Hey, Sal.

do you wanna give the audience a little bit of a background about who you are?

as to where to start, I feel like I could be quite broad with my

response, but, my name is Sal.

I'm a. Qualified carpenter.

I am creating quite a unique pathway with my career as a carpenter.

Not the most sort of traditional in terms of, you know, uh, working

six days a week or anything.

But, Yeah, I guess my, my background's been in elite sport and I transitioned

into construction in my late twenties and yeah, it's been a pretty colorful ride.

you are the first guest that has an uh, Wikipedia account, I think.

Which is continually changing.

I feel like there's a handful of my friends that continue

to try and edit my Wikipedia.

Just, I'm adding in now.

I was recently interviewed on the Mindful Builder Podcast,

Yes, you can absolutely do that, and that's truth.

So yeah, make it work.

go back to the elite sports, sports person space.

'cause it is, it's, it is pretty impressive.

Well, I, um, I grew up in the lovely town of Wagga Wagga.

And from the age of six, I played every single sport I possibly

could, and my brothers were a huge influence in regards to what I

chose to do as a, as a small kid.

And I guess if we weren't playing a FL we weren't playing soccer, we weren't

playing cricket basketball, we were, you know, running in our backyard and

probably playing all the, a variation of all of those sports in one.

Uh, having access to so many sports as a kid was pretty, a

pretty special way to grow up.

And, um, I belonged to a very supportive family and my folks were willing to

drive myself and my brothers around on weekends and through the week

to whatever commitments we had.

So it was a pretty, pretty big amount of support that my family showed, and I've

always been incredibly humbled by that.

I was at the age of 12 when I first watched the Matildas play at the

Sydney 2000 Olympic Games, and I was utterly obsessed by not only

sport, but by this game of football.

And all I wanted to do was, you know, figure out how I could develop

into the best player I could.

Um, so from, from the age of 12, I started setting myself some serious

goals, asking myself some big questions as to what I needed to do to develop.

And yeah, my career really kind of took off quite quickly.

I moved to Sydney at the age of 15 and my parents made a really big decision to live

separately, which, you know, in hindsight.

Was a massive decision.

And at the time I was obviously very grateful and thankful that my folks

had made that commitment, but it also made a, it was left a big impact on

my brothers and that they didn't have mom around for a solid year or so.

but without having made that decision, that choice, um, at that

time I certainly wouldn't have made my debut for the Matildas at 16.

Um, so it was in incredibly quick rise, but as a 16-year-old kid.

I felt like I was in the exact position that I, um, deserved to be in.

I guess there was belief and consistency and, and hard work in,

in, you know, what I was sort of, um, how I was committing to the sport.

And yeah, certainly a bit of luck as well, but there's, there's

always a little bit of luck.

And you played in two Women's World Cups.

That's pretty fucking cool.

Yeah, two Women's World Cups and made my debut.

Uh, the same year at 16, I attended the Athens Olympic Games, which was

pretty wild as a 16-year-old kid.

the Olympics are tremendous like worldwide event where athletes from

all over the world are competing and you know, it's not just about.

Winning.

I guess it's about showing the, showing the world what you've had, you, you

know, what you've worked so hard to, um, you know, to, to be and to achieve.

And yeah, I think, um, joining the Matildas team at the age of 16, I

inherited a bunch of older sisters, and that was pretty special in and of itself.

you then traveled to Europe to play, is it soccer or football?

What are we referring it to?

So, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

I tend to say soccer just so people don't get confused in Australia.

But yeah, I've definitely grown accustomed to calling it football.

So we can, we can go with football for the rest of the pod if you'd like to.

Oh, I, I, I'm gonna lose either way here.

If I call it soccer, someone's gonna get angry.

If I call it football, someone's gonna get angry.

Yeah, there's always, there's always someone, but.

going to a World Cup, that's a huge achievement.

What, what's going through your head when you're going over there?

Like, is this, did, was it a whole new, like, 'cause you've been to two

and you went, was it the first one?

I just was sort of, where was it in, I saw the second one was in, was it in Germany?

Is that right?

Yeah, the second one was in Germany, and the first one was in 2007 in China.

In China.

Okay.

And so when you go from your first one, I'm assuming that you're very, um.

I'm imagining the emotions are very different.

Like it's a bit of a wow factor.

Like where am I?

The second one probably is a bit more like, okay, I've been here before.

Bit more experienced.

Do you wanna talk about the difference between those two?

Yeah, I mean like certainly as your career progresses, you know, when you're

applying yourself to any kind of pursuit.

Through the years, you're gonna gain more experience and, and in my case, more

composure and more skill and more knowhow.

Um, but in some ways I feel like the longer my career progressed, the more

sort of pressure I was under, the higher that, you know, the expectation.

Um, and in some ways I really was able to handle that.

And in others I kind of feel like,

I.

Perhaps I did let the pressure get to me at times.

Um, you know, whilst perhaps on the outside I was considered this really

calm, um, defensive midfielder who could really sort of control the play

and move the ball around and, you know, from left to right and really kind of

anticipate certain parts of a game.

Um, on the inside I kind of felt a little bit flapper than what people perceived.

Um, and part of my career, I guess, you know, I was injured at the

age of 26 and had to retire, uh, much earlier than what I'd hoped.

