So, hi everyone.

Welcome back to another episode of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Wisdom.

This is the shorter episodes that go out on a Monday and I'm really happy to have you here because this is where we kind of get into the nitty gritty of some of the previous episodes and the content.

And today I wanted to talk about a conversation or a topic that so many of us experience and that is burnout and this sort of internal pressure and perfectionism that seems to sort of impact and affect so many of us with adhd.

So in my new book, the ADHD Women's Wellbeing Toolkit, there is a whole chapter on burnout.

It's called Prevent Burnout.

And I've dedicated a whole chapter to this topic because it's something that I personally deal with and so many of my clients, my community, my audience all relate to feeling burnt out on unfortunately a regular basis.

And I am going to read out a little section of the burnout chapter just so you can start understanding it and creating a bit more awareness.

So it's called Breaking the Cycle.

We need to be aware of the self perpetuating cycles that are leading us to burnout.

We may enjoy our ADHD enthusiasm, wanting to do and achieve it all, but look at some of the challenges we're up against.

Our expectations of what we should be doing are out of alignment with what we can realistically achieve with our time and current responsibilities and dopamine levels.

Our bodies and nervous systems can't keep up with our restless, whirring minds.

How could they?

We need to learn how to slow down and remember that our sensitive systems need frequent rest and recharging to function at their best.

We don't question needing to recharge our phones, laptops and cars.

So why do we question ourselves for needing to rest, decompress and have a day off?

Our energy and our nervous systems have to be nurtured or we become depleted.

We can resist this need and keep falling into these boom and bust cycles.

Or we can start sending ourselves some love and then tweaking our lives to work in alignment with our nervous systems.

And for a reflective moment, maybe can you pause and read back through these challenges that we've discussed?

Or what you can recognize and see what resonates with you?

When do those burnout cycles happen?

What are the triggers?

What, what are the pressures and the expectations that you're putting on yourself?

And can you recognize where this shows up in your life?

So I'm really happy to welcome back a guest of mine Natalie Englander, who is a CBT therapist and she's also helped hundreds of perfectionists overcome anxiety, stop overthinking, beat their procrastination and build more self confidence while they are discovering their late in life adhd.

So the reason why I wanted to bring this back to you is because we look at why perfectionism can be so tied up in our self esteem, why your perfectionism could be that coping mechanism for your ADHD and understand how perfectionism and imposter syndrome sort of marry up together.

And also some strategies, some mindfulness and thought challenging techniques for managing that internal negative talk.

Really, really powerful stuff.

Now you'll also hear from Michaela Thomas who offers her compassionate approach to avoiding burnout.

But here is Natalie's wisdom on on perfectionism and adhd.

What's interesting is that we do hear this word perfectionism being bandaged around.

It's very topical.

You know, you can say attributed to maybe sort of TikTok videos and all of that.

But what is when you, you're seeing it as a therapist and not as this sort of very surface layer of like your house being very tidy or your hair always being done and your makeup flawless.

Like what does it look like on I guess the most debilitating level.

Yeah, I guess the most debilitating level is where essentially you're basing your self worth on your achievements so you're kind of only feeling as good as whatever your latest achievement is.

And then if you don't achieve whatever the goal is that you'd set for yourself, then you feel absolutely rubbish about yourself.

And I guess that's quite a dangerous place to be when your self worth is dependent on whether you're achieving or not as opposed to always feeling worthy regardless of whether or not you fail at something or you don't pass an exam or you make a mistake or you don't get the job that you interviewed for.

And I guess it can just keep people really stuck in some very unhelpful patterns.

Whether that's procrastinating, we're putting things off because we just feel like the pressure is too great because it needs to be perfect.

Or if we're constantly criticizing ourself and there's so much shame I think that comes along with that really sort of unhelpful, unhealthy perfectionism.

And of course it can contribute towards anxiety, depression, ocd, eating disorders.

So it can have a really negative impact for sure.

Thank you for explaining that.

Because it is really important that we sort of scratch beneath that surface and we understand that it's not just this surface, like, you know, when you talk about eating disorders and anxiety and depression and it being fueled by this need to feel validated and worthy.

And obviously that begins as children.

If we're talking ADHD and perfectionism, what do you think those links are?

Especially if we're sort of going back to childhood and looking at those beginning patterns of it?

