[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales. I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is the [00:00:30] Science of Motherhood.

[00:00:31] Dr Renee White: Hello and welcome to episode 178 of The Science of Motherhood. I am your host, Dr. Renee White. This episode is proudly supported by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village, where we provide support, food, and guidance, ensuring every Mother's Cup is full. Fill your cup exists because we believe in the transformative power of support [00:01:00] during one of life's most significant transitions. Welcoming a new child and becoming a mum, with more than 16 years in health and medical education, we truly understand how to replenish, restore, and support you in the thick of motherhood.

[00:01:18] Dr Renee White: Our Melbourne, Hobart, Sydney, Geelong, Brisbane, and Newcastle practices focus on evidence-based birth and postpartum support. [00:01:30] That is exclusively curated to your needs, and it is our promise here at Fill Your Cup that for every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself, ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered, so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood and confidence.

[00:01:51] Dr Renee White: If you are having a baby, thinking of having a baby, or you know someone who is pregnant and looking for that extra support [00:02:00] during birth or postpartum, feel free to have a look at our doula offerings on the website. I fill your cup.com or join us over on Instagram at Fill your Cup underscore alright, let's dive into today's episode.

[00:02:19] Dr Renee White: Today's guest is Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks. She is the founder and CEO of Ovum AI and if you [00:02:30] have been hiding under a rock and not heard anything about this, sit tight. Honestly, I maybe, 'cause I'm hanging out on LinkedIn and I have a bit of a business focus as well, but Ariella is all over the news and rightly so. She has been generating a ton of media and shaking up the women's health industry and for all good cause [00:03:00] now, Ariella she was. Her background is like science law, and then she decided that women's health was really like her jam, and so she kind of flicked over to medicine and started to follow that path.

[00:03:17] Dr Renee White: And like all amazing entrepreneurs, something happens in your personal life. I feel like there's always, there's always that pivotal moment where you kind of [00:03:30] go to yourself, hold on a minute. This is not cool. There is a gap, and you know what? I'm gonna fill it and that is exactly what she's creating with Ovum. So Ovum is the first personal health assistant powered by AI to support women, and it's very, very cool. Just launched last month, [00:04:00] it is an online platform where you can chat to Ovum about your history, about what you're feeling, about what's going on with you at the moment. You can input your medical records, you can input, um, all your biometrics through you know, your Fitbit and your Apple iWatch and your Aura rings and things like that. And essentially what it's gonna be is this [00:04:30] amazing user friendly interface. With comprehensive health monitoring, you're gonna be able to have access to professional advice. We talk about, and this is, oh, one of those things where like anyone can make an app, right?

[00:04:45] Dr Renee White: Not anyone, but generally anyone can make an app. You will hear in this interview how thoughtful she has been with the production of this piece of technology. They've [00:05:00] thought about the language, they've thought about their audience, even to the point where, you know, there's a pay it forward method when it comes to the subscription model. So you know, it's a little bit more expensive if you wanna pay it forward for those women who might not be able to afford something like this on a monthly basis, like those are things that really set innovation [00:05:30] apart, and I absolutely love it. As I said, she, um, graduated she is full MD and now she is doing a PhD alongside building this empire, which is I can't wait to see what like this is chapter one. As I said earlier, this is chapter one. I cannot wait to see what this is actually gonna evolve into, which is absolutely amazing. So if you wanna head over to Ovum [00:06:00] forward slash ai.com.au or just type in Ovum AI into Google, you will be able to head over to their website and you'll be able to get access to their app.

[00:06:13] Dr Renee White: Which is gonna be just amazing. Alright, cannot wait for you to listen to this episode. It is going to absolutely shake up. The industry here is Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks. [00:06:30] Hello and welcome to the podcast, Ariella from Ovum. How are you?

[00:06:35] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: I'm good. I'm good. How are you?

[00:06:37] Dr Renee White: I am very good. The sun is shining here in Hobart, which is fantastic. I feel like we are kind of getting our second wind of summer, which is always good. Uh, 'cause it's notoriously freezing here.

[00:06:49] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah. No, I've never been to Hobart. Always wanted to. Yeah. I haven't been.

[00:06:54] Dr Renee White: You must you must get on the plane. It's not that far. I, I'm a Melbourne girl [00:07:00] you know through and through.

[00:07:00] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yes.

[00:07:01] Dr Renee White: But, um, yeah, making the, uh, jump over the ditch was a very good call for us. But, um, yes, we have got you on the podcast today to talk about your amazing technology Ovum.

[00:07:15] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Thank you.

[00:07:16] Dr Renee White: Uh, which I have kind of been following in the media. I feel like every time, like you cannot swing a cat Ariella and not hit you or Ovum square in the face. I'm just like this woman is everywhere [00:07:30] because you have generated, I think, a lot of interest, you know, within the tech field, within VC field, within, you know, women's health field coming at it from all angles. I always like to start these chats because your career has kind of evolved a little bit. Can you please let the listeners know how this all started. What was your background, uh, and how did you get to where you are [00:08:00] today?

[00:08:00] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yes. I love that you used the word evolve because that's it. It really has. And I, and I can't say that like when you know, you're at school and you're asked like, what are you gonna do when you're older? One, it wasn't medicine. Yeah, true. It wasn't being an entrepreneur. So really has evolved. Um, and I think it's just through like listening to myself and listening to my intuition, and what I was passionate about. And I think that's like, that can be applied to anyone in any career. But I guess taking, taking it way, way back, I [00:08:30] did law science and I focused in reproductive biology.

[00:08:33] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And that's what allowed me to really fall in love with women, women's health and just like what women were able to do. I mean, you study embryology and you learn every cellular bit of formation of a human. And it's just incredible and so I was like, Hey, I wanna do medicine. I wanna do women's health. I want to do obstetrics and gynecology. So I sat down that few times, eventually got in and then I did post-grad, uh, medicine at Macquarie University in Sydney. So I made the move over [00:09:00] there and it was during my third year of medical school. So it was during COVID at this time. Mm-hmm. So we were meant to go overseas, but we actually stayed in Australia and instead went to all different states.

