1
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I, sorry, bro.

2
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That's just, that's not who I am.

3
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Like that's, that's not how I've gotten to where I am.

4
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And that's not how I built this amazing team.

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Like I built an amazing team that looks at the situation and says, you know what?

6
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We can do that.

7
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Yeah, we can do that.

8
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And agile was a major disruptor for me because it started getting me almost every decision
I look in the mirror and I'm like, you know, is there a better way to do this?

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Or is it different way to do it?

10
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It's should I be talking to someone else to get a better way or a different way or an idea
or something like that, anything and to be more open minded.

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I would even disagree with myself,

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don't get stuck.

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It's really it's really a trap for leaders.

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there will be people that will be on the outside talking about, that's going to fail.

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That's going to be a mess.

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that's not going to work.

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There's no way that's going to happen.

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okay, cool.

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That's fine.

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You're allowed to think that but that's not going to change the thing that we're doing
because we've done everything that Bob just talked about.

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So Bob's doing the intro that means I gotta shut up

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which is hard for you to do.

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Hey, Metacasters, welcome to the cast today.

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I'm Bobby G.

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Galen, and I wanna introduce our topic.

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uh No, uh back in the 80s probably, mid to late 80s, uh I was leading, I was a software
engineering manager or director.

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and I was studying leadership, probably mostly because I sucked at it, and I was studying
everything.

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I was looking for role models, et cetera.

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And Colin Powell, this was pre-my Agile days.

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This was on the cusp of traditional management to Agile.

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And I came upon these 18 principles from Colin Powell.

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Colin Powell was a general in the military, secretary of state, I think under the Bush,
under one of the Bushes, and uh just someone I...

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When I read his 18 keys to leadership, uh it really resonated with me.

34
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It provided some wisdom.

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uh And it stayed with me not that long ago.

36
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I was flashing back.

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So this is what 40 years ago, 40 years ago or so.

38
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And I was looking at the principles again.

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It's hard to find them now online or harder to find them.

40
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And they really resonated again.

41
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So I suggested Josh that we share them.

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So this is Colin Powell's 18 principles to highly.

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effective leadership and we've picked, we've done one of our pick five.

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We're going to, so Josh picked his top five, I did, and we're going to run through them.

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Yes, we are.

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Are you ready?

47
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You want to go first or you want me to go first?

48
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Well, I picked lesson number one.

49
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So being responsible sometimes means pissing people off.

50
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And uh I agree with that.

51
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And I think a lot of leaders, uh they are really reluctant to have crucial conversations.

52
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They're really reluctant to uh speak truth to power, the power being their teams in this
case, that they'll obfuscate.

53
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uh

54
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They'll mislead, they'll be too subtle, they won't be clear.

55
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Because they're afraid, oh, I can't aggravate the masses, it'll undermine our roadmap, et
cetera, et cetera.

56
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that fear is not leadership.

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So the goal of this principle is not to piss people off.

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The goal of this, or the point of this principle, is to not be afraid of pissing people
off.

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To not let that be one of your guiding principles as a leader.

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But to be a truth teller, it's, we, think in one of our episodes, we talked about being a
truth teller up and out, but this is being a truth teller to your teams, even when the

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truth is gonna aggravate them.

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And that's something, it just resonates with me so much as to boldly go where, I need to,
ah not be afraid of aggravating people, not be afraid of making them angry.

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Yeah, I just, so I'm a movie, TV guy, and also a sports guy.

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Think of every movie you've ever seen.

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Remember the Titans or something like that, where there's a transformational coach.

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There's somebody that comes in to a team, takes that team from what they were to what they
could be, and recognize all of the times.

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when that leader that that person says something that that group doesn't like, but it's
something the group needs to hear for that group to achieve whatever they're trying to get

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done.

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Every movie, every story, every book, everything, where there's a transformation requires
that because you're just going to keep doing the same thing.

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and you get stuck in this rut and you're oh man, I wish we would be better, I wish we
would be better, but you don't want to do the hard thing.

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So then someone has to come in and make you do the hard thing to evolve and transform.

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And it often requires saying things that people might not want to hear, but that's the
job.

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So I would million percent agree.

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Absolutely.

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Real quickly about a Kestrel, it's not just what you say, it's what you do as well.

76
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So let's say uh Josh is a software manager reporting to me and I'm the CTO of a company
and I want to uh promote Josh and no one in the company likes Josh.

77
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And this is farfetched, but no one in the company likes Josh.

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Everyone thinks he's a Moronsky.

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And when I announced his promotion and I announced my rationale for it,

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my reasons before and I'm setting him up for success, but no one agrees with me.

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And I know that in advance because I know Josh, but I know that in advance, but I go
through with it because he's the right guy.

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He's the right guy and I believe in him.

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again, it's what you say and then what you do.

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ah What you do is gonna piss people off.

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You stick to your guns.

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ah What's the next number in order, Josh?

87
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So I'm going to cheat.

88
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think, I think you'll label this as cheating.

89
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I am going to do a combo platter.

90
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I'm going to do number three and number four together because I believe they kind of work
together.

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They're kind of hand in hand.

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So number three is don't be buffaloed by experts and elites.

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Experts often possess more data than judgment and the elites become so inbred that they're

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that they produce hemophiliacs who bleed to death as soon as they are nicked by the real
world.

