Jay Smith

It got to a point where I needed to get out. So I need to get out plan, because I knew there was no future there. And I knew that it just didn't agree with my soul.

Alex

Welcome to stories of men beneath the surface. I'm Alex Melia. Join me, as we discover what it means to be a man in the modern era.

In today's episode, we'll explore how the message is a man hears when he's just a boy can ricochet throughout his whole life. Jay was a manager at a printing company in Essex. He'd been there for five years, but he hated the job, hated giving people orders that he didn't agree with. Shortly before his 30th birthday, Jay began plotting his escape route.

Jay Smith

It was a Friday morning, I had been in for about an hour, and then I received a phone call, I was feeling quite anxious at that point, I didn't know kind of like what the meeting was about, or anything like that it was very last minute. So I'm walking towards the meeting room and passing everybody that I would normally pass in the morning, the heart is beating is through a printing factory. So you can imagine walking straight through the factory, the printers churning out the printing jobs, that they've got on the fixed smell of ink in the air. I sat and waited in the waiting room. Finally, I got called into the meeting room. And at the head of the table was the general manager. And then his assistant was the side of him. It was kind of like a big friendly guy give you got on the bad side of him, you'd see the bad side of him. And you would see the depths of his bad side as well. But if you are on the right side of him, like he was like a just a friendly giant. He said, Take a seat and just sat there. And he said, then I think you probably know what this is going to be about. Basically, I think got found out that I was I was looking for jobs during work hours. He then said, we're going to have to let you go.

A few things flashed before my eyes and like through my mind, and it wasn't so much about that I was getting out of the job. It was the fact of my financial situation, it was the fact that I had a mortgage and had other financial commitments to pay in the next few months. I got quite emotional and unexpectedly like I started to cry. I'm here it's sitting in front of two men crying, I stepped away from the table and walked towards the window and kind of like looked outside and thought, right, what am I going to do now? Like, I've got no safety net, the general manager, he is a tendency to calm down a little bit, kind of like collect your thoughts. And you will need to leave the premises in a minute. And he will need to escort me out of the building. I didn't want to leave in that manner. How am I going to hide this from everybody like, I'm going to, I don't want to kind of like show my vulnerability to like the team I used to work with and everybody else, but it might seem like I had been fired. Like I was ashamed. So I went upstairs and put a mic the bravest face like trying to make sure that like I was just, I look normal. I kind of walked to my desk, my computer screen was still on. And I basically got my bag and I said to everybody that I got a new job. I then headed for the door. And then as I was going down the stairs, I passed the guy who was the one that actually told on me. But I went up to him, I shook his hand because ultimately he was the one that actually got me out of that job.

Alex

So you've immediately gone from feeling sad and trying to make it seem like you've been fired. And then you've switched into this sort of positive mindset of actually, I should be grateful to this guy. So I'm going to shake his hand. Yep,

Jay Smith

he's the one that got me out of this situation like, like he actually gave me that helping hand that push. So you walk to the car, I walk to the car and get in the car. And then there's this kind of like, sigh of relief immediately as I get in the car. And I'm kind of like, it's actually happened like, I've actually left there, like and I'm not going back. So at this point, I was kind of like, right, I just, I'm just gonna sit here and just kind of take this in. Because this is a moment where like, things are gonna change and things are gonna change for the better. I knew that like I knew because like my back was against the wall at that point like I had to find another way. There is no other way than forward. So At that point, I was selling my car. And then I called my, my partner at the time and told her kind of what happened, but I wasn't honest with her. So I wanted to seem as though I, I was the hero in this situation, and I had walked out. And I have regret to this day that I was dishonest in that respect. But there's so many things that go through your mind at that time. And I was just in the frame of mind of I, because I had said to the other people that I kind of got a new job. I don't like being dishonest. I like being a man of my word. But then there's these things that lead you to being dishonest. And then it's like a snowball effect. You lie on one situation, and then you're like, Okay, I have to lie there. And then there's just the point where you just have to stop lying. Because it's, it's, it's not good for anybody. It's not good for yourself. And it's not, because like to be authentic and living your truth, you need to speak your truth. And whatever happens, like you just need to accept it.

Alex

You know, I'm fascinated by alpha males, what makes an alpha male? And it seems like this general manager was this sort of dominant leader, alpha male figure. When you went into that, meeting room, any any tells you this, and it sounds like you just spoke with the utmost clarity, this is a situation, we're going to have to let you go. Do you think it added gravitas to the situation for the fact that there was two men there as opposed to a man and a woman or, or two women,

Jay Smith

I think, obviously, it did have an effect on on my response. I mean, I couldn't help back my emotions, it's kind of not like I suppressed any emotions. But it was almost like I was being vulnerable in front of two men. And it was, it was was quite unsettling to a certain degree, because it was like I wasn't comfortable. I mean, it's hard to kind of explain, but you're not comfortable in that situation. When you're, you're facing to mate, and you're showing your vulnerability because you're fully exposed, fully exposed at that point, it's like, your coat of armour is no longer like, attached to you.