Yeah, well, I think for lots of people with adhd, whether they've been diagnosed when they were younger or if they've not been diagnosed until later life, so I guess we're going through their childhood with undiagnosed adhd, is that the perfectionism can develop as a way to either cope with or sort of compensate for the struggles that they might be having with their ADHD symptoms, whether it's stuff to do with inattentiveness and they're forgetful and that can create lots of shame or self criticism or also, I guess, criticism from other people, you know, teachers, parents.

Why haven't you done your homework?

Why have you forgotten to bring your books or whatever.

And yeah, I think it sort of makes sense that so many people do develop perfectionism as a way to cope with having adhd.

And that's why I think I often feel like we don't want to sort of slate perfectionism too much, which I think we can have a tendency to do because of course it can be really awful and it can, can be really unhelpful.

But actually sometimes it can also be healthy and helpful.

And I think particularly for people with adhd, it can, yeah, develop as a way to help them cope.

They may be doing things almost a sort of scaffold life where perhaps they are now appearing really organized.

But that's because they know if they don't write everything down or if they don't keep their calendar organized, they, they're not going to remember any of it and then they will be late or they will forget things.

But I think that, and certainly my experience as a perfectionist, but also having worked with hundreds of perfectionists, is that when we try and approach it with this sort of mindset of perfectionism is all bad and I need to overcome it and I need to get rid of it.

And even when we refer to ourselves as a recovering perfectionist, which I used to think, think of or kind of call myself, but I don't anymore, is that I think it can be really unhelpful because it's so hard to not be a perfectionist at all.

And also I'm yet to Meet any perfectionist who doesn't like some part of their perfectionism or being a perfectionist.

And so I kind of just thought, why are we all trying to force ourselves to overcome this thing and then feeling really rubbish when it's not working and we're, you know, kind of failing to overcome it?

Actually, maybe it's going to feel a lot more helpful to just accept that.

Perfectionism, technically, it's not a mental health problem.

It is a personality trait.

And therefore, if it's part of our personality, let's actually just try and embrace it and stop trying to sort of not be a perfectionist and instead focus on how can we learn to manage our perfectionism.

So deal with the unhealthy, unhelpful parts of it, but then also try and harness the positive, helpful, healthy parts of it, aiming more to try and learn how to thrive as a perfectionist, not stop being a perfectionist.

Yeah, I love that.

So how does that look?

Let's get practical.

Let's kind of like maybe come up with a.

An anonymous fictional kind of client that we can maybe workshop around.

Because I think what's really helpful, we have these conversations and we're there, we're vulnerable, we're truthful.

I don't want to make sure that the audience is kind of thinking, okay, I can really relate to all of this.

Thank you for all the honesty.

But how do I move through this if maybe I can't afford therapy?

And how do I embrace and use my perfectionism?

Like you say, manage it and have it there as a part of our personality that doesn't feel like it's taking over or like we can kind of utilize it for good.

What does that look like?

Yeah, well, I guess I. I think it's a good place to start, is trying to just get to the root of your perfectionism a little bit.

Which, of course, I think is.

Is easier done, you know, with a therapist in therapy.

But it doesn't have to be.

You know, you can just sit down and reflect on your own life or journal to get a sense of maybe where your perfectionism has come from, why it might have developed.

So know, for lots of women with adhd, that's why it's developed as a way to cope with or compensate for their symptoms.

But for other people, it might be that they had really critical parents that put lots of pressure on them to perform and always, you know, get 100% at school, etc.

So just taking the time to reflect, maybe why it's developed.

I think it's helpful because it can just start to build in that compassion for yourself to see.

Okay, it kind of makes sense that I've developed perfectionism or that, you know, I'm a perfectionist.

And also in that reflecting piece is you're going to spot and see where maybe it's also helped you or you feel like, yeah, that that was maybe a part of why I did get all A's and A stars because I worked extra hard because of my perfectionism.

So yeah, I think starting off, figuring out the root of it and then I guess it's.

It's getting a sense of when it shows up in an unhelpful way and what that looks like.

So maybe it's procrastination, maybe it's people pleasing, overthinking, self criticism, all that fun stuff that women with ADHD in particular know all about and kind of working on one thing at a time.

Let's not put pressure on ourselves to try and do everything all at once because we wouldn't do that in therapy.

It's just too overwhelming.

We want things to be challenging but not overwhelming.

So maybe thinking, okay, I'm going to pick one of the things I'm struggling with.

Procrastination, for example.

How can I work on that?

How can I create some.

Some small wins?

So I'm not going with that all or nothing approach.

You know, I need to totally overcome my procrastination or I failed.