[00:09:11] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And so I was really between Queensland, New South Wales, Victoria in regional, remote and metropolitan hospitals. Um, there's like ward based settings. ED primary care obviously had a big focus on doing a lot of obstetrics and gyne and anything really women's health. And what I saw during this time was that women were completely disempowered [00:09:30] with their healthcare, regardless of socioeconomic status. So it didn't matter if you were. In a really remote area, in an ED setting, or I was sitting in a primary care setting and really, you know, metro, like high socioeconomic area, women were just not able to really advocate for themselves or given the space to mm-hmm. Or know or knew how to, and the system really wasn't addressing also the fact that women's health was so integrated and cyclical, in fact, really siloed our healthcare.

[00:09:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:09:58] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Which meant I [00:10:00] saw that, our outcomes are really poor. Our diagnostic times are taking so long. And then I also heard about this longitudinal data gap, which is that women have not been equally opposite in trials for decades. And I think that's like the most common issue that people know about when it comes to women's health. This is impacting even how doctors are being trained, right? We, we don't have a good understanding of how to diagnose and treat a woman beyond learning it in the setting of pregnancy and fertility and like that is so important. But when we think of women's health when being taught at medical school, it's uh, [00:10:30] it's not thinking about all the other conditions that women disproportionately suffer from, like migraine, which I personally suffer from autoimmune conditions, musculoskeletal.

[00:10:37] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So anyway, saw all these issues, really saw firsthand, numerous case examples and I thought, why do we have this blue book in New South Wales? It's a blue book, I think it's a different color in Victoria or Tasmania that tracks children's health.

[00:10:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:10:51] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: In this book. Why? Why women are so complex and so like we need to have a longitudinal understanding of our health, so why don't we do this for women? And it was literally, [00:11:00] I remember driving and this like light bulb moment.

[00:11:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:11:03] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And then it was fundamentally from there that I thought, I wanna create something this before ai. Okay. Something that integrates women's health data longitudinally, empowers them through health literacy and then feeds that back into research and that hasn't changed. AI's come into it because tech helps. It hasn't changed, and then it was a course of finishing medical school. I did internship at Prince of Wales and at the same time built the company, did a lot of, um, accelerators, did a commercialisation program through the New South [00:11:30] Wales government, got some initial investment, prototype MVP tested, spoke to 350 women, tested the product.

[00:11:37] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Tested what kind of research we could get out of it. Um, and really now it's evolved to raising the Prese round and now building the commercial version and doing my PhD, which is looking at how we can use AI to engage women in preventative health. Mm-hmm. Really testing over them in a clinical set setting so we can clinically validate the tool. That's a very quick run through, so I'm happy to delve into part of that journey.

[00:11:59] Dr Renee White: I think, you [00:12:00] know, you've, you've hit the nail on the head. Like one of the most common comments, whether it be face-to-face or I get dms or you know, emails from people when they listen to this podcast is obviously it's the science of motherhood and whilst we're focusing on motherhood, we do talk about women's health generally. Mm-hmm. And the number one thing that people ask me, 'cause you know, I was in medical research and they're like, why is there not more stuff on women's research, and I'm just [00:12:30] like, because we are complex creatures, apparently.

[00:12:31] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. That's in the too hard basket and we all get thrown in over there, which is just absolutely like crazy because as you say, and I think I, I was, I saw something the other day. I think it was Gabor Maté was saying that 80% of autoimmune diseases are found in women and like, it's just like, mm-hmm. What the heck? Why do, why don't we know that? Like, why, why aren't we doing more about that? And the [00:13:00] thing that I really love about your concept. And we're gonna deep dive into it a little bit further is, as you've kind of highlighted, it's that longitudinal data and also the fact that um, you need it to be holistic as well.

[00:13:13] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Exactly.

[00:13:14] Dr Renee White: Like you need to be, have it coming from lots and lots of angles. What was like, you spoke about like that light bulb moment, that car ride, you know, where you were like, okay, hold on a minute. There's something, a lot, I see a lot of [00:13:30] people with a lot of good ideas. What was the tipping point for you when you were like, actually, you know what, I'm doing this like I am, I'm a hundred percent all in on this, and then I'd love to know at what point were you like, I need to bring AI into this?

[00:13:48] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Good questions. I think that the minute I had the idea, I, I, you know, was it a hundred percent it was. I really think this is what I'm gonna [00:14:00] do. It was weird. It was, um, I have to say, I'm like, I'm quite a, is spiritual the right word? Or quite like, I've used the word intuitive and there was like this gut feel of like, I've had this idea is like, this is, I don't know why, but I'm, this is going to be what I do.

[00:14:15] Dr Renee White: Okay. Yeah.

[00:14:15] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Then, yeah, so that was like the initial mm-hmm driver right. So I started going and speaking to like organisations that focused on fem tech to understand my market. I started missing a few tutorials to go to these Commercial Nation courses and my and my friend's like, what are [00:14:30] you doing? You're like trying to be a doctor. I'm like, I'm telling you, this is like really a really interesting and like hearing what other people are doing and like people are creating in the healthcare space and I wanna be part of that. And then I guess along the way, like obviously wanted to, um, do internship to really be in the hospital, have that experience because I really did love being in the hospital.

[00:14:49] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: I love patient interaction. I honestly like, love the clinical side of medicine. Um, that wasn't like something I didn't like, but what I found is I realised that I could make a bigger [00:15:00] difference by creating this. I could help millions of women rather than maybe a few hundred. Mm-hmm. And I think the more I delved into speaking to maybe other doctors in like maybe their level of happiness in like their career trajectories and things like that. I was really evaluating. I, I really did, um, look at like my life. I wanted a life where I could be creative, I could have flexibility. I wanna be a mum, I wanna be able to have days where I can like, work at home and like look after my kids and like run my company. And I love leading and, [00:15:30] and teaching people and I felt like I just couldn't grow as quickly and, and also live the life I wanted in the hospital.