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And number four is don't be afraid to challenge the pros even in their own backyard.

96
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So I was looking forward to this one because I think about challenging the pros even in
their own backyard.

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I've been having to wrestle with this Bob Galen guy for 15 years.

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So boy, do I believe in this one.

99
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So this is one of those things and we have talked about it a lot about

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Don't be afraid to challenge the pros.

101
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The thought leaders air quote that are out there oftentimes haven't done the job.

102
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And so they're pontificating on, hey, here's how it should work.

103
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And then you scratch the surface like, well, I mean, like what happened when you did that?

104
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How did that work?

105
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And it's not, there's not much there like, well, wait a minute, wait a minute.

106
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How, why should I be like hanging on every word that you're typing or sharing or whatever?

107
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And you haven't done the thing.

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Now it's good to get those different opinions and viewpoints, but there are no silver
bullets.

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Don't take anything anybody says, Bob, myself, anybody else that's out there, don't take
it as gospel.

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You cannot.

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We might be considered experts or pros, but don't just take what we've done and copy and
paste it into your life because your life is not the life that we...

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live that we're sharing our stories from Spotify is one of those major things I, you know,
if you've been around the podcast for a while, you know that I like the things that

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Spotify did.

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And in our area, I kicked off and started doing a bunch of Spotify stuff.

115
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And then I turned around and like I saw all these job postings for chapter leads and all
these different spot of my things like, wait a minute, what are you people doing?

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You know?

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So yeah, it's just be careful.

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Take everything with a grain of salt, including this podcast.

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Absolutely.

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I was going to add to that everyone.

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It's not just uh how recently have they done it is another variation.

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So I haven't written software in 20 years.

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That's just real software.

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I've dabbled, but real software.

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So you do not want to listen to me for design techniques.

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or design trade-offs.

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mean, higher level things perhaps, guidelines, et cetera.

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But again, it's always asked people, did you do it?

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And when was the last time you did it?

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So just when was the last time you did it?

131
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And did you really lead it or were you part of a 100 person team that did something?

132
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And you did one line of code before you left in your one day of work or something like
that.

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ah Lesson number six, Josh, is my next one.

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Ooh, that was my next one too.

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All right, we'll do it.

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We'll do a match on this.

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You don't know what you can get away with until you try.

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And there's there's an old technique, Metacaster is called or an old thought called
managers discretion.

139
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I don't know if it's still valid, but as I was growing up in the 80s, 90s, 2000s, 2010s,
even there was uh HR departments and leadership teams.

140
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We talked about there was an intangible wiggle room where managers had discretion.

141
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Like I could buy something and I may or may not have the budget for it.

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And then I asked for forgiveness, right?

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I do something and then I asked for forgiveness.

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And that's the thing here.

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I think as leaders, we want to be on that hairy edge.

146
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ah We don't want to be creating insubordination.

147
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We don't want to be totally jerking our leaders around.

148
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But we want to be supporting the mission.

149
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And we want to be stretching the things that our teams need.

150
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And I don't see enough boldness in leaders today.

151
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I haven't seen it.

152
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I haven't seen it ever in leaders.

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This manager, I used to lean into management discretion.

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So I used to get, you know, just put up against the wall.

155
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It was like, well, I used my discretion.

156
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I used my judgment.

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What?

158
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You're not supposed to do that.

159
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ah And then I took the licking.

160
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But I was supporting the mission.

161
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I was supporting the the project.

162
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I was supporting the business, if you will.

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Josh.

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Yeah, this was a lesson that I learned from Gonzalo Hidalgo at Teradata.

165
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So Bob and I both worked with and for him and we didn't always agree with him, but Gonzalo
was really good at understanding the rules and playing within them, but stretching them.

166
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And that was an eye opener for me.

167
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So he understood the protocols.

168
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He understood

169
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how to do the things, but he also understood that how we choose to execute under the
covers, that's up to us.

170
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And we are the ones that are closest to the problem and we can figure out the best way to
unlock our team and their capabilities.

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And you can't just be, again, a carbon copy.

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And so as I saw him do that, it was an eye opener because we had some real struggles with
hiring, because we worked at a big company and they had all these procedures and...

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all these levels before a resume would show up on a manager's desk.

174
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So he figured out a way to work around that and get people that he could find in quickly
and making a difference and work them through the system.

175
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And that was an eye opener for me.

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So I've, again, looked at that very, very similar to what Bob said is you, you you
understand the things you have to do and then you understand the ways you can work around

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them or through them and be comfortable.

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you know, the number of times I said, Hey, we're going to do this.

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And like a member of my team, like, can we do that?

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Like, has anybody said we can't, you like there's nothing that says we can't do it.

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We're just choosing to do it differently.

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Like there's no, we don't have to, we only have to do this.

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You know, one of the things that was a pretty large moment was when we chose to change the
way that we figured out a bonus and the, and the company, all I had to do as a leader was

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send an Excel file to HR of every person on my team and what the bonus was that they were
going to get.

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There was no edict on how I calculated that.

186
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And so we chose to discuss it as a team and allocate it to ourselves as a team and take
that a person was like, well, you know, we're to get in trouble.

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Like, what are we going to get in trouble for?

188
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We're not going to get there.

189
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Like we are doing the thing we've been asked to do.

