Just before we start, I want to give a quick, gentle content note. In this episode, we briefly mention suicide. If that feels like something that might be difficult for you today, please feel free to pause, skip, or come back to it when you're ready. And I am in Christmas PJ's in March, but who cares? Let's get on with the show. hello everyone and welcome back to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today we're talking about something that affects a huge number of dogs, often quietly and often earlier than most people realize, and that is arthritis. Many guardians think arthritis is simply a problem for older dogs, but the reality is, it can begin much earlier and the signs can sometimes be subtle. Joining me today is Hannah Capon, founder of Canine Arthritis Management, also known as CAM hannah is a veterinary professional who has dedicated her work to helping guardians. And professionals better understand, identify, and support dogs living with arthritis. We are going to explore what arthritis actually is, how to spot the early signs, and most importantly, what guardians can do to help their dogs live comfortable, happy lives. If you share your life with a dog, especially a dog who seems to be slowing down, this is a conversation you don't want to miss. So grab a cup of tea, settle in. And let's get started. Hannah Capon, welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. How are you doing?

Very good. I'm in the snow. I'm up in north of Toronto by about two, three hours. Just having a little bit of a pain excursion

Yeah, we were talking off air. Canada's on my list. My, I had an uncle lived in Vancouver, but, and I want to do the Rocky Martine, free Banff. It looks amazing.

that's. That's lovely. But yeah, Canada's a big place and

It.

very lucky to Yeah, well I've got, I've got friends from all over the world that are really fascinated in chronic pain and they've got like a huge passion for it. So I'm on a little bit of a painter. I'm trying to see if Netflix would like me to just do a little documentary about it. I think that'd be really important. I, I think they, of viewers. I'm joking, but if anybody from Netflix is listening and they think, what a fantastic idea, get in touch.

Yeah, we're we're plug, we'll plug that a bit and we'll put all your links so they can get, get in touch with you. Han Hannah, for anyone meeting you for the first time, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do please?

So I'm a vet. I am a proud first opinion practitioner. I've been qualified now for 24 years. I've worked around the place. I am a bit of a rolling stone, so I've worked in big practices, small practices. I've done emergency work, I've done so charge. I got interested in chronic pain and arthritis around about 2013 I realized that it just didn't stack up in practice. We were very good at some areas of veterinary medicine, but we seem to be really neglectful in others. it felt very contradictory to be performing preventative medicine. So fleas, worms, vaccines, tering, all this. we seemed to be not able to really do much for chronic pain, specifically arthritis. So I got a little bit intrigued and did a. Of further studying, not just through veterinary boards, but also through the allied professionals. And I think that's made me a really strong believer about that team approach. 'cause I've learned some of the things that have changed my life most from people that aren't vets.

Mm.

So I did a lot of further studying and then decided to set up something called Canine Arthritis Management, which, the aims to provide. Not just education and teaching and UpToDate current advice, but also empathy and support like psychosocial support to involved in the chronic pain sector. Be you a vet, be you an allied professional, be you a caregiver, my ambitions with it is to create a kind of peripatetic service that supports vets around the world, knowing that they just don't have the time in clinic to offer all that is needed to actually really create good care plans.

Yeah. Fascinating. I love that. And when you say Allo professionals, just so our viewers and listeners, that's like your dog trainers, behaviorists, and other sort of people you mean?

so. When you, when you think about it. So, there's about 24,000 practicing vets in the uk

Wow.

when you look at how many other professionals that are involved and networked with us, as you say, behaviorist, physiotherapists, hydrotherapist, massage therapists, dog trainers, pet sitters, kennel owners, pet shop owners, guys swamp us.

Yeah.

a hundred old. And I think we forget how important you are in that kind of whole ecosystem about that caregiver and that dog, or that cat or that donkey, that horse, whatever. And so I'm a really strong believer that the allied professionals need to have more floor space, more air space.

And I'd love, it's a, a collaborative approach, isn't it, as well, and if you are all on the same page, it's what's gonna be better for the animal I.

Yeah. And that's, and that's the, the ambition. I think sadly humans have personalities and they have their own agendas and they have their own experiences and future ambitions. So working in a team can actually really challenging, but I think that's what we should be trying to do.

Definitely. Was there anything that kind of sparked your passion for canine arthritis and pain management? Hannah.

Having that moment where you realized you'd seen thousands and thousands of animals suffering and you had just not really connected how they were suffering. I think I. Arthritis was the, the spark for me. And it is very frequent that you see an animal come in and they look stiff. I like, I, I hate that word. Oh, he's really stiff. I'm like, well, that probably means that he's painful. And of these. Patients haven't actually had attention to that concern for months, if not years. Oh, he's just getting old. He's just getting stiff. And then when you think about that lived experience for that animal in our world and they can't do anything to change it, they're living in our. they're being handled in our way. They're doing the tasks that we ask them to do, all the whilst living with discomfort. It just, it just triggered me and I thought, right, supposedly really care about our companion angles. We supposedly have their best interest at heart, but we seem to be really failing to listen to them and their needs. So that's what triggered it. And then it just, it snowballed. It's gone outta control if we're really honest.

I love it because like people I speak to, like I've had a, a physio with my dog and she knows all about you. So the message is, spreading and everyone you speak to knows about a cab and can. So,

english job that just can't shut up about it. Yes, that's me.

is the best way. Was there a particular like dog or moment that then led to the creation of CAM in Canine arthritis management?