Alex

Yeah, I've had so many jobs when I was in my teens and early 20s. And it was kind of part time jobs. When I was at university, I was at college or whatever. And I was in a gardening job, and I wasn't particularly good at it. And the guy, the guy sacked me, and he was an alpha male. And he said, Look, I'm gonna have to let you go, you know, and all the best for the future. So then when I went home, I kept it all in. And then when I went into living room, I just burst into tears in front of my mom and dad. And that was the vulnerability that played out and I felt it was a very safe space. Yeah. Do you think that was a safe space for you to cry?

Jay Smith

No, that's why it was unexpected. It was like I tried to hold it back. But it's hard to hold back certain emotions, especially kind of like when you're upset. And I think when there's certain things that are attached to that as well, and you just can't hide it. When I say certain things attached, I mean, kind of like from a financial aspect if you're going to be in a situation. Because of that. It's not so much about actually losing the job. It's the material aspects. And it's kind of like I think, in this day and age where it was so kind of tied to material materialism. And the fact that if we are vulnerable, even through our materialism for our financial situation, then it shows us being weaker as men, because there's a again, we're exposed where we're weaker, because we find a sense of stability based on our financial situation. So when that's removed, it's like it's a challenge,

Alex

you're lower down, you lower down in the social hierarchy. Say for example, your friends are doing well they've got their jobs, they are going to certain class of restaurants or they're going to subclass a bar or nightclub or they can go on holidays if you have a lower paying job or you don't have a job at all it's pretty much evident to them that you you're not doing so well in your career. Because you can't afford to do all those things you make excuses about upper are sorry lads. I've not got any money or or sometimes you just don't say that you've got nominated because you're embarrassed arises you might make up some kind of sort of wild excuses. So it's, it's interesting you say about being exposed and being weak as well. I think

Jay Smith

men do feel empowered to a certain degree based on their financial status, their, their social status, and it's all of these external things that are part of what makes a man feel how he wants to feel or how he should feel. But you remove everything. And then what are you left with? Like, that's where true confidence is. If you remove everything, who are you them, because they are just a shield of armour.

Alex

Yeah, I sometimes think to myself who Am I if I don't have my business and the podcast doesn't go, Well, what am I left with? Am I going to have the confidence that I have now? Or is that going to dissipate? And it's a really interesting question to ask ourselves, because who was Jay in the car, he's just lost his job, he's worried about his, the material things in his life, you know, who is he in that moment,

Jay Smith

I find, it's very important to kind of like, feed your mind with the right things and kind of try and look at the positives in situations because it's, then it's then the you can kind of like flip things, flip negatives into positives, and, and you don't look at just the negatives, because if you just look at the negatives, then you're not going to find a solution to the problem that you really need to kind of like, step out of yourself and kind of look at look at everything from kind of like a bird's eye view and kind of assess the situation. And I think I'm pretty capable of doing that. Now. I mean, it's got, it's taken a little bit of work to get there, with like meditation and that kind of thing. But you start to kind of, like, realise the capabilities of your mind, but it's by you training your mind to be like them. And that's where you become resilient. And that's where you can kind of fully kind of relate to other people as well as yourself more, because you understand yourself more.

Alex

The guy that you were in that car, there was an element of you being an a really an optimist, because you, you know, you can imagine if I can imagine myself in that situation, I might have had no, I might have held on to that for hours and hours and hours where you've just gone just had a really difficult situation. I've lost my job. I go into the car, and a switch is like this almost positive switch negative to positive and it's just flipped upside down is that it seems like you're just seeing opportunity now what what's available to them? Yeah, the restrictions, the barriers that were in place before they've gone now.

Jay Smith

Yep. Yeah, it was freeing. That's what like, I just remember sitting in the car and like just thinking, Yeah, I'm free. Like, I'm free. Now,

Alex

the time that I told you about before with crying in the living room to my parents after I had been sacked, letting those tears out that day was was very freeing. And it sounds like it was it was that way for you to?

Jay Smith

Yeah, I think it was it was obviously needed. That I think just being mindful of a previous conversation I'd had with my mom and about her not liking to see men cry. She mentioned that to me one time, she said, I don't like to see men cry. There's been a few stages in my life where I've cried in front of my mom. And although that I've felt vulnerable in front of her, it's, it felt okay at the time, but it's knowing that she does think that about man. I mean, there are other outlets that you can kind of express yourself, whether that's like training at the gym, like sparring or like that kind of thing. So it's, there are other outlets, but I think that to get the the for the benefit, because I think that's what it is as well. It's a benefit, like you unleashing certain emotions at the right time. Because otherwise they do first that they turn into something completely different. And that can then have a snowball effects on to other things.

