welcome to the e-commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson,
the e-commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce.
Wow.
Now I'm super excited again with today's guest, who is Robert Giovanni, uh,
from iron plane about how to better work with a digital marketing agency.
If you've been listening to the show for the last few weeks, you'll know this is
the stage where I give a little shout out before we get into the conversation
to person, guests and episodes.
Cause I know that there's a lot of new people listening to the podcast
and where you just want to just want to help you find some more stuff.
And given that we're talking about how to better work with a digital
marketing agency today, I thought it would be great to mention, uh,
my conversation with a chap called.
Brooks on how to find your remarkability for a competitive advantage.
Great conversation with rich.
He's actually got his own podcast as well.
Uh, and so we, we just riffed off each other, which was fantastic.
And then also in the archives is a conversation with James Pybus,
the digital marketing strategy you need to transform your business
was the title of that podcast.
And we got into all three.
SCO and all kinds of great things with James.
Who's also a bit of a legend.
So do check that out.
This episode is brought to you by the e-commerce cohort, which helps you to
deliver e-commerce well to your customers.
And I'm sure you've come across a bunch of folks who are stuck with
their e-commerce business, or they've got siloed into working on just one
or two areas and miss the big picture.
Enter the e-commerce cohort to solve this problem.
If I'm honest with you, it's the kind of thing that I wish I'd had before
my business almost went belly up.
It would have helped me.
No end.
Let me tell you, uh, the cohort is a lightweight membership group
with guided monthly sprints, that cycle through all the key areas.
E commerce.
The sole purpose of cohort is to provide you with clear,
actionable jobs to be done.
So you'll know what to work on.
And more importantly, you'll get the support you need to get it done.
So whether you are just starting out in e-commerce or if like me, you're a bit
of a dinosaur, I don't know if I should admit this, but it's out there now.
Um, if, if you're a bit of a dinosaur, I can encourage you to do.
Our e-commerce cohort.com.
We accept dinosaurs from all walks of life.
Let me tell you, as it's gearing up for its founding member launch,
if you've got any questions, email me directly at Matt at e-commerce
podcast.net with your questions.
Cause let me tell you, I am super, super proud of it.
I know I've mentioned this a few times recently, but it is a great
thing that's going on with cohort.
Do check it out.
Now let's get into today's show.
Robert is the CEO of iron plane, uh, which is well, it's a full service e-commerce
agency, specializing in platform, design development and digital marketer.
He's gonna bring his 20 plus years of e-commerce web development and
team leadership experience from his role, uh, into today's conversation.
Uh, he's passionate about helping companies sell online as you are
going to hear right now, when he's not helping clients or developing
websites, you can find him.
Furniture.
That's right.
He's a fellow joiner.
He's a fellow woodworker.
And I just, you're going to love this conversation, such a legend.
Uh, get your notebooks, get your pens.
Grab your cup of coffee.
Here we go.
Well, I am here with Robert Giovanni.
He is the CEO of iron plane, a full service e-commerce agency, which
specializes in platform design development and digital marketing.
Oh yes.
He brings over 20 years of e-commerce experience, website development
and team leadership experience to his role that I am playing.
Uh, he is very passionate about helping companies sell online.
An ideal guest for the show.
And what I love about this guy is when he's not helping clients
or developing websites, you can find him building furniture.
And I'm not just talking about the Ikea flat-pack stuff on a, like, uh, oh,
he's off traveling with his family.
Robert.
Great to have you on the show.
Thank you for joining us.
Great.
My pleasure.
Thanks for having me.
So before we get into the whole e-commerce stuff, because you know, that's,
that's technically why we're here.
I suppose it's the e-commerce podcast.
I'm curious about the furniture thing.
Uh what's what's that all about?
Gosh, you know, uh, we moved.
Up to Portland, Maine, which, uh, is north you domain is very Northern cold.
And we picked one of these old Victoria.
It was a hundred plus years old and hadn't been touched in 40 years, uh, in
our world think Brady bunch, you know, they had gone through seven days and
load all the ceilings and all that stuff.
Right.
And so.
Which I'm sure it was lovely at the time.
And, uh, and so in the course of that, we, you know, we had to learn a lot about
how to fix this, this monstrosity up and bring it back to some of its former glory.
And my gosh, I just got into this whole hands-on building things.
Never thought I would.
I mean, uh, I don't know why my, my, both my grandfathers were carpenters,
but I, and you know, but I spent all day long from the computer and in screens.
And I just found that getting down to the shop, I, it was just an idea, you
know, the ability to just, uh, Yeah, plants and headphones in and really
just sink into building and creating.
And then all of a sudden, you know, now, unfortunately there's just not a room
left that I could put more furniture in.
So that's really funny.
Now, the reason why I'm asking you about this is, uh, because when I read that,
um, I'm like, this is a man after my use, like your, my American, uh, double
gang, because here's the thing, right?
Robert.
I also have ran e-commerce agencies.
I do know what I mean, like, and I, and I've also been around the block a
little bit, but I love making furniture.
And in fact they seriously, and in fact, We moved, uh, our warehouse, uh, about
three, four months before, just before Christmas, we started to no, no, no.
Sorry.
It was just after black Friday because it was a whole nightmare and let's
not go that story, but we moved out.
We moved to our warehouse and, um, when we moved into the new warehouse,
part of the deal for me was I'm like, I'm going to take this space.
It's a little bit bigger than what I need, but that means
in the back corner of annual.
I have started to build my dream woodshop.
Yeah.
So, uh, I have put in there all kinds of tools recently, so I've just got a
new joint of thickness or I've got a brand new table saw down there, mate.
Say, if you ever are over here.
So, so power tools.
