Foreign.

Hello and welcome to beyond the.

Desk, the podcast where I take a deep dive into the careers of some of the most influential and inspiring leaders in the technology transformation and operations space within global insurance and Insurtech.

I'm your host, Mark Thomas, and every week I'll be sitting down with industry trailblazers who are driving innovation and modernization within the insurance sector.

We'll explore their personal journeys, from their early backgrounds and the pivotal moments that shape their careers to the challenges they've had to overcome, the lessons they've learned along the way, and of course, the big wins that have defined their professional journey so far.

But it's not just about their successes.

It's about what you and I can take away from their experiences and the advice they have for anyone wanting to follow in similar footsteps.

Whether you're just starting out or looking.

To level up your career in the insurance or insuretech world, this podcast is packed with valuable insights and inspiration.

So grab your headphones, get comfortable, and let's jump into beyond the Desk.

Matt, welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

Yeah, I'm good, thank you.

How are you?

You good?

Good stuff?

Yeah, yeah, really good, thanks.

We're recording this first week of Jan, so Happy New Year.

I don't know when it will probably go out for a few weeks yet, but look, great to have you on the podcast and I always start with kind of.

Eventually we'll go all the way back to the start of your career and stuff, but as a kind of quick intro, introduce yourself, bit of background and then we'll go back from there.

Originally from up north, so from Doncaster in South Yorkshire.

You know, I'll talk about a little bit about this later on.

So the move to London for me was, you know, quite a big cultural change certainly.

But yeah, you know, grew up, went to school there, then I went off to university in newcomer Newcastle and then when I came out of university went into a banking grad program.

Started off in retail banking and at that point in time more in customer facing roles and tech roles.

I didn't really have a particular draw to tech in early life, didn't do a computer science degree or anything like that.

So really my interest in tech came more over time and more organically.

So did various roles in the retail banking space within that employer via a grad rotation.

And then as I touched on before, made the leap to come to London and join the insurance market about.

Well, it's about 13 years ago now and it's been a really good move since then.

I've Sort of pivoted more towards those technical roles, grown organically more in that direction.

In part driven by the way that tech has evolved and emerged over that time, but I think also just driven by career opportunities and things that have really come up along the way.

Really going back to the growing up bit, like I say, wasn't really a techie growing up, was more into sport.

That was really a thing.

I was pretty good at a lot of things, but not good enough at anything to make anything of it.

So that's really why I ended up in that career in sort of financial services.

In it, yeah.

And current role.

Current role.

So I work for a company called Phoenix Group.

I often say to people, one of the biggest companies you might never have heard of actually, you know, FTSE 100 company or close to the FTSE 50 now.

But Phoenix has been an acquisitional business historically.

So things like Standard life reassure brands from a life and pensions point of view are actually owned by Phoenix.

So, you know, you may even have a pension with Phoenix Group and you may not know it.

And again, it's, you know, obviously, obviously still an insurance company as such, but in a different sector to where I was previously, which was more in the PNC London market space.

Okay, cool.

So let's go right back to the start.

And you touched on it briefly.

So grew up in Doncaster.

I think you mentioned then briefly that you weren't really into tech or anything like that.

And I know we've spoke about it before, about your career.

It was not really kind of very heavily and tech, we're definitely getting to that.

But talk to me a little bit about what the kind of university days looked like, what the, what the plan was at that point and then kind of where it went from there.

Yeah, no, I mean, I think, you know, when I was at school and I think a lot of this comes back to, you know, friends, family and things like that, you know.

You know, my mum and dad are still, I won't say technophobes, that's harsh.

You know, they're still a bit more into it now, but we just weren't really a very technology centric family.

And I think that sort of, you know, rubs off on you a little bit.

But yeah, school I say quite a lot of time spent on sport.

And when I actually picked university, picked Newcastle, a lot of it was driven by wanting to stay in the north of England.

You know, that was a driver for me at that point in time.

I'll talk a little bit about how that's maybe changed as things have evolved.

But really a lot of it was driven by social aspects.

My kids are both looking at universities at the moment and I find it quite interesting that they're looking at courses and going into all this detail.

For me it was more of the social aspects and a lot of the sources.

The course side of things was secondary and I guess I sort of found my way into financial services really over time.

In part.

It's quite an obvious career path.

I think when you've done.

I did an economics and accountancy degree, sort of fell in that direction.

I've never really used my accountancy degree in particular.

For me I think it's just being open minded and looking at what opportunities are out there and, you know, really following fate, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I can totally resonate with that.

I mean I was quite big into sport and I went to uni and did sport at uni, but.

And that was the kind of main driver for me, the social part.

The degree was kind of almost a secondary one.

But that's interesting you say about kids actually kind of now, because you're not the first person that said that to me.

I think kids now are probably a little bit more into the detail of kind of courses and stuff like that, whereas possibly not always the way in the past.

So banking straight after, did you go into kind of like a grad scheme type thing or something like that?

Is that how you.

Yeah, exactly that.

And it was one of those grad schemes where we didn't rotate around business areas really.

It was like literally you had an induction and then you were doing a job on like your second week.

But I really enjoyed that because, you know, I was on the phone to customers dealing with escalations and complaints right from the start.

And I think, you know, a lot of the roles I had, you know, in banking, which were customer facing, set me up in good stead in terms of appreciating the customer side of it, thinking about the technology side of it.

But I think it really laid a great foundation for me in terms of what was important and what you needed to be successful.

So what was that role?

What were those first early roles that you did?

Well, the bank was Northern Rock as well, I should say at some point.

I'll come into that a little bit because it's one of the challenges I'll speak about later on.

But yeah, I worked in some roles then, predominantly in the savings function at Northern Rock.

Like I say, initially it was around, you know, customer calls, customer complaints, you know, dealing with A lot of that sort of thing.

Did various other roles, a bit more around tech and imaging.

Also did some stuff around deposits processing.

And I'll talk a little bit about this more maybe later on, but when the run on the bank with Northern Rock happened, my role was actually running the function that dealt with all the deposits and withdrawals from head office accounts at Northern Rock.

So that was a pretty frantic few weeks and months, it's fair to say.

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about a little bit about that now then because I kind of, I feel like I know a bit about the Northern Rock thing from, from the news.

I'm not sure if I was.

I mean it may have been around when I first started working, so.

But I don't know, I don't know in detail.

