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welcome to the e-commerce podcast
with me, your host, Matt Edmundson,

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the e-commerce podcast is all about
helping you deliver e-commerce.

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Wow.

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Now I'm super excited again with today's
guest, who is Robert Giovanni, uh,

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from iron plane about how to better
work with a digital marketing agency.

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If you've been listening to the show for
the last few weeks, you'll know this is

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the stage where I give a little shout
out before we get into the conversation

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to person, guests and episodes.

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Cause I know that there's a lot of
new people listening to the podcast

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and where you just want to just want
to help you find some more stuff.

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And given that we're talking about
how to better work with a digital

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marketing agency today, I thought
it would be great to mention, uh,

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my conversation with a chap called.

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Brooks on how to find your remarkability
for a competitive advantage.

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Great conversation with rich.

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He's actually got his own podcast as well.

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Uh, and so we, we just riffed off
each other, which was fantastic.

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And then also in the archives is
a conversation with James Pybus,

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the digital marketing strategy you
need to transform your business

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was the title of that podcast.

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And we got into all three.

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SCO and all kinds of
great things with James.

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Who's also a bit of a legend.

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So do check that out.

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This episode is brought to you by the
e-commerce cohort, which helps you to

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deliver e-commerce well to your customers.

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And I'm sure you've come across a
bunch of folks who are stuck with

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their e-commerce business, or they've
got siloed into working on just one

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or two areas and miss the big picture.

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Enter the e-commerce cohort
to solve this problem.

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If I'm honest with you, it's the kind
of thing that I wish I'd had before

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my business almost went belly up.

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It would have helped me.

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No end.

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Let me tell you, uh, the cohort
is a lightweight membership group

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with guided monthly sprints, that
cycle through all the key areas.

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E commerce.

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The sole purpose of cohort
is to provide you with clear,

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actionable jobs to be done.

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So you'll know what to work on.

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And more importantly, you'll get
the support you need to get it done.

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So whether you are just starting out in
e-commerce or if like me, you're a bit

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of a dinosaur, I don't know if I should
admit this, but it's out there now.

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Um, if, if you're a bit of a
dinosaur, I can encourage you to do.

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Our e-commerce cohort.com.

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We accept dinosaurs
from all walks of life.

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Let me tell you, as it's gearing
up for its founding member launch,

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if you've got any questions, email
me directly at Matt at e-commerce

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podcast.net with your questions.

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Cause let me tell you, I am
super, super proud of it.

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I know I've mentioned this a few
times recently, but it is a great

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thing that's going on with cohort.

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Do check it out.

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Now let's get into today's show.

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Robert is the CEO of iron plane, uh, which
is well, it's a full service e-commerce

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agency, specializing in platform,
design development and digital marketer.

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He's gonna bring his 20 plus years
of e-commerce web development and

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team leadership experience from his
role, uh, into today's conversation.

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Uh, he's passionate about helping
companies sell online as you are

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going to hear right now, when he's
not helping clients or developing

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websites, you can find him.

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Furniture.

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That's right.

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He's a fellow joiner.

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He's a fellow woodworker.

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And I just, you're going to love
this conversation, such a legend.

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Uh, get your notebooks, get your pens.

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Grab your cup of coffee.

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Here we go.

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Well, I am here with Robert Giovanni.

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He is the CEO of iron plane, a full
service e-commerce agency, which

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specializes in platform design
development and digital marketing.

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Oh yes.

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He brings over 20 years of e-commerce
experience, website development

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and team leadership experience
to his role that I am playing.

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Uh, he is very passionate about
helping companies sell online.

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An ideal guest for the show.

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And what I love about this guy
is when he's not helping clients

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or developing websites, you can
find him building furniture.

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And I'm not just talking about the Ikea
flat-pack stuff on a, like, uh, oh,

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he's off traveling with his family.

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Robert.

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Great to have you on the show.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Great.

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My pleasure.

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Thanks for having me.

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So before we get into the whole e-commerce
stuff, because you know, that's,

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that's technically why we're here.

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I suppose it's the e-commerce podcast.

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I'm curious about the furniture thing.

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Uh what's what's that all about?

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Gosh, you know, uh, we moved.

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Up to Portland, Maine, which, uh, is
north you domain is very Northern cold.

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And we picked one of these old Victoria.

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It was a hundred plus years old and
hadn't been touched in 40 years, uh, in

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our world think Brady bunch, you know,
they had gone through seven days and

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load all the ceilings and all that stuff.

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Right.

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And so.

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Which I'm sure it was lovely at the time.

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And, uh, and so in the course of that,
we, you know, we had to learn a lot about

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how to fix this, this monstrosity up and
bring it back to some of its former glory.

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And my gosh, I just got into this
whole hands-on building things.

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Never thought I would.

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I mean, uh, I don't know why my, my,
both my grandfathers were carpenters,

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but I, and you know, but I spent all day
long from the computer and in screens.

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And I just found that getting down to
the shop, I, it was just an idea, you

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know, the ability to just, uh, Yeah,
plants and headphones in and really

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just sink into building and creating.

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And then all of a sudden, you know, now,
unfortunately there's just not a room

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left that I could put more furniture in.

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So that's really funny.

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Now, the reason why I'm asking you about
this is, uh, because when I read that,

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um, I'm like, this is a man after my
use, like your, my American, uh, double

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gang, because here's the thing, right?

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Robert.

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I also have ran e-commerce agencies.

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I do know what I mean, like, and I,
and I've also been around the block a

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little bit, but I love making furniture.

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And in fact they seriously, and in fact,
We moved, uh, our warehouse, uh, about

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three, four months before, just before
Christmas, we started to no, no, no.

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Sorry.

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It was just after black Friday because
it was a whole nightmare and let's

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not go that story, but we moved out.

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We moved to our warehouse and, um,
when we moved into the new warehouse,

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part of the deal for me was I'm
like, I'm going to take this space.

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It's a little bit bigger than
what I need, but that means

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in the back corner of annual.

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I have started to build my dream woodshop.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So, uh, I have put in there all kinds
of tools recently, so I've just got a

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new joint of thickness or I've got a
brand new table saw down there, mate.

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Say, if you ever are over here.

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So, so power tools.

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You're definitely on the power tools side.

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I like both.

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I like hybrids.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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I'm a hybrid guy, but unlike
you people tuning in and again,

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is this a Woodward, right?

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Like here, we'll bring it in.

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Somehow I'll make it work.

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But like here, the reason I love it is
it is the complete opposite of digital.

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It is analog.

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Yeah.

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It's not a screen, it's not pixels.

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It is real something you can
touch and move with your hands.

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And there's just something
about that, which I think is,

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is literally quite divine.

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I do.

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And I, I agree with you, right?

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You can become so obsessed over
the tiniest little thing, you know,

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nobody else has got to notice.

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Right.

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And, but for me, that flaw, if
I don't get it, I know I'm going

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to notice it every single time.

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And, uh, and you can
feel yourself for hours.

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Yeah, but it is very tactile.

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It's very real.

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It's awesome.

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So, uh, post the posters Conversation,
send me, uh, some of the pictures of stuff

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that you've done and I'd love to sit.

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And in fact, the desk that I'm on now
is a piece of furniture that I've made.

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Uh, not that you can see it because of
the camera, but if you can set it and

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if you can see behind me this little
plaque on the wall here, Yeah, this is,

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um, a and I'm sorry if you're listening
to the audio podcast, listen, we won't

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get to normal, but there's a, there's
a chunk of wood on the wall behind me.

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If you've never seen any of the
videos and it's a piece of Walnut,

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it's part of a Walnut ripped part
of the tree, the root of a Walnut.

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Uh, and I engraved in that piece of words,
um, the Liverpool skyline, which is a  and

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then I back filled it with white resin.

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And I quite like my little piece
of wallet, the only piece of

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wallet I ever made, everything else
is furniture, but there you go.

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Well, it's great to, it's
great to meet a fellow joiner

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slash e-commerce entrepreneur.

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I think there's probably like two of us in
the whole give it to us, but we're going

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to target that market is super niche.

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Exactly.

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And I feel like I know all of them.

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And so if you're listening, there'll
be people listening to the show

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going, no, Matthew, I am digital.

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And I am also into word and making stuff.

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Maybe not word, maybe metal or whatever,
if that's you genuinely get in touch

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because I would love to hear from you.

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Okay.

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And just, just be amazing.

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Maybe there's three of us.

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I don't know.

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I don't know.

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A little Facebook group,
very quiet Facebook group.

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They're on slack and our time zones,
you know, it'd be like, you know, post.

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Yeah.

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Now your New Zealand caught, you
know, visitors and everybody else.

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Brilliant.

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Brilliant.

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So other than furniture, Bob,
or you've been around, and we

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were saying there in the intro,
you've been around a little while.

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How did your journey.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, it started back in gosh, 1996.

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I think when I, when I track
it, um, we were in Russia at

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the time and I came across these
amazing chess sets and Scott Rush.

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I know of all places, but it
was, the things were changing.

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It was a great time to be there.

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It was.

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Taken advantage of doing new stuff and
building freedom and all that good stuff.

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So maybe, maybe another
generation will get back to it.

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But, um, we were sitting there
and I, I came across this guy,

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mark is making an incredible chess
sets and I knew a little bit about

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e-commerce and playing around HTML.

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Uh, and from paid to come out.

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If you remember this
thing, it was an old tool.

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You could build websites, a little more
drag and drop, you can wire up PayPal.

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And I said, oh, let's see
if there's anything to that.

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So I took.

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Um, and how to get it developed and then,
you know, and then put it up online.

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So it took a woodworking, right.

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Pick a solid Wiki and give it there.

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Right.

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And, and I forgot about it.

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And I think we call that by just
a car or something like that.

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Right.

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And so we can have later this
ski slope in Vancouver bought

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it sight unseen for $9,000.

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I don't even think we had a security
certificate at the time and uncle.

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Oh, oh, there's something to this,
you know, to this e-com thing.

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And my wife had gone back to grad
school that concern he's New York.

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And I said, Hey, don't be alarmed.

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If a tenor from Bali shows up with
trinkets and things, you know,

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and you know, and, uh, and then my
dad, like Dan, don't be alarmed a

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hundred chestnuts riding your garage.

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I might need you to do some fulfillment
for me, you know, because I'm

236
00:11:11,835 --> 00:11:13,185
still sitting over here in Moscow.

237
00:11:14,505 --> 00:11:15,255
And I just loved it.

238
00:11:15,405 --> 00:11:18,795
And, and this unwittingly began
this journey in the e-comm and

239
00:11:18,795 --> 00:11:21,585
over the years I bought and sold a
few different sites along the way.

240
00:11:21,615 --> 00:11:25,215
And, uh, we started getting asked to build
the sites, uh, vendors and partners first.

241
00:11:25,215 --> 00:11:27,314
And then, and then eventually
we just start getting clients

242
00:11:27,345 --> 00:11:29,850
and, uh, I just love it.

243
00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:31,319
You know, I come at it from
a business perspective.

244
00:11:31,319 --> 00:11:32,699
I'm not a coder or a developer.

245
00:11:32,699 --> 00:11:36,360
I know just enough to get in trouble,
a lot more smarter people on my

246
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:37,710
team than I am to do that stuff.

247
00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:42,030
But, uh, we always, this is what we've
been doing for, uh, 12 years now.

