Hello again. My name is Anne-Marie Zanzal, and welcome to Coming Out and Beyond |LGBTQIA Stories. I am an ordained minister, bereavement counselor, conversationalist, spiritual wanderer, later in life, lesbian changemaker, blogger, author, mom of four beautiful children, wife to my lovely wife, Tonda McKay, a northerner living in the south and trying to figure it out. All out. I share the stories of people who are coming out later in life to the LGBTQIA community and other queer stories. These stories are compelling, heartbreaking, joyful, and inspirational. I started this podcast because we need to normalize exploration of sexuality and gender at all ages. Plus, visibility is vital to the queer community. It's never too late to be who we are created to be. My guest proved that I'm somebody that always sort of knew I was gay, and I just probably didn't have the language for it. The first time I realized that I was attracted to a woman was, like, in a bar when I was, like, 19 years old and, you know, just sort of like, just dismissed it because I thought I would. You know, I've been drinking and I'm like, oh, yeah, everybody's attracted to women when they're drinking. That's the trope. All straight girls are three drinks away from a lesbian encounter. That's true.

That's true. But anyway. But anyway, I just sort of dismissed it. And then about three years later, I was engaged to my ex husband, and I went out to lunch with a friend of mine from high school, and we just had this really. She was in graduate school, and we just had a really intense discussion about the queer community, and she was very enmeshed in it, her and her future husband. She's not gay. But I remember walking away from that lunch thinking to myself, maybe I'm gay. You know, and it was like, 1987, 88. And I remember thinking, maybe I'm gay. And I was like, well, how do you, like, I don't know anybody who's gay. I mean, I knew a couple people, but, you know, they were all older men. And I'm like, how do you do this? And there was a gay bar on the other in a couple towns over, and I was like, well, maybe I'll go there. And I asked some friends to go, and they didn't want to, and I just sort of forgot about it for a little while. I ended up getting married to my now ex husband, and we had kids. And I'm going to be really honest with you, during my 30s, when I was raising my children, I didn't think about my sexuality at all. It was really busy. I had three kids in five years, and then I had another one seven years later. So I was just really busy being a, you know, typical working, stay at home, part time, working mom and doing those things. And then in 2006, a bunch of things happened. And I read an article in Oprah Winfrey magazine. And in the magazine, it talked about the fluidity of women's sexuality. And all of a sudden, for the first time, I had a language to like, oh, you mean you can be with a woman after you've married a man? You don't have to stay on the straight path forever. You know, you can go on the curvy one or the gay one. And I would. It just blew my mind. And I remember saying, my daughter laughs now because she has no memory of this conversation, but I remember saying to my oldest daughter at the time, who was 16 then, she's now 30, she's. I said, you know, if dad and I never. If dad and I don't work out or, you know, don't be surprised if I end up with a woman. And she said, okay, mom. And that really, in 2006 was really. It took me about 10 years to come out. It was a really long time. And from like the initial realization, yeah, wait a minute, I don't have to stay married for the rest of my life. I can be with a woman. So I did a lot of talking and thinking about it in the next 10 years, I had this moment. I went to. I was pursuing my master's degree at Yale Divinity School. And I remember I was such a good little ally. And so I'm like, going to the coming out day ceremony at the Divinity school, which is October 11th. And I remember in the middle of the service, I started crying hysterically because, like, I realized that, oh, shit, I really am gay. And how am I going to do this? Like, I'm married, I've got four kids, I'm in the middle of becoming an ordained minister. And at that time, I was in a very conservative denomination, which they never would have ordained somebody who was gay. And I was like, what the, you know, what the fuck am I gonna do? And then I ended up, for the next five years, told my ex husband in 2010, told a bunch of therapists that I was gay. They all dismissed it, even a lesbian therapist. And I was looking for the experts to tell me whether I was gay or not. And the only person who can tell me who can name my sexuality is me. And I didn't realize that at the time. And so in 2016, I became or I was ordained in the United Church of Christ, a very progressive Christian denomination here in the United States. And three weeks after ordination, I mean, excuse me, the day after ordination, I woke up and I said, this is really actually sort of prophetic. I said to my sister, who I was driving back to the airport, you know, this ministry work is really, really hard. I was working as a hospice chaplain at the time, and I said, I really need a soft place to land. And so that was the beginning of my coming out. Soon after. There's longer parts to this story if you ever want to read my book, Authentic Peace. But at that point, I realized I came out again to my therapist and that began the process. What I did differently this time than I did the other times was that I Googled late in life lesbian and I found a blog and I found a Facebook group which provided me with all kinds of support. And eventually I met this person. This person. Your wife?

My wife, this person.

And that really changed a lot of things. So that's how, you know, we met in a Facebook group for women coming out later in life. Tonda, however, has a different story. And how did you end up in that group?

Well, Andrea, who started the group, I was going through a breakup of my longest relationship ever. It wasn't my idea, so I was having a really hard time with it. And so she said, anybody, even if you're not a late in life lesbian, you know, you can join the group. And I'm like, well, I'll definitely meet new people in there because, you know, having been out forever, you know, there's a lot of. I know a lot of people in the community and know a lot of people that I don't want to date or I've dated or they were my ex 20 years ago.