You're definitely on the power tools side.
I like both.
I like hybrids.
Yeah.
I'm a hybrid guy, but unlike you people tuning in and again,
is this a Woodward, right?
Like here, we'll bring it in.
Somehow I'll make it work.
But like here, the reason I love it is it is the complete opposite of digital.
It is analog.
Yeah.
It's not a screen, it's not pixels.
It is real something you can touch and move with your hands.
And there's just something about that, which I think is,
is literally quite divine.
I do.
And I, I agree with you, right?
You can become so obsessed over the tiniest little thing, you know,
nobody else has got to notice.
Right.
And, but for me, that flaw, if I don't get it, I know I'm going
to notice it every single time.
And, uh, and you can feel yourself for hours.
Yeah, but it is very tactile.
It's very real.
It's awesome.
So, uh, post the posters Conversation, send me, uh, some of the pictures of stuff
that you've done and I'd love to sit.
And in fact, the desk that I'm on now is a piece of furniture that I've made.
Uh, not that you can see it because of the camera, but if you can set it and
if you can see behind me this little plaque on the wall here, Yeah, this is,
um, a and I'm sorry if you're listening to the audio podcast, listen, we won't
get to normal, but there's a, there's a chunk of wood on the wall behind me.
If you've never seen any of the videos and it's a piece of Walnut,
it's part of a Walnut ripped part of the tree, the root of a Walnut.
Uh, and I engraved in that piece of words, um, the Liverpool skyline, which is a and
then I back filled it with white resin.
And I quite like my little piece of wallet, the only piece of
wallet I ever made, everything else is furniture, but there you go.
Well, it's great to, it's great to meet a fellow joiner
slash e-commerce entrepreneur.
I think there's probably like two of us in the whole give it to us, but we're going
to target that market is super niche.
Exactly.
And I feel like I know all of them.
And so if you're listening, there'll be people listening to the show
going, no, Matthew, I am digital.
And I am also into word and making stuff.
Maybe not word, maybe metal or whatever, if that's you genuinely get in touch
because I would love to hear from you.
Okay.
And just, just be amazing.
Maybe there's three of us.
I don't know.
A little Facebook group, very quiet Facebook group.
They're on slack and our time zones, you know, it'd be like, you know, post.
Yeah.
Now your New Zealand caught, you know, visitors and everybody else.
Brilliant.
So other than furniture, Bob, or you've been around, and we
were saying there in the intro, you've been around a little while.
How did your journey.
Yeah.
Yeah, it started back in gosh, 1996.
I think when I, when I track it, um, we were in Russia at
the time and I came across these amazing chess sets and Scott Rush.
I know of all places, but it was, the things were changing.
It was a great time to be there.
It was.
Taken advantage of doing new stuff and building freedom and all that good stuff.
So maybe, maybe another generation will get back to it.
But, um, we were sitting there and I, I came across this guy,
mark is making an incredible chess sets and I knew a little bit about
e-commerce and playing around HTML.
Uh, and from paid to come out.
If you remember this thing, it was an old tool.
You could build websites, a little more drag and drop, you can wire up PayPal.
And I said, oh, let's see if there's anything to that.
So I took.
Um, and how to get it developed and then, you know, and then put it up online.
So it took a woodworking, right.
Pick a solid Wiki and give it there.
Right.
And, and I forgot about it.
And I think we call that by just a car or something like that.
Right.
And so we can have later this ski slope in Vancouver bought
it sight unseen for $9,000.
I don't even think we had a security certificate at the time and uncle.
Oh, oh, there's something to this, you know, to this e-com thing.
And my wife had gone back to grad school that concern he's New York.
And I said, Hey, don't be alarmed.
If a tenor from Bali shows up with trinkets and things, you know,
and you know, and, uh, and then my dad, like Dan, don't be alarmed a
hundred chestnuts riding your garage.
I might need you to do some fulfillment for me, you know, because I'm
still sitting over here in Moscow.
And I just loved it.
And, and this unwittingly began this journey in the e-comm and
over the years I bought and sold a few different sites along the way.
And, uh, we started getting asked to build the sites, uh, vendors and partners first.
And then, and then eventually we just start getting clients
and, uh, I just love it.
You know, I come at it from a business perspective.
I'm not a coder or a developer.
I know just enough to get in trouble, a lot more smarter people on my
team than I am to do that stuff.
But, uh, we always, this is what we've been doing for, uh, 12 years now.
And helping people get their stuff online or, or if they're already
there helping them do it better and selling it and that stuff.
So you've been doing the agency thing for about 12 years now.
Yeah, I am playing.
Yeah.
Okay.
You're in play.
And so do you still dabble in e-commerce or are you fully fledged?
Uh, agency now we've got a couple.
So Mike, my daughter, I want to do this.
I want to do this.
All right.
So, you know, we've built a couple sites for her, a lot, help
her build and sells and stuff.
I.
We don't have anything that's truly active.
I'm a silent partner in another venture.
That's all digital, uh, e-com uh, services and that kind of thing, but,
uh, no actively on a daily basis.
No, I can't.
I don't know you that well, Robert, but I struggle to believe
that you're actually a silent.
I do my best.
I wasn't, I didn't start off as silent, but then, you know, we made a deal
that I would go silent at some point, there will not be heard anymore.
It's been a great guy.
They have a new button now.
I hate it.
Dangerous of zoom.
Exactly.
We understand that we've heard.
So that's really funny.
That's really funny.
So you started out doing e-commerce, you moved to the, um, the agency space,
which you, you know, you've now got quite a big team having you doing the,
all of the agency work there at 50 plus.
So yeah, that's, I think that's a pretty reasonable size for an agency.