248
00:11:42,090 --> 00:11:46,860
And helping people get their stuff
online or, or if they're already

249
00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:50,040
there helping them do it better
and selling it and that stuff.

250
00:11:50,130 --> 00:11:52,530
So you've been doing the agency
thing for about 12 years now.

251
00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:54,210
Yeah, I am playing.

252
00:11:55,155 --> 00:11:55,425
Yeah.

253
00:11:55,455 --> 00:11:55,605
Yeah.

254
00:11:55,635 --> 00:11:55,935
Okay.

255
00:11:55,935 --> 00:11:56,355
You're in play.

256
00:11:56,445 --> 00:12:00,765
And so do you still dabble in
e-commerce or are you fully fledged?

257
00:12:00,855 --> 00:12:04,035
Uh, agency now we've got a couple.

258
00:12:04,065 --> 00:12:06,375
So Mike, my daughter, I want to do this.

259
00:12:06,375 --> 00:12:06,915
I want to do this.

260
00:12:06,915 --> 00:12:07,155
All right.

261
00:12:07,155 --> 00:12:09,405
So, you know, we've built a
couple sites for her, a lot, help

262
00:12:09,415 --> 00:12:11,055
her build and sells and stuff.

263
00:12:11,445 --> 00:12:11,805
I.

264
00:12:12,665 --> 00:12:14,405
We don't have anything
that's truly active.

265
00:12:14,405 --> 00:12:16,985
I'm a silent partner in another venture.

266
00:12:16,985 --> 00:12:21,355
That's all digital, uh, e-com uh,
services and that kind of thing, but,

267
00:12:21,365 --> 00:12:23,074
uh, no actively on a daily basis.

268
00:12:23,135 --> 00:12:24,545
No, I can't.

269
00:12:24,965 --> 00:12:27,845
I don't know you that well,
Robert, but I struggle to believe

270
00:12:27,845 --> 00:12:28,954
that you're actually a silent.

271
00:12:31,740 --> 00:12:32,370
I do my best.

272
00:12:35,730 --> 00:12:38,939
I wasn't, I didn't start off as silent,
but then, you know, we made a deal

273
00:12:38,939 --> 00:12:44,160
that I would go silent at some point,
there will not be heard anymore.

274
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:45,420
It's been a great guy.

275
00:12:45,780 --> 00:12:46,770
They have a new button now.

276
00:12:46,770 --> 00:12:47,130
I hate it.

277
00:12:50,285 --> 00:12:51,185
Dangerous of zoom.

278
00:12:51,635 --> 00:12:52,235
Exactly.

279
00:12:52,895 --> 00:12:54,214
We understand that we've heard.

280
00:12:54,545 --> 00:12:56,435
So that's really funny.

281
00:12:56,535 --> 00:12:57,135
That's really funny.

282
00:12:57,665 --> 00:13:01,385
So you started out doing e-commerce,
you moved to the, um, the agency space,

283
00:13:01,385 --> 00:13:04,354
which you, you know, you've now got
quite a big team having you doing the,

284
00:13:04,354 --> 00:13:06,875
all of the agency work there at 50 plus.

285
00:13:06,875 --> 00:13:10,444
So yeah, that's, I think that's a
pretty reasonable size for an agency.

286
00:13:10,714 --> 00:13:14,495
Um, New level of complexity, right?

287
00:13:14,555 --> 00:13:15,615
When you're, when you're yeah.

288
00:13:15,665 --> 00:13:15,975
Yeah.

289
00:13:16,035 --> 00:13:19,235
Sort of agencies tend to be
that sort of 10 to 15 mark.

290
00:13:19,235 --> 00:13:22,415
I don't know, but I'm, once they break
through the 20 plus barrier, the next

291
00:13:22,415 --> 00:13:25,295
barrier for me is always that 50 number.

292
00:13:25,805 --> 00:13:28,385
And when you start hitting those kinds
of numbers, like you say, a system,

293
00:13:28,445 --> 00:13:32,285
a whole new pain of, or a whole
new level of pain and complexity.

294
00:13:33,545 --> 00:13:34,235
I love my teeth.

295
00:13:36,065 --> 00:13:36,845
It'll pay, don't pay.

296
00:13:37,595 --> 00:13:38,375
They're all amazing.

297
00:13:39,245 --> 00:13:39,635
It's great.

298
00:13:39,635 --> 00:13:41,075
I mean, I'd add team.

299
00:13:41,165 --> 00:13:42,125
Uh, we've had.

300
00:13:43,199 --> 00:13:46,530
In the past, over 50, the
company structure is such that

301
00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:47,699
we don't do that at the moment.

302
00:13:47,699 --> 00:13:52,350
But, um, I remember when we hit
54 staff, uh, and I'm thinking.

303
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:55,560
I don't know about you,
Robert, but for me, a lot of

304
00:13:55,560 --> 00:13:57,960
it was, um, imposter syndrome.

305
00:13:58,470 --> 00:14:02,010
And, you know, you're kind of like,
I'm the head of this team, but

306
00:14:02,010 --> 00:14:03,840
like you, I don't know how to code.

307
00:14:04,110 --> 00:14:05,579
Well, I love your phrase.

308
00:14:05,670 --> 00:14:07,260
I know enough to be dangerous.

309
00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:11,880
And, and that, that, that was
definitely with me to be fair,

310
00:14:12,449 --> 00:14:15,720
uh, because I'm the guy that was
sitting there talking to a client and

311
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:16,620
they'll say, well, can we do this?

312
00:14:16,620 --> 00:14:19,199
I say, oh yeah, that's a quick
10 minute job that, and all

313
00:14:19,199 --> 00:14:20,340
the developers behind me.

314
00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:25,069
They've all got knives out there.

315
00:14:25,069 --> 00:14:25,339
Okay.

316
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:26,660
No, no, man.

317
00:14:26,689 --> 00:14:27,740
That's not no minutes.

318
00:14:27,949 --> 00:14:31,579
That's four weeks, but
yeah, we'll get the deal.

319
00:14:31,610 --> 00:14:35,660
We got the deal and don't paid
painters enough, but we've got the,

320
00:14:38,870 --> 00:14:41,449
so yeah, you've got this volume.

321
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:42,270
Yeah.

322
00:14:42,270 --> 00:14:42,530
Yeah.

323
00:14:43,939 --> 00:14:52,035
Wait, so we've got this, um, you've
got this agency plane, uh, Um, and have

324
00:14:52,064 --> 00:14:56,145
built up, what are some of the things
that you've noticed, I guess over the

325
00:14:56,145 --> 00:14:59,775
last 12, 15 years about e-commerce
then in, in, in agency, what, where

326
00:14:59,775 --> 00:15:03,165
have some of the subtleties come, you
know, for clients into sort of, this

327
00:15:03,165 --> 00:15:06,375
is the wrong phrase, but where are
some of the big switches come, I guess,

328
00:15:06,375 --> 00:15:08,175
for clients in those 12, 15 years,

329
00:15:11,550 --> 00:15:13,530
I think there's a polarization
starting to happen here.

330
00:15:13,530 --> 00:15:17,100
We've got clients that are very,
at least in the system side, the

331
00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:20,340
platform side, and then I'll get
right to answering your question here.

332
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,320
Um, we don't have a really great.

333
00:15:23,310 --> 00:15:25,230
Mid market solution.

334
00:15:25,470 --> 00:15:28,800
In terms of, if you've got any
kind of complexity in your stuff

335
00:15:28,860 --> 00:15:32,460
as a client, you're probably are
outgrowing or it's risky to be on

336
00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:35,730
your typical SAS type tools, like
a big commerce or stop fighting.

337
00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:38,460
We love these tools, but
there's the risk there.

338
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:42,495
If you're going to build in somebody
else's backyard on the flip side, You

339
00:15:42,495 --> 00:15:46,755
know, the platforms that are much more
extensible, scalable, codeable have gotten

340
00:15:46,755 --> 00:15:51,824
very complex and require a, uh, quite a
bit amount of overhead just to maintain.

341
00:15:52,215 --> 00:15:57,135
And so I think clients, when they're
coming in, um, we're seeing this

342
00:15:57,135 --> 00:15:59,685
dichotomy, this extreme of, you know,
they kind of grew up in this world.

343
00:15:59,715 --> 00:16:01,125
How come it's so complex now?

344
00:16:01,305 --> 00:16:02,834
I mean, you would think
things are getting easier.

345
00:16:04,140 --> 00:16:07,199
And in all this great customization,
you can do things have gotten

346
00:16:07,199 --> 00:16:10,020
complex and, and there is.

347
00:16:10,290 --> 00:16:13,050
And while it's great, if you're not
leveraging that, it can just be this

348
00:16:13,050 --> 00:16:14,280
burden, this technological burden.

349
00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:15,810
So we're seeing.

350
00:16:17,439 --> 00:16:20,260
I'm seeing in some groups, just
this realization that, you know,

351
00:16:20,260 --> 00:16:21,490
we have to sink all the way in.

352
00:16:21,490 --> 00:16:22,630
If we're going to do
this, we got to do it.

353
00:16:22,630 --> 00:16:22,840
Right.

354
00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:23,740
We got to build right.

355
00:16:23,740 --> 00:16:24,640
We got to build the foundation.

356
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:24,880
Right.

357
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:28,720
And we gotta be, this is not just an
adjunct anymore, or it's not just a hobby

358
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,450
part of our business, or it is the end.

359
00:16:31,450 --> 00:16:31,960
All right.

360
00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:36,100
We are, even if we're not direct
to consumer, we've got all of our

361
00:16:36,100 --> 00:16:39,189
stakeholders coming in now, our
vendors, our partners, our sales reps.

362
00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:39,550
Right.

363
00:16:39,550 --> 00:16:40,870
And so it doesn't necessarily have to be.

364
00:16:41,925 --> 00:16:44,055
DTC direct to consumer sale.

365
00:16:44,415 --> 00:16:51,285
So we're seeing that develop, uh, and
then we're seeing, um, on another side,

366
00:16:52,155 --> 00:16:56,445
The manufacturers and the B2B starting
to realize, and we don't call it.

367
00:16:56,445 --> 00:16:59,085
E-com generally speaking when I'm
talking, because I still think that

368
00:16:59,475 --> 00:17:02,295
when I bring that, when I use that
phrase that they're thinking, no, that's

369
00:17:02,295 --> 00:17:05,385
not us, but really at the end of the
day, they're, they're getting digital.

370
00:17:05,385 --> 00:17:05,865
They're starting.

371
00:17:05,865 --> 00:17:06,855
Everything is.

372
00:17:07,730 --> 00:17:12,260
Web based, and that is becoming the
hub and whether it's gated or it's

373
00:17:12,260 --> 00:17:16,730
not, or we've got, you know, it's
internet versus extra net, it's still

374
00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:20,570
very much a web-based e-commerce
solution that is happening there.

375
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,500
So those are some of the nuances
I think we're seeing that's

376
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,910
really fascinating because I,
again, I've had this conversation.

377
00:17:27,940 --> 00:17:29,930
I don't think we've talked about it
too much on the show, but I've had

378
00:17:29,930 --> 00:17:31,220
this conversation with a lot of people.

379
00:17:31,220 --> 00:17:33,920
How, what you say is correct
that there is no real.