Holly, my dog certainly was a flagship and a very lived experience. But actually no, it was a person. I, this is gonna trigger a few people, so apologies if anybody has problems with the topic of suicide. was working with a vet nurse. There was me Dion, the vet nurse, and my mate Nikki, and we, we were a trio. We had such a laugh at work, but Dion had a condition that left her with Dysesthesia, which means that her. Her somatosensory system. So her, her sensations from her skin were being misinterpreted by her brain as pain, so touch, temperature, anything like that. She often felt that her skin was on fire. The worst place is be her face, her chest, her forearms, and worked with her for a good year and a half, and then found she, she committed, she took her own life, so she

Oh

suicide.

my. Oh my goodness.

she had stolen tel from work. But the real crux of the story is that she stole it six months before she did it because we could trace batch numbers. So for me, it was quite a profound moment to know that the person that I, I loved Bits worked with, we had such a good time at work the back of her mind. She was always suffering. And I think that's why I feel a huge. A huge care towards that. Our animals are having lived experiences that we could never really understand, but depression, anxiety, fear, but they're in a home and they're getting fed and they go for walks. So people go, oh, they're having a great time, but are they, so yes, that was, that was the real spark for me was,

Oh

God.

wow.

Yeah.

What a journey and a, a legacy that she's left as well,

yeah. Yeah. And I learned a lot from her 'cause she'd come to work and she wouldn't demonstrate pain. And so you, you were hearing that she'd spent the evening, semi naked in a dark room, unable to drink or eat because her face felt like it was burning. So if she moved her cheeks, it felt like it was burning. She couldn't purse her lips together because it felt like it was burning.

Oh my.

come to work and work and she'd do an anesthetics when she had, handle, do animals. And I was, but that's because the brain is where pain is. And distraction and pleasure and all of these other things that the brain was processing whilst at work would actually eliminate the, the impact of pain, that overwhelming experience. But when she was on her own and left her own thoughts, that's when her pain worse. And I think my complete lack of understanding about pain when I was with her and then she took her life and I was like. don't know enough about this. So, yeah, that's one of like the major, major triggers.

Gosh. Oh, bless. I, I didn't.

that.

I didn't add. Yeah. It's not often. I'm lost for words, but, wow. Gosh, what a, that's, yeah. I'm just what I like.

You realize what, what a responsibility we have.

Yeah. Yeah.

our that we need to, we need to tune into their experience.

Mm.

And I think, also sad as the story is, it gave me so much hope that there's so many more things that we can do. At that point, my understanding of pain was give them a nonsteroidal, see them again in three weeks and look where it's driven me. So, yeah, it was, it was a horrendous time. But also it's definitely carved a new direction.

Yeah, that's, that's inspirational. And what a journey you've been on to where you are now. Would you say that, what was the biggest gap you noticed in how arthritis was being misunderstood and mismanaged and stuff?

I think the biggest gap is people not seeing the, the signs, the early signs, but they're not really early. When you get it, you get it and you go. That's late. But the change in gait, the change in behavior, these sorts of things are very visible. People say dogs hide pain. I, I'm not a big believer of that. I think I think we are not very good at actually picking up on it. have been domesticated for 33,000 years, come on. Are they still gonna be hiding pain or could we argue that? Actually, suggest that we are not very good at picking up on it before we assume that they're hiding it from us. But I think that's a big, a big knowledge gap. I think that was a big awareness gap. There's still massive problems with diagnosis because the hu our current approach is finding a pathology that explains the pain. But we definitely know in the human sector there's a lot of primary pain conditions where there's no pathology to explain it. So there isn't arthritis. There isn't a vertebral anomaly. There isn't a splenic tumor, but people experience pain. I think we've got a huge. Un unpacking to do there, and that's a huge growth sector. Then management, we have got quite a cool toolbox to manage chronic pain. It's still very, what we'd call biomedical. So it's very much about drugs and tools and interventions, whereas we know from the human management of pain, it's very much about lifestyle. It's very much about your emotional state. It's very much about being active. So there's a, there's a lot still to be done. But the growth in the sector is huge. It's a lot, a lot of interest in it now, whereas there wasn't 15 years ago.

Wow. Brilliant. Let's start then with the basics, Hannah. What. What exactly is arthritis?

Okay, so arthritis is a localized inflammatory condition of the joints, and there's different forms of arthritis. So you can have immune mediated, you can have septic, and you can have osteoarthritis. They're like the three biggies. What we are gonna be talking about is osteoarthritis. So it's a localized inflammatory degenerative condition. it's extremely prevalent, so it's very prevalent in all species. They've even. I've got evidence of arthritis in the dinosaurs. It's a disease that affects what's called articulating joints and moving joints. We tend to concentrate on the ones that are cartilage laden joints. So we're talking about our knees, our hips our wrists, our elbows, shoulders, et cetera. And it's a disease that is really associated with pain. 'cause if you didn't actually have the pain of arthritis, it wouldn't be so much of a problem the pain. You get restricted range of motion of the joints, so it changes the way that you function. but it's really the pain of arthritis, which is the big clinical sign.