And, I wasn't able to, to, to leverage or explore that sort of like mental

side of the game, which in some ways would be my only curiosity Left.

When I reflect back on my football career to have really sort of overcome that.

I think, Matt, as you sort of said, like, yeah, I went to, um, to Germany

for, for club football towards the end of my career and when I was fully able

to, um, be absorbed by, by sport where I didn't have to work, I didn't have to

study on the side, I was able to earn a full-time income just from football.

That's when I was really able to start honing in on the mental side of my game.

So in some ways it's kind of unfortunate to look back on, but I

really do think I was hitting my straps towards the end of my career, which

would've been, you know, a couple years then after those World Cups.

you're probably, what, five years in a sense too early before it

like really blew up in Australia?

Like, is that, like, am I fair to say that like you, you sort of created the

pathway for females coming into sport now?

And I'm looking at some of those people on that team that you played with.

Sam Kerr started from the bench in one of those World Cups, and all of

a sudden, I think every household in Australia knows who Sam Kerr is.

Yes, and I'm so incredibly proud of that cohort of athletes.

Um, you know, I was in my early twenties when.

The lacks of Sammy Kerr and Van Mond, Mackenzie Arnold, Alana

Kennedy were all knocking on the door, if not had their foot in the

door, uh, with the national team.

And, you know, they were a bunch of kids who, you know, really banded together.

And if anything, they were a bit bratty and, you know, 16-year-old kids, which is

what you want, you know, they're, they've been thrust into this elite environment.

And, and they're still, you know, really just hitting their teenage years.

So I really loved taking them in underneath my wing and being like,

yeah, you guys can be your age, but like, hey, when we, when we turn up

to play football, we play football.

Um, and yeah, I guess like I think of, of the stages of my career, there's

that 2010 Asian Cup, which we won.

Um, and Sammy Kerr was involved in that side at the age of 16.

You know, and at that, at that time, that was a dream for, for the Matildas team,

you know, to be, to be winning matches.

And then all of a sudden we've got this Asian cup on the horizon and

we make the final against North Korea and it goes to penalties.

And, you know, we manage to win this thing.

Uh, and I, I'm still in touch with Sammy quite a lot.

I love to send her little messages every now and again, and I'm incredibly

proud of her as to how humbled she's remained through her career.

and she has a new goal now, a new dream with the Matildas next year

to win the Asian Cup in Australia.

And I think that's kind of special to think that, you know, she was a

16-year-old kid achieving a dream.

She never knew she had up until now, you know, with with, with her her new

dream, with the Matildas next year.

So that's kind of special to be a part of that too.

I

recall a social media exchange that you and I had, uh, probably a

couple of months ago when I said, oh, I'd love to get you on the

podcast.

And I think you responded, I don't know if I have anything to

offer you viewers.

I have been sitting here

for the past 15 minutes, not saying much, just listening to this incredible

story from a little girl from Wagga

at the age of six playing lots of sports, 12 years old, going,

you know, really realizing that she wanted to play

soccer, football, moved to Sydney, kicking her

brother's ass in anything that she's, you know, applies herself to.

And then at the age of

16 makes the Australian football and soccer team.

haven't even got into the

rest of your story yet, and this is pretty incredible.

So.

On all of that for a second, like how proud are

chapter of.

I can definitely say that I'm proud and, you know, quite quickly followed

by, without the support of my family or broader Wagga football community,

I definitely wouldn't have been in the position that I was, uh, nor in

the position that I'm currently in.

I think to start a life Being convinced by, you know, a passion, finding

something I loved from a very young age, uh, set me up with some big challenges.

Um, you know, I've, I've learned some really big lessons.

I learned about discipline and resilience at a very young age, all

because of this passion that I held.

Uh, and yeah, those sort of lessons I guess have certainly

translated into my adult life.

Yeah, so it's, I'm, I am proud.

Yeah.

so you said you had an

injury at 26.

Was that, was that a knee?

so I have, uh.

I mean, my biomechanics aren't autumn.

I have knocked knees, which means that the meniscal part of my

knees are under a lot of pressure.

Um, and up until I was sort of 25, 26, I hadn't had much of an issue,

but I just based, my, my knees started being, getting really, really sore

and um, they would start to swell when I was playing and it was pretty much

just wear and tear and, When I was 25, they went in for lack, a clean out.

there's a cohort of athletes, um, in any sport.

We belong to a certain era where, the medical teams were under the impression

that clean outs were what was best.

Um, and we've all heard of the word clean outs in varying sports.

So they go in and essentially like clean up any kind of

meniscal tear and any kind of, um.

Any floaty bits and pieces, uh, and then the athlete is able to get back

to that sport quicker and pain-free.

But the long-term implications of those, you know, la daisy kind of clean outs.

Is that there's trauma to the joints and it's kind of interesting and

fascinating in, in in a sense from a, from a human's perspective.

So, whilst I was back earlier as a footballer, the, the long-term

implications of that, I've now sort of got an osteo osteoarthritis

thing happening in both of my knees.

like there would be a lot of athletes in my position and I think in this

day and age they really try and, rehab the athletes for much, much longer and

choose alternate pathways than sort of Like you know, the old clean out.

It seemed like a bit of a small price to pay, but a big price to pay.

Like it's sort of like this win-win, lose, lose situation with that.