380
00:17:35,295 --> 00:17:39,435
Well, there aren't many people I
think, operating in the mid tier

381
00:17:39,435 --> 00:17:41,504
of the e-commerce platform section.

382
00:17:41,504 --> 00:17:45,825
So you are right Shopify, which is, you
know, there's a whole bunch of them,

383
00:17:45,825 --> 00:17:48,915
but let's pick on Shopify because it's
the one most people know right at the

384
00:17:48,915 --> 00:17:50,445
beginning, I want to launch a site.

385
00:17:50,595 --> 00:17:51,335
I'm gonna go to Shopify.

386
00:17:51,335 --> 00:17:52,895
I'm gonna pay my 20
bucks a month for a show.

387
00:17:52,895 --> 00:17:54,105
I've got my site going up.

388
00:17:54,915 --> 00:17:56,325
Um, there comes a point.

389
00:17:57,375 --> 00:18:00,525
Uh, certainly my experiences,
there comes a point where your

390
00:18:00,525 --> 00:18:05,415
e-commerce business is big enough
or it's so big, or you want a hole.

391
00:18:05,955 --> 00:18:08,745
You want a level of
complexity to your site.

392
00:18:09,885 --> 00:18:13,965
You or you want it to make, be bespoke
that actually what you get with

393
00:18:13,965 --> 00:18:15,465
Shopify no longer meets your needs.

394
00:18:15,465 --> 00:18:18,345
And you, you want to sort of develop
beyond the boundaries of Shopify

395
00:18:18,345 --> 00:18:19,395
for want of a better expression.

396
00:18:19,605 --> 00:18:24,045
I think Shopify has changed in this
platform, but certainly for a long time,

397
00:18:24,045 --> 00:18:25,635
this, you know, it was quite restricted.

398
00:18:26,355 --> 00:18:31,035
And so then, um, you would, you would
meet people who would go, right?

399
00:18:31,065 --> 00:18:31,985
I want to upgrade my.

400
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:36,780
And when I, you know, cause I do
the coaching side of things, I see

401
00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:39,690
a lot of the disasters of these
upgrades, you know, where they go

402
00:18:39,690 --> 00:18:41,490
and spend a hundred, 200 grand.

403
00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:44,550
They'll probably go on
some platform like Magento.

404
00:18:44,850 --> 00:18:48,600
Um, uh, and, um, it's not just
magenta, not as picking on Magento

405
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:50,040
or anything along those lines.

406
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:50,220
Yeah.

407
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:50,430
Yeah.

408
00:18:50,430 --> 00:18:51,360
Anything along those lines.

409
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:52,710
Um, and.

410
00:18:53,415 --> 00:18:56,115
They're usually very
expensive, very complicated.

411
00:18:56,145 --> 00:19:00,585
They suck the life out of
everybody along the way.

412
00:19:01,004 --> 00:19:07,035
And so that didn't seem to be a, sort of
a happy medium where, you know, actually

413
00:19:07,035 --> 00:19:10,185
I don't need the big Magento because
I've not got the structure, the resource,

414
00:19:10,514 --> 00:19:12,915
the team to, to deliver that project.

415
00:19:12,915 --> 00:19:13,845
Well, yeah.

416
00:19:14,835 --> 00:19:16,875
But I do need something
here in the middle.

417
00:19:16,875 --> 00:19:19,455
And is that where you guys
operated at iron planes this way

418
00:19:19,455 --> 00:19:21,045
you kind of have made your mock?

419
00:19:21,345 --> 00:19:24,285
Well, I think, you know,
in years past, yes.

420
00:19:24,285 --> 00:19:28,335
I think we were always dealing
with clients that had a more

421
00:19:28,335 --> 00:19:29,205
complex needs as you put it.

422
00:19:29,205 --> 00:19:29,445
Right.

423
00:19:29,475 --> 00:19:32,415
I mean, whether it was integrations or
their branding and they, and they just

424
00:19:32,415 --> 00:19:36,525
couldn't live in the box of turnkey
solutions or true SAS solutions.

425
00:19:36,855 --> 00:19:38,625
Uh, we definitely made our mark there.

426
00:19:39,515 --> 00:19:43,895
We've enforced up market even a little
bit more just because we are, we're very

427
00:19:43,895 --> 00:19:46,025
much a Magento shop and big commerce.

428
00:19:46,025 --> 00:19:48,965
These are the two platforms, and then we
do custom for those clients that truly

429
00:19:48,965 --> 00:19:50,345
don't fit into either one of those camps.

430
00:19:50,555 --> 00:19:51,005
Okay.

431
00:19:51,125 --> 00:19:51,275
Okay.

432
00:19:52,545 --> 00:19:55,005
Within that sometimes I'll be
looking at somebody and going

433
00:19:55,005 --> 00:19:58,455
there on Magento and I'm going,
you know, this is too much for you.

434
00:19:58,485 --> 00:19:59,895
You don't, you don't need to be here.

435
00:19:59,895 --> 00:20:03,945
Let's, let's, you're going to lose
maybe 5% of functionality or something,

436
00:20:03,945 --> 00:20:07,515
but you're going to gain so much more
freedom of not thinking about this thing.

437
00:20:07,845 --> 00:20:10,545
12 hours a day, the technology
should fall to them.

438
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,100
This is what I always tell my clients,
unless you are a dev shop or you,

439
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,100
and, you know, you just, you know, you
have a passion for punishment because

440
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:19,720
you love it for some reason, right.

441
00:20:20,020 --> 00:20:23,650
You know, the, the technology needs
to fall back and you should be

442
00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:25,720
able to, it should be driving your
business, not the other way around.

443
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,380
And I just think that particularly
when we have owner operators who have

444
00:20:29,380 --> 00:20:32,110
been growing, because, you know, so
it's not an established enterprise

445
00:20:32,110 --> 00:20:33,490
company with it departments, right.

446
00:20:33,790 --> 00:20:36,880
Owner operators who have grown
to that 20, $30 million range.

447
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:37,180
And.

448
00:20:38,370 --> 00:20:43,230
They still often are the ones ruffling
the most with Patrick's solutions, even

449
00:20:43,230 --> 00:20:47,550
if it was a good platform to begin with
their quarters have been caught or wasn't

450
00:20:47,550 --> 00:20:52,350
always the right fit, but they can make,
do we want them to step back and look and

451
00:20:52,350 --> 00:20:54,330
go let's let's look at all your state.

452
00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:56,210
Uh, internal and external.

453
00:20:56,210 --> 00:20:58,310
I mean, is it your customer service
reps, your clients, your vendors,

454
00:20:58,310 --> 00:21:02,060
your partners, you w and then what are
they looking for out of your platform?

455
00:21:02,210 --> 00:21:04,429
And let's start to look at this 80
20 thing, and it's just a simple

456
00:21:04,429 --> 00:21:08,149
matrix at the end of the day, and,
you know, knowing full well that

457
00:21:08,149 --> 00:21:09,139
no, solution's going to be perfect.

458
00:21:10,185 --> 00:21:14,565
But if we can get 80% of the way
there cobbled together, the next 10%,

459
00:21:14,715 --> 00:21:18,705
you know, this is probably gonna be
more than you need for a long time.

460
00:21:18,915 --> 00:21:22,245
And so when, a lot of time in our
world, one to three years, right.

461
00:21:22,245 --> 00:21:24,345
And so I'm sorry.

462
00:21:24,345 --> 00:21:25,185
I want to caveat that.

463
00:21:25,455 --> 00:21:28,755
I mean, nothing in technology,
but it really drives, it

464
00:21:28,755 --> 00:21:30,255
helps drive the decision.

465
00:21:30,855 --> 00:21:31,155
I don't know.

466
00:21:31,365 --> 00:21:32,805
Sometimes they feel like they
just have a breath of fresh air.

467
00:21:32,835 --> 00:21:33,965
They just sigh relief, like.

468
00:21:34,890 --> 00:21:38,370
I don't have to just keep pouring
in 10 grand a month to just keep the

469
00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:40,290
lights on, on my website, you know?

470
00:21:40,590 --> 00:21:43,020
And like, no, you shouldn't be doing that.

471
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,180
I mean, unless you're a scale
that that's a pittance, right?

472
00:21:47,190 --> 00:21:51,660
And so this is where we're we're most of
our conversations these days are that way.

473
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,240
In fact, I'm having one after this
podcast day with a company they've

474
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:56,100
grown beautifully, they grow 30% a year.

475
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,660
Um, consumer directly.

476
00:21:58,710 --> 00:22:02,910
Lots of content, like a great content,
lots of skews, but not overly complex.

477
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:07,070
And, but they have complex
integrations with their ERP systems.

478
00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:08,730
So they need to be on
something like a Magento.

479
00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:12,900
Um, but they're the siren song of
a Shopify is calling to this owner

480
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,960
because he's like, I'm just so
tired of Magento, not being fast.

481
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:16,530
I'm so tired.

482
00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:19,650
I'm so tired of my marketing team
saying they can't do what they want

483
00:22:19,650 --> 00:22:20,880
to do without a developer coming in.

484
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,140
And we're like, well, step back,
because realistically it just wasn't

485
00:22:25,230 --> 00:22:26,790
built with the right tools in place.

486
00:22:27,570 --> 00:22:28,890
Um, getting back to
the woodworking, right?

487
00:22:28,890 --> 00:22:30,240
We're always talking
about bringing tools here.

488
00:22:30,270 --> 00:22:33,120
And so, you know, and if we can find those
right tools and if they do what you do.

489
00:22:34,635 --> 00:22:38,745
This, you know, moving platforms is
painful and you're getting in going from

490
00:22:38,745 --> 00:22:43,125
what you know, and all the tissues to what
you don't know, and the promise of glory.

491
00:22:43,845 --> 00:22:45,165
There's always a big gap there.

492
00:22:45,165 --> 00:22:49,185
And so we're really helping them to
dissect down what are your true business

493
00:22:49,185 --> 00:22:51,735
needs and who are all the stakeholders
and what are they really want?

494
00:22:51,915 --> 00:22:54,915
Is it the marketing just wants to be
able to create a landing page and not

495
00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,085
have to call a developer every day.

496
00:22:56,265 --> 00:22:56,475
Okay.

497
00:22:56,475 --> 00:22:57,405
There are ways to do that.

498
00:22:57,405 --> 00:22:59,295
Let's let's solve those issues, right?

499
00:23:00,100 --> 00:23:03,820
That's how we try to approach these things
and not throw everything out all at once.

500
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:04,390
Yeah.

501
00:23:04,450 --> 00:23:06,190
I liked that approach, Robert.

502
00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:09,640
I really do, because it makes an
awful lot of sense because I think

503
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,280
you, when I've seen it go wrong.

504
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:12,790
Yeah.

505
00:23:13,090 --> 00:23:16,510
Uh, when, you know, and if, if people are
listening to the show and they're like,

506
00:23:16,540 --> 00:23:20,020
well, I'm kind of at the stage where
I'm thinking of upgrading or moving to

507
00:23:20,020 --> 00:23:23,110
Magento or whatever, you know, wherever
they're at in their e-commerce journey.

508
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,040
Um, and you, you kinda,
where I've seen it.

509
00:23:28,065 --> 00:23:37,785
Usually it comes down to a mist managed
expectations, and that always comes

510
00:23:37,785 --> 00:23:41,745
down to the not great communication
either from the client to the

511
00:23:41,745 --> 00:23:45,555
agency, because I've, I've met some
agencies where I've had questions.

