Speaker: 00:00:03

What does the future of podcast

monetization look like?

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And in particular, what does the future

look like for the independent creator?

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It's something that a lot of podcasters

concern themselves with, especially in the

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world of minimum revenue guarantees and

minimum download thresholds for

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advertisements and big words being thrown

around like programmatic advertising.

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The good news is that as an indie, maybe

we don't need to worry about any of that

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so much.

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That is what we're going to dive into

today here on the podcast accelerator.

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I'm your host, Mark Asquith, and I'm

joined by a great friend and a wonderful

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industry thinker and an actual industry

doer, of which I believe there should be

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more.

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But we'll talk about that on another

session.

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We are going to talk all things value for

value.

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We're going to talk all things

monetization.

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We're going to talk all things the future

for the indie creator.

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And we're going to talk about the brand

new platform called

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hot fans.

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Welcome to the show, Mr.

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Sam Sethi How are you my friend?

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Wow, I need to have one of you just lead

in me, go in front of me in rooms and just

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introduce me.

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That'll be amazing.

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Toastmaster.

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like a David Brent thing.

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We'll get a nice boom box on my shoulder.

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We'll play a little bit of Tina Turner.

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You're the best.

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We'll just any room you need, my friend,

I'm there.

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I'm ready.

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I'm ready.

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That's it.

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We're done.

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Right.

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Hello.

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Hello.

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I don't like doing this because I know

that everyone really should know you like

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I know you because I know the fantastic

work that you do in the industry.

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But I want to get to some of the cool

stuff that you're up to with, with the

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product that you've got and some of the

thinking that you do, which I think is

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vital, but I'm going to do the thing that

everyone else does at the end.

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I'm going to say, Sam, tell us what you

do.

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And importantly, give us your bloody

website, mate.

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Okay, what I do, I co-host Pod News Weekly

with James Cridland.

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We've been doing that for about three

years.

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And so that's great fun.

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It allows me to interview cool people and

talk with James about what's going on in

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the industry on a weekly basis.

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And it's so, so hectic every week.

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Beginning of the week, I think, Oh God,

what we're going to talk about this week.

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And by the end of the week, it's like,

Jesus, cut that we haven't got enough

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time.

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And invariably, the Pod News Weekly

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We tried to make it a half hour podcast at

the beginning.

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It's invariably 90 minutes on average.

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It's ridiculously long.

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So apologies to everyone about that.

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And then on the side, just to keep myself

busy, I've got a new podcasting platform

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called podvans.fm.

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I love it.

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I want to dig into that in just a second.

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And before we do that, though, I do, I

want to set the scene.

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I think that pod news weekly 30 minute

aspiration is actually a really good place

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to start because that has been the

situation in podcasting.

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I mean, I want to say at least for the

last five or six years, it was felt a

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little different before that.

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It was there was a lot going on, but it

didn't.

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It wasn't I don't want to say mainstream,

but it wasn't as close to mainstream as it

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is now, which then incurred the fact that,

you know,

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wasn't as much money coming through it

because of that there was much less

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interest and then there was this startup

boom there was this money boom there was

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this boom of acquisitions and everything

just seemed to go crazy 2017 2018 ish and

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things started to change so as someone

that's really at the forefront of the news

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and the response to the news every single

week it's easy for me to sit here and say

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things have changed things are slowing

down and for other people to comment and

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say things are slowing down but like is it

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Is that true?

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It doesn't feel like what you're saying

matches with some of the narrative that we

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see online.

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It seems as busy as ever.

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I think what we're seeing is that people

are still actively involved in podcasting.

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Yeah, there is a slowdown.

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I mean, we all know that COVID resulted in

people sat at home bit bored, got a mic

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out, started a podcast anchor gave it away

for free.

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We got a influx of podcasts that you know,

let's be honest, some were not very good

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and some were okay.

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But but it wasn't

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professionalizing it.

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Now what we've seen post COVID, of course,

is a lot of that's gone away, people have

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gone back to work.

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And that's fine.

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We've seen also companies now the stock

markets are beginning to say to companies

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like a cast and others look, oh, you,

you've got some money.

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Now we want to see some profit.

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Yeah, great that you are still revenue

generating.

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But Spotify, a cast, podimo, all these

others, let's see the money.

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And so there's been some downsizing of

people and cuts.

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I think the exclusives that were out

there, it was a good idea to start off

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with.

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Let's get, you know, big high profile

names, see if we can generate some numbers

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around it in terms of people and that will

lead to more revenue and profitability.

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Hopefully didn't quite work.

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But I think again, looking at global,

there have been some amazing alternatives

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where there's actually been a very clever

strategy.

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So the news agents been brilliant.

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I mean, the numbers you guys are hitting

are knocking it out of the park, but also,

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you know, look at.

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The rest is, you know, Goldhanger

Productions podcast.

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They've got, the rest is politics, the

rest is football, and they're doing really

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well with all of their titles.

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And I think crowd networks, there's a lot

of good solid companies who are producing

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good solid podcasts that are generating

real income and real revenue.

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Now, what does that mean going down the

long tail?

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Yeah, it's still hard work.

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I mean, you know, most people are, you

know, if they're getting above 1000

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listeners, they're still in the top

quartile, right.

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So podcasting is not quite yet, you know,

the 10s of 1000s for everybody.

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But it is, I think an industry that's

gone, I liken it to remember web one.io

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when everyone had crazy valuations, and

there was a pop and everyone went, Oh,

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well, that's the internet over and done

with in law, let's all go home.

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And then suddenly web two came and it

stabilized and real business models

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occurred and real revenue occurred.

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And we are where we are today.

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And I think that's exactly what podcasting

is.

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It's, it's seen its early days.

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It's seen its massive pop rise with crazy

money coming into the industry.

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And now there's been a downturn and then

slowly, I think 23, 24, the end of 23,

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early 24, we're beginning to see proper

businesses and proper podcasting models.

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different revenue models, but proper

models.

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And so, yeah, I think we're a good

industry.

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It's okay.

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Yeah, I hear that.

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And I love the comparison to web one and

web 2.0.

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And we're going to talk about web 3.0.

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And I'm always amazed how it's taking so

many hosting companies in podcasting to

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get rid of their web 2.0 interfaces.

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And some of them still got them.

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You know, we all like stuff that looks

nostalgic, but time for an upgrade,

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people.

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Let's just move ahead with that one.

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And I think that's representative of where

the industry was, though.

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There was no real need to shift.

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And you know, all sort of flippancy aside

with that one, it was a genuine, that was

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a genuine issue.

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There was no honest reason to shift

because, you know, you think about the

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creator economy and you think about the

way that that's always worked and that's

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always generated revenue.

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And suddenly you get something.

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And I don't want to be the guy that

invokes cereal, but I've got to do it.

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You know, you get something like cereal

that puts podcasting on the map for the

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consumerism in a much bigger way.

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And.

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you know, the boom can be directly

attributed to that kind of feeling where

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everyone started to look at podcasting as

a media, as an industry.

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And I completely agree with it now that

we've come out of the end of what appears

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to be that talent boom, which, you know, a

lot of people say that was a silly move,

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you know, let's why, why acquire Joe

Rogan's the best example, if you're not

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going to be profitable.

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I do think there was a lot of strategy in

that around just acquiring users.

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And I don't think there was necessarily a

need for profit.

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I think it was a loss leader in many ways.

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Um, and it's.

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I think to a lot of people in the

industry, it hurt their feelings a little

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bit that podcasting was like the loss

leader for a platform.

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And again, I understand that because we're

close to the industry.