[00:15:36] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:15:37] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Um, and so at the same time though, I was, as I said, speaking to hundreds of women, and the more I delved into the research, I was like, oh my God. Like this is like even worse than I think I even realised. And at this point, like a lot of the, um, McKinsey Gender Health Gap report hadn't come out. Mm-hmm. I'm not sure if you've heard or seen of that report. Basically saying that, um, the gap is costing a global [00:16:00] economy $1 trillion annually because women are spending 25% more time out there in their whole life, in poor health compared to men.

[00:16:06] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Mm-hmm. And then therefore not going to work as much or earlier time, and therefore we're impacting the economy because we are over half the global population. Mm-hmm. Just to remind everyone. No, just two. Remind new one just a little At home. Yeah. At home we really significant and yeah, I think it was the more I, I like, I spoke to him like we did focus groups, a mixture of surveys across women from 18 to 75 [00:16:30] and we segmented based on like what their health needs were and then also like what their sentiments towards the healthcare system was.

[00:16:35] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And it was as a young female doctor who obviously I've had my own health experiences, but hearing what we women were experiencing was like, this is shocking and I just can't leave this. And I really enjoyed it at the same time and I just felt, I think again, it came back to that feeling like, I believe I'm the person to do this. Yeah. I just think I, and everything was aligning, like I did get the investment pretty early from some incredible, really supportive [00:17:00] investors. I had a team, you know, Australian based company awarding tech and creatives who invest in me really early, who've supported me, is still working with us. And so I think, you know, it's one of those things, you also have a feeling, mm-hmm this is working and this is right and you should be doing this.

[00:17:16] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So there was that and then I guess coming to the AI question, it was probably I knew there was perform, uh, internship. It was probably like a year and a half into the company when I, I told you about Nakatomi, who were crazy enough to be like [00:17:30] without AI yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we'll try and do this and we're also gonna invest in you and we don't really invest in companies, but we're going to invest in you. Mm-hmm. That was like game changing because I had a group of people not only believe in me, but also actually have the, the skillset to build what I needed. Yeah. And then I think AI, just like, you know, Chat GPT had just come out and they said, listen, not sure if you thought about this, but would you use AI?

[00:17:56] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And to be honest, initially I was like quite skeptical. I was like [00:18:00] in the healthcare system. Yeah. Everyone hated AI. Yeah. And I was like, I'm a bit skeptical, but I also see how this could be unbelievable from my research hat on. I was like, wait, we could collect mass data mm-hmm in a really rapid and effective way and detect patterns, which we know is what AI's really good at.

[00:18:15] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:16] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: As long as we do it safely and we respect privacy. Like they had very key kind of lines in the sand about, you know, what I wanted for the company. Mm-hmm. And yeah, I think at that point I go, you know, again, I came back to my gut and I don't, you know, I know it can [00:18:30] sound a bit like, woo woo-y sometimes, but it's genuine.

[00:18:32] Dr Renee White: No, I, I agree with you. Yeah. When I've made all of my kind of big career decisions, like people have said to me like, what was it? And I was like, there's no pivotal moment. There was just a feeling.

[00:18:43] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah, exactly. And I just said, you know what, this is what we're doing and this is what I'm doing. And I, and I don't, I haven't looked back even for one second said, I think I made the wrong decision.

[00:18:54] Dr Renee White: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's, that's awesome story. Okay, let's dive into, 'cause we keep talking [00:19:00] about Ovum, we keep talking about what this amazing product is. What is it like give us your, I, I'd love to know what your like elevator pitch is for it and essentially. What do you envisage it providing women?

[00:19:16] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So Ovum is the first holistic AI health assistant for women. So her personal health ally in her pocket whenever she needs it, allows you to integrate medical reports, cycle tracking, biometric data off any wearable device. That could be your [00:19:30] Apple Watch uh, it could be your Oura ring, allows you to integrate medications, appointments, talk to Ovum using written word, um, but also speech to track and understand, uh, your symptoms and your health. And what Ovum does is it collects all of that individual data and creates a longitudinal memory of your health so that you can understand yourself better, therefore, advocate for yourself in clinical appointments.

[00:19:51] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And therefore we know, lead to more engagement in healthier behaviors and better health outcomes for women. But at a population level, what we're doing is collecting [00:20:00] the largest women's health, uh, longitudinal AI data set to feed back into research to address the gender bias in research, but also AI. And so our mission is to transform every woman's experience of healthcare and to begin to close the gender health gap, which we know is costing our global economy $1 trillion annually.

[00:20:17] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Hmm. So that's our quick little book. Um, hopefully, I mean, sometimes if I'm talking to in more depth, I like go through a case example of how someone might use it, which I'm happy to do. I guess I can explain [00:20:30] it in, in like,

[00:20:30] Dr Renee White: I'd love to know because I feel like I've had, I've had a, a personal experience with a healthcare here in Tassie, which has been quite enlightening, shall I say. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So I would, I would like, I look at stuff like this and go, this has potential to really shake up the industry, but also I think is, um, quite an empowering product as well, so I would love a case example.

[00:20:58] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah, so I [00:21:00] think of empowering is definitely like the ethos, right? Like it's empowerment through health literacy. So having the information gives you the ability to have autonomy and control of your health data and that was a sentiment like from our beta with the 150 women. Mm-hmm. Um, we really had, and this is just a beta version mm-hmm. Sentiment was this is everything I needed to track and understand my, my health data. I feel empowered, I feel like I can make decisions and not being, having decisions like almost forced on me or for example, [00:21:30] situations where I'm being gaslit and I know I'm being gaslit, but I don't have the information to say. Actually you're wrong. Yeah, and, and I've had case examples where that's happened using our beta.

[00:21:40] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So when I describe it through a case example, we take 45-year-old Isabel who's going through perimenopause, often she's experiencing a lot of really individualised symptoms. She's seeing various different doctors usually getting no answers, having numerous tests, probably still not getting any answers, and then trying to instigate all these lifestyle changes 'cause she knows that [00:22:00] like this is like a symbol of potentially other chronic disease, like heart disease, but finding it really overwhelming so she can download Ovum, sorry, got my phone and she can download Ovum and is met with this really compassionate and personalised onboarding experience.

