Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

I'm Anna Toonk. Welcome to how to be human, a podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humaneness. On this episode Anna and I discuss burnout. Take a seat clear mind, and let's chat.

Hi, hello. I read something on that day. I was like, I like saying hi, because it just says so much. Does it?

Yeah. I used to, you know, a lot of things that I find annoying, which I mean, I find kind of everything annoying. So I have to find ways to cope with that, that I used to find it really annoying when women would be like, Hi. So I started doing it as a joke to like desensitize myself. I did the

same thing. I swear to God, because I think it's incredibly annoying. Yeah, and

I'm like, Wow, looks like but I do think it's funny, especially to if you know, you've maybe been a little bit naughty. Like you maybe haven't gotten back to someone. It is very fun to text or email the highy. Like, yeah, cabbage. I know. I dropped off. Yes, I'm aware. But I'm back. And I'm gonna give you information. I feel

like this has been swirling around. This topic is not new. This topic is we're not reinventing the wheel here. But I do think, want to know what you think we've reached a new level.

Yes. Well, it was interesting prepping for it. Shout out to Jamie, who is not only a listener, but in our membership community who suggested the topic. Oh, thanks, Jamie. Yeah, she gave two great ones, which was burnout, which we're talking about today. And then I think maybe resentment was her otherwise. So she's two for two in terms of great topics, suggestions that we were like, oh, yeah, done. Those are two great ones.

Just feel free to let us know if you want us to talk about anything. We'll talk about anything. Mostly?

Yeah, we're slightly for talk. Quality for topics. Yeah, we're sorry for topics were slightly for talking. So when you google burnout, it's funny like the definition. Most of the words if you google them, the the definition comes up first and burnout in the context that we're all talking about it and hearing about it. It feels I think, like a newer thing, but obviously it's it's not you know. So the definition by Oxford languages of burnout is the reduction of a fuel or substance to nothing through use or combustion, the good carbon burnout, the failure of an electrical device or component through overheating, and install mechanism prevents motor burnout, which, you know, obviously, doesn't really, you know, like, that's, that's not really what we're talking about. So I was looking for a better definition and on everyone's favorite webmd.com, we have burnout symptoms and signs. Burnout is a form of exhaustion caused by constantly feeling swamped. It's a result of excessive and prolonged emotional, physical and mental stress. And many cases, burnout is related to one's job. Burnout happens when you're overwhelmed, emotionally drained, and unable to keep up with life's incessant demands.

Hmm,

chapter and then the diff friends, where did I have that? This is on mind tools.com. The difference between stress and burnout, that even though the two share common share characteristics, there are distinct differences because I don't know about you, I was a little confused about what would be the difference between burnout and stress. I guess burnout, just stress that's gone on for too long, and you've just given up you're like, I can't even like be stressed about this anymore. I'm somewhere new. So stress is often relatively short term, I would argue it's not as we enter year 400 of a pandemic. In it, it's often caused by a feeling that work is out of control. You might experience stress several days in a row, especially when you're working on a large project, or under a tight deadline. However, once the situation changes, stress often lessens or disappears entirely. Stress can affect you over the longer term. However, if you're consistently experiencing these things, burnout often takes place over a longer period. You might to experience it if you believe your work is meaningless when there's a disconnect between what you're currently doing, and what you truly want to be doing, or when things change for the worse, for example, when you lose a supportive boss, or when your workload increases beyond a sustainable point, you go through the motions instead of being truly engaged over time. This leads to cynicism, exhaustion, and sometimes poor performance. What's interesting about this article on mind tools.com, is if you look at their footnotes and references, there's a book from 1983 called burnout. Nine, so yeah, not a new thing.

Well, I mean, I knew it was not new, but I didn't think that. I mean, it's definitely something people have not talked about. Like they talk about it. Now. Now. It's just every other sentence.

Well, I just think it's like capitalism is built upon it. So if we were going to actually talk about it, we would probably have to offer solutions for it to or a culture that supported it. You don't like dealing with it. And it was crazy to me that there's this book burnout from 1983. There's another one career burnout causes cures from 1989. I'd be so curious what those say, what their suggestions are that boy, yeah, really. But it was just so emphasized to me that like, this isn't a new thing. This is not a new problem. You know, like, this is something that I feel like people have felt a tension with for a long time.

You know, it's interesting, because everything I saw, or not everything, but most of the things that I saw when I was doing my research is work related, which is definitely how I experienced it. And I think many people experience have experienced it. However, now that we're really deep into pandemic and a really violent world, and people's mental health is rapidly declining. I think I feel like burnout has just bled into everything, you know, and I know and I do, I mean, the New York Times had an article, I think it was New York Times during the pandemic about parents and moms being burned out during the pandemic, which I obviously understand for people who were managing things completely differently. Like I didn't experience that because of my life didn't really change that much. But I can imagine, for so many people, it was just like the world, the ceiling, just you know, caved in. But I really think that people miss this physical signs of burnout, because to your point, our culture is built upon it, and dependent on people being burnt out and being okay, being burned out. So I think a lot of people dismiss their physical symptoms as normal and or don't even notice them until they hit a wall, or it turns into something that is, you know, maybe you get sick, or maybe it's like a more serious diagnosis. And, and that seems to be the norm.