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But what interests me about the way that

you think and the way that you do things,

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and I think we think pretty similarly on a

lot of these issues, is that podcasting is

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sort of bundled in now.

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Everything that is on-demand audio is sort

of called podcasting now.

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And it's not, you know, if I go and watch

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a Marvel movie, whether that's on Disney

or whether that's in a movie theater,

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that's not bundled together with a home

video or something necessarily on YouTube.

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And I feel like podcasting has got that

yet to come where, you know, crowd,

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global, wondering, whoever's producing top

tier multifaceted IP that happens to be

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delivered via a podcast to start with,

eventually starts to sort of not become

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podcasts because

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we feel that the creator economy is where

podcast is.

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And we saw that last week or it was last

week, wasn't it?

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With the new Batman original from Spotify

that just doesn't have the word.

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It's an audio original, audio drama,

whatever the wording was, it just not got

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the word podcast.

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So do you think there's a challenge there?

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And well, I want to bring this back to the

independence in a bit because I think this

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is where pod fans work so well.

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But do you think that is, is that pie in

the sky thinking or is there something in

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that logic around why are we bundling

everything now under podcast?

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Well, it's become the Hoover of the words,

right?

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So when you say I'm going to go and Hoover

the lounge, you're not talking about

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getting the brand Hoover.

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It could be Dyson, right?

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It's the generic word.

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Google, we don't say search, we say we're

just gonna Google it, right?

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I mean, so I think podcasting has taken

that generic mantle of anything that's

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audio video that I can consume digitally

online.

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And the

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pragmatist, and I'll put myself in that

camp, you know, would say, well, it's not

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really because it hasn't got RSS.

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But look, 99% of people who are what we

call the normies are not bothered whether

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it has RSS attached to it, right?

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They open up Spotify, they open up

YouTube, they consume it.

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And to them, it's a podcast.

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So therefore it is.

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And we just have to get over ourselves.

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I think where we will evolve possibly is

new words will come out.

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maybe as you said, we talk about films,

then we talk about DVDs, and we talk about

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on demand, and we talk about streaming in

the video homeworld, you know, Netflix.

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But equally, I just said, I'm going to

watch a film on Netflix.

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And it doesn't really have to have that

connotation of a cinema attached.

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So I think language is loose and flexible.

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And I don't think we should get too hung

up on it.

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But I think as podcasters go, yeah, I

mean, I think

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think it's I'm I was against YouTube was

against audible in many ways, you know,

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calling them podcasts.

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I've sort of flipped I've gone like, you

know what, let it be because if we get a

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secondary glow from the word podcast have

been picked up by some 18 year old or 25

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year old who's just getting into it.

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And then they go, Oh, what other podcasts

can I use or listen to or watch?

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I'm happy.

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They will they will eventually

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get their education curve to where we want

them to be, but they have to start

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somewhere.

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Yeah, I felt that way about Anker back in

the day.

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You know, you get a lot of the incumbents

having a real good cry about Anker.

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You know, well, Anker's coming along and

it's free.

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And if you're free, you know, if it's

free, then you're the product, which is

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ironic, given, you know, that many of the

hosting platforms have freemium, which is

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wild.

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And I'd sort of treated that.

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That's how I treated Anker as a, in my

mind was it's just a freemium product that

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doesn't have a premium tier and guess who

was the premium tier?

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You know, here we are at Captivate.

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My logic was always the same that if

someone, I would rather someone start a

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podcast using anchor and it was free and

then realized, oh, do you know what?

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Okay, I enjoy this.

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Now it's time for something different and

Captivate was an option for them.

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Not even saying that we were the only one.

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I would just rather we were in that mix

rather than them just say, oh no, I've got

237

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to pay money for this thing that I might

not enjoy doing.

238

00:12:14,486 --> 00:12:16,327

And yeah, it's a...

239

00:12:16,764 --> 00:12:18,326

I feel exactly the same way about that.

240

00:12:18,326 --> 00:12:19,627

So I'm with you on that.

241

00:12:19,627 --> 00:12:24,852

I think that the evolution and the halo

that we all feel with regards to the word

242

00:12:24,852 --> 00:12:26,813

podcasting, taking on various different

meanings.

243

00:12:26,813 --> 00:12:28,135

I'm all right with that.

244

00:12:28,135 --> 00:12:29,136

I think that's OK.

245

00:12:29,136 --> 00:12:34,861

And there's merit to there's merit to open

in that market, because then to bring it

246

00:12:34,861 --> 00:12:37,903

back to the revenue stuff, which I really

want to dig into, you can.

247

00:12:38,316 --> 00:12:42,958

You can't bring more money in if you are

not making more people aware of what

248

00:12:42,958 --> 00:12:43,618

podcasting is.

249

00:12:43,618 --> 00:12:47,039

And if this is the way that it really goes

mainstream, then we can't.

250

00:12:47,060 --> 00:12:49,060

I don't think we can be that sad about it.

251

00:12:49,521 --> 00:12:51,502

So let's, let's switch up to the creators

then.

252

00:12:51,502 --> 00:12:52,622

So let's talk about pod fans.

253

00:12:52,622 --> 00:12:59,005

You know, even, even now, a lot of people

still think that monetizing a podcast as

254

00:12:59,005 --> 00:13:00,146

an indie with.

255

00:13:00,586 --> 00:13:03,547

You know, a hundred downloads, a hundred

listeners.

256

00:13:04,512 --> 00:13:05,393

is super tough.

257

00:13:05,393 --> 00:13:08,835

You know, they think it's difficult to get

sponsorships regardless of whether they go

258

00:13:08,835 --> 00:13:11,577

direct and they've got a super niche

audience or not.

259

00:13:11,618 --> 00:13:14,019

And many people are put off by that.

260

00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,721

There are other ways.

261

00:13:15,721 --> 00:13:16,542

All right.

262

00:13:16,542 --> 00:13:17,302

So we know about that.

263

00:13:17,302 --> 00:13:19,604

You've been a big pioneer of value for

value.

264

00:13:20,505 --> 00:13:24,708

And pod fans is there, this new product

that you're launching this week into the

265

00:13:24,708 --> 00:13:28,271

public domain properly is right at the

bleeding edge of that.

266

00:13:28,271 --> 00:13:31,814

So can you spend a second or two just

educating the audience on, okay, what is

267

00:13:31,814 --> 00:13:33,695

this whole value for value thing?

268

00:13:34,068 --> 00:13:35,051

What is pod fans?

269

00:13:35,051 --> 00:13:36,014

How does it work?

270

00:13:36,014 --> 00:13:38,339

And actually, why should we be interested

in this?

271

00:13:38,390 --> 00:13:47,472

Yeah, before I do, sorry, before I do, let

me take a quick step back because it looks

272

00:13:47,472 --> 00:13:49,192

blame why value for value is important.

273

00:13:49,192 --> 00:13:55,154

So when I was at Netscape, I was the

product manager, we created the browser

274

00:13:55,154 --> 00:13:58,295

HTTP was the way that people learned about

the language.

275

00:13:58,295 --> 00:14:01,736

And I remember going out and saying to

people, oh, by the way, Mark, it's called

276

00:14:01,736 --> 00:14:02,716

a browser.

277

00:14:02,716 --> 00:14:08,137

It's called a URL has starts with HTTP and

people were going never catch on.

278

00:14:08,170 --> 00:14:10,631

don't understand what you're talking

about, first of all, and secondly, you'll

279

00:14:10,631 --> 00:14:11,491

never catch on.

280

00:14:11,491 --> 00:14:13,452

It did, as we all know.

281

00:14:13,633 --> 00:14:18,415

So new vocabulary is always hard to get

into the lexicon of people's minds.

