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My name is Luke, I live here in Utah and I'm currently working as a flight instructor out of the Provo Airport AV Nation.

What is going on?

And welcome back to the Pilot the Pilot podcast.

My name is Justin Seems and I am your host.

It has been a while since I've done an episode with someone that is currently going through the grind.

Currently as a CFI waiting for the call, wanting the call, maybe not even at a total of 1500 hours yet.

I reach out to Luke who goes under the Instagram name that pilot Luke and we talked about what his journey has been so far.

He chose ATP.

Did he regret ATP?

He currently has about 900ish hours and he is still in the grind.

It was awesome to hear kind of what his outlook is, what he wants, what he thinks he wants and you know I think it's interesting to ask him what you dreamed of now because there's a good chance that might change in the future.

It was great having Luke on.

I appreciate the conversation we had and I I really hope he has.

He's looking for a great mentor.

If you are listening to this and you think you might be able to help Luke, I'm sure he would appreciate if reach out to them and also check out professional Pilots of tomorrow as it's a great option for mentors which I mentioned to Luke as well.

AV Nation thank you so much for listening to this podcast.

We are currently working on volume two of the magazine.

We're going to have a massive section on how I built my time.

I'm really looking forward to it.

If you have kind of an obscure way, you know, not the normal CFI aerial survey freight way of how you built your time, let me know.

Email me justin pilot hq.com or, or send me a message on Instagram at Pilot the Pilot AV Nation.

I hope you're having a great day.

Without any further ado, here's Luke.

Luke, what's going on man?

Welcome to the Pilot the Pilot podcast, dude.

Thanks for having me on.

Yeah man, anytime.

Happy to be here.

I'm excited to talk talk with you and talk about kind of someone that is currently in the process of building their time, chasing their dreams and getting to where they want to get.

It's been a while since I have talked with someone that isn't either at a major airline, a corporate job or anything like that.

So I think it's going to be awesome to hear kind of a fresh take what you're going through, what you want, what your goals are and maybe how they've changed throughout your flight training or even just you starting to become a pilot.

We will eventually get there, but the first thing I always ask everyone is why did you become a pilot in the first place?

Why did I become a pilot?

You know, I wasn't one of those people who, you know, since they were five, knew they wanted to become a pilot.

Their dad was a pilot, grandpa.

It was a little bit different, you know, went to college, was going to do medicine, then was going to do finance and you know, started chatting with my brother in law who is a pilot though and you know, he flies currently for Delta and after chatting with him, he seemed like he had a pretty good lifestyle and you know, enjoyed what he was doing, didn't dread going to work every day.

So I went on a few flights and man, I loved it.

I just thought the idea of, you know, being able to actually, you know, make money as doing it as a career and you know, just flying an airplane and also making money doing that, you know, why wouldn't you sign up?

I mean I had been able to save up some money that would be able to pay for flight training, so decided to just go for it.

Yeah.

Was everything he said about becoming a pilot like, I mean obviously when you're flying at Delta and you're flying at the majors, you can really brag, you can talk about how great it is, but you know, the grind to get to that.

Did he fully explain what the grind was like or did you think you didn't really know what you're getting into.

You know, I mean, he did like, he educated me.

He was kind of lucky himself.

He did a 141 collegiate program, got through his stuff, and then went straight into corporate flying with his dad.

So he was already in jets from kind of day one and then, you know, went to a different airline, then to Delta pretty quickly.

The timing was good for him.

So I don't know if I was fully aware of the grind, you know, after paying the six figures for flight training, but I'm definitely more aware of it now.

Yeah.

Would you say you regret not going to med school or going the medicine route or finance route, or are you pretty happy with what you made?

Oh, definitely not.

I'm so happy to be here.

My wife just started her first nine to five corporate job doing, you know, sales, cold calling at a tech company.

And man, I'm her, herself and myself, we both say every day I'm so thankful that I chose what I did.

So, yeah, I love it.

There's nothing, I mean, I'm not trying to like knock what your wife's doing, but there's nothing that makes me more anxious than the idea of having to call someone on the phone and be like, hey, you want to talk about sales in the head?

It's like, oh, it's terrible.

I just couldn't do it.

No props to her.

I'm, I'm proud of her.

Yeah, absolutely.

That's awesome, man.

All right, so you chose flying.

What was kind of your thought process like?

All right, you made the decision, you took those flights, but it's like, what do you do now?

Do you just go to Google, type in flight schools?

New me.

Did you talk to your brother in law like, hey, where'd you train?

I want to do the same thing you did.

Yeah, so I actually was doing door to door sales in the summers in between college.

So I was going out and doing that to make money because, you know, you can make a decent chunk of money doing that.

And then, you know, I'll never forget the door I knocked where it just like a light bulb in my head, you know, why have you never considered becoming a pilot?

So anyway, started looking into it that summer and that fall and really didn't do a ton of research.

I, you know, just looked up on Google flight school near me, fast, flight school, whatever.

And then my feed of course just got blasted with ATP and you know, biggest flight school in the country.

You know, they're advertising this whole seven month thing.

So really I Did not do that much research.

I said they're the biggest flight school.

They advertise that it's fast.

And you know, I chat with my brother in law and he put me in touch with a few people who had gone through the school.

But I didn't think much about it.

And you know, I had saved up a good amount of money so I wasn't gonna have to take out a loan.

And you know, I was ready.

That's right up my alley.

Doing a fast paced, intense thing.

And I didn't want to, you know, take a few years to get into it since I already spent two years in college.

What was, what was a sell ATP was kind of giving you at that time?

Was it like, hey, we're getting people to the airlines within like one or two years of their training?

Was it like kind of these really, really fast track kind of like crazy timelines or what?

Was there any kind of realistic like, hey, like yeah, this is fast right now, but it could slow down at any time.

Yeah, you know, I think it's what they've always kind of sold.

Originally when I looked them up, they were promoting zero in seven months to go from zero to mei.

And now they promote, I think a year.

But anyway, I was able to do it in eight and a half months.

But yeah, they were selling that.

