1 00:00:03,156 --> 00:00:06,578 What does the future of podcast monetization look like? 2 00:00:06,578 --> 00:00:11,982 And in particular, what does the future look like for the independent creator? 3 00:00:11,982 --> 00:00:15,124 It's something that a lot of podcasters concern themselves with, especially in the 4 00:00:15,124 --> 00:00:20,148 world of minimum revenue guarantees and minimum download thresholds for 5 00:00:20,148 --> 00:00:24,691 advertisements and big words being thrown around like programmatic advertising. 6 00:00:24,832 --> 00:00:29,315 The good news is that as an indie, maybe we don't need to worry about any of that 7 00:00:29,315 --> 00:00:30,552 so much. 8 00:00:30,552 --> 00:00:33,793 That is what we're going to dive into today here on the podcast accelerator. 9 00:00:33,793 --> 00:00:38,376 I'm your host, Mark Asquith, and I'm joined by a great friend and a wonderful 10 00:00:38,376 --> 00:00:44,439 industry thinker and an actual industry doer, of which I believe there should be 11 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:45,199 more. 12 00:00:45,380 --> 00:00:48,201 But we'll talk about that on another session. 13 00:00:48,201 --> 00:00:49,882 We are going to talk all things value for value. 14 00:00:49,882 --> 00:00:53,244 We're going to talk all things monetization. 15 00:00:53,244 --> 00:00:56,766 We're going to talk all things the future for the indie creator. 16 00:00:56,766 --> 00:01:00,267 And we're going to talk about the brand new platform called 17 00:01:00,332 --> 00:01:01,014 hot fans. 18 00:01:01,014 --> 00:01:02,378 Welcome to the show, Mr. 19 00:01:02,378 --> 00:01:04,126 Sam Sethi How are you my friend? 20 00:01:04,126 --> 00:01:08,637 Wow, I need to have one of you just lead in me, go in front of me in rooms and just 21 00:01:08,637 --> 00:01:09,219 introduce me. 22 00:01:09,219 --> 00:01:10,521 That'll be amazing. 23 00:01:11,003 --> 00:01:11,785 Toastmaster. 24 00:01:11,785 --> 00:01:13,086 like a David Brent thing. 25 00:01:13,086 --> 00:01:15,670 We'll get a nice boom box on my shoulder. 26 00:01:15,670 --> 00:01:17,472 We'll play a little bit of Tina Turner. 27 00:01:17,472 --> 00:01:18,073 You're the best. 28 00:01:18,073 --> 00:01:20,855 We'll just any room you need, my friend, I'm there. 29 00:01:20,868 --> 00:01:21,309 I'm ready. 30 00:01:21,309 --> 00:01:21,991 I'm ready. 31 00:01:21,991 --> 00:01:22,412 That's it. 32 00:01:22,412 --> 00:01:23,254 We're done. 33 00:01:23,254 --> 00:01:23,695 Right. 34 00:01:23,695 --> 00:01:24,435 Hello. 35 00:01:25,556 --> 00:01:27,077 Hello. 36 00:01:28,377 --> 00:01:33,659 I don't like doing this because I know that everyone really should know you like 37 00:01:33,659 --> 00:01:36,099 I know you because I know the fantastic work that you do in the industry. 38 00:01:36,099 --> 00:01:38,420 But I want to get to some of the cool stuff that you're up to with, with the 39 00:01:38,420 --> 00:01:41,821 product that you've got and some of the thinking that you do, which I think is 40 00:01:41,821 --> 00:01:44,762 vital, but I'm going to do the thing that everyone else does at the end. 41 00:01:44,902 --> 00:01:47,563 I'm going to say, Sam, tell us what you do. 42 00:01:47,843 --> 00:01:50,463 And importantly, give us your bloody website, mate. 43 00:01:51,770 --> 00:01:56,193 Okay, what I do, I co-host Pod News Weekly with James Cridland. 44 00:01:56,895 --> 00:01:59,056 We've been doing that for about three years. 45 00:01:59,136 --> 00:02:00,297 And so that's great fun. 46 00:02:00,297 --> 00:02:05,062 It allows me to interview cool people and talk with James about what's going on in 47 00:02:05,062 --> 00:02:07,223 the industry on a weekly basis. 48 00:02:07,264 --> 00:02:10,386 And it's so, so hectic every week. 49 00:02:10,466 --> 00:02:12,788 Beginning of the week, I think, Oh God, what we're going to talk about this week. 50 00:02:12,788 --> 00:02:15,591 And by the end of the week, it's like, Jesus, cut that we haven't got enough 51 00:02:15,591 --> 00:02:16,011 time. 52 00:02:16,011 --> 00:02:18,893 And invariably, the Pod News Weekly 53 00:02:18,922 --> 00:02:21,506 We tried to make it a half hour podcast at the beginning. 54 00:02:21,506 --> 00:02:23,829 It's invariably 90 minutes on average. 55 00:02:23,829 --> 00:02:25,292 It's ridiculously long. 56 00:02:25,292 --> 00:02:27,414 So apologies to everyone about that. 57 00:02:27,836 --> 00:02:32,383 And then on the side, just to keep myself busy, I've got a new podcasting platform 58 00:02:32,383 --> 00:02:33,784 called podvans.fm. 59 00:02:36,740 --> 00:02:37,120 I love it. 60 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,041 I want to dig into that in just a second. 61 00:02:39,041 --> 00:02:41,783 And before we do that, though, I do, I want to set the scene. 62 00:02:41,783 --> 00:02:46,806 I think that pod news weekly 30 minute aspiration is actually a really good place 63 00:02:46,806 --> 00:02:49,928 to start because that has been the situation in podcasting. 64 00:02:50,669 --> 00:02:56,012 I mean, I want to say at least for the last five or six years, it was felt a 65 00:02:56,012 --> 00:02:57,013 little different before that. 66 00:02:57,013 --> 00:02:59,895 It was there was a lot going on, but it didn't. 67 00:03:00,155 --> 00:03:04,238 It wasn't I don't want to say mainstream, but it wasn't as close to mainstream as it 68 00:03:04,238 --> 00:03:06,879 is now, which then incurred the fact that, you know, 69 00:03:06,948 --> 00:03:09,349 wasn't as much money coming through it because of that there was much less 70 00:03:09,349 --> 00:03:13,190 interest and then there was this startup boom there was this money boom there was 71 00:03:13,190 --> 00:03:18,852 this boom of acquisitions and everything just seemed to go crazy 2017 2018 ish and 72 00:03:19,293 --> 00:03:25,115 things started to change so as someone that's really at the forefront of the news 73 00:03:25,115 --> 00:03:29,857 and the response to the news every single week it's easy for me to sit here and say 74 00:03:29,857 --> 00:03:32,678 things have changed things are slowing down and for other people to comment and 75 00:03:32,678 --> 00:03:35,739 say things are slowing down but like is it 76 00:03:36,116 --> 00:03:36,919 Is that true? 77 00:03:36,919 --> 00:03:40,310 It doesn't feel like what you're saying matches with some of the narrative that we 78 00:03:40,310 --> 00:03:40,772 see online. 79 00:03:40,772 --> 00:03:42,275 It seems as busy as ever. 80 00:03:42,794 --> 00:03:48,417 I think what we're seeing is that people are still actively involved in podcasting. 81 00:03:49,178 --> 00:03:50,138 Yeah, there is a slowdown. 82 00:03:50,138 --> 00:03:54,661 I mean, we all know that COVID resulted in people sat at home bit bored, got a mic 83 00:03:54,661 --> 00:03:57,703 out, started a podcast anchor gave it away for free. 84 00:03:57,904 --> 00:04:03,727 We got a influx of podcasts that you know, let's be honest, some were not very good 85 00:04:03,727 --> 00:04:04,748 and some were okay. 86 00:04:04,748 --> 00:04:07,050 But but it wasn't 87 00:04:07,050 --> 00:04:08,090 professionalizing it. 88 00:04:08,090 --> 00:04:11,213 Now what we've seen post COVID, of course, is a lot of that's gone away, people have 89 00:04:11,213 --> 00:04:12,293 gone back to work. 90 00:04:12,293 --> 00:04:13,534 And that's fine. 91 00:04:13,754 --> 00:04:18,398 We've seen also companies now the stock markets are beginning to say to companies 92 00:04:18,398 --> 00:04:22,821 like a cast and others look, oh, you, you've got some money. 93 00:04:22,821 --> 00:04:24,042 Now we want to see some profit. 94 00:04:24,042 --> 00:04:27,004 Yeah, great that you are still revenue generating. 95 00:04:27,004 --> 00:04:31,267 But Spotify, a cast, podimo, all these others, let's see the money. 96 00:04:31,267 --> 00:04:35,289 And so there's been some downsizing of people and cuts. 97 00:04:35,942 --> 00:04:40,303 I think the exclusives that were out there, it was a good idea to start off 98 00:04:40,303 --> 00:04:40,523 with. 99 00:04:40,523 --> 00:04:44,984 Let's get, you know, big high profile names, see if we can generate some numbers 100 00:04:44,984 --> 00:04:49,465 around it in terms of people and that will lead to more revenue and profitability. 101 00:04:49,465 --> 00:04:51,546 Hopefully didn't quite work. 102 00:04:51,606 --> 00:04:56,027 But I think again, looking at global, there have been some amazing alternatives 103 00:04:56,027 --> 00:04:58,028 where there's actually been a very clever strategy. 