282

00:14:18,415 --> 00:14:23,298

The second part of that was Mark

Andreessen, my boss never created a micro

283

00:14:23,298 --> 00:14:24,579

payment system.

284

00:14:24,679 --> 00:14:29,121

So in the absence of it, we got hearts,

likes, thumbs up as sentiment analysis.

285

00:14:29,121 --> 00:14:33,844

So people wanting to tell the creator that

they like what they've done, that was all

286

00:14:33,844 --> 00:14:34,605

they could give them.

287

00:14:34,605 --> 00:14:36,545

There was no form of payment.

288

00:14:36,646 --> 00:14:38,607

Then the creators went, well, I need

money.

289

00:14:38,607 --> 00:14:40,548

I can't keep doing this for free.

290

00:14:40,609 --> 00:14:44,132

So that they ended up creating advertising

around the content.

291

00:14:44,132 --> 00:14:45,873

And that's where we got to today.

292

00:14:46,313 --> 00:14:49,796

Now fast forward, and we have something

called Bitcoin.

293

00:14:49,796 --> 00:14:52,919

Now, most people rolled their eyes the

minute you say Bitcoin.

294

00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:57,503

And if I say it's a digital wallet, and

it's called a micro payment, and they call

295

00:14:57,503 --> 00:14:58,663

Satoshi's.

296

00:14:58,924 --> 00:15:03,427

Again, these are all new words, people

look at you going that'll never catch on.

297

00:15:03,507 --> 00:15:04,768

It's all Swahili.

298

00:15:04,768 --> 00:15:06,314

I don't know what you're talking about,

Sam.

299

00:15:06,314 --> 00:15:10,717

Well, as I said, people didn't understand

what HTTP was either.

300

00:15:11,058 --> 00:15:14,722

So there are about 50 million people using

digital wallets today.

301

00:15:14,722 --> 00:15:18,485

So it's not, you know, small chump change,

there are a good number of people out

302

00:15:18,485 --> 00:15:18,746

there.

303

00:15:18,746 --> 00:15:20,227

And it's slowly catching on.

304

00:15:20,227 --> 00:15:24,251

We're seeing the numbers, you know,

through various wallets increasing.

305

00:15:24,251 --> 00:15:25,653

So what is a micro payment?

306

00:15:25,653 --> 00:15:27,113

What is value for value?

307

00:15:27,338 --> 00:15:31,940

So a micro payment is 100 millionth of the

Bitcoin, it has to be that small.

308

00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:35,762

And why do you need it at all when you've

got PayPal and Stripe and Visa and

309

00:15:35,762 --> 00:15:37,663

MasterCard and Apple Pay?

310

00:15:37,723 --> 00:15:41,526

Well, because all of those take payment

gateway fees.

311

00:15:41,526 --> 00:15:45,048

And because they take those fees, if I

just wanted to give you Mark 50 P or a

312

00:15:45,048 --> 00:15:48,910

pound for this show, I couldn't do it

because actually most of that money would

313

00:15:48,910 --> 00:15:53,232

go to the payment gateway provider, even

if they accepted that payment, because

314

00:15:53,232 --> 00:15:55,093

most won't even accept those small

payments.

315

00:15:55,093 --> 00:15:55,713

316

00:15:56,034 --> 00:16:00,515

This micro payment model came about and

that's the first part of it.

317

00:16:00,515 --> 00:16:03,956

Now value for value is just a simple new

economic model.

318

00:16:03,956 --> 00:16:07,997

It doesn't have to include micro payments

and Bitcoin.

319

00:16:08,317 --> 00:16:14,339

Value for value is simply you mark set a

value for the content you're creating and

320

00:16:14,339 --> 00:16:18,620

means the listener can agree with the

value you set or disagree and if I agree,

321

00:16:18,620 --> 00:16:22,181

I just pay it and if I disagree, I can

make it higher.

322

00:16:22,181 --> 00:16:23,842

I could say Mark you're stupid.

323

00:16:23,842 --> 00:16:25,983

boy, this is the best show ever.

324

00:16:25,983 --> 00:16:29,525

I'm doubling or tripling the amount I want

to pay you or I'm sorry, Mark, I'm a

325

00:16:29,525 --> 00:16:29,965

newbie.

326

00:16:29,965 --> 00:16:31,486

I haven't got quite into your show.

327

00:16:31,486 --> 00:16:32,526

So I don't want to pay you.

328

00:16:32,526 --> 00:16:34,667

I'm going to pay you nothing now.

329

00:16:34,667 --> 00:16:35,648

I'm going to listen for free.

330

00:16:35,648 --> 00:16:39,850

But when I become a fan, I will trip over

into paying you.

331

00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:41,771

So value for value is a very simple model.

332

00:16:41,771 --> 00:16:43,292

We have it in real world.

333

00:16:43,292 --> 00:16:47,074

You know, if somebody walks into a shop,

they see a sale ticket price, that's the

334

00:16:47,074 --> 00:16:51,396

offer price, they can legally go to the

counter and offer a different price, but

335

00:16:51,396 --> 00:16:53,757

we just too British, and we don't do it.

336

00:16:54,174 --> 00:16:55,775

But bartering is that way.

337

00:16:55,775 --> 00:16:58,938

It's a value for value is a very simple

real time model.

338

00:16:58,938 --> 00:17:03,741

Now, what's nice about it with podcasting

is because you get a digital wallet and

339

00:17:03,741 --> 00:17:08,405

you get these micro payments in them,

think of them as tokens, then, you know,

340

00:17:08,405 --> 00:17:12,489

it's a direct payment between you, the

listener and the creator.

341

00:17:12,489 --> 00:17:13,830

There is no third party.

342

00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:15,211

There's no middleman.

343

00:17:15,211 --> 00:17:19,174

There is no I'm going to do, you know, go

up here and I'm going to hold your money

344

00:17:19,174 --> 00:17:20,455

until I'm comfortable.

345

00:17:20,455 --> 00:17:21,696

There's no none of that.

346

00:17:21,696 --> 00:17:23,254

So direct payments.

347

00:17:23,254 --> 00:17:27,336

which is the root of what Web Wando 1.0

was.

348

00:17:27,336 --> 00:17:31,578

You know, if you remember Linewire,

Napster, Skype, it was a peer-to-peer

349

00:17:31,578 --> 00:17:32,498

system.

350

00:17:32,599 --> 00:17:34,840

It was Web2 that made it client server

again.

351

00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,081

And yes, you mentioned it earlier, Mark.

352

00:17:37,081 --> 00:17:37,941

So I'll say it again.

353

00:17:37,941 --> 00:17:44,645

Web3 is very much about decentralization

and peer-to-peer monetization.

354

00:17:44,705 --> 00:17:49,267

And so we're going back to the roots of

the web and value for value is a new

355

00:17:49,267 --> 00:17:53,089

economic model that really will benefit

podcasters

356

00:17:54,078 --> 00:17:55,718

And sorry, Mark, this is the last part.

357

00:17:55,718 --> 00:17:59,439

So the average CPM rate for an advert is

about $25.

358

00:18:00,339 --> 00:18:04,641

If you're a creator with less than a

couple of you know, 100 users, you're not

359

00:18:04,641 --> 00:18:07,942

going to get that $25 CPM rate, you're

just not.

360

00:18:08,042 --> 00:18:11,983

So what can you do, you can go and get a

sponsor if you're lucky, maybe you might

361

00:18:11,983 --> 00:18:13,943

get a few of your mates listening.

362

00:18:14,164 --> 00:18:14,564

Great.

363

00:18:14,564 --> 00:18:18,185

And who might want to pay you buy your

coffee or whatever it may be.