I don't know that they're dismissing it. I think they don't feel like they have a choice. Like when I've talked to other people. And do you remember when the article came out, the woman who worked for the Kardashians on their app, and she was like, I couldn't afford gas, you know, and after Kim had said, you'd like nobody wants to work. And she was like, you know, I work for them. And I couldn't even afford gas sometimes. And I was like, talking to a friend about it. And I was like, I have such mixed feelings about some of these articles and things because like, they're, it's true that like, most of these people, we look like we you know, that people kind of like look up to or maybe want to follow in the footsteps of or something or think like, well, if I work for this company, it will do this or whatever. You know, they know they're stressed. They know, but like, what are you supposed to do? Like, even if like, you know, the amount of people I know who are miserable in their careers and also have like, raging IBS is like, tons of them. You know, it's like they're holding hands, but they're like, What am I supposed to do? I have no financial security. I don't, you know, like, I don't come from a family with money. Like, I can't just quit my job. And I think that's what I think all of us when you're, you're burnt out and I like I have sensitivity for that. But I because it's like it's difficult to remind yourself and remember your agency when when you're burnt out. And when you've given so much of yourself and energy to a place that didn't, you know, value it or honor it or whatever. Ever, that I understand why you can be like, you know, I was reading something that was like, you know, symptoms of burnout. And like, it was kind of interesting too, because I also think like, to a certain degree when we get into the physical, that they're like, you know, breathing too hard that can be burnout, you know that it can get this one on mind tools.com 13 signs that you're heading for burnout. One of the things was experiencing physical complaints such as headaches, illness or backache, like, that's kind of vague, you know, but I think that it's how, like, how do we remember that like, those things like your physical body, the way you feel you feeling Capable to make change in your life is really important. And no job is worth sacrificing that. Yeah, and like, like, certainly no job that's like, I think, I think it's I think I feel really aware of and freshly out of like, some of our experiences, to be honest, it's like, nothing is like, anything that just sucks is probably not going to pay off. You know, like, if you've to work for someone who's terrible if you're like, constantly compromising yourself or whatever, like, whatever you think it's going to do for you. It probably isn't. And I wonder, it's like, how do we hang on to and remember that? So when we do feel like we're being run into the ground, we can go like, Oh, yeah, like, I have options, even if I don't know what they are in this moment right now.

Yeah, I think I don't think people dismiss them as in, you know, oh, it's no big deal. Or it's very obvious that most people don't have a choice, you know, and we design things that way. So that we keep people in these limiting, you know, some of them really don't have very many options, or they definitely can't see their options. But what I mean by dismissing them is like, many of us are used to feeling like shit, so we're not a lot of us really don't know, or can easily, like really run past or gloss over a physical symptom that is trying to slow us down. And even if you can't quit the job, which many of us cannot, there's a there are ways to at least recognize what's coming up and treat yourself differently. In that moment, even small, super small changes can prepare you to maybe make a bigger step down the road. But this stuff won't happen overnight. So I think a lot of people hit walls of you know, they have either a panic attack, or, you know, I've had so many clients who like break out in rashes, or, you know, they're just many, many physical symptoms of stress and, and burnout, right? Like you said, everything you have a backache, I mean, anything can be put in that bucket. But more than that, it's just like, how do we honor what it is that our bodies are trying to tell us? And when we do feel foggy, can you even just step away for like, five minutes and take a walk around the block, just to kind of give yourself any space, because it's, it mostly is work related, but a lot of it is now just life. And there's no it's relentless. There's no break, there's no break from the news. There's no break from, you know, expectations a lot of people are under at work, people have multiple children, whatever, like their life is, is kind of dense right now with stuff. So small ways to at least acknowledge that you're feeling burned out, I think can help on the road, to getting us a little bit less to that stage of oh my god, I've now really, really, really got myself into a hole that I have to get myself out of, because I'm, I feel just kind of so depleted, you know, and then you really are forced to rest.

Yeah, it also I feel like it can be this real slippery slope in I remember in production just sometimes. Like how skewed you can get a thinking like, I don't have time to run out and get a coffee like yes, you do. Like no one is that important unless you're literally operating on someone right this second. You know, like you absolutely can go run out and get a coffee and see the sunshine and be outside for five minutes. You can do that. But it's so easy to get convinced that you can't or you or you don't have time or it's so easy, I think to get on that hamster wheel. And it is hard when you start claiming more of that time and that's definitely something for me professionally, I needed support around and like, definitely needed that money. Not all debit for me then to coworkers when I was in production, like we had a lunch club and we would literally take a lunch break, we would like, decide on a time all sit down, we all took turns, you know, making stuff and everything. And it was like, we would usually take like a half hour, you know, like nothing crazy. And if the if our days were nuts, we would just sort of, you know, kind of do a quick buffet and then part ways or whatever. But it was like, we no one was going to cordially invite us to do that. Like, we had to kind of like put our foot down and be like, we need half an hour to just like eat and figure out like, take a breath, you know, like, because, you know, once you get back to it, it's gonna be crazy. It's gonna be relentless. And so for me, it's been a real journey learning that like if I will tend to, especially to my physical needs that generally my my mental will be better. I'll be clear I'll be I'll do better work. But the amount of days that I have to fight with myself just to eat fucking lunch, like I am a goddamn toddler is insane where I'll be like, no, no, no, just want to finish one more thing after this. Something I think that happens a lot is to what you're speaking to have people chalk things up to like either not being a big deal, or being mysterious. And it's so like these 13 warning signs that you're heading for burnout number one, having a net negative and critical attitude at work, to dreading going into work and wanting to leave once you're there. Three having low energy and little interest at work for having trouble sleeping five being absent from work a lot six having feelings of emptiness seven experiencing physical complaints such as headaches, illness or backache