512
00:23:46,455 --> 00:23:48,885
But generally speaking they're all right.

513
00:23:49,065 --> 00:23:49,485
You know what I mean?

514
00:23:49,485 --> 00:23:54,525
Some are better than others, but, um,
and so that there's responsibility

515
00:23:54,525 --> 00:23:57,375
on the client because they've not
communicated well to the agency.

516
00:23:57,375 --> 00:23:59,415
And then there's a responsibility
on the agency where they've not

517
00:23:59,415 --> 00:24:00,705
communicated well to the client.

518
00:24:00,715 --> 00:24:03,435
And when you do this in
communication, you miss each other.

519
00:24:04,065 --> 00:24:08,475
Um, that's as if anyone has been married
for more than a few years can attest to

520
00:24:08,655 --> 00:24:10,365
that's when the problems start to happen.

521
00:24:12,340 --> 00:24:13,420
Is that your experience?

522
00:24:13,450 --> 00:24:15,070
And I guess, how do you manage that?

523
00:24:15,070 --> 00:24:17,470
How do you, how do you
manage those expectations?

524
00:24:17,980 --> 00:24:21,250
I think this is three quarters
of our job as an agency is man.

525
00:24:21,850 --> 00:24:25,090
I hate to say it like my
director of operations.

526
00:24:25,090 --> 00:24:26,050
Like I just feel like that.

527
00:24:26,230 --> 00:24:27,970
I mean, yeah, there's always
an issue of the quality.

528
00:24:27,970 --> 00:24:30,970
You want to make sure that the PM's
and the devs everybody's working

529
00:24:30,970 --> 00:24:34,390
well and billable hours where they
got, but that's very predictable.

530
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:35,410
It's over here.

531
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:40,470
Account executives and well, it
starts with sales, you know, and

532
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:42,030
really when you're talking to.

533
00:24:43,470 --> 00:24:44,310
You hit it on the head.

534
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:47,490
There is this, when we're saying this,
we got to make sure they really, you

535
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:50,850
know, their definition of what works,
even simple things like front-end themes.

536
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:54,090
You can't believe how this
can be translated in our mind.

537
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:57,150
A custom front end theme is, you know,
you're a thousand hours, you know,

538
00:24:57,150 --> 00:24:58,710
a turnkey theme you're at 50 hours.

539
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:58,890
Right.

540
00:24:58,890 --> 00:25:02,350
You know, but we talked to somebody
and in their mind it's yeah.

541
00:25:02,350 --> 00:25:06,330
You know, I'm going to have the
next and greatest and care possible.

542
00:25:07,155 --> 00:25:08,025
You know, a thousand dollars.

543
00:25:08,025 --> 00:25:08,205
Right.

544
00:25:08,775 --> 00:25:11,085
And so, you know, there's
always this, this thing.

545
00:25:11,085 --> 00:25:13,035
So we as an agency, I think, yeah.

546
00:25:13,784 --> 00:25:17,925
The primary responsibility to,
to be on the lookout for that.

547
00:25:17,985 --> 00:25:20,594
And to always think of
who you're talking to.

548
00:25:20,594 --> 00:25:24,854
When we internally, we always say, okay,
you hate to use this word stakeholders,

549
00:25:24,854 --> 00:25:26,145
but I think it's the right one here.

550
00:25:26,985 --> 00:25:28,094
Who are you talking to?

551
00:25:28,104 --> 00:25:28,965
Are you talking to marketing?

552
00:25:28,965 --> 00:25:29,655
You're talking to it.

553
00:25:29,655 --> 00:25:30,524
You're talking to the owner.

554
00:25:30,554 --> 00:25:33,225
Are you talking to, you know,
big, small, how have they grown?

555
00:25:33,465 --> 00:25:36,554
What do we think is their
vocabulary internally?

556
00:25:36,794 --> 00:25:39,014
Because if we start talking about.

557
00:25:39,665 --> 00:25:41,705
And they go repeat it internally there.

558
00:25:41,945 --> 00:25:43,805
And the context is all out of whack.

559
00:25:44,045 --> 00:25:47,825
I promise in 60 days we're going to
have a problem because, you know, even

560
00:25:47,825 --> 00:25:51,575
if everybody's meeting daily, even if
we're in the project manager tools and

561
00:25:51,575 --> 00:25:55,235
tracking it down to the minute, you know,
even if all that stuff is there, you're

562
00:25:55,235 --> 00:25:57,035
still going to have a missed expectation.

563
00:25:57,455 --> 00:26:01,325
And so, and that can be
disastrous for everybody because.

564
00:26:02,220 --> 00:26:03,210
Beholden to somebody else.

565
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:03,510
Right.

566
00:26:03,510 --> 00:26:05,490
And so something like that, I think.

567
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:12,810
And so we need to, as an agency, always
think about who we're talking to and

568
00:26:12,810 --> 00:26:15,000
what is it, what is their lens on it?

569
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,750
And this is why we try to run through
this exercise with our clients,

570
00:26:18,750 --> 00:26:21,210
particularly in the earliest ages,
but honestly, even a quarterly review.

571
00:26:21,930 --> 00:26:24,870
Definitely the early stages,
this matrix of who are all your

572
00:26:24,870 --> 00:26:28,380
stakeholders and what is, what are
they expecting out of this, right?

573
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:29,670
CFO's a stakeholder.

574
00:26:29,730 --> 00:26:30,300
They're expecting it.

575
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,670
Not to go above this cap X
budget, no matter what, right?

576
00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:33,720
This is where it hits.

577
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:35,930
We're not trying to use the whole cap X,
but we're always trying to tell people,

578
00:26:35,940 --> 00:26:38,190
we're not trying to spend your money,
but you know, if we come back to you

579
00:26:38,190 --> 00:26:42,705
with a half million dollar solution and
you had a $20,000 budget, And we spent

580
00:26:42,705 --> 00:26:44,055
three months in discovery together.

581
00:26:45,765 --> 00:26:47,685
Somebody is not going to be
happy with somebody, you know?

582
00:26:48,195 --> 00:26:51,735
And so, I mean, it's, so it's that
basic, uh, that we're always trying

583
00:26:51,735 --> 00:26:56,265
to help them align internally and,
and then us align that as well.

584
00:26:56,265 --> 00:26:57,855
And I think that's
where the better agents.

585
00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:01,740
I'm very proactive on that and
not just collecting the box,

586
00:27:01,770 --> 00:27:03,270
not just billing the hours.

587
00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:06,750
Um, now in our world, we're, we're
looking for the long term relationship.

588
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,310
We're not about one-off builds.

589
00:27:08,370 --> 00:27:09,540
Uh, it's never been our style.

590
00:27:09,540 --> 00:27:12,690
And so it's, it's extremely
important for us to do that.

591
00:27:12,930 --> 00:27:15,450
If your bill, if your agency
is very much build it and

592
00:27:15,450 --> 00:27:16,440
they go on to get other folks.

593
00:27:17,565 --> 00:27:19,815
You know, you've got to get through
that bill, but it's not gonna, it's not

594
00:27:19,815 --> 00:27:21,165
gonna be, it's not going to be pretty.

595
00:27:21,165 --> 00:27:24,015
I don't think, I think I learned
a lot from a friend of mine.

596
00:27:24,015 --> 00:27:24,435
Actually.

597
00:27:24,435 --> 00:27:26,475
He is a, uh, he's.

598
00:27:26,535 --> 00:27:30,975
He owns the Lexus dealership here in,
in, uh, in the city next to his Chestnut.

599
00:27:32,055 --> 00:27:33,485
And, um, he.

600
00:27:34,185 --> 00:27:39,195
Here's a guy he's a really great guy,
tightly, uh, thing that the bones often,

601
00:27:39,195 --> 00:27:42,345
basically, it's just, it's just a legend
this anyway, he's the kind of guy that

602
00:27:42,345 --> 00:27:46,155
will sit me down and he will say, Matt,
this is what I paid for that car, because

603
00:27:46,155 --> 00:27:47,355
I would always buy my cars from him.

604
00:27:47,625 --> 00:27:49,814
And I was like, he said, this
is what I paid for the car.

605
00:27:49,814 --> 00:27:51,195
This is how much I'm selling it to you.

606
00:27:51,195 --> 00:27:51,615
And this is the.

607
00:27:52,635 --> 00:27:57,975
And I have no reason to doubt him
because there's a trustworthy man, but

608
00:27:57,975 --> 00:28:01,335
the difference between the price of the
car and the price, he sold it to me too.

609
00:28:01,455 --> 00:28:02,325
Weren't that great?

610
00:28:02,775 --> 00:28:04,485
And I'm like, dude, how
do you make your money?

611
00:28:04,485 --> 00:28:06,495
Because this is a beautiful showroom.

612
00:28:06,495 --> 00:28:08,625
This is not a cheap
place to run every month.

613
00:28:08,625 --> 00:28:09,645
How do you make your money?

614
00:28:10,005 --> 00:28:13,455
And it's like, well, we get rebates,
um, obviously from the car company,

615
00:28:13,935 --> 00:28:16,425
but we make our money on the
long-term relationship with them.

616
00:28:17,315 --> 00:28:19,325
Every time they come in
for an mot and a service.

617
00:28:20,045 --> 00:28:23,435
And he said, I, if we treat
our clients, well, then the

618
00:28:23,435 --> 00:28:26,075
service in center is 80% full.

619
00:28:26,255 --> 00:28:28,955
And if it's over 60%
for we're making profit.

620
00:28:29,405 --> 00:28:32,015
In other words, he's, he's, he's
treating the client right at the

621
00:28:32,015 --> 00:28:34,025
top to fill this sort of long-term.

622
00:28:34,265 --> 00:28:37,085
And I thought that was,
that was, that was clever.

623
00:28:37,085 --> 00:28:39,875
And that's in effect what
I see good agencies doing.

624
00:28:39,905 --> 00:28:40,025
Yeah.

625
00:28:41,354 --> 00:28:45,284
You know, when people go to an agency,
the biggest fear that they've got in

626
00:28:45,284 --> 00:28:48,735
their heads, whenever they go to an agency
is you guys are going to rip me off.

627
00:28:48,975 --> 00:28:53,145
I'm going to have to go mortgage my
right kidney, and I'm going to get, you

628
00:28:53,145 --> 00:28:55,665
know, nothing really at the end of it.

629
00:28:55,814 --> 00:28:59,534
And it there's a real vulnerability,
I think there, uh, when people

630
00:28:59,534 --> 00:29:02,205
come to an agency, um, so
treat them right at the top.

631
00:29:02,235 --> 00:29:03,615
You keep them down a lonely.

632
00:29:05,845 --> 00:29:09,445
Here at Orien digital, we know
firsthand that running an e-commerce

633
00:29:09,445 --> 00:29:11,305
business can be really hard work.

634
00:29:11,815 --> 00:29:14,005
As the online space gets more competitive.

635
00:29:14,065 --> 00:29:17,065
It is becoming even more challenging
to stay ahead of the curve.

636
00:29:17,275 --> 00:29:18,445
We totally get it.

