Welcome to Home Education Matters, the weekly podcast supporting you on your home education journey.

Hello and welcome to another episode of Home Education Matters.

And today's episode is talking about parents rights when it comes to home education.

And I'm really pleased to be joined by Wendy Charles Warner, who is the patron of Education Otherwise.

And Wendy, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.

Perhaps to start off you could tell our listeners just a little bit about you and your home education journey.

Oh goodness me, yes.

I first came to home education in the early 1980s when my then little girl said to me, mommy, please don't ever make me go to school again.

And I said, okay sweetheart.

And underneath I was like the proverbial duck.

Panic, panic, panic.

Is this even legal?

I was a legal professional and I did not know and so I rushed off to my law books, found the act, found it was legal and thought okay then there was a reason behind it.

But she'd been in a lovely little independent school which had closed and we couldn't find another place for her and I didn't know that there was another option and the only place available was in a huge state school with significant difficulties and she lasted 10 days of being attacked, physically assaulted and various other things.

And that little girl is now a very high flying professional woman, really quite high up her particular professional tree.

And my I've home educated children, I've home educated my grandchildren and I'm currently doing A levels with another grandchild which is quite daunting.

I've taken children all the way through to degree level but I've never done A levels with any child so the A levels are more daunting than the degree was.

But I joined education otherwise as a member many, many years ago, but never ever as a trustee until the opportunity was given to me some years ago to actually make a difference.

And I joined as a trustee.

I was the chair for several years until handing on last month to someone younger and fitter than me.

And it's very, very important to me that we all recognise that we need to work together in the best interests of the child.

My ethos has always been I am never going to be a wall, I am always going to be a bridge.

I and a bridge which is there sometimes it's a bridge over troubled waters, to quote the old song, where there is a problem between a parent and a local authority, very often it comes down to misunderstanding and if you become confrontational that misunderstanding can become worse.

Whereas if you act as a bridge and liaise and talk and Try and find out where the problem lies.

Very often you can resolve it for the parent, and the parent and the child are better off for that.

So, as I say, to me, we should be bridges, not walls.

And that's how Education Otherwise operates.

Education Otherwise, for those who don't know, is the home education charity.

It was founded in 1976.

It's our 50th anniversary next year, and we're to have a lovely event.

We've got all sorts of things going on at the event, including Big Wheels, carousels, all sorts of things.

And we're really excited about that.

Yes, because I know that early on, like, very early on, Education Otherwise was about the only thing around.

And didn't.

Didn't they used to send out newsletters or something like.

Like by post once a week or something?

Yes, yes, the charity used to send out regular newsletters.

Members can actually access virtually all of our old newsletters online in the member section.

We put them online last year and I actually did that, and going through them, looking to check there was nothing in them.

I had to read every newsletter to check there was nothing in them that caused difficulties for anyone.

And it was quite an experience.

And you can also find more about our history.

We.

We have a book, 50 Years of Education Otherwise, which covers the history of the development of home education from the very start, cavemen and women and their children, right through to late last year when it was published.

So, yes, a lot of things.

We've been around a long time.

Yeah, it's really interesting.

Part of me desperately wants to ask you, like, what big changes you've noticed, but I'm really aware that I have a terrible habit of going off on Segways on podcasts, so I'm going to attempt to stay true to our subject.

So let's.

Let's talk.

You mentioned about your legal background.

Let's talk about the actual law when it comes to home education first.

And before we talk about rights, let's talk about.

Although I'm guessing when you're talking about rights, you're kind of talking about legal rights as well.

But let's talk about the law, because so many of us, when our children get a little bit older, when they're young, people just assume they're maybe, you know, below school age or whatever.

But I know that it hits an age when they're about 7 or 8, where you start getting the.

Is that even legal?

Like, can you actually even do that?

And I think since COVID there's a lot less of that, which is a Bit of a bonus, but even so, you still do get that question sometimes.

So what is the law when it comes to home education?

Okay, well, there are various aspects of law, and law isn't just legislation.

Quite often people don't appreciate that the law is made up of legislation, regulation, statutory guidance and legal precedent.

Legal precedent you might know as case law.

But basically what it comes down to is home education has always been legal in this country, save for a tiny period starting in 1918.

In 1944, the Education Act, Section 7 arrived.

37 was part of it.

We now have the Education Act 1996.

And what Section 7 of that act says is that it's the duty of the parent to ensure that the child receives a suitable education, whether at school or otherwise.

Now, that otherwise is what makes home education legal.

So in other words, the parent can elect to send their child to school to discharge their duty, or they can choose not to do so and do it by other means.

And otherwise can mean home education.

It can mean you're still legally home educated.

If you use a tutoring company, you could use online education, you're still legally home educating.

So that's what makes it legal.

Now, people will often say, it's my absolute right to home educate.

And the law doesn't quite say that, and we'll come to that shortly.

Now, it's always the duty of the parent to ensure that the education is suitable.

And it is the parent's duty, regardless of whether they send the child to school.

In theory, parent could actually be sued by their child once they become an adult for sending them to a failing school.

Doesn't happen, but in theory it could.

But the local authority has some duty of oversight.

Now, that comes from.