is literally like describing my life at One Voice

for Real eight being easily irritated by a team members or clients. Nine having thoughts that your work does it have meaning or make a difference? 10 pulling away emotionally from your colleagues or clients? Why do you seem so distant coworker 11 feeling that your work and contribution goes unrecognized? 12 blaming others for your mistakes 13 You're thinking of quitting work or changing roles. Now, like, I feel like a lot of those are kind of common, you know, definitely hearing a lot about them. I also think it's tricky, because like, some of those could just be like you're having a bad week, you know, or you're having just like a bad time, or you're maybe on a bad project or something. And some of them are more indicative of like, something's wrong. And I thought something was really interesting about that having feelings of emptiness. Because I have definitely felt that way. And it's a really uncomfortable and upsetting feeling. And I think I was like, oh, oh boy, like, I have no idea what to do with this. Or it was like this weird balance between like, this does feel big, I probably should pay attention to it. But also, like, it is so big that like, it scares me I'm going to just like, you know, pundit over there, that I think there's some piece about like, validating, like, things don't always have to be like, horrible for or abusive or toxic to also just, like, be burning you out or not work for you or not be a fit that I know for me, I am so I'm so much more predisposed to like not taking these things as a sign that something's wrong. But thinking like I need to work harder to counter them. And I think that that's something that's wrong. That's something I'm learning now.

I think that's a common sign of burnout. It's like one of the, one of the symptoms or one of the is just like this kind of cyclical, like I must work harder. I must just, you know, keep going I have to I can do I can outrun this or I can if I work more than then it'll kind of subside. I feel like it also is you know, because it's not just work related. Sometimes you can leave right so so yes, listen, you sometimes you can't leave your job right away. But what if burnouts happening in your personal life? Right? Sometimes I think it's, I mean, I always think it's a sign that we need to kind of take a beat and take a moment and maybe see somebody or talk to somebody about it, or just prioritize ourselves differently, but it's this nudge that we need to look And into something right. So if it's happening in your personal life and you feel like burned out at home, what are our options, right? Like, if you are a parent and you feel burned out, and I think also often about people with multiple children like, and, and multiple children who work from home or multiple children who are single parent, a single parent, like, there has to be this level of, if you're worried about your child, if your child goes to public school, for instance, and you're worried about their safety, or you are just a parent, and are managing so much, how do you, you can't live your life, and you wouldn't want to write most people. So what do you do, I feel like there have to be, I mean, we're obviously not going to sit around and wait for systems to to pop up because 10 structures to help us because they're not coming, nobody's coming to save us, we're on our own, we're screwed. So we have to help ourselves. And I think I think what I'm really opening to is organizing in small ways in small groups has been really helpful to the people in my community, I can see like, having the yoga class, if you can go to it, or, you know, even checking in with your friend for five minutes and asking them, you know, if they can, like hold your trash and being like, Can I just talk for five minutes, and then offer the same to them, but these little pockets of space and time have to be have to be prioritized, especially for people who are caretakers, I think, and that's just something we don't teach and we don't help with, right? So many parents are burnt out, not just mom's parents, but a lot of them happened to be mothers.

I think any time that your life feels like just a series of to do lists, is not you don't it doesn't feel good. You know that. And that's not to say like, oh, you're, you're no, you're a single parent, like, you gotta go find party times. But like, when reading about burnout, nursing came up a lot nurses, which makes a lot of sense. A lot of medical people been burning out at a rate that we've never seen before, then for very good reason. And one of the top things recognized in terms of dressing or countering burnout was interpersonal relationships was connection, was seeking connection. And I was thinking about, like, how, I mean, because essentially, to if you think about and you read even through, like, if you think about, like, what the symptoms of burnout are, like, it's a disconnect, you know, like, if it's like a profound disconnect, do you feel like you're doing all this stuff, and it's not doing anything? In a way, you know, and I have something that I thought about is like, burnout to me has a little bit and this might be my personal story. I'll be curious how you feel about it. But burnout has a little bit of like, a heartbreak grief thing to Oh, like, oh, yeah, this thing I thought it would be or this thing I've given a lot to like, it's not or, or, you know, like in the context of like, motherhood or something. It's like, I love this, but it's also really hard or what you don't like, there's this little bit of like, heartbreak to it and grieving, which is like, also really exhausting, on top of like, being so depleted. And I know for me, whenever I've been in those states, I mean, shit I'm in when now and trying to figure that out. It is really about calling my energy back to myself and really being permissive about what feels good and like connection.

