Foreign.

Hello and welcome back to Promoted podcast, the podcast that gets you promoted to be great when you get there.

I'm your co host Renee Wootton Tomlin and I'm here with the wonderful phenomenal Felicity Fury.

We're waving if you're on YouTube seeing us visually but it's really great to be back.

We have a really exciting topic for everybody today but before we kick off I do want to acknowledge I'm a larakia country today.

We survived cyclone Fena, Felicity.

A bit of, you know, tropical wind and a few trees sound, but otherwise everybody survived pretty well up here in Darwin which is really nice.

Everyone was very relaxed actually about a cyclone.

We had people out surfing in our beaches which by the way have crocodiles in them.

I guess not in cyclonic conditions but Darwin people are very relaxed.

How are you Felicity and where are you calling from?

I am good.

I am on Gubby Gubby country.

So wanya Renee.

And today is my last day here for two months.

We are going to be taking the fam in our big beautiful motorhome traveling down to Tasmania.

So I'll be on lots of different country over the next two months.

So I feel like I've been saying like a little goodbye to like all little birds in the garden and I actually have been watching this tree grow in my backyard for like the last three years and since we moved into our house and there's been this one branch that the kookaburras love to sit on and the branch fell off this week.

So I've like saved a bit of wood so I think I might do some whittling on my holiday or something fun like that.

And it's very, I feel very connected to the land that I'm on at the moment.

So I feel sad to be leaving it and excited to see how our vegetable garden survives if at all by the time that we come back.

Very excited to be here with you and I recording these podcasts before we head off.

I'm excited for you.

I can't believe it's Christmas holidays already.

But enjoy your time away and reintegrating yourself back with nature every day.

I'm excited for you.

Be good for the system.

So today we are talking all about my most recent redundancy.

So back in September, if you've missed our topic and discussion on redundancy, we published it in the last two weeks.

We had some amazing feedback and one of our listeners wrote in to me and mentioned that it was incredibly helpful for them off the back of their own redundancy.

So shout out to Catherine for writing into us.

And one of the questions that Catherine actually had was, how do I market myself to employers when I don't tick all of the boxes?

So I thought that we would start our conversation here today to help one of our very important listeners with the next kind of step in their own journey after recovering from redundancy and how to get back in there and make yourself competitive.

Maybe I'll just start with some general context around what I've heard recently from people that are applying for jobs.

I've been getting mentored and coached as a lot of, you know, post my own redundancy.

And one of the things that has come up is that applying for a job is no longer the same as it was maybe two years ago or even a year ago, in that there's so many people applying for jobs these days that you can't get noticed just by simply applying for a job.

And, Felicity, I've been really keen to hear what you've heard in your own discussions and among your own peers and networks.

But what I've been told is essentially kind of need to know someone now in the industry or get someone to vouch for you in the application process for you to actually stand out, which is a whole new thing.

It's a.

It's a new ball game, essentially.

And on top of that, how do you stand out physically?

So how are you showing up in the office to present yourself?

How are you actually connecting with the people that you're looking to be hired by?

So it's now really going that extra mile to network, to connect with people, and to show your true ambition to actually work for a company and meet the people behind the scenes.

Felicity, I'm keen to hear your thoughts.

Have you heard anything like that?

Yeah, it's an interesting time.

I think a lot of people are getting made redundant, and I was.

Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised by how many listeners we had to the redundancy episode.

It was really popular and there was a lot of feedback and comments online as well, which is fantastic to hear that our message is resonating with you guys.

And, yeah, send us your questions.

We love answering them.

And thanks to Catherine for sending this through.

Yeah, I feel like I'm a little bit out of the corporate world in terms of being hearing people and what's going on day to day.

But that is actually what you shared was the approach that I have taken in the past and that I found to be really, really effective is having someone that you know in the organization.

And I've also seen a lot of really senior people do this with me in the sense of they are looking for a senior role at a company.