Originally it came from legal precedent, which was a case called Phillips vs. Brown in 1980.

Now, the local authority has to act if it appears that the education is not suitable.

And that's The Education Act 1996, section 437, 438 and 439 are associated, but it's basically section 437.

If it appears to the local authority that the education is not suitable, it should serve a formal notice on the parent to satisfy it that the education is suitable.

Now, that doesn't mean to say that the local authority has a duty to ensure that the education is suitable.

And guidance often uses that word incorrectly.

It's the parent's duty to ensure.

But what it does mean is that the local authority has a right to ask.

Now, people used to believe prior to 1980 that the local authority could only ask about education if they already felt that it may not be suitable.

But what the judge in that case, Lord Donaldson, found was if you have to act, if the education is not suitable, then you need to be aware of whether or not it is.

And therefore the local authority has a right to act.

And that is an informal inquiry.

Now, it's split into two sections and this is somewhere where some of the worst local authorities there are a few, there are not many, but there are a few that don't get things right.

And they treat all inquiries as formal inquiries.

But that is not legally correct.

So an initial inquiry is informal.

There is no duty whatsoever on the parent to respond to that inquiry.

But if they do not do so, and this is the same case, Phillips vs. Brown, if they give no reply or they just say, yep, everything's okay here, then the local authority is allowed to assume that the education is not suitable and move to formal status.

If the parent replies, they can do it by meeting the local authority, having a phone call, sending in a report, interpretive dance, whatever works for them.

And the local authority has to properly and reasonably consider that information and act only if it appears after considering that information that the education is not suitable.

So you then move on a step.

That's informal inquiries.

If the local authority gets to the point where it thinks that the education may not be suitable, that is the point where it serves a notice under section 437 of the Act.

And that's colloquially known as a notice to satisfy.

And the reason for that is once that notice is served, then things go a little bit about turn.

That makes it the duty of the parent to satisfy the local authority that the education is not suitable.

If the parent provides information that satisfies the local authority, that's the end of the matter.

If the parent doesn't, then the local authority can move on to serving a school attendance order.

If you'd like me to cover what happens next, I can do so.

If a school attendance order is served, that does not force a child into school, it orders the parent to register the child in a school.

Nobody else can register the child in a school except where there is a care order.

The local authority has parental responsibility, and those are rare cases.

So it orders the parent to register the child in the school.

If the parent chooses not to do so, the local authority can prosecute the parent.

And they're not prosecuting the parent for not providing a suitable education, they're prosecuting the parent for failing to comply with the school attendance Order.

And if you want the act, it's section 443 of the Education Act.

So the parent is then taken to court.

And peculiarly, although they're being prosecuted for non compliance, there is only one defence for the parent and that defence is that the education is suitable.

Now, it doesn't quite sit, but law is often like that.

Law is often a little bit quirky.

And so at that point the parent can give information to the court.

It's usually a magistrate's court.

They can persuade the court that the education actually is suitable.

And if they succeed in doing so, then that's the end of the matter.

But strangely, there is no requirement on the court to dismiss the school attendance order at that point.

And there should be because the parent has been found not to be guilty.

But there isn't.

But the local authority cannot act on it because the parent has been found not guilty.

So if that happens, then if the local authority has concerns again in the future, they have to start at the beginning with informal inquiries.

If the parent is found guilty of failing to comply with the school attendance order, that doesn't make the child go to school.

What it does is make the parent subject to a fine as the punishment possibly cost.

They might be ordered to pay the costs of the prosecution and the child is still not in school.

So what happens?

The local authority will then ask for information and start from the beginning again.

There are ways that the local authority can get around that.

For example, it can apply for a parenting order against the parent and that gives the local authority powers because they can ask the court to put conditions on that parenting order and a parenting order can be enforced.

So if the parenting order says the child must go to school and the parent doesn't do it, the parents could be taken to court and prosecuted under the parenting order rather than the education.

So that's how the law works.

Okay, so that runs us all the way through from sort of informal inquiries right at the start through to a possible parent order right at the very, very end.

It sounds to me like there's many opportunities within that process to sort of pull back or to kind of slow the process down or even get out of the process.

What is the kind of timescale of that process?

I don't know much about the legal system.

Are we talking about months?

Years?

How long is a piece of string is the answer really?

It depends on where you live.

There is a time scale for certain aspects and then there is what is known as reasonable and proportionate.

It isn't reasonable and proportionate to make an informal inquiry of a parent and ask for response the next day.

But it's generally accepted that two to three weeks for a response is reasonable.

So you've got that period.

Then if the parent hasn't given information, there is legal precedent that says that the local authority should provide information to the parent about what their concerns are and give the parent opportunity to respond.

So that generally takes another two or three weeks to deal with that.

So if we take a case of a parent who makes no response whatsoever, that's the quickest case.

So the local authority would ask informally.

No response.

About three weeks later they will ask again.

No response.

Two to three weeks later they will serve a Section 437 notice.

And that actually has a statutory 15 day response time.

Now, 15 days doesn't mean 15 days in law, it means 16 because you have to allow a day for postage.

Traditionally it's common to that.

So on the 16th day the local authority could serve the notice to the parent to select a school failing which the local authority will nominate asep school.