Well, and also too, with when Andrea did the call for the group. It's now defunct, but when she did the call for the group, she really wanted people who'd been out for a while and so kind of had a twofold purpose.

Well, I mean, I was in there for a long time, and then I was like, you know, wow, there's some really amazing women in this group, you know, But I didn't. I didn't do anything. I was helping Andrea with the group, trying to find housing or whatever, because they were. We were doing.

They were doing a conference, but you have to give the details because people won't understand why they're having housing now. And it's Gonna have to cut this out.

It's perfect.

Anyway, as I was saying. Anyway.

This is.

People don't care about this part. So anyway, I said, well, if we get a one big house, some women are going to have to stay in a room with two twin beds. Which as a long term lesbian, that wouldn't have been a. I mean that's not a big deal, you know, But I now know that that can be really scary for women who are, you know, coming out later in life or whatever. And Ann Marie said, well, on the Facebook page, said just put me anywhere. And I was like, wow, that's a cool name. And so I looked at her name.

So it begins.

I look at her picture and I was like, wow. I don't know, there was just something about her picture that just like, wow, I want to know her. And I must confess it wasn't as a friend. I mean I would have taken that, but I was like, wow, you did.

Take it for a while.

You know, she's like, got a master's degree from Yale and she's beautiful. And so as a joke I sent a. Before I ever talked to Ann Marie, I sent a message to Andrea and said, Anne Marie says I can put her anywhere. Can I put her in my bed? Y'all are gonna have to work that out. We did.

It was like haha, you know, five months later.

And I, I literally messaged Anne Marie thinking I was talking about this subject, the conference, until months after we had been dating. And she was like, well, we can be just friends if you want to be just friends. And I was like, it was just so odd to me. It's like, well that's pretty pretentious, you know, of course I can be just friends. And later she goes, well, you told me I was beautiful three times. And. And I was like, oh.

I was like, she had no game.

You're so, you're so beautiful. You've probably got a girlfriend and you know, somebody as beautiful as you. I had no game.

No game. She had been out. It's been a long time, 15 years.

Since.

She had no game.

But it worked. I like it. It worked out, right?

Yeah. Anyway, that has nothing to do with out story. Do you want that?

Yeah, we'd. I'd love to hear that. I mean, I mean I also would love to hear more about like the relationship too, but I think we'll get a little bit more into that in just a little bit.

Why don't we do this? Why don't you do your coming out story in a Separate podcast. Because I would like to do that and then we can. Let's talk about us.

Okay.

Okay. Okay.

Yeah. So. So there you were. So you guys, did you guys meet the first time at that conference?

No, we were, we were already dating, I think. But what ended up happening is that so, so it was like. So we were friends. I actually even like unfriended her at one point just because, you know, I was like, ah, she's got. Because she was, had been dating. She was just really grieving the relationship.

Hadn't been dating anyone.

No, she hadn't. But she had been with Meg, her former partner for a very long time. And you know, it really was really in my comfort zone. Like it couldn't have been. I look back on it, it couldn't have been. I was so nervous, Anna. I was so nervous. I didn't know what the hell I was doing. And I had never talked to a woman like with potential romantic interest before. And so.

Hey baby, what's your size?

It's a whole new, It's a whole new world. Like how do I even say what I actually feel? But then not, you know, like the boundaries are really blurry. Like you don't know. But it's.

And for me, I had been in, you know, this basically all lesbian world we're staged for so long that, that I was just waiting in, not knowing what was going. Luckily now, luckily I was completely stupid about it. You know, I was just like. It never occurred to me that she hadn't had, you know, that anyone who had gone to college hadn't had a lesbian experience. That never occurred to me because, you know, I think that's one of the courses you have to take in College.

Lesbian 101. I missed the course too, Ann Marie.

It's called a log. A lesbian until graduation.

I never graduated. Yeah. So I would, you know, even when we were just friends, I would say, oh, I'm sorry, I'm probably flirting with you or whatever. And she would say something like, oh no, I like it. You know, so it was like she says she wants to be friends, but I mean every woman straight or a lesbian or half non binary or whatever, like everyone likes to be flirted with, you know, and she liked to be flirt, flirted with.

Well, but what, and but one couple of things I was going to say is that I was in comfort zone because she was really grieving her relationship with, with Meg. And so for the first month, that's what we talked about, you know, and I was just like, I was, I'M a chaplain. So I was Chaplining her and so I was very, very comfortable with that. And then we started talking again. And after I unfriended her and she reached out to me and I really thought hard to like. And she had no idea I unfriended her, by the way. But she reached out to me and she said, you know, I was like, I really thought about it before, whether I wanted to answer her or not. It took me a couple of days to answer her. And then we started talking again. And, you know, it was very, very friendly. It was just friendly. And I went to New York City, it was about the week before Christmas, and I met a bunch of women from that group who are in the process of coming out later in life. And I had a really. I really had a horrible time. And I was like, I don't know if I can do this. My ex husband had just outed me to a friend the night before. I was really disappointed that he had done that because I wasn't ready to tell any of our, like marital friends that what was going on. And I went out with them and everybody was coupled and it was this picture from.