Alex

I don't think I ever had that conversation with my own mother about whether it was whether boys should cry or not. Anytime I cried, which was sporadically she'd be shocked. Where's it stemmed from? Do you think with your mother of boys don't cry? And And how has that impacted you over the years? And also, did your mom's face or voice go through your mind when you're crying in front of these two guys?

Jay Smith

I don't think it did. It's more of like an afterthought. Maybe it was just subliminal, or kind of like, just deep within me that that I'd heard her say that a long time ago. And whether that that was between my mom and my dad, and it was like a time when like my dad made showed vulnerability, I don't know. But you always kind of like pick up on things that your your parents kind of say is crazy. Like, you don't necessarily kind of like judge your parents for what they say or kind of like, question, but it's like they they've said something. So it must mean must mean there's true. Like if you kind of like interpret that when you're younger, and then you kind of like, you grow older, kind of like with that same belief, but never questioning why, like, I think that that's important. I think when we all become more mindful, it's like, question what your parents kind of told you, because like, ultimately, that kind of has a big impact on your behaviour later on in life.

Alex

Yeah, with your relationship with your mom, your mother in particular. What was your relationship with her like growing up?

Jay Smith

It's funny because basically my mom, my mom bought me and my brother up so like, my dad was around but like, we live with my mum, and obviously two boys and is a big age difference between me and my brother. So I can imagine that it was a challenge for it. Like Like I had so much love for her now and so I much respect for her and like she she's a loving woman. And she's, she's a nurturer, all of that kind of stuff. But at the time, like, I mean, I didn't know any different, like I would be playing, I wouldn't really listen, like, and I was, I had an older brother. And I always had to kind of like, really, always defend myself.

Alex

I was just thinking that when you said about your, the fact your mother brought you up, and she said, Boys Don't Cry, is it because she's playing the father role and the mother role compensate for the fact that your dad is not around?

Jay Smith

Yeah, that's perhaps where it comes from? And I'm, I mean, if I probably ask her, I'm sure that she probably won't actually give me she won't be able to give me an answer. Like, like when you get to the real deep root of like, Where Where did you get that from? Was that from your parents like, and then she probably won't be able to give me a proper answer. And so that's what I mean, like taking things for gospel, you really need to question things that you're being taught when you were younger, because they have such an impact, especially like from the ages of when you're born to the age of six, when you're kind of like, you're basically sponge. So you copy everything and you and then you take that behaviour with you for the rest of your life. And it's just within that short space of time.

Alex

I always find that the the impressive people that I've meet the people who question things, I'm just thinking back to my government school upbringing, whether we actually were taught to question things, it was sort of like the chalk and talk method of teaching where they write stuff on the copy it down in your textbook, but that there's no questioning that really is it's just revising facts and figures. But actually, to question things is a real skill. Yeah,

Jay Smith

I mean, we're not taught that. Kids aren't taught that today in schools. And we're not taught that amongst society as well, to kind of like question, we're not told to question the media. But you have to, there's many narratives, and there's many sides to many stories. And it's like, if there's only one narrative, then you need to look for the other narrative, because there's like, there's something being hidden there.

Alex

I find it fascinating that Jay hated his job, but he was still devastated when he got fired. Why was that was a point of pride? Was it a feeling of rejection, he wasn't able to leave the job on his own terms, and therefore it was outside of his realm of control. A lot of men, myself included, we want to control the narrative. And in this case, Jay wasn't able to do that. I've definitely had my fair share of jobs where I've been sacked. And on a couple of occasions, I did lie to people about why I'd left that job. I became very self reflective about one particular point that Jay made, that if we don't have our job, we don't have our money and our material things. What are we left with? It's something that I have to be honest with myself that I think I would feel less of a man if I didn't have all the things that I've got in my life. These achievements have definitely given me confidence and self esteem. This episode with Jay has reaffirmed to me the importance of being honest with ourselves and with others, when we've had some sort of rejection in our lives. And things haven't gone well for us. Because life is not all about constant successes and achievements. We have to face the rejections and the successes which are inevitable in all of our lives. I think it's important to acknowledge that it's extremely difficult because we're constantly subjected to an endless stream of successes and achievements. People want to highlight their successes, but they're more afraid and not as confident to actually highlight their failures. You see some here or there, but it's definitely not something that's normalised because there's a stigma attached to it, and we need to remove the stigma before we can move forward.