190
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We've been given a bucket of money.

191
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And it's my responsibility to allocate it amongst this group.

192
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And as long as the number adds up to the number that I have, I'm good.

193
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It doesn't matter.

194
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We can choose to operate however we want.

195
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Okay.

196
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You are a bold man.

197
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I like listening to your Challenge HR stories, Josh.

198
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I do.

199
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It warms my heart.

200
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My next number's 13, so do you have anything?

201
00:13:29,977 --> 00:13:31,297
I have two before that.

202
00:13:31,297 --> 00:13:32,918
I get to double dip here.

203
00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:35,649
So this will align with that.

204
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Number 11, fit no stereotypes.

205
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Don't chase the latest management fads.

206
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The situation dictates which approach best accomplishes the team's mission.

207
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So you may have heard me say some words that sounds like this is the thing that I'm pretty
passionate about.

208
00:13:53,067 --> 00:13:58,109
um This has really been a driver.

209
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for me because of my anti-mentor approach or anti-mentor history that I had where I never
had this pattern or practice laid in front of me that I believed in that I knew worked.

210
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I never had a blueprint, a roadmap for this is what being a great leader looks like.

211
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So I just felt like I had to figure it out.

212
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And I leaned on my agile background and I just started trying things and discarding them
if they didn't work, trying them quickly, failing fast, failing, like all of those things

213
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so that I could find the thing that worked because I didn't know what the answer was.

214
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So I felt my only path out of this was, Hey, let's just try stuff and see what works.

215
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And that often meant doing things that people weren't really thinking about.

216
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In fact, agile was one of those things.

217
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one of the teams I was working with.

218
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We just didn't like the way things were going.

219
00:14:56,309 --> 00:14:57,509
So we started changing stuff.

220
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:59,489
We started doing things differently.

221
00:14:59,489 --> 00:15:01,989
And we had been doing this for close to a year.

222
00:15:01,989 --> 00:15:07,569
And then one of my lead, lead devs, sent me a message like, Hey, here's a link to this web
page.

223
00:15:07,569 --> 00:15:09,509
And there's this thing called agile.

224
00:15:09,609 --> 00:15:11,949
And I think we're doing it.

225
00:15:11,949 --> 00:15:15,469
And that and so that wasn't unlocked for us like, holy cow, there's other people doing
this.

226
00:15:15,469 --> 00:15:16,589
That's so exciting.

227
00:15:16,589 --> 00:15:20,785
But we wouldn't have gotten there if we weren't willing to

228
00:15:20,785 --> 00:15:22,831
Just try and do something different.

229
00:15:22,831 --> 00:15:28,136
Try and find the thing that works and not accept that what you're doing now isn't working.

230
00:15:28,136 --> 00:15:28,754
All right, Bob.

231
00:15:28,754 --> 00:15:40,653
of the biggest dangers for leaders is you fall into a sense of comfort with your ways of
doing work, ah with your strategies, with your tactics, with your habits.

232
00:15:40,653 --> 00:15:45,497
ah I try to challenge myself.

233
00:15:45,497 --> 00:15:46,497
I don't do it enough.

234
00:15:46,497 --> 00:15:52,141
I've learned over the years, decades, to do it more and more because I'm a comfort zone
guy.

235
00:15:52,141 --> 00:15:54,323
So historically, I'm a comfort zone guy.

236
00:15:54,323 --> 00:15:56,194
If it works, then it works.

237
00:15:56,324 --> 00:15:58,566
I can easily fall into a habit.

238
00:15:58,566 --> 00:16:07,068
And agile was a major disruptor for me because it started getting me almost every decision
I look in the mirror and I'm like, you know, is there a better way to do this?

239
00:16:07,068 --> 00:16:08,149
Or is it different way to do it?

240
00:16:08,149 --> 00:16:15,700
It's should I be talking to someone else to get a better way or a different way or an idea
or something like that, anything and to be more open minded.

241
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:18,092
I would even disagree with myself, right?

242
00:16:18,092 --> 00:16:20,964
Overnight I think of a different, ah, that was wrong.

243
00:16:20,964 --> 00:16:22,446
That's two sides.

244
00:16:22,446 --> 00:16:25,924
I'll wake up the next day and I'm like 180.

245
00:16:25,924 --> 00:16:28,066
this degree is spun on it.

246
00:16:28,066 --> 00:16:30,259
But it's that it's that don't get stuck.

247
00:16:30,259 --> 00:16:33,152
It's really it's really a trap for leaders.

248
00:16:33,152 --> 00:16:37,617
ah It's been a trap for me and I'm still I'm still a work in progress when it comes to
that.

249
00:16:37,617 --> 00:16:39,378
So Josh is right on.

250
00:16:39,419 --> 00:16:40,668
Do you have 12, Josh?

251
00:16:40,668 --> 00:16:42,148
do have 12.

252
00:16:42,168 --> 00:16:47,110
So I have number 12, which is perpetual optimism as a force multiplier.

253
00:16:47,350 --> 00:16:49,310
I know.

254
00:16:50,081 --> 00:16:50,951
we're to talk about that.

255
00:16:50,951 --> 00:16:53,622
Yeah.

256
00:16:53,622 --> 00:16:56,052
So this was something that smacked me in the face.