I'm absolutely convinced that the reason that I don't even know if they're connected by the way I'm not a doctor, so don't ask me that I had an ocular migraine, which they thought was a brain tumor last summer is because I was so burned out that I literally just my I remember at that point being so fucking burned out. I don't know why I was I was running myself into the ground. And I was using my like, self care practices to like, but turning up the volume so much instead of turning it down, like I would spin when I really needed to do like Pilates or something right. Or I would like just work myself up, because I was so angry. And a lot of what I'm reading have read to is how closely related burnout and depression are.

Yeah, I mean, they seem real similar, don't they?

Exactly. So sometimes, like I really thought I was feeling depressed asked which I was because I just was so felt so weighed down by the world. And I've just hearing sad stuff on top of like, sometimes it's really difficult to not look at the world through just a negative lens when you hear a lot of bad stuff, and then you hear a lot about stuff. And then you hear a lot about stuff. So it was happening at work a lot around that time. And then, you know, everything that was happening outside of that, so in the external, so I just, I feel like it's really important. And that happened to me in my career in New York to where I was really depressed. I mean, yes, I wanted to get the fuck out of my job. But I was also really depressed. And it was hard for me to acknowledge that. And so I just kept working myself harder and harder. And then so I was burnt out, but I was also depressed. And that, and those two things coinciding, were like, that was a recipe for just utter disaster. And it did turn physical for me in it. And it always, it always has. So the minute I now feel like, my, I feel it in my stomach, or I feel like a little exhausted, but in a different way, just just not even depleted. It's like I'm kind of numb, then I have to really kind of snap myself out of it and be like, Okay, what are we doing to change directions, because it's so easy to choose the cycle that we're already in and just keep going down and down and down. And that, obviously, is not an easy thing to break. But it's, it's so necessary, and even just saying it out loud, right? Like, a lot of us don't want to ask for help. And I get that. But if we can acknowledge to our partners, or our friend, or anybody that like I'm having a really hard time now, and not in a way that we need to dump our stuff on to someone but just like, I feel really burned out, you know, even saying it just kind of releases something.

For sure. In like, I think something to like, it can be interesting, if you kind of are like, Alright, I'm there, I'm burned out, like I'm not burned out at work. I'm not burnt out in my relationship, like, I'm burnt out in life, like the big one, you know, it also I think, is helpful then to start figuring out why, like, I'm someone I don't, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, but to to but like, I'm a very capable person, I am someone if people need help, or want to bounce an idea off someone or, like being an opinion or something like is me, you know, and I started to feel so like, I was just like, I don't, I don't got it, you know? And I was like, Well, you have to stop also playing this role. If you feel like a lot of the people in your life are too reliant upon you. Or like, this doesn't feel good to you. Like you don't want to be everyone's Google. Like, you have to quit being there. Google, you know, and it was interesting for me to figure out like, you know, burnout doesn't always just happen to you. Yeah, or it doesn't always look like you think it's going to like, I think for me, it is like a I think I feel a sense of myself being like, eroded. And I'm like God and a pattern that is going to keep like sanding me down, you know, and then I kind of spiral out and be like, Oh my God, my brother is gonna be texting me forever about stuff, you know, like, and, and so it just zaps my energy even more, when I could just be like, just don't engage.

Like, you mean accountability? Yeah,

I mean, but I think sometimes it's like, it's obviously it's tough when it's you, you know, when you're in it, because it's like, I also don't want to be mean, or not be helpful. And I'm like, but is it really mean to like, you know, not do what you don't want to do? I don't know. Like, sometimes it is, and sometimes it's not. And I've like, but it's being, but for me, it was like starting to just speak that stuff out loud of like, I'm burnt out on my family's over reliance on me. Okay, what would I What would need to change for me to not feel that way? Okay, what part do I play in that lake? Nothing really changed that quickly. I mean, it's still happening now. You know, but like, just starting to say that stuff out loud. I was like, ah, like space is being corrected or created, you know, and I think sometimes too, like, choosing your battles, like people get wild and my DNS and people constantly DM me being like, how do I book a session or can you do a reading for me right now or did it and I was getting so worn out by that and replying. And both my therapist, Nina, multiple people in my life are like, stop fucking replying. And I'm like, but But it's, but it's my business. And that's, you know, and it's rude. And it's like, are those the clients you want? Are those the interaction they

have more questions, they will have follow up questions.

And like, they're not helping themselves. They're probably also

the people that will never book FYI. Because as you know, it's

100,000 petroleum percent. If you're burnt out giving energy to people who do not return it, like, quit doing it, you know, it's like, and so that, to me is like these people DMing like, just trust, don't think those people are not going to make or break your business. Just trust that you can go I no longer engage with people who DM me that, you know, with business questions, either find my website and email me, or you don't exist to me,

especially now that everybody has now solid I got no wait. Someone came to my class and asked me that, like, they're like, I don't know how to book. I'm like, you knew where the class was. So I'm the same sign. As the time of the class. It literally says, oh, yeah, my my, you know how clear I am like I am. My website's, like, straight to the point. It's

easy. You literally just has the day and thoughts are available. And it literally says

on this on the sign though it says reserved here. And there's a thing that people can scan on their phone, or they can go to my site that is spelled out. But I'm like, part of what I've realized is that we're so burned out as a culture that people can't read anymore. And I'm not even saying that says, No, but listen, hear me out. Hear me out. Okay.