Um, New level of complexity, right?
When you're, when you're yeah.
Yeah.
Sort of agencies tend to be that sort of 10 to 15 mark.
I don't know, but I'm, once they break through the 20 plus barrier, the next
barrier for me is always that 50 number.
And when you start hitting those kinds of numbers, like you say, a system,
a whole new pain of, or a whole new level of pain and complexity.
I love my teeth.
It'll pay, don't pay.
They're all amazing.
It's great.
I mean, I'd add team.
Uh, we've had.
In the past, over 50, the company structure is such that
we don't do that at the moment.
But, um, I remember when we hit 54 staff, uh, and I'm thinking.
I don't know about you, Robert, but for me, a lot of
it was, um, imposter syndrome.
And, you know, you're kind of like, I'm the head of this team, but
like you, I don't know how to code.
Well, I love your phrase.
I know enough to be dangerous.
And, and that, that, that was definitely with me to be fair,
uh, because I'm the guy that was sitting there talking to a client and
they'll say, well, can we do this?
I say, oh yeah, that's a quick 10 minute job that, and all
the developers behind me.
They've all got knives out there.
Okay.
No, no, man.
That's not no minutes.
That's four weeks, but yeah, we'll get the deal.
We got the deal and don't paid painters enough, but we've got the,
so yeah, you've got this volume.
Yeah.
Wait, so we've got this, um, you've got this agency plane, uh, Um, and have
built up, what are some of the things that you've noticed, I guess over the
last 12, 15 years about e-commerce then in, in, in agency, what, where
have some of the subtleties come, you know, for clients into sort of, this
is the wrong phrase, but where are some of the big switches come, I guess,
for clients in those 12, 15 years,
I think there's a polarization starting to happen here.
We've got clients that are very, at least in the system side, the
platform side, and then I'll get right to answering your question here.
Um, we don't have a really great.
Mid market solution.
In terms of, if you've got any kind of complexity in your stuff
as a client, you're probably are outgrowing or it's risky to be on
your typical SAS type tools, like a big commerce or stop fighting.
We love these tools, but there's the risk there.
If you're going to build in somebody else's backyard on the flip side, You
know, the platforms that are much more extensible, scalable, codeable have gotten
very complex and require a, uh, quite a bit amount of overhead just to maintain.
And so I think clients, when they're coming in, um, we're seeing this
dichotomy, this extreme of, you know, they kind of grew up in this world.
How come it's so complex now?
I mean, you would think things are getting easier.
And in all this great customization, you can do things have gotten
complex and, and there is.
And while it's great, if you're not leveraging that, it can just be this
burden, this technological burden.
So we're seeing.
I'm seeing in some groups, just this realization that, you know,
we have to sink all the way in.
If we're going to do this, we got to do it.
Right.
We got to build right.
We got to build the foundation.
Right.
And we gotta be, this is not just an adjunct anymore, or it's not just a hobby
part of our business, or it is the end.
All right.
We are, even if we're not direct to consumer, we've got all of our
stakeholders coming in now, our vendors, our partners, our sales reps.
Right.
And so it doesn't necessarily have to be.
DTC direct to consumer sale.
So we're seeing that develop, uh, and then we're seeing, um, on another side,
The manufacturers and the B2B starting to realize, and we don't call it.
E-com generally speaking when I'm talking, because I still think that
when I bring that, when I use that phrase that they're thinking, no, that's
not us, but really at the end of the day, they're, they're getting digital.
They're starting.
Everything is.
Web based, and that is becoming the hub and whether it's gated or it's
not, or we've got, you know, it's internet versus extra net, it's still
very much a web-based e-commerce solution that is happening there.
So those are some of the nuances I think we're seeing that's
really fascinating because I, again, I've had this conversation.
I don't think we've talked about it too much on the show, but I've had
this conversation with a lot of people.
How, what you say is correct that there is no real.
Well, there aren't many people I think, operating in the mid tier
of the e-commerce platform section.
So you are right Shopify, which is, you know, there's a whole bunch of them,
but let's pick on Shopify because it's the one most people know right at the
beginning, I want to launch a site.
I'm gonna go to Shopify.
I'm gonna pay my 20 bucks a month for a show.
I've got my site going up.
Um, there comes a point.
Uh, certainly my experiences, there comes a point where your
e-commerce business is big enough or it's so big, or you want a hole.
You want a level of complexity to your site.
You or you want it to make, be bespoke that actually what you get with
Shopify no longer meets your needs.
And you, you want to sort of develop beyond the boundaries of Shopify
for want of a better expression.
I think Shopify has changed in this platform, but certainly for a long time,
this, you know, it was quite restricted.
And so then, um, you would, you would meet people who would go, right?
I want to upgrade my.
And when I, you know, cause I do the coaching side of things, I see
a lot of the disasters of these upgrades, you know, where they go
and spend a hundred, 200 grand.
They'll probably go on some platform like Magento.
Um, uh, and, um, it's not just magenta, not as picking on Magento
or anything along those lines.
Yeah.
Anything along those lines.
Um, and.
They're usually very expensive, very complicated.
They suck the life out of everybody along the way.
And so that didn't seem to be a, sort of a happy medium where, you know, actually
I don't need the big Magento because I've not got the structure, the resource,
the team to, to deliver that project.
Well, yeah.
But I do need something here in the middle.
And is that where you guys operated at iron planes this way
you kind of have made your mock?
Well, I think, you know, in years past, yes.
I think we were always dealing with clients that had a more
complex needs as you put it.
Right.
I mean, whether it was integrations or their branding and they, and they just
couldn't live in the box of turnkey solutions or true SAS solutions.
Uh, we definitely made our mark there.