[00:22:15] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So Ovum is getting to know her. Her health history, she feels listened to and heard more so than she would in any other doctor's appointment. Mm-hmm. And what Ovum is doing is already gathering this health history to create more personalised experience [00:22:30] for Isabelle. At the same time, she can integrate any Apple Health data. She can actually import any previous cycle tracking data, so she doesn't need to start from scratch and then she'll obviously start recording with Ovum and she'll go through with face id because we're prioritising safety and privacy, uh, and cybersecurity. So that's, you know, we're going to be SOC 2 and, and JDV are compliant, which is, you know, national and global standards. So she can feel safe when she's inputting all of this data and again, minimising personal identifying information. So we're trying to [00:23:00] minimise any kind of identify identity for any user.

[00:23:04] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:05] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And then when she logs in, she really starts from day one of her health journey and Ovum will track that. It will tell her this is day one because this is a longitudinal health experience and at this point Ovum will guide her through all the various features because there's obviously a lot of things you can do and there's a lot of different use cases. Mm-hmm. So it may be that she wants to upload a medication so she can take a photo of a medication or she can enter that in with written word. She may want to discuss a [00:23:30] symptom or she may even wanna start track tracking a cycle. Mm-hmm. Which is through a calendar view or all through chat and what Ovum does is then collects these as insights, which she can review to ensure that they're all accurate, because they wanna make sure that all the health data being recorded by Ovum is accurate.

[00:23:45] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:46] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And these will be represented in seven key aspects for health. So when she's speaking to Ovum, Ovum will record seven categories of her health, which are represented in seven colors and these colors will be displayed in different ways, which you'll see in our commercial release. [00:24:00] You'll actually be able to see them growing and changing as your health journey changes and grows, whether that's your longitudinal health. So there'll be a page where you can scroll back in time and see any day at any point, and look at your health and actually talk to Ovum about that day. Or you have your current overview page, which will show you health goals that you're tracking. So that could be integrated with, you know, your health data.

[00:24:21] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Which you've asked Ovum to set for you, your cycle tracking, your monitoring, anything Ovum monitoring for you. So always intuitively check in with you [00:24:30] about something that you've been discussing. It could be an appointment, it could be a new medication, it could be your latest goal to run 10 Ks a week.

[00:24:38] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:39] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Um, Ovum is there as your health assistant and so that's just like a very brief kind of insight into what it can do. Obviously we haven't released this demo version to anyone yet, so Yeah. Anyone's listening, please sign up for early access. I will also note we have now pregnancy mode. Obviously not necessarily relevant to Isabel in this case example, but now with Ovum you can actually from, you know. Not [00:25:00] wanting to get pregnant, to wanting to get pregnant and even getting pregnant after pregnancy Ovum used daily the whole time. So you can actually switch into a pregnancy mode out of a pregnancy mode and over more contextualise that you're in your postnatal period. Mm-hmm. It will remember that. And so when it's giving you answers, giving you responses, it's all personalised to your health journey.

[00:25:18] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So your health journey is very different to mine. I actually didn't add, you can also ask Ovum to create doctor's reports that Isabel, for example, may have talked about all of these different things to do with [00:25:30] perimenopause that she's experiencing. She can ask Ovum to generate a report in a PDF, which Ovum can create for you to send to your doctor beforehand or any allied health so that you feel that in that 10 minutes you are actually getting out of that appointment what you, what you paid for.

[00:25:44] Dr Renee White: My goodness, that's, that sounds amazing. Okay. I have a couple of questions from that where like, obviously people are probably thinking, where's this data coming from? How is Ovum able to, [00:26:00] you know, provide us with these insights and, and you know, all of that kind of stuff.

[00:26:06] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So there's a few kind of aspects to it, right? So there's like the user, so, uh, Ovum has a contextual memory of your health. So I talked through that onboarding experience and uploading medical reports. Everything that you put into Ovum will enhance your experience, right? Yeah. Because it's creating this memory of you and what you need and how, and how you want to interact with Ovum, so that's why I kind of come back to is it's [00:26:30] really unique how each person will use it. But then if you look at kind of like, you know, our backend without getting too techy, we've obviously done trials with quite a few women. We've spoken to a lot of women. We have data on quite a bit of women across a broad age group, and that will only grow. So the more women that use it, the better the AI gets right. So collecting that data set that, unfortunately we don't have, it's a bit of a chicken or the egg problem. Yeah. Um, and we know that women from a lot of our studies, um, as long as they're anonymous, like it was from 300, no, only the first one was 150 women in [00:27:00] the survey and 96% said they'd be happy to share their, um, data for research as long as they were anonymous because women wanna help women.

[00:27:07] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yep. Um, and that's what we've really found and then on top of that, we are creating a knowledge library. We call it retrieval augmented generation and it's a way of reducing hallucinations and bias in AI. So that's being created from at the moment, the Australian guidelines that are, you know, very women's, you know, women focused and obviously at the same time is, I'm actually speaking to Ovum every single day, training it [00:27:30] through different clinical situations, training it to be representative of women, and we also have women on the team who are doing that, or you know, we have men whose partners are doing that.

[00:27:37] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah. And so even what we found is without beta. Is we already hit the nail on the head in terms of tone, and that's actually a really important thing. Mm-hmm. Is that women felt it was accessible, professional, but not like a doctor. It was still empowering and all of that comes back to the language, which we've spent hours and months and months training Ovum to speak to so that women feel they [00:28:00] can ask the question they wouldn't maybe ask the I guess health provider. Mm-hmm. And so there's a, there's a, like, there's quite a few aspects to creating that's an AI that's representative of women, but you also don't have data like massive data sets. Um, which is where we hope we can come in and eventually create a data set that will also help other AI being more representative of women because AI's not just being used in healthcare.