104 00:04:58,028 --> 00:04:59,848 So the news agents been brilliant. 105 00:04:59,848 --> 00:05:04,089 I mean, the numbers you guys are hitting are knocking it out of the park, but also, 106 00:05:04,089 --> 00:05:05,209 you know, look at. 107 00:05:06,354 --> 00:05:10,916 The rest is, you know, Goldhanger Productions podcast. 108 00:05:10,916 --> 00:05:14,077 They've got, the rest is politics, the rest is football, and they're doing really 109 00:05:14,077 --> 00:05:16,357 well with all of their titles. 110 00:05:16,478 --> 00:05:22,020 And I think crowd networks, there's a lot of good solid companies who are producing 111 00:05:22,020 --> 00:05:26,741 good solid podcasts that are generating real income and real revenue. 112 00:05:26,890 --> 00:05:29,370 Now, what does that mean going down the long tail? 113 00:05:29,370 --> 00:05:31,051 Yeah, it's still hard work. 114 00:05:31,051 --> 00:05:35,072 I mean, you know, most people are, you know, if they're getting above 1000 115 00:05:35,072 --> 00:05:38,493 listeners, they're still in the top quartile, right. 116 00:05:39,353 --> 00:05:44,054 So podcasting is not quite yet, you know, the 10s of 1000s for everybody. 117 00:05:44,054 --> 00:05:49,176 But it is, I think an industry that's gone, I liken it to remember web one.io 118 00:05:49,176 --> 00:05:52,537 when everyone had crazy valuations, and there was a pop and everyone went, Oh, 119 00:05:52,537 --> 00:05:55,377 well, that's the internet over and done with in law, let's all go home. 120 00:05:55,594 --> 00:05:59,995 And then suddenly web two came and it stabilized and real business models 121 00:05:59,995 --> 00:06:01,955 occurred and real revenue occurred. 122 00:06:01,955 --> 00:06:03,516 And we are where we are today. 123 00:06:03,516 --> 00:06:05,436 And I think that's exactly what podcasting is. 124 00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:07,397 It's, it's seen its early days. 125 00:06:07,397 --> 00:06:12,158 It's seen its massive pop rise with crazy money coming into the industry. 126 00:06:12,158 --> 00:06:17,880 And now there's been a downturn and then slowly, I think 23, 24, the end of 23, 127 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:23,861 early 24, we're beginning to see proper businesses and proper podcasting models. 128 00:06:24,502 --> 00:06:26,589 different revenue models, but proper models. 129 00:06:26,589 --> 00:06:28,235 And so, yeah, I think we're a good industry. 130 00:06:28,235 --> 00:06:29,197 It's okay. 131 00:06:30,112 --> 00:06:30,772 Yeah, I hear that. 132 00:06:30,772 --> 00:06:34,916 And I love the comparison to web one and web 2.0. 133 00:06:34,916 --> 00:06:37,919 And we're going to talk about web 3.0. 134 00:06:37,919 --> 00:06:45,446 And I'm always amazed how it's taking so many hosting companies in podcasting to 135 00:06:45,446 --> 00:06:47,768 get rid of their web 2.0 interfaces. 136 00:06:47,768 --> 00:06:48,969 And some of them still got them. 137 00:06:48,969 --> 00:06:53,634 You know, we all like stuff that looks nostalgic, but time for an upgrade, 138 00:06:53,634 --> 00:06:53,954 people. 139 00:06:53,954 --> 00:06:55,572 Let's just move ahead with that one. 140 00:06:55,572 --> 00:06:58,072 And I think that's representative of where the industry was, though. 141 00:06:58,072 --> 00:06:59,353 There was no real need to shift. 142 00:06:59,353 --> 00:07:03,474 And you know, all sort of flippancy aside with that one, it was a genuine, that was 143 00:07:03,474 --> 00:07:04,174 a genuine issue. 144 00:07:04,174 --> 00:07:08,855 There was no honest reason to shift because, you know, you think about the 145 00:07:08,855 --> 00:07:11,736 creator economy and you think about the way that that's always worked and that's 146 00:07:11,736 --> 00:07:13,316 always generated revenue. 147 00:07:13,436 --> 00:07:15,217 And suddenly you get something. 148 00:07:15,217 --> 00:07:18,218 And I don't want to be the guy that invokes cereal, but I've got to do it. 149 00:07:18,218 --> 00:07:21,499 You know, you get something like cereal that puts podcasting on the map for the 150 00:07:21,499 --> 00:07:24,319 consumerism in a much bigger way. 151 00:07:24,739 --> 00:07:25,419 And. 152 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:30,398 you know, the boom can be directly attributed to that kind of feeling where 153 00:07:30,398 --> 00:07:33,120 everyone started to look at podcasting as a media, as an industry. 154 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,163 And I completely agree with it now that we've come out of the end of what appears 155 00:07:37,163 --> 00:07:41,846 to be that talent boom, which, you know, a lot of people say that was a silly move, 156 00:07:41,846 --> 00:07:44,948 you know, let's why, why acquire Joe Rogan's the best example, if you're not 157 00:07:44,948 --> 00:07:46,169 going to be profitable. 158 00:07:46,690 --> 00:07:49,892 I do think there was a lot of strategy in that around just acquiring users. 159 00:07:49,892 --> 00:07:51,593 And I don't think there was necessarily a need for profit. 160 00:07:51,593 --> 00:07:54,055 I think it was a loss leader in many ways. 161 00:07:54,055 --> 00:07:55,600 Um, and it's. 162 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,422 I think to a lot of people in the industry, it hurt their feelings a little 163 00:07:58,422 --> 00:08:01,363 bit that podcasting was like the loss leader for a platform. 164 00:08:01,804 --> 00:08:04,606 And again, I understand that because we're close to the industry. 165 00:08:04,746 --> 00:08:08,809 But what interests me about the way that you think and the way that you do things, 166 00:08:08,809 --> 00:08:14,032 and I think we think pretty similarly on a lot of these issues, is that podcasting is 167 00:08:14,032 --> 00:08:15,013 sort of bundled in now. 168 00:08:15,013 --> 00:08:20,157 Everything that is on-demand audio is sort of called podcasting now. 169 00:08:20,157 --> 00:08:24,500 And it's not, you know, if I go and watch 170 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:28,502 a Marvel movie, whether that's on Disney or whether that's in a movie theater, 171 00:08:28,502 --> 00:08:34,305 that's not bundled together with a home video or something necessarily on YouTube. 172 00:08:34,305 --> 00:08:39,207 And I feel like podcasting has got that yet to come where, you know, crowd, 173 00:08:39,428 --> 00:08:46,171 global, wondering, whoever's producing top tier multifaceted IP that happens to be 174 00:08:46,291 --> 00:08:52,435 delivered via a podcast to start with, eventually starts to sort of not become 175 00:08:52,435 --> 00:08:54,075 podcasts because 176 00:08:54,772 --> 00:08:57,052 we feel that the creator economy is where podcast is. 177 00:08:57,052 --> 00:08:59,313 And we saw that last week or it was last week, wasn't it? 178 00:08:59,313 --> 00:09:03,854 With the new Batman original from Spotify that just doesn't have the word. 179 00:09:03,854 --> 00:09:06,855 It's an audio original, audio drama, whatever the wording was, it just not got 180 00:09:06,855 --> 00:09:07,415 the word podcast. 181 00:09:07,415 --> 00:09:09,596 So do you think there's a challenge there? 182 00:09:09,596 --> 00:09:12,317 And well, I want to bring this back to the independence in a bit because I think this 183 00:09:12,317 --> 00:09:14,157 is where pod fans work so well. 184 00:09:14,417 --> 00:09:18,999 But do you think that is, is that pie in the sky thinking or is there something in 185 00:09:18,999 --> 00:09:22,359 that logic around why are we bundling everything now under podcast? 186 00:09:22,754 --> 00:09:27,457 Well, it's become the Hoover of the words, right? 187 00:09:27,457 --> 00:09:30,159 So when you say I'm going to go and Hoover the lounge, you're not talking about 188 00:09:30,159 --> 00:09:31,799 getting the brand Hoover. 189 00:09:32,140 --> 00:09:33,561 It could be Dyson, right? 190 00:09:33,561 --> 00:09:35,162 It's the generic word. 191 00:09:35,482 --> 00:09:38,825 Google, we don't say search, we say we're just gonna Google it, right? 192 00:09:38,825 --> 00:09:45,009 I mean, so I think podcasting has taken that generic mantle of anything that's 193 00:09:45,009 --> 00:09:49,632 audio video that I can consume digitally online. 194 00:09:49,872 --> 00:09:51,293 And the 195 00:09:51,502 --> 00:09:56,143 pragmatist, and I'll put myself in that camp, you know, would say, well, it's not 196 00:09:56,143 --> 00:09:57,644 really because it hasn't got RSS. 197 00:09:57,644 --> 00:10:03,346 But look, 99% of people who are what we call the normies are not bothered whether 198 00:10:03,346 --> 00:10:05,307 it has RSS attached to it, right? 