364

00:18:18,565 --> 00:18:19,905

But again,

365

00:18:20,354 --> 00:18:25,178

Kevin Kelly's seminal blog post was a

thousand true fans and all he said was

366

00:18:25,178 --> 00:18:27,119

look, stop chasing millions of people.

367

00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:28,640

None of us are Joe Rogan.

368

00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:32,764

So if you've got a couple of hundred

people willing to pay you 50p an episode,

369

00:18:32,764 --> 00:18:36,247

a pound an episode, that covers your

hosting costs and gives you a little bit

370

00:18:36,247 --> 00:18:36,887

of money.

371

00:18:36,887 --> 00:18:41,671

Now scale that up to the likes of a news

agent at global with 10 million users and

372

00:18:41,671 --> 00:18:45,514

you know, then the revenue numbers

outweigh anything you'll get through

373

00:18:45,514 --> 00:18:46,535

advertising.

374

00:18:46,535 --> 00:18:48,137

But we're just in the early days.

375

00:18:48,137 --> 00:18:49,582

And so when this

376

00:18:49,582 --> 00:18:54,671

crosses over and it will, then people will

probably not want to be interrupted by

377

00:18:54,671 --> 00:19:00,481

advertising and they will willingly pay to

listen to content that they're a fan of.

378

00:19:02,220 --> 00:19:03,480

We're starting to see that shift as well.

379

00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:09,143

We're starting to see the trend of people

saying that podcasts have too many adverts

380

00:19:09,143 --> 00:19:15,127

because that is the only way when you have

a large audience and the only extra thing

381

00:19:15,127 --> 00:19:18,128

that you can do outside of listener

support, so through subscriptions,

382

00:19:18,128 --> 00:19:22,611

memberships, or whether it's taking tips

as you alluded to earlier, the only way is

383

00:19:22,611 --> 00:19:26,573

to simply insert one more ad slot, and

then again and again and again and again.

384

00:19:26,573 --> 00:19:31,835

So you do start to see now that people are

starting to just say...

385

00:19:31,904 --> 00:19:33,184

Hmm.

386

00:19:33,184 --> 00:19:34,665

This is becoming a bit of an issue.

387

00:19:34,665 --> 00:19:37,948

And then, you know, conversely, what you

then get is the model that you hear

388

00:19:37,948 --> 00:19:39,749

throughout, you know, everywhere.

389

00:19:39,749 --> 00:19:42,931

Every major production company is doing

this where listen, add free.

390

00:19:42,931 --> 00:19:48,195

If you give us money per month and what I

like about the way this works.

391

00:19:48,195 --> 00:19:52,057

And I'm always a I'm massively into new

tech.

392

00:19:52,077 --> 00:19:56,560

I'm always looking and playing and

tinkering right in the earliest stages of

393

00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:57,521

new tech.

394

00:19:57,681 --> 00:20:00,863

And then as someone that runs a hosting

company, I'm always thinking, actually,

395

00:20:01,644 --> 00:20:03,525

When do you bring this to the masses?

396

00:20:03,525 --> 00:20:08,628

And when are the people that aren't in to

tech going to be ready for this?

397

00:20:08,628 --> 00:20:12,451

And I agree, you know, I think eventually

people will get on board with this

398

00:20:12,451 --> 00:20:13,251

thinking.

399

00:20:14,573 --> 00:20:22,078

Because what I see as a major issue that

this begins to solve is that if I am an

400

00:20:22,078 --> 00:20:28,262

indie creator, let's assume that I've

devoted my entire creator experience to

401

00:20:28,262 --> 00:20:30,723

the Kevin Kelly logic, which I totally

agree with.

402

00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:32,676

I've got my thousand true fans.

403

00:20:33,617 --> 00:20:39,579

How long has it taken me to get those fans

to become true fans enough that they want

404

00:20:39,579 --> 00:20:39,980

to pay me?

405

00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:43,681

Like that entire, if you think about it in

marketing terms, as we always do, people

406

00:20:43,681 --> 00:20:48,143

like you and I, that conversion period,

that sales period is long.

407

00:20:48,563 --> 00:20:52,545

They listen to X amount of podcasts, a

number of episodes, and then they've got

408

00:20:52,545 --> 00:20:55,947

to discover that they like you, and then

they've got to really like you, and then

409

00:20:55,947 --> 00:20:58,167

they've got to be willing to give you

something.

410

00:20:58,416 --> 00:21:01,077

and then give you something regularly

every single month.

411

00:21:01,077 --> 00:21:04,840

Like that sales process is tough.

412

00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,422

Does this go some way to solving that

problem because it is such a.

413

00:21:09,203 --> 00:21:11,704

I don't want to say transient, because I

think that oversimplifies it and

414

00:21:11,704 --> 00:21:14,466

diminishes it a little bit, but it's very

fleeting.

415

00:21:14,466 --> 00:21:16,887

The decision, if that makes any sense.

416

00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:22,354

So, so what we currently have today is

what I call the Chinese buffet mode.

417

00:21:22,354 --> 00:21:27,599

So let's talk about Spotify or, or

subscriptions on Apple, right?

418

00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:31,562

Pay me in advance for something I've not

consumed.

419

00:21:31,923 --> 00:21:36,687

And if I don't drop a new episode, still

keep paying me because I want you to

420

00:21:36,687 --> 00:21:39,689

because that's all that a subscription can

do.

421

00:21:39,849 --> 00:21:43,893

Whereas with a value for value model, it's

a per minute payment basis.

422

00:21:43,893 --> 00:21:44,918

So let's say

423

00:21:44,918 --> 00:21:48,862

you start listening to a podcast and you

only listen to 20 minutes of an hour's

424

00:21:48,862 --> 00:21:51,184

show, that's all you pay 20 minutes worth.

425

00:21:51,805 --> 00:21:57,071

If you're listening to a book, exactly the

same thing model applies for value for

426

00:21:57,071 --> 00:21:57,651

value.

427

00:21:57,651 --> 00:21:59,293

I've listened to two chapters.

428

00:21:59,413 --> 00:22:03,378

I don't know how many books I've gotten

audible that I've got a third of the way

429

00:22:03,378 --> 00:22:05,079

through and never listened to all of it.

430

00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,082

The same works of video.

431

00:22:07,082 --> 00:22:11,787

And most excitingly, this model is also

now working for music as well.

432

00:22:11,787 --> 00:22:14,110

And that's one of the new things that's

come out.

433

00:22:14,110 --> 00:22:19,756

So you might only listen to 10 tracks

instead of listening to 50 tracks, but why

434

00:22:19,756 --> 00:22:24,581

pay for the 500 tracks in advance that you

never listened to?

435

00:22:26,456 --> 00:22:29,926

problem with that is if anyone listens to

Meat Loaf, each song's going to cost them

436

00:22:29,926 --> 00:22:31,087

45 quid.

437

00:22:31,110 --> 00:22:33,405

Oh, if anyone listens to Meatloaf, you

just shoot them.

438

00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,782

I'm going to tell that to the karaoke

group at the local pub because on Friday

439

00:22:40,782 --> 00:22:43,683

night, they get wild up there, mate, for a

little bit of meat.

440

00:22:43,784 --> 00:22:45,345

But no, I like that.

441

00:22:45,345 --> 00:22:46,285

I like that.

442

00:22:46,586 --> 00:22:52,710

I'm interested in the way that technology

thinkers like yourself will take what can

443

00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:57,473

be very abstract concepts like value for

value, like, you know, Bitcoin, like the

444

00:22:57,473 --> 00:23:04,378

Satoshi element of Bitcoin and do what all

the good people really have been doing

445

00:23:04,378 --> 00:23:07,139

since day one, which is putting technology

446

00:23:07,416 --> 00:23:13,237

that doesn't feel scary in between us and

that what appears to be the backend

447

00:23:13,237 --> 00:23:13,677

technology.