The idea that you would be able to get a CFI job with them, guaranteed, you know, maybe I just didn't read the fine print, but that was on the impression that I had.

And then they're also here in my backyard.

There's two locations close to me and my wife is in school here where we live.

So, you know, didn't want to move around.

And honestly aviation is a very niche, small thing.

So if you look up flight school, you're not going to see the, you know, mom pop shops that are 20 minutes away from me.

You're going to see ATP and then uvu, the college that's here.

So I didn't realize they were that many options around me, honestly.

Yeah, no, that's what's crazy is a lot of people don't really see like you know, you type in I want to fly.

ATP comes up embry riddle.

Like the big schools, like keep scrolling, you know, maybe might need to go.

A couple pages and the.

But there are some other options.

Utah has a massive and I'm sure other states like this, the Facebook, you know, community with flight schools.

I had no idea that was a thing that there's several schools.

But anyway, yeah, so we'll get into kind of ATP now.

But I want to ask before we get into there, is there any regret in the decisions that you made on choosing ATP or going that route or looking back on it?

You know, ATP works great for certain people and you sound like the type of person it works great for.

You know, you get your stuff on fast, you can keep up with the high paced program and you're not going to get behind and you're going to knock it out.

But there is some people that can't kind of drink from the garden hose that that is ATP.

But looking back on your choices that you made, are you happy with where you went for training?

Are you happy with how everything went or if had to go or could go back in time, would you make any changes?

You know, I guess the answer is yes, I'm happy with how it went for me and yes, I would go back and choose a different route if I could, if that makes sense.

You know, it worked, it worked for me.

I got through an eight and a half months and you know, I liked the instructor that I worked with most of the time.

He's a stud, awesome guy.

As far as how they operate their program.

It's, you know, I do believe with my chunk of money that I have, I could have went and got a small airplane, hired an independent instructor and done it for maybe a half or two thirds the cost that I spent flying a 172.

There's a lot that I could get into.

I think for me it worked though.

But at the same time I think I probably wish I would have just been educated and done another route just because I could have gotten a broader flight experience flying different airplanes, meeting different people and then also, you know, saving money.

It's.

Yeah, I definitely think I, you know, overpaid kind of for what I got.

I don't know.

Yeah, that makes sense.

No, I feel like at the end of the day you're always going to think you paid a little bit more.

Yeah.

Than you probably should have.

That's true.

You're always gonna, you know, the repeating.

Even if you did at 61, whatever you did or if you have your own airplane.

Like, well, the maintenance added up.

It's like maybe I could have done a cheaper ATP, but it's expensive no matter which way you're going to do it.

Yes.

There's obviously ways someone's going to comment on this, be like, I had a 150 and I did it for $20,000 and I did it in six days and it's like, all right, bro, sorry.

Cool.

People, people do that on all of my YouTube videos.

Well, private for that much.

I did it for a fourth.

I'm like, all right, cool.

Yeah, yeah.

Well, this is what I did.

Sorry, bro.

Yeah, but it worked.

It got you to where you are now.

You are cfi.

Talk a little bit about kind of going to ATP day one.

Did you prepare?

Did you have like pre study materials that you needed to go over or you just show up?

It's in doc and you're, you're, you're going from there?

Uh, yeah.

I mean you'll hear a lot on the Internet that it's very, you've got to be very self motivated, which I was.

I was, you know, before starting In March of 2024, I was super gung ho.

What's everything?

Watching every YouTube video, every article on what you can do to prepare.

So.

So all the written knowledge tests for private instrument, commercial cfi, all of those I think is.

I can't remember how many knowledge tests I went and studied and used, you know, Sporties and Shepherd Air and got every single knowledge test done before I even started flight school.

So that helped me a ton.

They sent you materials, but it was kind of just like, oh yeah, study your sporty's private pilot ground school before you show up.

That was kind of the extent of from what I remember.

But I was, my focus was the written test and I think that helped a ton.

Because when you're in the program, you do not have time to go and study Shepherd Air questions and just memorize those questions because, you know, those tests are, you know, strictly pretty much just memorizing them and get them done.

So getting them done before was huge.

I love Shepherd Air, but there is nothing more painful than the very first day you log in to Shepherd Air and you like have to start the memorization process and you're just like, I don't want to do this.

But then by day three, you're like, all right, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

Figure B with this speed and the answer is always D. It's like, all right.

I mean, I knew nothing about aviation and I was studying for, you know, the instrument written test.

And I had no clue what I was even saying, but got got through it.

So did you, you mentioned ATP.

You would think that ATP would have their own kind of CFI material, CFI classes.

Yeah.

Especially with how there's so many people out there now that have CFI courses that you can take.

You think ATP would have their own.

But they mentioned just Use sporties.

Did you use any other kind of.

Did you watch YouTube videos?

Did you watch any other CFIs?

You know, there's Chris from Angle of Tack, there's Jason or there's Jason Moments and Jason Palmer merged the two.

Jason Miller from the Finer Points out in California.

Did you use any other resources like that or did you just kind of stick with the sporties and what ATP.

Said before the program or during it?

Either one.

Yeah, love those guys by the way.

Their channels are awesome.

Before, the program is strictly shepherd air for almost everything except for private studying for the written knowledge test.

Once you're in the program.

ATP does have their own form of ground school, but they, back when I was there, I don't believe they paid the instructors for ground school.

They would do one group ground each week where you would sit down with private students or all.

When you were an instrument, you were with all instrument students at the school and it was like two hours and you do one group ground and then hopefully, fingers crossed, your instructor would give you more grounds even though they weren't getting compensated for that.

So it's kind of, that's crazy.

Cutthroat.

And then they also had plenty of videos and materials.

They, they gave you lots of materials to study.

But I did a ton of YouTube, you know, tons of watching.

Jason Miller, Engle Attack.

Free pilot training.

All those guys.

Yeah, so.

So ATP, their idea was you do all the ground yourself and you show up and just fly.

That's kind of what they wanted, honestly.

I mean, yeah, I mean when I, when I was there, my instructor and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he was not getting paid to teach me a ground.

So he, he was a good guy.