So if that isn't responded to usually within a couple of weeks, a school attendance order is served usually within two to three weeks.

If that's not being responded to, a very rapid local authority will then serve school attendance order.

Then they have to give the parent time to comply with that.

So that's another couple of weeks, then they have to prosecute.

And then so even if the local authority did everything as rapidly as possible, you're talking thereabout about around the three month mark, you get to that mark, you file the papers in the court.

And I'm aware of a court hearing that's taking place this week where the papers were filed just over a year ago.

I'm aware of cases that have been two years later and I'm also aware of hearings that have been set within a fortnight.

So it can be any length of time and it's not unusual for it to be a long time.

The first hearing in court is a hearing for plea which the parent will plead guilty or not guilty.

If the parent pleads not guilty, the case will go to trial.

And that's the trial is the delay period.

The courts are often very backed up and it's been an increasing problem since COVID courts being heavily backed up and hearings being delayed a long time.

But I'd like to be really, really clear here.

Nationally, when I surveyed, only 2.25% of parents actually ever end up with school attendance orders.

Most of those cases never go to court.

If you take out one particular local authority whose practice is, shall we say, frowned upon, it drops down to 1.9%.

So only 1.9% of home educating parents will on average receive a school attendance order.

Now, looking at the normal curve of distribution, by far the majority of people fall in the middle.

You get some excellent and you get those that 1 or 2% at the very bottom.

So that figure actually sits well with normal statistical distribution and is to be expected.

Of those cases that are taken to court, 60% of cases are found in favour of the parent.

Now the main reason for that is very often cases taken to court are taken by one or two local authorities that do so on, shall we say, tenuous grounds.

But those cases where the parent hasn't previously provided information and they provide information at the court are often found in the parent's favour because the problem was the lack of information.

So that's how it works.

So you're saying that just to be clear, you're saying that around 2% get to court?

No, around 2% receive school attendance orders.

Oh, so this is even before court.

So 2% get the school attendance order and then if they ignore that and then it goes to court.

So that's an even lower percentage, I'm guessing, that actually goes to court.

Yes, much, much lower.

Because the majority of parents, when they receive a school attendance order, if they haven't provided information, information prior to that date, work with the local authority, provide information and the school of attendance order is revoked.

It's very often where there has been a lack of information.

So it's a tiny percentage that actually end up in a courtroom.

By far, the majority of parents happily home educate without any of that happening.

They stay within that informal inquiry where the majority will always stay out of interest.

And just in my curiosity, how many are we talking a year then that you know of that go to court?

Because I don't even know how many home educators there are because it's such a diffuse kind of thing that we don't tend to have really, really strict figures for it.

So how many do you know of on average that go to court that actually end up in court every year?

Okay, so if you look at how many home educated children arbor, There are roughly 3 to 4% who are unknown to the local authority and those are children who come into the country from abroad and the local authority hasn't become aware of them.

Or children who have commenced home education prior to reaching age 5 and the local authority hasn't been aware of them.

Those are the main things.

So if you look at roughly 96 or 97% of children are known to the local authority and the last date for when I have statistics, it was just under 113,000 children.

So you're looking at, say, probably, say, do a rough estimate, let's say 120,000.

And that's a large estimate, it's probably less than that.

So say 120,000.

So 2% of those are going to end up with school attendance order.

So that's 2,400.

Sorry, I was doing it on a calculator, so I didn't make a fool of myself.

So that's roughly 2,400 school attendance orders per year.

I would estimate that fewer than 20% of those actually end up in the courtroom.

That's working on data that I've got that's a couple of years old, but it could have fluctuated.

The cohort of home educated children has changed dramatically in the last few years.

In 2024, 54% of children coming new to home education were children whose parents did not want to home educate but felt that the school was not meeting the child's special needs, mental health needs and most usually both.

So they've come to home education reluctantly.

They are not first choice home educators or even second choice home educators who've learned about it and choose it for a positive reason.

And as a result, those families tend to be families who've had difficulties with attendance with the child because of the child's needs, they've had problems with the school.

They're more likely to have difficulties when they come to home education, not because they are not doing their best, but because they've already had problems and they have children often with complex needs and they tend to be looked at more closely.

So the numbers actually receiving school attendance orders could be increasing.

But that statistic, I haven't analyzed it yet, the government used not to collate statistics and I did it twice yearly up to the beginning of this year.

But the government is now collecting the statistics.

So let them do the work and I will analyse it when they come in.

But they won't come in for a few weeks yet.

Interesting.

So from my sort of like not great maths, if 2,400 approximately get a school attendance order and about 20% of those go to court, you're still talking about 500 people, aren't you?

Which is quite a lot.

Yeah, it's 500 children, so you're talking roughly 300 parents.

Because it works out roughly around the 60% as a multiplier so about 300 parents do end up in court, but that's, it's within the ram.

It's a very low number.

If you look at the normal statistical curve distribution logically, any cohort of people you look at, civil servants, MPs, doctors, nurses, anybody, you are going to have that normal curve of distribution.

Some are absolutely fabulous, some are really good.

By far the majority land in the middle.

Some are, yeah, not quite as good as you'd like, but okay.

And that tiny percentage at the bottom are just not good enough.