637
00:29:18,595 --> 00:29:22,555
So we want to help you succeed by
offering a wide range of services from

638
00:29:22,555 --> 00:29:27,385
fulfillment marketing, customer service,
and even coaching and consulting, just

639
00:29:27,385 --> 00:29:29,275
so that you can do what matters most.

640
00:29:29,575 --> 00:29:33,265
Save yourself the time and the money
and let us handle the day to day tasks.

641
00:29:34,034 --> 00:29:37,574
This way you can run your business without
having to worry about the boring stuff.

642
00:29:37,995 --> 00:29:40,395
So what do you say, are we
a good fit for each other?

643
00:29:40,875 --> 00:29:44,024
Come check us out@orientdigital.com
and let us know what you.

644
00:29:53,084 --> 00:29:54,135
so Robert for you.

645
00:29:54,495 --> 00:29:54,764
Yeah.

646
00:29:56,235 --> 00:29:57,824
What are some of the things?

647
00:29:58,125 --> 00:30:01,784
Um, cause I, you know, the people
listening to this show are, are

648
00:30:01,784 --> 00:30:06,344
in effect your potential clients,
or maybe not your personal, but

649
00:30:06,375 --> 00:30:07,725
agencies, prospective clients.

650
00:30:07,725 --> 00:30:11,235
They're going to be wanting to use an
agency at some point in their e-commerce

651
00:30:11,235 --> 00:30:12,764
growth or they are using an agency.

652
00:30:14,175 --> 00:30:15,225
To help them do something.

653
00:30:15,225 --> 00:30:23,085
So how can we, as the consumer, as the,
the stakeholder to use your language,

654
00:30:23,294 --> 00:30:26,534
how can we better help ourselves
get ready to work with an agency?

655
00:30:26,534 --> 00:30:29,835
What are some of the things that you
wish we would know before we give you a

656
00:30:29,835 --> 00:30:36,825
call run through that exercise and really
figure out who really cares about the

657
00:30:36,825 --> 00:30:39,254
project and what they want out of it?

658
00:30:39,375 --> 00:30:43,995
Uh, Again, I come from
a business perspective.

659
00:30:44,055 --> 00:30:47,685
I'm going to have on my call,
somebody from our tech side.

660
00:30:47,685 --> 00:30:47,955
You're right.

661
00:30:47,955 --> 00:30:50,955
As we thinking about it from a pure
systems analysis, I'm going to have

662
00:30:50,955 --> 00:30:54,105
somebody probably for our UX and design
and branding, you know, they're to be

663
00:30:54,105 --> 00:30:55,155
thinking about it from that perspective.

664
00:30:55,155 --> 00:30:56,625
So we have our own silos as well.

665
00:30:56,625 --> 00:30:56,865
Right.

666
00:30:56,865 --> 00:30:59,985
And so, um, and we want to
bring that to the table.

667
00:30:59,985 --> 00:31:06,389
So, uh, As much as our clients can
bring that to the table earlier in

668
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:11,909
the process, the better, because it'll
help them to identify what they really

669
00:31:11,909 --> 00:31:14,129
need out of whatever work we're doing.

670
00:31:14,340 --> 00:31:16,919
And so, um, because everybody
wants everything, right.

671
00:31:16,919 --> 00:31:19,409
I mean, you know, there's, you know,
we want this site to do this and we're,

672
00:31:19,530 --> 00:31:21,870
we're fully expect that we're going
to leverage a hundred percent of that

673
00:31:21,870 --> 00:31:24,780
platform and know the reality is right.

674
00:31:24,780 --> 00:31:29,595
You know, We're going to go for the
quick wins and then build on that

675
00:31:29,595 --> 00:31:33,645
foundation so that you can start to
incorporate whatever it is we're doing.

676
00:31:33,645 --> 00:31:36,285
And this sounds very broad and
general, but you know, we just see

677
00:31:36,285 --> 00:31:41,505
folks, they have a vision of a month
or a year down the road, and it's

678
00:31:41,505 --> 00:31:43,455
great, but there's this big gap of.

679
00:31:44,340 --> 00:31:46,080
What it should look like
a month down the road.

680
00:31:46,290 --> 00:31:50,610
Uh, and, and it's, and there's this black
box, and this gets to what you're talking

681
00:31:50,610 --> 00:31:51,900
about, how people don't trust agency.

682
00:31:51,910 --> 00:31:52,710
So they get afraid.

683
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:53,010
Right?

684
00:31:53,310 --> 00:31:55,760
Uh, they don't want to show that they
don't understand because then they're

685
00:31:55,830 --> 00:31:58,200
going to be taken advantage of, and
then this creates this vicious loop.

686
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Right.

687
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,040
And then we go into ultra explanation
mode and they feel even more lost

688
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,210
because the tech person's talk, you
know, about code and then, you know,

689
00:32:06,270 --> 00:32:07,190
the business person's lack of data.

690
00:32:07,190 --> 00:32:07,320
You.

691
00:32:07,450 --> 00:32:07,580
Yeah.

692
00:32:08,955 --> 00:32:10,185
Self-fulfilling prophecy.

693
00:32:10,695 --> 00:32:11,264
I like it too.

694
00:32:11,324 --> 00:32:12,014
I'm not a car guy.

695
00:32:12,435 --> 00:32:14,294
I don't like driving, not a big car.

696
00:32:14,655 --> 00:32:16,095
My wife is the one that drives
everything and I was right.

697
00:32:16,095 --> 00:32:18,524
And so, but we have a mechanic
and it took years for me to come

698
00:32:18,524 --> 00:32:19,814
to trust the mechanic because.

699
00:32:20,745 --> 00:32:22,365
Every time we took the car
in no matter what it was.

700
00:32:22,425 --> 00:32:23,085
It's 500 bucks.

701
00:32:23,235 --> 00:32:26,535
It's a little bit like you're looking I
to I'm like, you know, my car is making

702
00:32:26,535 --> 00:32:29,385
a little ding and to be 500 bucks and
we have to do the discovery by the way.

703
00:32:29,625 --> 00:32:30,885
I mean the version of a discovery, right.

704
00:32:30,885 --> 00:32:32,715
You know, a code review.

705
00:32:32,715 --> 00:32:32,925
Right.

706
00:32:32,925 --> 00:32:34,035
You know, and I'm like, okay.

707
00:32:34,065 --> 00:32:37,725
So I got like $300 go to review, and
now I'm going to be another 500 plus.

708
00:32:37,755 --> 00:32:38,595
And it's, I can be right for.

709
00:32:39,275 --> 00:32:40,985
And they're likely to call me
at three and say, it's gonna be

710
00:32:40,985 --> 00:32:43,175
another four after that, you know,
because of supply chains ordinance.

711
00:32:43,175 --> 00:32:43,355
Right.

712
00:32:43,625 --> 00:32:47,135
So the funny thing is there's just this
parallelism to what I do as an agency.

713
00:32:47,135 --> 00:32:51,005
And I felt in my earliest days when I
would be on every sales call, uh, and

714
00:32:51,005 --> 00:32:54,485
people calling in, I could feel that
trepidation on the other side of the line.

715
00:32:54,515 --> 00:32:57,845
I mean, you know, they just
didn't know they were where

716
00:32:57,855 --> 00:32:58,955
they're being taken advantage of.

717
00:32:59,105 --> 00:33:03,125
They probably felt like they have been
taken advantage of in the past where they

718
00:33:03,575 --> 00:33:07,355
probably not probably missed expectations,
probably just two ships passing.

719
00:33:07,715 --> 00:33:10,935
Um, Not a good fit, not a good alignment.

720
00:33:11,355 --> 00:33:17,655
And this is where as much as people
you want to come in knowing what it is

721
00:33:17,655 --> 00:33:23,025
you're trying to accomplish, and then
that your agencies, a few of them, you

722
00:33:23,025 --> 00:33:27,225
know how well they seem to respond to
what your goals are, your business goals

723
00:33:27,225 --> 00:33:28,875
are, or if you know your technical goals.

724
00:33:29,145 --> 00:33:31,695
And if they can talk that language
with you, you've got a good chance.

725
00:33:31,695 --> 00:33:35,415
You're gonna start bridging, uh, the,
the expectation gap pretty quickly.

726
00:33:35,505 --> 00:33:35,955
And so.

727
00:33:36,750 --> 00:33:40,230
I think that that's so short
answer is I like, no, no.

728
00:33:40,230 --> 00:33:42,510
What your business goals are and what
you're really trying to accomplish

729
00:33:42,510 --> 00:33:43,440
and who the stakeholders are.

730
00:33:43,770 --> 00:33:47,280
And then as you're listening to
agencies, don't get caught up in

731
00:33:47,310 --> 00:33:51,390
all the promises of what can be,
see if they're talking to your goal.

732
00:33:52,379 --> 00:33:56,370
And if they are, because you can always
solve something, there's always a tool.

733
00:33:56,399 --> 00:33:59,159
I mean, and, and, and, you know, in
our world, like, we'll tell people

734
00:33:59,159 --> 00:34:01,740
like, look, we've got these two
tools that our backpack that we

735
00:34:01,740 --> 00:34:03,750
use, and then we've got these other
ones that we're really good at.

736
00:34:03,959 --> 00:34:07,980
But if you're out of that set, we're going
to recommend you to go over here because

737
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,279
we're not going to pretend that we can,
that we've mastered this other thing.

738
00:34:11,370 --> 00:34:13,230
And so it's the only brought that back.

739
00:34:14,145 --> 00:34:14,745
Yeah, I did.

740
00:34:14,835 --> 00:34:18,074
I was I'm I'm already thinking about
ham planes, but let's not go there.

741
00:34:20,085 --> 00:34:25,364
But, um, I, I like that, you know, and
I, I, I guess I'm, if I, if I'm going

742
00:34:25,364 --> 00:34:31,694
to play, uh, this slightly contentious
into your role here, um, How do I

743
00:34:31,694 --> 00:34:34,484
know what my business goals are?

744
00:34:34,484 --> 00:34:39,705
And I, I ha how do you see what I
mean, I can hear people get in stuck

745
00:34:40,605 --> 00:34:43,634
point straight away and they'll get
over complex where a good agency

746
00:34:43,634 --> 00:34:47,054
actually is worth their weight in gold,
because they will help you understand

747
00:34:47,054 --> 00:34:48,614
these by asking clarifying questions.

748
00:34:49,214 --> 00:34:52,725
Um, but I do agree the more you can do
before you talk the agency the better.

749
00:34:53,084 --> 00:34:57,135
So when you, uh, So let's run through some
really practical examples just to help

750
00:34:57,135 --> 00:34:58,875
people understand that the terminology.

751
00:34:58,875 --> 00:35:04,965
So, um, how would I go about figuring
out what my business goals are?

752
00:35:04,995 --> 00:35:07,125
And let's say I'm just looking
for products I've got around here.

753
00:35:07,305 --> 00:35:11,215
I've got some little candles here that,
again, people listening will be able to

754
00:35:11,235 --> 00:35:12,225
this, but I've got some little candles.

755
00:35:12,735 --> 00:35:15,585
Um, let's say I've got a little
can, I've got a candle website.

756
00:35:15,615 --> 00:35:17,565
I mainly find she candles
and I'm turning over.

757
00:35:17,565 --> 00:35:19,965
I don't know, 15 million online.

758
00:35:20,025 --> 00:35:22,215
I'm on a Shopify site
and I'm kind of going.