Okay. Why is it much more common in dogs than men? Guardians actually realize,

So there's a number of reasons that we believe one goes back to awareness. I think there hasn't been the awareness that is now. Very prevalent. We've got behaviorists that are saying check. It's not pain until, before we assume

yeah. Yeah.

we've got really big strides in awareness of how dogs and cats express pain. But we've also got in dogs specifically our choice of breeds. We've got. A really big social drive towards breeds that don't necessarily have great innate health. they are predisposed to conditions that lead to early onset arthritis, hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia, patella relaxation, osteo osis, angular limb deformities. of these are. Genetically influenced. So they do get, tend to be passed down in lines and through breeds. Certain breeds are more common and therefore our social choices are affecting prevalence. So there's a lot of breeds. Oh, and obesity. We've got, got a horrendous obesity epidemic. About 51% of the canine population are obese,

Oh my.

and that's a huge driver of joint related issues.

Mm. I just wanted to pick up on something 'cause I've always sort of like, I dunno in my train, but led to believe that a dog does mask pain. But did you say that they, they're not very good at hiding pain. It's the fact that we miss the subtle signs and we are not listening to them. Is that what you said?

So let's take it, let's take out whether they're good or bad as it, let's just look at it from the human angle. We've had them domesticated. years. So evolutionary wise, why would they want to hide pain from us that just plant that little bit of seed? it is not to their advantage to hide pain from us, their caregivers.

Hmm.

I think that. what I know now, is actually really quite obvious when you take onboard posture change, physical change capability, and gait changes and behavior changes. So for me, I feel it's more likely that we are not very good at detecting it. I think it's not that they're hiding it, I think that they're just getting on with it. Which is a very different thing. Hiding is a conscious decision of I must not give you any hint that I'm in pain because that will put me at a disadvantage. and getting on with it is, I don't believe I've got a choice, so I'm just gonna carry on navigating living to the best of my ability. So I don't like the word. Hide. I don't really like the word cope because cope's got a positive intuition to it. It's got, oh, he coped really well with that. Cope is actually positive and negative, but in the human language we tend to use it in a positive manner. So I tend to use the word of tolerate of dogs tolerate pain they don't know that there's an alternative and they're just trying to get on with living.

mm

Um.

Yeah, I love that.

It's my opinion and I'm gonna stick with it.

I think my mind's buzzing. Now this is probably gonna be dependent on the breed, but is there an age that arthritis can be begin to develop in our canine companions?

Yeah, so has been always attached to a wear and tear condition. So it It's generally been linked to aging. And. That really shows in the figures. So we know that around about 50% of dogs aren't detected to have OA until they're around about eight to 10 years old. So. It has got that connotation. 'cause that's what we see in humans. Arthritis is much more wear and tear related, but in dogs, because the leading driver is developmental joint disease. So these are joints that aren't a perfect fit. Arthritis is actually a disease of the young dog. So this is going to be dogs that are developing. So arthritis, you can be seeing it as young as 3, 4, 5 months old. It's not an old dog disease. I.

Oh, it's, it's always just been like, I guess like compared to, to older dogs. Like, do you know what I mean? But like it, I'm just thinking from a human perspective. Like my great nan had it really bad and now my Nan's got it. But then I know someone that's in his thirties that's got it. So yeah, it's not, it's not necessarily older dogs. So older people.

No, no, not at all. And they did a study over at NC State, which is a university over in North Carolina. And it was a very simple study. All studies are expensive, so you got, remember this any study of this caliber is gonna have cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. But it was very simple in that they had, the veterinary school used their primary care clinic, which was attached to the hospital. And they invited people of dogs that were aged between eight months and four years old come for free physical health assessment. So all they needed to do was be to be between eight months and four years old, they got 123 volunteered, they would get a three physical assessment, including an orthopedic exam, followed by x-rays of every joint. So when you think about X-raying two views of every joint, that's a hell of a lot of x-rays per dog. So we're talking about wrist, elbows, shoulder, hips, stifles hawks, two views of each times that by 123. So that's why it was still quite an expensive study

Mm.

and what they wanted to look at is. What percentage of those dogs actually had radiographic signs of early onset arthritis and how many of them also had pain associated? 'cause you can have radiographic signs of arthritis and no pain, and you can have pain with no radiographic signs. And what they found is that of that cohort and 40% already had radiographic signs in at least one joint. So eight months to boys old. And 24% of them had pain associated with a radiographically affected joint. So yeah, it's it's a much bigger problem than people realize. Mm-hmm.

I am one of the staffies that I walk. He's been diagnosed with it in his elbows but he's gone to like a OA specialist. That specialist there. And they said that he had to lose weight first before they would look to, to do treatment and stuff. 'cause he was a big old bulky boy.

Yeah. And this is the thing is that there's so much that we can do about it, and then probably the, the, the biggest, the biggest thing that we can do keeping our dogs lean from puppyhood throughout life

Mm.

It's it's very socially awkward because like you've just done, don't take offense, but you're like, oh, he was just choppy. And there's the little smile and you make light of it, but actually you're killing

I and I.

And, and of us, and this is what I mean, this interdisciplinary team, it doesn't matter if you're a pet poner or a vet or a dog walker. It's not funny anymore.

Mm.

not funny. And if we all work together to say, your dog's carrying a bit too much weight. The taboo goes and it's not socially awkward and people don't get defensive and start assuming you're fat shaming because we know that the health concerns that come from being overweight, I'm, it's not just joints. We're talking about their other physical health, immune health, cardiovascular health, endocrine health. Psycho health. We know that dogs that carry weight have a more pessimistic outlook on life. know, it's, it's, and it's really weird we've got so much data, but we are not making any headways getting worse. getting worse. And then you walk into a pet shop, or all the pet shop owners that listen to your podcast are now gonna hate me. But I'm, I, I'm, I'm not bothered because it needs to be said. You go into a pet shop. And it's just nothing but treats and high fats and inappropriate and what? What are we doing? Come on guys. You know what you should be doing is going in and immediately being hit with a body condition score shot of where are you at and how can we help you get to where you need to be? sausages and all of their stuff drives me mad. Drives me mad. 'cause we say that we love them.