They've gone, just a simple thing of, they've just gone on LinkedIn, they've seen who in their network on LinkedIn, know people that work for their company.

And then they've approached me and said, hey, look, I'm looking at switching into this industry, into this role.

I see that you're connected with this person.

Do you know them well?

What's your relationship?

Would you be open to an introduction?

And I thought that was such a fantastic strategy because they don't know that person directly, but this person, I have a very, very good relationship.

We've known each other for more than 10 years.

Actually know him longer than his wife, which I found out recently.

And so it was interesting that that was.

That was.

That was his approach.

And I thought it was fantastic.

He wasn't made.

He was looking for a new, very senior role.

And it's certainly been my experience when I've looked at you, if I look back on the roles that I've applied for, it's been less of apply for an actual job, it's been network with people.

And that was actually how I got the job at arup, that I had met the CEO.

He was very generous in saying, I'm happy to pass on your cv.

I can't promise anything, but I can share it with a few people.

And then that was how I eventually got the role there.

And then when I started at Arab, I feel like 95 of the people I spoke to knew someone and they were the most random connections.

One person said, oh, my neighbor worked at ARUP when I was growing up.

And then that's how I got in.

I was like, what?

This is so wild.

And I just see it time and time again, just personally through our networks where there are these small little connections.

And just one other example before we move on.

I actually spoke this week at qut, and one of the people there, they're in the robotics team.

So shout out to Jonathan Roberts.

And I actually babysat for his kids when I was 15 because I run into him.

I know I run into him a few times.

He still literally lives two blocks from my mum's house and sees my mum going, And I got recommended for the Talk by a guy, Toby Fisher.

So shout out to Toby.

Thanks for recommending me for the talk at qut.

I thought it might have been Jonathan.

And there's been a few times we've bumped into each other recently.

And it just gives me such a laugh to think that, you know, he's known me for over 20, you know, years, and I used to babysit his two kids.

Yeah.

Such a small world.

The power of connections, everybody.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I think it's an interesting question because how do you market yourself in today's world?

And the thing that stands out to me in that is around personal brand.

And that's something that I haven't consciously cultivated until very recently.

And the coach, actually, that we now share, Renee, she's brilliant at that.

And she actually told me recently that the core of a personal brand is actually emotion, and it's actually what's the emotion that people have when they're connecting in with that brand.

And I think that's really.

And a really important message here as well.

When it comes to marketing yourself.

Marketing yourself is about that personal brand and that emotional connection.

And while it might seem like a bit of a silly story that I babysat Jonathan's kids, like, we instantly have this connection and this emotion.

And if you want something really practical on how to make those connections with people that you don't know, I really love what Daniel Priestley talks about, which is.

He talks about 7, 11, 4 inc people, which is 7.

Or maybe I'll get 7 hours of time with somebody, 11 different interactions, and 4 different types of content.

So that could be.

Of those four, it could be listening to a podcast, it could be seeing someone speak, it could be having a coffee.

It could be a LinkedIn post, four different types of media.

And the seven hour thing, he talks about it being like, if you go to school with someone and they're like, hey, I love this restaurant, you should totally go.

Like, it's going to be amazing versus someone you meet on the street saying, I love this restaurant, you should go.

You're more likely to take the advice of the friend who is the school friend, rather than this stranger.

So he applies that kind of thinking to his marketing for his businesses.

But I think it actually applies here when it comes to personal brand.

If you're wanting to build a relationship with someone, particularly for a role, how many, how many interactions are you having with them and how you actually engage in them?

What do you think?

Yeah, super interesting.

I mean, just.

I applied for a job recently and was actually offered a job and that job opportunity came through a connection.

I hadn't actually met them before, but I did sign up to support a challenge of theirs, an aviation challenge, to look at new innovations that could reach the market.

So we had one email exchange, and then he recommended me for a job, and I ended up getting the job offer.

So I think, you know, and that was one of the questions in the interview is, how do you know this person that recommended you?