I'll go for the read. Okay,

thank you. A lot of it is like, people, frankly, are lazy. And I don't mean to be an asshole. But that's just the truth. Thank you. And I will receive, yes, now you can just kick your feet up knowing that I think most people are lazy. And what they don't really want is to do the thing. So like someone asked me the other day, like someone posted my Tarot thing after they had a reading, which was so sweet. And someone said, How do I book? And I was like, here we go. And also it's right on the link. But anyway, I just said, Here you go. And no, of course they don't book because which is fine. But like, if they really wanted to do the thing, nobody has problems finding the links on my website, like or the on my Instagram or whatever. Like it's all literally right there. So anyway, what I mean is I'm noticing that people are so checked out mentally, because I think that they're tending much more to themselves emotionally, but not really. What I mean by that is, I think people are so emotionally devastated, but are not sure how to deal and they're, they're just, they don't understand where to put energy, where to put their energy, right. So it's like, if you can say to yourself, like, wow, it's a it's a lot to be in the world right now. Like, I'm really sad about this thing that happened, or I'm feeling really overwhelmed by this, then you can kind of like, acknowledge that take a moment and then clear some space in your brain to be like, I would like to book a taro appointment. How do I go about doing that? But if you're in this constant fog, and this constant haze, then you're you're not even realizing like what you're doing. And I think it's just people beings like zombies

Yeah, the lack. Also of like, common sense, self awareness is also sort of shocking sometimes that I don't always know how to be like, I want to be compassionate. I don't want to be judgmental. I really don't as much as I love to be bitchy and petty sometimes I really don't want to be that way. I just accept that there's part of me that is and yet I just sometimes I'm like, like, where I'm just how I don't you know, like, I'm like, it's just it's a struggle sometimes that I'll be honest that right now as people who deal a lot with other people that is absolutely burning me out right now.

We I have a thing that I want to read to you. Please do so there's there was an experiment this is in psychological science.org My fav you know what I mean? Just your pores

always on there. It's like I'm cruising the cut and then I'm going over to psychological

science.org I love the.org Like, you know, it's gonna be already, I mean, if it's not it needs to be. So two groups. I, you know, given they were given some, some experiment in just experimented with these two groups one was burned out. One was not the two groups show key differences in the MC way. How do you say this? I always get confused amygdala amygdala? Yes, I think you said, a brain structure that is critical to emotional reactions, including fear, and aggression. The amygdala was not only relatively enlarged among participants in the burnout group, but also they also appeared to have significantly stronger connections between the amygdala and the brain areas linked to emotional stress, the more stressed an individual reported feeling, the stronger the correlations between these brain regions were on the MRI. Which I just think is so interesting, because like, how much aggression and fear that's why I'm I have gotten more aggressive, even though I've gotten calmer, I've also gotten more aggressive, like, I'm angry, and I'm angriest when I'm burned out. And I'm like, Why can't you learn to drive? Why can't you read the sign? What, Why, why? Why? Why? Why, you know, so I think it's, it's really interesting that it was actually like, scientifically proven that this, like, they have this enlarged part of the brain like that, that it actually starts to grow. It's been crazy.

Yeah, that I mean, it makes sense. I mean, if you figure, you know, meditation can carve new mental, you know, neural pathways and things like that. Like, why would another things have effects on us? You know, like, why wouldn't stress or prolong burnout or whatever? You know, like, of course, it does that doesn't know me. I think some of what frustrates me. Is the youth. Don't have time, Anna. I know, I know. And people what do you think is the difference between people struggling with just being young, which isn't always I think the most it's like your personal life is sometimes the most fun you've ever had. But your work life is not. I hear a lot of the you talking about being burnt out in a way that I don't know, is burnout.

I will that's interesting that you say that because I think what's the

difference between burnout and just not being happy, you know,

reducing burnout and emotional immaturity.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, truly, what what's the difference between emotional burnout and being kind of, like over it? I titled, yes, yes, sorry. I like it, this is a big problem, that I have a new client who was young, and I swear, I swore I would never take anybody in their 20s. Again, because I was like, just come to me in your 30s. Like, I just cannot. But she's on the older end. And she's really mature in a lot of ways. And I said that to her, because she, you know, can like, she just seems to have a lot more awareness. And she has like a really great worth work ethic, and is really responsible and responsive, etc. And I just find that a lot of the youth that I have encountered, have not had to work for it, whatever it is, as much and I think we're doing the strange thing where we're coddling people, but we're not arming them with any sort of tools at all. So it's like, you think that they're, yes, emotionally, like, taken care of, in some way, but they're actually not like, they're, it's, it's odd, because you're just like, forcing feeding them this, like, you can have whatever you want. And like, you know, just do you and like, that's great. But you also have to be like, Okay, so here's how the world is set up. And it's, it's not friendly to that, like it's not, it's not going to welcome you with open arms, and people are not going to just, like open the front door for you and be like, come take a seat at the head of the table. And you do need to know how to navigate difficult situations and you know, power struggles and work your way up, like whatever that means that I still believe in that I don't believe in like the corporate world, you know, for me, but I don't believe that we just like slide out of college and are like, I'm the boss like, No, you're not.

