

I was in the military and.

And I've been to Japan.

And you can tell they're speaking a language, and you can tell from their rhythms and the cadence this Japanese.

And you got people in your unit who are Spanish.

I didn't at the time understand Spanish, but you can understand the difference between Spanish and Italian from the guys talking Italian.

You can, you know, tell those differences sometimes even between different flavors of Spanish or Mexican to Puerto Rican to Panamanian to actual Spain.

There's nuances there, but you can tell they're speaking words to string sentences together.

And there was, I think it was somebody on the Christian podcast, it might have been Melba Toast was playing somebody speaking in tongues.

And it was just.

It sounded very dramatic, but it doesn't sound like a language.

And that's exactly.

And that's the point that I was bringing up.

Most of the time, people that say they have that gift.

It's usually something that they say they do in private prayer language, or it's never verified.

Now, there's some who say it is, but if you listen to the fellows over there at Remnant Radio, they.

They believe that gifts continue.

And what you end up seeing is, you know, they.

They debate and just, you know, try to figure.

They're not quite sure.

Is it a gift of the hearer?

Is it a gift of the speaker?

Is it just something, you know, they say?

You know, one guy said he thinks he was speaking English, but someone heard him in Portuguese, you know, so.

So where's the gift?

Right.

Not sure.

And I should note there for Keith.

You know, one last note and I'll be quiet for you.

That's right.

These are, you know, charismatic.

It means gift.

And these are gifts.

You can't learn how to speak in tongues.

You can't learn how to be a healer.

You can't learn these, you know, things.

They're gifts.

And if you have that gift, it's because the Holy Spirit gave it to you, and therefore, hey, that's a gift.

If, if the Holy Spirit didn't give me the gift, then it's not a gift for me to have.

And it's.

There's no way I can learn how to do that because it's not a talent, it's not a skill, it's not an ability.

Yeah, this is how I say that, too.

Yeah.

And so let me say this, son, you said earlier, you know, you were surprised having, having got the bold apology on making a case against the cessationist film is what they were doing, and against cessationism.

And, you know, at the Christian podcast community, one of the things we've said is, you know, we're going to have differences.

That's why we do this theology throwdown.

But we want to respect one another in our differences, and we just don't want people misrepresenting.

So that's one of the things when we, as admins, bring people in, we're looking that we respect one another's viewpoints and we don't misrepresent, but to what Keith just said is an important thing.

And earlier in the episode, I read to you out of Romans chapter 12.

And the thing that I see is the way that continuationists will argue is that these gifts we're Talking about in First Corinthians, chapter 12 Are gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So these gifts come upon you.

The Holy Spirit does it.

It's not you doing it, it's the Holy Spirit doing that.

I read Romans, chapter 12, the same word charisma is used there to.

To for those set of gifts.

And yet when we look at those set of gifts, it's clearly something you have full control over.

I can teach, I can exhort, I can give.

And there he is giving instruction on how to use the gifts here in First Corinthians 12.

I don't think he's giving instruction how to use it, but in Romans 12, he's saying, you give, give liberally.

That's an instruction on how to give, right?

So with each of those, he's giving the instructions of them.

I believe that if it's a gift, like Keith just said, it's something you can do.

So if I have the gift of healing, I can do it.

I personally.

My opinion, I don't have any continuations here tonight to counter me on it.

But I personally think the reason that they say, well, these gifts have to be done by the Holy Spirit is because if it's a gift, you can control the way Peter and Paul were able to control it.

You know, they could just say to someone, you're healed.

And they were healed.

I think it's something.

When you're given that gift, as Keith said, you have the gift, you're not taught the gift.

And if it's like all the other gifts, then you can exercise that gift.

I think that.

I just personally think these gifts are different because, hey, if you say you have the gift of healing, the argument I always say is you should be able to empty the local hospital near you, else you don't love your neighbor, you know, and they would.

They would challenge it and you know, say, that's not a fair thing because this is from the Holy Spirit.

Then why is the teaching, the giving, the mercy, the exhortation, the service, why are those different?

What may.

So are there two different categories of gifts?

If not, what's the difference?

If we had someone on, that was going to be a question I was going to ask of a continuationist.

I don't know if any of you would want to have dealt with enough continuationists.

You want to give an answer that you expect they would give.

If not, I'm going to move on to a different topic for us.

Oh, I like to.

Oh, sorry.

No, no, go ahead, Daniel.

Say I like to give.

Like, I remember having some Internet conversations with kind of oneness Pentecostals.