So statistically you expect 1 to 2% to fall into that tiny percentage.

So actually those numbers going to court, given the number involved, aren't statistically high.

But that still represents hundreds of very scared parents who aren't quite sure often why this got there, what would be.

For the people who.

And as you say, it's a very small amount actually, when you think about it statistically, for those parents that are facing the prospect of going to court, and I know every circumstance will be different, but is there one piece of advice you would generally give that you think is a sort of good general piece of advice for parents who may find themselves in that situation?

Yes, absolutely.

The most important thing you can do as soon as you receive the notice is start collating information.

Gather what's.

What I would refer to as a scrapbook diary.

So write down everything your child does.

Keep a diary throughout each day, even if you have to do it for weeks of what your child learns.

We often forget that the child is learning because it's part of life when you're home educating.

So say, for example, you get up in the morning and your, your child says, says to you, you've got your five year old who says, mummy, where did my poo go?

And you explain to them that it goes down and the water makes it flow down some pipes and then it goes to a sewerage works, that's education.

If they come downstairs and they say, can I have chocolate for breakfast?

And you explain to them that chocolate, chocolate isn't good for breakfast because it's full of sugar and you need something that gives you lots of vitamins and minerals, that's education.

So if a parent notes everything that they can find education in, in a scrapbook diary, the scrapbook bit being photographs of the child doing things or events the child has gone to, that parent can then lie.

But they courtroom door with this wonderful scrapbook diary which they should have photocopied to give a copy to the magistrates and they can present that and the Local authority prosecuting officer who sat outside the court with them may look at that and say, okay, we'll agree to withdraw.

And that happens.

If they don't, once they go through the courtroom, then they can present that information to the magistrates.

And the magistrates aren't legal professionals, they're ordinary men and women and they are going to be looking at what is presented to them on that basis in a common sense way.

Does this represent a suitable education?

Gosh, if this child has learnt abcde, and this is only two or three weeks worth, that can often win a case for a parent.

So scrapbook diary of every scrap of education.

Yes, it's time consuming, yes, it's stressful.

But not as time consuming and stressful as dealing with the aftermath of being prosecuted and found guilty.

Yeah, I see that.

So towards the end of the process, it is the judge that decides if the education is suitable or not.

If you get to the court process and then in the middle of the process that you talk about, the LA decides if the education is suitable.

And right at the very start, the parents are proving that the education is suitable.

So let's talk about that middle bit, which is when the LA are going to.

They've submitted their.

Make sure I get my wording right.

They submitted their formal inquiry and then you give your information and that's when the LA decides if it's suitable or not.

Now you.

What about this process?

So is there any advice you would give to home educating parents for this section?

So that's the middle section.

When they've gone and the LA has asked for formal, has put forward a formal inquiry, what advice would you give parents then.

Prior to formal inquiry, prior to receiving a Section 437 notice, the parents can can submit anything in the way that they want.

Post that.

You will be advised if you go online, people will say to you, don't share copies of the child's work, don't do this, don't do that.

You've got the right to not do that.

And my best piece of advice for a parent is think about this, what you value most, protecting your right to not share a copy of your child's work or not ending up in a criminal courtroom.

Think about why you are not doing or you are doing what you're doing.

So consider, is there a way that I can satisfy the local authority that feels not too difficult for me and sits right with me?

So, for example, if the local authority has told you its concerns are that the child doesn't appear to have made progress in maths then and you happen to have a download from a website the child uses or you've got even a little recording of the child, say a six or seven year old who's saying that, the times tables out loud, whatever you've got, if that might satisfy the local authority, why would a parent think, I've got a right not to do this and put themselves through the rest of the stress, Just bite your tongue, swallow your pride and do it.

Now a lot of parents don't want to do that.

And if you are intent on going through court to the court on appointed principle, then that's fine, that's your choice.

But for most parents who land in that situation, that that isn't how they feel, they're just desperate to sort it out.

So whatever works for you as an individual, do it.

Don't listen to people saying to you, never do this, never do that.

What matters is what's right for you as an individual parent and that is the correct way forward.

Now very, very often parents get to that point not because the education's bad, but because they haven't known how to present it or they've failed to present it because, you know, parents role isn't persuading somebody that something is right.

Their role is to be a darn good parent or the best parent they can be.

And not every parent is a wordsmith.

So they might be trying to explain something.

They'll go onto a Facebook group and they'll be told, keep it in writing, write a report that might be a parent who's dyslexic or who finds writing really difficult and they might have sent information in that actually doesn't cover what they need to cover.

So get what you're sending checked.

We do a checking service for our members and what we're looking for is has the parent covered what the child is doing, how they are doing it, how the child is engaged with what they're learning and what progress the child has made.

Now progress isn't linear.

Progress can be like this.

But every child makes some progress.

It leaps, bounds, lumps, bumps, they make progress.

So if the parent hasn't described those things, then that is what they should try to do.

Giving detail.

Ask the local authority what specific concerns they have, if they haven't already said so.

But it's very, very important to remember that at that point you're under a legal duty to satisfy the local authority.