But

are making the biggest hiccup from day one.

yeah, 'cause oh, if you'd loved them, you wouldn't give 'em all the crap, would you? And you'd want them to be healthy 'cause it's gonna prolong their life.

Yeah. Massively. And we've got strong data to support that. are not just talking a couple of weeks or a couple of months. We are talking two years.

Yeah.

know, so they did a study and they were looking at like about 40,000 dogs. It was a big study and specifically in Dins, if they were kept at a lean body weight, they lived like two and a half years, longer

Wow. And in a dog's life, that's a long time really.

time. Like I hope that I'll make it to maybe 80. So, that's like another 20 years. That's crazy, isn't it?

Oh right. The early signs that us guardians then, or those guardians listening or watching might often miss. So are there some subtle signs that of arthritis that might be overlooked by guardians?

I think this is where the behavior world is really taking, taking hold, and this is great. so we've got to start looking at. What are, what are expected kind of behaviors that you can logically link? And the, the big one is fear and anxiety, isn't it? If you are experiencing pain, pain tells you something's wrong. You need to have an emotional response. That's quite a motivating emotional response. So it's gonna drive you to do something about your pain. it is gonna have to be a strong emotion. So fear is a very strong emotion. So. Looking at those kind of like behavioral changes would be a really good place to start. But many, many behaviors, like I'm learning, I'm learning from my behavior, friends of like resource guarding. I was like, how does that work? How do we explain that? Obviously we've got our reversive behaviors of don't pick me up like that. Don't touch me like that. Don't ask me to do that. I never really thought about appeasement. Please don't touch me. Oh, what are you doing? Oh, I'll come up to you and see you. Do you tell me what to do, but don't touch me there. I learned, I learned a lot from my behavior friends, like, 'cause I'm not trained in that at all. So going back to your point, I think behavior changes in behavior. We've got some behaviors that are really strongly associated, the fears, the anxieties, the aversion, but there are other behaviors that you go, how does that stack up? But something has changed and it's not right. So what's underpinning, what medical complaint could be underpinning that change? Postural changes. I think we're all waiting for a limp. waiting for that really over lameness. But it could be that they're beginning to sit differently. They're beginning to lay differently. They're, they're slower and more thoughtful in transitioning from a lay to a stand, they're hesitant. So it's not that they can't do the stairs, they might think before they do the stairs or they might re reposition before they get on the couch. So there's loads and loads of stuff.

Hmm.

we could be using to identify signs earlier.

Yeah. And I only realized recently, or learned recently that if a dog when a dog goes to go for a poo and they squat, if they move around a lot, that could be a signal or a sign that they could be in pain. If they're not staying in one spot and they're moving and.

Yeah. Yeah. So quite often you can't put anything. As it's definitely made. So that could be in a itchy bum hole. It could be that he's got really stiff stools and he is really struggling to pass. But if you had a dog that always toileted in one place, but now they were doing what's called the poo poo train, so they seemed to like trip a bit and move a bit, drop a bit. If they looked like the ears were back and they, they looked like they were having a difficult time and you had other things associated. So some physical changes, the way that they squatted was a different posture. They were very front end leaning. Go, oh, oh, oh, hmm, there's something going on here. And then we would like to think that you can go to the vet and get their opinion that you can get a full clinical assessment and see what's going on.

That he referred it to as a PP train. I've not heard of that one before.

no, the poo train. Oh, yes.

So could behavioral changes be linked in pain? So for example, reluctance to go for a walk, changes in mood or difficulty settling, could that be related to arthritis?

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. When I started my journey, and I'm still very much at the beginning of my learning journey, I hung out and I still have friends with Gwen Covey Crump, who's a most beautiful soul, and I can remember listening to her and reading her articles, and she was always pushing this concept of, if you see an unexpected change. Check if there's something underpinning it. And that could be a physical change, that could be a behavior change, that could be a capability change. check now, this is where it gets difficult because with age comes change anyway. you are always changing, influenced by the environment. If you move house, you're gonna change. If you go to a new doggy daycare, you're gonna change. unpicking whether that change is medically relevant. really difficult and that's why it's a bit like detective work. You get a little bit of information from this. You've got the personality change, you've got some physical change, you've got some capability change. Oh, actually now I've got enough I need to check whether there's something else underpinning this. So yeah, it's, it's hard. Chronic pain work is very, very difficult.

Mm.

lot reliant on communication and building a good rapport with your client

Okay.

that. That information is then how you work out whether your intervention's working. So spending time working out what the subtle signs that suggest they're in pain are. Hang on to them because they're what you're going to use to see whether your choice of intervention is working of.

Mm. Yeah. Brilliant. Are there any myths around arthritis that you'd love to clear up? Once and for all?

Well, we tackled one of them about it being old dog disease. It's not. So, please, guys, don't just look at a three-year-old dog and say, well, it can't be anything to do with his joints. the, the floor is open there. Joints need to be considered in all stages of a dog's life. I don't know the could, are there any real myths? Well, there's so many. So, like, he'd, he'd, he'd he'd tell me if it hurts.