It's.

What kind of tweaks can I make experimenting with different ways of doing things?

Because of course, everyone's different.

So some people with procrastination, let's say maybe they'd work better doing a piece of work in the morning because that's when they can focus best.

But for other people, they're going to procrastinate less if they work in the evenings.

Or maybe for some people it helps them to do the hardest task first, get that out the way, then the sort of the fear's gone and they can relax a bit and do the other ones.

But for other people it's going to be the other way.

Let's do an easy one first.

Tick that off, feel good, bit of dopamine.

Now I can move on to the harder one that I've been avoiding.

So I think often sort of, yeah, testing, testing things out and then also, yeah, looking at where it shows up in a helpful way.

What parts of your perfectionism do you like and how can you try and build on that in some way?

Because I think so often we tend to focus on Our negatives.

And we really need to try and shift that into celebrating our achievements, celebrating our wins, no matter how small.

Because often we just discount all of the positives.

Particularly when you're a perfectionist as well.

There's a real habit of just discounting anything positive and thinking everyone can do that or I, I should have just been able to do that anyway, it's, it's nothing great.

And then you're kind of raising the bar even higher every single time.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I guess it kind of blends in with imposter syndrome as well, that, doesn't it?

Which we know many of us have dealt with and suffer with.

And it's a really tricky one because I think with imposter syndrome you just never feel like you're good enough, you know, and addressing that alongside the perfectionism as well of it being, I mean, for me, I think maybe my perfectionism definitely showed up in, in imposter syndrome.

And that's just always been like a bit of a mantra in my head of, you know, I've said it a few times, even this conversation, just winging it.

I'm just sort of like winging it and just kind of, you know, muscling through and just hopefully, you know, something kind of sticks where if I was my client I would say, well, look what you've achieved, look what you've done.

It's been through lots of hard work and persistence and growth and failure and picking yourself up again and pivoting and changing.

Yeah, resilience.

Yeah, that's kind of like my self talk.

Especially say yesterday when I literally was on the floor in my bedroom going to, saying to my husband like I can't do this anymore type thing.

And so it comes to me quicker now, the voice of, but look at what you've achieved, look how you've done them.

You've done this on your own.

Yeah.

So I think this is where mindfulness can be really helpful because often it's really good to do thought challenging, which we do a lot of in cbt, challenging those negative unhelpful thoughts that happen.

But sometimes no matter how much we do that, there might always be some thoughts that will linger on or maybe might always be there for however many months, years or forevermore.

And I think having a mindfulness approach to those is more useful.

So thinking of a personal example, if I ever get any kind of self critical thoughts, you know, you haven't done a good enough job with this thing.

Rather than feeling like I need to go and challenge that and you know, say, well, you did this well, or etc.

Instead, the mindfulness approach for me is more of a, oh, here's the old classic, you haven't done a good enough job.

Hi there.

Thanks for coming.

Great.

Cool.

Have a nice day.

I'm just going to go back to focusing on whatever it was that I was focusing on.

So I'm kind of just acknowledging the thoughts there.

I've noticed it.

I'm not trying to push it away.

I'm allowing it to be there, but I'm just now not going to really engage much.

And again, I think that can feel quite helpful rather than that sort of pressure that we can have as perfectionists to feel like, you know, we need to need to overcome something, we need to conquer it.

I need to challenge my thought and get rid of this unhelpful one.

Maybe that's not always going to be realistic.

So I hope that explanation of perfectionism was useful in understanding where your burnout might stem from and how you can help yourself.

And now I wanted to bring you that clip with my previous guest, Michaela Thomas, who is a clinical psychologist.

She's also a coach and the founder of psychology practice the Thomas Connection, and also the author of the Lasting Connection.

And Michaela specializes in perfectionism.

And what we'll get from today's conversation with Michaela is why you might fall into this boom or bust cycle of burnout and how you can work with your hyper focus so it's not just there sort of grinding you down.

So here is my conversation with Michaela Thomas.

It's only with the ADHD diagnosis, we're able to understand ourselves a little bit more.

We're able to connect these dots and before a diagnosis, before we can understand ourselves, it's just like you say, this pattern, this boom or bust pattern that each time it's like, okay, next time's going to be different.

Next time I'm going to learn what it was that led me to this burnout and I'm not going to do it again.

And then before we know it, you know, we've tweaked something but not enough, or we think we've done one thing, but actually it's compounding another issue.