Yeah, I mean, confident. The best thing I've seen about it is like confidence doesn't replace knowledge and experience. And, I mean, we've all been there and you can be the brightest shiniest star, but like, if you don't, if you log the time, you're not an expert. You're You're, you're you know, like, and I think that there's become this attitude as well that anytime you're unhappy or uncomfortable or something doesn't feel Good that it's like abuse. And I think that a lot of the people who like are like, Oh my God, my boss is so toxic. She like asked me to be on time and stuff. And I'm like, That just tells me nothing bad has ever happened to you in your life?

Well, that's the whole Yeah, I mean, that being uncomfortable in a situation because you just it's like, or I should say being uncomfy is not the same as like, being uncomfortable, where you're like, Oh, this is like, I feel something that I really don't like, and is not good for me and is not healthy. That's different than being like, Oh, I don't really want to, like I have maybe period like, yeah. Yeah, like I just like went out a little bit last night and like, broke up with my boyfriend. First of all, when I used to call out of work, because I was having, you know, a 20s. Like, oh, I would lie, obviously, like, you lie. Sideways, like you don't, you're not like, oh, my god, me. And my boyfriend had a huge fight last night. So like, I just can't, you know, like, I'd be like, I'm physically ill, and I won't be able to make it in today. And I will still work from my bed. By the way, I will always make

it home. Yes, it's either some sort of issue that you don't want to get into. Because it's just you gross. I'll spare you, you know, and then it I mean, no, not really. But usually, if you're just like, Yeah, I think I have food poisoning. Like, there you go. You've got your 24 hours clear. Like, let me in. And I tell you right now that if you are using work, or you know, your boss or something like is therapy and being like, I just, you know, like mercury retrograde and I got into a fight, like, Stop, they're rolling their eyes after you know, and stop. Yeah, it's not. It's not the it's not what you think. It's not you. It's not empowerment is No.

And why don't we're not friends. And I'm sorry. But

data is very strict about friendship, which I think is very fun.

I feel like I'm opening myself up a little bit more.

But no, but I think your good. Friendship isn't friendship, like, You're right

now you're fucking friends. I would never be like, hey, bad. Yeah. And my and my industry is partied like, yours did too. Like, yeah, read fucking raged. And it would be so easy. I remember picking up my boss from, we're at, like, the club. And I was like, these people are, like, have they never partied before, like, I've these people party for a living, and she was like, falling on me. And I'm like, I'm 20 something and you're like, in your 50s. Like, get it together, but she couldn't find her bag anyway, the point is, it would be really easy. And I think it's really easy to think that everybody's like, your bestie. And a lot of the language doesn't really help, right? A lot of this. We that. It doesn't it doesn't like I'm sorry, but we I'm burnt out personally on people who aren't professional. And I know that makes me sound archaic. But I'm all for like, you know, an A nice, like, casual email, but I, I would like us all to, like, get back a little bit to, you know, greeting someone signing it, you know, not just like, Hey, girl, you know, XOXO let me DM us. That's just not it's, it's just not buttoned up. And I think if you want to do anything in the world, and people to take if you want people to take you seriously, you have to have a certain level of professionalism.

Yeah, I also think it's tricky because like, women are often I understand that a lot of women are doing that because they think they have to ingratiate themselves in order to be heard or to get things done, or they don't want to be like labeled the bitch. But I would say acting like you're a teenager long after you're not is maybe not the look either. And I mean in I get it like I love the X there. I think it's a Chrome extension you can get that will scan your emails and replace certain words with more like affirmative language who really? Yeah, it'll take sorry, out it will take all Yeah, it'll do a couple different things. And I do think that it's good and like, you know, I had a friend pointed out to me, she was like quit saying like, I think she's like, it's a way you're trying to soften it. Just say what you just say what it is. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, and I started noticing that and I was like, Oh yeah, I'm always trying to like I say, like, I think so I don't like step on toes or whatever. That there's a way to like be yourself but also not be sloppy and listen, if you're fresh out of college, I get it like, you know, even if you work during college generally that's more i don't know I would say more service oriented. Like it's not in an office, generally, you may not have that experience, you know, but like, that's a place to maybe humble yourself and like, follow other people's lead, you know, and don't assume you know, or assume like coming in hot the way you want to, or I think like, something you need, and I've noticed and talked about a lot is like, when people assume a level of like familiarity that may not be there. So like, give give familiarity, maybe some time before your, your like being like, why, you know, I think it's also really helpful to be connected to your inner baby, and your inner brat. And that helps me sometimes when I'm like, hmm. Or like, I hate it, or this person's terrible or whatever. Is it like, am I burnt out? Or am I just feeling bratty today? You know, or am I just kind of in a baby mood? Because, like, you know, things have been difficult or, you know, it's like, oh, I have to deal with this. You know, like, I think that that can be helpful as well, because I feel like with this culture now of like diagnosing everything and pathologizing everything that like, does it always help us to label something? You know, it, I have a lot of friends that keep talking about burnout, but that's it, they're not talking about getting a new job. They're not talking about getting any mental health support. They're not talking about they just keep being like, I'm burnt out, I'm burnt out. I'm burnt out, like, how is just saying that word infinitum. You know, like,

helping, you know, I

feel that way about trauma as well. Trauma, depression, burnout, like narcissism, like a couple of these things. I'm just like, these words are losing me.