Oh God. Yeah.

if, if, if you're, if you're looking for him to go, hi, oh, oh, oh, oh, I'm not gonna eat my dinner, or I'm gonna really, they do tell us that it hurts, but we have to go and look for it. I think that's another one. there's a strong push towards using. Non-pharmaceutical early because they want to save it for later. I think that's a real problem. I think we need to build a greater rapport all disciplines to say, well, when you've got pain, the most important thing is to get rid of the pain and let's use whatever means is possible to reduce that pain as quickly as possible. Be that pharmaceutical, be that surgery, be that rehab, be that nutrition. There's a. A people go, well, I don't want to use meds until I really have to. And you're like,

Yeah.

whose benefit?

Mm.

That's the lived experience. God, there's so many. Nathan, I could be here afternoon.

That's fine. Right. Let's move on to the emotional impact on our lovely doggies. So living with pain can affect how a dog experiences the world, but how does it then influence their behavior and wellbeing?

So let's think about what pain is. And then I think it unpacks itself. So pain is a emotional and like physical physiological experience. So it's called the pain phenomenon because have an emotional interpretation, you have a cognitive interpretation, but you also have a physical and physical stress response, physiological, physical. So pain is a really. Massive impact on your body and brain. And pain is generally linked to there being something wrong. pain is a messenger. So pain is actually a good guy because he's telling you that something's not right and you need to do something about it. and it's a very loud messenger because. He's trying to tell us something really is not right and I need you to do something about it. So pain actually keeps you from harm. It helps you protect yourself to heal, and it means that you learn from it so you don't do whatever endangered you again. So it is a massive evolutionary advantage to have pain. If you don't have pain, you are likely to not survive. You won't know when something's not working in your body. You won't know when you've traumatized yourself. You won't know when you've suddenly got a septic wound, so therefore you're not likely to survive. So pain is really important,

Mm.

but uncontrolled pain, I. Is the problem, isn't it? Pain as an alert signal is really important, but having pain that is persistent in nature no longer serves purpose is potentially amplifying. That's a, that's a real problem. when you think about pain being this loud, loud messenger, we've got to think about what kind of impact is that gonna have? gonna have a great emotional impact, isn't it? 'cause it's really telling you to do something and that's going to lead to being. Quite wound up quite highly aroused, quite vulnerable, but anxious, but stressed and fearful defensive. So all of those kind of emotional states make sense. When you think about what pain is imagine living in those emotional states, always being defensive, always feeling vulnerable, always being fearful. That's not a person that I wanna be, and I've, I've tried it. I did a social experiment on myself. I sat in a car. A couple of my friends had been diagnosed with anxiety, and I was like, what's this about then? So I decided to drive for 20 minutes and imagine the worst case scenario as I was driving down a motorway, oh, that car's gonna hit me. Oh God, I think it's gonna suddenly break. Oh, because something's gonna run out in front of me. And I was like. I don't wanna live like this. This is horrendous. And therefore, I think I have a quite, quite a good way of making myself feel what it must be like to live with pain, always being alert, aroused, vulnerable, defensive, fearful. So that's like the emotional impact that can come with living with pain.

Yeah, so you mentioned like anxiety. So would you say that chronic pain can contribute to anxiety and then reactivity? I.

behavior friends and my clinical behavior friends would be able to talk about the, the pathways and, the, the limbic system and the amygdala and all, bring Daniel shore in

Oh

be able to fill the

yeah, he is been on. Yeah. Yeah.

yeah. I can't do that. I, I, I look at it and I go try and remember it. I can't remember it, but yes, they're, they're highly associated.

Yeah. Dan's been on and I expect that we had Jess HIEs on the other day. I, he, he knew Wow. Was as well.

friend. Yeah, was of at first. I was absolutely terrified, but we're quite good friends now.

I know she said she loves you. Yeah. Brilliant. I love it. Right, so why is understanding pain so important for behavior professionals as well as guardians?

Because pain is a really good indicator that there's something wrong. So that's our opportunity to identify these cases and then be able to make their life a life worth living, also by. Modulating their emotions and their experiences, we can influence their pain. So we know, for example, let me give you a good example. am driving to work and it is raining and my car breaks down, and as I walk into work, I stub my toe. My pain experience is probably gonna be quite. But if I'm driving to work, the sun's down, I've got a really great, ruthless car, whatever they're called. I stop off and I get a lottery ticket and I win 250,000 and I walk in and I stub my toe. Probably gonna be that bothered. our pain experience is very much affected by our emotional state at that time.

Mm.

if we can work on improving the emotional state, we can influence the pain. So they're really highly interconnected.

Yeah. Brilliant. Love that. So, supporting these lovely dogs with arthritis, if it's been identified that they've got it. Where should guardians begin?