199 00:10:05,307 --> 00:10:08,369 They open up Spotify, they open up YouTube, they consume it. 200 00:10:08,369 --> 00:10:09,629 And to them, it's a podcast. 201 00:10:09,629 --> 00:10:11,170 So therefore it is. 202 00:10:11,170 --> 00:10:13,831 And we just have to get over ourselves. 203 00:10:14,131 --> 00:10:20,578 I think where we will evolve possibly is new words will come out. 204 00:10:20,578 --> 00:10:25,199 maybe as you said, we talk about films, then we talk about DVDs, and we talk about 205 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:30,302 on demand, and we talk about streaming in the video homeworld, you know, Netflix. 206 00:10:31,563 --> 00:10:33,884 But equally, I just said, I'm going to watch a film on Netflix. 207 00:10:33,884 --> 00:10:38,026 And it doesn't really have to have that connotation of a cinema attached. 208 00:10:38,026 --> 00:10:41,187 So I think language is loose and flexible. 209 00:10:41,187 --> 00:10:43,108 And I don't think we should get too hung up on it. 210 00:10:43,108 --> 00:10:46,722 But I think as podcasters go, yeah, I mean, I think 211 00:10:46,722 --> 00:10:51,705 think it's I'm I was against YouTube was against audible in many ways, you know, 212 00:10:51,705 --> 00:10:53,046 calling them podcasts. 213 00:10:53,166 --> 00:10:58,410 I've sort of flipped I've gone like, you know what, let it be because if we get a 214 00:10:58,410 --> 00:11:04,174 secondary glow from the word podcast have been picked up by some 18 year old or 25 215 00:11:04,174 --> 00:11:05,996 year old who's just getting into it. 216 00:11:05,996 --> 00:11:10,399 And then they go, Oh, what other podcasts can I use or listen to or watch? 217 00:11:10,439 --> 00:11:11,740 I'm happy. 218 00:11:12,441 --> 00:11:14,001 They will they will eventually 219 00:11:14,038 --> 00:11:17,534 get their education curve to where we want them to be, but they have to start 220 00:11:17,534 --> 00:11:18,375 somewhere. 221 00:11:19,272 --> 00:11:22,252 Yeah, I felt that way about Anker back in the day. 222 00:11:22,252 --> 00:11:25,553 You know, you get a lot of the incumbents having a real good cry about Anker. 223 00:11:25,553 --> 00:11:27,034 You know, well, Anker's coming along and it's free. 224 00:11:27,034 --> 00:11:30,535 And if you're free, you know, if it's free, then you're the product, which is 225 00:11:30,535 --> 00:11:36,296 ironic, given, you know, that many of the hosting platforms have freemium, which is 226 00:11:36,296 --> 00:11:37,016 wild. 227 00:11:37,016 --> 00:11:38,677 And I'd sort of treated that. 228 00:11:38,677 --> 00:11:43,898 That's how I treated Anker as a, in my mind was it's just a freemium product that 229 00:11:43,898 --> 00:11:46,959 doesn't have a premium tier and guess who was the premium tier? 230 00:11:46,959 --> 00:11:49,019 You know, here we are at Captivate. 231 00:11:49,044 --> 00:11:53,027 My logic was always the same that if someone, I would rather someone start a 232 00:11:53,027 --> 00:11:58,331 podcast using anchor and it was free and then realized, oh, do you know what? 233 00:11:58,352 --> 00:12:00,374 Okay, I enjoy this. 234 00:12:00,374 --> 00:12:03,836 Now it's time for something different and Captivate was an option for them. 235 00:12:04,197 --> 00:12:06,238 Not even saying that we were the only one. 236 00:12:06,859 --> 00:12:11,624 I would just rather we were in that mix rather than them just say, oh no, I've got 237 00:12:11,624 --> 00:12:14,466 to pay money for this thing that I might not enjoy doing. 238 00:12:14,486 --> 00:12:16,327 And yeah, it's a... 239 00:12:16,764 --> 00:12:18,326 I feel exactly the same way about that. 240 00:12:18,326 --> 00:12:19,627 So I'm with you on that. 241 00:12:19,627 --> 00:12:24,852 I think that the evolution and the halo that we all feel with regards to the word 242 00:12:24,852 --> 00:12:26,813 podcasting, taking on various different meanings. 243 00:12:26,813 --> 00:12:28,135 I'm all right with that. 244 00:12:28,135 --> 00:12:29,136 I think that's OK. 245 00:12:29,136 --> 00:12:34,861 And there's merit to there's merit to open in that market, because then to bring it 246 00:12:34,861 --> 00:12:37,903 back to the revenue stuff, which I really want to dig into, you can. 247 00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:42,958 You can't bring more money in if you are not making more people aware of what 248 00:12:42,958 --> 00:12:43,618 podcasting is. 249 00:12:43,618 --> 00:12:47,039 And if this is the way that it really goes mainstream, then we can't. 250 00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:49,060 I don't think we can be that sad about it. 251 00:12:49,521 --> 00:12:51,502 So let's, let's switch up to the creators then. 252 00:12:51,502 --> 00:12:52,622 So let's talk about pod fans. 253 00:12:52,622 --> 00:12:59,005 You know, even, even now, a lot of people still think that monetizing a podcast as 254 00:12:59,005 --> 00:13:00,146 an indie with. 255 00:13:00,586 --> 00:13:03,547 You know, a hundred downloads, a hundred listeners. 256 00:13:04,512 --> 00:13:05,393 is super tough. 257 00:13:05,393 --> 00:13:08,835 You know, they think it's difficult to get sponsorships regardless of whether they go 258 00:13:08,835 --> 00:13:11,577 direct and they've got a super niche audience or not. 259 00:13:11,618 --> 00:13:14,019 And many people are put off by that. 260 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,721 There are other ways. 261 00:13:15,721 --> 00:13:16,542 All right. 262 00:13:16,542 --> 00:13:17,302 So we know about that. 263 00:13:17,302 --> 00:13:19,604 You've been a big pioneer of value for value. 264 00:13:20,505 --> 00:13:24,708 And pod fans is there, this new product that you're launching this week into the 265 00:13:24,708 --> 00:13:28,271 public domain properly is right at the bleeding edge of that. 266 00:13:28,271 --> 00:13:31,814 So can you spend a second or two just educating the audience on, okay, what is 267 00:13:31,814 --> 00:13:33,695 this whole value for value thing? 268 00:13:34,068 --> 00:13:35,051 What is pod fans? 269 00:13:35,051 --> 00:13:36,014 How does it work? 270 00:13:36,014 --> 00:13:38,339 And actually, why should we be interested in this? 271 00:13:38,390 --> 00:13:47,472 Yeah, before I do, sorry, before I do, let me take a quick step back because it looks 272 00:13:47,472 --> 00:13:49,192 blame why value for value is important. 273 00:13:49,192 --> 00:13:55,154 So when I was at Netscape, I was the product manager, we created the browser 274 00:13:55,154 --> 00:13:58,295 HTTP was the way that people learned about the language. 275 00:13:58,295 --> 00:14:01,736 And I remember going out and saying to people, oh, by the way, Mark, it's called 276 00:14:01,736 --> 00:14:02,716 a browser. 277 00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:08,137 It's called a URL has starts with HTTP and people were going never catch on. 278 00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:10,631 don't understand what you're talking about, first of all, and secondly, you'll 279 00:14:10,631 --> 00:14:11,491 never catch on. 280 00:14:11,491 --> 00:14:13,452 It did, as we all know. 281 00:14:13,633 --> 00:14:18,415 So new vocabulary is always hard to get into the lexicon of people's minds. 282 00:14:18,415 --> 00:14:23,298 The second part of that was Mark Andreessen, my boss never created a micro 283 00:14:23,298 --> 00:14:24,579 payment system. 284 00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:29,121 So in the absence of it, we got hearts, likes, thumbs up as sentiment analysis. 285 00:14:29,121 --> 00:14:33,844 So people wanting to tell the creator that they like what they've done, that was all 286 00:14:33,844 --> 00:14:34,605 they could give them. 287 00:14:34,605 --> 00:14:36,545 There was no form of payment. 288 00:14:36,646 --> 00:14:38,607 Then the creators went, well, I need money. 289 00:14:38,607 --> 00:14:40,548 I can't keep doing this for free. 290 00:14:40,609 --> 00:14:44,132 So that they ended up creating advertising around the content. 291 00:14:44,132 --> 00:14:45,873 And that's where we got to today. 292 00:14:46,313 --> 00:14:49,796 Now fast forward, and we have something called Bitcoin. 293 00:14:49,796 --> 00:14:52,919 Now, most people rolled their eyes the minute you say Bitcoin. 