Would you, I'm always wondering, could you speak to like the older,

like Australian football lows?

I know their bodies are banged up and their few head knocks and

they'd be like, I'd do it again.

Would you go through the same process again?

Yeah.

I, I would, and I, I, I am, I'm very grateful to be still in

a body that is very able, the pain day in day out is tricky.

And having chosen carpentry probably hasn't been the most

I was actually gonna transition it into that question.

'cause I was gonna be like, well, now that you're a carpenter,

how does that affect you?

Because it's a physical job.

very.

It is a very physical job.

so upon retiring, and this is, I guess this is kind of fast forwarding things

a little bit, but my right knee in particular, I haven't, for example, this

last week, I've been doing something very unrelated to carpentry and my

body feels really good right now.

My right knee is still a little bit niggly, but that's just the

kind of bone on bone that's just part and parcel of my life now.

But yeah, carpentry, I guess, was an interesting decision.

Uh, but in a sense everything's quite controlled.

Um, it's not incredibly, it's not too dynamic.

I can, I can anticipate what movement is expected, so whilst it still relies

on a lot of strength and agility, it's not so much this kind of like

dynamic movement that is like quickly changing directions and whatnot.

So that's probably how I've managed my carpentry load to date.

what got you interested in carpentry and, um, you know, how, how long ago

I started my apprenticeship when I was 28 and I'm now 38.

after I finished playing football, I was pretty lost for a couple of years.

Uh, as is anyone's experience of which I've realised in the

many conversations I've had, um, since in and around retirement.

I feel like no matter the context and, and pursuit, a lot of people

experience the whole like, identity shift and like, what do I do?

And, um, when you've, when you've immersed yourself in something for a

certain period of time, you're just bound to have that moment of like, what now?

there was several years after my, career as a footballer that

I tried, uh, to work in media.

I tried some commentary stuff.

I, I worked at Football Australia for a bit in the community space,

and I think part of me felt pressure to give back to the sport.

because it had like given me so much over my, over my lifetime.

Um, I remember hopping in the car after a commentary gig and I was asked by

my partner at the time, like, how I felt, and I just, I felt kind of empty.

Like it just, uh, didn't fill me up in a way that I was sort of expecting it to.

Whilst I loved playing football, I I have no interest in critiquing it or pulling it

apart, or why a decision made, uh, sorry, why a player made a certain decision.

So that was kind of feedback for me where I'm like, okay, I think I need

to be open to falling in love with something else other than sport.

So I, by this stage, I was living in the northern beaches with my auntie in Avalon.

And she was just kind of helping me get my, get back on my feet and I'd

sort of, I, I was eyeing off being a celebrant and I'm kind of like, Ooh,

that kind of, that could be fun in anticipation of marriage equality.

And I quite enjoying hold holding space and I really enjoy love stories.

So I, so I'd sort of parked that a little bit in the side of my mind and then.

I literally just stumbled across this opportunity to help labor with

a builder in the Northern beaches.

And he was, um, in his early to late thirties, it was just a one person

show for him, and he was literally just after employing his first apprentice,

he would contract out to a bigger mob, but it would essentially be me and him.

On our little projects, and then we'd tune in with the, um, bigger

guy that he kind of like answered to if he didn't have any work himself.

So I hung out with him for six weeks and at the end of six

weeks he's like, what about it?

Do you wanna start an apprenticeship?

And by that stage I was, I was pretty hooked.

I get the sense that your personality would really take very quickly to the

physicality of a job like carpentry and, actually doing things, completing

a task and then seeing the result.

Like there's that kind of nice sort of feedback loop, which I

know personally what got me hooked.

And I'm actually super impressed with, you know, the young guy that took you on in

that time because like, fast forward to today and it is becoming So, normal to see

more women in trade, which is incredible.

But back then, you know, 10 years ago, like, if I think back, that's

just wasn't, wasn't a thing.

how did the industry, respond to seeing you on a building site?

yeah, I mean like, I guess that was even accentuated by the fact

that, um, I was in the northern beaches of Sydney, um, which isn't.

Super progressive in many ways.

but with Todd taking me on, I feel like every boss that I've had, and I've

had three bosses in the construction industry, they've all had young

girls, and immediately I feel like.

They're open to employing women because perhaps they want their

young kids to see what's possible.

In a sense, whilst none of them have admitted to that, that's

definitely been the continued thread through my employment.

It is a good hypothesis actually.

Thank you.

fast forward to now, and I would say that I am getting, oh no, just, and

I am a sample size of one business.

I'm probably getting more young women reach out to me for

apprenticeships than I am young men,

can I actually jump in and ask a question?

You ham quickly.

Why you say that?

Because we both now have daughters and I know that sell's previous

employees have never said that.

Do you feel there's something about you now that because you've got a daughter,

that you're even more inclined to do it?

Because I'll be honest, I think I am.

that's an interesting thought because if you had have asked me that 10 years

ago, I probably would've said yes.

But now when I think about it.

And, and I'm saying this, you know, with a huge amount of sincerity, expectation

for any of my kids is that they could do whatever they want regardless of gender.

So I, I don't think of it that way.

I do, I do absolutely love the idea of Juniper, you know, getting into

carpenter building if she wants to.