So this is really, it is tricky. In an ideal world, we would like the following flow diagram to happen. So the caregiver, the guardian, that there's something wrong. Then they take that information in a very, very easily interpretable manner to the vet who's got 15 minutes back-to-back consults. Really busy practice, and they go, all right. So you've noticed that your dog's changed. They've become quite aversive to being handled. You've seen that they've got quite an arched back. You've seen them lame a couple of times, right? I hear what you're saying. I'm going to go and have a look. So first part of the journey doesn't always work. you've got to have a practitioner that, dare I say, has got. The capacity at that time to pick up on what can be a bit more subtle, then what would be ideal is that we pursue a diagnosis to the best of our ability. So if there was a suspicion that there was, say, painful hips, it would be lovely to take the next step of doing a sedation, x-rays, confirmed findings, et cetera. And then from there, it'd be lovely for the vet to say this is what's called a multimodal approach. So your dog needs to trim down. Here's an anti-inflammatory. Here's Omega-3 supplement. I'd like you to see my colleague who's a physiotherapist for some, functional work to try and improve resilience. Functional capacity. Brilliant. We're all connected. We're all gonna keep working together. Your reversive behavior that you've been seeing, popping and seeing my behavior friend, they'll give you some tips of how we can actually make sure that that dog. Extinguishes those associations and starts with a more positive mindset. That's what we'd love to happen. Unfortunately doesn't, and there's many, many stumbling blocks. Quite often a caregiver will come to the vet and go, something wrong. You like, okay, It's just something not right. You're like, okay, where do I start?

Or they say they're just lame. The lame gets thrown around, doesn't it?

Yeah. Lateness gets thrown around a lot and, I think what I'm trying to get across is please collect data, right? Because say you went in and said, my dog's intermittently lame, but when you walk in, that dog's not lame at all and he's bright. It's a button because he's highly aroused that vet's going right. Ideally. We should do x-rays, but that's gonna be about six, 700 quid. And ideally, I should put this dog on an anti-inflammatory that's gonna be 80 to 120 pounds a month, it could cause a bit of diarrhea. They're not convinced that their dog's in pain. I can't see that their dog's in pain. I don't wanna do that because I'm gonna destabilize my relationship with that ve uh, with that caregiver if they don't really believe there's a problem and that dog then gets a little bit diarrhea and they've paid 150 quid to get that, they're not gonna like me. So that's just one mini scenario of many things that are happening in Yvette's brain in the context of that 15 minute small room of experience. So go with good information.

Definitely. Are there any simple changes that guardians can make at home to help their dog feel more comfortable?

Yeah, I'm, I'm known for more rugs, less drugs. I'm, I'm just, when you see it,

more bugs, less drugs, less.

drugs. Yeah. It started years ago when I was doing my mobile service and I was going to people's houses and their dogs were physically debilitated and I was thinking. They can't walk across that floor, can't you see that? Their ears go back, they tense up, they stiff, they don't want to go there, they slip. And I was like, this is crazy. Why aren't, why aren't we seeing this? I've, it first started off for dogs that were debilitated, but now I'm across the board. Even if they haven't got musculoskeletal health problems, they're spending 95% of their life in a house. With slippery floors and they run to the front door and the postman and they slide. If they run into the kitchen for fin time, they slide. I'm thinking, how many soft tissue injuries are we seeing that are actually occurring in the home environment? So for me, just have a really big thing about flooring. They're not designed for pets. They're designed for us to keep them clean. It's not in the animal's interest. They prefer carpet.

Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Comfy carpet or rug.

Yeah, they just want grip. They want traction.

Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't wanna walk across the hard floor all the time. Would you maybe say, why should they?

feet aren't designed. They, they're designed for external terrain, so the pads aren't offering any grip. They, they become hyper keratinized and shiny. The claws can't engage with a hard floor.

Hmm.

got breeds that have lots and lots of fur between the pads that quite often overly the pad. So you actually really look at dogs', feet, they're not like cats. Cats have a little bit more of stick. The pads are different. Dogs aren't designed to engage with the terrain in the house that we put them on.

Hmm. Yeah. Well, and just obviously like from our perspective, we, we, it's probably like a cosmetic thing, isn't it? But we need to be setting them up for success, so.

Yeah, exactly.

More bugs exercise, movement and lifestyle. So many gardens worry about exercise and dogs with arthritis, but how should movement be approached? Tanana.

So we know that mobility is absolutely essential for life. So all of our physiological systems rely on movement. Our cardiovascular, our lymphatic system, our gastrointestinal system, we are designed to move and many of the health concerns that we have for even psychological are related to sedentary behaviors. So we know movement is really, really important, and movement in ill health is equally important. It just has to be modulated to our capacity. So with these dogs that have arthritis, and bear in mind, you can have very mildly affected and they're still. Flyball you can have them very, very severely affected and they can hardly stand. So arthritis is a big spectrum, but we're keeping them moving to the best of our ability is really, really important. the way that I tend to advise clients. bit different and sometimes it's a bit too much for people, but I'm a strong believer that I give my clients the tools to make the right decisions. I talk about being proactive, reactive, and reflective. Little and often is a bit too vague 'cause people don't know what that means. But

Okay.

I mean by the PRR means. Look at your dog and think about what can they safely do So proactively think about what would be the right exercise, the right duration, frequency, terrain activity. Are they in a good position to do that safely? Then when you are doing your exercise, you might have got it wrong. They might be having a bad day. So look at what they're saying to you. So if they're slowing down, if their tail drops, if their ears go back, if they start lagging behind. That's time to go home. know, you are risking making them more painful. Their tissues are fatiguing. And then be reflective when you're at home, go, oh, do you know what? Today we did only 20 minutes. Normally we do 30. Okay. For the next few days we're gonna stick to 20. Let's see if we perks up out of this. So we need to put away our phones. need to. Walk our dogs and be with our dogs. That's why we do it, isn't it? That's why we have dogs is to have their companionship.

Yeah.

we need to be thinking, what, what are we gonna do today? How are you coping with today? Did you enjoy today?

Mm.

that information to carve out that that exercise plan that suits them.