Was it Virgin something?

Yeah, something to do with that.

So, so what happened is, you know, the, you know, the kind of crisis situation happened with Northern Rock and you know, the government stepped in and out fund it and then was that off.

The back of the kind of credit crunch era, was it not associated?

Yeah, not exactly that.

And so Northern Rock's business model was it basically raised, raise capital, raise funding on the securitization market.

And so its savings book was relatively small in relation to its mortgage book.

So when that credit crunch kicked in, that securitization funding wasn't there anymore.

It basically meant that a business model that a bank had just couldn't really be sustained at that point in time.

So I said the government stepped in and I did some really interesting work at that point in time it was really difficult work, really challenging work where we kind of separated the bank into two parts.

At the time it was known as the good bank and the bad bank because there was various mortgages that got hived off to a company money called UK Asset Resolution.

And then it, Virgin Money acquired what was, you know, called the good bank at the time, which was, you know, that side of it which was, you know, the savings book, elements of the mortgage book.

And so, you know.

Yeah, I then became an employee of Virgin Money, you know, as part of that.

So.

Yeah.

So at what point throughout the.

So did you, did you do those kind of more business related roles for a long time or.

And when did that kind of start to transition into, to more kind of strategic tech kind of because you were more in the business analysis kind of business architecture, space.

That was the kind of evolution, wasn't it?

Yeah, no, so I did maybe five or six years in like I say, more people management, customer facing roles and then when a lot of the, you know, I guess the, you know, the difficult situation happened there, I then got involved more in the change and transformation side of it.

So we did a lot of the project delivery work, you know, when we did the stuff where we, you know, kind of split the bank and, you know, I was involved in a lot of that work, which was when I really started pivoting away from those customer facing roles and then into that.

So it was like a business architecture role effectively.

Although I did do a bit of delivery management as part of that.

And then the flip from when I left Virgin Money and came down to London and joined Catlin at the time, that was as an enterprise business architect.

So that was the initial pivot into insurance.

Yeah.

Okay, cool.

And so where is that?

You mean in regards to kind of that architecture, business architecture role?

Did you kind of actively seek to kind of do that type of role?

Was that, how did that evolve?

I guess I'm trying to understand how that, that kind of you got to that point.

It seems to be quite a change from what you were doing before.

Yeah, no, and I think it was me being somewhat opportunistic in the sense that we had, you know, a load of consultants came in to help us deliver this, you know, big change program.

There was quite a lot of people who'd previously been at Barclays who came in either on fixed term contracts or, you know, or as contractors to support a lot of the, you know, the sort of complex work that was being done.

And I was one of the permanent people who was involved in that.

And we had a couple of people who came in and helped do a lot of the operating model design, process design.

And I just found it really interesting.

So I just organically moved towards that.

And then as opportunities came up to move in that direction, I just sort of jumped on them really, and thought, this is something I'm interested in.

I think I'm pretty good at it as well.

And that's really how the involvement came about.

Okay, and so first role in insurance?

Yeah, so it was an enterprise business architect at Catlin.

So obviously Catlin isn't there anymore and Catlin became XL Catlin and then XL Catlin became Axaxel.

So, you know, that had quite a bit of M and A type activity.

Were you there throughout all of those transitions?

I was there throughout all of those transitions, yeah.

So, you know, when I joined Catlin, I think it was just under a thousand people.

Obviously it started off under Steven Catlin's leadership as a, you know, Predominantly well, as a London market insurer and became a global organization.

And then when I left, when it was AXA XL, you know, I think, I mean 160, 180,000 people working at AXA.

So you know, very, very different organization.

You know, both really, you know, interesting organization, shall we say, but very different.

So yeah, and so, and how did your, so how did your role evolve throughout that period then?

And, and because I'm interested like you obviously focus more so on the kind of cloud space in more recent years.

So I'm really interested to understand how that went from kind of customer facing roles to, to what is in essence quite technical focus roles and how that evolution kind of happened, came about what it looked like.

Yeah, and I think I've probably maybe planned one step ahead, maybe two steps ahead at points in time, but it's just been like I say, more of an organic growth thing.

And like I say, I was in the architecture team in the enterprise architecture team at Catlin and started off as a business architect, but then did get involved in some of the more technical architecture topics around data applications, et cetera.

And then the opportunity came up to, to run our solution architecture function.

So sort of asked if I wanted to do that and I'm there like, yeah, why not, you know, give that a go.

So did that for a period of time and then that obviously meant I was more involved on the application architecture side of things rather than business.

So that was maybe a bit of a segue into a more technical role.

What happened after that is a maternity cover position became available on our, on our IT lead team.

The CIO at the time asked me if I was interested in doing it and that was doing something, something completely different.

So that was doing IT procurement, release management, change management.

So you know, almost the opposite end of the spectrum to architecture in many respects.

So he said, would, you know, would you like to take that role on?

And I'm there like, well, yeah, why not?

You know, I'll give it a try.

It's something interesting, it's a stretch for me and a lot of that really when I talk about that next step role, you know, my goal for some time has been to get to that sort of cto, CIO type role.

So I was really trying to develop that rounded experience in different types of roles in it.

You know, as that came about, whilst I was doing that role that was focused on IT, procurement, et cetera, cloud, DevOps, agile were really starting to emerge as significant topics.

Obviously banks and other tech companies had been adopting them for a couple of years already.

But that's when they started to become a lot more prevalent for insurance companies.

And again it was, I really, I guess saw an opportunity, stepped into it, took some things on really as extra responsibilities as side of desk and that then really turned into a permanent role that was focused on cloud.

I always do say though, cloud isn't just about cloud.

I think for me it's all about the supporting capabilities around it because otherwise it is just doing data centers in a different way.

So I think for me a lot of that has to come with the working practices.

Cloud is a software defined data center effectively.

So I think it's just really making sure that you can get the value from that.

So it's the working practices that go with that, the enablement, the working with key parties like security, data protection to make sure that, you know, the business can really benefit from cloud in the way that it needs to.

Yeah, yeah, let's touch, let's go into that a bit more detail on that though.

So because I think I'm ultimately a tech recruiter by trade.

So I've said the cloud, cloud stuff's been around for a while.

It seems like now it's kind of widely adopted as the kind of the standard way of doing things.

But is there still a way to go around like kind of the adoption of that slightly more deeper way of thinking around processes and stuff like that?