He would, he'd come and sit down with me.

But a lot of it was you study on your group, you should be studying all day.

When you're not flying, it's a full time job.

So yeah, very self, you know, you got to be self motivated.

So what was the timeline like?

Sorry.

So you did everything in eight and a half months.

But let's talk about zero to private checkride.

Did you take that right at you know, 40 hours, 45 hours or kind of talk about from zero to private, then go, we'll go into instrument commercial and all that and kind of how it all went.

But did you.

I guess another question too is when you're going and taking this, these classes so fast, was there ever a point in time where you're just like, what on earth am I doing?

This is extremely Overwhelming.

Why, why didn't I just continue knock on doors and sell stuff.

Oh, 100.

I mean so many people think, oh, I'm going to become a pilot.

Like that sounds pretty cool.

Seven months and then I can, you know, get a job and then go to the airline a year later.

Yeah, it was, you know, you don't realize how much goes into it, but it was super fast.

I mean we were flying it almost every single day.

Pretty much no time off throughout the whole program except for those short little two week windows where I was waiting for a checkride.

So private, I think I got through private in about two months or two and a half months from first day to checkride, I think I was about 70ish hours.

Instruments, same thing.

I think another about two, two months, two and a half months.

And then one thing that I really did appreciate about ATP that they don't do anymore was the crew stage where after instrument, after you pass your instrument checkride, they pair you up with another instrument rated private pilot and you just go fly all around the country and just file IFR flight plans so you actually get IMC experience.

And you do that to build your time for a commercial.

And you know, that was great.

So you're paired with different pilots, different airports, real IFR flight plans in imc, but they don't do that anymore.

But anyway, commercial cranked through it and then it was straight into, I can't remember, I think it was straight into CFI and then commulti and then doubleign mei.

And all in all it took about 8 and a half months from day one to passing my MEI check ride.

So fortunately, you know, for most people it's not that quick.

I, I was lucky with getting check ride scheduled quick and then, you know, didn't, didn't fail any of them so that there were no hiccups with my training.

That's good.

Yeah.

I've heard a lot about the DPE shortage.

So hearing you say that you could get, you only had two weeks off, which is kind of crazy to think like your only time you had a break was waiting for your checkride, which is probably the last time you want to have a break because you start getting rusty and you start like overthinking things.

Like I don't want to break right now, I want to break after a couple long flights.

I don't want to break before my check ride.

But you know, it's, it is what it is.

And you hear stories about people flying to different cities to go book with another DP and then the weather.

Yeah, it's just getting a check right now.

Sounds like there's so much more stress on top of what used to be.

There's so much stress.

And I mean, and that's one of the things that you just, you kind of understand and sign up for ATP is, you know, If I had 10 hours left in my private training or instrument training, and I felt confident for the checkride, even if my instructor did, they'd say, you've got to fly out those 10 hours and then we'll book your check ride.

And then.

And then, you know, they kept changing their policy, but they'd give one flight a week.

So anyway, it was stressful.

You know, you're.

You got to be ready on a dime to take your check.

Right.

And.

But I really did appreciate that they, you know, they would, from my understanding, pay these examiners bonuses and fly them in to come do checkrides for us, which was awesome.

Oh, nice.

Yeah, that's good.

Love to see that.

Yeah, it was awesome.

What was the hardest checkride you had to take?

Oh, hardest CheckRide, probably.

Probably CFI, I think.

Yeah, I think more than anything, just the studying.

You know, if you can teach something, then you know it.

That's the thing you can get through your private instrument commercial by regurgitating answers and things.

But when it comes to cfi, if you, you know, you got to teach things and if you don't truly know something, you're not going to be able to teach it.

So.

Yeah, yeah, just so I was.

So I did aerial survey, but before I got hired by an aerial survey company, I was training for cfi and I was doing all the lessons with this, like, old school Texas instructor.

Like, I mean, if you, like, just as old school as they come.

Yeah.

And then he had a new private student coming up.

He's like, justin, come to breakfast with us.

I was like, all right, cool.

Just like, totally out of blue.

He's like.

And he's like, I want you to teach him everything you know about flying.

And I'm just like, oh.

It's like, I know what to do, like in my own brain.

But, like, I didn't know how to say it.

And when I said it, how I got it, I'm like, do you understand?

He's like, no.

I'm like, oh, yeah, okay.

I don't know.

What do you want to eat now?

Like, what do we do?

It's like, jim, I tag you in, buddy.

It's your turn.

And I was like, maybe instructing is not for me.

So yeah, I was looking for other jobs at that time anyways, but I eventually got there, a survey job and I was like, jim, sorry dude, but appreciate your time, but I'm out.

Yeah, that kid's actually at Delta now, so maybe I don't.

Maybe that he took.

Got something from me in that one breakfast.

Yeah, that's.

That sparked the crew right there.

Yeah, bse.

I'm very glad I never took the CFI check ride.

Just cuz hearing about how some of those ground CFI orals can be hours and the whole day and it's like I. I don't want to be here for nine hours talking about this.

Like, come on man, let's shorten this up.

Yeah.

And I feel like it can be super subjective on what the DPE is, you know, grading you on, but yeah, yeah.

So yeah, so ATP, man, but it got you to where you want to go.

You know, you said eight and a half months, you're doing what you want to do.

At the end of all that, did you get a job with ATP for CFI or you kind of left on your own to find your own job?

You know, I did not get a job right off the rip, you know, I thought I was.

Had a pretty good chance.

I felt like I had good relationships with at least my main instructor who did most of my training and some of the other instructors.

I was a pretty solid student, willing to take check rides whenever, you know.

But I think they did a short interview from what I remember, and then they kind of just put you on a waiting list.

They'll rank you based off of what lead instructors are saying about you and other stuff.

They don't reveal too much about the process, but pretty much you're just on a list of, you know, you're waiting for a call and I think I might even still be on the list, but never got a call there.

They did give you the option that after the program if you want to go to Jacksonville, I think, and work kind of on the corporate side of things and flight safety or whatnot, you can do that for three months and then you get a guaranteed indoc date.