We've enforced up market even a little bit more just because we are, we're very
much a Magento shop and big commerce.
These are the two platforms, and then we do custom for those clients that truly
don't fit into either one of those camps.
Okay.
Within that sometimes I'll be looking at somebody and going
there on Magento and I'm going, you know, this is too much for you.
You don't, you don't need to be here.
Let's, let's, you're going to lose maybe 5% of functionality or something,
but you're going to gain so much more freedom of not thinking about this thing.
12 hours a day, the technology should fall to them.
This is what I always tell my clients, unless you are a dev shop or you,
and, you know, you just, you know, you have a passion for punishment because
you love it for some reason, right.
You know, the, the technology needs to fall back and you should be
able to, it should be driving your business, not the other way around.
And I just think that particularly when we have owner operators who have
been growing, because, you know, so it's not an established enterprise
company with it departments, right.
Owner operators who have grown to that 20, $30 million range.
And.
They still often are the ones ruffling the most with Patrick's solutions, even
if it was a good platform to begin with their quarters have been caught or wasn't
always the right fit, but they can make, do we want them to step back and look and
go let's let's look at all your state.
Uh, internal and external.
I mean, is it your customer service reps, your clients, your vendors,
your partners, you w and then what are they looking for out of your platform?
And let's start to look at this 80 20 thing, and it's just a simple
matrix at the end of the day, and, you know, knowing full well that
no, solution's going to be perfect.
But if we can get 80% of the way there cobbled together, the next 10%,
you know, this is probably gonna be more than you need for a long time.
And so when, a lot of time in our world, one to three years, right.
And so I'm sorry.
I want to caveat that.
I mean, nothing in technology, but it really drives, it
helps drive the decision.
I don't know.
Sometimes they feel like they just have a breath of fresh air.
They just sigh relief, like.
I don't have to just keep pouring in 10 grand a month to just keep the
lights on, on my website, you know?
And like, no, you shouldn't be doing that.
I mean, unless you're a scale that that's a pittance, right?
And so this is where we're we're most of our conversations these days are that way.
In fact, I'm having one after this podcast day with a company they've
grown beautifully, they grow 30% a year.
Um, consumer directly.
Lots of content, like a great content, lots of skews, but not overly complex.
And, but they have complex integrations with their ERP systems.
So they need to be on something like a Magento.
Um, but they're the siren song of a Shopify is calling to this owner
because he's like, I'm just so tired of Magento, not being fast.
I'm so tired.
I'm so tired of my marketing team saying they can't do what they want
to do without a developer coming in.
And we're like, well, step back, because realistically it just wasn't
built with the right tools in place.
Um, getting back to the woodworking, right?
We're always talking about bringing tools here.
And so, you know, and if we can find those right tools and if they do what you do.
This, you know, moving platforms is painful and you're getting in going from
what you know, and all the tissues to what you don't know, and the promise of glory.
There's always a big gap there.
And so we're really helping them to dissect down what are your true business
needs and who are all the stakeholders and what are they really want?
Is it the marketing just wants to be able to create a landing page and not
have to call a developer every day.
Okay.
There are ways to do that.
Let's let's solve those issues, right?
That's how we try to approach these things and not throw everything out all at once.
Yeah.
I liked that approach, Robert.
I really do, because it makes an awful lot of sense because I think
you, when I've seen it go wrong.
Yeah.
Uh, when, you know, and if, if people are listening to the show and they're like,
well, I'm kind of at the stage where I'm thinking of upgrading or moving to
Magento or whatever, you know, wherever they're at in their e-commerce journey.
Um, and you, you kinda, where I've seen it.
Usually it comes down to a mist managed expectations, and that always comes
down to the not great communication either from the client to the
agency, because I've, I've met some agencies where I've had questions.
But generally speaking they're all right.
You know what I mean?
Some are better than others, but, um, and so that there's responsibility
on the client because they've not communicated well to the agency.
And then there's a responsibility on the agency where they've not
communicated well to the client.
And when you do this in communication, you miss each other.
Um, that's as if anyone has been married for more than a few years can attest to
that's when the problems start to happen.
Is that your experience?
And I guess, how do you manage that?
How do you, how do you manage those expectations?
I think this is three quarters of our job as an agency is man.
I hate to say it like my director of operations.
Like I just feel like that.
I mean, yeah, there's always an issue of the quality.
You want to make sure that the PM's and the devs everybody's working
well and billable hours where they got, but that's very predictable.
It's over here.
Account executives and well, it starts with sales, you know, and
really when you're talking to.
You hit it on the head.
There is this, when we're saying this, we got to make sure they really, you
know, their definition of what works, even simple things like front-end themes.
You can't believe how this can be translated in our mind.
A custom front end theme is, you know, you're a thousand hours, you know,
a turnkey theme you're at 50 hours.
Right.
You know, but we talked to somebody and in their mind it's yeah.
You know, I'm going to have the next and greatest and care possible.
You know, a thousand dollars.
Right.
And so, you know, there's always this, this thing.
So we as an agency, I think, yeah.
The primary responsibility to, to be on the lookout for that.
And to always think of who you're talking to.
When we internally, we always say, okay, you hate to use this word stakeholders,
but I think it's the right one here.
Who are you talking to?
Are you talking to marketing?
You're talking to it.
You're talking to the owner.
Are you talking to, you know, big, small, how have they grown?
What do we think is their vocabulary internally?
Because if we start talking about.
And they go repeat it internally there.
And the context is all out of whack.
I promise in 60 days we're going to have a problem because, you know, even
if everybody's meeting daily, even if we're in the project manager tools and
tracking it down to the minute, you know, even if all that stuff is there, you're
still going to have a missed expectation.