So, yeah, it's a really small world, I think, but how to market yourself?

I. I agree with you, Felicity.

Comes back to personal brand.

But I think the challenge is with marketing.

Like, you know, if I think about you and I, Felicity, we've got a website.

We've done multiple public talks.

We, you know, have careers in the industry, and we can, like, have our experience vouched for.

The challenge that comes with having a personal brand is then you almost are competing with the organization that you work with in a way.

So some organizations will see it as competition.

Some organ organizations will see it as amplification of their own brand.

So it really depends on, like, the values of the organization that you're going into.

But I know for a fact that I have had to have several conversations around the fact that I public speak that I have my own website, and I constantly have to manage that in with the brand.

So a brand can be a really positive thing, but it can also be a little bit laborious and something tricky to navigate.

So something just to keep in mind generally.

And to that point, even what we say on the podcast at times, we have to really think about how the perception of all of our different audiences and, you know, that's something where, you know, we can't.

We can't always share, I suppose, our true thoughts because it implicates people or brands.

And again, it's just.

It comes back to that public perception.

How do you manage your own brand?

How do you manage an organization's brand and do that through the lens of, you know, not.

Yeah, not implicating people or putting your foot out.

Maybe a good example is if you have an opinion of a brand or an organization that you just worked with and you don't like the way that they've done something, you know, you can't really come on and publicly say that, oh, you know, this is what I really think.

Because the reality is, you know, you probably work in an industry that's quite small.

People talk.

If you're talking poorly about one organization, then maybe another employer will look at that and say, well, well, you know, if something goes wrong in this organization, we don't want to hire her for the risk of her, like, speaking out and saying something poor about our brand as well.

Maybe that's like a Negative kind of connotation, but it's something that you have to really manage in how you market yourself really matters.

Because if you're.

And maybe I'll just say to close that out, even if you have an opinion that is poor about a brand, there is a difference between thinking that and saying that, you know, in a disclosed kind of like safe space, and announcing that publicly to a lot of people.

So just something to keep in mind, like, your brand really does matter.

The things that you say really do matter.

And when you start thinking about going public and building that brand, to really market yourself, you know, you have to think about it from multiple lenses.

So it can be complex.

But I think, you know, growing up in a corporate space, it's something that we learn through time.

And certainly as I've become more and more senior in my roles, I've realized the implications of, you know, speaking out or representing yourself in the wrong light.

And so there is a level of strategy that goes into that as well.

So coaching is a really great place to start in terms of understanding you and the nuance that exists when you start essentially advertising yourself.

What do you think?

I think you touched on something really important there.

And I think it's about reputation.

And so there's brand and then there's reputation.

And, you know, I think it can take a short period of time to destroy a reputation.

And I've seen a lot of senior people be really, really protective of that.

And at the beginning, it wasn't something I really thought too much about.

But the more I go in my career, the more I realized actually how valuable that is.

And so for me, I've had rules for a long time, like no gossiping, like, about people or in my workplace or.

And I think I might have mentioned on the podcast before, that has been tricky because it means that I haven't been invited to all social gatherings and workplaces, or I am not kind, you could say in the note, I don't want to know that information.

But I've been excluded from conversations because of that.

And that's really a personal choice for me, and I am totally okay with that because that's aligned to my values.

And I think the same applies with our clients, where if there is something that didn't work for me or misaligned with my values, it's that private conversation with them, if that's required.

And we have a bit of a saying in we aspire, which is make the client the hero.

And we have that usually as a slide just for us at the Beginning of our workshops and it's all about like they're the one, we're representing them.

And I think about that when I'm speaking as well, when I'm, if it's a client where it's one a one off speech, is that really I'm representing them.

At the end of the day, if they want me to talk about something in particular, then okay, great, I'm doing that job for them.

I think if there's something that I wouldn't feel comfortable talking about, I would just not say anything about the topic.

But I really have been surprised at how important.

