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This was a great question from a
recent unstuck Academy q and a, uh,

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differentiating between Fawn and
Appeasement, and then bringing in a deep

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discussion of dissociation and recovery.

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I wanna share with you, and I'm
really curious what you think.

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I always ground my thoughts
in the Polyvagal Theory,

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primary source teachings.

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But this is one area where I split
off from the Polyvagal Orthodoxy.

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Hi, I'm Justice Sunseri.

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I am a therapist and coach who helps
you live more calmly, confidently, and

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connected without psychobabble or woo woo.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.

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This is of, uh, not therapy, uh, nor
is it intended to replace therapy.

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Oh, and I removed as much of the
students' audio as I could, and

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I replaced it with AI versions of
their questions and discussion.

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I am struggling to
understand fawn and appease.

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I've only just begun the coursework, but
would like to hear your thoughts on that.

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I deviate from the official Polyvagal,
uh, Polyvagal Institute and Dr.

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Porges doctrine on this, okay?

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I deviate a bit.

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So in the book, I believe it was this
one, our Polyvagal world, which is

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written by- yeah, him and his son.

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They lay fawning out as flight and
fight plus shutdown, but I flight and

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fight plus shutdown is also freeze.

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So in very generic terms, they're
suggesting that freeze and fawn both have

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the same underlying autonomic activation.

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I personally don't like that.

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Um, to me, to me, fawning is a behavior.

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It's something that we would recognize
as a behavior or, or a way of thinking.

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Um, it's, it's prioritizing somebody
else, making sure their needs

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are met as a way to placate them.

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That is a specific behavior,
I think comes from shutdown.

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I would argue that fawning as a
behavior is a solution to someone

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being not a solution, but a, an
adaptation to chronic and deep and

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severe, shut down or freeze activation.

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So I look at this as someone is in a
situation that is severe, like an abusive

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home, uh, hostage, hostage situation.

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So like something that they cannot escape.

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Um, and their state is
chronically shut down or freeze.

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I argue there's there's gotta be
a lot of free- shutdown in there.

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So to adapt to the, to that state and
get their needs met, they fawn as a, as a

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way to get their needs met and deal- and
reduce the amount of danger in the- the

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amount of life threat in the situation.

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So that's how I conceptualized it, because
one could have flight, fight and shut

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down active at the same time and not fawn.

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So it doesn't make sense to me that
fawning and freeze could have the same

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underlying neural pathways, unless
we look at fawning as a behavioral

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adaptation to set down or freeze.

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So same thing with appeasement, which
I'm a little bit more on board with.

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Appeasement is, again, very
con- contextually driven

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and behaviorally focused.

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The context would again, be a
situation where they cannot escape,

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can't fight, can't run away.

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Shutting down is not gonna work because
they'll, they won't get their needs met.

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They'll, they'll die.

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So appeasement, they conceptualize in
the book as a combination of all of

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the states active at the same time.

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In particular, in a situation
like a hostage situation where

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they, or a kidnapping situation
where they can't escape.

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And so one would appease, which
is, which is a, uh, general set of

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behaviors they would appease in order
to reduce the amount of potential

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life threat in the environment from
the captor and the appeasement would

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also help them get their needs met.

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I would argue that appeasement comes
from significant freeze or shutdown.

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I would argue more shutdown
personally, because when one appeases

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or fawns, they are, um, they're,
they're really depends- they're,

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they could potentially be very much.

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Acting in ways that are not in alignment
with their true values, like very much,

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I mean, they're pretty disconnected
from themselves at that point.

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To me, that means there's a, there's
a ton of shutdown and probably

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dissociation happening, which leads to
these behaviors to get their needs met.

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Could a fawn or appeasement behavioral
adaptation be a way to potentially

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lessen the other person's defensive
states in your own interest?

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Yeah, exactly.

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That's what I, that's
what I was trying to say.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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It's, it's, these are strategies and
not like they're, you know, someone's

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not like blueprinting this stuff out.

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Um, it's, they do what they have
to do to survive in this situation.

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So appeasement in particular, because
they, it does seem to have some

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safety activation along with it.

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So this person who can appease ha- they
can utilize all of their states in these

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situations, and they can come across as
a friend to the captor or as an ally,

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you know, they can, like, I'm on your
team, I'll help you hide from the police.

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I'll lie for you.