And so, and that can be disastrous for everybody because.
Beholden to somebody else.
Right.
And so something like that, I think.
And so we need to, as an agency, always think about who we're talking to and
what is it, what is their lens on it?
And this is why we try to run through this exercise with our clients,
particularly in the earliest ages, but honestly, even a quarterly review.
Definitely the early stages, this matrix of who are all your
stakeholders and what is, what are they expecting out of this, right?
CFO's a stakeholder.
They're expecting it.
Not to go above this cap X budget, no matter what, right?
This is where it hits.
We're not trying to use the whole cap X, but we're always trying to tell people,
we're not trying to spend your money, but you know, if we come back to you
with a half million dollar solution and you had a $20,000 budget, And we spent
three months in discovery together.
Somebody is not going to be happy with somebody, you know?
And so, I mean, it's, so it's that basic, uh, that we're always trying
to help them align internally and, and then us align that as well.
And I think that's where the better agents.
I'm very proactive on that and not just collecting the box,
not just billing the hours.
Um, now in our world, we're, we're looking for the long term relationship.
We're not about one-off builds.
Uh, it's never been our style.
And so it's, it's extremely important for us to do that.
If your bill, if your agency is very much build it and
they go on to get other folks.
You know, you've got to get through that bill, but it's not gonna, it's not
gonna be, it's not going to be pretty.
I don't think, I think I learned a lot from a friend of mine.
Actually.
He is a, uh, he's.
He owns the Lexus dealership here in, in, uh, in the city next to his Chestnut.
And, um, he.
Here's a guy he's a really great guy, tightly, uh, thing that the bones often,
basically, it's just, it's just a legend this anyway, he's the kind of guy that
will sit me down and he will say, Matt, this is what I paid for that car, because
I would always buy my cars from him.
And I was like, he said, this is what I paid for the car.
This is how much I'm selling it to you.
And this is the.
And I have no reason to doubt him because there's a trustworthy man, but
the difference between the price of the car and the price, he sold it to me too.
Weren't that great?
And I'm like, dude, how do you make your money?
Because this is a beautiful showroom.
This is not a cheap place to run every month.
How do you make your money?
And it's like, well, we get rebates, um, obviously from the car company,
but we make our money on the long-term relationship with them.
Every time they come in for an mot and a service.
And he said, I, if we treat our clients, well, then the
service in center is 80% full.
And if it's over 60% for we're making profit.
In other words, he's, he's, he's treating the client right at the
top to fill this sort of long-term.
And I thought that was, that was, that was clever.
And that's in effect what I see good agencies doing.
Yeah.
You know, when people go to an agency, the biggest fear that they've got in
their heads, whenever they go to an agency is you guys are going to rip me off.
I'm going to have to go mortgage my right kidney, and I'm going to get, you
know, nothing really at the end of it.
And it there's a real vulnerability, I think there, uh, when people
come to an agency, um, so treat them right at the top.
You keep them down a lonely.
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so Robert for you.
Yeah.
What are some of the things?
Um, cause I, you know, the people listening to this show are, are
in effect your potential clients, or maybe not your personal, but
agencies, prospective clients.
They're going to be wanting to use an agency at some point in their e-commerce
growth or they are using an agency.
To help them do something.
So how can we, as the consumer, as the, the stakeholder to use your language,
how can we better help ourselves get ready to work with an agency?
What are some of the things that you wish we would know before we give you a
call run through that exercise and really figure out who really cares about the
project and what they want out of it?
Uh, Again, I come from a business perspective.
I'm going to have on my call, somebody from our tech side.
You're right.
As we thinking about it from a pure systems analysis, I'm going to have
somebody probably for our UX and design and branding, you know, they're to be
thinking about it from that perspective.
So we have our own silos as well.
Right.
And so, um, and we want to bring that to the table.
So, uh, As much as our clients can bring that to the table earlier in
the process, the better, because it'll help them to identify what they really
need out of whatever work we're doing.
And so, um, because everybody wants everything, right.
I mean, you know, there's, you know, we want this site to do this and we're,
we're fully expect that we're going to leverage a hundred percent of that
platform and know the reality is right.
You know, We're going to go for the quick wins and then build on that
foundation so that you can start to incorporate whatever it is we're doing.
And this sounds very broad and general, but you know, we just see
folks, they have a vision of a month or a year down the road, and it's
great, but there's this big gap of.
What it should look like a month down the road.
Uh, and, and it's, and there's this black box, and this gets to what you're talking
about, how people don't trust agency.
So they get afraid.
Right?
Uh, they don't want to show that they don't understand because then they're
going to be taken advantage of, and then this creates this vicious loop.
Right.
And then we go into ultra explanation mode and they feel even more lost
because the tech person's talk, you know, about code and then, you know,
the business person's lack of data.
You.
Yeah.
Self-fulfilling prophecy.
I like it too.
I'm not a car guy.
I don't like driving, not a big car.
My wife is the one that drives everything and I was right.
And so, but we have a mechanic and it took years for me to come
to trust the mechanic because.
Every time we took the car in no matter what it was.
It's 500 bucks.
It's a little bit like you're looking I to I'm like, you know, my car is making
a little ding and to be 500 bucks and we have to do the discovery by the way.
I mean the version of a discovery, right.
You know, a code review.
Right.
You know, and I'm like, okay.
So I got like $300 go to review, and now I'm going to be another 500 plus.
And it's, I can be right for.
And they're likely to call me at three and say, it's gonna be
another four after that, you know, because of supply chains ordinance.
Right.
So the funny thing is there's just this parallelism to what I do as an agency.