And when they talk about, you know, the miraculous gifts, especially of tongues, I would ask them questions about, you know, that theirs were heavenly languages.

Of course, you first lay ask about the foreign languages.

And they'd say that, well, that's not an operation.

Right now, God has left us with the, you know, angelic and prayer languages.

So then it's like, well, is that a cessation in a form like God has ceased the gift of foreign tongues?

But then I would ask questions about, well, if these are languages, then why can't we record people speaking them and have linguists decipher a lexicon from them?

We have some recordings of people speaking in tongues.

Why hasn't anyone ever like the Rosetta.

So Rosetta Stone deciphered a lexicon and come up with a grammar.

And then they're not too happy about that.

But.

Go ahead, Aaron.

Well, a lot of this from a continuationist standpoint comes down to a question of experience.

What they've experienced, what they've seen.

And when I was asking Grok about its views on this particular statement, it did lean heavily.

So there have been a lot of reports that these things have happened.

It says, actually, I'll quote it right here.

It says, the global prevalence, prevalence of reported miracles, healings and tongues and modern Christianity, especially in rapidly growing churches, suggests that something akin to spiritual gifts persists.

While not all claims are verifiable, their volume and consistency across cultures align with continuationist expectations.

Now, that's not its conclusion, but it did.

It made some really balanced views on both sides.

And this idea of experience is really huge.

And this is where I like to bring up a very personal story.

I.

I myself have on many occasions in my life, been able to I to know something that I, Aaron Brewster, shouldn't have known.

I knew something was happening.

I knew something had transpired.

Now, I would tell my stories, but my stories are not nearly as interesting as my mom.

My mom on two different occasions.

And then I'll just tell you the first time it happened.

She was driving in a vehicle with my dad, who at the time I think was her fiance, and they were stopped at a stoplight.

And my dad remembers.

All of a sudden my mom threw her hands out to the dashboard of the car and screamed.

They're just sitting at a stoplight.

And all of a sudden my dad was like, what's going on?

What happened?

And my mom said, it's the strangest thing.

Like, I.

I was.

I was sitting in my brother's car, and she.

She named the car that he.

That he drove.

I was sitting in that car at this intersection right here, and the light turned green and he started to drive through, but somebody in driving this kind of car, and she named the car and the color ran the red light and T boned him.

My dad was like, well, that's really weird because we're just sitting here at a red light.

That didn't happen.

You can imagine the questions that might go through your head if you're, if your fiance, your girlfriend were to say something like that to you.

It was, it was within a few weeks that my uncle, driving the car my mom thought she was in at that intersection, went through that light when the light turned green and was T boned by the exact car my mom said was going to hit him because it ran a red light.

Now my mom was a Christian.

My mom was saved out of Catholicism.

Her, her family's coming to.

The cry to Christ was amazing, wonderful story.

I have no significant doubts at all.

I'm not God, obviously.

I have no significant doubts in my mother's salvation testimony or the fact that she was saved at that one particular time.

What was that?

What does that represent?

You know, when somebody like my mom.

Let's just put my, put ourselves into her shoes for a second.

When somebody like my mom actually had that experience and then she goes to the scriptures and she reads things about people prophesying and, and being able to see the, see future events.

When she hears arguments from cessationists and when.

And she herself is a sensationist, by the way.

I will tell you that my mom is a cessationist.

But when, but when somebody like that has that experience, what are they supposed to do?

And this is where I think that we secessionists get into a lot of trouble because there are things happening in the world that are unexplainable.

Could they be falsified?

Yes.

Could people be lying?

Yes.

Could people be self deceived?

Yes.

Could this be in some cases actually demonic activity?

Yes.

But the one thing that sticks out to me is being very interesting.

Are these Jesus visions, these Jesus dreams happening in Middle Eastern countries.

I personally sit back and I don't have an answer for this.

I don't believe that God speaks to us in dreams.

I believe that we have the canon, the scripture is sufficient.

We don't need to rest on that.

But I do see interesting things happen.

People who don't have access to the scriptures in places where Christianity is illegal are having similar dreams slash visions where this person who they believe to be Jesus Christ is saying similar things, calling them to him.

And we're seeing what people are calling revivals and things like that.

Now it's all second thoughts, third, fourth, fifth hand information.

But the question does have to be asked if it, if even one of those cases actually did happen that resulted in true conversion and coming, someone coming to the Lord and worshiping the God of the Bible and so on and so forth, then we cessationists need to be very careful that we don't just automatically dismiss that.

But back, back to my mom, back to that, that story I just told.