I just saw the picture because I was in the group and they posted to the group and there's like everybody on one side and.

Leaning over.

I was like, that's odd.

Yeah, body language, you know.

So we.

So we started. I was on the train coming home and we started texting. And she a couple times before had said, hey, do you want to talk? And I'm always like, no, no, no. Because I knew if I started talking to her, it would go to another level. So I wouldn't talk to her. And so we were texting and then she said, do you want to talk? And I'll never forget this because I was driving up the hill from the railroad station and I said. And I put her number in and I said, if I call her, this is going to change my life. I don't know how I knew that. I mean, I knew it was going to change it even if, you know, if it ended up just being a couple month flirtation or whatever. And so I did, I called her and which I think to me that was like one of those acts of bravery you have when you come out. And then she answered the phone and oh my God, she had this southern accent, which I didn't expect. I didn't expect.

What did you think, darling? That I was gonna.

I forgot she was Southern. Tonda always wished now Tonda wish she had gone north when she was young.

Oh my God, yes.

Now there's not as many repressed women.

They always used to talk. I didn't even know where it was. They always used to talk about, there's a place called Northampton and they have all these lesbians there. We would always talk about, we should go, you know, northern lesbians. I should have gone.

So we talked and then a couple of days later.

Hold on. Okay, you get to go. So when she called me, that's the. She had put on a really brave face as far as when we're messaging and when she called me, I heard her fear in her voice. Like I had not heard it. She's like, oh my. At the time, her husband or whatever, we're, you know, we're getting divorced. It's amicable, you know, this was all what she had written to me. But when I talked to her, I just heard all of her fear. And so that's when I wasn't really chaplain her, but I was like, oh, she needs somebody, you know. And I told her, you know, I said, it's very, very different to be. There's nothing wrong with a bunch of people who are just coming out. But that's very different from, you know, my friends that have been out a thousand years. We don't talk about being all, you know, we don't. It's not an issue anymore. You know, there's like a difference. It's not. You just exist, just like it's no big deal. Now most, most women who've been out a long time and I think, you know, she had a hard time with that being the. I mean, that's why they were meeting so obviously that was the focus of it, you know. And like before I met Ann Marie, I hadn't talked about coming out. I didn't even talk to my friends that about coming out. She learned all, they're coming out.

Everybody, everybody tells me they're coming out. Absolutely. We have met more people randomly that sit down next to us and are in the process of coming out. I don't know, is that the universe, Anna?

Honestly, I think it is the universe. And I think, Tonda, you have like a really good point, right? Like when you're first coming out, it's like this really overwhelming experience. And you know, I realized I haven't even been out 10 years to my own family and that. But the further away I get from it, the more I'm like, oh yeah. I used to think about this all consuming all day, every day. So I think having someone in your Life that knows that it doesn't have to be the focus. Like, it's a piece of you and we need to honor it, but it doesn't have to. Like, everything about you isn't because of that one thing, and it is about that one thing all at the same time, but it just becomes a focus that's different. So I love that you got to show and stand for Anne Marie. Like, that she could find a pathway out of, like, that. The chaos and the heaviness of what she was facing. Like, it's. It's such a beautiful thing. And I think that's why it's so beautiful what Ann Marie does as well. Right. Like, we're taking the. What we've learned and we're going, and we're helping those other people. And I think that's so beautiful inside your relationship.

So she still asked my opinion about certain things. She certainly, you know, knows all about lesbian culture, stuff like that. Yeah, but there is, you know, you just. I mean, if you haven't been out for 30 years, you know, I mean, what is it, 40 years? 40 years?

It's 40.

You know, you have.

You just have.

More of an ease about it where I think it's. It's more of like, no shit's given. You know, when you first come out, you're like, oh, rightly so. You're, like, so nervous that people are gonna turn their back on you, and that's a legitimate concern. But after you've had that happen, you've lived through it, you're like, I don't. You know, I don't care anymore.

You know, And I feel. Yeah, and I've gotten to that place, too. Is that I really just don't care anymore, you know? But that took a while. I mean, it's been almost six years now.

And I remember we were. I remember a lot of our first conversations and where I said. She said, oh, I don't really notice people, you know, being homophobic or whatever. And I was like, you will. And we were talking about being angry, you know, like the angry activist lesbian or whatever. I'm like, you will notice it, and you will be angry at it. And so now, you know, five years later, she's like, can you believe they did that? I'm like, of course. Me and my friends were like, we're tired. We tired. She's like, got the fire. And we're like, yeah.

Well, the thing is that when you live with, like, almost the ultimate privilege as a. You know, I'm white. I was married to A man. I had four beautiful children. I had a career. I had wealth.

You're a minister.

As a minister, I'm still a minister, but, like, it's pretty privileged in this country. It's a very privileged place to be. And what I didn't realize was my privilege. And when I came out, I mean, yeah, I'm still white. I still have pledge, but. And I'm still able to make a good living and all like that, but I am. Like, you really realize, like, how, like, how there is prejudice against the queer community and stuff like that. And. And it. It makes me honestly, blood. My blood boil because it's so ridiculous. Like, you are gonna discriminate against me because of who I go home to at night and who I love. Like, are you really? Like, so, Like, I am outraged. Outraged. Because it's just ridiculous. It's. It's just ridiculous. And so what's really interesting, like, my partner Tonda, or my wife. Sorry, my wife Tonda.