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Now, outside of that situation,
that person probably would never

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think of doing those things or feel
good about it or feel proud of it.

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Right?

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But in that context, those behaviors
help to reduce the, the, the danger,

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the literal, I mean the literal danger.

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So they might help that captor
temporarily just bring their fight

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activation, probably their rage
come down enough to where that the

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person who is appeasing or fawning
can, you know, get through the day.

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So, with appeasement then, you
would need some amount of social

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activation and thinking available.

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Whereas in fawn, that might be different.

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Yeah, you nailed it.

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So appeasing is, there's a, there's a, i,
I don't, it's, I don't think it's a true

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social connected empathy; I don't think
it's a true like ventral vagal state.

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And that's- we could talk about it if
that think is more complex, but like,

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I don't think it's a true connection.

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It's a pseudo connection,
like a fake connection.

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Um, or I don't know, may, maybe
the person does truly feel it.

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I, I don't know.

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I, I, I, I don't know.

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I can't get that part into it.

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But regardless, there does seem to be
some ventral activation in there to

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come across as a friend, and then with
fawning, it's not friendship, it's

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more like, um, I'm, I'm invisible.

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I'm not a threat.

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Don't pay- don't pay attention to me.

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So, if a person is receiving
appeasement behavior, then they're being

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co-regulated by it to some extent, right?

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Yeah, exactly.

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You nailed it.

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So there is, there has to be like,
if someone can smile at their captor

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or use their vocal prosy to calm
them down there, there has to be

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some sort of ventral activation.

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So Yeah.

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And it's very much a
one way thing, I think.

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Um, the, the person appeasing and
using those strategies is getting

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their needs met, but they're not,
they're not receiving co-regulation.

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It's, it's very much a
one- I'm giving you this.

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And the person, the captor or the abuser,
they're receiving it, um, not consciously.

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They're not like feeling empathy and love.

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They're like, it's not like that.

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But they're, their defensive activation
must come down enough to just, you

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know, get through that situation.

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The way I think about this, and I don't
know how to talk about this honestly,

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so I'll, I'll try and I'll stumble.

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In my mind though,

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what, what, when we get deep enough
into a shutdown state, when, when

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our, what, this is my assumption.

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I have no evidence for this.

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This is how I think about it.

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Okay.

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When we get deep enough into shutdown,
there's, there's dissociation.

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We disconnect from ourselves and
that could lead to, in severe cases,

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um, dissociative identity disorder
that could lead to derealization

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depersonalization, like really just
disconnected from the self, but.

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But we still have to function.

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We still have to get our needs met.

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We can't live in a dissociated state
very long at all, like a truly, you

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know, dissociated or lemme start over.

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When we, when we truly shut
down, we collapse, we play dead.

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We cannot survive in that state.

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So our bodies, human bodies in
particular, seem to have this ability

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to disconnect from what's happening.

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So even though it's a huge shutdown
psychologically or in our brain,

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somehow we can- we can dissociate
and then keep going somehow.

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And through that dissociation, we
can actually take on what looks

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to be like a new personality.

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So that person who's a to me, that the
person who's appeasing, they're, they're

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so disconnected from their authentic self.

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They, they have to take
on this new personality.

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I dunno how else to say it.

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This new system- value, way of
thinking, way of feeling, way of acting.

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They take on these, all
these new behaviors in order

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to survive the situation.

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I think the same thing is true
for someone who's in fawn.

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They're, they're just deeply disconnected
from their grounded true self.

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I don't like to get that phrase,
but I don't know how else to say it.

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So to me it's like once you get
deep enough into shutdown or deep

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enough into dis dissociation, you
still have to get your needs met.

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You still gotta go to work, you still
gotta appe- you still have to survive

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in some situation that's horrible.

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You gotta go to school.

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And so it's to, to me, it acts as like
a, a, a, a slate- like a clean slate.

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It's not, but it's almost like,
here's the first level of me.

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I can't be this in this situation.

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So shut down, wipes that away.

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And here's a new level, level two,
which is very compromised and is now

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appeasing or fawning because I, I
gotta survive, but this is not me.

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And so once I get outta that situation,
once I can get help and self-regulate

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this level two person goes away.

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Now we're back to level one.

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But now level one has this shutdown,
it has to deal with; this true self.

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Now this, this self has to deal
with all that pain that it went

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through and dis- dissociated from.

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And that's where a whole due level of
like self-regulation has to come in.