That's why my words at the very beginning, I shared what I shared because when it was, that's in my family.

And again, I, I've had interesting examples as well where there are things that I, that were happening that I knew would happen.

I knew exactly what was involved.

I know where it was happening.

I knew who was involved and what, sorry, what they were doing.

And there's no human explanation for why I should have known that.

But in that moment I did.

Is that a spiritual gift?

I don't believe so.

I can't, I can't choose to exercise that.

I can't make that happen.

I can't drum that up.

I don't put any stock that it's ever going to happen again until it happens.

And I'm like, oh, look, it happened again.

But is that something that too many cessationists say is absolutely impossible?

That can only happen when people are lying or possessed by Satan?

Well, that's where I think we get in trouble.

So turn over to you guys to speak into that.

Yeah, well, let me, let me address a little bit of it.

And that is, I mean, I like what Justin Peter says.

I can't exegete your experience.

Right.

I, I, that your experience is not scripture.

So, so it becomes a thing of.

It's subjective.

And you're right, there's lots of stories and they're always some foreign country where there's no video camera.

Right.

But let me give.

Every time.

Yeah, so let me give Matt's, Matt Slick's experience.

I'll speak for him.

Matt, you know, and, and I've, I've heard this story from Matt several times.

I believe that it has.

You know, when, when he, he and I first talked about this, he believed he, he had said he didn't at first remember, but now he says he had a very clear memory of it.

But he has a woman who, he told her she was not going to go to the Mission Field.

She was going to, you know, she wasn't sure to go to Mission field or get married.

And he had said, you're not going to go to Mission Field.

You're, you're going to stay here.

You're going to get married.

And she went.

She was going to, I think, Australia.

And she got as far as UK and turned around, came back, met a guy, got married, had a child.

Now, when I first.

We first talked about it, he didn't remember all of the details.

She had told him the details.

And then he.

He was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So could it be some of these cases, like in Matt's case?

I believe, like Matt will say, are you saying it's demonic?

No, I don't think it's demonic.

I think we all have a failed memory.

And you.

We remember, you know, because I asked Matt what.

What of the.

That, you know, prophecy didn't come true.

And he didn't know what else was said other than really what.

What she had reminded him of.

And so now he says he has a clear memory of that.

But the thing is, do we.

Could it be that what he's remembering is he's remembering details that may have been said, but not everything and the things that were remembered are things that fit what actually happened.

Okay, that's possible.

Now, one thing I'm just going to say, and then I'll open up to others, is we need to be careful with our language and be more precise.

What most in the charismatic circles would call, you know, prophecy, I would call providence.

And I think that's what's in play again, as Aaron, you said, I believe that gifts are something we can exercise.

That's what a gift is.

So if I have a gift of prophecy, I can exercise that.

I can exercise the gift of teaching.

I can exercise the gift of languages.

I think the distinction ends up being made because those that believe in continuationism, you know, can't exercise it.

Matt says prophecy continues, but he can't exercise it.

I would say if that happened, as Matt recalls, that's called providence.

God working through things to come about at a certain time.

That, yes, Matt might have said something.

He didn't think of it as a prophecy at the time.

That's, again, a different difference.

I think that if you have that gift, you're exercising it.

You know, it is a prophecy.

But that would be the difference.

I would say that it's God's providence, how God works through people.

So who's doing the.

If there is something miraculous?

And charismatics often accuse cessationists of not believing in miracles.

I don't know a single cessationist that doesn't believe God continues to do miracles today.

I mean, the most strongest cessationist I know would probably be Justin Peters.

And he's constantly saying he believes that God does miracles today, but notice the difference.

He's not giving the gift of miracles today.

And I think that's what Aaron was pointing out and what I would hold to in the distinction, I think we need to make.

God doesn't give a gift of miracles.

He's the one doing the miracle, and he does it as part of his providence, not as part of a spiritual gift.

That's the distinction I would make.

Let me open up, Spencer.

You've been quiet for a while.

I'll let you, you know.

You know, we're gonna.

You know, we'll start winding down, but I'll let you kind of wrap up any things you might want to add to this or.

Or things you think we should be discussing.

No, I think that was a good distinction there.

I mean, that's discussions that I've had in my own life with people who believe in the charismatic gifts is, you know, from their experience and what they've seen, especially, you know, as far as gifts of healing, you know, and these sorts of things.

It's discussions around, well, what do you suppose happened when you prayed and they weren't healed, you know, what was?

What's the distinction there?

And, you know, it would always be trying to get them to see that it's God who does the miracle.