Where do you think you mean?

Because obviously you've now seen it in two different, kind of semi similar industries, but also I guess some different differences as well.

Yeah, and I think it varies a little bit by organization on the type of workload.

So I think net new things.

So if we're looking at digital capabilities, we're looking at anything AI related.

I think that's the first AI check.

I'm sure there'll be more before the end of the session.

It kind of has to be in the cloud and I think people that's what's happening and I think you're right.

I think there is adoption of those capabilities and recognition that that is really the to do those things.

I think where there's still challenges, I think across the piece and I think this exists even in companies that have been using cloud for 10 years.

Some of those legacy workloads as 400 mainframe type stuff, yes you can move them to cloud, but are they cost effective?

Are they resilient?

Do you want to spend the money to move them there?

So it's really that balance between where companies that have got a history on premise, how long do they keep that running for?

How do they manage that?

And I think a lot of companies have still got a strategy where they do have an on premise footprint for certain workloads, predominantly driven by cost regulation, those sorts of things.

But there's a clear preference to leverage cloud as much as possible, wherever we can.

The only thing that's coming in a little bit with AI, though, and cost has always been a focus with cloud, because cloud is great, the austerity is brilliant, but it also means you can spend money really, really quickly.

So the cost control aspect is important.

But if I look at things like AI, data analytics capabilities as an example, they're very hungry.

It starts to pull on things like environmental impact because you're pooling and using so many resources.

So there's some considerations that are coming in as we're starting to use huge amounts of tech and huge amounts of capacity in the cloud.

So it's not without its challenges.

Still.

There's still food for thought there on that AI piece.

Then when you say they're hungry, as in hungry for capacity in cloud.

And so what are the considerations there for businesses as they.

Because obviously where we're at with AI at the moment, if we're talking 12 months down the line, it's going to be like, who knows what we'll be talking about in that sense.

So what are the considerations and what are the kind of potential snags for something in that kind of arena?

Yeah, so I think the two things I see is, I think there's this temptation to almost use AI for everything.

That's probably the first thing.

And it's really good for some things and it's maybe not so good for others.

And to your point, that'll evolve and I'm sure it'll become good for other things in the future.

But I think there's this temptation to use it as like a quick fix, which isn't necessarily a quick fix for everything.

So I think you do have to think carefully about the use cases and also because that there is that impact on humans and their jobs as well.

I think it's just using it considerately and taking into account your workforce and the impact it might have on them.

You'll hear from the big AI companies when they're selling the benefits to us.

They'll talk about, oh, it makes people's lives better, they don't have to do menial tasks.

But what CFOs are going to want to see is how much money can I save with this technology that's what's going to drive it.

So I think that's point one, I think being considerate about where we use it.

But point two is it's almost sometimes how you're parameterizing your models and how you're building them out because the temptation is you can just pull in like all the data in the world basically.

But is that adding value?

So I think it's just making sure that you're doing that in the right way to ensure that there's an efficiency angle to it as well.

Because a lot of data is great, but how much of the data is adding value to the actual LLM or model or whatever that you've actually built to support what you're doing?

From taking that into a cloud perspective, is that, is the consideration there that you're actually putting in loads of data, you're storing that stuff and actually a whole load of it is potentially a very little use.

Potentially.

Yeah, exactly.

And you know, while storage is pretty cheap in the cloud, it still costs something and if you've got a compute to move that around as well, there's still a cost associated with that.

So I think it's just, you know, it's the same as any technology solution.

And I think, you know, you know, there's, there's so much data around at the moment in general that, you know, I think the temptation becomes to just, you know, get the biggest data set possible.

So yeah, and what's your kind of view on.

On where you mean, I appreciate that you spent the last most recent time outside of the London market, but what's your kind of view that you see around the market?

On.

On where that kind of impact, especially from a cloud perspective with AI, where, where do you see the, the kind of challenges coming over the, over the next kind of 12, 18 months or so?

I mean, I think it's going to be the same as adoption of any sort of newish technology really.

I think it's going to be the, you know, the compliance it for one, in terms of making sure that the relevant things are managed, the regulatory aspect of it as well, in terms of how it's being managed and where the data's going and what it's going to be about.

But I think probably most importantly it's the people side of it.

I touched on the right use cases before.

I think it's making sure that we're using it in the right way to I guess, build that employee experience, build that customer experience.

And it's not just being used as tech for the sake of tech.

I think that's the piece that I think will be one that we have to tackle.

So it's nothing new or unique.

Unique for AI compared to any other technology solution, really.

I think there'll obviously be a few things that are a bit, you know, bit niche to AI, but it's really the same considerations that you would have, you know, for anything.

Yeah, yeah, okay, interesting.

So obviously did a long stint, then in, in.

In kind of one stroke, three companies, whichever way you look at it, and then, and then more recently made the decision to, to kind of flip over to the life and pension side.

So, so talk, talk us through kind of what that, what that looked like, why you made that decision, and then we can go into a bit more detail about how it's been.

Yeah, and I mean, again, being frank, it wasn't one that had loads of thought, really.

It was a case of looking for a new role.

It came up, had a really good connection with the recruiting manager.

The role sounded really interesting.

It was something that I could add value to.

What was the role initially?

So it was a group head of cloud role that really encompassed everything from technical architecture, engineering through to the operational management of all the cloud cloud services.

So that concept of really running cloud as a product, as a platform, you know, rather than having, you know, separate ops teams and, you know, separate, separate engineering teams.

So now it appealed to me and I think, yeah, again, going and working in a different industry, in a different sector, you know, like I say, you know, you know, I think, you know, PNC and insurance, London market is, you know, is great, but I think, you know, again, it's, you know, going and seeing what else is out there, really.

And, you know, you know, as I've already touched on already, I think for me it's.

There's an element of, you know, be brave, take a chance.

You know, more often than not, it'll work out, you'll learn something new, you'll meet some new people and it'll help you develop as an individual and how.

Have you found it?

And I'd be really interested to kind of understand the differences, if there have been any.

Yeah, no, and I think there's a difference in terms of.

So the London market itself is quite unique in terms of that sort of square, half a mile and that sort of ecosystem that exists.

And the broker, carrier relationship, Lloyds of London relationship and all of that, that doesn't really translate and transcend into life and pensions, but almost everything else does, to be honest with you.

You know, there's A similar sort of dynamic between a lot of the organizations that are out there.