Sorry, honey, we're married. Yeah.

And, like, my friends that, like, are your age, Anna, that have been gay, they've been out since they were, like, 14 and stuff, they don't. They really don't understand what I'm talking about because they have always felt the discrimination, but now I feel it. But I didn't have the discrimination before.

We're just happy we're no longer illegal. When I came out, it was literally illegal to be gay. To be gay. I never, ever dreamed that. I was almost angry when the push for marriage. I was like, they're going to get us all killed. It's never going to happen, you know, and so, so much different now than it was. We still have a long, long way to go. Because as we know, with everything, women's rights, gay rights, immigrant rights, there's just always this chipping away, Chipping away.

Even when you get it, I think you guys are also pointing to, like, the emotional labor of it. Right. And, you know, on some level, I can relate, Tonda, like, with how I grew up in the college I went to. Like, you weren't even allowed to say that you were gay while you were there until, I believe, like, my sophomore year, if I would have said it before I got kicked out of school. So I understand some of those components. And also, it is definitely a process, right? Like, because you have, like, you know, the fear that you're facing yourself, and then there's the fear that you have to deal with others, and then there's the societal fear and all those shifts, and I love that there's like a way of growing where we. As we lean into who we are, we can see we're not going to put up with being treated less than the human beings that we are. And that's one of the things I really see in both of you, that it's just so inspiring. Like you're just. You're just living your truth and being yourselves, and it's just such a beautiful thing, you know? And, yeah, it's.

Honestly, you start to see where you take over in Marie's niche, but where God is love, you start to see that the hatred is the exact opposite, even if it's coming from the church. They act like they hate you, and you're just like, that's not right. They, you know, a lot of the same conservative people try to hate immigrants, and you see all this hate, and all of a sudden you don't hold it all because you're gay. You're like, oh, they would hate me because I'm a woman. You know, I'd be lesser to a lot of society because I'm a woman. You know, I would be. You know, there's all these things that you see. It's. It's like coming out is one of the most edifying experiences to show you never under. I was very privileged when I came out, and I had. I didn't really have a good. You know, I did not really feel how black people feel or whatever. I still don't feel that way because I have the privilege of being white. But I can, you know, understand it a lot more because I do remember not to talk about my coming out, but I do remember going, oh, my God, I'm. I'm going to be discriminated against.

And this was in the 1980s where it was people and in the south, where people really did face a lot of discrimination at that time.

I mean, it was still aids, was still, you know, they still use that as an excuse. Even though lesbians didn't get it right 100. They got that less than straight women. Straight women. So, yeah, I mean, it is truly you. You have to see everything in life from a different perspective to put in the right place the discrimination that is put upon you. You know, oh, well, same people hate me, hate immigrants, they hate. You know, and a lot of times what you see is the. Of people who, you know, are secretly gay themselves.

Yes. So much so. I mean, you can go look back at the conversation and just, you can see some of that pattern coming up. And I think, you know, that really points to Me, Tonda, like, why the work that Ann Marie does is so important? Because I feel like the more that we embrace ourselves and the more we break down our own internalized homophobia, the more we can set that stuff aside and not let us stop us from finding happiness and finding love and finding lives that are fulfilling. Right. And I think that that's one thing I really see. And, you know, I want to get back a little bit more to your story here, but I did.

I know we went off the ramp.

Because I think, you know, like, it is something that holds a lot of people back from coming out or living authentic, authentically. But I also see hope around it. Like, yes, it's been there, and it is going to keep getting better. And that's because the more we embrace who we are and the more we step into that, the better it gets for all of us. I mean, I really do believe that and see that. And, you know, just like you said when you first met Anne Marie, she was like, woohoo. She's got all the fire. And she's like, yeah, I'm angry. And you told her. She's like, I don't know. And that's. To me, that's just part of the process of really seeing, like, yeah, I'm going to be myself. No shit. No kidding. I'm happy to be myself. So I just think that's really beautiful. And I want to hear more about, like, what was the moment that you guys knew you were in love with each other? I want to hear about that moment.

I saw her picture, so I was dealing with a much clearer head than she was. And we've talked about this, and I.

Would really like to talk about this because it's something we see again over and over again in my secret Facebook group. But so one day, like, a couple of days after we first talked on the phone, I said, I'm bored. And she sent me a picture.

If you want to.

She sent me a picture of herself in her bra. And all of a sudden the gloves were, like. The gloves were off. And we started like, well, this is gonna do it. It's either gonna do it or it's gonna just kill it. And we started to flirt, and that was it. Like, we really, really started to fl. And about three weeks. Was it three or four weeks later, we met each other for the first time. Pennsylvania was our state because she was in Tennessee and I was in Connecticut. So we met Pennsylvania. We met in so many hotels and airbnbs in Pennsylvania just to see each other. And our first weekend was literally magical. We spent like four days with each.

Other, which we look back on that and that's crazy. Like, we wouldn't recommend it.

We don't do that. Don't do that. But it was magical.

It worked out.