And of course, we still believe that God does miracles.

We pray for him to do miracles.

I mean, anytime we ask God to save somebody, we're asking him to override their free will and save them, like, just go and do a miracle in their heart.

That's something we certainly believe.

And, you know, but again, we all have our experiences.

I can, you know, Nikki's not here.

She's much more on the open but cautious side of the argument than I am.

So this would have been a fun conversation for her to have.

But she's.

Is that why you didn't tell her that we're having this discussion tonight and you.

Oh, no, she wanted to be here.

But you know what?

We were just, well, this is a conversation for a different day.

But, you know, you look at life with kids when they're younger, and you're like, boy, it's going to be great when they're older and they can do more things for themselves.

And then you're like, holy smokes.

We're just swapped with things to do as our kids get older.

So.

But, you know, she's had dreams, you know, that are very vivid, very future that.

Things that happen, you know, in the very near Future that, you know, she told me I had this crazy dream, this is what happened the next day or two.

And that's happened once or twice throughout our marriage.

So again, like Aaron was saying, what is that?

You know, you have to deal with that at some level.

And again, if I told you, you would say I can't execute that, right?

And I would say, you're right, you can't, and neither can I.

But it's a real experience, you know, and obviously I have a relationship with Nikki, so it's more real.

So I just think it's important kind of from both ends, you know, to not just go full bore into your experiences because that can lead you astray.

We know the heart's deceptive, but then also to not be so close minded that again you fall into that camp, the frozen chosen side of things where, you know, I'm not gonna believe you for any miracles.

I'm going to see a miracle with my own eyes and I'm just not going to accept it.

In these sorts of things, I think you got to be careful to, to tread that both directions.

Daniel, how about you?

What, what, what are your thoughts as we, as we start wrapping up?

I was thinking of proposing the question, what scriptures do we have that speak to the idea of the miraculous gifts being temporary or ceasing?

Like, is that something that we've actually talked about?

We, we haven't.

And, and I, you know, I had, we had someone that is a continuationist here.

What I wanted to do is have each side give their passages.

I kind of gave a passage that Matt would argue is, is proof of the gifts continuing till the second coming.

But I wanted to ask what, you know, each side to give passages that support their position.

And then I wanted each of us to give to answer the worst arguments that we hear.

Like, you know, what, what arguments against our side can, can we answer?

But yes, why don't you give, why don't you give a pat.

Whatever you think would be a good scripture that would support the.

I gave a passage that would support the continuationist position that Matt hold to.

How about you give one that you hold to Daniel that would support your case?

Let's see, I have a few, but I could start with 1 Corinthians 14, which we had talked about earlier, where verse 22, the apostle Paul says, wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not.

But prophesying serveth not for them that believe not not but for them which believe.

So why am I saying that this verse has to do with the temporality.

Well, the previous verse, verse 21, he says in the law, it is written with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people, and yet for all that they will not hear me, saith the Lord.

And he's referencing Isaiah 28:12.

So he's giving the fact that this was prophesied that there would be a gift of tongues.

Isaiah 28:12 in context is talking about the Israelites in captivity, and they'd have to deal with people of foreign languages basically dominating them.

And so Isaiah 28, verse 10 says for precept most upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line.

Here a little, there a little.

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

That's what Paul was referring to, to whom he said, this is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest.

And this is the refreshing.

Yet they would not hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them, precept upon precept upon line upon line, down at the end that they might go and fall backward and be broken and snared and taken.

So we have the concept here that the purpose of the prophecy of tongues, I guess being listed among several gifts was specifically for assigned to Israel of judgment.

And the purpose is listed in Isaiah from where Paul all quotes that they might go and be broken and snared and taken.

So if you know that would express a temporality.

So as long as the gift of tongues was there as a sign of judgment against Israel, it would be for the purpose that they would fall.

And we know that also the prophecy that God would provoke them to jail jealousy by foolish nation.

So you know that.

And it's talking about precept upon precept line of online that could refer to the fulfillment of the canon of scripture.

It's about the words of God and scripture.

So the prophesied gift of tongues has to do with eventually forming the canon.

And for Joseph, judgment on Israel assigned there that they might fall and then eventually be restored.

Yeah.

And.

And I.

I have a different passage I'd go to.

But you know.

But yeah, I mean, I think there's.

Each side is going to have passages they're going to hold to.

But Keith, let me, let me.

Daniel, anything else you wanted to.

To add or share?