759
00:35:23,070 --> 00:35:27,240
I want to do a few more bits and bobs,
how do I start to think about, okay.

760
00:35:27,510 --> 00:35:30,630
I mean the most basic level,
I always tell me, I mean, this

761
00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:31,710
doesn't have to be able to complex.

762
00:35:31,710 --> 00:35:34,740
Are you looking to, and everyone's
going to say, I want all of these,

763
00:35:34,740 --> 00:35:38,580
but if you had to pick one, am I
looking to bring in new business?

764
00:35:38,850 --> 00:35:40,710
Am I looking to bring
back existing business?

765
00:35:40,950 --> 00:35:43,710
Or am I looking to improve the
ones that are there, get them

766
00:35:43,710 --> 00:35:44,790
to buy more while they're there.

767
00:35:44,910 --> 00:35:45,270
Right.

768
00:35:45,510 --> 00:35:47,730
And obviously it's always
some combination of all three.

769
00:35:48,585 --> 00:35:49,575
We've got limited budgets.

770
00:35:49,575 --> 00:35:50,055
We've got limited.

771
00:35:50,055 --> 00:35:52,425
This, what is your, if you thought
out the next year, what would

772
00:35:52,425 --> 00:35:53,625
be the biggest thing for you?

773
00:35:53,745 --> 00:35:54,135
Right.

774
00:35:54,135 --> 00:35:57,135
And so, uh, that's
going to start to drive.

775
00:35:57,884 --> 00:35:59,355
Some of those technical answers.

776
00:35:59,355 --> 00:36:02,355
And so somebody says, I want a whole
bunch of new, you know, new business.

777
00:36:02,595 --> 00:36:04,754
Are we thinking we gotta get Omni
channel and we gotta, we gotta

778
00:36:04,765 --> 00:36:07,395
take this core platform and start
pushing out the Amazon marketplace

779
00:36:07,395 --> 00:36:11,024
and Walmart marketplace and wish and
true on all these other marketplaces.

780
00:36:11,415 --> 00:36:14,355
Are we thinking, you know, and
that's a technical that starts to

781
00:36:14,355 --> 00:36:15,825
become more of a platform question.

782
00:36:15,825 --> 00:36:18,855
Can your platform handle that or do
we need, are you moving off this core

783
00:36:18,855 --> 00:36:22,035
platform or are we going to bring in
other pieces to handle order management?

784
00:36:22,605 --> 00:36:24,945
That's where it starts
to dry the discussion.

785
00:36:25,215 --> 00:36:27,705
Somebody will tell me, oh, I'm
going to go to Magento because

786
00:36:27,765 --> 00:36:29,265
it can do all these things.

787
00:36:29,295 --> 00:36:33,085
And it's going to bring
me more business, maybe.

788
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,779
Mm, if we're leveraging it
the way, you know, to do that.

789
00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:39,840
And is that what you really want
or are you just trying to, do you

790
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,830
have a lot of business right now?

791
00:36:40,830 --> 00:36:41,400
Are you right?

792
00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:44,220
But your site is, it's a bad
user experience and we're

793
00:36:44,220 --> 00:36:45,540
losing conversion rate, right?

794
00:36:45,540 --> 00:36:48,330
We're not, you know, we, we don't
want to spend more money on marketing.

795
00:36:48,330 --> 00:36:49,310
We don't want to bring a new channel.

796
00:36:49,350 --> 00:36:50,520
We want to improve what we've got.

797
00:36:50,820 --> 00:36:54,060
That can be a very legitimate six
months, 12 months, 18 month goal.

798
00:36:54,450 --> 00:36:54,930
Okay.

799
00:36:54,990 --> 00:36:56,610
We're talking about
site optimization here.

800
00:36:56,610 --> 00:36:57,840
We're talking about user experience.

801
00:36:57,840 --> 00:36:58,710
We're talking about.

802
00:37:00,475 --> 00:37:03,334
Testing if you're big enough
or, I mean, you know, so I use

803
00:37:03,334 --> 00:37:05,904
user testing as a, uh, it's.

804
00:37:05,904 --> 00:37:09,805
It can be a black hole too,
so, but, you know, I think so.

805
00:37:09,805 --> 00:37:11,424
And it's really easy to say,
oh, you shouldn't, you know, you

806
00:37:11,424 --> 00:37:12,745
should test that like, well, okay.

807
00:37:12,745 --> 00:37:13,015
Yes.

808
00:37:13,044 --> 00:37:14,245
But, you know, yeah.

809
00:37:14,305 --> 00:37:15,475
I got 50 visitors a day.

810
00:37:15,504 --> 00:37:16,375
I mean, what am I going to test?

811
00:37:16,435 --> 00:37:22,375
And so, um, so it's, you know, it's,
it's, it's, this is where we're,

812
00:37:22,435 --> 00:37:23,995
we're trying to dive into that.

813
00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:27,795
Um, I've got, you know, we're, we're
talking to this one client right now.

814
00:37:27,795 --> 00:37:30,105
Their big thing is they want
to leverage their platform.

815
00:37:30,135 --> 00:37:34,875
They've got, they are distributor and they
sell to hundreds of mom and pop shops who

816
00:37:34,875 --> 00:37:39,645
don't have an e-comm presence, or if they
do it's very basic, they want to leverage

817
00:37:39,645 --> 00:37:41,955
their platform to create Microsoft.

818
00:37:42,535 --> 00:37:44,485
That are for all these people.

819
00:37:44,665 --> 00:37:46,165
And how great is that on
so many levels, right?

820
00:37:46,165 --> 00:37:47,735
I mean, you're gonna get
some vertical integration.

821
00:37:47,765 --> 00:37:49,075
You're solving a problem for them.

822
00:37:49,375 --> 00:37:49,585
Oh.

823
00:37:49,585 --> 00:37:51,655
And by the way, my product is the one
that's kind of running through the

824
00:37:51,655 --> 00:37:55,395
distribution channel there, you know, now
are you going to do that with a Shopify?

825
00:37:57,485 --> 00:38:00,175
You know, it's getting round peg
square hole or whatever it is,

826
00:38:00,175 --> 00:38:01,105
you know, square peg round hole.

827
00:38:01,345 --> 00:38:05,065
And so this is where I get a, a system
like a Magento is probably going

828
00:38:05,065 --> 00:38:08,185
to be a better platform for them
because they, you can leverage them.

829
00:38:08,970 --> 00:38:11,100
Psych component of it and
you start doing this, right?

830
00:38:11,310 --> 00:38:14,700
So this is how, when we talk, talking
about what is your business goals, where

831
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:19,170
are you in your business development,
then let's make the technology drive that.

832
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,090
So, yeah.

833
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:21,870
No, absolutely.

834
00:38:21,870 --> 00:38:25,170
And again, like you said, coming
back to stakeholders, asking them the

835
00:38:25,170 --> 00:38:26,520
questions, what is it you want out of it?

836
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:28,110
And another thing that I've found.

837
00:38:29,535 --> 00:38:32,955
It's a great source of trying to identify
what your new website should do is go

838
00:38:32,955 --> 00:38:35,685
through all your customer service emails
and see where the biggest complaints are.

839
00:38:36,795 --> 00:38:39,075
Um, where are the biggest problems
your customers are having?

840
00:38:39,075 --> 00:38:41,205
You know, what are the things that
they're constantly talking about?

841
00:38:41,745 --> 00:38:44,565
Uh, and, um, you can solve some
of them straight off the bat.

842
00:38:44,565 --> 00:38:45,495
They're always quick wins.

843
00:38:45,495 --> 00:38:48,435
As we like to say, always quick wins.

844
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,850
I'm uh, I've, I've started to understand
my business goals a little bit more.

845
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,549
I'm talking to my stakeholders.

846
00:38:56,700 --> 00:39:00,090
Um, everyone that needs to be involved
in this website, that from the

847
00:39:00,090 --> 00:39:01,950
marketing team for me is the owner.

848
00:39:02,700 --> 00:39:06,180
My suppliers possibly, you know,
my customers, what do they want?

849
00:39:06,660 --> 00:39:08,310
Um, and so on and so forth.

850
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:09,509
So I'm doing all of this sort of work.

851
00:39:09,509 --> 00:39:12,170
And then I I've, I've got that
and I'm, I'm coming to you and I'm

852
00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:16,049
just, I almost come to you sort of
slightly platform-agnostic yeah.

853
00:39:16,049 --> 00:39:17,250
That's my usual approach.

854
00:39:17,279 --> 00:39:18,660
I'm kind of like, this is my problem.

855
00:39:18,990 --> 00:39:20,130
You guys are the experts.

856
00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:22,859
What do you think is the best
solution rather than, I don't know

857
00:39:22,859 --> 00:39:23,670
if you've ever done this thing.

858
00:39:23,670 --> 00:39:25,230
I don't know if they do it
in the states and the UK.

859
00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:26,370
If you go see your doctor.

860
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,950
Um, you know, I've got this problem,
uh, doctor, uh, they don't sit there

861
00:39:31,950 --> 00:39:33,420
and go, well, I think it's this.

862
00:39:33,450 --> 00:39:35,130
And therefore you need to do this.

863
00:39:35,490 --> 00:39:38,880
The first question they always ask
you is, so what do you think it is?

864
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:41,160
Oh, no.

865
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,500
Yeah.

866
00:39:43,980 --> 00:39:44,250
Right.

867
00:39:44,460 --> 00:39:45,810
You've gone onto Google.

868
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:47,940
You I've got the problem.

869
00:39:48,029 --> 00:39:50,220
You know what it is, you know, the
solution and you've just come to

870
00:39:50,220 --> 00:39:52,680
the doctor for whatever, just to
validate your opinion, I suppose.

871
00:39:53,575 --> 00:39:54,775
Let's see how good you do your job.

872
00:39:54,805 --> 00:39:56,125
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

873
00:39:56,215 --> 00:39:57,355
It's the dangers of Google.

874
00:39:57,355 --> 00:39:57,535
Now.

875
00:39:57,535 --> 00:39:59,935
We all know everything
at least we think we do.

876
00:39:59,935 --> 00:40:02,935
So, um, I've come to you.

877
00:40:02,935 --> 00:40:05,335
Um, I'm probably slightly
platform agnostic.

878
00:40:05,785 --> 00:40:10,134
Um, what are some of the things that
maybe I should look at or look for in

879
00:40:10,134 --> 00:40:12,325
the early days of dealing with an agency?

880
00:40:12,595 --> 00:40:15,025
Uh, you know, I'm talking to you, what
are some of the things I need to look

881
00:40:15,235 --> 00:40:16,735
and think about before working with you?

882
00:40:16,975 --> 00:40:19,285
I don't, and I, I was gonna try
to carry the health analogy, but

883
00:40:19,345 --> 00:40:20,305
you know, we're the United States.

884
00:40:20,305 --> 00:40:22,015
So, you know, health is very much.

885
00:40:22,860 --> 00:40:23,760
Polarized subject here.

886
00:40:23,790 --> 00:40:24,090
So

887
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:29,730
I went, I went to my physician the
other day and they're like, you're

888
00:40:29,730 --> 00:40:32,250
only allowed to ask these three
questions in this coded thing.

889
00:40:32,250 --> 00:40:35,790
You know, like what, it's my
physical he's like, no, that's it.