[00:28:20] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: It's like employment. It's biased, so like it's, you know, that's like an important industry that, you know, hopefully data that's more specific could help.

[00:28:29] Dr Renee White: [00:28:30] Yeah, I love that. I love the fact that you've, you're so consciously aware of, of the language and it's something, you know, with the work that we do as, as doulas is, you know, we're very, very mindful of the language that we use, particularly when women are very, very fragile in that postpartum period. And I love the fact that, that you'll, that you've thought about that whole gaslighting aspect and also there's [00:29:00] something that happens and I was telling someone the other day about this, I'm quite an extroverted person.

[00:29:06] Dr Renee White: I can clearly have like a conversation quite readily. But something like switched in my brain after I had a baby, and there was many, many moments in those first six weeks when I was dealing with health professionals and they were talking at me, and there is no way I would [00:29:30] let them speak to me like that in everyday life. And I remember there was like this one incident and we ended up, my husband was like with me at the time and we walked out and he just like looked at me and he was like, what the hell just happened then? You know and he was like, I. Why didn't you tell them to like, just stop? 'cause they kept talking and my baby, I was trying to feed my baby and she was screaming 'cause I wasn't organised with like other things.

[00:29:56] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm. And I like, I just did that kind of like [00:30:00] that just, you know, that fight or flight and you just like, you just statue you still and you're like, oh my God, what is happening right now? And he was just so perplexed as to how that all eventuated. He was like, oh my God, I can't believe that just happened. That's so unlike you, and so it's really interesting that you've spoken about and thought about language and that you've thought about like that concept of being able to be armed with the information, so you're empowered in those consults. [00:30:30] I will share something with you if you're happy to indulge me. Yeah, and it's, it is such a reflection of the healthcare system and I. I know it's not great here in Tasmania and I don't wanna throw anyone under the bus, but this is just a highlight reel of like something I've had to endure quite recently leading up to my period I started to get these dizzy spells.

[00:30:53] Dr Renee White: And I thought, I'm 40 by the way, so like Yeah. You know, I'm thinking about perimenopause. I've got friends who are like kind of [00:31:00] going through it at the moment. Mm-hmm. Leading up to my period. I started to get these dizzy spells and I thought, this is really weird. I've never had this before and as I was kind of approaching my day for my period, which I do on a, on a track thing, 'cause I'm not on the pill. Yeah. And I was like, they started to like really intensify and I was like, this can't be a coincidence of like shifts in hormones approaching this particular day and these dizzy spells getting worse and worse. Anyways, cut a long story short, I [00:31:30] was like, that's it. I'm gonna go to the doctor's, I'm gonna get a blood test.

[00:31:32] Dr Renee White: The first thing that I wanna say is there was this huge roadblock with what tests I was quote unquote allowed to have. I'm about to say that, and I just, I was just like, are we really having this conversation right now? Like I could count on one hand how many times I've actually seen a GP in the last 10 years? Mm-hmm. I typically only go [00:32:00] for like a pap smear because I just don't go to the doctors and so I'm thinking, okay, I pay my tax, right. Like, I'm so entitled to this bloody blood test and here going, there's something wrong. I know there's something wrong. I wanna get a blood test. So there was that. There was bang, roadblock number one. So there was me begging and pleading to get this blood test done.

[00:32:23] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Not alone in that. A lot of the women I've spoken to,

[00:32:25] Dr Renee White: yes,

[00:32:26] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: have had this.

[00:32:27] Dr Renee White: I can't believe.

[00:32:28] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: I know. It's massive. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:29] Dr Renee White: I had this [00:32:30] conversation with so many people afterwards and I'm like, I had to, and I was like, it was a shit fight. La la, la. Anyways, so I get the blood test results back and it's the nurse from the GP clinic and all she says to me is, there's a note here that says you've got high cholesterol and you can just make modifications with your diet and we'll see you in 12 months and she wanted to end the phone call there and I was like, ha ha. Hold on a minute. Hold on a minute. First of [00:33:00] all, what was the number, like how high was it out of the range? Like are we talking like one point over the highest range? Like where are we? And then the second point is you're telling me that I need to make modifications to my diet, which Ps. I have a very good diet. Okay. Like, I'm happy to say that. Mm-hmm. And, and I was like, what are these modifications that I need to make? She said, I'm not joking. She said, that's above my pay grade.

[00:33:29] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Okay. Well [00:33:30] then maybe you should be put, maybe you should be seeing the doctor then. I mean, like as in I, yeah,

[00:33:34] Dr Renee White: but the, I, there's so many things that really miffed me about that. And I mean, obviously like the bedside manner on that was just ridiculous. Nevertheless, I finally got into a women's health clinic here in Tasmania and I took my results in, and here I am panicking that like I'm gonna have to change my whole diet, which I [00:34:00] really was not keen on because I have a really good diet. I go to the gym four times a week, like I was like, there's no way I don't smoke. I hardly drink like all these things and all I'm getting told is you need to change your life and I'm thinking, this is crazy. So go into my women's health clinic. I ps I have anxiety for two weeks because all I'm thinking is, yeah, they're gonna tell me I've gotta stop eating eggs.

[00:34:24] Dr Renee White: They're gonna tell me I've gotta stop eating eggs. I eat eggs every morning. I eat whole foods, [00:34:30] like, you know, liver and meat, blah, blah, blah. The first thing she says to me after I say, oh my God, my cholesterol's high. She goes, forget about it. Don't worry about it. And I was like, huh? I was like, I just got told that I have to change my whole diet and then I'll see them in 12 months. And she's like, let me show you something. So I was not aware of this, but evidently there's this like platform that they can like plug in.

[00:34:57] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: You put in all the risk factors.