It sounds so obvious how important your reputation is.

But it's incredibly important, particularly when you are in those leadership roles.

So I think, I think what you touched on is really powerful because there is, there are the positives of how do you build that brand, but then there are also those things to look out for.

So how is your reputation generally in, in the community in your industry and then also how does that reputation align or how does your brand align with the companies?

And I, similar to you and I've been in those spots where I have had media and I've had to have.

I mean I know that you've worked with some really large corporates and been in the same situation where it can be tricky to be what's my voice, how do I have that aligned with the brand, how do I get everything approved by them before I speak?

It's very, very difficult and I think that's something to be mindful of about what roles that you can't, that you want to go go for.

When it comes to marketing though, how would you.

I think this question really also talks about like how do you differentiate yourself from other people in the market?

So I love what you Q and A about, you know, that network and finding the people and building those relationships.

Have you got any other advice or is there anything else that you do to help you stand out in the market?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I think storytelling is another big piece.

So again, you can kind of do that through your website and that external marketing piece.

But so for me, if I think back on my experience and the diverse roles that I've had in the diverse organizations I've been a part of, I've really, you know, learned the ins and outs of not only aviation business, but operations and kind of this technical sphere too, which places me in a really unique position.

Anyway, you know, it means that I now have this really great people and commercial strategic lens whilst I also have this operational technical like you know, numbers, data, process, lens as well.

So for me, that naturally places me in a really strong and competitive position when I'm looking to take kind of, of commercial strategic roles now, because I understand things from multiple perspectives.

So what I would say is that for people that have that sort of experience, that is a unique proposition.

You are already a unicorn in so many different ways.

So for me, it would then be, how do you write this brilliant cover letter and, you know, feed that through a resume to make that diverse experience really stand out for me in terms of a resume, the way I've done that is kind of draw on, you know, what are my unique skills and my, you know, like, high capability.

What is my high capability?

What can I deliver on?

And I really align that to the function of the job.

So I really read through that position description.

I get a really good sense of what are they actually looking for.

And then I tailor my resume to really call out the key skills that align.

Now, I don't always have every single box and I don't have every single eligibility criteria that I list.

Right.

And I think that there is a misnomer that you need to have everything on that list to apply.

So let this be known.

You don't need all of the things on the piece of paper to actually apply.

And if anything, I would apply for jobs that maybe you feel are a bit out of your reach and see if you can get through the recruitment process and just challenge yourself in that way.

And I tend to do that anyway.

I tend to apply for jobs that I think are either at my level or a little bit higher.

And I just see what happens along the way because sometimes employers don't know what they're looking for until they find you.

So, you know, just give it a shot.

And I know that a lot of young women, a lot of young people experience imposter syndrome.

I've certainly had that throughout my career.

But I'm at a point now where I really appreciate what I bring to the table and my capability and strength.

And that took me, I would say, until maybe in the last year, I think this year, like 32 years old, to figure out that, hey, I've got a lot to offer actually, and now I'm not scared to show that.

So I hope you guys are on your own journeys to like building that self confidence.

Confidence and that self awareness as well.

But if you're already getting employed and you're already building on your career and potentially getting those promotions or working up to them, just know you've already Got what it takes to succeed.

All you need is a good attitude and the ability to work hard and then like refine your skills.

If you're doing those three things, you're pretty well on your way to success.

Like, there is not.

I appreciate that there are a list of eligibility requirements and perfect experience that they're looking for, but they're not always going to get that.

Humans are not perfect, so we don't always tick all the boxes.

So just know that, you know, maybe half the criteria is enough.

And then just trying to apply and see how far you get is, is fantastic and a great experience for you to figure out how to position yourself, how to promote yourself and how to advocate for yourself in those roles.

Outside of that, I think references are really critical.

So trying to get somebody that is in that network, in that organization, or someone who knows someone, and if you don't have any of those things, then I think that next step of literally going out and finding those people and building those connections yourself are going to be really important.