I feel like it's a great pathway, particularly, you know, as so many

workplaces now being disrupted by AI and robotics, that trade-based,

you know, skillset are gonna be so valuable that I think that you are gonna

see more people go into that space.

I, I don't, I don't, maybe the answer's yes, and maybe I'm, I'm kind of looking

beyond that now, but like right now, my immediate response is probably not.

Like if I say that I am now more inclined than ever to give females a chance to work

in our industry because I have a daughter.

Is that a bad thing to say?

No, I think both perspectives, like resonate with me and I feel like the

pathway for anyone who doesn't occupy.

You know, that sort of cis male, um, background.

I think if you can be open to employing anyone, um, that results

in diversity, I feel like any position you come from, I respect.

can you explain the CIS thing?

I've really struggled with this, is that, if that's okay.

Like, it's something that I really struggled to wrap my, like, uh,

in the sense of like the, the definition of those sort of things.

I guess.

in, in a sense, like the opposite to, to cis male would be, um, like, I guess,

well, in, in terms of handy humans, we, we were women And gender queer led.

Gender queer would, to put it simply, it's people who don't identify with

the sex they were assigned at birth.

Yeah.

Um, obviously in the construction industry, that is a minority.

and the Handy humans, little collective are certainly representative of that.

And how, how many of you are there in your handy humans?

Within our business, there's three.

Yeah.

So it's myself, uh, my pronouns.

She, her, uh, our painter, Lana, who's been a painter for maybe a decade as well.

her pronouns, her, she, and then my partner, April Native Garden Design

and April's pronouns are they them.

And do you kind of all jump in with each other?

So for example, you'll jump in with the garden design and painting and the

painter jumps in with the carpentry, or it's like, stay in your lane.

Matt, it's very organic, but we definitely give each other a hand.

My project over the last couple of months I've been working in with

another chippy in his sixties, which I've absolutely adored and we've been

doing up a house in Oo, and we've essentially just got the outside of

that ready for our painter, Lana, who's gonna be coming by in the next couple

of weeks to get started on that house.

So you, so for example, I'll use Lana as the example.

Like, do you, do you work day to day with Lana or it's just part,

like, it's part of the service.

So like I'll come and do the carpentry now Lana will come in and do this

part of it, like, like a buildup, like, but you're more in-house.

Yeah, and you know, there was a conversation that I had with Lana in

the lead up to establishing Handy humans and Lana's a one person show and takes

on some pretty big projects and quite often she feels a little bit alone,

um, even though she's working in with her respective trades on her jobs.

but turning up to work every day and not feeling like you belong to a team can

be quite a lonesome, journey for her.

And whilst we aren't in each other's pockets every single day,

I, feel like Lana being able to go to work and knowing that she's.

A part of the Handy Humans collective kind of feels like she's got a

little team around her and, Yeah.

We really value value her within our little, business of the Handy humans.

And it's, yeah, like I said, it's kind of a little bit organic at the moment in

terms of how we would define ourselves, but we certainly, consider ourselves

like we are all on the same page in

terms of our values and stuff.

So I'm gonna ask a question now and mean, I actually dunno how to ask it.

And I, and I'm actually asking it out of curiosity and probably respect.

So your pronouns are she, her,

Mm-hmm.

and then did you say Lana is your painter?

Yeah.

and is her pronouns are her, she

can I just understand that a little bit more and, and I'm actually saying

this because I want to be able to show up the best that I can when someone

wants to be referred to as the pronouns that they wanna be referred to.

could you just explain that for me so I've got a better understanding around that?

Uh, do you mean in terms of the order that I shared it?

The order?

Yes.

No, that, that was just, um, that,

that was just, I don't think there's much of a difference.

Oh, I was like, that is a ripping question, and I'm sitting here

like, whoa, I've got no idea what the answer to that one is.

because, because I, because I wrote it down and I was, you know,

obviously I'm, I'm incredibly curious.

Right, and, and I hope that was a respectful question to Sal because

it was actually intended for me just to understand and hopefully

you know the audience to understand something like that, so, okay.

So maybe it was just the order that you said it and it actually has no relevance.

Okay.

Thank you.

No, but I appreciate you paying attention And tuning in.

I feel like the pronoun.

The, the world of the gender queer is something that people don't

really like, um, tap into too much because they feel like it should

be assumed knowledge or they don't wanna make anyone feel uncomfortable.

Um, so yeah, I appreciate that question, Hamish,

is it okay to ask like if like, and I, I'm assuming like, it'd be very, it's

like for someone like, uh, like myself, so actually I'll even go with generation

longer, that they've done something for a certain way or called someone a

certain way for a certain period of time.

And then that adaption to change, especially on a building site, like

building site's the worst place for change, let alone building better.

And then now introducing, well not introducing this, but like that

space of navigating and learning.

Have you found any ways to like sort of educate those around you to embrace

that more rather than just like Brock up and be shy of asking questions?

I mean, I think like in the environments that we kind of occupy here within

our friendship groups, um, you know, both kind of more hetero and gender

queer, I It's pretty obvious to me in, in that initial kind of introduction

period of people's pronouns.

And they might just state it immediately, um, or you just might know of it anyway.

But I think, um, I, I mentor this young kid in the area and, um, their

pronouns are they them and they want to get into the construction industry.