257
00:16:56,052 --> 00:17:08,216
So I was working for a CTO, you know, uh 10, 12 years ago, and I was the VP of software
engineering and we had a V VP of it and we were in there and we were talking about

258
00:17:08,216 --> 00:17:10,016
something and

259
00:17:10,332 --> 00:17:12,213
the CTO like pounded the desk.

260
00:17:12,213 --> 00:17:19,136
He's like, I cannot live in a world where my leader of software engineering is an
optimist.

261
00:17:19,176 --> 00:17:21,427
That is just not gonna work.

262
00:17:21,427 --> 00:17:23,338
I need you to be a pessimist.

263
00:17:23,338 --> 00:17:27,980
I need you to think the world's gonna end and like be defensive about everything.

264
00:17:27,980 --> 00:17:29,340
I, sorry, bro.

265
00:17:29,340 --> 00:17:31,621
That's just, that's not who I am.

266
00:17:31,621 --> 00:17:35,943
Like that's, that's not how I've gotten to where I am.

267
00:17:35,943 --> 00:17:38,354
And that's not how I built this amazing team.

268
00:17:38,354 --> 00:17:42,666
Like I built an amazing team that looks at the situation and says, you know what?

269
00:17:43,226 --> 00:17:44,387
We can do that.

270
00:17:44,387 --> 00:17:45,847
Yeah, we can do that.

271
00:17:45,847 --> 00:17:53,681
Now, I of course wrapped processes and communication protocols around that so that we
weren't over promising, right?

272
00:17:53,681 --> 00:17:55,252
That was something that we didn't do.

273
00:17:55,252 --> 00:18:01,474
There's a difference between over promising and getting yourself in trouble with
publishing dates and being an optimist, right?

274
00:18:01,474 --> 00:18:05,498
You have to believe that you can do a thing because...

275
00:18:05,498 --> 00:18:14,978
One of my favorite things that I tell my kids all the time that I know they are absolutely
sick of is whether you think you can, whether you think you can't, you're right.

276
00:18:15,159 --> 00:18:19,343
So I try and lean into we can and we're gonna figure it out.

277
00:18:19,343 --> 00:18:27,493
So that is one of those things that just to me is wired into who I am and will be wired
into the teams that I build forever.

278
00:18:27,493 --> 00:18:29,635
I mean, uh I can't agree more, Josh.

279
00:18:29,635 --> 00:18:31,653
I'm a can-do kind of guy.

280
00:18:31,653 --> 00:18:33,078
I mean, I've always been...

281
00:18:33,078 --> 00:18:44,998
uh You remember that story where the first time I did public speaking, I paired with
someone at a conference in San Diego, and uh the author of the thing we were speaking

282
00:18:44,998 --> 00:18:47,151
about was sitting in the front row.

283
00:18:47,151 --> 00:18:48,531
was like God.

284
00:18:48,531 --> 00:18:53,615
uh sort of Eric and I did the talk.

285
00:18:53,615 --> 00:18:54,806
I don't even remember it.

286
00:18:54,806 --> 00:18:56,211
I think I brain dead.

287
00:18:56,211 --> 00:18:56,791
Yeah.

288
00:18:56,791 --> 00:18:57,222
time.

289
00:18:57,222 --> 00:19:00,903
Seriously, I don't remember what happened or anything.

290
00:19:00,964 --> 00:19:02,936
Eric has never spoken in public again.

291
00:19:02,936 --> 00:19:03,766
He was scarred.

292
00:19:03,766 --> 00:19:08,269
was he was physically damaged as a result.

293
00:19:08,269 --> 00:19:11,011
And I took that as I can do that.

294
00:19:11,051 --> 00:19:13,192
It's a it's a challenge to me.

295
00:19:13,193 --> 00:19:14,904
It's it's and it's a big challenge.

296
00:19:14,904 --> 00:19:18,486
The bigger the challenge of writing a book was another child.

297
00:19:18,486 --> 00:19:19,937
My writing sucked.

298
00:19:19,937 --> 00:19:22,079
And my first book, I challenged myself.

299
00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:26,001
I I I think that can do spirit.

300
00:19:26,501 --> 00:19:28,593
uh, permeates my leadership journey.

301
00:19:28,593 --> 00:19:30,184
It's done me a good service.

302
00:19:30,184 --> 00:19:35,797
And I think anyone that I've seen with can do spirits versus can't do spirits, they can do
is Trump.

303
00:19:35,797 --> 00:19:39,290
can't do's, unless the can't do's are in QA.

304
00:19:39,290 --> 00:19:39,920
was a joke.

305
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:47,455
Everyone, you want, you want can't do's in QA.

306
00:19:47,455 --> 00:19:48,481
I've just, I'm just kidding.

307
00:19:48,481 --> 00:19:49,577
I'm just kidding.

308
00:19:49,577 --> 00:19:53,859
I have 13 and it's pals rules for picking people.

309
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,091
P Peter pumpkin.

310
00:19:56,091 --> 00:20:04,075
picking people, look for intelligence and judgment and most critically a capacity to
anticipate, to see around corners.

311
00:20:04,075 --> 00:20:11,271
Also look for loyalty, integrity, a high energy drive, a balanced ego and the drive to get
things done.