I mean, it worked out, but like, we look back in that and like, why did we plan four days with each other? That could have been like a. Well, you know, what would have happened? Somebody would have went home. You know, someone would have left. So we spent four days with each other and we had a magical, really, truly magical time.

And, you know, see, all of my friends had been going. Not all of most of them have been going. You know, she's just coming out. You know, she has four kids. She is in the process of a divorce. They've just, they were, they were very close. The brakes, pump the brakes, you know, And I came back from that. I'm like, I don't care if she ripped my heart out. I'm just going to pursue this. I. You know.

And how many years ago was that?

It'll be five. It'll. Five notes. Six. It'll be five in January.

Five years. I love it. I love it.

But the thing is, is that like, you know, you asked when did we fall in love? And I, you know, Tanda was. We've talked about this, so I'm not sharing anything, but like, Tanda was truly, like, fell in love with me first. And I was going through so much stuff. Like, I was. My divorce was very brutal. My kids were all over the place and how they felt about everything. They were very upset that their parents were getting divorced. It was. I was. My head was just in a million different places and I really, really struggled with depression and suicidal thoughts and all kinds of stuff like that. Tondo really supported me during that time. And it really wasn't until about nine months later and it was like September of that year that I realized that I was in a relationship, a long distance relationship with somebody else. And you know, before that it was, you know, lust, you know, all that stuff like that and just amazing connection that we had with each other.

But she was just gonna sleep with me. And then we went up.

No, we both were gonna do that.

Okay.

Yeah, you were gonna do. We both thought we're gonna about to hit it and quit Italian.

Typical lesbian relationship. Right.

Like, I wasn't planning on having any kind of relationship.

So we go to just get something to eat to just, you know, in. She, she told me this. She was like, damn it, I like her.

Yeah. Like, so when we went out to eat, I was like, oh, I like, damn it. And, you know, we had this really interesting happening. Happen to us, but we were in Target and we were just getting some, I don't know, some supplies or something. And like, this energy passed between the two of us, like. And I was, like, so stunned. I actually said something to her and I. Did you feel that? And she said, yeah, I did.

I felt it, but I wasn't gonna say it.

And I was so stunned that I actually said something because I was like, what the hell is this? And so that was, you know, I. You know, I guess I was falling in love, but I couldn't admit it to myself, you know, I just couldn't.

And.

And honestly, I had. I had fallen in love before, but not in this way. It was just different. It was just different.

And I will be real honest in that there were times when she unintentionally just hurt me. You know, like, we would talk about, you know, maybe one day living in the same state or, you know, and then I'd meet her again. I'd be so excited, excited and about moving somewhere, you know, and I could tell that her. Her head was like, oh, well, I. I don't want this to be the only person that I date or whatever. And I just was in. I was so in love with her that I was like, I am going to ride. I don't really mean to say that I'm going to. I'm going to.

You're taking that out? You're going to wait it out?

Is that what you're gonna say?

I'm gonna wait it out.

Okay, we'll start just a second. Okay. Yes. So. So go ahead. K. So you're going to.

I was going to enjoy every moment with her that I could. And from the very beginning, I thought, there's. There's no way that this, you know, really is going to. Sexy, classy woman from Connecticut. There's no way that this, you know, old dyke from Tennessee is going to, you know, be able to be with her. So from the very beginning, I was just like, this is doomed. But. But let's do it anyways.

And so then it's like jumping out.

Of an airplane without a parachute. Well, it's gonna be pretty until you hit the around.

So then we. We long distance dated for about a year and a half, which is hard. It's really hard because when you're really in love, when you're in love, it's hard. Like leaving at the airport, saying all that stuff. We did all that stuff, and it was hard. And we both spent a lot of time doing what we're doing now. We did so much Zoom and FaceTime and all that stuff like that. And then I moved down to Tennessee in 2018, about a year and a half after. About two years after the process started for me and I needed to get away. I needed to change. I needed. I needed to be a play in a place where I was just a lesbian and not somebody who'd been married, the kids, where everybody knew my story and everything like that. I just wanted to just be out as a lesbian and not deal with all that stuff. And also, I really needed to heal from a divorce. That really took me by surprise. Really took me by surprise. And so we moved down here. I moved down here, and we've navigated a lot. You know, her mom. I moved here because her mother was ill. And Tanda's mom died in 2019. We have renovated three houses and. Oh, and then Tanda had open heart surgery last year. So we've navigated an awful lot of very challenging things. And so I asked her to marry me two years ago. And then we got married October. So it was a wonderful week we had. It was a wedding week. We had a wonderful time.

I still can't believe I'm married. I still can't believe we're married. How did that happen?

How did that happen? Well, to me, it sounds like you didn't quite land on your face.

No, she just hung in there.

She's like hair and a biscuit.

That's what she is.

I just hung around.

I'm like, yeah, so, you know, like, you talk about navigating a lot of things, and I think, you know, that's something that it really takes a commitment to navigate the hard things. Right? And, you know, so for me, with my own wife, when we go through really hard things, I always remind myself of why I love being with her. I don't know, is there something that you guys remind yourselves of when you're facing something challenging that actually pulls you together so that you can remember you're on the same team.