And I talked to them a couple of weeks ago over a couple, and I

was even cautious even with my.

Background and understanding of what it means to be queer

in the construction industry.

obviously I don't have the experience of being gender queer necessarily.

and you know, I was quite careful with the way that I was sort of wording

things with this particular person.

And, um, they were really quick to say to me that the teams that they've

been hanging out with and in, they introduce themselves really early on.

And one of the other chippies in his early twenties was like, Hey,

I've heard these are your pronouns.

They them like, and they literally had a discussion about it really early on, and

this person that I'm mentoring was like.

This is awesome.

Like, I feel so seen, I feel so acknowledged now we can actually

just get on and do good work because that's what I'm here to do.

This is what I'm here to learn.

Like, yeah, that type of acceptance for them was, was, was huge.

And it was just a matter of like recognizing it as if it

was a, Hey, how are you going?

As opposed to like feeling like it needed to be this big secret that you

couldn't, you know, kind of like explore.

And younger kids are better at this, I feel.

I think the word you used cautious is really cool because

I think it's us being cautious.

We're scared to not say the wrong thing or come at it from a wrong way, but most

of the time it's coming from a good place.

But it's like tiptoeing around on the eggshells, being like, oh, I don't wanna

offend anyone, but I'm really caught.

I'm really curious to know how I can actually make things, uh, easier for them.

Yeah, and I think in some ways, the discomfort that you are trying to avoid

is the discomfort that you need to sit in.

And I think.

What you'll probably recognize through that and even, you know, in how you've

framed these questions, Matt and Hamish, like, I feel like you would be more than

capable of having these conversations, but I also feel like, um, from, from

the podcast that I've listened to over time with you two, I feel like you

guys are pretty progressive in terms of, of understanding the nuances.

Um.

But I would love to see the construction industry more broadly.

Implement this type of, yeah.

Or have these

bandaid off kind of thing and

Yeah.

And I think that that is, that is important.

I mean, even, you know, and, and I, I, yes, you're right.

I, I feel like I'm, I, I would like to think that I'm reasonably progressive

and open-minded when it comes to these topics, you know, particularly

in the construction industry.

and I must have met, even me asking the question before, I, I was very,

um, I was being quite measured in, in how I was asking questions.

'cause I didn't wanna offend anyone.

So what is some advice that you could give our audience and, and

like, on how to ask that question, how to, like, just how to broach it.

Because once the question's asked, it's then easy.

Like this young 20-year-old who all of a sudden has had this sounds like

this really beautiful interaction with the person that you are mentoring.

And now it's just normal,

like.

At the end of the day, it, it is just normal.

have you got some advice for someone who maybe wants to start that conversation?

I, mean, I don't know how to respond without like complete

and utter transparency.

It could even be as simple as being like, hi, my name's Hamish.

My pronouns are he, him.

Then immediately by you stating your pronouns, which might be assumed by

someone else, that creates a safe space or an opening for someone

else to then like state theirs.

Like even if it's all just assumed, like we have this little.

Group of, you know, our walking football group every Sunday that, or every fourth

Sunday of every month, we get together and it's for women and gender queer people.

And if we have someone new, then we all stand around in a circle and introduce

ourselves, followed by our pronouns.

And whilst that might sort of feel a little bit official, it.

Basically just creates a safe space for everyone to, you know, have

their opportunity to introduce themselves as to how they identify.

And some of the older cohort of that particular group are a little bit

awkward around it, and they don't like, they don't kind of buy into the

whole pronoun thing, which is fine and you, and you respect that as well,

but at least you're giving someone the opportunity if they feel like they want

to in terms of that being a safe space.

Hey, I'm just thinking to our conversations with Julie when we asked

people about mental health and whether they're feeling all right, and Julie

always made the comment, if someone's having a heart attack, would you

ask 'em if they feel, are you okay?

I feel like this is a bit of a, I don't know, maybe I'm a bit naive here.

Is this very similar?

Just ask.

yeah, I do think so, Matt.

And, um, now I'm just thinking about, so my nannies, that look after my

kids and have done for a long time, their, you know, queer relationship

and I have sat down and had some of the most amazing conversations

with them 'cause I've just asked the

question, you know, and I did ask the question around pronouns before.

And, um,

I, I actually just said, I actually dunno how to ask this, but just know

that it's coming from the right place.

Then that's kind of, it opened up an opportunity for me to ask a question

because, you know, I've known these girls for six or seven years now, and,

you know, they're such an amazing, um, part of my children's life.

and I don't wanna sort of sound like I'm virtue signaling here, but

I actually think it's so beautiful that my kids actually see a same sex

relationship as just being normal.

Whereas if I think back to when I was that age,

like that shit wasn't normal,

and, and I think that's great.

But I think just asking the question and just having a, you know, going

with ha hands open and saying, Hey, I'm really curious and I wanna respect you.

So I'm gonna maybe fumble through this question, but please help me.

as I potentially stumble through it, I'm about to say, and it has been

received really well from Sienna and t.

if it's gonna be awkward for you, it might come across as awkward

for them too, but also probably quite endearing and respectful.

you've also had some health challenges in your life as well.

Um, are you happy to talk about that?

Yeah.

Which, which direction are you gonna go in, Hamish?