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But that's just me.

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That's just the way I'm thinking about it.

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I have no evidence to, no
polyvagal evidence to back that up.

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That that's just how I think about it.

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Maybe it's better as a metaphor.

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If someone is well regulated,
in situations or with potential,

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um, predators, they would feel
and push back against that.

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But if it's a situation they can't escape,
or if they were raised in a situation

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they couldn't escape, couldn't fight from,
couldn't even successfully shut down in,

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well, what other option do they have?

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But to kind of like give themselves
this dissociative blank slate

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and bring in a new personality.

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Although sometimes I do think it is
a literal new personality, but it

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just to get through the day, to get
through until they get to safety.

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It's almost like a, I don't
know how to talk about it.

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It's almost like a reset.

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It's like, um, version two.

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But version one's still there.

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It's just like way deep down and
we have to go through version

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two to get back to version one.

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I find that fascinating.

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How does this relate to
unstucking, recovery, and going

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from version 1 to version 2?

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I wish I had a great answer,
but I don't have enough.

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Um, I've worked with
people who are dissociated.

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But not, well, actually, that's not true.

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I've worked with a couple people
that have severe dissociation.

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If someone who's in level two, like
severe dissociation and has this new

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almost personality, would they be able
to, I don't know if they'd be able

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to use the, they need literal safety.

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Okay, great.

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So now once they have literal safety,
um, would they be able to self-regulate?

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Would they be able, I do- like,
they'd have to come outta that severe

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dissociation first, and then once they
do that and then reconnected their

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body, well, crap, now we gotta deal,
deal with all this shutdown stuff.

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And that's gonna be severe because it's,
it's connected to numerous longstanding,

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uh, trauma- traumatic incidents probably.

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And then once you come outta shutdown,
now there's gonna, well, it probably

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wouldn't even be just shutdown.

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There'd probably be a ton or freeze too.

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So it's like, I think the level
two-ish kind of thing, my assumption

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would be that there's not a
whole lot of state exploration.

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It needs to have literal safety.

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And then can we slowly reconnect
with the present moment?

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Probably not in a lot of safety,
but like can we reconnect with

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just the literal objective world?

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And then can we start slowly
building towards the internal world?

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And then if we can do that, then we could
start doing some self-regulation stuff.

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But that would be a, a
long process probably.

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Yeah.

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With this one client that came to mind
and she had a severe dissociation and

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for and with good cause, um, what helped
hers start to come out of it and we

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would meet and like later on she'd say,
I have no idea what we talked about.

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And I couldn't tell because she
was so functionally good at it.

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You know, functionally she
could come across like, yeah,

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I'm here, but she wasn't here.

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So we'd meet the next week and, and
she say, I, I remember coming in here.

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But beyond that, I don't
know what we talked about.

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So with her, this dissociation was
so high that we just had to practice

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literally connecting to like, what's
happening in this room right now?

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What colors do you see,
what can you touch?

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Sensory kind of things.

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And that, that was a process.

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Took a while.

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Then we had worked on feeling actual
safety and that was quite a challenge,

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but she finally identified a blanket that
felt good and so we felt that mindfully.

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And then from there we built
into other safety pieces and um,

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and some actual self-regulation.

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And she got to a point where she was
much more empowered, going to college.

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Was presence, was able
to put boundaries in.

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Like, she made huge progress.

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And, uh, she, she did good.

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But I, I, I guess the point is
it was like, literally, can we

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just be, can we just be present?

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Not even like mindfully,
but it's like, are you here?

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You know?

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It's not even like a
deep mindful exploration.

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It's just, are you here or not?

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Can you name, can you, you know,
feel things, I mean, tactically

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I have my fidget basket.

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Thank you so much for joining
me on Stuck Not Broken.

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Like I said, fawn and appeasement are
areas where I tend to deviate from

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the official Polyvagal teachings.

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I see them as behavioral adaptations
to a prolonged severe dissociative

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shutdown or freeze state.

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But what do you think?

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I've also created a free resource
for you in the member center that may

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help you keep track of the official
Polyvagal primary and mixed states.

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It's the Polyvagal One Pagers, and
it'll help you to understand the

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Polyvagal theory, foundational elements,
including the primary and mixed states.

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I will have the download
for you in the description.

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You can also download all my free
stuff in the member center, which I'll

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also link for you in the description.

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Thanks again so much for joining me.

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Bye.