890
00:40:35,790 --> 00:40:36,780
That goes beyond the other.

891
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:39,050
So, yeah.

892
00:40:39,050 --> 00:40:41,550
So I guess first things we're going
to go there with your agency and make

893
00:40:41,550 --> 00:40:44,190
sure they can actually answer the
questions that you want to ask them.

894
00:40:44,490 --> 00:40:51,375
Um, That's segway, but we're, uh, the
reality is there are some agencies

895
00:40:51,405 --> 00:40:54,105
that say they'll do anything and
everything, and it doesn't matter

896
00:40:54,105 --> 00:40:56,235
their size, but some of the smallest
agencies, you know, with four people

897
00:40:56,235 --> 00:40:57,585
on the team direct with everything.

898
00:40:57,585 --> 00:40:59,925
And then you've got the ones with
elderly people that are experts.

899
00:41:01,665 --> 00:41:03,795
I just think that when you're
getting into platforms and if you

900
00:41:03,795 --> 00:41:09,015
have any level of complexity, you
want an agency that has chosen a

901
00:41:09,015 --> 00:41:10,815
few things to get really good at it.

902
00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:14,550
And you have to vet that and
you're gonna have to, you know,

903
00:41:14,550 --> 00:41:15,270
how are we going to do that?

904
00:41:15,270 --> 00:41:17,760
Whether it's okay talking
to clients past clients?

905
00:41:17,940 --> 00:41:18,420
I think, I don't know.

906
00:41:18,690 --> 00:41:21,090
I think talking to current clients
and past clients is some of the best

907
00:41:21,090 --> 00:41:23,310
things you can do, because they're
going to tell you the good, bad,

908
00:41:23,310 --> 00:41:24,480
and so many people don't do it.

909
00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:25,820
I know they never do.

910
00:41:26,775 --> 00:41:29,085
I was telling you, I'm like,
you give me references.

911
00:41:29,095 --> 00:41:32,595
I'm like, well, look, I'm not going
to, I hate if everybody, if I gave,

912
00:41:33,015 --> 00:41:35,295
you know, if I gave a reference every
single time somebody asked me, I

913
00:41:35,295 --> 00:41:37,395
mean, my port clients would be, you
know, only on the phone all day long.

914
00:41:37,425 --> 00:41:37,605
Right.

915
00:41:37,605 --> 00:41:40,305
And so, but the fact is I'm like, look,
you can see who we have on our website.

916
00:41:40,545 --> 00:41:42,225
You can see who's worked
with us in the past.

917
00:41:42,405 --> 00:41:44,415
You could probably find somebody
that's complained about us somewhere.

918
00:41:44,445 --> 00:41:44,805
You know what I mean?

919
00:41:44,805 --> 00:41:48,315
Like, you know, but the fact is, and I
always tell people, when you talk to them,

920
00:41:48,435 --> 00:41:49,965
don't ask them what they love about us.

921
00:41:50,715 --> 00:41:52,035
You know, if they're still
our client, they love us.

922
00:41:52,035 --> 00:41:54,165
For some reason, I'm like ask
them when things go wrong.

923
00:41:54,730 --> 00:41:55,690
How it's been handled.

924
00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:56,980
How did I deal with that?

925
00:41:56,980 --> 00:41:59,410
How are you that, I mean, it's,
it's your basics, but nobody

926
00:41:59,410 --> 00:42:00,280
wants it because they want it.

927
00:42:00,310 --> 00:42:01,030
They want to feel good.

928
00:42:01,030 --> 00:42:01,180
Right.

929
00:42:01,180 --> 00:42:03,100
Everyone should feel good at the
beginning here, but I'm like, look,

930
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,080
we're an agency, you're a client.

931
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:06,880
Presumably, we're going to
do this for a lot of years.

932
00:42:07,090 --> 00:42:08,320
Something's going to go wrong somewhere.

933
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,420
I mean, that's just,
that's just in the cards.

934
00:42:10,420 --> 00:42:10,840
Okay.

935
00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:12,370
And you're going to hire new people.

936
00:42:12,370 --> 00:42:13,720
They're going to have no idea
what was promised before.

937
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:16,270
I'm going to put a new PM on,
at some point, you know, that

938
00:42:16,570 --> 00:42:17,740
something's going to get lost here.

939
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:20,460
How are we going to handle it?

940
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,879
And you want to know what our approach
is and if it fits with your organization.

941
00:42:24,299 --> 00:42:28,290
And so, um, because you can vet the
quality or you can, you can look at

942
00:42:28,290 --> 00:42:30,960
our team, you can, uh, hack, run,
shaping e-commerce on your plate, or

943
00:42:30,970 --> 00:42:34,020
you can be half our team on YouTube at
this point and see if you liked them.

944
00:42:34,020 --> 00:42:37,690
I mean, it's, you know, I mean, it was
a little plug, but you know, the, uh,

945
00:42:41,549 --> 00:42:45,870
and so, you know, the reality is I think
that, uh, I think that you've got to

946
00:42:45,870 --> 00:42:47,850
figure out is this going to be a good fit?

947
00:42:48,359 --> 00:42:49,200
We have our basics.

948
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,020
I mean, you know, there's, we have clients
that have come to us and said, you know,

949
00:42:52,109 --> 00:42:54,359
we want you to work on Friday nights.

950
00:42:54,390 --> 00:42:58,859
That's when we want things done and
deployed and for whatever reasons.

951
00:42:58,919 --> 00:43:01,560
And we're like, guys, we don't deploy
on Fridays because I'm not going to,

952
00:43:01,859 --> 00:43:04,470
if there's an emergency, we're not
going to be here for you on Saturday

953
00:43:04,470 --> 00:43:05,470
and well, I mean, we have emergencies.

954
00:43:06,405 --> 00:43:10,845
For true emergencies, us creating
this potential emergency on purpose.

955
00:43:11,145 --> 00:43:11,805
We're not going to do it.

956
00:43:12,165 --> 00:43:15,705
And we had a, you know, we had to walk
away from really great relationships, uh,

957
00:43:15,705 --> 00:43:18,915
nicely, but you know, we're, we're not
going down this path with you anymore.

958
00:43:18,915 --> 00:43:22,845
We're not because our teams are not
going to be here on Saturday, unless it's

959
00:43:22,875 --> 00:43:27,005
truly an emergency of our making, uh, or
you're making, but you know, is truly.

960
00:43:28,110 --> 00:43:31,500
And so those kinds of relationship,
things, code ownership, and

961
00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,210
version controls and security.

962
00:43:33,870 --> 00:43:35,279
These are sacrosanct for us.

963
00:43:35,370 --> 00:43:38,940
Uh, and if clients are not,
if that doesn't fit with their

964
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,100
sort of corporate culture yeah.

965
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:41,850
That may not be a good fit.

966
00:43:41,850 --> 00:43:44,160
So you're looking for
those basics as well.

967
00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:46,560
And, but we usually ferret
that out early in a call.

968
00:43:48,665 --> 00:43:52,265
I think you want to see how, I mean,
this is probably not a great way to put

969
00:43:52,265 --> 00:43:53,585
it, but how desperate is the agency?

970
00:43:53,615 --> 00:43:56,915
You know, if they're living in dying and
getting your stuff, it means they may,

971
00:43:56,975 --> 00:43:58,505
you gotta be careful not over promising.

972
00:43:59,225 --> 00:44:01,445
Um, and this is a big thing.

973
00:44:01,475 --> 00:44:03,395
I mean, it's with the
best of intentions, right.

974
00:44:03,755 --> 00:44:06,035
But you don't want to be there.

975
00:44:07,815 --> 00:44:10,335
Scale, everything else is all comes
into this equation, but in general,

976
00:44:10,335 --> 00:44:13,005
you don't wanna be their only client
or their most important client.

977
00:44:13,065 --> 00:44:16,935
Um, because then there's too much
risk and they're going to, uh,

978
00:44:17,355 --> 00:44:19,365
I think you've got too much risk
going into that relationship.

979
00:44:19,455 --> 00:44:23,955
So yeah, you have, and I, and I think
I've also come across something you

980
00:44:23,955 --> 00:44:25,485
just said that triggered it in my head.

981
00:44:25,485 --> 00:44:26,145
I've come across this.

982
00:44:27,029 --> 00:44:30,089
You know, agencies over promised and
they, they feel like they've got to work

983
00:44:30,089 --> 00:44:32,009
on this project, all these crazy hours.

984
00:44:32,370 --> 00:44:35,580
And so you become their least favorite
client and you never want to be

985
00:44:35,580 --> 00:44:37,170
your agency's least favorite client.

986
00:44:37,980 --> 00:44:40,919
You want to be your agency's
favorite client, because that's

987
00:44:40,919 --> 00:44:44,220
when sort of mean you, you want
to pay your bills ahead of time.

988
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,490
You want to send everyone in the
office gifts at Christmas, and you

989
00:44:47,490 --> 00:44:50,609
want to do this because you want, when
you call up, you want the guys to be

990
00:44:50,609 --> 00:44:53,819
happy to be talking to you and just
going out of their way to help you.

991
00:44:54,029 --> 00:44:56,370
Because agencies, at the end of
the day, they met up for people.

992
00:44:57,180 --> 00:45:01,799
And so we we've got to get the best out of
them and treating them like nice humans.

993
00:45:02,405 --> 00:45:06,155
Is, uh, is a good way to, to not
be at the bottom of the list.

994
00:45:06,155 --> 00:45:06,305
Right?

995
00:45:06,335 --> 00:45:09,665
It seems so basic, but you, you,
I had this call with this owner

996
00:45:09,665 --> 00:45:13,025
the other day, say the industry, I
tend to deal with a lot of owners.

997
00:45:13,025 --> 00:45:15,455
I mean, I think because I think
companies that are not, you know,

998
00:45:15,455 --> 00:45:17,705
that have been established and it's
not driven by their owner anymore.

999
00:45:17,915 --> 00:45:20,015
They've got some systems in
place and, you know, you tend to

1000
00:45:20,015 --> 00:45:22,745
have less of these issues, more
capital issues, capital expense.

1001
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:25,850
And this owner, he was just blow.

1002
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,570
He, every interaction with RPM
who is so dedicated to this

1003
00:45:29,570 --> 00:45:34,160
company, which is horrible, he
would just blow up a yell, scream.

1004
00:45:34,430 --> 00:45:35,600
His team was afraid of him.

1005
00:45:35,930 --> 00:45:38,150
And, and so I wrote him an
email, very diplomatically,

1006
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:39,320
but essentially firing him.

1007
00:45:39,650 --> 00:45:43,640
And I said, but call me if you've
got any questions as we call me.

1008
00:45:44,805 --> 00:45:45,765
Did you just fire me?

1009
00:45:48,165 --> 00:45:49,785
Well, yeah, I think so.

1010
00:45:49,785 --> 00:45:50,235
I mean, yeah.

1011
00:45:50,745 --> 00:45:52,635
You know, barring a major 180 here.

1012
00:45:52,635 --> 00:45:54,315
I said, you know, we'll help you out.

1013
00:45:54,315 --> 00:45:54,855
We'll wrap it up.

1014
00:45:54,855 --> 00:45:55,665
We're not gonna just drop it.

1015
00:45:55,665 --> 00:45:58,485
You, I mean, I care about your business
and then I care about your team.