Similar challenges in terms of tech disruption, the people side of it in source, the outsourced challenges.

So beyond that London market bit, there's a lot of similarities there.

Like I say, the tech disruption regulation piece in particular and the, the desire for that digitization and that online customer journey.

I guess pensions is a little bit different and I guess it's somewhat like, you know, big, big policy insurance in that people don't go online and look at their pension every day and don't look at their annuity policy every day.

Well, some people do, but you know, the vast majority of people don't.

So it's not quite as transactional as banking or even as insurance, really.

Long term.

Yeah, it's a bit more long term.

But you know, I think the, obviously the desire is to, you know, there's a project going on at the moment called Pensions Dashboard, which is a government initiative which is to give people that visibility of what pensions holdings they have.

And I think one of the things that really resonates me about Phoenix and what Phoenix is about is everyone wants to retire, everyone wants to have those good later years in life.

So for me, the goal that the organization have is to make sure that people can retire and have a really good quality of life at retirement.

I actually think really resonates with me in terms of something that is actually societally adding quite a lot of value.

So yeah, yeah, it's interesting actually because I mean I always, and I'll ask it to you at the end, but the.

I always ask people what kind of what they love about insurance and the overarching thing about people who work in kind of PNC or general insurance or anything like that is that.

Or the most common answer is something along the lines of the fact that it's there for people in their kind of time of need or whatever it may be, which kind of really resonates with me.

And actually I always say insurance does a really bad job of selling.

I mean, it's got a bad rep in a lot of areas.

But actually if they really kind of bottled that sales pitch up and managed to market it a bit better, it does a hell of a lot of good.

We're right slap banging the kind of LA fires and stuff like that that happen in early Jan now.

Yeah, if it wasn't for insurance, there'd be a hell of a lot of people and businesses that are in a whole load of trouble right now.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I guess it's slightly different with life and pensions, isn't it?

It kind of, they're not.

Well, I suppose it's not on the life side that, that kind of solves a problem for people when the worst thing happens to a family member or whatever it might be.

But certainly on the pensions and annuities side that I've never really thought about it like that.

It's actually kind of making sure that people are in a, a good spot.

Not necessarily when they kind of urgently need help, but, but they're in the, in their kind of final years, they can actually enjoy a bit of life and work kind of stuff.

So there's a, there's a, there's, there's a kind of.

Yeah, exactly.

And a lot of it is about, I don't want to say customer education, but it's awareness really in terms of what are the things you can do and the little things you can do to make those retirement years more comfortable.

What are the things that you can put in place to help with that?

And again, there's a lot of focus on things like vulnerable customers and how we make that work.

But what tends to happen, it's a bit of a microcosm of all financial services in that the wealthy are served very, very well, they're well educated, they have good plans and policies in place to support them.

But you know, it's the, you know, the, you know, the everyday person who maybe doesn't have that, you know, in place.

So.

And I think, you know, that's what companies like Phoenix are trying to change in terms of promoting that and, you know, helping people to be, to make better decisions and more informed decisions for them so they can achieve their life goals ultimately.

So.

Yeah.

Is that, is that kind of the, like since, since you've, you've been there a couple of years now from a, from a kind of the big stuff that's going on.

Like my, my knowledge of the life and pension space is a lot more limited than the insurance side things.

So like in London market blueprint too and kind of modernization and all that kind of stuff is like front and center from a tech perspective.

And now probably AI.

What are the big, Is that the kind of big deal things in LNP now?

Yeah, I mean there are a few, you know, sort of big, you know, regulatory pieces going on.

You know, I touched on pensions dashboard before being one of them, but you know, that we did.

You know, there's been work on vulnerable customer before.

There's other initiatives like that that are out there again.

They're A little bit different to things like Blueprint 2, because Blueprint 2, the London market is that sort of slightly unique ecosystem, but then beyond that, I mean, I've touched on this before.

Phoenix historically has been quite an acquisitional organization in terms of how it's operated.

It's now a go to market business.

So it is selling products, it's not just consolidating back books, it's selling products too.

So that means there's capability build out there.

So there's quite a lot of focus on that as well.

So there's a number of different areas.

It's a pretty diverse, diverse, you know, range of, you know, projects and changes going on, to be honest with you.

Yeah, but a lot of them are along the same themes as what we're seeing insurance in terms of the type of technology, the types of solutions.

So.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, cool.

So I wanted to kind of take that on to kind of some of the, the, the kind of learnings you've had from your career.

One of the, the kind of themes that I think is like really interesting about your, your career is, is the, is that kind of fairly drastic change from heavy business focus, not a technical background, moving in and transitioning to that.

So what are the things that you've, you've kind of learned and like the key takeaways you've got that.

Because I'm, I guess what I'm thinking now is if the listener who is, who is maybe done a business degree, done a little bit of those types of roles, maybe in insurance, maybe in banking, and wants to make a transition into something that's possibly a little bit more innovative, a bit more technology focused, etc.

Etc.

Etc.

How, how did you, you mean any advice or like what are the learnings you've had from, from kind of doing that, taking on that journey?

I think there's a couple of things, right.

I think, I think the first thing is you have to sort of invest in your own learning and development.

So I've probably been less good at this in recent years.

I probably shouldn't admit to that out loud, but historically I've, you know, gone out, read a lot, researched a lot, done qualifications, you know, done things off my own back to learn, you know, and develop my understanding of how things happen.

So I think, you know, no one else is going of your career and your personal growth.

So if there's something you're interested in, go and find out about it, ask people questions and take that forward on your own.

I think the second thing it really is good practices in management and leadership are no different in more technical roles than they are in more business facing roles.

There's so much in terms of transferability and I think in all of the roles that I've been in over the years, the key to success is good operation within teams, across teams, really clear and strong communication.

Even if that communication isn't necessarily good news or bad news, it's just been really clear about that.

So all of those messages regarding of the sort of role you're in and ways of working are kind of the same really.

And I think the thing that I found is probably maybe there's more emphasis on the people management side outside of technology.

I think if you can go into an IT role and you can have emphasis on that people management side, you know, you listen to people, you help coach them and develop them, I think it means you can be really successful.

So I think there's an element of thinking about what you're good at and what you can bring to the party.

But yeah, go out there and absorb the information that's out there.

You know, learn, read, ask questions.