[00:34:58] Dr Renee White: Yeah, you can see [00:35:00] the, all the risk of it. Yeah. And she was like, see the green? She goes, you are at 1% Renee. You could not get any lower in terms of like, is it cardiovascular disease risk? And I was just like 10 year risk. I was like, you have got to be joking I was furious, Ariella I was furious. I was so, cross and and the thing that really annoyed me is 'cause. She like the, this second doctor who knew exactly what you're talking about. She's like, Renee, it's [00:35:30] holistic. You need to look at it as a holistic perspective. She like

[00:35:33] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: not just a number, you can't get a number on a platform. It needs to be,

[00:35:36] Dr Renee White: she was like, look at a patient, were Yeah, a like. Older, white male smoker, drinking, overweight, like all these, all these other risk factors, fine. We would be having a conversation about, you know, having a look at your diet, probably, which I think she even said to me, we're really not sure that diet even changes cholesterol anymore. Like I think that [00:36:00] research has been debunked, but nevertheless. This is for educational purposes, everyone. You're not getting medical advice, but yes, the point is, is that all it would've taken for this person in the initial stage is to plug my data into this platform and go, oh,

[00:36:17] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: they should have done that.

[00:36:18] Dr Renee White: It's high.

[00:36:18] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: That's so basic,

[00:36:19] Dr Renee White: but given every other part of your human body and lifestyle factors, you're gonna be okay for a bit.

[00:36:28] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah a [00:36:30] 100 percent Exactly. So you would be able to, for example, you've could've gotten that result. You could've hopped into Ovum, Ovum will not give you diagnostics. Yeah. But it would, it would say to you, you know, um, ask your doctor about cardiovascular risk, or, or something like that. So then you can go back and say, well, this is my number, but can you calculate? Oh, actually you can even go on the computer. Anyone can go on. It's literally, I think, um. The heart foundation or something? Yes. You can actually go in and like plug in. Yes. With yourself. You could have even [00:37:00] gone and done that and be like, oh, okay. And then if you were still uncertain, you could then go to your doctor and say, listen, this is where I fall.

[00:37:06] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: I'm just checking that there's nothing else I need to do and then as women, cardiovascular disease is the biggest killer of women. Mm-hmm. And estrogen is cardioprotective. So I just wanna note that if our estrogen is going down in menopause perimenopause, that's can land to increasing in metabolic disease. Yep. Or cholesterol. But in a situation what, like, what happened here is like your control was taken away, [00:37:30] which led to you feeling anxious, which leads to like, what sounds like, like this, this small trauma response where you like, had this really horrific experience in the healthcare system broke your trust.

[00:37:39] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Mm-hmm. Um, for someone who wasn't going to the doctor that much anyway. Yeah. Um, all it did was like solidify this kind of conditioning that like. I shouldn't go to the doctor. I don't wanna go to the doctor. And I really don't enjoy going to the doctor when I do go to the doctor and they don't actually listen to me in the first place. So what's the point exactly um, and, and I think that is like, if you take that out and we look at how that [00:38:00] can apply, especially maybe to women who are at risk and are in like maybe low, um, health literacy groups, obviously you're not, but like for someone who is, you can see how dangerous that is and so

[00:38:11] Dr Renee White: that's what I kept thinking. Like all I kept thinking was there was two things that I got actually got really cross about. The first one I thought to myself is if, if I was elderly, right, like I would then be compelled to have to come back to the doctors, pay another God knows [00:38:30] what nomination fee, but I would have to try and get myself back to the doctors. Like that's a logistical nightmare for older people. Mm. And then secondly, yes, I, I'm like, I'm a well educated, like I have a PhD in biochemistry. Yeah. And I'm sitting here Googling going, how do I reduce my cholesterol through diet, you know? Yeah.

[00:38:52] Dr Renee White: I was just like, without blowing smoke up my own ass. But is there any hope for anyone else in like a [00:39:00] PhD graduate in biochemistry, Googling that like im just like just this is just not cool at all.

[00:39:07] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Well, I like as in, I think I touched on this, like I had chronic migraine. Um, I was in the health, I was in the health system as a doctor. Yeah. And I still struggled. Yeah. Like I really struggled and I had chronic, chronic symptoms and it took really long for me to be medicated. I understand. We don't wanna over medicalise and we don't wanna overprescribe, but it got to the point of, like I was having, migraines every day. Every single day. It wasn't like nausea, [00:39:30] vomiting in a room. I had debilitating brain fog, cognitive fatigue, facial pain. Um, it was dizziness if about dizziness. Mm-hmm. Like standing up. I remember being at the, OR like, like I had, like had vertigo, but it wasn't vertigo like, it was like a bit vestibular for anyone that's just kind of like your internal balance system.

[00:39:49] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And then I got put on a medication finally and guess what? Life changed? ta da like ta da literally with like and a medication that doesn't have a high side effect profile. So it's [00:40:00] really interesting because I think that like similarly as it affected you being like, I'm actually a very healthy, I'm like probably in the top percent, but you are definitely probably giving your background like the top percent of understanding biology and physiology, and yet you are still in a position. You're like, what? Yeah, I still, I'm,

[00:40:20] Dr Renee White: I'm so complexed by it.

[00:40:22] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: And you, and you advocate like you actually did. You said, I want a blood test. They told you you didn't need one, you pushed for it, you got one. You then said, I don't actually [00:40:30] agree with your advice. I'm gonna seek alternative options. That was like really smart of you to do, like you did advocate for yourself. Probably would've been easier if you had Ovum. Yeah. But you, you can think of women that just would not do that. No. Or they would've the time or the money or the,

[00:40:46] Dr Renee White: exactly. Yeah.

[00:40:47] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: You know,

[00:40:47] Dr Renee White: it's not cheap right. It's not, and I lucky that I have not a flexible work environment, you know? Yeah. All those kinds of things.

[00:40:54] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Hundred percent.

[00:40:55] Dr Renee White: And it takes forever to get into a doctor here in Tasmania. I'm not sure what it's like in Melbourne, but it [00:41:00] takes forever.

[00:41:00] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Depends on the clinic. Yeah.

[00:41:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah. It's, it's crazy. Um, speaking of doctors though, like I feel like we're gonna try and put them out of a job with Ovum. What are your thoughts on that? Like, do you think it's gonna reduce the need for people to seek out GPs and like I, I guess, have you got something in the tech where it's kind of like, okay, this seems like a red flag, so we're gonna suggest to them that they need to go and [00:41:30] see a medical professional and do you, I guess my, it's like, you know, third angle of that is do you suggest what type of medical professional, whether it's Allied healthcare, you know, whatever.