I believe I've had a buddy that's done that and he currently flies for ATP as instructor.

So they did give you that option, but with my scenario and situation, I didn't want to.

So I was independently instructing and then also, you know, kind of looking for other gigs around here.

Yeah.

Were.

Were you open to moving or were you kind of like you said, like your situation?

Were you just set on staying in the Utah or Provo area, right?

That's what you said.

Yeah, I'm in Salt Lake and then I drive to Provo every day.

But at that time, no, I was not open to moving because my wife was still finishing up her degree here at BYU and had done, you know, three years or so, so.

And we didn't have a ton of money and you know, you don't make a ton of money as a cfi.

So we kind of.

And currently, you know, super thankful my in laws are letting us live here right now.

We moved back in with them and we're, you know, getting free rent.

So super thankful for that.

So it's kind of figured out we gotta stay here.

Yep, absolutely.

I mean, dude, hold on to that as long as you can because when you got to pay the bills, it's not fun.

You're like, oh, dang.

Yeah.

Holy smokes.

Yeah, it's definitely a grind.

And it's a grind that you're going to look back on and you're going to be thankful for.

And I promise you, you were going to miss it.

You'll look back and be, I don't know if this is you, but for me, I just kept looking toward the future.

I was like, man, I can't wait to fly for the aerial survey company.

I can't wait to fly for the freight company.

I can't wait to fly netjets.

I can't wait to fly for a major airline.

I just kind of like overlooked the training and really didn't try to appreciate where I was or what I was doing.

Because the reality of it is when you get to your final job, when you get to wherever it may be, the chances of you still flying small ga aircraft is pretty slim.

Like, I know it's, it's all part of your life right now, but there are so many airline pilots that do not touch small airplanes.

Whether they're not safe or, I mean, it's still expensive.

Even when your airline captain making 500 grand, they're still like, this is still too expensive for me to justify with my expenses with, you know, they have like six houses and boats and other stuff, but they're like, it's just too expensive.

I can't do it.

So truly try to slow it down and enjoy it because the job will come.

Obviously there's a little bit of a slow kind of hiring short.

There's still the pilot shortage, but you know, they're still kind of trim back a little bit.

They're going to get higher, more.

But it has slowed down a little bit.

But try to enjoy it.

I know there's probably lots of dreams, and you see some other friends and some other buddies kind of be accelerating, accelerated ahead of you or whatever it may be, but your time's gonna come, and you're really gonna look back one day and be like, dang, flying 172 is pretty cool.

Yeah, that's the goal.

I mean, it is so hard not to just focus on the next thing.

Doesn't even seem like I'll be in a bigger plane one day.

But, no, I. I enjoy what I'm doing, and I enjoy being an instructor, for sure.

Yep.

That's good.

Because it's funny, you know, you.

Every time I change jobs, every time anyone changes jobs, you're so excited.

You're so pumped to be there.

It's like, oh, my gosh, I finally made it to regional.

Then two years into the region, you're like, this job sucks.

I can't wait to get the majors.

And then you just.

Majors.

You're like, this is kind of similar to what region is like, but I just get paid more, and I have a little bit more time off.

Like, dang.

But this is it.

Yeah.

So, yeah, the best way is just have a good outlook on life and.

And just try to enjoy the process, because one day you're going to be 65 and you're retired.

Be like, dang, that was fun.

I like that.

Yeah.

No, for sure.

What.

What is your overall goal, or I guess I should say, have your goals changed since day one at.

To where you are now?

And what I mean by goals is like, what is your dream job?

Day one versus now.

Yeah.

Yes.

They have a little.

But the ultimate.

Ultimate goal is not.

I want.

I want to end up at Delta.

A big thing for me is family.

I love Utah, and I love being around family.

So I'm very aware that I'm going to move.

I'm prepared to have to move throughout the next decade or whatever.

But the end goal is to end up at Delta and be based here in Salt Lake.

That's.

That's the priority.

If it takes a while, that's fine.

Originally it was, oh, yeah, go to a regional, stick it out there for a while, then move to, I don't know, Frontier or, you know, somewhere else for a while, and then get picked up, hopefully by Delta.

But right now, what has changed is I'm super open to any opportunities I.

You know, again, you don't realize how many corporate and different gigs there are out there until you start meeting people.

So I'm totally open to, you know, my next job and next step in my career.

Definitely doesn't have to be go to SkyWest or go to Envoy or something like that.

Yeah.

So super open to anything, honestly at this point.

But definitely would like to end up at Delta one day.

Yeah.

Can't blame you there.

Especially living in Salt Lake.

You know, it doesn't beat.

Nothing really beats living in base.

Even if you someone that really wanted to go to Delta, but they lived in Chicago, it's like it's probably not the best airline for you to fly for.

Unless you want to move to that base.

Yeah.

Because not commuting is.

Is massive.

And I a corporate job.

Net jets where, you know, you didn't really commute.

They flew to the plane.

That was great.

Currently the job now I'm based in New York, so I had to commute from Raleigh to New York.

I did just get Charlotte, so it's still a drive.

But it beats kind of flying to New York.

So yeah, not trying to minimize your commute will be the best thing that you can do.

And I do recommend.

You did say it.

You're open to a lot of ideas, but don't be afraid to say yes to something you weren't necessarily thinking about.

You know, there's going to be some opportunities that might pop up and you're like, you know, I never really thought about flying a caravan in Hawaii or yeah, I had one friend that flew survey in some random country or protector, I don't know, out in the Pacific.

It's like, don't be afraid to say yes those opportunities because you never know where it's going to lead and it might change what you want out of your career.

Maybe you end up a net jets guy, maybe you end up at a different airline or maybe you're like, like, wait, we love living in Hawaii.

I'm gonna fly for Alaska now.

I was gonna say Hawaiian, but that's not a thing anymore.

Yeah, that's what my wife is shooting for.

That's what she wants.

Yeah.

I mean, hard to blame her.

I wouldn't mind that at all.

I'm like, yeah, that would be great.

Just.

Yeah, why don't you give it to me right now?

No, I. I'm super open to anything at this stage.