Like I say, be inquisitive, be curious and I think that'll stand you in really good stead.

It's interesting you say about the managerial thing, are there any different?

Because I guess now you're managing technical people people.

Yeah, in the past you were, you were not managing technical people.

So what are some of the challenges or the, or the kind of differences that you found in, in having to do that?

Or are they or, or are they actually limited?

So, so I think there are some differences but a lot of it comes down to I think on when you're managing technical people, I think they want you to have a level of understanding of what they're doing now.

They don't want you to be the expert, they don't want you to come and take over for them.

But you at least need to be able to and understand what they're going through and be able to do that.

I guess the same if you're in a contact center role or in a business role, you would still need to have a level of technical knowledge about the role that was being done, even if it wasn't about technology.

But I think technology people, I think if you're a leader or a manager who doesn't understand their role and what they're doing, I think sometimes it's more difficult to get people on side and aligned.

And I think that's where I think you have to have a level of knowledge Yourself, but I'm not a techie.

I got broad, shallow knowledge rather than any, you know, real, you know, deep areas of understanding on anything particular.

So can turn my hand to a lots of different things.

But I, you know, I don't have deep knowledge on, you know, any topics really.

That's why I have, you know, engineers and really good technical people in my team, you know, to worry about that and do that on my behalf.

Really?

How have you found kind of, Bridget, because I think that's a, that's a really interesting point in the fact that you're not a deep technical expert and therefore you're not going to be able to critique what a cloud engineer or something like that does.

But how have you managed to kind of bridge that gap from someone who didn't really know probably anything 10, 15, 20 years ago, whenever it was that about any specific tech, to now having enough knowledge to be able to challenge and manage those people and kind of actually get the job done without necessarily knowing the deep technical stuff?

Yeah, and I mean, I think part of the answer is what I said before in terms of having that education, yourself being well read, understanding things.

Things.

I think one of the other things that's really valuable for me is that sort of peer network.

So I think understanding what other people are doing, what's going to work and what's not going to work.

But I think a lot of it is just about good rigor, good process, the right controls in how things are done.

Because, yeah, you're right, you know, I can't necessarily go in and critique someone's code quality and, you know, and validate that.

But I think a lot of it then comes down to judgment calls as a manager and how you're working with people, you know, working with people that you trust who and know what you're going to do.

And I think that becomes your kind of superpower, in a way, is having that team around that you can trust.

Trust knowing that whilst you might not be able to do a detailed review on your work, you know, you can read their body language, you can read the signals and you know, whether things are okay or they're not okay.

Off the back of that, and I think that just comes, that's just management leadership skills in my mind.

So, yeah, okay.

One of the things I like to get into people is the kind of the big wins and the big failures and the learnings from them.

So have you got an example of like kind of the kind of big wins that you've had throughout your career and the Positive stuff and the what, what you learned from that and equally the, the kind of things that maybe didn't go quite so well and because sometimes you learn just as much, if not more from, from them than you do from the good stuff.

And maybe let me sort of almost start with the question and I think for me, you know, you know, there's a lot of focus on agile ways of working and cross functional ways of working.

But for me, you know, it does really work if done well.

So I think that the sort of secret sauce and when things have gone well or not well in my career has been, you know, where you've had a team or a group of people or a group of teams who are pulling in the same direction with a really clear mantra and they're working together to solve a particular problem together.

Communication is really good.

Everyone's really clear about what the outcome is you're trying to achieve.

And that can be small or that can be huge in terms of what you're doing.

And if I look at splitting a bank in half, pretty significant undertaking.

But that could be building out a new team that could be opening an office, that could be delivering a new product, whether that's in the insurance market or the pensions and savings market.

But that for me is it.

And it's amazing how often we forget to do that.

In terms of making sure that you've got, you know, that team aligned around, you know, a common set of goals, you know, the comms are good, you've got the right change management around them and you know, and that, you know, that's really where I've had my biggest successes and probably where, you know, biggest, biggest, you know, failures as well.

Really.

Where that hasn't been right and that hasn't been in place and maybe you've not had people pulling in the same direction.

It just sounds really obvious.

But it's amazing how often it doesn't happen, happen in either small projects or major changes.

So what, what are the, what are the kind of takeaways that you have there?

Like?

So I guess I'm trying to get into like a bit more of the, the advice and how you say.

Because I look, I completely agree.

I mean, I think that transcends into, into everything from, from football teams to work to everything.

If you've got everybody singing from the same hymn sheet, working together, pulling in the same direction, you can, you can achieve some great things.

Leicester City Football Club are pretty, pretty much the modern example of that.

Right.

What are the kind of key learnings from that and I guess the kind of pointers into making sure we get that right moving forward.

Yeah.

So I think there's probably a couple of things, and a lot of it comes down to the team makeup as much as anything else.

So I think fundamentally, you need to have the right culture and the right sort of behaviors in the team.

You can have people are fantastically good at their job, but if they're not necessarily generally pulling in the same direction, that can be quite disruptive.

So I think that team culture side, and it's the management strategy theory that culture eats strategy for breakfast.

It is true, though, generally, I think if you get that right, it really makes a difference.

I think then the other thing for me is, and often I look at this when I'm building out a team or putting a team together for a project, is the different personalities and characters you have in there.

I think you need to have a variety.

Some of that is down to, like, diversity as well.

Like, you know, if you've got a load of, you know, white blokes in their 40s, you're probably not going to get diverse opinions.

So I think, you know, making sure you've got a diverse team is good, but you want people who are maybe a bit more outspoken, some people are a bit more reserved.

I think, you know, having that, you know, variety in your team is really needed, so you get those different perspectives and viewpoints.

And then I think also if you're delivering to a particular customer or an outcome, your customers or your, you know, whether they're internal or external are going to be different too.

So that will also foster those different opinions.

So I think the culture bit, and like I say, having a team with diverse views, I think is really important.

Do you almost kind of put that kind of synergy of getting the right team and the combination of different personality types, different sets of skills, bit of diversity of thought, all that kind of thing.

Is that kind of like the secret for, like, if you get that right, the rest of it kind of fits into place, generally speaking?

Yeah, I think so.

Yeah.

And again, that's where I sort of go back to where things have gone really well, or maybe not as well in the past, where maybe we haven't got that formula right.

Obviously, sometimes that's challenging, though, right?

Because if you've got budget constraints, you can't hire people, you can't get a.