448

00:23:13,677 --> 00:23:17,538

So tell us a bit about Podfans because

that's exactly what this does.

449

00:23:18,579 --> 00:23:25,901

It's a well thought out product from good

thinkers to simplify something that can be

450

00:23:25,901 --> 00:23:27,002

complex for the creator.

451

00:23:27,002 --> 00:23:27,922

So tell us all about it.

452

00:23:27,922 --> 00:23:29,542

Tell us what Podfans does.

453

00:23:29,962 --> 00:23:32,783

And really what was the idea behind it?

454

00:23:32,783 --> 00:23:33,843

Where did it come from?

455

00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:34,590

Sure.

456

00:23:34,590 --> 00:23:38,793

So, complexity is fail simplicity is one

of my favorite sayings.

457

00:23:38,793 --> 00:23:41,815

And that's a guy called Edward De Bono

came up with that.

458

00:23:42,777 --> 00:23:46,740

When we started pod fans, there was no

point in trying to replicate Apple and

459

00:23:46,740 --> 00:23:47,561

Spotify, right?

460

00:23:47,561 --> 00:23:49,442

Just a subscription based model.

461

00:23:49,482 --> 00:23:50,603

We would fail.

462

00:23:50,663 --> 00:23:56,808

And when I started pod fans, probably a

year to 18 months ago, Bitcoin was just

463

00:23:56,808 --> 00:24:00,791

forming the Lightning Network, which is

this fast real time payment system was

464

00:24:00,791 --> 00:24:01,372

just forming.

465

00:24:01,372 --> 00:24:02,973

So these were new ideas.

466

00:24:03,554 --> 00:24:08,516

Core part of it is I firmly believe that

people's time and attention has value.

467

00:24:08,957 --> 00:24:14,600

And that value is I will only pay for what

I consume and I'll only pay for the time I

468

00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,242

listen rather than pay it all in advance.

469

00:24:17,302 --> 00:24:22,125

So when we found that this micro payments

existed and it was possible to do a per

470

00:24:22,125 --> 00:24:27,709

minute payment system for digital content

of any sort, that was the embryo for

471

00:24:27,709 --> 00:24:29,289

starting pod fans.

472

00:24:29,662 --> 00:24:33,883

So RSS, as we all know, is an open

ecosystem.

473

00:24:33,883 --> 00:24:38,384

You can consume anyone's RSS unless

they've blocked it or made it exclusive.

474

00:24:38,624 --> 00:24:43,506

And on that basis, we decided that we

wouldn't have advertising as the

475

00:24:43,506 --> 00:24:47,967

monetization model for creators, but we

would have this peer-to-peer direct

476

00:24:47,967 --> 00:24:50,908

payment system from fan to creator.

477

00:24:51,168 --> 00:24:55,389

So to build that, we had to fundamentally

start with creating the database, then we

478

00:24:55,389 --> 00:24:56,589

had to create.

479

00:24:56,606 --> 00:25:01,190

wallets and we have to create the

mechanism for measuring in real time

480

00:25:01,190 --> 00:25:03,452

across everyone who's listening.

481

00:25:04,033 --> 00:25:09,279

So we do we do a per second analysis over

the API.

482

00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:12,963

And we make and then we aggregate that

bundle per minute and then we pay it.

483

00:25:12,963 --> 00:25:13,563

And it works.

484

00:25:13,563 --> 00:25:14,464

It just works, right?

485

00:25:14,464 --> 00:25:17,227

We spent a year building this and it

works.

486

00:25:17,227 --> 00:25:18,608

And that's the cool thing.

487

00:25:18,729 --> 00:25:19,729

So now

488

00:25:20,174 --> 00:25:24,476

when you're a new user to podfans, it's

very simple, you join and in the

489

00:25:24,476 --> 00:25:28,118

onboarding process, you either have an

existing wallet, or you don't.

490

00:25:28,138 --> 00:25:31,960

If you do, we just verify against your

wallet, off you go.

491

00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,142

The learning curve is great because you

already understand what a payment system

492

00:25:35,142 --> 00:25:36,983

is, with micro payment and what a wallet

is.

493

00:25:36,983 --> 00:25:39,284

So now you're just understanding how my

platform works.

494

00:25:39,284 --> 00:25:43,026

And you know, the intricacies of my

platform compared to other platforms.

495

00:25:43,246 --> 00:25:47,068

If you haven't got a wallet, and that's,

you know, again, we have to reach those

496

00:25:47,068 --> 00:25:49,349

people who don't understand this.

497

00:25:49,442 --> 00:25:54,325

then we've got to educate you on the

onboarding as to how do you get a wallet?

498

00:25:54,326 --> 00:25:55,407

And we do that.

499

00:25:55,407 --> 00:26:00,371

And then we put in 10,000 sats into your

wallet as a part of the process and we

500

00:26:00,371 --> 00:26:04,094

reward you and we're trying to teach you

as well we call learn and earn.

501

00:26:04,174 --> 00:26:08,358

So we're trying to say to you look, you've

got your wallet you've joined here's some

502

00:26:08,358 --> 00:26:10,579

tokens here's some sats in your wallet.

503

00:26:10,940 --> 00:26:16,064

Now give us your email address or pick

your first five favorite podcasts or

504

00:26:16,064 --> 00:26:17,426

listen to your first show.

505

00:26:17,426 --> 00:26:23,128

and we will reward you for completing

tasks that add up to 10,000 sats.

506

00:26:23,188 --> 00:26:27,129

So when you get into the system and you

click play, it works.

507

00:26:27,129 --> 00:26:29,811

You don't have to go, Oh God, do I have to

get a credit card out now?

508

00:26:29,811 --> 00:26:30,611

Oh, I don't want to do that.

509

00:26:30,611 --> 00:26:32,051

I don't know these people.

510

00:26:32,432 --> 00:26:37,914

We also, as I said, we reward time and

attention so you can earn by being an

511

00:26:37,914 --> 00:26:38,954

active user.

512

00:26:38,954 --> 00:26:42,095

So let's say it was a fan of your podcast,

Mark.

513

00:26:42,256 --> 00:26:43,596

I could be sharing it.

514

00:26:43,596 --> 00:26:47,102

I could be boosting it, which is a comment

with a payment.

515

00:26:47,102 --> 00:26:50,902

I could be clipping in a piece and putting

that out to my social network.

516

00:26:50,903 --> 00:26:54,343

Each one of those is a verb, boost, clip,

share.

517

00:26:54,404 --> 00:26:57,364

And we've put a gamification engine inside

of pod fans.

518

00:26:57,364 --> 00:26:59,925

So we know there's 30 verbs.

519

00:26:59,925 --> 00:27:03,966

We know what exactly you do when you're in

the platform and we can allocate points to

520

00:27:03,966 --> 00:27:04,206

that.

521

00:27:04,206 --> 00:27:10,268

So yes, you pay if you choose to listen to

a podcast, you don't have to, but you also

522

00:27:10,268 --> 00:27:13,349

can earn by being an active fan of a

podcast.

523

00:27:13,349 --> 00:27:16,429

So we think that two way value for value

model.

524

00:27:16,758 --> 00:27:18,689

is what we've built and that's pod fans.

525

00:27:21,176 --> 00:27:28,379

the element of rewarding the attention of

a listener as well.

526

00:27:28,379 --> 00:27:30,140

I think that's really, really useful.