It's like, it's how I feel about sorry, you know, it's just Oh, yes. Just don't tell me you're sorry. I mean, if you're sorry. Great. Like, don't do it. Again, I would appreciate the apology. But there are many words that are losing. It's like when you're really high, and you're like, Cheer, cheer, cheer. Yeah.

And you're like, has it been that word the whole time? Exactly. You're like, you're like, yeah, totally. You say that about sorry. The other day, I saw a great thing. I was either on Instagram or on Twitter that was like, you know, like, no more saying, Sorry, just as a way to, like, shut the conversation down or something. You know, like, I think sorry, has. I also think so many people say it as a way just to like, like, gain permission, like I'm on a couple group taxed. And there's a couple of people that like, you know, they'll just keep busy in their lives. And then it's this whole always this big thing of, like, Sorry, Sorry, I've been on the chain. Sorry, sorry. And I tell them every single time quit apologizing, like, you're not in trouble, and you're not sorry, if you were sorry, you wouldn't keep doing it. I think, you know, like, in my opinion, I

think that's why people's way of being like, you know, see me I'm busy, you know, like I want

or I think it's acknowledging like, Hey, I'm acknowledging, I've dropped off. Yeah, fine. I

think some people want to acknowledge it, for sure. And then I think some people want you to know that they're busy. And like people love to be busy. True, they love to be feel. I don't think that I think we're addicted obviously not a heartache to stress. And so I don't think people I don't think people are dummies. I mean, I think there are a lot of people who could use, you know, a little, like refinement in that area. But I think that there for the most part, we're just what you were talking about how 90% of the thoughts we think every day are the same. Right? Was that Yeah,

maybe? I don't know. Oh, well, I was seeing well, like we we only like know what we know so if you're overthinking your you're you're not generating any new information.

Well, one so where I will have to figure out where where this actually is that could be obviously not 90% but a large amount of what we cycled through every day in our minds is the same as the day before so I think a lot of people are just so have such tunnel vision that they don't even realize that they have a choice number one that they have Yeah, agency that they have like a different pathway. It's very much like eight of swords, you know,

do you think a lot of people are just I mean, it's something I talk about with Tarot clients is they're waiting for the life raft. Yeah, I'm like, magical is not

a magical solution. I 100% like all know, when I know or it'll be time when it's time or like, wind up and it's like, that shit is not happening. So I don't I the older I get the more in the work that I we do. I don't think everybody's made for the life that you and I I live certainly not like I don't think and that's what makes the world go round. Like everybody's different. I don't think everybody who hates their job should quit their job and like work for themselves. I do not think that. However, there are ways to live traditionally, if that's what you're into, or, you know, within, like your comfort zone and still not feel like shit. There are ways to do that. So we do have to take accountability at some point, and be like, Okay, well, if I don't have that many options, what are the options that I do have? And how can I really be disciplined about making little steps toward that I saw a client of mine the other day at Pilates. And I was like, you know, told her to come to this class with me if she wanted. And she was like, I'm, I'm doing it, like I'm doing the things. I'm not just talking about them. And I'm like, I'm so proud of you. And you could just see, I swear, I've known her for years, she was like, I feel stronger. Like I feel stronger. She signed up for like, a bunch of these classes. So it's not that all the time, but for her just getting herself moving and committing to a different practice and out of her comfort zone. But was so she was like, I reached out to a career coach, like, I'm making connections. She was really, really starting to move. And I was like, Yes, this is and she was be is beyond beyond beyond burnout was her big career, etc. So it is like a lot, we can talk ourselves in circles all fucking day long. And it's not that your pain isn't absolutely justified. It's not that maybe your boss is an asshole. Maybe you have student loans piled like up the fucking ass. But there's something you can do in your life to shift something.

Yeah, I agree. And you touched on a few things that I think are important in the sense of like, things can like your can, your experience can be valid. And it's also your has to solve. And I also think, ego gets involved in burnout. And it does for me, so I'm offering this to anyone else that ego that it was really illuminating. I haven't really talked about it here, but I will now I guess. But you know, I parted ways with the dead parents club Gauss for a couple of different reasons. But some of it was also do grief work isn't for me, that it's it's just two sided. But I just found your Shocking. Shocking, yeah. But it's like, I didn't know, I didn't realize until I took some space from it, that it didn't work for me, you know, that some of the ways I was feeling some of the ways I was feeling this deep sadness and stuff. And like, it also was really difficult to control from like a boundaries perspective. And like, I was, you know, like, already have to deal with enough boundaries in my life that I was like, I don't need this other component. You know, there was just a multitude for reasons that I was like, I trust the experience was what it was, I received the healing I needed. I don't have to do this work, I don't think is for me, in order to have that healing, or, I don't know, I think sometimes it's like, it is just a bummer. You know, when I worked at IFC, it was really difficult for me at times, because I had a manager that sucked and didn't really get my value. And my friend gave me such a gift when she was like, it's just not, it's just not a good fit. It's not a good fit. Like, it doesn't mean you're doing bad work, or it doesn't mean like it's just not a good fit. And that can be so hard. You know, like, I think that burnout has an element almost like, like breakup energy, where you're like, Oh, like this should work on paper, but like, it just doesn't work. You know, like, if I'm