[00:41:43] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah, so as I touched on before, like we are not diagnostic, we. I don't want to replace a doctor. I think there is such an important need for a really good doctor, allied Health. You know, me being a doctor, like there is such a human [00:42:00] element to healthcare, right? Yeah. The problem is, is that the, the impact of the, uh, of the system is limiting how much doctors are able to give, like that human element is being lost because admin is like 90%. Yeah. Um, KPIs, making sure they get through patients, um. And I think if doctors are given more time, which they won't be, but if they're given more time in a different way, which is where I hope Ovum comes in where a woman's having some issue, she's guided by Ovum to seek attention or medical [00:42:30] attention, and maybe she wouldn't.

[00:42:31] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Mm. So we did have some case examples of women were reporting quite severe, like post-op complications and immediately said, call triple zero, go straight to hospital. Yeah. So stopping women going from acute and to chronic. Yeah. Which is a whole nother healthcare cost. Yeah. Um, it's getting them to see doctors earlier when they need to or other allied health, and also giving doctors a bit of a kind of backstory of like, this is like a bit of a history. Like you can, like, don't need to sit and take a whole history from the beginning, but also you can take a history that's really relevant to the [00:43:00] woman in front of you, because I think half the time is. And sitting on the computer asking them, you know, the questions and if you haven't seen this doctor before, you feel like by the end of it, you haven't really gotten to the point of what you need out of the appointment.

[00:43:12] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: You've paid $180 or whatever it is if you're not bulk billed. Mm-hmm. And so what I hope Ovum does is, is helping the woman provide that information so she gets out of the appointment what she needs, but it's also helping the doctor get, gather the history to support them reaching an outcome for the patient that's actually what, what the patient needs, [00:43:30] um, and allows the doctor more time to give that a bit more human element or a bit more empathetic element when sometimes the burnout impacts that. Yeah. So again, you know, I don't really want Ovum to step in and replace doctors. I want it to be a tool that supports shared decision making between doctor and woman in a way that's more equitable, whether that's eventually moving into some kind of integration, we hope to do that in the future.

[00:43:53] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Being something that can help, you know, hospitals at some point provide better women's healthcare. You know, obviously this is like a distant, uh, [00:44:00] dream right now, but, you know, we are doing clinical trials for a reason so that we have really good clinically validated data that Ovum is a tool for women and engages and more in preventative health behaviors. Mm. And from my beta and all the research I've done so far, I. I have a feeling of the results we're going to get, but it would be great to, you know, get these papers out, publish papers that validate it to hospitals and clinicians. Yeah. And we have a lot of clinicians that are super supportive. Yeah. I will say that like, you know, my professors that are supporting me with the [00:44:30] PhD, I have professors that are advisors. Um, so there are doctors, there's just a range of doctors, as you know, and there's doctors are very forward thinking and there's doctors that aren't. And it's about finding the right doctor. I think as well.

[00:44:42] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. I could not agree more. I find, I think that was one of the things that I found perplexing during my PhD. I was like, as scientists, we're supposed to be thinking outside the box, but there was some clear personalities there who were like, no, this is [00:45:00] dogma and it's never changing and it's like, really? Is that what we're gonna be doing here? Like that's not benefiting anyone by that.

[00:45:09] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah. Academia. It can be a bit, it's a mindset like that.

[00:45:13] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:45:13] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Very much.

[00:45:13] Dr Renee White: Absolutely. Before we jump into our, uh, rapid fire, which are three questions that we ask every guest, I would love to, uh, don't panic. Don't panic, don't panic people like, oh, I didn't sign up for that. I wanna know. [00:45:30] When can we expect the commercial version of Ovum? And how do you, do you know how you're gonna plan to roll it out in terms of, is it subscription based or is it one-off payment? And like, what do we anticipate, um, that to be.

[00:45:45] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Sure. So we are launching to market in May, so probably end of May, I would say rather than beginning, which is super exciting. Um, we're actually launching on so it'll be Android and Apple available for everyone. It's $14.99 per [00:46:00] month or you can pay it forward and pay, um, $24.99 per month. So that's a pay it forward to another woman who can't afford it. Goes to our financial aid pool where we'll distribute it to clinics and um, non-for-profit groups to distribute to women in need. Whether that's from low socioeconomic groups or certain cultural backgrounds, and that's really to get into the hands of women who really need it, but also to increase our diversity in our data.

[00:46:22] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Mm-hmm. Which I think is super important. There'll also be an ability to pay annually with like a, a 10% discount. Um, so that's [00:46:30] what we're looking at at the moment, but we're also rolling it out through workplaces. So offering it as a tool for workplaces. Mm-hmm. So employers can pay for it for their female employees because we know that the ROI or return on investment is massive because women probably will attend work more. They'll look after, they'll be able to engage in healthier behaviors. We know that this impacts productivity and efficacy at work and even just at the last, there's a few surveys that came out recently. One was the Gene Hale survey. Those are actually 2023. When I looked [00:47:00] at like menstrual literacy and menopause literacy or leave in the workplace, and I was like.

[00:47:05] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Majority of the women in that I think is 3,200. So they were scared to bring up anything to do with like health concerns, menstrual health, menopause, because they were scared of being discriminated against and that's pretty shocking. So I'm hoping Ovum works as a safe place for women in the workplace can actually speak, ask questions, and again, have the information to be like actually I do need to seek help for this. Mm-hmm. And I do need to take that time to look after myself [00:47:30] right now. So I'm more productive at work and I feel happier in my workplace. Yeah. I feel safe in my workplace. I've got an exciting, um, partner that we can't speak to yet, but that we will be announcing hopefully soon. But I think it's also, you know, if you download it for yourself also, you know, speaking to your employer, if you know they're very women's health focused and saying, yeah, this something you'd get for your, for your staff. Um, I think

[00:47:54] Dr Renee White: I love that idea.