312
00:20:11,271 --> 00:20:18,856
I don't know if I'm, if all of them are equal in my mind, like get think, getting things
done is a high power, but they're all soft skills, metacasters.

313
00:20:18,856 --> 00:20:25,851
And the point I was going to make is we very often, we look at hard skills for people and
I think hard skills are more trainable.

314
00:20:25,851 --> 00:20:29,403
We need you need training trainable folks for hard skills.

315
00:20:29,403 --> 00:20:36,187
But these soft skills, these character skills, these character attributes, which is what
he's talking about.

316
00:20:36,187 --> 00:20:39,989
Like someone who can look around corners is curious.

317
00:20:40,060 --> 00:20:40,790
my gosh.

318
00:20:40,790 --> 00:20:44,732
If you get a few of those folks in your team, that can that can be a godsend.

319
00:20:44,732 --> 00:20:46,894
If everyone is balanced egos.

320
00:20:46,894 --> 00:20:52,857
ah Another way of saying that is you don't you don't hire assholes, but you're you're
hiring balanced egos.

321
00:20:52,945 --> 00:20:58,407
I think those are the critical things that I've learned to focus on in building great
teams.

322
00:20:58,407 --> 00:21:01,408
ah And it's all about picking people.

323
00:21:01,629 --> 00:21:10,092
The reason I picked it as part of my top five, it's one of the most critical things we do
as leaders, as we compose, we orchestrate, we conduct.

324
00:21:11,253 --> 00:21:13,794
We conduct great teams.

325
00:21:13,794 --> 00:21:15,394
That's what we do.

326
00:21:15,394 --> 00:21:16,445
And you have to take that.

327
00:21:16,445 --> 00:21:22,177
I know I'm joking with my metaphor in a silly way, but I'm being absolutely dead serious.

328
00:21:22,223 --> 00:21:29,160
We need to be crisp and clean and visioned about how we put teams together.

329
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:33,305
There's so many variations there and to be artful about it.

330
00:21:33,305 --> 00:21:34,089
Josh?

331
00:21:34,089 --> 00:21:38,814
Yeah, the challenge there is these are harder to detect.

332
00:21:38,914 --> 00:21:42,728
And so oftentimes people opt out of trying to figure that out.

333
00:21:42,728 --> 00:21:48,365
They look for the easy quicker way out of give me a checklist of technical skills and
experience.

334
00:21:48,365 --> 00:21:50,468
need five years of this and six of that and seven of that.

335
00:21:50,468 --> 00:21:52,348
And if they have those things cool, them.

336
00:21:53,117 --> 00:21:55,559
that's going to end up blowing up in your face.

337
00:21:55,559 --> 00:22:02,355
So you have to really invest in your hiring process to understand these soft skills, which
ones are most important to you.

338
00:22:02,355 --> 00:22:05,327
And then you have to devise a way and it's hard.

339
00:22:05,327 --> 00:22:10,501
It's very difficult to be able to figure that out in a hiring process.

340
00:22:10,501 --> 00:22:19,879
But when you do, when you develop patterns and practices that allow you to figure that
out, your team will accelerate faster than you can ever imagine.

341
00:22:19,879 --> 00:22:22,401
Because what I found is that when

342
00:22:22,803 --> 00:22:30,158
When you stack up a bunch of people like this together, just get out of the freaking way,
right?

343
00:22:30,158 --> 00:22:32,099
And just let them go.

344
00:22:32,493 --> 00:22:35,361
that, I agree a million percent.

345
00:22:36,305 --> 00:22:37,936
My next one is 16, Josh.

346
00:22:37,936 --> 00:22:38,556
What's your next?

347
00:22:38,556 --> 00:22:41,287
Okay.

348
00:22:41,287 --> 00:22:48,130
So the commander in the field is always right and the rear echelon is wrong unless proved
otherwise.

349
00:22:48,130 --> 00:22:55,153
And I think of this, that sounds very militaristic and it is, I mean, that's his
leadership journey, the majority of it.

350
00:22:55,153 --> 00:23:01,415
ah But I think of it as hierarchy and hierarchical organization pushing down
decision-making.

351
00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:05,597
When I've had senior level uh roles,

352
00:23:05,879 --> 00:23:17,412
I was listening intently to folks who were in the field, like someone who's in the team
writing the code, someone who's a product owner, who's talking to a customer.

353
00:23:17,572 --> 00:23:20,953
I mean, I can't tell you, I had a leadership role.

354
00:23:20,953 --> 00:23:22,493
was guiding an organization.

355
00:23:22,493 --> 00:23:24,554
was collaborating with product.

356
00:23:25,094 --> 00:23:27,955
I had all of this responsibility, all of this stuff.

357
00:23:27,955 --> 00:23:36,087
But when it came to sort of, you know, who's right, who's wrong or where the decision's
coming from, my ears went down.

358
00:23:36,625 --> 00:23:39,185
And it wasn't just, and it wasn't artificial listening.

359
00:23:39,185 --> 00:23:40,625
It was deep listening.

360
00:23:40,625 --> 00:23:45,925
It was, and I try to, I try to get different voices or different points of view from a
team.

361
00:23:45,925 --> 00:23:47,925
Does anyone else, does everyone else agree with that?

362
00:23:47,925 --> 00:23:49,685
Does someone else see it a different way?