Brilliant. Yeah. And is there any types of activity, exercise that are helpful? So I'm assuming like physio, Hydra.

Yeah, they're definitely helpful. But I do also know that we're in an economic crisis. Many people have pets and can't afford those type of interventions. mean that you still can't do amazing stuff with your dogs. So we are looking at low impacts. Less torsional forces. So what we mean by that is think of a joint. If you're coming down from a, a high up there and bang, that's effectively what's happening in that joint and that's gonna aggravate it. Or twisting, that's gonna really aggravate the joint. you've gotta think about all the tissues around the joint as well. So joint doesn't sit on its own. It's got the joint capsule, it's got ligaments, it's got muscles that bridge over the joint. All of them are gonna be affected by these high impact, high torsional forces. So trying to veer away from that kind of activity and doing more, uh. More kind of kind movements and pushing on functional movements. So bending, stretching, different terrain, what we call different proprioceptive input. So different challenges but are safe looking at trying to improve on the resilience. So the amount that they can do. So I would be steering clear of ball throwing,

Yeah.

a ball loving dog, I would take the ball 'cause it gives 'em pleasure and I'd hide it. And ask them to go find it.

Mm,

that sort of thing.

ball fair? Is there a bit of a contentious issue, aren't they?

I have had hate now because I'm outlandish enough to say that I think it's inappropriate. For me, it's no different to putting heroin for sale for kids. We know that dogs have an extremely compulsive type. Demeanor. I've got a border collie. She would run to death to chase balls. She would just has no off switch. If you get a ball out, I'd lose her, her eyes just go

So just takes over him.

Just gone. And I don't think we realize how powerful that is. Now. There's many people that use it very successfully, sporting and for working dogs. And I'm not saying you don't if that, if that's your thing, but be mindful that in when they're like that, they're gonna push past physical. Capacity. And if they're not physically capable of doing that kind of activity, they, they could push themselves over. And I, I've, I've got a problem with it with young dogs got a problem with old dogs I don't think people realize what a weapon it is. It's not, it's not a bad thing if you know what you are doing,

Yeah.

I don't think that it's marketed with people realizing how damaging they can be.

And it's that repetitive repetitiveness isn't it, as well, and that and that impact it can have on like the joints.

Oh yeah. also the fact that humans are getting lazier and we're going to the park and we're getting out the pool chucker, and we don't wanna do the activity. We don't even wanna bend down anymore.

Well,

want to use a blue chucker to pick it up at

what you s.

we're gonna,

See is they've just sat there and it's on repeat. Sat there on a, on a chair, and there's this bull friend. The dog's just going bloody nuts back and forth.

Yeah, and I, I feel bad 'cause there's gonna be people that are, are gonna be. Triggered by that. But just before getting defensive, before lashing back, just taking time to think about it. I used to throw bulls, used to throw bulls all the

Yeah.

until I really thought about it and thought, crikey. And I, I contributed to my dog, Holly, the flagship of Cam. to her ill health. I didn't know better. But when you think about it, you're like, God, it makes a lot of sense. And that one person said to me years ago, you have a dog to be your companion. Why would you keep making it run far away from you? And I was like, that's a pretty good point.

Is there anything other than bull froze that guardians should avoid at all?

Difficult. It's really difficult 'cause it, it really is on the guardian and what you're doing with the dog and whether you're doing it safely. I think, I think biggest thing is take time think about what you're doing and does it make sense for your dog and your dog's capacity? 'cause anything. Being done inappropriately and repetitive repetitively could be, could be harmful. But let's go back to weights. Let's just make this one about weights. Seriously, guys, you put your hands in for those treats. Look at your dog. Look at the waistline. Have they got a rib cage? Do they need it? Oh, you doing it for them or you doing it for yourself?

Definitely Hannah. We've literally sailed through this episode. It's been amazing. So we're gonna spend the next five minutes just wrapping up with some final questions and thoughts. So Cam and how can. On these dog guardians, can you tell us more about the work that Cam does to support both guardians and professionals?

Yeah, so Cam didn't have a plan. Cam was Hannah, just angry and started something in 2013 and I've been trying to shape it into per support service for the last, what? God, it's 11 years, 12 years now. 13 years even worse. so Cam is designed to support caregivers. The canine professional world and the veterinary professional world because chronic pain is way more complex than we give it credit. It is not a pill and see you in three months. It is not just hydrotherapy, it's not just weight loss. Chronic pain management is complex and I wanted to create a place where people. Could lap up that information in a really empathetic, practical manner. So I'm hoping that we've now got a website, which we are rebuilding. We're rebuilding, we are rebuilding you could go to and get what you need or you could at least start your journey. So, I would love caregivers to go look, I would love canine and veterinary professionals to use the resource. Resources and encourage their clients to go to the, to their website. We have a member zone, so we can actually really put more into it now, and we are financially independent. So what I say is not affected by drug company sponsoring me. So that's really important to us that we remain independent. So therefore we do need an income. So it's 35 pounds for the year to join cam, which is half the cost of seeing a vet for 15 minutes.