294 00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:57,503 And if I say it's a digital wallet, and it's called a micro payment, and they call 295 00:14:57,503 --> 00:14:58,663 Satoshi's. 296 00:14:58,924 --> 00:15:03,427 Again, these are all new words, people look at you going that'll never catch on. 297 00:15:03,507 --> 00:15:04,768 It's all Swahili. 298 00:15:04,768 --> 00:15:06,314 I don't know what you're talking about, Sam. 299 00:15:06,314 --> 00:15:10,717 Well, as I said, people didn't understand what HTTP was either. 300 00:15:11,058 --> 00:15:14,722 So there are about 50 million people using digital wallets today. 301 00:15:14,722 --> 00:15:18,485 So it's not, you know, small chump change, there are a good number of people out 302 00:15:18,485 --> 00:15:18,746 there. 303 00:15:18,746 --> 00:15:20,227 And it's slowly catching on. 304 00:15:20,227 --> 00:15:24,251 We're seeing the numbers, you know, through various wallets increasing. 305 00:15:24,251 --> 00:15:25,653 So what is a micro payment? 306 00:15:25,653 --> 00:15:27,113 What is value for value? 307 00:15:27,338 --> 00:15:31,940 So a micro payment is 100 millionth of the Bitcoin, it has to be that small. 308 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:35,762 And why do you need it at all when you've got PayPal and Stripe and Visa and 309 00:15:35,762 --> 00:15:37,663 MasterCard and Apple Pay? 310 00:15:37,723 --> 00:15:41,526 Well, because all of those take payment gateway fees. 311 00:15:41,526 --> 00:15:45,048 And because they take those fees, if I just wanted to give you Mark 50 P or a 312 00:15:45,048 --> 00:15:48,910 pound for this show, I couldn't do it because actually most of that money would 313 00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:53,232 go to the payment gateway provider, even if they accepted that payment, because 314 00:15:53,232 --> 00:15:55,093 most won't even accept those small payments. 315 00:15:55,093 --> 00:15:55,713 So 316 00:15:56,034 --> 00:16:00,515 This micro payment model came about and that's the first part of it. 317 00:16:00,515 --> 00:16:03,956 Now value for value is just a simple new economic model. 318 00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:07,997 It doesn't have to include micro payments and Bitcoin. 319 00:16:08,317 --> 00:16:14,339 Value for value is simply you mark set a value for the content you're creating and 320 00:16:14,339 --> 00:16:18,620 means the listener can agree with the value you set or disagree and if I agree, 321 00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:22,181 I just pay it and if I disagree, I can make it higher. 322 00:16:22,181 --> 00:16:23,842 I could say Mark you're stupid. 323 00:16:23,842 --> 00:16:25,983 boy, this is the best show ever. 324 00:16:25,983 --> 00:16:29,525 I'm doubling or tripling the amount I want to pay you or I'm sorry, Mark, I'm a 325 00:16:29,525 --> 00:16:29,965 newbie. 326 00:16:29,965 --> 00:16:31,486 I haven't got quite into your show. 327 00:16:31,486 --> 00:16:32,526 So I don't want to pay you. 328 00:16:32,526 --> 00:16:34,667 I'm going to pay you nothing now. 329 00:16:34,667 --> 00:16:35,648 I'm going to listen for free. 330 00:16:35,648 --> 00:16:39,850 But when I become a fan, I will trip over into paying you. 331 00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:41,771 So value for value is a very simple model. 332 00:16:41,771 --> 00:16:43,292 We have it in real world. 333 00:16:43,292 --> 00:16:47,074 You know, if somebody walks into a shop, they see a sale ticket price, that's the 334 00:16:47,074 --> 00:16:51,396 offer price, they can legally go to the counter and offer a different price, but 335 00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:53,757 we just too British, and we don't do it. 336 00:16:54,174 --> 00:16:55,775 But bartering is that way. 337 00:16:55,775 --> 00:16:58,938 It's a value for value is a very simple real time model. 338 00:16:58,938 --> 00:17:03,741 Now, what's nice about it with podcasting is because you get a digital wallet and 339 00:17:03,741 --> 00:17:08,405 you get these micro payments in them, think of them as tokens, then, you know, 340 00:17:08,405 --> 00:17:12,489 it's a direct payment between you, the listener and the creator. 341 00:17:12,489 --> 00:17:13,830 There is no third party. 342 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:15,211 There's no middleman. 343 00:17:15,211 --> 00:17:19,174 There is no I'm going to do, you know, go up here and I'm going to hold your money 344 00:17:19,174 --> 00:17:20,455 until I'm comfortable. 345 00:17:20,455 --> 00:17:21,696 There's no none of that. 346 00:17:21,696 --> 00:17:23,254 So direct payments. 347 00:17:23,254 --> 00:17:27,336 which is the root of what Web Wando 1.0 was. 348 00:17:27,336 --> 00:17:31,578 You know, if you remember Linewire, Napster, Skype, it was a peer-to-peer 349 00:17:31,578 --> 00:17:32,498 system. 350 00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:34,840 It was Web2 that made it client server again. 351 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,081 And yes, you mentioned it earlier, Mark. 352 00:17:37,081 --> 00:17:37,941 So I'll say it again. 353 00:17:37,941 --> 00:17:44,645 Web3 is very much about decentralization and peer-to-peer monetization. 354 00:17:44,705 --> 00:17:49,267 And so we're going back to the roots of the web and value for value is a new 355 00:17:49,267 --> 00:17:53,089 economic model that really will benefit podcasters 356 00:17:54,078 --> 00:17:55,718 And sorry, Mark, this is the last part. 357 00:17:55,718 --> 00:17:59,439 So the average CPM rate for an advert is about $25. 358 00:18:00,339 --> 00:18:04,641 If you're a creator with less than a couple of you know, 100 users, you're not 359 00:18:04,641 --> 00:18:07,942 going to get that $25 CPM rate, you're just not. 360 00:18:08,042 --> 00:18:11,983 So what can you do, you can go and get a sponsor if you're lucky, maybe you might 361 00:18:11,983 --> 00:18:13,943 get a few of your mates listening. 362 00:18:14,164 --> 00:18:14,564 Great. 363 00:18:14,564 --> 00:18:18,185 And who might want to pay you buy your coffee or whatever it may be. 364 00:18:18,565 --> 00:18:19,905 But again, 365 00:18:20,354 --> 00:18:25,178 Kevin Kelly's seminal blog post was a thousand true fans and all he said was 366 00:18:25,178 --> 00:18:27,119 look, stop chasing millions of people. 367 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,640 None of us are Joe Rogan. 368 00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:32,764 So if you've got a couple of hundred people willing to pay you 50p an episode, 369 00:18:32,764 --> 00:18:36,247 a pound an episode, that covers your hosting costs and gives you a little bit 370 00:18:36,247 --> 00:18:36,887 of money. 371 00:18:36,887 --> 00:18:41,671 Now scale that up to the likes of a news agent at global with 10 million users and 372 00:18:41,671 --> 00:18:45,514 you know, then the revenue numbers outweigh anything you'll get through 373 00:18:45,514 --> 00:18:46,535 advertising. 374 00:18:46,535 --> 00:18:48,137 But we're just in the early days. 375 00:18:48,137 --> 00:18:49,582 And so when this 376 00:18:49,582 --> 00:18:54,671 crosses over and it will, then people will probably not want to be interrupted by 377 00:18:54,671 --> 00:19:00,481 advertising and they will willingly pay to listen to content that they're a fan of. 378 00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:03,480 We're starting to see that shift as well. 379 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:09,143 We're starting to see the trend of people saying that podcasts have too many adverts 380 00:19:09,143 --> 00:19:15,127 because that is the only way when you have a large audience and the only extra thing 381 00:19:15,127 --> 00:19:18,128 that you can do outside of listener support, so through subscriptions, 382 00:19:18,128 --> 00:19:22,611 memberships, or whether it's taking tips as you alluded to earlier, the only way is 383 00:19:22,611 --> 00:19:26,573 to simply insert one more ad slot, and then again and again and again and again. 384 00:19:26,573 --> 00:19:31,835 So you do start to see now that people are starting to just say... 385 00:19:31,904 --> 00:19:33,184 Hmm. 386 00:19:33,184 --> 00:19:34,665 This is becoming a bit of an issue. 387 00:19:34,665 --> 00:19:37,948 And then, you know, conversely, what you then get is the model that you hear 388 00:19:37,948 --> 00:19:39,749 throughout, you know, everywhere. 