[00:47:55] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Think that's gonna be Yeah. Research side as well.

[00:47:58] Dr Renee White: Also the pay forward [00:48:00] one I love. I think that's fantastic. Fantastic idea. Okay. Are you ready to jump into our rapid fire? I promise you it's not crazy it sounds rough. Rapid fire. Maybe I'll have to change that, that up.

[00:48:11] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah, it's a rapid fire.

[00:48:12] Dr Renee White: Okay. What is your, I say, I typically say what is your top tip for mothers, but I wanna, I wanna broaden this. What's your top tip for women?

[00:48:23] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Trust your instinct and if you don't feel something's right, feel concerned. Ask the [00:48:30] question, like, stand up for yourself. Mm-hmm. You know yourself better than any health professional. Yeah. That would be my advice. Agreed. And they should be listening to you if you are really not sure about something

[00:48:41] Dr Renee White: great. Uh, what is your, like, do you have a go-to resource, whether it's a book, a workshop? I've had people kind of talk about quotes or poems or something like that. Something that kind of. It might have inspired your journey [00:49:00] along the way.

[00:49:01] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Uh, I do listen to Diary of a CEO.

[00:49:04] Dr Renee White: Oh my God, I love that so much.

[00:49:08] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Such a good podcast. I, you know, I don't actually listen to a lot of podcasts because I'm not always finding that I have the most time, but I always leave that podcast being like, I. I love the chat. I love the chat. I love the, the quotes that come out of it, the lessons, the people, like the diversity of people that on that podcast is fantastic. Mm-hmm. And there's a lot of really good women's [00:49:30] women's health ones on there as well.

[00:49:31] Dr Renee White: Did you watch the Stacy Sims one?

[00:49:33] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Is that the exercise physiologist? The In the data in, yeah. Yes. I love that.

[00:49:39] Dr Renee White: I worship that woman.

[00:49:41] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yeah, like doctors don't learn about nutrition and exercise. No, I was, I was sitting there and I just got diagnosed with PCOS. Again, a doctor didn't read my bloods right. And I had to be like, these aren't right. Oh, that's not right. And then I had PCOS, so I was right, but if I wasn't a doctor, I wouldn't have, and I did put it into Ovum as well and it did [00:50:00] say that my hormones were out of range and things that when I was told they were normal.

[00:50:04] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:50:05] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: So, you know, um, there you go. But anyway, sidetrack. Yes. I did love, I loved that podcast. So for a girl with PCOS as well where cortisol and all the stuff really affects your weight and

[00:50:15] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Awesome. I love that. Um, okay, final question. We borrow this one off Brene Brown, who I also love. What do you keep on your bedside table?

[00:50:28] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Ooh, [00:50:30] okay. I have a candle. I actually have at the moment, Troy Van's new fragrance candle. It's really good. I have this really nice Japanese like perfume. It's like a, it's just a very relaxing scent. So I always like to spray that on before bed and I have a magnesium spray, which I always, um, put on the bottom of my feet before I go to sleep. And my lamp.

[00:50:53] Dr Renee White: Good. Love it. Yeah, love it. Thank you so much. Thank you for coming on and this has been a fascinating [00:51:00] topic. As soon as you said yes, I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be amazing.

[00:51:03] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: No, thank you so much. I really, really enjoy this. Great questions, great conversation. You. Completely natural with this. You are so good at,

[00:51:10] Dr Renee White: oh, thank you. Yeah, I'd just like to have a chat, really. And then I just get to post on the internet. Love. Okay, so for all those listeners, we're expecting end of May for Yes. Release. Where can we find it? Let us know. Your website, your socials, all the things.

[00:51:27] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yes. So Instagram [00:51:30] is Ovum ai. Also, if you type us in Google Ovum AI, we, we are the first that comes up. You can go to our website there and if you, there are a few links on throughout all of the website where you can sign up for early access. So you'll get access to an earlier release, probably like two weeks out. So you might get it earlier in May and we'll probably ask a lot of those women who are, you know, part of our early access cohort. We actually have so many, which is amazing. Is to give us, like, have that opportunity to give us direct feedback because it's all, you know, made by [00:52:00] women for women, and so we're always asking for that feedback. So if you're really interested in giving insights and things as well, you'll definitely be part of that and you can opt in when you sign up to be contacted for that.

[00:52:11] Dr Renee White: That's amazing. Awesome. I'm gonna do that right now.

[00:52:14] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yes, please. Please do.

[00:52:17] Dr Renee White: Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I can't wait for everyone to hear this episode. I think it's gonna be amazing and I cannot wait to see how this evolves. This I, this is. This is [00:52:30] chapter one. I know for sure. Yeah. This is gonna be an amazing story. I think so, um, congratulations to you. You should be amazingly proud because you are a spring chicken. Am I allowed to ask you how old you are? I'm 30. Yeah, your spring chicken.

[00:52:46] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: People think like as in in the hospital though, like I remember people would be like, are you like my doctor? Yes. I'm like, how old are you? Like are you 21? And I'm like, no, I'm actually not. But thank you. You made my day.

[00:52:56] Dr Renee White: Thank you. That skincare treatment is doing wonders.

[00:52:59] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: Yes. [00:53:00] Good skincare. That is for sure.

[00:53:02] Dr Renee White: Ariella, it's been amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and

[00:53:08] Dr Ariella Heffernan-Marks: thanks for having me.

[00:53:09] Dr Renee White: Yeah, everyone, we will see you next week. If you loved this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review. If you know someone out there who would also love to listen to this episode, please hit the share button so they can benefit from it as well.

[00:53:28] Dr Renee White: You've just listened to another [00:53:30] episode of The Science of Motherhood proudly presented by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. Head to our website I fill your cup.com to learn more about our birth and postpartum doula offerings where every mother we pledge to be the steady hand that guides you back to yourself. Ensuring you feel nurtured, informed, and empowered so you can fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence. Until next time, bye.