I had, I gave a speech in Darwin about two weeks ago and I had a young man walk up to me at the end of my speech and he said, renee, I've applied to 40 different jobs and I just can't seem to get an interview.

What do I do?

And I said, wow, that's incredible effort.

But obviously you're not doing something enough to capture people's attention.

So I said, if you have an organization that you really want to work for, you need to go into their head office and you need to actually go and meet with the people.

You need to sit down and take them out for coffee.

You need to understand the storyline, the reputation, the values of that organization and really immerse yourself in it.

And that to me is showing up in person and asking for people's time.

And then it's a bit of a waiting game after that.

It's applying for the next opportunity.

It's, you know, you know, following up with people and making sure that they're aware that you still really want that job when and if the time comes.

I think, like I said earlier in the episode, I think gone are the days where people can just put in a cover letter and apply for a job.

I think we need to see that next level of effort to be competitive because so many people are applying for really high quality jobs.

So you have to do something to stand out outside of that.

Again, I think that cover letter, so bringing that whole narrative together, like, who are you?

Where are you from?

What do you Bring why are you passionate about that job?

And why do you want to work for that organization specifically?

Those are the sorts of things that you want to be answering in your cover letter, and you want to really make an effort with that.

Because if you can't get that connection or you miss that opportunity to go and connect in person before they've seen your application, you know, you want to put your best foot forward, and sometimes that's the best that you can do in that moment.

So that's probably enough for me.

Felicity, what do you think?

Yeah, I love.

I love that piece around the storytelling.

And early in my career, someone basically said, if you don't.

If you don't tell your story, someone else will.

And I really apply that from everything to like, if someone's like, hey, how you going?

Be like, oh, great.

I've had a great weekend.

I've been working on writing my book.

Oh, cool.

That's a new infra conversation.

I've just told someone, hey, I'm writing a book.

Little things like that actually are part of that storytelling.

So I think, yeah, if you don't tell the story, someone else will.

And then I've done the same similar thing to you, which I think we talked about in our previous episodes around applying for awards, where I will list out, like, my strengths, all the things I'm good at and the things that I enjoy, and then I will think about who's kind of like a typical person that could apply for this role or that could apply for this award, like we talked about for the awards, and then think about what stands out.

So I remember early on in my career, I knew, I know that I'm really good at writing reports and I'm a great communicator, and I know a lot of engineers hate writing reports, so I would actually leverage that as a skill.

I found in my experience that people would put me in front of clients really quickly.

And that was another the skill of you can put me in front of a client tomorrow, and I'm happy to have that conversation with them.

So that I think was.

Is a real asset, particularly when I was working a lot in consultancy.

So if I was, if I was, you know, sitting here today thinking about I'm going to go apply for a job, I would consider, what are those things that help me stand out that could be different?

And I'd really just take the time to stop and think about my strengths.

If you're not sure about your strengths, I highly recommend the Gallup Strengths Finder.

It's also Cliftonstrengths founded by Gallup.

It probably is, I think it's like 35 bucks or something.

Doing it's so, so helpful.

And that helped me identify my top five strengths and that also helped me think about the things that I would enjoy.

So a lot of those to me around like leadership, strategic, that kind of thing.

So then I can really put that into my application.

And the last thing point I'll just share is that I think if you're going out and meeting people and having those coffees, that it is such a fantastic investment.

If you don't get the job for that organization, that is totally okay.

And I think it's valuable number of reasons.

One is that you're putting yourself out there, you're sharing your story, you're creating that narrative and you're networking and building relationships in the industry.

You never know where those relationships are going to go or where they're going to pop up again.

And I like, I could tell you I could do like 10 episodes on, on this podcast of who I've met, how it helped and then 10 years later, boom, they pop up again.

So I think that's just so incredibly valuable to be building that network all the time, no matter what.

So I think if you think, oh gosh, it's going to take time, it's not going to work out, I those investments are really, really valuable.