389 00:19:39,749 --> 00:19:42,931 Every major production company is doing this where listen, add free. 390 00:19:42,931 --> 00:19:48,195 If you give us money per month and what I like about the way this works. 391 00:19:48,195 --> 00:19:52,057 And I'm always a I'm massively into new tech. 392 00:19:52,077 --> 00:19:56,560 I'm always looking and playing and tinkering right in the earliest stages of 393 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,521 new tech. 394 00:19:57,681 --> 00:20:00,863 And then as someone that runs a hosting company, I'm always thinking, actually, 395 00:20:01,644 --> 00:20:03,525 When do you bring this to the masses? 396 00:20:03,525 --> 00:20:08,628 And when are the people that aren't in to tech going to be ready for this? 397 00:20:08,628 --> 00:20:12,451 And I agree, you know, I think eventually people will get on board with this 398 00:20:12,451 --> 00:20:13,251 thinking. 399 00:20:14,573 --> 00:20:22,078 Because what I see as a major issue that this begins to solve is that if I am an 400 00:20:22,078 --> 00:20:28,262 indie creator, let's assume that I've devoted my entire creator experience to 401 00:20:28,262 --> 00:20:30,723 the Kevin Kelly logic, which I totally agree with. 402 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:32,676 I've got my thousand true fans. 403 00:20:33,617 --> 00:20:39,579 How long has it taken me to get those fans to become true fans enough that they want 404 00:20:39,579 --> 00:20:39,980 to pay me? 405 00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:43,681 Like that entire, if you think about it in marketing terms, as we always do, people 406 00:20:43,681 --> 00:20:48,143 like you and I, that conversion period, that sales period is long. 407 00:20:48,563 --> 00:20:52,545 They listen to X amount of podcasts, a number of episodes, and then they've got 408 00:20:52,545 --> 00:20:55,947 to discover that they like you, and then they've got to really like you, and then 409 00:20:55,947 --> 00:20:58,167 they've got to be willing to give you something. 410 00:20:58,416 --> 00:21:01,077 and then give you something regularly every single month. 411 00:21:01,077 --> 00:21:04,840 Like that sales process is tough. 412 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,422 Does this go some way to solving that problem because it is such a. 413 00:21:09,203 --> 00:21:11,704 I don't want to say transient, because I think that oversimplifies it and 414 00:21:11,704 --> 00:21:14,466 diminishes it a little bit, but it's very fleeting. 415 00:21:14,466 --> 00:21:16,887 The decision, if that makes any sense. 416 00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:22,354 So, so what we currently have today is what I call the Chinese buffet mode. 417 00:21:22,354 --> 00:21:27,599 So let's talk about Spotify or, or subscriptions on Apple, right? 418 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:31,562 Pay me in advance for something I've not consumed. 419 00:21:31,923 --> 00:21:36,687 And if I don't drop a new episode, still keep paying me because I want you to 420 00:21:36,687 --> 00:21:39,689 because that's all that a subscription can do. 421 00:21:39,849 --> 00:21:43,893 Whereas with a value for value model, it's a per minute payment basis. 422 00:21:43,893 --> 00:21:44,918 So let's say 423 00:21:44,918 --> 00:21:48,862 you start listening to a podcast and you only listen to 20 minutes of an hour's 424 00:21:48,862 --> 00:21:51,184 show, that's all you pay 20 minutes worth. 425 00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:57,071 If you're listening to a book, exactly the same thing model applies for value for 426 00:21:57,071 --> 00:21:57,651 value. 427 00:21:57,651 --> 00:21:59,293 I've listened to two chapters. 428 00:21:59,413 --> 00:22:03,378 I don't know how many books I've gotten audible that I've got a third of the way 429 00:22:03,378 --> 00:22:05,079 through and never listened to all of it. 430 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,082 The same works of video. 431 00:22:07,082 --> 00:22:11,787 And most excitingly, this model is also now working for music as well. 432 00:22:11,787 --> 00:22:14,110 And that's one of the new things that's come out. 433 00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:19,756 So you might only listen to 10 tracks instead of listening to 50 tracks, but why 434 00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:24,581 pay for the 500 tracks in advance that you never listened to? 435 00:22:26,456 --> 00:22:29,926 problem with that is if anyone listens to Meat Loaf, each song's going to cost them 436 00:22:29,926 --> 00:22:31,087 45 quid. 437 00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:33,405 Oh, if anyone listens to Meatloaf, you just shoot them. 438 00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,782 I'm going to tell that to the karaoke group at the local pub because on Friday 439 00:22:40,782 --> 00:22:43,683 night, they get wild up there, mate, for a little bit of meat. 440 00:22:43,784 --> 00:22:45,345 But no, I like that. 441 00:22:45,345 --> 00:22:46,285 I like that. 442 00:22:46,586 --> 00:22:52,710 I'm interested in the way that technology thinkers like yourself will take what can 443 00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:57,473 be very abstract concepts like value for value, like, you know, Bitcoin, like the 444 00:22:57,473 --> 00:23:04,378 Satoshi element of Bitcoin and do what all the good people really have been doing 445 00:23:04,378 --> 00:23:07,139 since day one, which is putting technology 446 00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:13,237 that doesn't feel scary in between us and that what appears to be the backend 447 00:23:13,237 --> 00:23:13,677 technology. 448 00:23:13,677 --> 00:23:17,538 So tell us a bit about Podfans because that's exactly what this does. 449 00:23:18,579 --> 00:23:25,901 It's a well thought out product from good thinkers to simplify something that can be 450 00:23:25,901 --> 00:23:27,002 complex for the creator. 451 00:23:27,002 --> 00:23:27,922 So tell us all about it. 452 00:23:27,922 --> 00:23:29,542 Tell us what Podfans does. 453 00:23:29,962 --> 00:23:32,783 And really what was the idea behind it? 454 00:23:32,783 --> 00:23:33,843 Where did it come from? 455 00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:34,590 Sure. 456 00:23:34,590 --> 00:23:38,793 So, complexity is fail simplicity is one of my favorite sayings. 457 00:23:38,793 --> 00:23:41,815 And that's a guy called Edward De Bono came up with that. 458 00:23:42,777 --> 00:23:46,740 When we started pod fans, there was no point in trying to replicate Apple and 459 00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:47,561 Spotify, right? 460 00:23:47,561 --> 00:23:49,442 Just a subscription based model. 461 00:23:49,482 --> 00:23:50,603 We would fail. 462 00:23:50,663 --> 00:23:56,808 And when I started pod fans, probably a year to 18 months ago, Bitcoin was just 463 00:23:56,808 --> 00:24:00,791 forming the Lightning Network, which is this fast real time payment system was 464 00:24:00,791 --> 00:24:01,372 just forming. 465 00:24:01,372 --> 00:24:02,973 So these were new ideas. 466 00:24:03,554 --> 00:24:08,516 Core part of it is I firmly believe that people's time and attention has value. 467 00:24:08,957 --> 00:24:14,600 And that value is I will only pay for what I consume and I'll only pay for the time I 468 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,242 listen rather than pay it all in advance. 469 00:24:17,302 --> 00:24:22,125 So when we found that this micro payments existed and it was possible to do a per 470 00:24:22,125 --> 00:24:27,709 minute payment system for digital content of any sort, that was the embryo for 471 00:24:27,709 --> 00:24:29,289 starting pod fans. 472 00:24:29,662 --> 00:24:33,883 So RSS, as we all know, is an open ecosystem. 473 00:24:33,883 --> 00:24:38,384 You can consume anyone's RSS unless they've blocked it or made it exclusive. 474 00:24:38,624 --> 00:24:43,506 And on that basis, we decided that we wouldn't have advertising as the 475 00:24:43,506 --> 00:24:47,967 monetization model for creators, but we would have this peer-to-peer direct 476 00:24:47,967 --> 00:24:50,908 payment system from fan to creator. 477 00:24:51,168 --> 00:24:55,389 So to build that, we had to fundamentally start with creating the database, then we 478 00:24:55,389 --> 00:24:56,589 had to create. 479 00:24:56,606 --> 00:25:01,190 wallets and we have to create the mechanism for measuring in real time 480 00:25:01,190 --> 00:25:03,452 across everyone who's listening. 