Uh, well, aren't you a cancer survivor?

yes, I have experienced cancer in a pretty, I mean, no cancer is, is enjoyable

and no cancer is comparable, I suppose, in terms of each individual's experience.

But yes, I. Was diagnosed with ovarian cancer.

and it was a pretty scary time.

where did you want me to begin

with, with that?

this is your story, Sal.

So you,

you, you tell us.

So, um, well into my carpentry journey, I guess.

Um, April And I got married.

And we were like, Hey, let's, let's have a kid.

And I was definitely flying that flag more than April.

And April was just kind of happy for me to um, entertain the idea of having

and, and raising a child in my belly.

and In 2020, we went for our IVF, kind of like I have a physical examination

And they found a weird growth on my right ovary, which, um, they took

care of, removed that right ovary.

And because April and I were still in the IVF system, they, um,

said, look, it might be a chance of going into the other ovary, But We're

just going to leave it be because, at the moment you're cancer free,

but we know that you want to, um, venture down the IVF path, so we'll

just leave it at that and just keep monitoring your, um, tumor

markers.

So a couple years past and I was getting my tumor markers,

looked into every few months and they just kept on growing and growing and growing.

And there?

was a

little bit of neglect from the medical system, but also April and I

had, relocated

and fallen out of the IVF process just because I think we're a

bit rattled by what happened in 2020 in terms of my health.

And,

Um, we were just sort of still sitting in the space of, oh, do we wanna have a kid?

Don't we sort of just, Yeah.

mulling things over.

And then the decision.

Around me.

Bearing a child was made pretty quickly for us in that we learned

that the cancer had spread not only into my other ovary, but into my

peritoneal layering.

which

was pretty devastating and that's where it got really scary.

but in a sense, super lucky when they, picked it up Because

without the IVF, um, process.

The cancer would've just kept on growing 'cause I wasn't symptomatic.

and that's what they kind of consider ovarian cancer.

That's the sort of the silent killer.

And by the time you learn about it, it's generally

too late.

So fast forward to 2023.

I was, um, in.

line for a pretty hectic operation.

So it's called a peritoneum.

these surgeries go from anywhere from like eight hours to 20 hours,

and they unzip you from your sternum to the top of your pubic bone.

And it's, It's kind of an interesting operation in.

a sense because you're completely open and they have to take out.

All of your organs from inside your abdomen, to look around for cancer.

So the peritoneal layer essentially is a layer of tissue that covers all

of your organs inside your abdomen.

So they, scooped everything out and inspected it And as you are unzipped, they

send off tissues to be um, tested and if it's cancerous, they remove said organs.

so at the end of that operation, uh, 10 hours later you have your internal

chemo just before they zip you back up.

They took out my left ovary, my uterus, and something else that

we, don't need, that we have removed sometimes when we're kids.

What is that?

Um.

Yes.

Appendix.

Appendix, yes.

So I'm sure we probably do need them, but in my case it that went as well.

and then, yeah, so waking up from that surgery, learning about my

uterus and ovary having to be removed, uh, also recovering from that

operation, having a year off work,

all led to a pretty challenging time.

Then, you know, that grief of not being able to have a kid biologically

or however we were going to choose to then sort of set in as well.

Had you already known pre-surgery that that was the outcome?

I knew that there was a very high chance that they would take those

things and I, I guess I had to give the surgeon that permission to do that.

But, um, Matt, I was.

Pretty sure that I didn't want to have like, any risk of having cancer ongoing.

And, it felt like a really ruthless thing to do.

And the decision to have a child obviously became very, very abrupt, um, for me.

But I would rather have made that decision than be risking, you know, um, the ongoing

chance of having cancer moving forward.

I'm gonna repeat what Hamish said at the start when you said that

you don't have much to share.

I'm sitting here being like, I don't think I have actually sat in a podcast

that has been this interesting.

Yeah.

I'm, actually speechless, like I think, yeah, you know what?

I think if we were in person right now, I'd just be leaning over and, you

know, if it was okay, I'd give you a big hug and say, you know, how are you?

So can can I ask that Sal, like,

Also to give context.

Sales camera's not working as well.

And if you were to say that we're gonna have a podcast with no camera, um, how

we're gonna read people's body language, then you have someone coming on saying,

I don't know if I've got much to share.

Well, I think you've proved that one wrong.

I, I, I was actually watching you, Matt, during that story and I think

you and I were both just the same.

We're probably speechless and Thank you so much.

I think that's gonna be really powerful for, for a lot of people.

um, you know, to hear that and like, I, I'm actually in awe of.

Hearing of your story from the age of six and everything that you've gone

through, where everything's happened to you positive, negative, like that that's,

that builds the chapters in your life.

And then, you know, to get to 2023 and, and hear about that surgery,

you know, and then to have the honor of sitting here with you now in

November of 2025 to actually have a conversation with you and hear about it.

Whoa.

I, I'll be, I actually dunno what to say.

Sal.

H how, how are you now?

Like how, how are you now?

Well thank you to you both for a start because I feel very safe

and comfortable in chatting and sharing these types of things.

So, um, kudos to you both.

how am I now, uh, physically, I suppose, um, as a 30, uh, 6-year-old, like

surgical menopause was immediately kind of like an experience for me, which,

um, I think my, my body has taken a big hit and given that I had the

experience of elite sport carpentry.