What would you say if someone is listening right now and they, they are relating to this boom or bust cycle and they don't know how to break it, where do people start?

I think it's just understanding the sweet, sweet dopamine.

Of course you're going to want to have that kick of sitting in your hyper Focused attention because you might have been in the slump for so long that you think, well, I finally got started, then I dare not stop because I'll be procrastinating again and then I'll be in stagnation or inertia or you know, almost like the hardest part was to get started.

So if I stop now, if I take a break now, I won't be able to do it anymore.

And that's, that is just really, really important to give yourself that permission to say, yeah, that's understandable.

That is my brain, my brain is differently wired.

It's not better, it's not worse, it's just differently wired.

And that reality check of how your brain reacts to dopamine differently, to the neurotypical brain, that is a first start towards self compassion.

Because I specialize a lot in working with compassion, having that reality check, that is not my fault that I respond this way.

It is not my fault that I react this way to novel experiences like the Shiny object syndrome.

It's not my fault my brain is wired to respond to this.

And what can I do to harness that?

How can I work with that?

That.

So we don't get into this glorification of the hyper focus as like just the ADHD superpower because it is something that I very often see landing women in burnout because too much of a good thing is still too much, right?

So putting in sustainable practices, anchoring yourself with other people who understand that you may need a bit of help with a stop button can be really important.

Maybe having, you know, if you've self employed like me, maybe having a team that's briefed on you need some of these measures in place to help you break the hyperfocus, or maybe loved ones who can try to remind you that it's time to stop.

Or if you're in a workplace and obviously, you know, listen, listening again to your previous episode with Leanne Maskell is really important of understanding the access to work scheme, to having those reasonable adjustments made for you in the workplace that actually no wonder that I feel this way, no wonder that I behave this way at this boom and bust cycle is not helpful.

We might think, oh, it's great because I'm in the up phase, getting lots of stuff done, cleaning the kitchen like there is no tomorrow, but it's not actually a good place to be.

It might be really exhausting.

So as a pragmatist, I look a lot at contextualism, I look a lot of function, you know, what is workable.

So if someone tells me that their hyper focus causes no problems whatsoever for them.

They've never stayed up all night, they never felt they exhausted the next day, that never felt burnt out.

Then I'm like, great, you've harnessed your hyper focus in a nice way.

Good on you.

And I'm probably going to struggle to find many of those people who haven't felt the hangover from the hyperfocus.

I don't know about you, but it's certainly something that I've sometimes paid a price for.

Probably related to the burnout episodes I had in the, when I worked in the NHS as well, that it's okay to feel like you want to go above and beyond, but you can't do that on every single thing.

So you have to choose wisely.

Where do you give your sort of impact?

Where do you want to put those in so that you can follow your ambition, create impact for others with less impact on yourself.

The vulnerability is there for burnout.

We are more likely than the average person, than the neurotypical person to be prone to burnout because of how our brain is wired to be prone to anxiety.

The correlations are there.

That doesn't mean that it's cause and effect.

ADHD means you have to be anxious, ADHD means you have to be burnt out.

It just means that similar to someone who is struggling, you know, who managing diabetic condition would need it to be aware of their, their insulin, you know, making sure that they have their medication with them, checking their sugar levels.

It's a self management practice that sometimes you can kick back at.

And it's absolutely okay to feel that frustration against the things you sort of quote unquote have to do to remain well.

I get that.

And it can be really difficult because we exist in a world that A, like you said, promotes perfection and B is built for neurotypical people.

So no wonder then, I guess this is compassion piece again.

No wonder that this is difficult, that we put pressure on ourselves to do all the things, juggle all the stuff, wear all the hats and then feel really overwhelmed and spent.

So for me personally in my practice I've had to build a work day that is sustainable for me, that has lots of body movements built in because you cannot burn bright if you are burnt out.

You cannot do brilliant things and create an impact and leave a legacy and all of these ambitious things you want to do.

You can't do that if you're spent.

You cannot give to others if you've got nothing left to give.

So it starts with you, of Topping yourself up with self care and self compassion.

And it's really important that they are not driven by dogma.

Right.

That they are not prescriptive because we are different.

There I'm reflecting on.

In order for me to remain well in motherhood, I have much younger children than you do.

I think it's actually really important for me to build in space for my work as well as my mothering.

So it's about doing what works well for you and what serves a purpose for you rather than thinking should.

Right.

I should be a stay at home mom, or I should be working full time or I should be only working these amounts of hours.