After we walk away and calm down. Usually it's the stupidest stuff that you know. And then I guess lately what we've been telling one another is, you know, a lot of the fights that we have or have had are not with each other. They're with ghosts from our past and stuff. And it's the trauma from where, you.

Know, like, a lot of, like, a lot of people in the later in life community and people who are where, you know, we had trauma, traumatic childhoods, and especially in the later in life community, you'll find a lot of people come from chaotic or traumatic childhoods. And so our trauma butts up into. Against each other. I remember our first big fight that we ever had. We were like. We, like, literally didn't know. Like, the next day we were like, what?

Like, she was like, I'm so sad that we're not. I'm like, oh, we weren't really. I don't even know what we were talking about.

We had no idea what we thought about.

What are we fighting about? Right.

Okay.

Looks like we can kiss and make up, because neither of us can remember, right?

But one of the things that we've really started to do now is also like to remember that each of us have the best intentions. And we also really, when we do have a big blow up, we try really hard not to. Like, before it would like. So for me, when I have a big blow up, it takes me a long time to recover. And so I really work on trying not to be in a really bad place for a really long time. It's hard for me because I get really sad. Because the thing is that Tonda and I have a really good relationship 90% of the time. And then there's that 10% where I would say 95%. Okay, I would say 95% of the time. But then there's that 5% of the time where we're gonna kill each other.

We have a lot of passion that.

Just points to how much you love each other. Right?

Well, you know, the thing is that the opposite of, like, when you have a really huge fight, you know, the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. So the thing is that neither one of us are indifferent. We really get into some really. I mean, we fight. I mean, we've had to really work on it. We have seen marriage counselors. I mean, we saw couples counselors. We've done our own work individually.

The thing that you have to do is develop amnesia. You have to just say, that really hurt what they said. And I'm sure the things I said hurt too. And after you've been with someone for a long time, you know exactly. The software underbelly. You know where to go. And you can stand there. One of you can stand there and say, I'm not going to go there. I'm not going to go there. And then when they go there, you're like, well, they went there. So. And so we have tried to navigate. You know, sometimes we just, like, this is ridiculous. You know, it's just like. And it sounds like we file the time, but we don't. It's just.

Well, it sounds like to me, when there's that confrontation, it actually exists because you love each other so much. And even inside of the way that you love each other so much is how you resolve it and let it go. And I think that's very different compared to, like, a toxic relationship where there's arguing is there all the time. But I think for me, I had this ideal for a long time that the healthy relationship meant I would never argue with someone. And I really got to learn through my process and looking at the relationships of others that actually it's healthy to have conversations because you actually care about each other, and there's something here you need to work out. So I really just see how much your commitment is to each other. I really hear what you're saying, Tonda. Like, yeah, don't go push the button. Even if they go push it first, don't go push the button because you actually give a right.

And I have to say, too, that probably 50% of our fights, one of us will be able to like and say, let's stop doing this. And most of the time, the other person will be able to say, okay, let's stop doing this. And we've learned that we really, like, when we really get in a bad place, the best thing for us to do is separate or, like, someone go out and, you know, because, you know, you just hurt somebody when you keep fighting. And it's just. It's the better. The best thing for us to do when we're really in a bad place is to just to go somewhere. And, you know, I think for me, it is when we do fight and it gets bad, it's just so incredibly devastating because most of the time, things are really good. And so we are learning to really navigate that. And we've both done a lot of work. Like, it's. It's, you know, no matter what you say, you are 50% of that relationship. And it's not your partner's fault. You know, even if your partner is someone who's a drug addict or an alcoholic, you know, you are probably codependent and, you know, contributing to this relationship. And so we really have to, like, take responsibility for our own stuff. And Tonda's done it, and I've done it. We've done a lot of work around childhood stuff. We both, as I said, come from traumatic backgrounds. And then we do our own work. We do our couples work together, too. So because we want to be happy, we don't want to fight, you know.

And I think that's, you know, to me, that's what makes a couple. Couple goals. It's like, you're so committed to going through the good stuff together, and you're committed to going through the hard stuff together. And also, like, to navigate it in a way where, like, ultimately you get what you both want, which is to be with each other. Right.

Do you love me?

And to create a life together, you know? And, you know, a lot of the work I've had to do has been letting go of my old life because. And, you know, Tanda was much more, as she said, was much more ready to fall in love. I mean, it had been a couple years since she had been with Meg, and I was like. I remember when we first met, I said to her, come back in a year.

She said that. I was like, that's not how this works.

I've got too much stuff to go through. And, you know, I mean, part of. Part of me. I mean, it would have been nice to have met her a little bit later on because I would have been a little bit more settled, and I would have been able to enjoy just falling in love without all the other baggage that I had to deal with. But now I'm in love now, and I don't have the baggage.

So, yeah, it sounds like she really got to show up for you in a time when you needed someone. And I think that also creates, like, this unique strength inside of your friendship, but even inside of your partnership that, you know, you can count on her. And I think that's a really beautiful thing.

Oh, yeah.

Time to, like, I, like, I always joke she gave me the crash course and being a lesbian, but what I mean by that.

Let me tell you.