Team, I guess, or whatever.

Yeah.

So sometimes you might have to shape what you've got and work with what you have, which I think is fine too.

And I think developing Internal colleagues, I think just something really rewarding as a manager in terms of helping them on that career journey and them developing.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

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Now let's get back to today's episode.

So I guess taking that onto kind of slightly broader picture is what are the kind of two or three absolutely key things that you would, you would say if there was someone further back in the career ladder than you trying to look to do similar things.

Like what are the two or three kind of key bits of advice that you would, you would give someone?

Yeah, so, so I think the first one is, and maybe a little bit of repetition of what I said before.

I think, you know, be open minded and embrace change.

I think, you know, you've heard about, you know, my, I've done, you know, lots of different things, you know, and I think that's just because I've just been up for doing different things, you know, as they come along.

I think, you know, it's a good thing.

You learn a lot about yourself and you learn a lot about the people around you, but just be really open minded to that.

The second thing is really, you know, make sure there's something in what you're doing that you enjoy and that you like.

That could be the people around you, that could be the industry in which you're working.

But I think it is important that you come to work and there's, you know, something that's giving something back to you, you know, so I Think that's something that's also important.

So you know, if you, if you really don't believe in the industry or the company that you're working for or you hate your team or your boss and things like that, the chances are, you know it's not going to be a good fit.

So making sure those things are in place and are right for you are also quite important.

And I think the third thing is just what I said before is, you know, research, read, ask questions like take control of things yourself.

You know, I think that's just something that is just so important for me and it's something like I say, you know, I've historically done a, a lot of.

But I think it just keeps you educated and aware.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I think that point that you, you said about making sure you, you kind of take opportunities and, and, and, and kind of jump it, that, that for me is like the, the, the kind of overarching thing about your career journey that you've, you've, you've obviously there's been, there's obviously been some junctures that, where you've taken a risk and done something completely different and it's, it's probably taking you off in a, in a, a whole different route that you probably, probably wouldn't have necessarily planned.

And do you find that like, has that been difficult to do that although did that kind of organically happen for you?

I'm always interested in the kind of decision making process when that comes around.

So I think there's points where it's difficult, but I think, you know, there's always points in work where it's difficult and often a lot of those challenges are things that are non controllables.

But I don't know for me if I'm going into a new role or doing something new or working with a new group of people.

It's really exciting.

So I, I think for me any sort of difficulty and any challenge was always really overcome by that excitement and that appetite for learning really and desire to do something a little bit different.

So yeah, we'd spoken a little bit before about moving between architecture roles and other roles.

The only real main difference is around being an individual contributor versus a manager.

Because when you're a manager and you're coaching and looking after people and it's a line management responsibility, you know, that, you know, takes up quite a lot of time.

I think when you're an individual contributor in a more senior role, you're obviously providing leadership and coaching to people naturally anyway, but that's really the main difference other than that for me, I think, you know, if, you know, whether I'm doing architecture role or a delivery role or whatever, it's so important that those things are in sync.

Anyway, for me it's just, you know, you're part of the same value chain, just maybe in a different part of it.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so what's the ambition for you?

Like where do you.

Maybe not quite next week or anything, but what's the North Star that kind of keeps you going and motivated?

You see, it's an interesting one because I touched on it before.

My, you know, my oldest is, you know, off to university next year.

My youngest is only a year behind that.

So, you know, in theory, empty, you know, empty nesters in a couple of years time.

So that doesn't give you a lot of reflection and thought.

So I think for me it's about doing something that I enjoy doing and that motivates me and helps me get up in the morning, but then also just really allows, you know, me and the family to do what we want to do from a home perspective as well.

And I think, you know, like I say, I enjoy what I do at the moment.

You know, I really enjoy the people that I work with.

If you'd asked me that question, you know, when I, when I took the role at Phoenix, I probably would have said, oh, you know, next natural step is, you know, cio, you know, COO eventually.

But, you know, now for me it's more about that satisfaction, that motivation and what I get from it that's probably going to maybe come from that sort of multifaceted role.

But I think, you know, it served me well so far to be a bit more opportunistic.

So I think I'm sticking with the more opportunistic approach for now, providing, like I say, it allows me to do, you know, what I've just really talked about before, do something that I enjoy doing, you know, have the quality of life at home that, you know, that I want to have, you know, be able to, you know, support the kids and my other half in the way that I want to be able to support them.

So it's that bigger picture really.

And I think life and home coming together is just so important.

So, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, I had a conversation with someone actually earlier today about I've got someone who is a, like, I've known for a very long time who's got, who is a cio, who, who's got real ambitions to be A CEO.

So quite lofty ambitions.

I have no doubt that she would achieve it.

She's one of those kind of people.

But I always remind her, like, make sure you enjoy the journey, because if you can become very focused on this kind of role, and actually, one, it may never happen, but two, you may actually get to a point in your life where you realize that actually enjoying what you do.

And not everyone has to be a CIO or a CEO and not everyone ever will be.

There's lots of kind of fulfillment around that.

And I think lots of people underestimate that or they get too channel focused because society kind of pushes them and says, you must.

You must go for the big.

The big job.

Yeah.

When actually a lot of the time, a lot of people get there and probably don't enjoy it quite so much as they do the journey before.

Yeah, absolutely.

For.

So the journey is just as important.

Yeah.

Well, look, we're kind of coming towards the end, but I always.

We do a bit of a quick fire round at the end.

So this is kind of the.

Just for a bit of fun.

But the first question I've got is, what is the one company or brand that you admire most and why?

So I'm gonna go a little bit sort of off in a different direction here.

So I'm gonna say Hawks more so.

As in the steak restaurant.

The steak restaurant.

And let me just sort of explain my answer a little bit.

So, I mean, you know, I like eating out.

I like good food and good wine.

I think the thing that I admire about Hawksmoor is they've grown from being, you know, they started off as a, you know, as one restaurant.

They've now got multiple restaurants in London, across the uk.

They've also opened restaurants in America.

I was gonna say.

I didn't know if it.

I didn't know.

I knew there was a small chamber.

I didn't know if it was.

Yeah.

So they got one in Chicago and one in New York.

So a British company has gone and opened a restaurant in New York and Chicago and is doing really well.

There's also loads of other state restaurants.

Well, there's also, like, you know.