And I felt in my earliest days when I would be on every sales call, uh, and
people calling in, I could feel that trepidation on the other side of the line.
I mean, you know, they just didn't know they were where
they're being taken advantage of.
They probably felt like they have been taken advantage of in the past where they
probably not probably missed expectations, probably just two ships passing.
Um, Not a good fit, not a good alignment.
And this is where as much as people you want to come in knowing what it is
you're trying to accomplish, and then that your agencies, a few of them, you
know how well they seem to respond to what your goals are, your business goals
are, or if you know your technical goals.
And if they can talk that language with you, you've got a good chance.
You're gonna start bridging, uh, the, the expectation gap pretty quickly.
And so.
I think that that's so short answer is I like, no, no.
What your business goals are and what you're really trying to accomplish
and who the stakeholders are.
And then as you're listening to agencies, don't get caught up in
all the promises of what can be, see if they're talking to your goal.
And if they are, because you can always solve something, there's always a tool.
I mean, and, and, and, you know, in our world, like, we'll tell people
like, look, we've got these two tools that our backpack that we
use, and then we've got these other ones that we're really good at.
But if you're out of that set, we're going to recommend you to go over here because
we're not going to pretend that we can, that we've mastered this other thing.
And so it's the only brought that back.
Yeah, I did.
I was I'm I'm already thinking about ham planes, but let's not go there.
But, um, I, I like that, you know, and I, I, I guess I'm, if I, if I'm going
to play, uh, this slightly contentious into your role here, um, How do I
know what my business goals are?
And I, I ha how do you see what I mean, I can hear people get in stuck
point straight away and they'll get over complex where a good agency
actually is worth their weight in gold, because they will help you understand
these by asking clarifying questions.
Um, but I do agree the more you can do before you talk the agency the better.
So when you, uh, So let's run through some really practical examples just to help
people understand that the terminology.
So, um, how would I go about figuring out what my business goals are?
And let's say I'm just looking for products I've got around here.
I've got some little candles here that, again, people listening will be able to
this, but I've got some little candles.
Um, let's say I've got a little can, I've got a candle website.
I mainly find she candles and I'm turning over.
I don't know, 15 million online.
I'm on a Shopify site and I'm kind of going.
I want to do a few more bits and bobs, how do I start to think about, okay.
I mean the most basic level, I always tell me, I mean, this
doesn't have to be able to complex.
Are you looking to, and everyone's going to say, I want all of these,
but if you had to pick one, am I looking to bring in new business?
Am I looking to bring back existing business?
Or am I looking to improve the ones that are there, get them
to buy more while they're there.
Right.
And obviously it's always some combination of all three.
We've got limited budgets.
We've got limited.
This, what is your, if you thought out the next year, what would
be the biggest thing for you?
Right.
And so, uh, that's going to start to drive.
Some of those technical answers.
And so somebody says, I want a whole bunch of new, you know, new business.
Are we thinking we gotta get Omni channel and we gotta, we gotta
take this core platform and start pushing out the Amazon marketplace
and Walmart marketplace and wish and true on all these other marketplaces.
Are we thinking, you know, and that's a technical that starts to
become more of a platform question.
Can your platform handle that or do we need, are you moving off this core
platform or are we going to bring in other pieces to handle order management?
That's where it starts to dry the discussion.
Somebody will tell me, oh, I'm going to go to Magento because
it can do all these things.
And it's going to bring me more business, maybe.
Mm, if we're leveraging it the way, you know, to do that.
And is that what you really want or are you just trying to, do you
have a lot of business right now?
Are you right?
But your site is, it's a bad user experience and we're
losing conversion rate, right?
We're not, you know, we, we don't want to spend more money on marketing.
We don't want to bring a new channel.
We want to improve what we've got.
That can be a very legitimate six months, 12 months, 18 month goal.
Okay.
We're talking about site optimization here.
We're talking about user experience.
We're talking about.
Testing if you're big enough or, I mean, you know, so I use
user testing as a, uh, it's.
It can be a black hole too, so, but, you know, I think so.
And it's really easy to say, oh, you shouldn't, you know, you
should test that like, well, okay.
Yes.
But, you know, yeah.
I got 50 visitors a day.
I mean, what am I going to test?
And so, um, so it's, you know, it's, it's, it's, this is where we're,
we're trying to dive into that.
Um, I've got, you know, we're, we're talking to this one client right now.
Their big thing is they want to leverage their platform.
They've got, they are distributor and they sell to hundreds of mom and pop shops who
don't have an e-comm presence, or if they do it's very basic, they want to leverage
their platform to create Microsoft.
That are for all these people.
And how great is that on so many levels, right?
I mean, you're gonna get some vertical integration.
You're solving a problem for them.
Oh.
And by the way, my product is the one that's kind of running through the
distribution channel there, you know, now are you going to do that with a Shopify?
You know, it's getting round peg square hole or whatever it is,
you know, square peg round hole.
And so this is where I get a, a system like a Magento is probably going
to be a better platform for them because they, you can leverage them.
Psych component of it and you start doing this, right?
So this is how, when we talk, talking about what is your business goals, where
are you in your business development, then let's make the technology drive that.
So, yeah.
No, absolutely.
And again, like you said, coming back to stakeholders, asking them the
questions, what is it you want out of it?
And another thing that I've found.
It's a great source of trying to identify what your new website should do is go
through all your customer service emails and see where the biggest complaints are.
Um, where are the biggest problems your customers are having?
You know, what are the things that they're constantly talking about?
Uh, and, um, you can solve some of them straight off the bat.
They're always quick wins.
As we like to say, always quick wins.
I'm uh, I've, I've started to understand my business goals a little bit more.
I'm talking to my stakeholders.