1016
00:45:58,845 --> 00:46:01,765
Uh, and he goes, but you
know, you can't do that.

1017
00:46:01,765 --> 00:46:03,315
And I said, well, I don't
make a habit of this.

1018
00:46:03,315 --> 00:46:06,435
I mean, I wouldn't have an agency
if my day, so I say you don't

1019
00:46:06,435 --> 00:46:08,265
want, but it basically boils
down to what you just said.

1020
00:46:08,265 --> 00:46:10,515
And I said to him, look,
you, you want my team?

1021
00:46:11,405 --> 00:46:15,475
To be thinking about your project to
be excited when your email comes in

1022
00:46:15,475 --> 00:46:20,315
in the morning, if, when they log in
and there's an email from you and they

1023
00:46:20,345 --> 00:46:24,005
cringe, I said, you're just not going
to get the best out of that person.

1024
00:46:24,515 --> 00:46:25,955
I said, they're going to
log their time officially.

1025
00:46:25,955 --> 00:46:26,855
They're going to track it.

1026
00:46:26,855 --> 00:46:29,465
They're going to mean, you
know, w w we're going to honor

1027
00:46:29,465 --> 00:46:30,935
our contractual obligations.

1028
00:46:31,295 --> 00:46:32,945
It's a, but you want 110%.

1029
00:46:33,155 --> 00:46:35,405
You want them, when they're at lunch,
sort of thinking about how do we

1030
00:46:35,405 --> 00:46:40,095
solve that thing for that guy, you
know, You want the, that factor in

1031
00:46:40,095 --> 00:46:42,585
there and, you know, and that's great.

1032
00:46:42,645 --> 00:46:45,195
And he sort of understood and
then was good for four weeks and

1033
00:46:45,435 --> 00:46:49,215
we sort of have a touch before
we just go from agency to agency.

1034
00:46:49,485 --> 00:46:51,945
And that's what if they're breathing
effectually, you go, you know what?

1035
00:46:51,945 --> 00:46:53,115
We don't want your business anymore.

1036
00:46:53,535 --> 00:46:56,295
And that's maybe a question you need
to ask your agency as well, to give

1037
00:46:56,295 --> 00:46:59,715
me a list of clients you've sacked
because any agency that's not done that.

1038
00:47:01,045 --> 00:47:01,945
I don't know.

1039
00:47:01,975 --> 00:47:05,095
I don't know if I'd be that confident
to work with them, but that's just me.

1040
00:47:05,095 --> 00:47:05,575
You know what I mean?

1041
00:47:05,625 --> 00:47:07,404
I think that it's a two way street.

1042
00:47:07,404 --> 00:47:09,225
Can I, I do think.

1043
00:47:10,035 --> 00:47:12,465
It takes a brave business owner to go.

1044
00:47:12,465 --> 00:47:13,515
This is not working.

1045
00:47:13,545 --> 00:47:17,265
I'm going to turn down a company culture.

1046
00:47:17,385 --> 00:47:23,115
I think it's really hard, but I think
fundamentally you, you, there are clients

1047
00:47:23,115 --> 00:47:25,875
along the way for whatever reason,
and it's not because people are just,

1048
00:47:25,905 --> 00:47:28,365
for whatever reason, it just doesn't
work out between you and the client.

1049
00:47:28,425 --> 00:47:28,605
Right.

1050
00:47:29,495 --> 00:47:31,715
Having the strength to call it
a day and go, you know what?

1051
00:47:31,715 --> 00:47:32,345
This is great.

1052
00:47:32,375 --> 00:47:33,095
We'll help you out.

1053
00:47:33,095 --> 00:47:37,085
But I think beyond this with w where
quarterly agreement a right fit anymore,

1054
00:47:37,685 --> 00:47:39,785
and that enables your agency to flourish.

1055
00:47:39,815 --> 00:47:42,154
So if I'm coming to your agency,
I want to know those kinds of

1056
00:47:42,154 --> 00:47:45,305
stories, but that's just me, you
know, I just, I kind of, yeah, this,

1057
00:47:45,315 --> 00:47:47,765
these guys are really protected for
their culture, which is quite nice.

1058
00:47:47,765 --> 00:47:48,634
And I think I can fit in.

1059
00:47:49,815 --> 00:47:52,725
So that, but you know, others
that don't appreciate that we're

1060
00:47:52,725 --> 00:47:53,685
probably not a good fit for them.

1061
00:47:53,835 --> 00:47:54,315
Right.

1062
00:47:54,375 --> 00:47:57,465
And they want to be able to, you know,
they want to be able to know that I'm

1063
00:47:57,465 --> 00:48:01,455
riding my team on Friday and Saturdays
and you know, and they want to know that

1064
00:48:01,455 --> 00:48:03,405
they can know that because that's what
they have in their corporate culture.

1065
00:48:03,735 --> 00:48:04,305
And that's what we'll say.

1066
00:48:04,695 --> 00:48:06,015
We're probably not a fit.

1067
00:48:06,105 --> 00:48:06,735
Uh, yeah.

1068
00:48:07,904 --> 00:48:08,715
Yeah, that's fine.

1069
00:48:08,745 --> 00:48:08,924
Yeah.

1070
00:48:08,955 --> 00:48:11,445
We work really well with people
that don't want to work on a Sunday.

1071
00:48:11,565 --> 00:48:13,455
They just want to be at home with
a family because that's where

1072
00:48:13,455 --> 00:48:15,165
everybody else is in our company.

1073
00:48:15,404 --> 00:48:16,455
They're at home with the family.

1074
00:48:16,455 --> 00:48:16,805
Right.

1075
00:48:16,815 --> 00:48:21,375
And so, uh, we quite that less
than Robin, I am aware of time and

1076
00:48:21,404 --> 00:48:24,134
I feel like we're just honestly
scratching the surface of this.

1077
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:26,305
Cause there's so many, there's so
many more directions we can go.

1078
00:48:26,775 --> 00:48:29,535
What happens if it's not working
with the agency and germane

1079
00:48:29,535 --> 00:48:30,645
all those kinds of things.

1080
00:48:31,095 --> 00:48:34,904
Um, and, uh, it may be that we need
to do a sort of a part two of this

1081
00:48:34,904 --> 00:48:36,315
conversation at some point, but.

1082
00:48:37,590 --> 00:48:43,140
I think for every body out there that
is in some e-commerce and business,

1083
00:48:43,140 --> 00:48:45,540
whether you're an owner, whether you're
a startup, whether you're established or

1084
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:48,990
what working with an agency is going to
be something you're going to have to do at

1085
00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:50,640
some point, if you want to scale and grow.

1086
00:48:51,330 --> 00:48:56,550
And so do listen to what Robert has
said about understanding your business

1087
00:48:56,550 --> 00:48:57,840
goals, understanding the stakeholders.

1088
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:01,960
Talking to the agencies, understanding
their culture and seeing if it's a good

1089
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:03,550
for get your head around that process.

1090
00:49:03,550 --> 00:49:06,490
Can you live up to the agency's
expectations and what they need from

1091
00:49:06,490 --> 00:49:07,750
you and all that sort of good stuff.

1092
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:12,040
Um, Robert, if people are listening to
the show and they kind of think, I really

1093
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,710
want to reach out to this guy, what's the
best way for them to get ahold of you.

1094
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:18,160
Certainly LinkedIn, Robert
Giovannoni iron plane.

1095
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:19,570
I love the conversation.

1096
00:49:19,570 --> 00:49:21,040
If anybody ever wants
to talk to you, comma.

1097
00:49:22,035 --> 00:49:22,635
I enjoy it.

1098
00:49:22,695 --> 00:49:25,215
And then we have our shaping
e-commerce with airplane on YouTube

1099
00:49:25,215 --> 00:49:27,645
and podcasts, your favorite podcast
channels, which is also, you can

1100
00:49:27,645 --> 00:49:30,015
get to know our team a little bit
and hear the same kind of topics.

1101
00:49:31,169 --> 00:49:31,379
Yeah.

1102
00:49:31,410 --> 00:49:32,100
Fantastic.

1103
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:32,879
Yeah, absolutely.

1104
00:49:32,879 --> 00:49:33,810
Just subscribe to their show.

1105
00:49:33,810 --> 00:49:34,169
It's great.

1106
00:49:34,350 --> 00:49:36,960
And we will, of course put all
the links in the show notes.

1107
00:49:37,020 --> 00:49:40,620
Um, and you can get those if for whatever
reason you can't take them down now.

1108
00:49:41,009 --> 00:49:43,859
Uh, just head on over to the website,
e-commerce podcast.net search for

1109
00:49:43,859 --> 00:49:48,330
Roberts search for, I am plain and yet
the young fellow sat before me will

1110
00:49:48,330 --> 00:49:51,509
come up and you'll be able to connect
with him or we'll head all that.

1111
00:49:51,509 --> 00:49:51,960
So, yeah.

1112
00:49:52,299 --> 00:49:54,270
Robert, thank you so much for your time.

1113
00:49:54,270 --> 00:49:55,560
Thanks for the conversation.

1114
00:49:55,919 --> 00:49:58,859
Uh, it's always good to
connect to fellow woodwork.

1115
00:49:59,365 --> 00:50:04,404
Slash e-commerce as slash
just dudes where we are.

1116
00:50:04,435 --> 00:50:07,645
We are, we are, we should tell the queen,
we should get a medal or something.

1117
00:50:07,645 --> 00:50:10,944
I'm not quite sure believe so we must,
we must be in line for something.

1118
00:50:11,035 --> 00:50:11,515
I don't think so.

1119
00:50:13,105 --> 00:50:14,125
Dave, thank you so much.

1120
00:50:14,125 --> 00:50:14,665
It's been great.

1121
00:50:14,845 --> 00:50:15,234
Empty.

1122
00:50:16,785 --> 00:50:17,505
There you have it.

1123
00:50:17,595 --> 00:50:22,215
Another fantastic conversation
here on the e-commerce podcast.

1124
00:50:22,425 --> 00:50:22,845
Huge.

1125
00:50:22,875 --> 00:50:24,915
Thanks to Robert for joining me today.

1126
00:50:25,185 --> 00:50:25,875
Now don't forget.

1127
00:50:25,875 --> 00:50:29,205
You can check out our complete
back catalog online at our

1128
00:50:29,205 --> 00:50:30,915
newly revamped website.

1129
00:50:30,915 --> 00:50:33,405
Just head over to e-commerce podcast.net.

1130
00:50:33,885 --> 00:50:37,605
Don't forget to subscribe wherever
you get your podcasts from because we

1131
00:50:37,605 --> 00:50:41,585
have some great conversations lined
up and I don't want you to miss.

1132
00:50:42,115 --> 00:50:46,435
Any of them, stay in touch, let us know
how you're getting on writers, a review,

1133
00:50:46,465 --> 00:50:51,055
all of that good stuff, subscribe,
uh, because you know, it's awesome.

1134
00:50:51,055 --> 00:50:52,255
What was going on here on the show?

1135
00:50:52,285 --> 00:50:54,655
Even if I do say so myself, we
are proud of it in this great

1136
00:50:54,655 --> 00:50:55,675
that you're part of the journey.

1137
00:50:56,005 --> 00:50:59,455
So thanks for being with us
today and in case no one has told

1138
00:50:59,455 --> 00:51:03,595
you, you, my friend are awesome.