481 00:25:04,033 --> 00:25:09,279 So we do we do a per second analysis over the API. 482 00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:12,963 And we make and then we aggregate that bundle per minute and then we pay it. 483 00:25:12,963 --> 00:25:13,563 And it works. 484 00:25:13,563 --> 00:25:14,464 It just works, right? 485 00:25:14,464 --> 00:25:17,227 We spent a year building this and it works. 486 00:25:17,227 --> 00:25:18,608 And that's the cool thing. 487 00:25:18,729 --> 00:25:19,729 So now 488 00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:24,476 when you're a new user to podfans, it's very simple, you join and in the 489 00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:28,118 onboarding process, you either have an existing wallet, or you don't. 490 00:25:28,138 --> 00:25:31,960 If you do, we just verify against your wallet, off you go. 491 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,142 The learning curve is great because you already understand what a payment system 492 00:25:35,142 --> 00:25:36,983 is, with micro payment and what a wallet is. 493 00:25:36,983 --> 00:25:39,284 So now you're just understanding how my platform works. 494 00:25:39,284 --> 00:25:43,026 And you know, the intricacies of my platform compared to other platforms. 495 00:25:43,246 --> 00:25:47,068 If you haven't got a wallet, and that's, you know, again, we have to reach those 496 00:25:47,068 --> 00:25:49,349 people who don't understand this. 497 00:25:49,442 --> 00:25:54,325 then we've got to educate you on the onboarding as to how do you get a wallet? 498 00:25:54,326 --> 00:25:55,407 And we do that. 499 00:25:55,407 --> 00:26:00,371 And then we put in 10,000 sats into your wallet as a part of the process and we 500 00:26:00,371 --> 00:26:04,094 reward you and we're trying to teach you as well we call learn and earn. 501 00:26:04,174 --> 00:26:08,358 So we're trying to say to you look, you've got your wallet you've joined here's some 502 00:26:08,358 --> 00:26:10,579 tokens here's some sats in your wallet. 503 00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:16,064 Now give us your email address or pick your first five favorite podcasts or 504 00:26:16,064 --> 00:26:17,426 listen to your first show. 505 00:26:17,426 --> 00:26:23,128 and we will reward you for completing tasks that add up to 10,000 sats. 506 00:26:23,188 --> 00:26:27,129 So when you get into the system and you click play, it works. 507 00:26:27,129 --> 00:26:29,811 You don't have to go, Oh God, do I have to get a credit card out now? 508 00:26:29,811 --> 00:26:30,611 Oh, I don't want to do that. 509 00:26:30,611 --> 00:26:32,051 I don't know these people. 510 00:26:32,432 --> 00:26:37,914 We also, as I said, we reward time and attention so you can earn by being an 511 00:26:37,914 --> 00:26:38,954 active user. 512 00:26:38,954 --> 00:26:42,095 So let's say it was a fan of your podcast, Mark. 513 00:26:42,256 --> 00:26:43,596 I could be sharing it. 514 00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:47,102 I could be boosting it, which is a comment with a payment. 515 00:26:47,102 --> 00:26:50,902 I could be clipping in a piece and putting that out to my social network. 516 00:26:50,903 --> 00:26:54,343 Each one of those is a verb, boost, clip, share. 517 00:26:54,404 --> 00:26:57,364 And we've put a gamification engine inside of pod fans. 518 00:26:57,364 --> 00:26:59,925 So we know there's 30 verbs. 519 00:26:59,925 --> 00:27:03,966 We know what exactly you do when you're in the platform and we can allocate points to 520 00:27:03,966 --> 00:27:04,206 that. 521 00:27:04,206 --> 00:27:10,268 So yes, you pay if you choose to listen to a podcast, you don't have to, but you also 522 00:27:10,268 --> 00:27:13,349 can earn by being an active fan of a podcast. 523 00:27:13,349 --> 00:27:16,429 So we think that two way value for value model. 524 00:27:16,758 --> 00:27:18,689 is what we've built and that's pod fans. 525 00:27:21,176 --> 00:27:28,379 the element of rewarding the attention of a listener as well. 526 00:27:28,379 --> 00:27:30,140 I think that's really, really useful. 527 00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:33,901 Even the gamification element of anything is always so powerful. 528 00:27:33,901 --> 00:27:37,563 And I do think that podcasting is yet to really capitalize on that. 529 00:27:37,563 --> 00:27:41,244 We see words like engagement banded about so much, but no one really does anything 530 00:27:41,244 --> 00:27:41,964 with it. 531 00:27:41,985 --> 00:27:44,586 So I really like this idea that you've embraced that. 532 00:27:44,586 --> 00:27:48,727 And a lot of people are going to start to say things like, okay, well, actually 533 00:27:49,416 --> 00:27:50,896 I listen to most of my podcasts on the go. 534 00:27:50,896 --> 00:27:54,198 I listen to most of my shows when I'm doing something else. 535 00:27:54,198 --> 00:27:57,640 And it's usually on a smart device, usually on a phone or whatever. 536 00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,081 So how do you handle that? 537 00:27:59,081 --> 00:28:01,142 Are you available mobile? 538 00:28:01,142 --> 00:28:04,163 Can people listen using mobile and using pod fans? 539 00:28:04,278 --> 00:28:09,121 Yeah, the good news is we've created what's called a progressive web app PWA. 540 00:28:09,121 --> 00:28:11,062 And all that means is browser based. 541 00:28:11,062 --> 00:28:14,384 It's not in the iOS store or the Google Store. 542 00:28:14,384 --> 00:28:18,867 We don't pay Apple a 30% tax for any transaction, which is why we did it. 543 00:28:18,867 --> 00:28:24,910 And it means it works across iPad, laptop and mobile in the same way. 544 00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:28,853 And we just size the screen down to based on the size of screen. 545 00:28:28,853 --> 00:28:30,093 So that's really cool. 546 00:28:30,202 --> 00:28:34,145 The one thing I was going to slightly change one thing there was a report this 547 00:28:34,145 --> 00:28:36,566 week Mark just bear with me. 548 00:28:36,566 --> 00:28:40,389 Ashley Carmen from Bloomberg put out a report saying that podcasters now 549 00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:44,392 beginning to fake their numbers in terms of downloads. 550 00:28:44,713 --> 00:28:46,334 And why are they doing that? 551 00:28:46,334 --> 00:28:48,836 Well, fake until you make it is an expression that you hear many 552 00:28:48,836 --> 00:28:51,666 entrepreneurs being told to say but 553 00:28:51,666 --> 00:28:54,786 reason they're doing that is because they want to get that $25 CPM. 554 00:28:54,786 --> 00:28:57,247 Oh, how many how many people download your book? 555 00:28:57,247 --> 00:28:58,607 Oh, yeah, a couple of 1000 people. 556 00:28:58,607 --> 00:28:59,988 All right, well, we'll sign you up. 557 00:28:59,988 --> 00:29:00,908 There you go. 558 00:29:00,908 --> 00:29:02,409 You can have some advertising. 559 00:29:02,409 --> 00:29:04,509 And then they find out it's a couple of hundred people. 560 00:29:04,569 --> 00:29:09,270 So that is something that is quite common, I'm afraid in the in the community. 561 00:29:09,270 --> 00:29:14,292 And also, we all know if you use something like an Apple podcast, it auto downloads, 562 00:29:14,292 --> 00:29:16,032 that doesn't mean you auto listen. 563 00:29:16,032 --> 00:29:19,773 So you could have a back catalog of hundreds of podcasts you've never listened 564 00:29:19,773 --> 00:29:20,214 to. 565 00:29:20,214 --> 00:29:24,396 But that gets reported back as a download and therefore the advertiser thinks, oh, I 566 00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:25,716 should be paying for that. 567 00:29:25,857 --> 00:29:33,541 The last part of that mark is also we don't know how far along in a podcast the 568 00:29:33,541 --> 00:29:34,502 person's listened to. 569 00:29:34,502 --> 00:29:38,164 So let's say there's three adverts, the one at the beginning, middle and end. 570 00:29:38,344 --> 00:29:40,946 We all know the one at the end generally doesn't get listened to. 571 00:29:40,946 --> 00:29:42,967 We know the one in the middle probably gets skipped. 572 00:29:42,967 --> 00:29:44,828 If it doesn't get skipped, it will get listened to. 573 00:29:44,828 --> 00:29:47,989 But we can't 100% know for certain. 