And it may be done simply by meeting for 10 minutes in a cafe and saying the local authority officer saying to you, well my Actual concern was that I wasn't sure the child was actually doing the work you're describing, because some people get third parties to write their reports, some use AI and it writes a load of gobbledygook.

So actually going there with the child who says, hello, my name's Anne, look what I've been doing, Bingo, you've solved it.

That might work for you as a parent.

If it doesn't, don't do it.

If your child doesn't want to meet someone, don't do it.

But do look at what works for you, not what somebody is telling you is right.

They're not you.

Yeah, that makes complete sense and I think it's really good advice.

I think that section there where they're asking for formal inquiries, I agree that that isn't a time to be sort of saying, oh, I'm not going to provide example work because I know that I'm not really meant to in inverted commas, because it's bad for the home education community generally, obviously, just to sort of cycle back onto that one.

I think generally that advice is given perhaps for the first stage, the informal inquiry stage, because there's the.

I know there's the idea in home education that if some parents offer examples of work, then it puts the onus on other parents who aren't and it makes them look like maybe they should be doing that.

So there's almost a sense of protecting the community, which I think is perhaps more valid in that very first informal inquiry stage.

Yes, yes, it can.

That can be more valid in informal inquiries.

But what you've got to remember is, yes, there is a very strong argument for the fact that if increasingly parents say, for example, let's be ridiculous, give the local authority their firstborn, there will legitimise an expectation that other parents will do that.

But there are parents for whom taking a certain approach is actually traumatising.

Parents who've been subject to domestic abuse, who've been through the court system, for example, with an abusive ex partner, asking them to write something, a formal report is no different.

You're taking them back psychologically, they've often got ptsd and you're taking them back to psychologically, to being in that courtroom and how that felt to them.

And it's an incredibly damaging thing for them.

So what you've got to do is temper what is good for the community with individuals needs.

Because, for example, it's a bit like the Equality Act.

We all go shopping, if we all go into a shop and 99% of you are Perfectly fit and healthy and you can get around obstacles and climb up the stairs to the entrance, that's fine.

But you shouldn't be telling somebody in a wheelchair that they have to climb up the stairs when they cannot do so because they are not you.

And so we've got to bear in mind that for some individuals it just doesn't work that way.

But absolutely there is a strong argument, there are all sorts of things actually going on to the subject of rights.

There are lots of things that crop up with parents rights, and one of those is, I'm not going to give you copies of work because my child owns the copyright and has the right to say yes or no.

They're absolutely correct.

Copyright doesn't have an age limit.

Of course the child owns the copyright.

So what the local authority should be saying is, okay, that's fine, I agree.

I accept that you're right.

How would you like to tell me about your education?

So it comes back to the parent has to find a way that's right for them to provide information about the education.

The local authority has an absolute right to ask and the parent has no duty to respond.

And because of that, the parent has a right to respond in the way that suits them.

So I said very early on it might be by means of interpretive dance.

I actually know a parent who's done that successfully and there are so many ways.

Let's actually talk about that first section then.

So this is before formal inquiries.

This is probably the most common interaction that home educated parents will have with the la.

And that is that very first interaction where let's call it a report, because this is generally how home educators tend to see it when they're asked for a report.

So this is the informal inquiry.

There's no obligation on them to respond, but I know it's generally recommended that you do respond if you can.

And so what would be your advice for parents for that very first interaction with the local authority when they're asking, okay, show us that you're providing a suitable education.

This really comes down to very, very simple things.

The local authority is entitled to look at certain things and to cover those.

You want to cover certain aspects in a report, but the parent can also, if the parent has a deeply held philosophical belief in home education, for example, they should explain that.

So you use an introduction in the report.

Explain your deeply held philosophical belief.

Now, not many parents do, but if you do, you explain it.

If you don't, then you explain your aims in home education.

The reason for that is a legal Precedent that says that education has to be suitable and it has to be efficient and various different things.

And one legal precedent says that it should achieve what it sets out to achieve.

So you've got to set out your store by saying what the aims of your education are.

What are you trying to achieve?

Now, that might be for some children.

Little Johnny wants to be an engineer and therefore he needs to get science GCSEs.

He needs to do this various different things.

So how are you facilitating Johnny learning that Edna might want to be a nuclear physicist?

How are you facilitating that Fred might want to be a ballet dancer?

How you help it facilitating that?

So it's about what you're setting out to achieve.

Now, a five year old might want to be a tractor driver one week and a doctor the next week and a spaceman the next week.

But the day you write the report, if he wants to be a tractor or she wants a driver or she wants to be a tractor driver, you say, currently Fred wants to be a tractor driver, although this changes regularly due to to his age.

In order to accommodate this, we set out to expose him to as much information about tractors as we can.

So you're saying this is what I'm going to achieve and this is the sort of way I do it.

So it's your general introduction.

Now, home education has to be suitable to the individual child's age, ability, aptitude and special needs.

How can you explain it's suitable if you don't explain the individual child?

So you then need to give some detail about the child.

So, for example, Fred is a lively five year old who enjoys the outside, tractors, cars and other vehicles.

He's not keen on sitting down and doing blah, blah.

So you give a little bit of information.

If the child's got special needs, you explain and outline what those special needs are.

But please, please, please don't do it at too much length.