Then the cancer, I feel like my body doesn't bounce back as quick.

which I've had to ease back on several things, um, including

my like full-time pursuits as a carpenter.

Where I was before I got my 2023 diagnosis, I was

working four days a week full time.

Well, that

would, I consider that full time.

Um, and then since I guess in, in, in relation to carpentry,

since coming back from that

in, uh, from that, uh, time off, my working weeks look very different.

and in terms of like how I'm feeling now, I'm cancer free Every six months

I'm tuning in with my oncologist and the type of ovarian cancer

I had is quite rare.

They don't have much data on it, so they're still, whilst I'm

like, you know, two or three years down the track, they're still

very cautious and want to keep an eye

on it, which I'm kind of grateful for, I guess.

Every time those appointments roll around, it's,

um, always a bit unnerving, but the

more those appointments pass, the more confident I become as well.

but yeah, like I think like the, the, there's a really

interesting part of

that, diagnosis that I think is worth sharing given that

this is somewhat of a building podcast, but I, I worked for a

wonderful builder in this area.

His name, his name is Ben.

and when I was originally diagnosed with that um, cancer in, well,

when I, was finally diagnosed with

the, um, cancer in 2023, I was on site and I

took a phone call off my,

oncologist and, talk about feeling like a woman on a, on a job site,

but I, it was, we were all having smoke and everyone was sitting down and I had

this phone call and I was walking down this like, gravel road and, and I heard

this news, I'm gonna get a bit emotional.

I hung the phone up and my boss was, he was just there.

He could tell that I was incredibly upset and he gave me the longest hug and.

And yeah, I, just couldn't believe the level of kind of love and support

that I felt from him at that time.

and I didn't really know what to do.

I sat down with everyone and I'm like, everyone's just really polite and quiet

and probably not know what to say.

And then, um, it was quite soon after I left and I, I haven't.

I didn't go back for like, over a year, like it.

was this really intense time, but I could just tell that I

had this, like, huge amount of support from my boss at the time.

And, after I, finished with him on that particular day, we kept in touch

over the next sort of year and a half and he kept in touch with me whilst

I was in hospital and recovering.

And, you know, more than just a boss, like as a, as a friend and.

I ended up picking up some work with him when I, when I recovered from, um, my

operation and from that stint of cancer.

but it became pretty apparent that, you know, the expectation of being

on site at 7:00 AM until 4:00 PM.

Three to four days a week was just gonna be too much.

And whilst I sort of like flagged with him the idea of, you know,

maybe like shortening my hours here and there and coming onto site at

9:00 AM like for him at that time with his business and where it's at.

That was not a plausible option and I absolutely respected that.

Like we were having some pretty open conversations in and around his expect,

his expectations around commitment and um, yeah, which partly is what pushed me

towards starting, handy humans in a sense.

So I, in, in some ways have him to thank for that too.

I just wanna say thank you for sharing all of that, Sarah.

Um, I think that's, you know, a pretty brave thing to come on and talk to a

couple of guys who run a little podcast and, and tell that entire story.

Yeah, so speaking to two guys about this is probably,

I, I feel, as I said, I feel pretty honored and feel very

privileged to be able to, you know, sit here and listen to this.

Um.

so I've got a question for you.

Are you on the tools full time now?

No, so the way that my week looks now is that Monday till Wednesday I'm working

for like for my business, handy humans.

So I'll either have my own projects, which are generally sort of small one

person gigs, um, or I'm working in with, builders, I guess as like a contractor.

then on Thursdays I teach woodwork at a workshop in, uh,

Bega, which is owned by my.

company,

Yes.

is it actually,

that's, I mean, that's what Vegas is notoriously known for.

But no, my, I have, so I have this separate part-time job where, um,

so Joe Sani, she is in her sixties.

She's been a builder for the last three decades, and she for

10 years has run this workshop

where she, teaches women and kids would work.

So I've obviously tuned in with her and we have a surf club together.

We, um, yeah, we build together and we teach power tools and stuff too, um, every

so often with different groups of women.

and Friday's a little bit loosey goosey.

I'll either

hang in the garden with April or we finished our van set up, for

example, yesterday afternoon just for our little Adventure mobile.

Um,

so that would probably be my working week in a nutshell.

Yes.

So for anyone that says women shouldn't be in a trade and the female body's not

built for physical work, or women can't lift stuff on site, I kind of wanna

point 'em to this podcast and I want you to point 'em to this podcast because I

think you prove that completely wrong.

You've gotta cooked knee, you've had an extremely invasive surgery, and yet you're

still able to get out and do things.

I think that is unreal.

and I think thank you, Matt.

That's kind to point out, but I, I do think that I'm carving a very unique

pathway, like when I listen to your podcasts, you know, there's a lot of,

Uh, emphasis on, you know, building technologies and moving forward.

And I feel like, um, possibly my comment to you in, in the original

days, Hamish, was that I don't feel elite enough in the building world to

be on this podcast more than anything.

so,

I sorry to interrupt for a second, Sal, but I, I have your story in my notepad

here right now from the age of six to 38.

And yes, we have a big focus on building technologies and

building better and all about that.

But this is a story that people need to hear about resilience.

About life, throwing shit at you, about life being amazing to you.

And every single time in your life you've like, okay, great

life that's happened to me.