Well, but. But the thing is everybody's different and there's all kinds of people out there. But the thing is, is that she really challenged my internalized homophobia a lot. Like. Like, I didn't even realize I had. And so I feel like because of my relationship with someone who had been out for so long, like 30 something years, when we met, she moved me along faster because she challenged me all the time about, like, if I said something, you know, and not she would.

Say, you really like the word lesbian. And I'm like, well, I don't like it or not like it. You know, I like, I'm from Tennessee. I'm a Lesbian from Tennessee. I have the same amount of emotional baggage with lesbian as I do Tennessee. Although I'm not as happy to be from Tennessee sometimes, but you know what I mean? It's like I'm. I'm. I'm a woman in her 50s. I'm. You know, it's. It just is. It's not good or bad. It just is. And I know that that word has a whole lot of baggage for some, but that's what other people hang on you, you know, and if, If I was non binary, if I was, you know, I would say that. But to me, I've always, you know.

She loves the word lesbian and she.

Taught you the ways. I love.

And I'm very okay with the word and because really, a lesbian means woman who loves other women, and that's what I am. So I have. And I know that it's a loaded word for people and. But it's like reclaiming a word that has been used as a slur. And other minority groups have done that.

I mean, I like the word dyke. You know, early 80s dyke was like, you know, a powerful lesbian and it really jars people or whatever.

Well, it was funny with my son. I said, tonda's a handy dyke and goes, mom, you can't say that.

And you're like, yeah, I can, son. It's fine.

Yeah, I didn't. She calls herself that. And so, yeah, I like the word dyke too. I find that a really powerful word as well. And I also like the word queer. I use queer a lot.

Yeah. I think for so many people in the community, it just takes some of the pressure off to fit in a box when we just want to be ourselves. Right?

Yeah.

If you're navigating it to begin with. Right. Like, so it's. It's a whole world.

Well, the thing about. So I was shooting. I'm a photographer. So I was shooting a night shot in some little town in Kentucky. I think it was Owensboro. I don't know where it was. And this has never happened to me before a couple years ago, but. So I was standing out there and it was night times, had that really long exposures or whatever. And this truck went by and this hillbilly is hanging out the side going, get out of the road, you stupid dyke. I was on the. I wasn't in the road. But he's like, get out of the road, you stupid dyke. And I'm like, I am not stupid.

You're more offended and stupid than dyke. I love this.

And she yelled after him. I'M not stupid. Yeah, I was like, she was very offended. He called her stupid.

I would be too. I mean, I'm not stupid, but it's.

Like, you know, it's like you wear glasses, you're a woman, you're like, yeah.

And.

I love this.

You're lesbian. Guilty.

Lock me up, please.

I used to have a T shirt.

That said roll me in, honey and throw me to the lesbians.

Well, I think this is like such a great place, right? It's totally possible. Great. It's totally possible. I'll get represence too. So what I just hear in all the stories that you're sharing that it's totally possible to one, like, accept and love who you are, exactly who you are. Two, like, did it to your say who you gonna be and how you gonna live your life, even if it's later in life. And I would also say like, that you're gonna find people along your path. They're gonna help you lean into and discover who that is and love you. And yes, it might be sad that some of those people, you might lose some people, but you're going to find your community along the way and there is joy and peace and happiness on the other side.

Oh, yes.

And you know, I just, I don't know how to phrase this, but I think that. Be open to possibilities. Don't dismiss somebody because they look too butch or too femme. Be open to. And if you happen to find somebody and fall in love, don't throw it away. Be really thoughtful about throwing it away because that doesn't happen very often. And I almost threw this away a bunch of times. And I. It is now incredibly precious to me because, oh, I want to sleep with a bunch of women or oh, I want to, you know, have some time off.

And lots of people told her that they were like, don't you want to sleep with a bunch of women? Even my kids, I mean, they're like, I'm like, that's, you know, now I've.

Actually slept with bunch. I've had meaningless sex when I used years ago when I was 20 something. And I don't ever want to do that again. So like, that wasn't. But the thing is that I guess sometimes people think that they have to follow a certain path. And my path was I thought I was gonna come out and be single for a couple of years and then meet somebody and it didn't happen that way. And I really had to reconcile the fact that I ended up meeting somebody very quickly after leaving my marriage.

And I Personally think it was because she had other things to do. She had helped so many people, and I considered an honor to help her, you know, any way I can help all of these women who are really, really struggling. And I had not really thought about it or anything, you know, but now she knows. Yeah, now I know. You know. You know, and I just see vocabulary. She's been there, you know, whereas maybe, you know, sometimes you just want to go, not that big a deal, you know? Yes, you are. Yeah.

You know, and so I just, you know, it's really important just to remain open. And sometimes what you think you're gonna do, you don't end up doing. So I'm really glad that Tonda hung in there like a hair in the biscuit and doesn't sound the same.

I know.

I know. It's too northern when I say it, but the thing is, is that, like, I'm glad I didn't throw it. We've never broken up. We've had some really bad fights, but we have never broken up over the years. And I'm really glad that both of us hung in there. We, you know, we worked on it. We, you know, navigated a lot of things, but it's very precious to both of us.