I. I think, you know, just like you said, any new job is like, oh, this is sick.

You know, new experience, new planes.

So.

Absolutely.

Talk a little bit about your CFI career as it is.

You mentioned that you were doing on your own, you were kind of building your own business.

You're kind of, kind of seeing how you can freelance it.

Has it been more difficult than you think it would have been by just being hired by ATP to find students to get hours?

Or have you enjoyed kind of, you know, owning this whole process and doing it on your own?

Yeah, so I'm, I'm, I'm no longer.

I don't really do independent instructing now I'm out of flight school in Provo, which I'll get to.

Yeah, no, I mean, as far as finding students, getting hours, 100% more difficult than being an ATP.

You know, they feed you students and then I think it was really good for me though, because I found a group of guys who rent aircraft out and, you know, do the legality of it.

I have to find students who will then rent the airplane and then hire me on to come teach them.

But anyway, they had a couple different Cessnas, Archers, different avionics and everything.

And I was a total G1000 baby at ATP.

So I think it was really good to go actually fly a six pack and see a GNS versus a gtn, GPS and an Archer and this and all that different stuff.

So that's kind of where some of my social media came in.

Trying to, you know, market myself and I was able to find a few students.

I really wasn't doing much flying though.

And then through social media I was able to meet one of my buddies who was able to put a word in for me and then got hired at a school down in Provo since last March now.

And awesome school.

They do aerobatics, uprt, upset prevention, recovery training.

So I've been.

I jumped all into that.

Have about 60 hours in a super decathlon doing upset recovery and aerobatics, tail wheels, and I'm able to teach in that plane.

They also have a Seminole that I teach in and I was able to luckily get.

I was able to become the chief instructor at the school too, so.

So it's opened up a lot of doors.

Um, but anyway, so that's where I'm at now and I've got plenty of healthy students and I think you can do it independent, but it, it definitely does.

Finding students can be a challenge.

It's just, you know, I don't know.

So, yeah, that's kind of where I'm at now though.

Yeah.

Has CFI life been about what you expected or do you.

Is it much different than what you expect?

It was going to be, uh, it's been Pretty similar to what I expected, I would say.

What I didn't realize, and I, I mentioned this in one of my reels on Instagram recently, is you're still always studying and obviously, you know, a good pilot's always learning and you hear that stuff.

But man, when you're teaching, you know, private instrument and then multi engine stuff and then upset recovery and tail wheel and spins, you've got to stay sharp on all that stuff.

I mean, it's hard enough just to stay proficient with your IFR stuff.

But, you know, I'm constantly, before I go teach a ground, I'm constantly working, watching a YouTube video, reading up on that subject.

And because it's stuff, you know, the skills and knowledge is perishable.

So I think that's the biggest thing that I didn't realize is how much I would still have to study even after flight school.

Yeah.

Have as many students try to kill you as I thought they would or has been less than you thought?

Oh, I don't know.

The private students maybe, but maybe some multi students too.

But no, it's not, it's not as bad as I think some people might make it out to be or seem.

I mean, no, I would say it's not too crazy with that stuff.

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I've always, always wanted a plane from Textron Aviation.

My dream plane is a 182, maybe a 206.

So hopefully in the next couple years we can make that happen.

But shout out Textron Aviation and as I said, make sure you go to txtav.com when you become kind of, you know, the Delta airline pilot that you want to be, do you think you're going to be the type of pilot that just goes home, doesn't fly anymore, or are you gonna be the type pilots like, all right, we're getting a Super Cub.

We're gonna go fly in the back country of Utah because, I mean, you have access to some of the, the coolest flying in the whole country.

I mean, outside of probably Alaska.

And there's some other cool places too, but I mean, backcountry pilots, you know, you're thinking of where you live and the opportunities that you have.

So is that something you think you'd want to.

To do?

Oh, a thousand percent.

I've had the opportunity to fly a Super Cub a few times and hoping to do some contract work in it, just out on BLM land and do different jobs in it.

But yeah, I mean, if the money's there and it makes sense for my family and where we live, I would love to like, I love doing low level backcountry stuff.

I mean, I'm already big into backpacking, hiking, and being outside.

So being able to fly, that's one of the best ways to see it.

It.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, there's a lot of people that do in that area too.

So you got some people.

There's a big Back country association, but there's no Super Cubs to rent, so.

You just had to buy one then.

I know you got a lot of courses.

Yeah, yeah.

Seriously.

Would you.

What was I gonna say?

How was I gonna say that?

Yeah, I'll scrap that part.

So, yeah, so you are doing the CFI thing.

You are going through this experience.

Have you ever thought that maybe being a CFI could be what you want to do?

Because, you know, there are some lifelong CFIs.

Does that thought ever come across your mind?

Do you love teaching that much or is it kind of, you know, this is good for now, but I'm ready to eventually do more.

Yeah.

I mean, and I don't mean to be that guy.

Right.

I. I do have a passion for aviation, but where I'm making anywhere from the range from 20 to 50,000 a year versus one day, three to 600,000 a year, you know, so math ain't math.

Yeah, no, it doesn't.

That doesn't make sense.

No, I love it for where I'm at now.

I really appreciate it.

I've always loved teaching, but no, I've never thought about doing this as a long term.

And you know, and we, the, we don't aim to hire instructors.

We aim to hire instructors at our school who, you know, actually have a passion for teaching and enjoy it.

But I think almost 95% of CFIs, you know, are doing it as a stepping stone.

Right.

You know, it's not like being a CFI pays more than doing survey or something.

So.

No, it's more of a stepping stone.

But that doesn't mean I don't try to do my job the best I can and provide the best instruction and actually enjoy it.

So.

Yeah, I don't know if that answers the question.

No, it does.

How many hours are you at right now?

Right, about 900.

900 total.

Okay, so.

And then you have a restricted ATP, so can you apply at a thousand or.

No, I do not.

Nope, just go 1500.

So.

1500?

Yeah, that's what I needed to back in the day, feel old.

But yeah, 1500.

So you are closer than you think.

You know, 600 hours.

As soon as you hit 1500 or what is it?