363
00:23:49,685 --> 00:23:57,105
And I'm trying to get those in the field or where the rubber meets the road, all of those
euphemisms.

364
00:23:57,305 --> 00:23:59,385
That's leadership to me.

365
00:23:59,385 --> 00:24:01,405
And I've seen the reverse.

366
00:24:01,405 --> 00:24:06,545
I had so many leaders, Josh, you probably not work this way, but leaders are getting in a
room.

367
00:24:06,577 --> 00:24:14,797
I'm like people who haven't designed a freaking app in 10 years and they're deciding crap
in a room or they haven't talked.

368
00:24:14,797 --> 00:24:17,537
They've talked to customer execs, but they haven't.

369
00:24:17,537 --> 00:24:21,997
They haven't talked to who uses the damn product that they're building, right?

370
00:24:21,997 --> 00:24:28,857
Their product owners have, but they're acting like, well, I talked to, you know, the CEO,
the blah, blah, blah, blah.

371
00:24:28,857 --> 00:24:30,637
And I know what they want.

372
00:24:30,637 --> 00:24:36,697
No, you don't have the humility, have the humility, have the wherewithal to go low.

373
00:24:36,859 --> 00:24:38,149
to go low.

374
00:24:38,149 --> 00:24:44,631
And what is it that hippo thing or whatever the highest paid person in the org or in the
room?

375
00:24:45,051 --> 00:24:45,621
Yeah.

376
00:24:45,621 --> 00:24:50,133
And that the whole notion of that is the hippo controls the room.

377
00:24:50,133 --> 00:24:52,173
No, I would say what's up?

378
00:24:52,173 --> 00:24:52,803
What's the reverse?

379
00:24:52,803 --> 00:24:54,414
The baby hippo.

380
00:24:55,894 --> 00:25:05,788
No, not the not the biggest, fattest person in the room, but the baby hippos or the
whatever the worker bees, maybe the worker bees are what you should be listening to.

381
00:25:05,788 --> 00:25:08,690
Yeah, I, this one is on my list as well.

382
00:25:08,690 --> 00:25:14,894
And I agree with everything Bob said, but I want to put a slightly different spin on this.

383
00:25:15,214 --> 00:25:24,684
So this evoked a feeling of me very similar to the story of the person in the, the, the
arena, right?

384
00:25:24,684 --> 00:25:30,004
So the story of the person actually out there doing the thing.

385
00:25:30,012 --> 00:25:33,892
is living it is trying to do things that others aren't.

386
00:25:33,892 --> 00:25:45,412
But there's a ton of folks that are up in the stands, watching having opinions, talking to
each other about what the person in the arena is doing wrong, and how they would do better

387
00:25:45,412 --> 00:25:46,292
if they were there.

388
00:25:46,292 --> 00:25:49,232
Well, you know what, then get in the freaking arena and make it happen.

389
00:25:49,232 --> 00:25:55,352
But don't sit up on the stands and chirp about somebody's doing something wrong without
actually getting it done.

390
00:25:55,352 --> 00:25:55,652
Right?

391
00:25:55,652 --> 00:25:56,324
This is

392
00:25:56,324 --> 00:26:05,400
is the thing that happens a lot, especially when you're pushing the envelope and trying
things is there will be people that will be on the outside talking about, that's going to

393
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:05,721
fail.

394
00:26:05,721 --> 00:26:06,781
That's going to be a mess.

395
00:26:06,781 --> 00:26:08,012
that's not going to work.

396
00:26:08,012 --> 00:26:09,473
There's no way that's going to happen.

397
00:26:09,473 --> 00:26:10,224
okay, cool.

398
00:26:10,224 --> 00:26:10,784
That's fine.

399
00:26:10,784 --> 00:26:18,079
You're allowed to think that but that's not going to change the thing that we're doing
because we've done everything that Bob just talked about.

400
00:26:18,079 --> 00:26:24,828
There are members of our team that have talked to people doing the work and they have said
if you build this we will we will fork over

401
00:26:24,828 --> 00:26:29,508
so much money because it will change our lives and we are going to be so much happier.

402
00:26:29,508 --> 00:26:33,328
We're going to be able to accomplish more for our customers, which means we can accomplish
more.

403
00:26:33,328 --> 00:26:43,208
That's because we've done the work because we've invested just like Bob said, we have the
confidence and willingness to go left when there's a whole group of people over there

404
00:26:43,208 --> 00:26:44,948
saying, hey, you should go right.

405
00:26:44,948 --> 00:26:49,968
But to Bob's point, they are the ones that are living it and have actually talked to the
people.

406
00:26:50,148 --> 00:26:51,308
So I agree with this.

407
00:26:51,308 --> 00:26:53,108
I get fired up about this.

408
00:26:53,108 --> 00:26:54,728
But yeah, okay.

409
00:26:54,780 --> 00:26:55,750
I'll stop.

410
00:26:55,750 --> 00:26:57,980
what's your, do you have any more Josh?

411
00:26:57,980 --> 00:27:01,480
I have number 17 and I bet you have number 18.

412
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:02,300
Oh, okay.

413
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:03,040
Okay.

414
00:27:03,620 --> 00:27:04,680
Yeah.

415
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:05,980
Yeah.

416
00:27:05,980 --> 00:27:07,640
don't we do it this way?