Well, as far as having a scripture, I mean, the one that comes to mind is right there in First Corinthians 13, where it says, you know, these gifts will Pass away all beloved as what?

Love, faith and.

Wait, I'm getting it wrong.

Hope, faith and charity.

Something like that.

Hope, love and faith, or faith, faith, hope and love to get the order.

Right, all the gifts will fade except those.

And the greatest of those is love.

So that's the indication there that these types of charismatic gifts, they have their time, they have their purpose, but their purpose has been served.

And it seems that as for the continuationist who says, well, they.

Because referring back to that podcast episode earlier you had on, it is they would say that, well, if you read the church fathers that came right after the scripture, like, you know, Clement and some of those in the first couple, three centuries, they talk about, well, look at the signs we do that, the healings in the casting out demonstration, and, and I would think that, you know, we have general revelation and specific revelation of the scripture and there's times and places where the scripture isn't real prevalent.

Like someone mentioned earlier about in the Muslim areas, I'm thinking in certain, you know, tribal areas off the beaten path.

You get there, and if you don't have scripture, they understand.

I think those times, the Holy Spirit probably can and does enact, you know, miraculous things to prove his power.

But the preference, the preferred thing would be to have things encoded in language like scripture that you could go back to and say, because scripture to me is, well, the real power lies.

That's.

That's God's the word right there.

You don't, with.

When you have that, you don't need to have all the other signs, but if you do, all it does is serve to, you know, cement what's taught in the scripture.

Good.

Anything else, Keith, you want to, you want to add for as we wrap up?

That would be it.

Okay.

All right, Mr.

Brewster, give you your shot?

Yeah, I, I think I've said most of what.

I mean, there's, there's obviously a ton more to be said, but I think, for the most part, I think, I think we've done a good job of, of going over it.

It would be nice if somebody wanted to maybe come onto an apologetics live or even, you know, another format where we could, they could, they could answer and try to give an answer to the things that we brought up.

I think that'd be really cool.

So if you're listening to this and you think that would be something you'd like to do, I definitely would encourage you to check out Apologetics Live, which is on Thursday nights, and it's live, and you can join, you can come in and you can join the conversation there.

But I would say, without sounding like I'm trying to come and take some mediating position, that's not my desire at all.

I am a cessationist, and I do believe that God does not need the sign gifts, the miraculous gifts, because we have the totality of God's word.

However, God is God.

His ways are his and not ours are high above ours.

And I am not going to do what, you know, so many continuationists claim that we do.

I'm not going to limit God.

God does miraculous miracle things every single day.

I think of the birth of a child as a miracle.

I think salvation is a miracle.

And if God so chooses to exercise that miraculous power in a way that doesn't make sense to me, I am not just going to completely discount that simply because it doesn't fit with my.

My current theology, but I do believe that the Scriptures are abundantly clear through example and through principle, that we should not expect or count on in any way the miraculous gifts to be continuing right now.

All right, good.

Daniel, did you have anything else you wanted to add?

I know I mentioned First Corinthians 13, which is probably the most common passage about the gifts ending.

And the apostle Paul then mentions about when I was a child, I spake as a child, understood as a child.

And it seems like he's referring back to knowing and prophesying and such through these miraculous gifts, and comparing that to basically what you do as a child until you mature as an adult.

So I think that reinforces the importance argument that when the completion of Scripture is there, we speak as adults now and not as a child.

And another passage quickly In Hebrews, chapter 2, verses 3 through 4, where it says, how shall we escape if we neglect so great salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed unto us by them that heard them.

God also began bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders and with diverse miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit according to his own will.

This seems like we heard this, but God confirmed with them who delivered us the truth.

And that's an aorist passive.

It was confirmed unto them.

And then I know God bearing the witness is present active participle, but it's much modifying the confirmed.

So it's not saying that God's doing that today.

The book of Hebrews was written, I believe, a few years before the destruction of Jerusalem, when we would have really toward the end of these gifts here.

So it seems that the writer is saying that this is what God did for those who delivered us the truth of the gospel.

Possible.

Yeah, I would agree.

So, so then let me wrap up with this.

Let me give some reasons.

What from a cessationist position then, a continuationist position of why these issues are important and what the dangers are with them.

I'll start with this.

Will we have a chance to hear what Grock had to say?

Well, go ahead.

What does Grock have to say?

Okay, so.

So after, after giving a really fantastic, well balanced answer, this is the statement he makes.

He says, neither of you can be proven definitively as spiritual gifts involve supernatural claims that resist empirical certainty.

Continuationism better accounts for contemporary experiences and biblical openness.