Um, everyone that needs to be involved in this website, that from the
marketing team for me is the owner.
My suppliers possibly, you know, my customers, what do they want?
Um, and so on and so forth.
So I'm doing all of this sort of work.
And then I I've, I've got that and I'm, I'm coming to you and I'm
just, I almost come to you sort of slightly platform-agnostic yeah.
That's my usual approach.
I'm kind of like, this is my problem.
You guys are the experts.
What do you think is the best solution rather than, I don't know
if you've ever done this thing.
I don't know if they do it in the states and the UK.
If you go see your doctor.
Um, you know, I've got this problem, uh, doctor, uh, they don't sit there
and go, well, I think it's this.
And therefore you need to do this.
The first question they always ask you is, so what do you think it is?
Oh, no.
Yeah.
Right.
You've gone onto Google.
You I've got the problem.
You know what it is, you know, the solution and you've just come to
the doctor for whatever, just to validate your opinion, I suppose.
Let's see how good you do your job.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's the dangers of Google.
Now.
We all know everything at least we think we do.
So, um, I've come to you.
Um, I'm probably slightly platform agnostic.
Um, what are some of the things that maybe I should look at or look for in
the early days of dealing with an agency?
Uh, you know, I'm talking to you, what are some of the things I need to look
and think about before working with you?
I don't, and I, I was gonna try to carry the health analogy, but
you know, we're the United States.
So, you know, health is very much.
Polarized subject here.
So
I went, I went to my physician the other day and they're like, you're
only allowed to ask these three questions in this coded thing.
You know, like what, it's my physical he's like, no, that's it.
That goes beyond the other.
So, yeah.
So I guess first things we're going to go there with your agency and make
sure they can actually answer the questions that you want to ask them.
Um, That's segway, but we're, uh, the reality is there are some agencies
that say they'll do anything and everything, and it doesn't matter
their size, but some of the smallest agencies, you know, with four people
on the team direct with everything.
And then you've got the ones with elderly people that are experts.
I just think that when you're getting into platforms and if you
have any level of complexity, you want an agency that has chosen a
few things to get really good at it.
And you have to vet that and you're gonna have to, you know,
how are we going to do that?
Whether it's okay talking to clients past clients?
I think, I don't know.
I think talking to current clients and past clients is some of the best
things you can do, because they're going to tell you the good, bad,
and so many people don't do it.
I know they never do.
I was telling you, I'm like, you give me references.
I'm like, well, look, I'm not going to, I hate if everybody, if I gave,
you know, if I gave a reference every single time somebody asked me, I
mean, my port clients would be, you know, only on the phone all day long.
Right.
And so, but the fact is I'm like, look, you can see who we have on our website.
You can see who's worked with us in the past.
You could probably find somebody that's complained about us somewhere.
You know what I mean?
Like, you know, but the fact is, and I always tell people, when you talk to them,
don't ask them what they love about us.
You know, if they're still our client, they love us.
For some reason, I'm like ask them when things go wrong.
How it's been handled.
How did I deal with that?
How are you that, I mean, it's, it's your basics, but nobody
wants it because they want it.
They want to feel good.
Right.
Everyone should feel good at the beginning here, but I'm like, look,
we're an agency, you're a client.
Presumably, we're going to do this for a lot of years.
Something's going to go wrong somewhere.
I mean, that's just, that's just in the cards.
Okay.
And you're going to hire new people.
They're going to have no idea what was promised before.
I'm going to put a new PM on, at some point, you know, that
something's going to get lost here.
How are we going to handle it?
And you want to know what our approach is and if it fits with your organization.
And so, um, because you can vet the quality or you can, you can look at
our team, you can, uh, hack, run, shaping e-commerce on your plate, or
you can be half our team on YouTube at this point and see if you liked them.
I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it was a little plug, but you know, the, uh,
and so, you know, the reality is I think that, uh, I think that you've got to
figure out is this going to be a good fit?
We have our basics.
I mean, you know, there's, we have clients that have come to us and said, you know,
we want you to work on Friday nights.
That's when we want things done and deployed and for whatever reasons.
And we're like, guys, we don't deploy on Fridays because I'm not going to,
if there's an emergency, we're not going to be here for you on Saturday
and well, I mean, we have emergencies.
For true emergencies, us creating this potential emergency on purpose.
We're not going to do it.
And we had a, you know, we had to walk away from really great relationships, uh,
nicely, but you know, we're, we're not going down this path with you anymore.
We're not because our teams are not going to be here on Saturday, unless it's
truly an emergency of our making, uh, or you're making, but you know, is truly.
And so those kinds of relationship, things, code ownership, and
version controls and security.
These are sacrosanct for us.
Uh, and if clients are not, if that doesn't fit with their
sort of corporate culture yeah.
That may not be a good fit.
So you're looking for those basics as well.
And, but we usually ferret that out early in a call.
I think you want to see how, I mean, this is probably not a great way to put
it, but how desperate is the agency?
You know, if they're living in dying and getting your stuff, it means they may,
you gotta be careful not over promising.
Um, and this is a big thing.
I mean, it's with the best of intentions, right.
But you don't want to be there.
Scale, everything else is all comes into this equation, but in general,
you don't wanna be their only client or their most important client.
Um, because then there's too much risk and they're going to, uh,
I think you've got too much risk going into that relationship.
So yeah, you have, and I, and I think I've also come across something you
just said that triggered it in my head.
I've come across this.
You know, agencies over promised and they, they feel like they've got to work
on this project, all these crazy hours.
And so you become their least favorite client and you never want to be
your agency's least favorite client.
You want to be your agency's favorite client, because that's
when sort of mean you, you want to pay your bills ahead of time.