I'm gonna accept that and I'm gonna move on to this next chapter of my life.

Because you know, at the age of 25, when you got these knee injuries, got

your life could have been something completely different to what it is now.

You could have been like other elite sports people who have just,

you know, gone to depression, maybe turned to drugs, alcohol, and or,

I don't know, done something else.

But you've got, right, I'm gonna do carpentry and then I am going to start

my own business because I can't fit into, uh, I guess what other people

would consider normal work hours like.

This is a hundred percent a story that needs to be heard.

And not just on a building podcast, but just about understanding resilience.

Like, it's incredible.

Thank you.

you spoke about, at the start, about your youngest soccer players, football players,

whatever we're calling them, being bratty and saying that when you turn up to play

football, we're here to play football.

Is that the same with carpentry now when you find, with the

younger crew that you work with

what do you mean?

Like that would be the way that I would encourage them.

to to, Yeah.

To learn.

Because like, I think there's a, I think the hard thing is sometimes

separating work and social, like coming to work isn't a social event.

It can be at times.

Um, I'm just wondering how you've brought that in.

because you're probably dealing with younger kids, actually even younger than

what we'd probably deal with on site.

my thinking, it's actually one of two questions I've got

written down here was just, Yeah.

hey, you've try to navigate that, um, and use that experience to bring

into your day-to-day carpentry,

Yeah, I mean like, I guess my experience of late has been with like older sort of

carpenters, um, in their sixties, but I.

can definitely refer back to last year when I was working with Ben and had

like a young kind of fellow, I guess.

Um, his young apprentice was, um, you know, I spent a lot of time with

him and I think that there's a, um, certain kindness that I'd like to think

that, that would exist on, on site when he and I were hanging out And I.

I would encourage him towards, you know, asking as many questions

as he possibly could, just trying to create an environment for him

where he felt safe to make mistakes and, to own up to mistakes if he made them.

Um, which I, think is really important.

And, and I wonder sometimes with apprentices, if they just feel like

they should know everything, so all of a sudden when they Do, make booboos or

they don't quite understand something,

um, they're not confident enough to ask.

and I kind of feel like.

I wish I was in a team sometimes where I had more

access to young people because I feel like, um, that has always been an interest

of mine.

Um, encouraging people into an area where they, you know, no silly questions to be

asked, And um, which is definitely my attitude as an

athlete as well with the Sam Kerr.

Caitlin Ford, um, et cetera.

But yeah, I think

it's, it's important to be able to create a safe space for

people to know that, like, yeah, they don't have to know everything

at any given time.

I think that's great.

I actually think there's a really great message there for apprentices.

I think they need to own the fact that they don't know everything and wear

that as a badge of honor, because I, certainly don't want, you know, a young

apprentice thinking they know everything.

Like, I want them to be hungry, hungry for, for knowing answers.

Like say, Hey, I don't know this.

Can you please explain it to me?

So just own that back.

At the start, and it ki it kind of links back to everything we've

sort of spoken about at the start.

You said, as a soccer player, as a press, as you got older, the pressure grew and

with more experience there was sort of more demand, but you learn to do more.

Do you feel the same with carpentry now?

Um, I guess that kind of ties into your, to the whole

philosophy of continuing to learn.

Like I. I still feel like a young carpenter and I'm, I'm hungry to learn.

And, I came across this quote, well, don't, I don't even know if it's a

quote, but it's my, it's my approach.

As a carpenter whilst, you know, I have to kind of keep my elite

sports person at bay sometimes.

Like Hamish, you posted something about some work yesterday and I'm

like, oh, wish I lived in your area.

I'd be up for that for sure.

But in actual fact, like I can't be saying, I can't be throwing my

myself at carpentry the way that I, want to be in terms of like

answering to my elite athlete brain.

but definitely within my context, within the path that I'm creating for myself

as a carpenter, like I, wanna be better

tomorrow than what I am today.

And as of today, I wanna be better than what I was yesterday.

And, that's, that's partly my,

um, growth mindset at the moment.

so it's, it's pretty contained.

I don't have any grand plans with my career, but I basically just wanna

do good work and yeah, be better tomorrow than what I am today.

I think if you don't achieve anything more on your career, you've already achieved

enough to be really honest with you.

Thanks,

I I, I, agree with that, but I, I agree with that, Matt, but I

also am so excited to be following

yeah.

Yeah, I, yeah, I mean that in a good way.

I just wanna say thank you so much for sh for, for sharing your story because um,

it's been super interesting and, and I think whatever part of this podcast that

people tune, you know, decide to kind of really zone in on, I think there's

a lot of lessons to be learned in.

A number of different parts of the, of, of your story.

Um, so thank you so much for sharing that with us today.

Thanks for having me.

You too.

I, really appreciate

And how do we get onto you?

How do people reach out to you?

We don't have a website.

It's pretty much just our Instagram, but we'd like to create some version

of a newsletter moving forward.

But at the moment, that's the only means, which has all our

contact details and stuff, so it's just underscore handy humans.

thank, thank you so much.

Uh, really excited that we connected and, um, and also shout out to Brad

from Sanford BuildCo because, um, he's actually the person that, pointed

me to your, um, Instagram page.

Yeah, really enjoy.

Brad got a lot of time for him.