But sensationism offers a cautious scripture centered alternative.

It says a balanced approach, open to gifts, but testing them rigorously may best reflect both reason and reality.

And I was like, you know what?

For a dumb AI, that was actually a pretty legitimate answer.

Yeah, it knows how to word things well.

So, yeah, so let me try to give, I mean, I think from a cessationist position, the passage that Daniel just read is where I go.

I think that my concern as a cessationist with people that take a continuationist position is what I often find is that they focus on these miraculous gifts and it's a distraction from the sufficiency of Scripture.

A lot of people are looking for something more than Scripture.

They're looking for the exception experience, the feeling something to validate their salvation and their script and the scripture and, and that validation becomes really dangerous, I believe, because what happens is, is when you disagree with someone over these issues and they're using these experiences to validate their salvation, they think you're questioning their salvation.

Okay, So I think that could become a danger.

Now a continuationist is going to say that the danger is that we continuationists are, you know, suppressing the work of the Holy Spirit.

We're grieving the Holy Spirit.

We are, you know, basically telling Christians to not do things the Holy Spirit would want us to do.

And that becomes a danger because then the Christians are not doing all that God would want them to be doing.

Okay, so each side has an argument where they lay out a danger of the other position.

I think I fairly, I think that's a fair representation of what many would say on that side.

I think that we can't allow though the dangers that we perceive to say that's how we are to interpret Scripture.

We're to come to Scripture and let Scripture say what it says and it's our job to interpret it by the rules.

Of language, and not by our personal experience, our theological system, or anything else other than the rules.

The rules for language.

Right.

And so I think wherever you as a listener come down, my only challenge to you is study the Scriptures, question your position.

That's what got me out of the charismatic movement, was to sit and read First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 in one sitting.

Instead of looking for it to prove the charismatic gifts, I was looking at it and saying, what does it actually say?

Is it actually instructing us in the charismatic gifts?

And I walked away realizing that the charismatic gifts in First Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 are the example of a greater danger, which is the lack of love that that church had for one another.

And their abuse of gifts was an example that Paul used to show the lack of love that they had.

So I don't think he was instructing on how to use gifts, but how not to use gifts.

And I think that there's many passages.

If we had both sides here, I wanted to go through and, and give arguments that the other, each side makes that I think are bad, you know, at least for, from, from my side.

But let me, let me close with this.

And Aaron mentioned Apologex Live.

If people do disagree, you are welcome to come on to Apologex Live anytime and join us.

As long as it's not a formal debate where we're.

The whole time is set for the debate.

If you want to have a formal debate on this, I'd be happy to have that.

If you just want to have a discussion, you could reach out to us@restriving fraternity.org but if you want to join projects live projectslive.com let me give one article though, that I want to encourage you guys to do is go to Striving for miracles.

Striving for eternity.org Miracles.

It is a sermon I did at the Cessationist Conference in Kootenay, Idaho, where I went through all the miracles in the scriptures, limited it down to the miracles done by human beings grafted.

So there'll be a link to the video and, and, and I think an audio podcast of it that you can get from that there.

And you can also have all my data, you can have all my graphs that I create where I Show through the 4000-4500 years of biblical history.

Where are all the miracles occurring within the timeline of human.

Of, of Scripture?

And you quickly see there's only three timelines where we see miracles done by human beings and they are all associated with the writing of Scripture.

In fact, if you eliminate the writing of scripture, that time period, you only have about seven or eight miracles that occur in 4,000 to 4,500 years of history.

And so the burden of proof really is if the miracles are something that we should all be doing, normative, they should be common, then why don't we see them common in Scripture?

Because if we think in scriptures where we would have, if there's miracles occurring, we would have it recorded because there those miracles occur to point to something, to vindicate something.

I think God would put that in Scripture.

But even if he didn't, it's still we don't have any history that shows us that these were normative.

So why would they be today?

That would be my challenge to anyone who holds that.

I wish we had someone in that that disagreed with us so we could have a more lively discussion.

But maybe we will.

Maybe we'll do another discussion.

We'll get Matt and Adam in here and, and it'll be a lot more lively and, and fun.

But we will be here next month for another lively discussion, hopefully on some other topic that we hopefully can find some more disagreement.

But we will see.

But we we encourage you to study the Scriptures.

Theology Throwdown is to show that we as believers in Christ can have differing views.

And it is the study of Scripture that is important for us to do.

And so we'll see you next next time on the next Theology Throwdown.

See you then.

Have a good month.

Recording Stop.