527

00:27:30,140 --> 00:27:33,901

Even the gamification element of anything

is always so powerful.

528

00:27:33,901 --> 00:27:37,563

And I do think that podcasting is yet to

really capitalize on that.

529

00:27:37,563 --> 00:27:41,244

We see words like engagement banded about

so much, but no one really does anything

530

00:27:41,244 --> 00:27:41,964

with it.

531

00:27:41,985 --> 00:27:44,586

So I really like this idea that you've

embraced that.

532

00:27:44,586 --> 00:27:48,727

And a lot of people are going to start to

say things like, okay, well, actually

533

00:27:49,416 --> 00:27:50,896

I listen to most of my podcasts on the go.

534

00:27:50,896 --> 00:27:54,198

I listen to most of my shows when I'm

doing something else.

535

00:27:54,198 --> 00:27:57,640

And it's usually on a smart device,

usually on a phone or whatever.

536

00:27:57,640 --> 00:27:59,081

So how do you handle that?

537

00:27:59,081 --> 00:28:01,142

Are you available mobile?

538

00:28:01,142 --> 00:28:04,163

Can people listen using mobile and using

pod fans?

539

00:28:04,278 --> 00:28:09,121

Yeah, the good news is we've created

what's called a progressive web app PWA.

540

00:28:09,121 --> 00:28:11,062

And all that means is browser based.

541

00:28:11,062 --> 00:28:14,384

It's not in the iOS store or the Google

Store.

542

00:28:14,384 --> 00:28:18,867

We don't pay Apple a 30% tax for any

transaction, which is why we did it.

543

00:28:18,867 --> 00:28:24,910

And it means it works across iPad, laptop

and mobile in the same way.

544

00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:28,853

And we just size the screen down to based

on the size of screen.

545

00:28:28,853 --> 00:28:30,093

So that's really cool.

546

00:28:30,202 --> 00:28:34,145

The one thing I was going to slightly

change one thing there was a report this

547

00:28:34,145 --> 00:28:36,566

week Mark just bear with me.

548

00:28:36,566 --> 00:28:40,389

Ashley Carmen from Bloomberg put out a

report saying that podcasters now

549

00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:44,392

beginning to fake their numbers in terms

of downloads.

550

00:28:44,713 --> 00:28:46,334

And why are they doing that?

551

00:28:46,334 --> 00:28:48,836

Well, fake until you make it is an

expression that you hear many

552

00:28:48,836 --> 00:28:51,666

entrepreneurs being told to say but

553

00:28:51,666 --> 00:28:54,786

reason they're doing that is because they

want to get that $25 CPM.

554

00:28:54,786 --> 00:28:57,247

Oh, how many how many people download your

book?

555

00:28:57,247 --> 00:28:58,607

Oh, yeah, a couple of 1000 people.

556

00:28:58,607 --> 00:28:59,988

All right, well, we'll sign you up.

557

00:28:59,988 --> 00:29:00,908

There you go.

558

00:29:00,908 --> 00:29:02,409

You can have some advertising.

559

00:29:02,409 --> 00:29:04,509

And then they find out it's a couple of

hundred people.

560

00:29:04,569 --> 00:29:09,270

So that is something that is quite common,

I'm afraid in the in the community.

561

00:29:09,270 --> 00:29:14,292

And also, we all know if you use something

like an Apple podcast, it auto downloads,

562

00:29:14,292 --> 00:29:16,032

that doesn't mean you auto listen.

563

00:29:16,032 --> 00:29:19,773

So you could have a back catalog of

hundreds of podcasts you've never listened

564

00:29:19,773 --> 00:29:20,214

to.

565

00:29:20,214 --> 00:29:24,396

But that gets reported back as a download

and therefore the advertiser thinks, oh, I

566

00:29:24,396 --> 00:29:25,716

should be paying for that.

567

00:29:25,857 --> 00:29:33,541

The last part of that mark is also we

don't know how far along in a podcast the

568

00:29:33,541 --> 00:29:34,502

person's listened to.

569

00:29:34,502 --> 00:29:38,164

So let's say there's three adverts, the

one at the beginning, middle and end.

570

00:29:38,344 --> 00:29:40,946

We all know the one at the end generally

doesn't get listened to.

571

00:29:40,946 --> 00:29:42,967

We know the one in the middle probably

gets skipped.

572

00:29:42,967 --> 00:29:44,828

If it doesn't get skipped, it will get

listened to.

573

00:29:44,828 --> 00:29:47,989

But we can't 100% know for certain.

574

00:29:48,330 --> 00:29:52,533

Now with pod fans, we know for certain,

because we know exactly how many minutes

575

00:29:52,533 --> 00:29:55,114

you've listened to, at what point you

dropped off.

576

00:29:55,114 --> 00:29:59,217

So we've got three metrics that we've

worked with a company in Canada who have a

577

00:29:59,217 --> 00:30:00,898

similar thinking called Bumper.

578

00:30:01,339 --> 00:30:06,062

And it's time listened, percent completed

and value paid.

579

00:30:06,162 --> 00:30:12,587

And you bring those three metrics together

and you can roll that up to a creator so

580

00:30:12,587 --> 00:30:16,706

they know exactly how long each listener

listened, but also in aggregate how...

581

00:30:16,706 --> 00:30:18,686

where people dropped off in your episode.

582

00:30:18,806 --> 00:30:20,987

You also know how much value was paid for

it.

583

00:30:21,227 --> 00:30:24,129

And those three, when you go back to an

advertiser, if you still want to put

584

00:30:24,129 --> 00:30:26,510

advertising into your own podcast, you

can.

585

00:30:26,510 --> 00:30:30,171

And then the advertiser is going to be

confident that yeah, actually, you know

586

00:30:30,171 --> 00:30:31,072

what, Mark?

587

00:30:31,072 --> 00:30:33,813

80% of your listeners listen to that

advert.

588

00:30:33,813 --> 00:30:35,893

Great, I'm going to continue paying it.

589

00:30:35,974 --> 00:30:38,935

So again, we've got this old download

model.

590

00:30:38,935 --> 00:30:43,077

We've got this fake it until you make it

and use a number model.

591

00:30:43,077 --> 00:30:44,957

And again, that's all changing as well.

592

00:30:44,957 --> 00:30:45,597

So...

593

00:30:45,930 --> 00:30:51,378

The way that we're doing micro payments,

it'll be not just good for creators

594

00:30:51,378 --> 00:30:56,106

linking to their fans, but it also be good

for advertisers trying to be 100% certain

595

00:30:56,106 --> 00:30:58,348

that their adverts are even being listened

to.

596

00:30:59,424 --> 00:31:03,725

It's such a challenge that because I think

this is responsible for a lot of the

597

00:31:04,905 --> 00:31:06,646

downside of the boom that we saw.

598

00:31:06,646 --> 00:31:09,987

So where we are now basically in the

industry, you know, the renewals of big

599

00:31:09,987 --> 00:31:13,548

brands looking at partnerships and looking

at even programmatic and so on where

600

00:31:13,548 --> 00:31:18,129

they're doing big ad buys across various

networks or different types of show.

601

00:31:19,409 --> 00:31:23,411

You often find renewals are so much more

challenging than the original sale because

602

00:31:23,411 --> 00:31:24,551

you're absolutely right.

603

00:31:24,551 --> 00:31:26,591

We can report on downloads, but that.

604

00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:30,242

That was only sexy when podcasting was

really, really new and it was the only

605

00:31:30,242 --> 00:31:30,642

metric.

606

00:31:30,642 --> 00:31:35,245

But now those same people are walking into

the meetings and saying, actually, all

607

00:31:35,245 --> 00:31:37,947

right, downloads are fine, but what did we

get?