It's been a juicy episode, Renee.

We've covered a lot.

Any final thoughts or advice?

I feel like there's also a part two because our wonderful listener actually wrote an epic question.

So I think we're gonna have to tune in for part two to answer the second half of her question that she had in her message.

Absolutely.

One final thought is as well, diversity of experience.

So if you have siloed yourself or you're working in a very nice niche industry and don't feel like you can get that competitive edge because of diversity of experience or that storytelling piece?

Something else that you can leverage is things to do outside of work.

So have you signed up for a non for profit?

Have you got a leadership role in some sort of council that aligns with the industry that you're in?

That really proves that you are super passionate about the jobs that you're going to for.

I think something that's really underestimated is that storytelling piece, but the passion that comes with why you're applying for that job in the first place.

If you can sit down and say I have dedicated my life to, I might use myself as an example.

I've dedicated my career to the aviation and aerospace sector.

There have been one or two times that I've left the industry and in those moments realized how passionate I am and how dedicated I am to actually advancing the aerospace sector.

So whilst I have taken jobs in tech startups that don't involve aviation, here's what I learned and here's why I came back.

And then, you know, I have taken XYZ role and here's all of the incredible things that I've learned about that industry along the way.

And then here is, this is why I'm here today.

This is why I want this job with you.

And here's what I see that I can contribute and add to your business.

If you can work through that kind of systematic lens of these questions and that story, that's going to be phenomenal.

And to add to that, if you don't have diverse experience in your day to day nine to five job going and working in non profits or community ventures that support not only the development of additional skills, but that alignment with your purpose and giving back, I think that that really rounds you out as a human.

I think, I think most of the time that I received jobs that I didn't think I was actually going to get or were highly, highly competitive was because I was able to demonstrate time and time again in no matter whether it was my personal life or my professional life, I was doing something to advance my community and promoting the industry that I care about.

So if anything, I would say that Gallup Strengths Report is probably one of the most like, that's a critical place to kind of start in a way because you need to know you, you need to know your why and you need to establish what you actually want to do.

And if you can't answer that yourself and clearly how are you going to promote yourself to other people?

So sit down and think about your own journey, your own why and where you want to go and then pick an employer that helps that story come to life.

Essentially.

I might end there.

Felicity.

So good.

You just made the one more final thing that I'll just share.

We could go on and on all day.

Renee.

Yeah, but you just made me think, oh my gosh, now I've forgotten what it was around.

Oh, that's right.

I used to find it really hard to know what my strengths were.

So yeah, Gallop strength finder.

So good.

But another thing that I found super fascinating was actually asking people in my network, what do you think my strengths are?

What do you think my weaknesses are?

What do you know about me.

And so I did that with a whole range of people.

So I did it with friends, with mentors.

And then there was a really common theme that came up, and it was that, that I'm really great at creating a vision and then getting people on board with an idea.

And I was like, is that a thing?

And, like, how could that possibly be useful for anyone?

I think, of course, it's great for leadership, and I've had some time to think about that and see where it resonates and applies.

But it was so helpful.

Like, it's so hard talking, thinking about yourself.

Like, we can be our own biggest critic.

So let your network or the people in your life, like, it could be calling your mom or your parents, parents or your siblings, if you've got great relationships with them and asking them what do they think?

And I think the answers will really surprise you.

So great hack.

If you're.

If it's too.

If you're finding it hard, because it is hard, I find it hard, then that's also a really helpful strategy.

So we hope there's some tips in there.

Don't try to do it all at once.

Just take one or two things, see what resonates with you, and please tell us how you go.

We've had so many stories, actually, of people getting, literally getting promoted, getting new jobs jobs, getting pay rises.

We love, love, love, love seeing your messages on LinkedIn.

So thank you so much for listening to this podcast, and we'll see you in the next episode.

Thanks so much, Renee.

Thanks, Felicity.