You want to send everyone in the office gifts at Christmas, and you
want to do this because you want, when you call up, you want the guys to be
happy to be talking to you and just going out of their way to help you.
Because agencies, at the end of the day, they met up for people.
And so we we've got to get the best out of them and treating them like nice humans.
Is, uh, is a good way to, to not be at the bottom of the list.
Right?
It seems so basic, but you, you, I had this call with this owner
the other day, say the industry, I tend to deal with a lot of owners.
I mean, I think because I think companies that are not, you know,
that have been established and it's not driven by their owner anymore.
They've got some systems in place and, you know, you tend to
have less of these issues, more capital issues, capital expense.
And this owner, he was just blow.
He, every interaction with RPM who is so dedicated to this
company, which is horrible, he would just blow up a yell, scream.
His team was afraid of him.
And, and so I wrote him an email, very diplomatically,
but essentially firing him.
And I said, but call me if you've got any questions as we call me.
Did you just fire me?
Well, yeah, I think so.
I mean, yeah.
You know, barring a major 180 here.
I said, you know, we'll help you out.
We'll wrap it up.
We're not gonna just drop it.
You, I mean, I care about your business and then I care about your team.
Uh, and he goes, but you know, you can't do that.
And I said, well, I don't make a habit of this.
I mean, I wouldn't have an agency if my day, so I say you don't
want, but it basically boils down to what you just said.
And I said to him, look, you, you want my team?
To be thinking about your project to be excited when your email comes in
in the morning, if, when they log in and there's an email from you and they
cringe, I said, you're just not going to get the best out of that person.
I said, they're going to log their time officially.
They're going to track it.
They're going to mean, you know, w w we're going to honor
our contractual obligations.
It's a, but you want 110%.
You want them, when they're at lunch, sort of thinking about how do we
solve that thing for that guy, you know, You want the, that factor in
there and, you know, and that's great.
And he sort of understood and then was good for four weeks and
we sort of have a touch before we just go from agency to agency.
And that's what if they're breathing effectually, you go, you know what?
We don't want your business anymore.
And that's maybe a question you need to ask your agency as well, to give
me a list of clients you've sacked because any agency that's not done that.
I don't know.
I don't know if I'd be that confident to work with them, but that's just me.
You know what I mean?
I think that it's a two way street.
Can I, I do think.
It takes a brave business owner to go.
This is not working.
I'm going to turn down a company culture.
I think it's really hard, but I think fundamentally you, you, there are clients
along the way for whatever reason, and it's not because people are just,
for whatever reason, it just doesn't work out between you and the client.
Right.
Having the strength to call it a day and go, you know what?
This is great.
We'll help you out.
But I think beyond this with w where quarterly agreement a right fit anymore,
and that enables your agency to flourish.
So if I'm coming to your agency, I want to know those kinds of
stories, but that's just me, you know, I just, I kind of, yeah, this,
these guys are really protected for their culture, which is quite nice.
And I think I can fit in.
So that, but you know, others that don't appreciate that we're
probably not a good fit for them.
Right.
And they want to be able to, you know, they want to be able to know that I'm
riding my team on Friday and Saturdays and you know, and they want to know that
they can know that because that's what they have in their corporate culture.
And that's what we'll say.
We're probably not a fit.
Uh, yeah.
Yeah, that's fine.
Yeah.
We work really well with people that don't want to work on a Sunday.
They just want to be at home with a family because that's where
everybody else is in our company.
They're at home with the family.
Right.
And so, uh, we quite that less than Robin, I am aware of time and
I feel like we're just honestly scratching the surface of this.
Cause there's so many, there's so many more directions we can go.
What happens if it's not working with the agency and germane
all those kinds of things.
Um, and, uh, it may be that we need to do a sort of a part two of this
conversation at some point, but.
I think for every body out there that is in some e-commerce and business,
whether you're an owner, whether you're a startup, whether you're established or
what working with an agency is going to be something you're going to have to do at
some point, if you want to scale and grow.
And so do listen to what Robert has said about understanding your business
goals, understanding the stakeholders.
Talking to the agencies, understanding their culture and seeing if it's a good
for get your head around that process.
Can you live up to the agency's expectations and what they need from
you and all that sort of good stuff.
Um, Robert, if people are listening to the show and they kind of think, I really
want to reach out to this guy, what's the best way for them to get ahold of you.
Certainly LinkedIn, Robert Giovannoni iron plane.
I love the conversation.
If anybody ever wants to talk to you, comma.
I enjoy it.
And then we have our shaping e-commerce with airplane on YouTube
and podcasts, your favorite podcast channels, which is also, you can
get to know our team a little bit and hear the same kind of topics.
Yeah.
Fantastic.
Yeah, absolutely.
Just subscribe to their show.
It's great.
And we will, of course put all the links in the show notes.
Um, and you can get those if for whatever reason you can't take them down now.
Uh, just head on over to the website, e-commerce podcast.net search for
Roberts search for, I am plain and yet the young fellow sat before me will
come up and you'll be able to connect with him or we'll head all that.
So, yeah.
Robert, thank you so much for your time.
Thanks for the conversation.
Uh, it's always good to connect to fellow woodwork.
Slash e-commerce as slash just dudes where we are.
We are, we are, we should tell the queen, we should get a medal or something.
I'm not quite sure believe so we must, we must be in line for something.
I don't think so.
Dave, thank you so much.
It's been great.
Empty.
There you have it.
Another fantastic conversation here on the e-commerce podcast.
Huge.
Thanks to Robert for joining me today.
Now don't forget.
You can check out our complete back catalog online at our
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So thanks for being with us today and in case no one has told
you, you, my friend are awesome.