Part of it, it was, is and was that I have been in a lot of lesbian relations, relationships. There's a lot of people in the South. It's very hard to. You have no, especially you couldn't get married. You have no backup from your family. You know, we just got married. My dad didn't come. You know, at this point, I don't care, but, you know, he doesn't speak to me. I knew how precious having that kind of, you know, at our age. Not that we're old, but I mean, at our age, when you have this passion, you know, that is something amazing. And a lot of times I thought, okay, she's gonna break up with me so she can date, you know, other women or whatever. And I'm like, what that's gonna do? And honestly, now that she's talked to, you know, I used to tell her there's a lots of crazy women out there. You know, trauma begets trauma. And she's like, well, it sounds like you just don't want me to, you know, date other women, or she would say something like that. Now that she's been coaching music, you know, there are.

Like. You see, the thing is, I was so new realize that. And so if you find somebody that you're falling in love with and they're Good wood, you know, and good peeps. Don't throw it away because of an ideal that you have about what you should do.

Yeah, never throw it away because it's not the right timing or whatever.

The timing will always sort itself out, won't it?

Yes, it will, and it did for us.

One of my friends, who's very, very emotionally intelligent or whatever, a lot of my other friends, were like, oh, be careful, be careful. And I was like, well, she's just coming out. And she goes, well, that's so nice. She's not gonna be jaded. And anybody who's been a lesbian for a long time knows what you mean, you know, And I did view things, you know, I got to view coming out and this whole new. It was like, new again, you know, because you forget after 40 years.

Well, yeah, and coming out, I feel like, you know, every year is the class, you know, so, like, I feel like I'm the class of 2016 and coming out. So my views a lot of times don't match people who are much. Who are my age, who came out a lot earlier. So I am really, like, you know, like, the whole. The gender. The whole issues around gender in the queer community, like, I. That's how I came out, so it's not an issue for me. But sometimes people who are older just don't understand it, or, like, who are my age but have been out a lot longer, who just don't understand something.

Because it's the, like, the evolution of the growth kind of like what we talked about and the perspectives of what. What gets to be so. And how we get to live our lives. I love that also.

There's, like, younger. Much younger people are like, oh, we don't have to marry. We don't have to get married. It doesn't matter if we. You know, I have a tendency to just almost jump on them. Oh, what if you're in an accident? You can't go back there.

You can't.

You've been with somebody 50 years. You don't get to be with them when they die because you're not family. You know, these are things that I.

Have had to face and deal with for a long time. Right, right. You know, I do think it is a huge celebration. Right. Like, I don't think I ever would have gotten married if that law was not legal, you know, Like, I probably wouldn't have. And. And there is a lot of emotional weight that came with that, you know, being ourselves and accepting us. And again, I'm just so grateful for all the work that has come long before me and before us and even, you know, your generations and the things that. That are now available to our community. And like you said earlier, there's still some more work to do. But like what Ann Marie said a second ago, it's possible. Let's not shut down what's possible. And I think it's really beautiful. So my last question for you guys is, do you have a coming out song?

Oh, well, so what was yours? I didn't have a coming out song because there weren't. There was a lot of lesbian music on Olivia Records, but I didn't really listen to it, you know, that much. I will tell you that that song by Mary, She Keeps Me Warm, which was long after I came out, long after it came out, brought tears to my eyes because I thought, oh, my God, I wish I'd had that song. Like, I. I understood every word in that song, including the Bible verses she's singing at the very end of it, you know, And I was just like, oh, my God. It was like I'd been out, I don't know, 25 years or whatever when that. And I was just like, God, I wish I'd had. You know, there were no songs, you.

Know, and actually Tanda and I were talking about that song yesterday because it's the end of the McLemore song. And I said, you know, I said, reason number 122, you might be a lesbian. Because I used to cry when I heard that song before I came out. And, and, and I said, so if you're crying to, like, coming out songs, there might be a reason. But for me, it was the song this is me from the Greatest Showman, which became really popular. I'm a Broadway buff. I mean, there's a gay man inside of me dying to get out. But I really love that song. I still listen to it and it still can bring me tears.

There was an old movie called Making Love that came out and was way, way ahead of its time, and Harry Hamblin was in it. There's a song, and I forget, I think it. I forget who sings it. I think it's Gladys Knight, but it's on the soundtrack of that. And my person that I was with, I went to see it and I was with a guy then because we thought we couldn't be together. And that song would make me bawl. But I was. Hadn't come out. I'd actually done the opposite, you know. But that song, I.

That song, yeah, it's about a gay couple that movie. Yeah.

About a person coming out after he's married. And I don't know how it got made in 1985 or whenever it was.

But the universe just pushed that on through. I love it well, and I think it's really beautiful. And I just want to say thank you so much for letting me be your guest host and for sharing your story and also just for being yourselves and, you know, helping people see, like, what's possible for your life at any age. Like, being yourself is always the best choice, and there's so much more to be had. Right. Like, yes, I know you guys have been together for five years, and I haven't been with my wife for very long either, but I do see that because we get to be with the people we love, that means anything gets to be possible for the rest of our future.

Exactly. Exactly.

Just existing is. Is just. Just sitting here with her is so much more than anything else, you know? I mean, we love somebody that much.

Yes.

All right.

Thank you so much, and thank you. You're welcome.