The local authority is not entitled or nor should they be given complex medical information.

What they need to know is what is the need and how does it affect the education?

I've seen reports in which two pages were allocated to explaining bowel difficulties.

The local authority doesn't need that.

What they need is Fred has dyslexia and therefore finds reading and writing very difficult.

So they want to know, does this child have a need which creates an educational challenge?

So you cover that in the about the child.

The local authority has an absolute right to ask for information about literacy and numeracy.

That comes from the case Harrison v. Harrison Harrison Harrison versus the United Kingdom.

Sorry, a lady called Iris Harrison.

Now, what that means is you have got to give detail about literacy and numeracy.

That doesn't mean to say you should be writing, you know.

Fred sat down and did a test sheet and a workshop.

It can be learning through life.

Say, for example, the child is unschooled.

That child must still be gaining numeracy and literacy skills.

So you have to detail how they're doing it.

And you would explain that, for example, it might be by.

Fred has started paying for his own purchases at the shop.

For example, he wanted to buy a Lego set.

He.

He had saved up such and such an amount in his bank account.

He looked online to see what the best value was and decided that the best value was at a local shop called Mr. Jones's Shop.

Fred went there, paid with a 20 pound note and was able to calculate that he should have one peak change because Lego's so darned expensive.

So you can explain it, but you've got to detail numeracy and literacy.

Now, literacy is not just reading and writing.

Literacy is conversation, it's theatre, it's discussion about facts.

That's not just conversation, it's talking about things that you see.

Reading signs to the child, it's exposing the child to text, it's reading to the child.

Literacy is much more wide ranging.

So if your child is not reading and writing, that does not mean to say they're not gaining literacy skills.

So local authorities are not entitled to expect a parent to be providing a broad and balanced curriculum.

Some ask for it, they're not entitled to it.

That is the regulation for independent schools.

But if you are not providing broad learning to your child, it's possible that that education may not be suitable because the child's understanding could be restricted.

So if you're using sort of workbooks and subject style approach, set your report out subject by subject, using the subjects and explaining what the child is doing, how they're doing it, how they engage with the learning and any progress they're making and engaging with the learning is simply like things like.

Fred was really excited to go to the Imperial War Museum because he was interested in seeing X Guns.

Fred saw this and compared it too.

So you're talking about the engagement.

Even if you use an unschooling style, you can break it down by subjects.

And if you can, it's helpful because that's how local authorities think.

It makes it easier for them if you are unschooling.

I've seen some wonderful reports that the whole report is just A story of how a child developed a project and you can do it that way.

But in that report, refer to things.

For example, if, if the child's project is building a roller coaster in the garden.

I use that because we did it.

How did the child source the wood?

Did the child look where the wood came from?

What sort of piping did they use?

And how did they decide?

How did they decide the angles?

Did they work out how much it would cost?

Did they work out the physics of it?

Did they look at how it was going to get here, the geography of it?

And you can take a project and you can present those aspects.

You also need to make clear that the child is getting some form of social opportunity.

Now, you can give a child social opportunity and they won't take advantage of it, but you should be giving them the opportunity.

So the local authority is entitled to know whether or not that child is locked in a room with, you know, or up a chimney.

So it will want to know whether the child has social opportunities.

So it's worth mentioning.

Fred goes to home education groups twice a week.

He loves going to the park where he meets other children.

He has friends, including a best friend who he often plays with.

And the reason for that is you then tick their box is that this one isn't a safeguarding risk.

They're getting social opportunity.

They're not restricted.

They also will want to know about resources.

So at the end, a resources list.

Resources list.

Fred has a laptop, iPad, whatever.

And if you say a book, for example, cpg Maths for Beginners, put what level it is.

Because if your child's 12 and it's a book for age 5, it's not right necessarily.

It might be for some 12 year olds.

If the child's 5 and it's a key stage 3 book, it's pretty amazing.

Support it, support the level.

So that's what you need to include.

Okay.

So it sounds to me like it's about offering information and balancing how much you give.

I'm guessing you're talking a couple of pages of A4 or something like that.

As a general rule, it used to be that a couple of pages of A4 would be adequate for most local authorities.

Nowadays, you're probably looking at around three and a half, four.

Okay.

And you mentioned also earlier on that there are a couple of particular las that are harder to deal with for those.

Should you have a different approach and what are those las?

Because I know that people listening are going to be like, is this my la?

Do I need to be Worried about it.

For example, the former Triborough local authorities will not, not accept a report from a parent.

They will insist on meeting.

They will not accept a report.

They have been told that that's not legal, but they included by the former chair of the Education Committee.

They still insist on doing it.

They still insist that they're right to do so.

What was the name of that local authority?

Sorry, former Triborough.

Now Triborough was.

It was Westminster, Hammersmith and Fulham and, hold on a second, Kensington and Chelsea.

So that's Westminster, Hammersmith and Fulham and Kensington and Chelsea.

They have been difficult for at least 12 years now.

If you stand your ground and dig your heels in, they will eventually say to you, okay, we will accept a report from a third party professional directly involved with, with the child's education.

Very, very rarely would they do so.

They will normally find a reason not to do so.

The most difficult local authority parents tell us is Portsmouth.

Portsmouth.