608

00:31:37,947 --> 00:31:43,711

And you can't you can't constantly just

use brand positioning as the answer to

609

00:31:43,711 --> 00:31:43,891

that.

610

00:31:43,891 --> 00:31:44,892

And we know that's happening.

611

00:31:44,892 --> 00:31:47,034

We see that at the highest levels of

podcasting.

612

00:31:47,034 --> 00:31:50,275

We see that at the highest levels of ad

sales.

613

00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:55,119

And we see it reported very, very often,

which, as you said, leads to what we saw

614

00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:55,952

reported.

615

00:31:55,952 --> 00:31:57,152

today through Ashley.

616

00:31:57,152 --> 00:31:58,572

So yeah, I get it.

617

00:31:58,572 --> 00:31:59,413

I think it's fascinating.

618

00:31:59,413 --> 00:32:04,134

Now I think the thing that I would say is

the indie producer, so the person that's

619

00:32:04,134 --> 00:32:08,675

really, really busy, the person that is,

you know, getting the 50 or the 100

620

00:32:08,675 --> 00:32:13,797

download, you know, good loyal audience,

but actually, they've not got that much

621

00:32:13,797 --> 00:32:14,537

time.

622

00:32:14,877 --> 00:32:16,437

What's this going to do for them?

623

00:32:17,238 --> 00:32:19,298

Is this a challenge from a timing

perspective?

624

00:32:19,298 --> 00:32:22,359

Do they need to put piles of time into

working with something like pod fans?

625

00:32:22,359 --> 00:32:24,759

Or how does this accommodate those?

626

00:32:25,162 --> 00:32:25,722

Really simple.

627

00:32:25,722 --> 00:32:31,224

So we we've ingested probably about

500,000 podcasts and we'll increase that

628

00:32:31,224 --> 00:32:32,725

over the next few months.

629

00:32:33,025 --> 00:32:35,006

Obviously, all 4 million aren't what we

want.

630

00:32:35,006 --> 00:32:36,327

We talked about anchor earlier.

631

00:32:36,327 --> 00:32:40,709

So but we'll get all the best podcasts we

think they're out there.

632

00:32:41,309 --> 00:32:45,631

If yours is one of those podcasts, all you

have to do is then claim it.

633

00:32:45,631 --> 00:32:50,533

And when you claim it, you get access to a

backend dashboard for pod fans.

634

00:32:50,633 --> 00:32:51,342

Now

635

00:32:51,342 --> 00:32:57,383

A pod fan sets a default value for every

podcast out there at 100 sats per minute.

636

00:32:57,383 --> 00:33:00,024

So an hour show is six thousand sats.

637

00:33:00,024 --> 00:33:01,344

What's that in real money?

638

00:33:01,344 --> 00:33:02,484

About 50p.

639

00:33:02,484 --> 00:33:02,745

Right.

640

00:33:02,745 --> 00:33:05,205

So it's not a big problem.

641

00:33:05,705 --> 00:33:11,507

So once you've got a value for every

episode, you as the creator, once you've

642

00:33:11,507 --> 00:33:13,728

claimed your show, can go and change that

value.

643

00:33:13,728 --> 00:33:18,029

You can say, oh, OK, I want my show to be

10 sats per minute or a thousand sats per

644

00:33:18,029 --> 00:33:19,109

minute or zero.

645

00:33:19,109 --> 00:33:20,469

You can pick what you want.

646

00:33:21,738 --> 00:33:25,199

In the value for value model that will

just change at the front end and the

647

00:33:25,199 --> 00:33:28,739

listener will go Oh, that's the new value

that's set by the creator.

648

00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:32,621

But in the value for value model, I as the

listener have that final say I can still

649

00:33:32,621 --> 00:33:34,041

change that value as well.

650

00:33:34,041 --> 00:33:40,183

So as a creator, no, you don't need to do

much you go in and check that the podcast

651

00:33:40,183 --> 00:33:44,384

that you that's yours is there you claim

it and verify it and it has to be verified

652

00:33:44,384 --> 00:33:45,664

and we'll

653

00:33:48,926 --> 00:33:52,668

And then once you've done that, you set

your own values and then you market that

654

00:33:52,668 --> 00:33:57,090

out to your listeners that this is what we

do and your listeners then have choices,

655

00:33:57,090 --> 00:33:59,511

pay it or not pay it right.

656

00:33:59,591 --> 00:34:00,892

But there isn't much more you have to do.

657

00:34:00,892 --> 00:34:06,235

There's no, Oh my God, do I need to know

how to do a tag in the middle at minute

658

00:34:06,235 --> 00:34:10,417

one with a DAI link here and something

else and do I need to rub my head and

659

00:34:10,417 --> 00:34:11,738

scratch my tummy to do this?

660

00:34:11,738 --> 00:34:16,360

No, it's fairly self-explanatory because

you've got to, you get given a wallet when

661

00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:16,881

you joined.

662

00:34:16,881 --> 00:34:18,761

So it, you know,

663

00:34:18,910 --> 00:34:20,912

It's the same for creators as it is for

listeners.

664

00:34:20,912 --> 00:34:24,897

You just need a wallet to be receiving

your sats into.

665

00:34:26,116 --> 00:34:29,438

That's what I like about this concept is

that, well, like we said earlier,

666

00:34:29,558 --> 00:34:32,921

simplifying the complexity of all of these

mechanisms and moving parts that are

667

00:34:32,921 --> 00:34:36,784

required to benefit from blockchain

payments and so on and so forth.

668

00:34:36,784 --> 00:34:42,329

I think that's the real strength behind

the scenes of this is that I can set it

669

00:34:42,329 --> 00:34:42,529

up.

670

00:34:42,529 --> 00:34:46,572

And I know the word wallet, I know that

works, but I don't generally have to worry

671

00:34:46,572 --> 00:34:46,893

about it.

672

00:34:46,893 --> 00:34:47,974

So I commend you on that, my friend.

673

00:34:47,974 --> 00:34:49,575

I think that's fantastic work.

674

00:34:50,235 --> 00:34:51,477

What's the timeline for pod fans then?

675

00:34:51,477 --> 00:34:55,459

So this is, we're here, we're at 28th of

September.

676

00:34:55,672 --> 00:34:57,965

2023, what's the status of pod fans now?

677

00:34:57,965 --> 00:35:00,295

What's the next six months look like to

wrap this up?

678

00:35:01,470 --> 00:35:04,451

So earlier this week, we took off the

wrapper.

679

00:35:04,451 --> 00:35:05,611

It's now a beta product.

680

00:35:05,611 --> 00:35:06,772

It was an alpha.

681

00:35:06,772 --> 00:35:12,474

And so it's mobile, it's desktop, it's in

all those screens in between.

682

00:35:12,994 --> 00:35:14,075

That's great.

683

00:35:14,075 --> 00:35:15,915

And yeah, please go and use it.

684

00:35:15,915 --> 00:35:20,757

We've also built a really, I mean, talking

about paying SATS, Mark, we've built a

685

00:35:20,757 --> 00:35:25,579

feedback model where if you give us a bug

report, we pay you in SATS as a thank you.

686

00:35:25,579 --> 00:35:27,920

So we give you some SATS for reporting

bugs.

687

00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,626

If you give us a brand new feature

suggestion,

688

00:35:30,626 --> 00:35:31,827

give you some slats as well for that.

689

00:35:31,827 --> 00:35:34,249

So again, there's ways of getting earning

it.

690

00:35:34,249 --> 00:35:36,791

But fundamentally, yeah, you can go in

there.

691

00:35:36,791 --> 00:35:37,391

You can use it.