Yeah.

and we do lots and lots of, I I, professor Alex German in the member zone only two nights ago. He's world class speaker about obesity management with all of these really high-end speakers that you're not gonna have access to elsewhere. And it's for a mere 35 pounds for the year. we do lots of conferences. So we've got the Chronic Pain symposium coming up in April, the 24th to 26th. is truly interdisciplinary, so it's for canine professionals and veterinary professionals so that we can learn together. do that. We do lots of conferences. We do practice trainings, we do rehab clinic trainings. We've got courses in our education center for vets, nurses. Canine professionals and caregivers. So if you want to go and learn more and it, maybe you're a dog walker and you're like, I need to learn more, please go and do cam advocate level two. You might be a vet nurse that's got quite a good understanding, but you want more Go do cam. Veterinary practitioner. There's lots and lots out there. got shop cam, online shop. But my, my little passion project at the moment is the pain va. So it's a subsidiary of Cam because over the last 13 years, I've had so many people approach me for advice, and I've been very constrained because I'm not their vet. there's a rule, you are under your vet's care. having got loads of messages and emails and having done it first. 13 years. I approached the Royal Vet College and said, can I set up a service where I could be a per pathetic to that person's vet that I could do a lot of the legwork for that vet. But the vet retains charge of the case. So they'll do the x-rays, they'll sell the drugs, they'll all sell the prescription food. we've been working me James Hunt, Katie Smithers and Evie Tubman. It's called the Pain Vet. It's the pain vet.co at uk. And it's a way that if you've got a case that needs more time, you've got a case that you can't get to the bottom of. You've got a case where the vets doesn't think it's pain, but you think it is. There's so many reasons to use the service the way it works is you book an appointment, you can see Evie for 10 minutes for free. She's our a nurse. She's amazing. She does the discovery calls. Or you can see Katie, James, or me, and we all have our passion in, in pain management. You send in photos and videos, you fill in a questionnaire quite extensive. You finish finish in a pain questionnaire, we get your veterinary history. We go through all of that. Takes probably about two hours to go through all of your info. And then we have an hour online with you talking about your case, coming up with a management plan, and we create a report that goes to you and your vet. So we really. Set you up for success. And that's been something that I've been working on for a while and I think people are quite cautious about it. They're not really sure how it works. The amount of inquiries and the amount of movement on Holly's army or community group, or how much movement there's on CAM or social media, I know it's needed. It's just trying to get people to change their social habits. Most people just go, oh, well I'll just go and see my vet, but then they'll come back online, go, my vet didn't do anything to help me out,

yeah.

There's another way, but yeah, I'm hoping that I'm working towards creating a project that really supports my profession.

Mm

it continues to grow the chronic pain. Sector. 'cause I'm learning loads and I

mm

it. I feel that we're hopefully bridging a gap for dog trainers and behaviorists that have cases that they think have pain involved, but the vet and them not really maybe gelling.

Tricky, isn't it? Sometimes.

Zach, they, and then for caregivers that want more than 15 minutes,

mm, right

so there's lots going on.

now. That's amazing. So I'll put that link in the show, but how can people get in touch with you or if they wanna know more about Cam?

So if you want to know more about Cam, go to canine arthritis.co uk. and you now can be channeled into being a caregiver

that.

on. Yeah, behind the scenes we're rebuilding the websites again. So at the moment, the front end is perfect, all the resources are great, but the actual owner website, I'm rewriting there again, that's gonna be the third time. We're rebuilding the member zone as. Well, so you can access the members owned via that website and you can access all of our social media or shop. You can even donate via that website if you quite like. But that would be where, and if you wanna get hold of me hello@caninearthritis.co at uk.

I'll put all the bits in the show notes, but what me message as we wrap up, would you love every dog guardian to take away about arthritis? Hannah.

Please attend to it early. I think the thing that breaks my heart is that dogs are so bloody lovely. They put up with so much, and I see the cases they come in and they're really quite debilitated. And you think to yourself, you've been living with pain for a few years now and you've been picked up and put in the back of the car and you've been walked and you've overdone it. And all of these times that haven't recognized that you are really saw. And I don't know, have you, have you ever, you ever got delayed onset muscle soreness? Have you ever been to the gym and you've overdone it and you're like, oh my God,

I haven't been to the gym for a long time. I do. I do. I've done yoga in my time. I love yoga.

Have you ever done it where two days later you can't move, you're

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

and how would it make you feel to think that your dog was going through that indefinitely and no one heard them?

Awful. Absolutely awful. I'd wanna advocate for them, make it all better.

Exactly. So please, caregivers, if you're in fear of going to the vet, you're in fear of what they're saying. You're in fear of bills, you are in fear of medication. Whatever it is, you are in fear of your dog's, not your dog's living the experience, and it's your duty of care to go and get them the attention that they need.

Love that. Thank you so much, Hannah Capon, thank you so much for joining me on The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I've absolutely loved chatting with you today.

Thank you for having me.

You are most welcome. Before we finish, here are a few key takeaways from today's conversation with Hannah. Number one, arthritis is extremely common in dogs and can begin much earlier than people expect. Number two, early signs are often subtle. Changes in behaviour, movement, or mood can all be indicators. Number three, pain can influence behavior, which means recognizing it is crucial for both guardians and professionals. Number four, arthritis management is rarely about one single solution. It's about a multi-modal approach, including vet care, lifestyle adjustments, and supportive therapies. And number five, most importantly, with the right support. Dogs with arthritis can still live happy, active, and comfortable lives. A huge thank you to Hannah Capon and the team at Canine Arthritis Management for joining me today and for sharing such valuable insight. Thank you so much for listening to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. If you found this episode helpful, please consider sharing it with a fellow dog guardian because. Understanding our dogs better, helps us support them throughout every stage of their lives. And I'll see you next time on the yappy hour.