So what they've done is, you know, they've kept, you know, a lot of their focus on what their customer proposition was at the start.

They've pivoted their business model or their product a little bit to suit the market that they moved in towards.

So I just think you look at it, and it's just really a lesson in how to grow a business.

I just.

We still go there all the time and in New York later on in the year and plan to check out their restaurant in Manhattan as well.

But I just think it's really good what they've done in terms of how they've grown and kept true to what they believed in at the start.

Is it still.

I guess it started as one restaurant.

Restaurant kind of probably family owned or something like that.

Is it.

Is it still owned by the same people?

Yeah, the original people are still involved.

You know, I.

I don't know the exact situation.

I'm sure they've got investment from various different, you know, various different places, but, yeah, now the original people are still there and still in charge, so.

Amazing.

Yeah, that's a good one.

It's the first one that no one's ever gone for a restaurant before, but.

So what's the one piece of advice that you wish someone had given you when you were starting out?

I think probably the thing that I feel like I haven't done is go and work outside the uk.

You know, I touched on, you know, I went to university in Newcastle, moved to London and when I moved to London and joined Catlin, it was, you know, suddenly in this international organisation, there was this whole world out there.

So I think, you know, maybe do that, you know, if I'd had the opportunity to do that.

I think as soon as you have, you know, kids, so it comes back to that, you know, grabbing opportunities while they exist.

That's maybe the one that I haven't done that I wish I had done.

But I think, you know, I think it just comes back to that broadening of mind, you know, you know, being aware of, you know, different cultures and things that are out there.

Yeah.

And I think that's probably maybe call it a little bit of regret of something that I haven't done so far.

So we did.

I didn't actually.

I meant to ask you at the start, like, you.

What was it like when you could.

Because, like, where was your first role that came.

Took you from the north of England into London?

Yeah, so that was.

Yeah, that was when I went from virgin money into Catlin.

So as well as.

As well as moving industry, that was a, you know.

Yeah, it was a big move because it was moving the family down.

So you, you.

I was going to ask actually, were you what?

Because I guess you'd been at Northern Rock Stroke Virgin for.

It would have been like.

Yeah, nine, ten years.

Yeah, yeah, something like that.

Yeah.

No, so, yeah, it was quite a big move for us.

I mean, my wife's originally from the southeast, so from Surrey originally.

But it was like you're looking for a house to rent.

And we like, you know, it was a bit like, right, we want somewhere we can get to London.

There's good schools for the kids, so you sort of put a dot in a map.

We looked at a couple of houses and, you know, we ended up in Kent in the sort of Tunbridge, Tunbridge Wells area.

So.

But it was, it was just, you know, we made a quick decision and it's all worked out.

So.

But for me as well, being a northerner, moving to the south, that was like, that in itself was quite a big change for me.

Well, you also, I guess lots of people do that, but lots of people would probably do it when they're kind of in their twenties completely.

Rather like.

Rather than kind of when they've got married with kids.

Because you come down to London at kind of 25 or something like that, you make mates pretty easily and everything's kind of.

You've got a lot less things to worry about.

Whereas actually coming down and, yeah, that must have been a big move.

How did you find it?

Yeah, I mean, you know what it is.

It was difficult at points and the kids were at separate schools and there was stress factors.

But from a career perspective, you know, it's worked out really well for me.

You know, no regrets whatsoever.

Whatsoever.

You know, we really like where we are at the moment, you know, so.

I think stayed in the same place.

That we stayed in the same area, but we've moved house a few times, so.

But yeah, no.

So, you know, it's been really positive.

No regrets about it at all.

You know, I wouldn't say we wish we'd done it sooner, but it's just, it's worked out really well.

Do you go back home much?

A little bit, yeah.

But, you know, now, you know, a lot of time I have friends come down and stay with us or come down to London and see us.

So that tends to be more of that than me going back, you know, back to Doncaster and back to Newcastle.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

If you could swap jobs with anyone for the day, who would it be?

So, you know, what is this is this might be quite a boring answer.

So, as you've heard from me already, I've always been on the kind of buy side and I've never been on the sell side.

And you know, when I was looking at a role at Phoenix, I was, you know, thinking about that and I just, I'd love to go in whether It's a tech company consultancy and see what it's like, see if it, you know, if maybe, you know, that's, that's an area where I could maybe work in the future and tied to your point around career ambition, is that something that would be a good fit for me?

I think there's always, you know, that comfort.

You've been on the buy side for so long.

But yeah, I just really love to, you know, be a fly on the wall and see what happens.

Well, that's possible, right?

You could do that at some point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

At least it's not like Donald Trump or something like that, which is probably not, not, not doable.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, exactly.

Yeah.

So maybe it is more achievable.

But yeah, I think it's getting that sort of warts and all view really of what it's actually like.

So.

Yeah, okay, good.

Best non fictional kind of work related book.

You mentioned actually quite a few times about kind of reading and stuff like that.

Is there any.

So a lot of the.

I guess when I say reading, that's more kind of research papers, etc.

So from, I guess from a non fiction book.

I'm not a massive non fiction fiction reader in general.

I'll go for a book called Sapiens by Ambari.

I just find it really interesting in terms of that intersection between, you know, how humankind has evolved, social sciences, human sciences and how that's come together and even.

I mean I think he published a book in many.

Maybe late sort of maybe 2008, 2009.

I've heard it.

Yeah, I don't know much about it.

A lot of the things that he spoke about are kind of, you know, I wouldn't say they're all coming true but some of the figures he expressed around some of the impact of tech and what it's going to do to humankind, you know, do feel like they're coming true.

So it's just a really interesting read.

So yeah, I mean I like those books.

I made a bit of a commitment this year.

I was going to read twat.

A lot of.

I'm not a big reader but I was going to read 12 books this year.

One a month was kind of my, my, my aim.

But yeah, those books where they're written quite a while back and they predict stuff in the future and then it happens, they're quite, they're quite interesting, aren't they?

Yeah, absolutely.

Is that, is that, is that kind of what that book's ultimately about?

Is it like kind of.

I Mean, it goes right back to early human history in terms of, you know, talking about, you know, you know, initial industrial revolutions, what impact that then had on the human species, what it means to them.

It talks a lot about why, why mankind is almost a dominant species on Earth and the reasons for that.

And it comes back to, I mean, I did history at A level, I did an economics degree.

It brings a lot of those theoretical aspects together and I just found it really interesting.