692

00:35:37,391 --> 00:35:42,095

Now what we are doing is increasing the

servers.

693

00:35:42,135 --> 00:35:43,056

We're building this.

694

00:35:43,056 --> 00:35:44,717

We talked about it very tangently.

695

00:35:44,717 --> 00:35:47,580

We're building a new music element to it

as well.

696

00:35:47,580 --> 00:35:51,984

So lots of independent music artists are

now being said, I don't really like

697

00:35:51,984 --> 00:35:53,605

putting my music on Apple and Spotify.

698

00:35:53,605 --> 00:35:58,529

I don't really make any money, but they're

beginning to create RSS feeds for their

699

00:35:58,529 --> 00:35:59,214

music.

700

00:35:59,214 --> 00:36:04,138

and uploading those to the index and then

we can download those and using a payment

701

00:36:04,138 --> 00:36:09,943

model value for value, they can get paid

directly by their fans and Ashley Ainsley

702

00:36:09,943 --> 00:36:18,331

Costello, sorry, an artist on who's done

this said on Twitter or X that she made 20

703

00:36:18,331 --> 00:36:23,215

or dollars when she did it across 60

streaming platforms and she made $400 in

704

00:36:23,215 --> 00:36:26,357

one day doing the same thing using SATs.

705

00:36:27,102 --> 00:36:31,546

artists are beginning to understand and

artists more than podcasters have a deeper

706

00:36:31,546 --> 00:36:32,647

connection to their fans.

707

00:36:32,647 --> 00:36:38,632

I mean, we all love to think our fans love

us, but realistically they are a little

708

00:36:38,632 --> 00:36:39,193

bit flirty.

709

00:36:39,193 --> 00:36:40,474

If we went away, they'd go away.

710

00:36:40,474 --> 00:36:41,054

Right.

711

00:36:41,054 --> 00:36:42,496

They wouldn't chase us down and find us.

712

00:36:42,496 --> 00:36:48,141

But if a music artist goes, you're like,

Oh my God, I love you.

713

00:36:48,141 --> 00:36:48,862

Where have you gone?

714

00:36:48,862 --> 00:36:49,562

Right.

715

00:36:49,602 --> 00:36:52,645

And, and their commitment to music is much

higher.

716

00:36:52,645 --> 00:36:53,245

717

00:36:53,346 --> 00:36:56,516

The value for value model works really,

really well with music.

718

00:36:56,516 --> 00:37:00,105

So we're adding a music element very

shortly to it as well.

719

00:37:01,272 --> 00:37:04,614

fascinating work as someone that builds

software, my friend, I know how difficult

720

00:37:04,614 --> 00:37:05,675

this is to pull off.

721

00:37:05,675 --> 00:37:09,738

And yeah, come on, commend you on the

work, but also just the way that you lead

722

00:37:09,738 --> 00:37:10,679

in the thinking as well.

723

00:37:10,679 --> 00:37:13,662

So yeah, absolutely commendable workers

always.

724

00:37:13,662 --> 00:37:18,005

And I think everyone should just give that

give this a whirl, even if I'm always a

725

00:37:18,005 --> 00:37:20,867

fan of trying things anyway, I think even

if you don't stick with it, I'm not saying

726

00:37:20,867 --> 00:37:24,731

that would be the case with pod fans, but

please, anyone listening, just go over

727

00:37:24,731 --> 00:37:28,373

there and try this and you can find that

at podfans.fm.

728

00:37:28,774 --> 00:37:31,020

So I heartily recommend that you do that.

729

00:37:31,020 --> 00:37:32,181

Well, Sam, it's always a pleasure.

730

00:37:32,181 --> 00:37:35,546

I know you've held an event this week with

James, which I'm sure was absolutely

731

00:37:35,546 --> 00:37:36,526

fantastic.

732

00:37:37,048 --> 00:37:38,250

I was out of the country for it.

733

00:37:38,250 --> 00:37:40,733

So I'm sorry I couldn't be there, but if

it's anything like the Manchester one, I

734

00:37:40,733 --> 00:37:42,555

know it would have been a roaring success.

735

00:37:42,555 --> 00:37:45,919

And yeah, look forward to seeing you in

person soon, my friend.

736

00:37:46,042 --> 00:37:47,007

Indeed, indeed.

737

00:37:47,007 --> 00:37:48,756

And we're going to a Liverpool game

together.

738

00:37:48,756 --> 00:37:50,161

So that'll be even more fun.

739

00:37:51,252 --> 00:37:52,192

That sounds good.

740

00:37:52,192 --> 00:37:54,053

Speaking of that, I appreciate that.

741

00:37:54,053 --> 00:37:54,833

I cannot wait for that.

742

00:37:54,833 --> 00:37:55,753

I'm looking forward to that.

743

00:37:55,753 --> 00:38:00,155

If you would like to send Sam and I some

beer money for that, you can do that at

744

00:38:00,155 --> 00:38:01,536

mark.live slash support.

745

00:38:01,536 --> 00:38:03,277

It's like we planned that, Sam.

746

00:38:03,277 --> 00:38:06,678

It's like this smooth segue into sending

747

00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:09,990

Thanks for watching!

748

00:38:20,643 --> 00:38:22,602

Any industry events outside of your own?

749

00:38:22,762 --> 00:38:25,023

No, no, I mean, I think we're coming to

the end of those.

750

00:38:25,023 --> 00:38:28,665

So we did our own one and I also went to

the British Podcast Awards this week and

751

00:38:28,665 --> 00:38:30,026

gave out an award.

752

00:38:30,266 --> 00:38:34,108

The next big event, Mark, for me, and

maybe you might be there, is the one in

753

00:38:34,108 --> 00:38:35,809

the LA podcast movement.

754

00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:37,801

I will be there.

755

00:38:37,801 --> 00:38:42,004

It'll be the first time back on the West

Coast since COVID because of the family

756

00:38:42,004 --> 00:38:42,465

and travel.

757

00:38:42,465 --> 00:38:43,706

So I'm excited for that.

758

00:38:43,706 --> 00:38:44,947

We actually booked the hotel.

759

00:38:44,947 --> 00:38:45,908

We booked the flights.

760

00:38:45,908 --> 00:38:47,089

We are there.

761

00:38:47,089 --> 00:38:48,389

So I'm excited for that.

762

00:38:48,450 --> 00:38:53,353

And for you listening out there, if you

are interested, go to podfans.fm.

763

00:38:54,175 --> 00:38:58,478

And if you've got any questions, just get

in touch with us on the usual channels.

764

00:38:58,478 --> 00:39:02,682

The Twitter's all, I'm not gonna call it

X, the Twitter's the best way to do that.

765

00:39:02,682 --> 00:39:05,303

And I'm at MrAsquith and Sam.

766

00:39:05,420 --> 00:39:06,967

You're over on Twitter as well, aren't

you?

767

00:39:07,309 --> 00:39:10,115

at Sam Sethi or at JoinPodFans.

768

00:39:10,115 --> 00:39:13,543

Just come and ping me and I'm more than

happy to give you an answer to whatever

769

00:39:13,543 --> 00:39:14,524

question you have.

770

00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:17,183

Amazing stuff and for you listening, enjoy

yourself.

771

00:39:17,183 --> 00:39:17,944

Thank you for tuning in.

772

00:39:17,944 --> 00:39:19,747

It's always a pleasure until the next

time.

773

00:39:19,747 --> 00:39:20,908

Keep on doing what you do.

774

00:39:20,908 --> 00:39:24,933

Keep sharing your voice, your thoughts

with the world and look after yourself.

775

00:39:25,074 --> 00:39:26,235

Bye bye for now.