417
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,028
Why don't I, I was torn, I'll defer 17 and I'll take 18.

418
00:27:12,028 --> 00:27:14,300
talked about number 18 enough, right?

419
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:15,130
We've covered that.

420
00:27:15,130 --> 00:27:25,336
So number 18 for everybody, if you haven't clicked on the link that's in the description,
it's...

421
00:27:25,336 --> 00:27:27,257
17, have fun in your command.

422
00:27:27,257 --> 00:27:29,878
Don't always run at a breakneck pace.

423
00:27:29,878 --> 00:27:31,339
Take a leave when you've earned it.

424
00:27:31,339 --> 00:27:33,200
Spend time with your families.

425
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,703
Corollary, surround yourself with people who take the work seriously, but not themselves.

426
00:27:38,703 --> 00:27:40,884
Those who work hard and play hard.

427
00:27:41,796 --> 00:27:47,798
I love it until that last part, the work hard and play hard is one of those things just
kind of gives me the willies.

428
00:27:47,958 --> 00:27:51,489
I agree with it, that's fine, but I just, that saying drives me crazy.

429
00:27:51,489 --> 00:27:57,000
But this is something that is important to me because I've not always been good at this.

430
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:08,664
This is something that I've had to work really hard at because I have a bit of workaholism
and it's a thing where I just, when things go bad, when life gets tough, my answer is put

431
00:28:08,664 --> 00:28:10,284
my head down and work harder.

432
00:28:10,434 --> 00:28:19,472
And I have not been good enough throughout my career at allowing myself to take a break,
take a pause, refresh and recharge.

433
00:28:19,472 --> 00:28:23,456
My answer has always been work harder, work faster, do all that stuff.

434
00:28:23,456 --> 00:28:25,788
And that has ground me into the ground.

435
00:28:25,788 --> 00:28:30,122
And it has done the same thing for some of my teams and my family at times.

436
00:28:30,122 --> 00:28:37,916
So this is one of those things that is very important to me uh because I have to work
really hard.

437
00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:38,916
to make this happen.

438
00:28:38,916 --> 00:28:41,056
And I've seen what happens when I don't do it.

439
00:28:41,056 --> 00:28:44,696
And I see what happens when I do make it happen.

440
00:28:44,696 --> 00:28:49,616
So it's always at the front of my mind of, hey, slow down, take a step back.

441
00:28:49,616 --> 00:28:51,356
It's gonna be okay.

442
00:28:51,976 --> 00:28:53,396
The work's not going anywhere.

443
00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:54,656
It'll be there tomorrow.

444
00:28:54,656 --> 00:28:56,896
You know, all those things that are out there.

445
00:28:56,896 --> 00:29:01,876
So this is the thing that cuts me deep because I've not always been great at it.

446
00:29:01,876 --> 00:29:04,016
So this is an important one.

447
00:29:04,016 --> 00:29:08,707
that I want to make sure if you made it this far into the podcast that you make sure this
is when you take home with you.

448
00:29:08,707 --> 00:29:14,870
I mean, I don't think, I think very few leaders are inherently good at this right out of
the gate, Josh.

449
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:18,691
I mean, it's, I think it's something that they have to, unfortunately we have to learn.

450
00:29:18,691 --> 00:29:21,432
The thing I want to, it's a little different than your spin.

451
00:29:21,432 --> 00:29:25,392
I just want to drill in on the first sentence.

452
00:29:25,434 --> 00:29:28,435
Have fun in your command.

453
00:29:28,935 --> 00:29:33,797
And so I think one of my superpowers as a leader and don't burst my bubble Josh.

454
00:29:33,797 --> 00:29:38,159
So just let me believe this is a super superpower.

455
00:29:38,971 --> 00:29:41,992
I have a sense of humor.

456
00:29:42,332 --> 00:29:47,273
When the pressure is on, one of my pressure relief is joking.

457
00:29:47,433 --> 00:30:00,817
And I almost become more of a smarty pants and irreverent and just finding the fun in
things and high fiving with folks and trying to de-stress situation.

458
00:30:00,817 --> 00:30:03,237
It's just part of who I am.

459
00:30:03,458 --> 00:30:08,319
And over time, I'm just like, even the toughest job,

460
00:30:08,611 --> 00:30:10,351
Have fun with it.

461
00:30:10,351 --> 00:30:11,951
Just look for the fun.

462
00:30:11,951 --> 00:30:12,991
Create fun.

463
00:30:12,991 --> 00:30:17,251
Maybe if you can't find any, then your job is to create the fun.

464
00:30:17,251 --> 00:30:18,631
Be an observer.

465
00:30:18,931 --> 00:30:22,931
And the fun starts with making fun of yourself.

466
00:30:23,531 --> 00:30:25,091
Making fun of you.

467
00:30:25,091 --> 00:30:27,651
Not taking myself too seriously.

468
00:30:27,851 --> 00:30:34,531
And that's really hard to do when the shit is hitting the fan and the pressure's on or
there's bugs in the field and customers yelling.

469
00:30:34,531 --> 00:30:37,603
But at the same time, that is a...

470
00:30:37,603 --> 00:30:43,583
That is a phase shift that to get things done, that you can de-stress things.

471
00:30:43,583 --> 00:30:46,023
So I don't get flustered with stuff.