I can remember when I read it the first time, I just couldn't really put it down.

So I just found it really compelling.

Good.

Well, I'll definitely add it to the list.

The next one is what's the best career decision you've ever made?

I've spoken about it a little bit already, but I think that move, when we made the move from Newcastle, from banking down to London, I'm not just saying that because it's an insurance podcast in terms of when I joined insurance, but I just think that's been a really good move.

It was a, you know, at the time, I think, you know, a couple of our friends said, wow, that's really brave.

You're moving location, you're moving industry, doing loads of different things all at the same time, but, you know, it's worked out really well.

Yeah, I think, you know, that's really informed a lot of my decisions since in terms of take a chance and you'll work it out.

Was that, was that a job based decision?

I essentially moved because the job was a good opportunity, community or was it a kind of a lifestyle thing that you actually wanted to do that.

So therefore you found the job in London off the back of it or this could be a bit.

Right.

It was a bit of both really.

You know, I think there was an element of, you know, we'd lived in Newcastle for quite a long time.

We were maybe.

Oh, so you were living in Newcastle.

After leaving Newcastle, left university.

So he stayed there.

So, you know, we were maybe looking for a change of scenery.

You know, the role just kind of came along, you know, so that was really more opportunistic.

But I think, you know, you're starting to think about, you know, things like schools and education for the children and a number of different factors.

So it just, it kind of all came together really by fluke in many ways.

But yeah, and I just, you know, it's just, it's worked out really well for us.

So no regrets and no looking back.

Yeah.

Did you meet your wife at university?

I did, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So yeah, I'VE been together since, so.

And actually, when I took my job in Newcastle at Northern Rock, one of the drivers for that was staying in Newcastle because she still had a year left.

Yeah.

Because my brother's a big Newcastle football fan, which is a bit of a random.

I won't bore you with the random story of how old guy from Wiltshire managed to support Swindon from just outside Swindon manages to support Newcastle, but he does.

It's a bit warmer down here as well.

Yeah, there is that.

So.

And then the final one is if what is the kind of one person that you admire most or kind of role model?

So I am gonna go to sport for this.

I'm gonna say Kevin Sinfield.

I mean, I grew up in a, you know, northern English town, so, you know, wasn't a rugby league player myself growing up, but, you know, a number of my friends were.

And, you know, so Kevin Sinfield's about my age, you know, so he grew up, very successful career.

And I think if I just look at what he's done since then in terms of, you know, he's forged a successful career, but, you know, what he's done in terms of, you know, fundraising, you know, for his friend.

I don't know if he had a.

Background coming to him.

I thought that was.

I'm not into rugby at all, but funnily enough, I saw it.

Did you see the Martin Johnson post?

Yeah, yeah.

About.

About Gary, about Gareth Southgate kind of stuff.

Yeah, that's where I see.

Remember his name.

But.

But yeah, Like, I mean, I.

I'm not.

I.

I've seen a fair bit of stuff, but he's done some incredible stuff.

Completely.

It's just that resilience.

And he says, you know, he's so humble.

He just says, I'm doing it for my mate, you know, who passed away last year, actually.

And it's just, you know, quite inspiring.

Burrows.

Rob Burrows.

Yeah, yeah.

Make with neuron disease.

And I think the thing is, like.

Like I say, he's done all of that.

He's forged a successful career.

He's got a family life.

He keeps his sort of family out of spotlight.

And I just, you know, he's just an amazing individual.

You know, it's just hard not to be in awe of the guy.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, what.

I mean, I've only seen bits and pieces of what he'd done, but even the stuff that I've seen, I mean, didn't he do.

Didn't he do like an iron man with Rob Burrow as well?

Like kind of pushing him around for some of it and like, it's like crazy stuff.

Yeah, all kinds.

Is he still playing rugby?

He's a coach.

He's a coach.

He's actually one of the England rugby union coaches now.

But yeah, various different challenges, like a marathon every day for power.

Yeah, just it's, it's incredible.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What a guy.

Okay, well, look, and then, I mean like I said at the kind of earlier on, like the overarching question I ask everyone at the end is what is it you love about insurance?

And I know you're not quite in the London market space now, but the kind of insurance, life and pension space, what is it you love about it most?

Yeah.

So you kind of partly stole one of the things I was going to say about how, you know, it's there for people in their time of need and it, you know, it's something that does, you know, genuinely add human value and it works.

And I agree insurance has this sort of kind of negative perception of.

But you know, that's one thing, but I think the people.

And again, that's maybe the second cliched answer as well.

But I think the passion you see, you know, for insurance, for something that maybe not the average person, you know, might not see as that exciting and interesting.

Interesting.

People love it.

They genuinely do.

They're really passionate about it.

And you know, I think that, you know, rubs off in the people that you're working with, you know, and what's actually being done and what's actually being delivered, you know, whether that's people, you know, more on the business side, people in insuretech, you know, different facets to it.

So.

And it just feels like a community, I think because of that, which I think is, you know, is really nice.

So.

Yeah, it's interesting you say that like no one cares what.

I love insurance but, but, but I stay down in London, so I stayed down in London last night and, and I was walking in this morning about 7:30.

It was just getting light and the, the fact that you can.

I never really, I mean I kind of always knew it, but the fact that you can walk to one area and everyone be there and you know that everyone walking around you is potentially a kind of a customer, a colleague, a client or whatever this.

I've.

I think people underestimate how cool that is because I do some work in the US and it's like it's all over the place.

Yeah, it's very spread out.

Yeah.

I mean even the new stuff that's in New York is still pretty spread out.

It's not like.

So yeah, that community thing I think is not really.

I think people maybe not necessarily take it for granted, but they don't realize quite how unique that is.

Agreed.

Well, look great way to finish.

Thanks very much.

Really appreciate your time.

I'm sure there'll be some people that maybe want to connect and stuff like this.

Off the back of it, I know we started speaking on LinkedIn, so is that.

Are you cool with people doing that, reaching out and please do and ask any questions.

Well, well yeah.

As I say, thanks for your time.

It's really appreciated.

Thanks everyone for listening.

There's plenty more episodes coming.

Keep listening, keep liking, subscribe and connect with me.

Connect with Matt and we'll catch you all soon.

Cheers Matt.

Right, thanks for having me.

Pleasure.

And that's it for today's episode of beyond the Desk.

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