I think you can technically do like 1425 and then maybe.

I don't know if they still do it, but they have some I know Republic used to have where they would help you get the last like 50 hours or 25 hours of multi, which I'm not sure if that's still a thing, but is your goal to apply as soon as you can?

Are you currently looking into all the regionals and ranking?

My wife made me make a spreadsheet.

Actually, she made the spreadsheet.

I was like every single low time job with the benefits, with what it was, where it was, where it was and how it was.

Are you currently doing that now or are you kind of just waiting until you get a little closer?

You know, I might be naive, but I would totally do something like that.

But I feel like I maybe don't have that luxury.

I feel like, you know, I'm kind of.

I'm surrounded by guys who have sent in applications everywhere and still haven't heard back.

So I don't, I really, as soon I'll start.

And that's kind of what I found is I really like, I need a mentor.

I don't, you know, I have my brother in law who flies for Delta, but he's, you know, he only knows what he knows.

I really am trying to find someone or resources that are tapped into hiring more.

Hence why I've listened to your podcast and try to find podcasts just like this.

So yes, I'm trying to apply soon again.

Do I Apply now?

Do I not apply now?

Do I get the written done?

These are all things I'm trying to actually tackle right now.

But yeah, I'm probably going to start submitting applications soon pretty much to every regional.

And again, I'm not opposed to other smaller 135 operations, so.

So I'm really just trying to explore it.

But the plan is, yeah, just submit everywhere and hopefully get picked up by one or two or I have no idea what, what the future holds.

So have you heard of professional pilots of tomorrow?

Yes, I think so.

I highly recommend.

You mentioned that you're searching for mentor.

Is looking at that website and just filling out some information.

They'll give you a free mentor who is kind of tailored either to where you live or what you want.

And that is just an access of information that I think will be very good for you because it will give someone that either just went through the process or is has seen this and has helped a ton of pilots like you to get to where you want to go.

And they may know people, right?

Like, I mean in aviation it's all about who you know.

My jobs before I got to this final job was all based on who I knew.

I went to Ohio State.

I.

My aviation communications teacher was like, hey, have you ever heard of aerial survey?

They have an aerial survey company.

It's not too far from here.

I said, no, what's the name?

And I applied, got the job mostly because of him.

My freight company, same thing.

Friend went there from the Aero survey company who I Knew and then NetJets.

When I played football at Ohio State, I got introduced to one of the top guys at NetJets.

So I always wanted to go there.

That was who I knew.

And then when I left that company, coming to where I am now, I didn't know anyone.

So I was just kind of on my own merit, but just lucky actually.

But I actually, yeah, actually they knew your podcast.

Yeah, I probably, I probably wouldn't have got the job if they knew my podcast.

Like, oh gosh, not this guy.

No, that's probably what people are saying about me.

No.

Well, that's actually an interesting question because there is, I mean some airlines do it differently than others.

There is a little bit of a stigma out there sometimes with, you know, quote unquote influencers.

Are you worried at all about, you know, putting yourself out there, having and like the exposure of the Internet?

Like, I'm not saying that what you're doing is bad or anything like that, but sometimes there is a negative stigma to People with followers in flying and sometimes there's not.

But is that anything that you have thought about personally?

100%.

Yeah.

No, I mean, every time I post I'm thinking about it.

You know, when you get negative comments and I want to say something back or defend myself, I'm like, maybe that's not going to be seen as professional.

Maybe what I'm posting doesn't seem professional.

No, I definitely do think about it.

I just had a buddy apply to a regional and he got an email.

He also posts content and everything and got an email and they were analyzing all of his posts that got flagged and then they go in and review specific posts of his.

Oh, really?

That's.

Yes.

So it does make me worry, should I do it?

But at the same time it's provided different opportunities to make relationships and meet people.

So I want to keep doing it for that.

And also just to, you know, I enjoy aviation and sharing it with others and helping others who are a little bit behind me.

I appreciate people who put out content and I think if you do it the right way, it can be good.

But yeah, it does make me, you know, always worry a little bit about what a recruiter or someone, a potential employer is thinking about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I definitely do not respond to the negative comments.

I have responded negative comments before and it never came back because I'm.

I can be kind of petty sometimes.

Like, dude will screw you.

Oh, of course.

Yeah.

I.

But there are the opportunities that the person making that comment like, well, I'm actually the chief pilot of blah, blah, blah, so you're never gonna get a job here.

It's like, oh, shoot, all right, my bad, bro.

Sorry.

But sometimes, you know, just, just don't pay any attention to it and just either laugh it off or just try to, you know, have fun back and just joke back in a negative way.

But it can be tough and it is like a, you know, it's a double edged sword.

Like you like, posting the content has provided opportunities, but it also has the potential to get you in trouble and make the brand look bad, which everyone just want to protect their brand.

That's all they want to do.

They are afraid and they do not want to have one pilot that could post one reel that really kind of tarnishes their brand and affects their bottom line.

And if that happens, then, boom, you're gone.

They'll fire in a heartbeat.

But it's just, it's something that' very, very delicate to play.

And I think there is a right way to do it.

And there's a wrong way to do it, but that's not up to you or me to decide if you were doing it right and wrong.

It's the person that's looking at your application.

So you just have to hope that you get the person that looks at your application.

It's like, all right, well, yeah, he posts content, but, you know, I actually like this content.

Or he's never gone too far.

He's not posting videos online.

He's making good decisions.

He's not commenting back and clapping back at people and making people look bad.

So there's definitely a way to do it.

But it does have the potential to hurt you.

You, which is interesting.

I have definitely tailored back the content that I make around flying.

Yeah.

Since I got my job, I, you know, there are some airlines that are very pro influencers.

I might not work at that right now, but I definitely view my job as more important than posting a reel of me being a first officer or touching buttons or showing the delivery or showing me my uniform.

There's other ways that you can create content and then not.

Not also look like what some people think of as like a tool or a d bag.

Not saying you or anyone does.

But yeah, unfortunately, the people that don't like the influencers, that's the first word that comes to their mouth.

Oh, for sure.