472
00:30:46,023 --> 00:30:53,863
If I'm joking, you sometimes people misinterpret me, you know, when the stress is really
up, I sound almost like a clown to some degree.

473
00:30:53,863 --> 00:30:55,583
It's like, do you not care?

474
00:30:55,583 --> 00:30:58,103
And I'm like, I certainly care.

475
00:30:58,543 --> 00:31:01,223
I grabbed the red nose.

476
00:31:02,163 --> 00:31:07,425
So, but in all seriousness, have fun in your command.

477
00:31:07,425 --> 00:31:11,409
MediCasters ask yourself, are you having fun?

478
00:31:11,409 --> 00:31:13,690
Are you creating fun?

479
00:31:14,071 --> 00:31:16,712
Are you the igniter of fun?

480
00:31:16,933 --> 00:31:17,473
Right?

481
00:31:17,473 --> 00:31:21,756
Are you the role model of fun, of joy, of happiness?

482
00:31:21,857 --> 00:31:25,139
And if you want to scale one, where are you?

483
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:29,483
And then think deeply to yourself, how do I lean into more fun?

484
00:31:29,623 --> 00:31:33,066
And it's not just a Bob Galen thing.

485
00:31:33,066 --> 00:31:35,938
I think your results,

486
00:31:35,938 --> 00:31:38,009
your impact will increase.

487
00:31:38,009 --> 00:31:44,431
I've seen so many sour leaders and they get sourer when the pressure's on.

488
00:31:44,792 --> 00:31:45,092
Right?

489
00:31:45,092 --> 00:31:56,757
It's like, you can, you can tell it's like, you know, I want to take them, put them in a
bathroom and just say, in there until you get happier.

490
00:31:56,997 --> 00:32:00,238
You know, come on, relieve yourself.

491
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:01,899
They look awful.

492
00:32:01,899 --> 00:32:03,480
And that's not

493
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,991
And it's not good for them and it's not good for everyone around them.

494
00:32:06,991 --> 00:32:09,236
So really lean into fun.

495
00:32:09,958 --> 00:32:12,992
I don't know how to top that.

496
00:32:12,992 --> 00:32:14,273
I don't need to top that, right?

497
00:32:14,273 --> 00:32:16,015
I think Bob did what Bob does.

498
00:32:16,015 --> 00:32:17,336
Bob nailed it.

499
00:32:18,918 --> 00:32:21,030
I think the fork has been stuck.

500
00:32:21,698 --> 00:32:27,276
And Medicare is a final final forkage is that command is lonely thing.

501
00:32:27,276 --> 00:32:38,798
Go back and review some of our older episodes when we done have talked about that because
it is a thing and it's a real thing and it's central to your leadership.

502
00:32:38,798 --> 00:32:42,443
And the better you are at it, the more lonely it is.

503
00:32:43,509 --> 00:32:45,081
Amen brother, right?

504
00:32:45,081 --> 00:32:45,782
So it's hard.

505
00:32:45,782 --> 00:32:47,514
It's a real challenge and it's a personal challenge.

506
00:32:47,514 --> 00:32:49,496
It's not so much an outside challenges.

507
00:32:49,496 --> 00:32:52,559
It's an inside out challenge for you.

508
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:54,702
And it's one that you have to come to grips with.

509
00:32:54,702 --> 00:33:02,089
with that, hope Colin Powell, let's have a moment of silence for the great general and
statesman, Colin Powell.

510
00:33:02,089 --> 00:33:03,350
Five seconds.

511
00:33:03,591 --> 00:33:04,493
He was a great man.

512
00:33:04,493 --> 00:33:07,641
All right, Metacasters, from beautiful downtown Cary, North Carolina.

513
00:33:07,641 --> 00:33:11,343
know, I feel bad because I couldn't do that without a smile on my face.

514
00:33:11,343 --> 00:33:13,104
We're trying to honor somebody.

515
00:33:13,104 --> 00:33:16,526
I could just, just because we go back to the fun of Bob, right?

516
00:33:16,526 --> 00:33:17,567
The fun of Bob.

517
00:33:17,567 --> 00:33:19,377
I'm sitting there and like, what a jerk I am.

518
00:33:19,377 --> 00:33:21,098
I'm trying to, trying to be quiet.

519
00:33:21,098 --> 00:33:22,209
got a smirk on my face.

520
00:33:22,209 --> 00:33:24,430
Cause I'm laughing about Bob in my brain.

521
00:33:24,430 --> 00:33:27,112
Oh my gosh.

522
00:33:27,112 --> 00:33:27,592
Okay.

523
00:33:27,592 --> 00:33:28,432
So yes.

524
00:33:28,432 --> 00:33:28,813
Okay.

525
00:33:28,813 --> 00:33:29,913
So from

526
00:33:30,102 --> 00:33:32,887
So, so for beautiful down that carry North Carolina.

527
00:33:32,887 --> 00:33:36,031
And for beautiful downtown Fuqua Verena, North Carolina.

528
00:33:36,031 --> 00:33:39,588
I'm Bob the Hitman Galen.

529
00:33:39,703 --> 00:33:43,761
And I'm Josh the anvil Anderson.

530
00:33:44,865 --> 00:33:45,425
Fake.

531
00:33:45,425 --> 00:33:49,394
Oh, gosh.