574 00:29:48,330 --> 00:29:52,533 Now with pod fans, we know for certain, because we know exactly how many minutes 575 00:29:52,533 --> 00:29:55,114 you've listened to, at what point you dropped off. 576 00:29:55,114 --> 00:29:59,217 So we've got three metrics that we've worked with a company in Canada who have a 577 00:29:59,217 --> 00:30:00,898 similar thinking called Bumper. 578 00:30:01,339 --> 00:30:06,062 And it's time listened, percent completed and value paid. 579 00:30:06,162 --> 00:30:12,587 And you bring those three metrics together and you can roll that up to a creator so 580 00:30:12,587 --> 00:30:16,706 they know exactly how long each listener listened, but also in aggregate how... 581 00:30:16,706 --> 00:30:18,686 where people dropped off in your episode. 582 00:30:18,806 --> 00:30:20,987 You also know how much value was paid for it. 583 00:30:21,227 --> 00:30:24,129 And those three, when you go back to an advertiser, if you still want to put 584 00:30:24,129 --> 00:30:26,510 advertising into your own podcast, you can. 585 00:30:26,510 --> 00:30:30,171 And then the advertiser is going to be confident that yeah, actually, you know 586 00:30:30,171 --> 00:30:31,072 what, Mark? 587 00:30:31,072 --> 00:30:33,813 80% of your listeners listen to that advert. 588 00:30:33,813 --> 00:30:35,893 Great, I'm going to continue paying it. 589 00:30:35,974 --> 00:30:38,935 So again, we've got this old download model. 590 00:30:38,935 --> 00:30:43,077 We've got this fake it until you make it and use a number model. 591 00:30:43,077 --> 00:30:44,957 And again, that's all changing as well. 592 00:30:44,957 --> 00:30:45,597 So... 593 00:30:45,930 --> 00:30:51,378 The way that we're doing micro payments, it'll be not just good for creators 594 00:30:51,378 --> 00:30:56,106 linking to their fans, but it also be good for advertisers trying to be 100% certain 595 00:30:56,106 --> 00:30:58,348 that their adverts are even being listened to. 596 00:30:59,424 --> 00:31:03,725 It's such a challenge that because I think this is responsible for a lot of the 597 00:31:04,905 --> 00:31:06,646 downside of the boom that we saw. 598 00:31:06,646 --> 00:31:09,987 So where we are now basically in the industry, you know, the renewals of big 599 00:31:09,987 --> 00:31:13,548 brands looking at partnerships and looking at even programmatic and so on where 600 00:31:13,548 --> 00:31:18,129 they're doing big ad buys across various networks or different types of show. 601 00:31:19,409 --> 00:31:23,411 You often find renewals are so much more challenging than the original sale because 602 00:31:23,411 --> 00:31:24,551 you're absolutely right. 603 00:31:24,551 --> 00:31:26,591 We can report on downloads, but that. 604 00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:30,242 That was only sexy when podcasting was really, really new and it was the only 605 00:31:30,242 --> 00:31:30,642 metric. 606 00:31:30,642 --> 00:31:35,245 But now those same people are walking into the meetings and saying, actually, all 607 00:31:35,245 --> 00:31:37,947 right, downloads are fine, but what did we get? 608 00:31:37,947 --> 00:31:43,711 And you can't you can't constantly just use brand positioning as the answer to 609 00:31:43,711 --> 00:31:43,891 that. 610 00:31:43,891 --> 00:31:44,892 And we know that's happening. 611 00:31:44,892 --> 00:31:47,034 We see that at the highest levels of podcasting. 612 00:31:47,034 --> 00:31:50,275 We see that at the highest levels of ad sales. 613 00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:55,119 And we see it reported very, very often, which, as you said, leads to what we saw 614 00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:55,952 reported. 615 00:31:55,952 --> 00:31:57,152 today through Ashley. 616 00:31:57,152 --> 00:31:58,572 So yeah, I get it. 617 00:31:58,572 --> 00:31:59,413 I think it's fascinating. 618 00:31:59,413 --> 00:32:04,134 Now I think the thing that I would say is the indie producer, so the person that's 619 00:32:04,134 --> 00:32:08,675 really, really busy, the person that is, you know, getting the 50 or the 100 620 00:32:08,675 --> 00:32:13,797 download, you know, good loyal audience, but actually, they've not got that much 621 00:32:13,797 --> 00:32:14,537 time. 622 00:32:14,877 --> 00:32:16,437 What's this going to do for them? 623 00:32:17,238 --> 00:32:19,298 Is this a challenge from a timing perspective? 624 00:32:19,298 --> 00:32:22,359 Do they need to put piles of time into working with something like pod fans? 625 00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:24,759 Or how does this accommodate those? 626 00:32:25,162 --> 00:32:25,722 Really simple. 627 00:32:25,722 --> 00:32:31,224 So we we've ingested probably about 500,000 podcasts and we'll increase that 628 00:32:31,224 --> 00:32:32,725 over the next few months. 629 00:32:33,025 --> 00:32:35,006 Obviously, all 4 million aren't what we want. 630 00:32:35,006 --> 00:32:36,327 We talked about anchor earlier. 631 00:32:36,327 --> 00:32:40,709 So but we'll get all the best podcasts we think they're out there. 632 00:32:41,309 --> 00:32:45,631 If yours is one of those podcasts, all you have to do is then claim it. 633 00:32:45,631 --> 00:32:50,533 And when you claim it, you get access to a backend dashboard for pod fans. 634 00:32:50,633 --> 00:32:51,342 Now 635 00:32:51,342 --> 00:32:57,383 A pod fan sets a default value for every podcast out there at 100 sats per minute. 636 00:32:57,383 --> 00:33:00,024 So an hour show is six thousand sats. 637 00:33:00,024 --> 00:33:01,344 What's that in real money? 638 00:33:01,344 --> 00:33:02,484 About 50p. 639 00:33:02,484 --> 00:33:02,745 Right. 640 00:33:02,745 --> 00:33:05,205 So it's not a big problem. 641 00:33:05,705 --> 00:33:11,507 So once you've got a value for every episode, you as the creator, once you've 642 00:33:11,507 --> 00:33:13,728 claimed your show, can go and change that value. 643 00:33:13,728 --> 00:33:18,029 You can say, oh, OK, I want my show to be 10 sats per minute or a thousand sats per 644 00:33:18,029 --> 00:33:19,109 minute or zero. 645 00:33:19,109 --> 00:33:20,469 You can pick what you want. 646 00:33:21,738 --> 00:33:25,199 In the value for value model that will just change at the front end and the 647 00:33:25,199 --> 00:33:28,739 listener will go Oh, that's the new value that's set by the creator. 648 00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:32,621 But in the value for value model, I as the listener have that final say I can still 649 00:33:32,621 --> 00:33:34,041 change that value as well. 650 00:33:34,041 --> 00:33:40,183 So as a creator, no, you don't need to do much you go in and check that the podcast 651 00:33:40,183 --> 00:33:44,384 that you that's yours is there you claim it and verify it and it has to be verified 652 00:33:44,384 --> 00:33:45,664 and we'll 653 00:33:48,926 --> 00:33:52,668 And then once you've done that, you set your own values and then you market that 654 00:33:52,668 --> 00:33:57,090 out to your listeners that this is what we do and your listeners then have choices, 655 00:33:57,090 --> 00:33:59,511 pay it or not pay it right. 656 00:33:59,591 --> 00:34:00,892 But there isn't much more you have to do. 657 00:34:00,892 --> 00:34:06,235 There's no, Oh my God, do I need to know how to do a tag in the middle at minute 658 00:34:06,235 --> 00:34:10,417 one with a DAI link here and something else and do I need to rub my head and 659 00:34:10,417 --> 00:34:11,738 scratch my tummy to do this? 660 00:34:11,738 --> 00:34:16,360 No, it's fairly self-explanatory because you've got to, you get given a wallet when 661 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:16,881 you joined. 662 00:34:16,881 --> 00:34:18,761 So it, you know, 663 00:34:18,910 --> 00:34:20,912 It's the same for creators as it is for listeners. 664 00:34:20,912 --> 00:34:24,897 You just need a wallet to be receiving your sats into. 665 00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:29,438 That's what I like about this concept is that, well, like we said earlier, 666 00:34:29,558 --> 00:34:32,921 simplifying the complexity of all of these mechanisms and moving parts that are 667 00:34:32,921 --> 00:34:36,784 required to benefit from blockchain payments and so on and so forth. 668 00:34:36,784 --> 00:34:42,329 I think that's the real strength behind the scenes of this is that I can set it 669 00:34:42,329 --> 00:34:42,529 up. 670 00:34:42,529 --> 00:34:46,572 And I know the word wallet, I know that works, but I don't generally have to worry 671 00:34:46,572 --> 00:34:46,893 about it. 672 00:34:46,893 --> 00:34:47,974 So I commend you on that, my friend. 