I've seen them refuse 200 page reports.

I've seen them serve school attendance orders on parents who've shown them a stack that high of workbooks.

They have an ethos of children are better off in school.

Home education is wrong.

They're looking for replication of school at home.

And high proportions of parents in that area do end up being taken to court.

If you live in that area, the best advice I can give to you is respond to every single communication, provide information which is reasonable in response to it.

Just expect to end up in court if you don't say how high when they say jump.

And when you do end up in court, present your case well.

And a lot of parents in Portsmouth do win their cases, although some don't.

Okay, that's interesting to know.

So when it comes to parents rights, is there anything that we haven't covered there, do you think?

Yes, absolutely.

Parents often believe that they have an absolute right to home educate.

But in this country we have different rights.

We have rights that are absolute and we have rights that are qualified rights.

What that means is that a qualified right is a right that you hold, provided it doesn't break another person's rights or the law.

So a parent has an absolute right to home educate, provided that the home education is suitable.

Now, if the home education is not suitable, the parent can lose that right to home educate and the child can become subject to a school attendance order.

So it isn't your right to home educate, it's your qualified right to home educate.

Now we have another section of parents, parents whose child is in a special school by arrangement with the local authority.

If your child goes to an independent school and it's because you've registered them there, you pay the fees and it's your choice, this doesn't apply.

But if the child's EHCP named a special school and the child attends that school school because the local authority arranged it, then there is a legal requirement under a regulation for you to seek consent if you wish to remove your child from the school role.

Now, there's something very interesting about this that doesn't mean to say you can't just start home educating your child because a special school place is an offer, it's not a legal duty.

Therefore, legally, the parent can actually start home educating, ask for consent to remove from the role.

But if they do that and the local authority decides not to give consent, then the parent can be Prosecuted under section 444 of the Education act for failing to ensure the child support attendance at the school.

But there is actually nothing legally to stop you commencing home education straight away.

You need consent to remove from the role.

The local authority cannot unreasonably withhold that consent.

And if it does, you can appeal to the Secretary of State.

So you do have a right.

Even with a child in a special school.

Something that causes confusion is if a child has an EHCP which names a special school, or if the child is in a PRU or the child is in a special unit in a mainstream school, you do not need permission to remove the child from the school role.

It's only if it's in a special school by arrangement of the local authority.

Another aspect of that is it is the parent's right to choose whether to register the child.

So if your child's EHCP names a special school or a mainstream school that does not register the child and the local authority cannot register the child.

Some schools put the child on the register.

That is not legal.

They cannot do that.

I think that that probably covers the bits we haven't covered.

I wanted to ask you just to finish up, having seen the home education community over the last 45 years, I guess.

40, 45 years.

Right.

What would you say, looking at, and you mentioned a little bit earlier on, about the shift between what in my head I kind of see as ideological home educators and it's more reluctant home educators.

And that has definitely been something that I've personally noticed in the last 10 years.

Quite a, quite a sizable shift just in our home ed meetups.

What would you say is the most important thing that we're going to face as a home education community in the future, or in fact, are facing at the moment.

This actually comes from two directions.

Parents coming reluctantly to home education often haven't had an opportunity to research it.

They lack understanding.

It's not their fault.

I'm not attributing blame to them, but for example, we've taken calls on the helpline and I know from my CPD with local authorities that they receive similar calls from parents saying, when will the local authority send me work for my child?

When do I get paid for the things I have to buy?

And they come sometimes with absolutely no knowledge.

Now, they also often come having felt let down, having felt damaged, sometimes having felt punished by public bodies.

And that makes them quite vulnerable because they're scared of local authority involvement.

And that makes them very vulnerable because they're not sure how to respond.

So I think it's really, really important that those parents coming new reluctantly, even if you've just suddenly one day it's been thrust upon you, they need to seek advice from reputable sources because that way they will be supported through to getting it right.

So that is a challenge for home education, because what's happening is those parents are becoming a much larger proportion of the community as a whole, and their lack of knowledge, which is not their fault, is being exploited as a reason to say one of the reasons to say that more control over home education is needed.

So what's happening is schools are failing a lot of children.

The special needs system, particularly home education, is picking up the pieces, and some governmental individuals are then attributing blame for that failure in the schools to home education.

So that's a challenge for the community as a whole and for those parents who actually need support, not condemnation.

But that also brings a challenge to what I would call traditional home educators, because it can feel quite frightening to have your standards, your beliefs, your way of doing things, completely overhauled by what are seen as newcomers coming into your community and telling you that you're wrong, you're not doing things correctly, why aren't you doing this?

And it's natural.

When people have different backgrounds, it doesn't mean one is wrong and one is right.

It means that people have different outlooks.

And those people are more likely, for example, to want to communicate regularly with the local authority.

They want support from their local, local authority.

And that can feel very challenging to traditional home educators who feel that that might trigger local authorities to want more from them.

So that is, those are challenges within the community, as part of the community and against the community.

The other challenges we face, of course, is The Children's well Being and Schools Bill, which is just another bill along the way, but unfortunately and quite intentionally timed by this particular government which is bulldozing it through Parliament and which in the view of many, many people goes too far.

And that is going to cause a tremendous burden on parents.