Softening a should to a could invites in the opportunity to choose wisely.

I could be a stay at home parent and I could be parking my career for the moment and that would have its perks, that would have its downsides.

I could be working full time now, maybe bring in more money, but that could have its perks and that could have its downsides.

So when we soften a should to a could, we take some of the self blame away from us, take some of the pressure away from us and we compassionate can choose well what serves me best, the person I am.

Given everything I know about myself and my brain wiring, my life experience, my life situation, what do I choose wisely, what do I invite more in of and what do I need to actually gently, kindly with myself let go of?

And that might mean setting the boundary with yourself.

So for me, I'm quite firm on evening working.

I did it last night because I was part of a mastermind thing that was only scheduled in the evening and I really struggled to come to sleep afterwards.

You know, the hyperactive mind was dwelling on lots of buzzing ideas and I actually know, but working in the evenings doesn't serve.

Yeah.

So those, those are sort of my 2 2p around where it's really important to have that awareness and it can be exhausting.

Like you say, it's almost like tracking yourself, but you have a lot to gain from doing it.

When you learn to notice that there's a hole in the road about to come up, that could be your burnout, you're overwhelmed, becoming shouty mom, whatever it is, the hole in the road is coming.

That can even be, you know, the last week of your cycle.

That's the hole in the road that's coming up.

What do I do to look after myself so I can gently walk around the hole rather than falling in?

Yeah, I think that harnessing your energy, utilizing your potential has to be combined with taking regular breaks, otherwise that potential won't last.

It's like, that is the whole point of the flickering light.

It's almost like when you see the flame is almost like flickering, that means it's.

You're on shaky grounds and it's about to be extinguished.

And so I think much more about, like, what can give you sustainable glow, like the glowing embers of the fire.

That's when you can really, you know, grill some marshmallows.

That's where you can get some really important stuff done.

But it's really important to know that the fire also starts somewhere.

Like, you might set things ablaze fully, and then it sort of takes some time to tend to it.

Do you have to tend to the fire yourself, or is there anyone else who can help to tame things a little bit for you that you have a good collaboration with?

And again, this is why I'm mentioning the access to Work scheme, where it might be that you get allocated a PA or a coach or someone who can help you do those things.

So that's the compassion piece as well.

They're saying, actually, in order for me to burn bright, in order for me to have that fire within me that I really want to feel, because it feels really good as well, to do this, to follow your heart's desire.

It feels really passionate, right?

And inspired.

We also need to kind of mirror that with what do I need to make it sustainable without feeling like I have to mask constantly and not be me?

So I think of this as being very intentional and conscious about when you take the mask off, where it feels safe to do so, where you kind of feel, you know, I'll let all the.

All the stuff hang out a bit.

And, you know, like, I started by apologizing for being two minutes late to our recording room, thinking, well, you can't really be on brand for ADHD without being a little bit late.

So holding it more lightly, bringing a sense of humor to it, embracing that this is who you are.

It doesn't mean that you have to then tolerate all the ways that this gets you into trouble without doing anything about it.

Compassion is not a passive choice.

Compassion is a courageous, brave choice where you say to yourself, this is not my fault.

This brain wiring of mine is not my fault.

And it is my responsibility to try to meet myself where I'm at, support myself with this, and create something really good from this life that I have, the one life I have to live.

What do I need to do that?

So the first part of compassion is the sense making.

I've made sense of this, I've had insight, I've received a diagnosis or about the assessment, realizing these behavioral patterns are not my fault.

That's a sense making.

No wonder that I feel this way, that I behave this way, that I think this way, that I feel this way in my body.

No wonder that's the sense making.

The second part of compassion is the action taking.

We cannot just have insight and be like, oh well, I've got adhd, so I'm kind of off the hook and I'm allowed to do whatever I want and be excused because I have this neurodivergent brain.

The second part is the action taking where you kind of ask yourself what's going to be helpful rather than harmful for me to do towards myself, towards other people.

So that part of compassion involves a mindful acceptance into it is what it is and what can I do about it?

What can I do to support myself?

What things can I change and how do I accept and surrender into the things I cannot change?

So I hope you enjoyed listening to this shorter episode of the ADHD Women's Wellbeing podcast.

I've called it the ADHD Women's well Being Wisdom because I believe there's so much wisdom in the guests that I have on and their insights.

So sometimes we just need that little bit of a reminder.

And I hope that has helped you today and look forward to seeing you back on the brand new episode on Thursday.

Have a good rest of your week.