673 00:34:47,974 --> 00:34:49,575 I think that's fantastic work. 674 00:34:50,235 --> 00:34:51,477 What's the timeline for pod fans then? 675 00:34:51,477 --> 00:34:55,459 So this is, we're here, we're at 28th of September. 676 00:34:55,672 --> 00:34:57,965 2023, what's the status of pod fans now? 677 00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:00,295 What's the next six months look like to wrap this up? 678 00:35:01,470 --> 00:35:04,451 So earlier this week, we took off the wrapper. 679 00:35:04,451 --> 00:35:05,611 It's now a beta product. 680 00:35:05,611 --> 00:35:06,772 It was an alpha. 681 00:35:06,772 --> 00:35:12,474 And so it's mobile, it's desktop, it's in all those screens in between. 682 00:35:12,994 --> 00:35:14,075 That's great. 683 00:35:14,075 --> 00:35:15,915 And yeah, please go and use it. 684 00:35:15,915 --> 00:35:20,757 We've also built a really, I mean, talking about paying SATS, Mark, we've built a 685 00:35:20,757 --> 00:35:25,579 feedback model where if you give us a bug report, we pay you in SATS as a thank you. 686 00:35:25,579 --> 00:35:27,920 So we give you some SATS for reporting bugs. 687 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,626 If you give us a brand new feature suggestion, 688 00:35:30,626 --> 00:35:31,827 give you some slats as well for that. 689 00:35:31,827 --> 00:35:34,249 So again, there's ways of getting earning it. 690 00:35:34,249 --> 00:35:36,791 But fundamentally, yeah, you can go in there. 691 00:35:36,791 --> 00:35:37,391 You can use it. 692 00:35:37,391 --> 00:35:42,095 Now what we are doing is increasing the servers. 693 00:35:42,135 --> 00:35:43,056 We're building this. 694 00:35:43,056 --> 00:35:44,717 We talked about it very tangently. 695 00:35:44,717 --> 00:35:47,580 We're building a new music element to it as well. 696 00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:51,984 So lots of independent music artists are now being said, I don't really like 697 00:35:51,984 --> 00:35:53,605 putting my music on Apple and Spotify. 698 00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:58,529 I don't really make any money, but they're beginning to create RSS feeds for their 699 00:35:58,529 --> 00:35:59,214 music. 700 00:35:59,214 --> 00:36:04,138 and uploading those to the index and then we can download those and using a payment 701 00:36:04,138 --> 00:36:09,943 model value for value, they can get paid directly by their fans and Ashley Ainsley 702 00:36:09,943 --> 00:36:18,331 Costello, sorry, an artist on who's done this said on Twitter or X that she made 20 703 00:36:18,331 --> 00:36:23,215 or dollars when she did it across 60 streaming platforms and she made $400 in 704 00:36:23,215 --> 00:36:26,357 one day doing the same thing using SATs. 705 00:36:27,102 --> 00:36:31,546 artists are beginning to understand and artists more than podcasters have a deeper 706 00:36:31,546 --> 00:36:32,647 connection to their fans. 707 00:36:32,647 --> 00:36:38,632 I mean, we all love to think our fans love us, but realistically they are a little 708 00:36:38,632 --> 00:36:39,193 bit flirty. 709 00:36:39,193 --> 00:36:40,474 If we went away, they'd go away. 710 00:36:40,474 --> 00:36:41,054 Right. 711 00:36:41,054 --> 00:36:42,496 They wouldn't chase us down and find us. 712 00:36:42,496 --> 00:36:48,141 But if a music artist goes, you're like, Oh my God, I love you. 713 00:36:48,141 --> 00:36:48,862 Where have you gone? 714 00:36:48,862 --> 00:36:49,562 Right. 715 00:36:49,602 --> 00:36:52,645 And, and their commitment to music is much higher. 716 00:36:52,645 --> 00:36:53,245 So 717 00:36:53,346 --> 00:36:56,516 The value for value model works really, really well with music. 718 00:36:56,516 --> 00:37:00,105 So we're adding a music element very shortly to it as well. 719 00:37:01,272 --> 00:37:04,614 fascinating work as someone that builds software, my friend, I know how difficult 720 00:37:04,614 --> 00:37:05,675 this is to pull off. 721 00:37:05,675 --> 00:37:09,738 And yeah, come on, commend you on the work, but also just the way that you lead 722 00:37:09,738 --> 00:37:10,679 in the thinking as well. 723 00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:13,662 So yeah, absolutely commendable workers always. 724 00:37:13,662 --> 00:37:18,005 And I think everyone should just give that give this a whirl, even if I'm always a 725 00:37:18,005 --> 00:37:20,867 fan of trying things anyway, I think even if you don't stick with it, I'm not saying 726 00:37:20,867 --> 00:37:24,731 that would be the case with pod fans, but please, anyone listening, just go over 727 00:37:24,731 --> 00:37:28,373 there and try this and you can find that at podfans.fm. 728 00:37:28,774 --> 00:37:31,020 So I heartily recommend that you do that. 729 00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:32,181 Well, Sam, it's always a pleasure. 730 00:37:32,181 --> 00:37:35,546 I know you've held an event this week with James, which I'm sure was absolutely 731 00:37:35,546 --> 00:37:36,526 fantastic. 732 00:37:37,048 --> 00:37:38,250 I was out of the country for it. 733 00:37:38,250 --> 00:37:40,733 So I'm sorry I couldn't be there, but if it's anything like the Manchester one, I 734 00:37:40,733 --> 00:37:42,555 know it would have been a roaring success. 735 00:37:42,555 --> 00:37:45,919 And yeah, look forward to seeing you in person soon, my friend. 736 00:37:46,042 --> 00:37:47,007 Indeed, indeed. 737 00:37:47,007 --> 00:37:48,756 And we're going to a Liverpool game together. 738 00:37:48,756 --> 00:37:50,161 So that'll be even more fun. 739 00:37:51,252 --> 00:37:52,192 That sounds good. 740 00:37:52,192 --> 00:37:54,053 Speaking of that, I appreciate that. 741 00:37:54,053 --> 00:37:54,833 I cannot wait for that. 742 00:37:54,833 --> 00:37:55,753 I'm looking forward to that. 743 00:37:55,753 --> 00:38:00,155 If you would like to send Sam and I some beer money for that, you can do that at 744 00:38:00,155 --> 00:38:01,536 mark.live slash support. 745 00:38:01,536 --> 00:38:03,277 It's like we planned that, Sam. 746 00:38:03,277 --> 00:38:06,678 It's like this smooth segue into sending 747 00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:09,990 Thanks for watching! 748 00:38:20,643 --> 00:38:22,602 Any industry events outside of your own? 749 00:38:22,762 --> 00:38:25,023 No, no, I mean, I think we're coming to the end of those. 750 00:38:25,023 --> 00:38:28,665 So we did our own one and I also went to the British Podcast Awards this week and 751 00:38:28,665 --> 00:38:30,026 gave out an award. 752 00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:34,108 The next big event, Mark, for me, and maybe you might be there, is the one in 753 00:38:34,108 --> 00:38:35,809 the LA podcast movement. 754 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,801 I will be there. 755 00:38:37,801 --> 00:38:42,004 It'll be the first time back on the West Coast since COVID because of the family 756 00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:42,465 and travel. 757 00:38:42,465 --> 00:38:43,706 So I'm excited for that. 758 00:38:43,706 --> 00:38:44,947 We actually booked the hotel. 759 00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:45,908 We booked the flights. 760 00:38:45,908 --> 00:38:47,089 We are there. 761 00:38:47,089 --> 00:38:48,389 So I'm excited for that. 762 00:38:48,450 --> 00:38:53,353 And for you listening out there, if you are interested, go to podfans.fm. 763 00:38:54,175 --> 00:38:58,478 And if you've got any questions, just get in touch with us on the usual channels. 764 00:38:58,478 --> 00:39:02,682 The Twitter's all, I'm not gonna call it X, the Twitter's the best way to do that. 765 00:39:02,682 --> 00:39:05,303 And I'm at MrAsquith and Sam. 766 00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:06,967 You're over on Twitter as well, aren't you? 767 00:39:07,309 --> 00:39:10,115 at Sam Sethi or at JoinPodFans. 768 00:39:10,115 --> 00:39:13,543 Just come and ping me and I'm more than happy to give you an answer to whatever 769 00:39:13,543 --> 00:39:14,524 question you have. 770 00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:17,183 Amazing stuff and for you listening, enjoy yourself. 771 00:39:17,183 --> 00:39:17,944 Thank you for tuning in. 772 00:39:17,944 --> 00:39:19,747 It's always a pleasure until the next time. 773 00:39:19,747 --> 00:39:20,908 Keep on doing what you do. 774 00:39:20,908 --> 00:39:24,933 Keep sharing your voice, your thoughts with the world and look after yourself. 775 00:39:25,074 --> 00:39:26,235 Bye bye for now.