The reporting burden, for example, the feel that the relationship between parents and local authorities will change because by creating this bill, the local authority becomes the hunter down of every parent, so to speak.

And those relationships, even where you've got really positive relationships between local authority officers and parents, those relationships will be damaged.

And that will be a challenge for both sides of that coin to get through that successfully.

And it can happen now.

I've seen it where I live.

I live in North Wales.

And in Wales, the government introduced really revolting guidance that we challenged and got watered down as a charity.

We took judicial review and we got it watered down.

But essentially all of the southern local authorities complied with it.

All of the northern ones checked with their legal team, were told, no, you don't have to do A, B, C and D. They decided not to.

And when we surveyed parents of their views of the local authorities, parents in the north, their views of the local authority had become more positive, even though they were previously positive.

And in the south, where the new guidance was taken on board, wholly more parents were very negative about their local authorities.

Their relationships had been damaged, but it showed that they can be improved.

So it's a challenge which local authorities and parents are going to have to get their way through by negotiating balance.

Yeah, and I know that, I know that I did a podcast about home education in Wales and at the time I was living in Wales and I didn't realize how, I don't want to say extreme, but how many changes there were in place in Wales that were almost like the thin end of the wedge for the rest of the uk.

It was very interesting.

And anyone who is home educating in Wales or even just is interesting to see how things might go.

It's an interesting podcast, that one.

Before we finish, then, let me ask you, you slightly more of a personal question about home education.

Looking back on your years in the home education community, what is the one thing that has annoyed you the most and what is the one thing that you've loved the most about home educating?

Oh, gosh.

What is the one thing that I love the most is really easy.

It's all of the children.

All of the children who I've seen grown up and I've seen them go out into the world and they're wonderful, independent, self motivated, brilliant human beings.

And it doesn't matter what they've achieved, they've achieved what's right for them.

And it doesn't matter whether that's just learning a few words when they couldn't speak for most of their life or becoming an astrophysicist, they've achieved.

And I just love it.

I just love it.

I've got my own children, I've got my grandchildren who've done that.

And I meet other people's children and I really love meeting those children and meeting with parents when I'm supporting parents, I often do.

And it's such a privilege to have that and to see it.

What do I very much not like every cohort of human beings has its bad apples.

And what I don't like seeing is the bad apples, shall we say, causing harm to vulnerable individuals.

And I can't bear bullies.

I just cannot stand any form of bullying or abuse.

And seeing people abusing other people just just, I just can't bear it.

And I see it a lot with.

I've done a lot of family law and I deal with a lot of cases where people are suffering from domestic abuse.

And to see people exploiting the courts to try to attack an abuse victim, I hate it.

I hate it.

If I could hire hitmen, I might.

If I could get away with it.

I didn't say that.

It's interesting you say that because I had a conversation with a home educator recently who said that they'd been kind of hounded out of home education Facebook groups because of lies that were put up about them.

And I had the same kind of visceral reaction.

I just like you think that.

One of the things I love most about home education is this collaborative, we're all in it together kind of spirit.

And so to see the flip side of that, I also find really annoying.

And I have to say, I couldn't agree more about home educated children.

I have never met a home educated child that I haven't liked.

They're just so fun.

They're like great children.

They're like really?

They're also independent and autonomous and they've got all these opinions and they'll come straight up to you and say stuff to you like other children don't do to other adults.

And it's lovely.

I think home educate children are just a dream.

Well, Wendy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

It was really interesting.

It was really a whistle stop tour through our rights, but it was wonderful and I will Put the links to education.

Otherwise in the show notes for anyone who would like to join us up.

I don't.

Perhaps you could just, before we finish, tell, tell our listeners a little bit about membership.

Yep, we.

If you become an actual member, we as a charity, we receive no funding whatsoever from any outside source.

We operate solely on membership fees and donations.

So by becoming a member, you're supporting our work.

And most of what we do is behind the scenes.

For example, yesterday we arranged for a group of home educated children to meet with an MP who could tell them how best to lobby other MPs and how to go about it.

We meet with Lords, we work on bills behind the scenes with Members of Parliament, we meet with the DFE to present problems and to discuss where there are difficulties.

We contribute to research.

But at the same time there's something in it for you.

Quite a bit, apart from our website and everything you can access.

Anyway, as a member we offer you discounts.

We offer a free report checking service and it's pretty darn cheap.

It's £17 a year and if you're on a low income, £14 a year.

Now, I know there are companies out there, just look at the report checking for.

A company's charging £50 to do that.

You get it from us for free if you're a member.

The discounts if your child's taking exams, we provide discounts with exam centres and our fee is less than the discount for one exam, so it's really worthwhile to do that.

But the important thing is you're giving something toward helping the community because as a charity, we have to act within the law.

We can't do some of the things some of the social media groups do.

We've got to be very careful to be balanced, equitable, accurate and supportive.

And so you know that we're reliable, we're there and we hope to still be there in another 50 years time and that home education is thriving.

Absolutely.

I couldn't agree more.

Wendy, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

It was lovely to speak to you.

Bye bye.

Thank you so much for joining us for today's Home Education Matters podcast.

See you at the next one.

Have a lovely day.