No, I'm very aware of it.

And that's, you know, it's always been on my mind and I'm always trying to think of, you know, am I doing this right?

Should I keep doing this?

But, yeah, I don't know.

What are some of the cool opportunities that you mentioned that, you know, doing this has provided for you?

Yeah, I mean, for one, the biggest thing is getting me my job at my flight school.

You know, it's hard.

When I, when I finish flight school, I'm seeing all these guys I worked with and they're struggling to find a job and have loan payments starting and all.

And, you know, a tough scenario.

And strictly because I was posting on social media and had my small little presence that I do and met one of my buddies, he was.

He got hired at the school, he put me in touch, he got me an interview there.

And eventually, you know, now that I was able to be at this school, and now I'm the chief pilot or instructor at our school.

So, you know, that all came from social media.

So that's probably the biggest one.

And then just, you know, being in touch with other people who have flown at other companies and them being Willing to share information which you could go just DM people on LinkedIn and do the same thing.

But I think, you know, in general, when people see some of my content and me not just trying to say, hey, look at how sick my life is and that I'm doing this, but that I'm all that, I also try to help people out who are behind me or who are where I was a year ago.

I think people appreciate that and want to help me out too.

So I don't know, there's just other connections that I feel like maybe haven't gotten me a job right now or anything like that, but I feel like that are beneficial and good relationships to have going forward.

Absolutely.

And you can find mentors through this as well.

Yeah, definitely.

People that have helped me out just ask questions.

Especially when I was debating if I wanted to go 91k versus 121.

You know, I had a lot of 121 friends that for the longest time were like, dude, you're working way too hard.

You need to come to the airlines.

And I was like, no, it's great, it's great.

But when the time came for me, ask the questions.

They're all there to answer them.

So, yeah, friendships that can definitely help you out and create mentors.

Yeah.

You mentioned that you're a chief at your current flight instructor job.

What does does that look like?

We never knows what a chief is, what a chief pilot can do.

But specifically for what you do, what is like the day in the life of a chief pilot at a flight school look like?

It's nothing crazy.

I mean, we're a pretty small school.

We've got like nine archers and then a few other planes.

It's really the same responsibilities and then just a bunch of other random, random tasks.

So anything from event planning, coordinating maintenance, when an instructor has an issue and they're stranded somewhere, coordinating how we're going to help them, updating the GPSs on the plane, developing syllabi for our students, making sure our operating procedures are good.

One thing we recently implemented is we require all private students now at our school to do a uprt flight before they can get signed off for a checkride.

So, you know, it's kind of my responsibility to help make sure our students are being taken care of.

The right students are with the right instructors.

You know, kind of those are just a few of the.

A few of the tasks.

I feel like it's very broad and just random extra tasks that are happening and then obviously conducting the mock check rides and Stage checks and those kinds of things.

And then.

Yeah, so that's kind of some of the things.

It's not.

It's not insane, but it's definitely more work.

Yeah.

What would you say is the biggest lesson?

It could be a good lesson or bad lesson that you've learned in your career so far.

Flat flying.

Oh, biggest lesson that I've learned while flying.

You know, without having given previous thought to that, I. I would just say it's kind of has to do with relationships that you.

I feel like I would have made a better.

I feel like I should have made a better effort in flight school to make more relationships with more people.

Just like you said so much, if not everything in aviation is who.

You know, that's with a lot of industries, but especially in aviation, how small it is to really make a good effort to not focus so much on yourself, but how you can help others and we can all move on to the next thing.

I guess kind of what I'm trying to say is just build those relationships and be friendly to whoever it is around you, whether it's a student, an instructor, somebody you rent from, somebody who works at the airport, the fueler, really anything.

And just to, you know, and not.

Not make good relationships to benefit you one day.

But just because it's a small industry and you know, your name will be.

It's.

It's very easy to run it, run back into people who you don't think you would have down the road.

So I think it's just super important that you build a good reputation around your name.

So I don't know.

That's kind of what comes to my mind.

I highly recommend that.

That's.

That's a great thing to do, and it's tough to do because there's so many times where you just get locked in.

You're like, I need to do this fight.

I need to do that.

I mean, maybe there's like, what's up, dude?

Nice to see you.

Like, I've seen you before.

I'll wave.

But, like, you know, it's not going to kill you to be like, oh, dude, how's your training going?

What's going on with you is like, can we study together?

Can you.

Can I learn from you?

Can you learn from me?

You know, having those relationships and almost, I like to say from football, it's called trauma bonding.

Right?

Like, there is just this opportunity for you guys to go through this experience together, and you're gonna be friends for life.

Right?

Like, you go through the same experiences you Go through the stresses together.

It just creates a bond and friendship for life.

So I definitely think that's a good thing to do for anyone that's listening and is going through that process like it's a grind.

Absolutely.

But it does not have to be a grind alone.

You can kind of go through the grind together with someone else.

For sure.

Yeah.

I think the few people that I, that I bonded with it at ATP, you know, still have relationships with them and it's fun to see where we're all going now and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What, what's been.

Two part question.

What's been your favorite flight and what's been either like the scariest or worst flight you've done so far?

Oh, I'll start with the scariest or I, I don't know.

Yeah, worst.

Maybe I kind of have two for that.

First one is, you know, I was flying with my dad and my brother just in little single engine.

Archer.

We flew out kind of by the Uintas in the.

In Utah, landed, and then we needed to fly back to Provo.

And on our way back, I realized I was probably going to land just after night.

So I needed my night currency, which I think I needed two or all three landings.

So he stopped at a little airport, middle of nowhere.

They jumped out of the plane.

I did my three laps to get night current.

Got some, yeah.

Anyway, and then they hopped back in the plane.

And when they hopped back in the plane, you know, I was like, okay, I guess I'll pull out the checklist, do the run up for like the third time.

Everything's been looking fine, you know, set the mixture, do the whole thing.

But I'm so glad I did and didn't skip over the checklist, even though I had been flying that plane for the past three hours because the alternator had failed at that point.

And in that plane there was no standby attitude indicator.