better, I can make it work, right? Or if I like figure out

a way, we'll just like accepting that it doesn't, you know, exactly like, I can't do more or I can't, you know, like,

we're gonna have to, yeah, I

don't have to in even if I did, it wouldn't fix it. Like, this just isn't a fit. You know, like, I think I felt defensive with like DPC, for example. Because I was like, I have a lot of experience, you know, with holding space for people, you know, well trained for this, but it's like, yeah, it doesn't matter. You know, and my therapist gave me a real gift when she said, you know, in general something you come back to over and over again, you know, like where you feel the best and where you can show up the most is in the spectrum of human experience. And I was like, she's right. Like, I don't know that for me, I want to be that 100% focused on anything, you know, besides myself, but I just was like, Yeah, like that. I mean, even if it had been, like, love or something, you know, I that probably wouldn't have worked for me either. But like, I think it's so easy for the ego to get involved and be like, I should be able to do this, or I don't want to admit I can't, or this doesn't work for me or whatever. And I just want to tell anyone who might be in that space right now. Here, here's, it's me, the ghost of, of the future burnout, you know, the freedom you will feel when you let something go, that is grinding you down, will far outweigh whatever torture your ego was telling you was far more important. Like, every time I let go of something, or go, like, you just don't have to do it. Or it just doesn't work or whatever. The second I let it go. I'm always like, oh, man, I feel so much better. And I just want to remind everyone that ghost of like, you know, future freedom from burnout, let go. wants to remind you of that, that, like, the relief is there, if you'll if you'll give it to

yourself. Yeah, I would say in adding, as we wrap up that, you also, it doesn't have to define you and this thing that is burning you out doesn't even if it's something that you really love and want and cherish. You know, if it's not work, if it's family, like it still doesn't define you. So there's a way to, I think what we often do is instead of separating ourselves in a healthy way, we numb and then we be then we become so immersed in the thing that we don't get a chance to, to, to detach in a way that would actually be like, okay, when I leave, like, I'm not that person, so I can just be me at dinner. I don't have to be like me that job, right? But because we don't prioritize that. We're like, I'm my job. Like, I can't just like leave my job, like, the job is me. I am the job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, no, no, that's not what it is. But we drink the Kool Aid. And that's very much what a lot of companies want us, you know, less way less. Now people are like, whatever I'm done, and then it's all just got a new job and like great power to you. I mean, eventually, you're going to run into other problems. But that's for another podcast. But I would say you are not the thing. You don't have to prove it to anybody. You don't have to prove it to yourself. And there's no, there's no prize at the end. So yeah, whatever you're like trying to get to even if it is a ton of money or security or it kind of falls flat if you're not well taken care of internally.

Yeah. I don't think for anything that's really meant for you. You have to suffer in a way like, work hard shore sacrifice. Maybe like who knows? Yes.

100. Like, like, as a mom. Soccer? Yeah. But

like, if what you're doing is like, killing you. Like, I don't, I'm at a point where I don't know if if I believe it will net you what you desire. I just don't know, I don't know, I feel almost like those things energetically are opposed. So I to Nina's point, like, if letting go of something, like part of why I like friends make fun of me all the time, because I'm like taking classes all the time. And they're like, you ever gonna graduate and it's like, part of I can get so immersed in things that I keep myself pretty well rounded, so that I can try to have a bit of an objectivity when I evaluate if things work for me. So if you know your career, for example, is killing you, but you're like, but I, you know, like, it's all I got, you know, it's all I focused on. Don't let that keep you there. Just know the work for you is like rounding out the rest of your life. You know, it's figuring out what do you like to do in your spare time? It's those sorts of things. It's like, don't just stay at a thing that's like, making you feel worse. You know, like I think a lot of people to the whatever's causing the burnout also lets them like, like what lets him escape in a way. So it can be helpful to just sort of go like yeah, okay, I'm going to change to this thing, it's going to be a little bit of an upheaval. And it means I'm also going to have to figure out like, you know what hobbies I like, you know to do. It was very illuminating for me when I was watching this hearing what they're called now, of course, oh EBk electronic press kit for Beyonce. I worked at Sony when her solo album came out very exciting times. And so she was being interviewed about life, post Destiny's Child. And she was saying, like, it was such a bizarre time for her because she had been a part of a group for so long. And I've been trying to do things with death Destiny shot for so long. She didn't know who she was. She's like, I didn't really know what might influence and she had this big thing of like, she didn't know what types of movies she liked. Because it was always like, someone just decided or put something on in the tour bus. So she said about figuring out what kind of movies she'd liked. And something about that of someone who's so talented has such a perspective, obviously, you know, being like, vulnerable and candid about like, I didn't even know what kind of movie I liked, was like, really impactful for me that like, you know, you don't have to know everything, and you can always be open to discovering it. But you're not going to be able to do that when you're miserable. You're gonna have to have a little bit of space to

do it. Yes. Oh, great. Well, go figure out what movies you like. Go figure. In conclusion, go figure out what movies you like and music. I'm always a big fan of telling people to go get into some new tunes. Well, thanks for hanging out with us guys. We'll talk to you next week. We'll talk at you next week. That's all for today's episode.

If you're interested in submitting a topic, or want to submit a question for advice episode, please join our membership community at how to be human pod.com. Thanks for listening. And remember, we're guides not gurus.