So and we were going to be over the mountains, pretty much mountainous terrain, and we were in the boonies.

And the moon, the phase of the moon was the lowest light during that month.

So we pretty much.

I would have been with my dad and brother over mountainous terrain with no avionics, no attitude indicator, because we were a couple hours away.

So, you know, the battery would have gone out too, you know, with no attitude indicator.

So that was not very fun.

And I'll just keep it to that one.

And then probably the best flight.

I don't know.

I mean, I feel like there's so many flying that Super Cub super low to the ground is super fun.

And then also probably just going with my wife, you know, taking her up, having her fly the plane, flying around at sunset, around the mountains in Utah, flying through the canyons and whatnot.

It's just, it's unbelievable, you know?

Yep.

So I don't know, probably just every time I fly with my wife is a pretty good time.

That's awesome.

I will say kudos to you for actually stopping to do your landings because I feel that might be a good interview story for you to tell people because there are a lot of people that just would have flown.

It's been like, screw it.

But you never know when the FAA guy's going to be there, whoever may be.

But that takes.

That's awesome that you did that because not everyone would do that.

Yeah.

And then second, the question is, is what does your wife think about aviation?

Does she think it's all cool?

Does she love it?

Or is she fully kind of under.

Does she understood, understand what it might look like in the future when you do get on with a regional, you do get on with 135 carrier and you know, Luke's not here as much anymore.

Luke is now gone for seven days at a time or Luke is on a five day trip.

Has she kind of.

Does she understand what the future does actually look like?

She does.

At first when I brought it up that I was going to become a pilot, you know, she was like, not about it at all.

You know, you're going to be gone half the time, you know, she, she just did not like the idea of it.

As she's chatted more with my sister again, who her, my sister's husband is, flies for Delta.

She, you know, started to think, okay, it's not too bad.

Like he's actually around more, a little bit more than I thought.

And you know, they have a pretty good life and they're comfortable and, and all that.

I think she's totally aware of it.

And I've tried to, you know, tell her like, we are going to move.

It's almost a guarantee that at some point we're gonna move.

We might have to go move out to wherever, somewhere that's not here.

Our little bubble with our family and the mountains and all our hobbies here in Utah.

Yeah.

So I think she's aware of that.

But I think as she's worked her corporate job now for just over a month, I think she's super happy for me that I actually enjoy, you know, doing it.

And it's not gonna be the mundane nine to five every day Day in, day out.

So.

And then, you know, my dad and her dad both have traveled a good amount.

I mean, she grew up with her dad being gone Monday through Friday in a different state working, and he was home on the weekends.

So she's like, you know, if you can be home for three days and you're home and you're not stressed about work, that, you know, I'll take it.

So I think she's.

She's good with it.

Now.

That's one of the best things about aviation is, yeah, you can be gone, and there are going to be times in your life where you're going to be gone more than others, but there is a time where you're going to be more senior.

You're going to have the opportunity to be home more and see not necessarily more, but see different things than what someone working a 9 to 5.

You know, you can go to lunch with your kids, you can pick your kids up every day, be at almost all the baseball practices, but you might miss some games.

You might miss this.

Yeah, it gives you the opportunity to be home more sometimes, but you could make less.

Like, you got to kind of figure out what is more important to you.

But.

And you can also find time.

A lot of people have side hustles with this, too.

So the great part about new pilot is when you come home, like you said, you don't think about a thing like that.

Landing, boom, gone.

I'm home now.

I'm in dad mode.

I'm in husband mode.

That's it.

Side hustle, wife, kid, whatever it might be.

Or, you know, you can play video games.

I don't know why some people do that, too, but there's so much that you can do with being a pilot.

Yeah, that's why I have a podcast.

My wife is like, my husband is not playing video games.

I could be a Twitch streamer.

I'd make tons.

Yeah, there you go.

But here I am.

Yeah.

So, yeah.

But yeah, it's.

It can definitely be a grind, but every season just know is temporary.

You know, some might be harder than others, but it's going to be temporary.

It's going to pass, and it's going to get better.

So, yeah, that's pretty much all I got for you, man.

Luke, I appreciate coming on.

It's been fun to talk to you and hear your story, where you are, and I hope Delta comes true, and I hope that that's where you end up when we talk again in the next.

I don't know, hopefully before five years or 10 years.

But hopefully one day I'll see you with a double breasted and forced mandatory hat that you have to wear.

Yeah, we'll see.

Dude, thanks.

Thanks so much for having me on.

I really appreciate it and you know, love your podcast.

Thankful for, for what you do.

I've been listening for a long time, so thanks a ton.

Thanks man.

Yeah, anytime.

I appreciate it and I hope you have a good one.

All right, you too.

That is a wrap on episode 349.

We are so close to 300.

150 episodes.

Insane.

Just the fact that there's 350 episodes, maybe 350 hours of me talking and you listening is crazy because I know I would probably turn myself down and turn myself off.

So I really appreciate that.

Thank you so much for anyone that has bought the magazine.

Hopefully by the time you are listening to this, you have it in your hand.

As I mentioned on Instagram, there is a massive shipping delay.

You know, it's kind of promising things from shipping and none of them have come true.

And it's gotten to the point where I've just asked for them to ship me all of the magazines.

They helped me ship out the first 100 which they were able to do and all the other orders are going to be on me.

So hopefully you received that first shipment.

And if not, just know that I am currently waiting on all of the magazines so then I can ship them myself, which I will do as soon as I get them to the first thing I do.

I'm going to pack them all.

I'm going to try to take them wherever, ship them out and try to expedite it depending on how expensive it is.

Cuz holy smokes.

I looked at shipping and and I know people probably think the price is expensive for the magazine, but it's like, do I have to raise my prices?

Because holy tamoli, shipping is expensive.

But that's not your problem.

That is my problem.

And I thank everyone for buying the magazine.

Please, when you get it, show it off.

Tag me on Instagram.

I will repost everyone that posts anything about the magazine because it's the best magazine I've ever seen and I say that because I created it, so I'm definitely biased.

But it's great and the content's great to so AV Nation, I hope you're having a great day and as always, happy flying.