[00:00:00] Digital dominoes. Hello and welcome to our special series where we share the moving stories of parents who have had to become privacy champions for their children, specifically within the school environment. These stories are about the moments when those parents realized that they needed to take action to protect their children's digital lives at school by sharing them.

We aim to [00:00:30] motivate other parents to do the same today. I'm here with Daniel Knight, who is in Spain, and he's going to tell his story of how he became a privacy parent. Thank you so much for being here and being willing to tell your story. Thank you. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to speak about it.

I think it's really important to speak openly about it and to build awareness on this topic, which is a growing concern for parents all over the world. This is really something that [00:01:00] unites, I don't know how many countries because tech companies are all over and anywhere these companies, Apple, Google, Microsoft are, they're getting into schools.

So this is a universal worldwide issue. Absolutely. And it's a huge commercial opportunity for these companies. So, do you want to tell about maybe a little bit about your kids and the school they go to and how you had your aha moment to realize that you had to take some of this into your own hands? [00:01:30] Yes, I definitely had an aha moment.

Like any parent, I was completely unaware of the potential dangers until I was confronted with it and until my kids basically suffered from that. But yeah, we're here in Spain, in the city of Valencia. Uh, my wife is Spanish, I'm Australian. All of the story revolves around primary school. Starting with first year in primary school, which is when we started to have concerns about his access [00:02:00] to technology and then later on his own personal private data potentially being exposed for commercial gain.

So yeah, it all started in first-year primary, like I said, not too far into the year, actually, uh, when he started to have nightmares, and he was recounting images that he'd seen. Which I became quickly aware that these were images that he was seeing on the internet. And it took me a little bit of a while to digest that and [00:02:30] to be able to speak through it with him and understand exactly what these images were.

It turned out that these were trailers for movies. One of them was a Captain America movie with Black Widow that he was tortured by the image of Black Widow jumping onto a boat and fighting bad guys on a boat and he was mixing this all up with another trailer that he'd seen for a movie called Death in Venice So you can imagine for a parent I'm getting two completely [00:03:00] disparate pieces of information all blended in together in a nightmare.

And I wasn't sure where it was all coming from. And it turns out that he was accessing YouTube at school. The school did it openly that they were using YouTube as an educational application. And, uh, I contacted the school via email first, telling them the story. And then I understood that he had access to YouTube and that I was concerned about the impact it was having on him.

But also its. [00:03:30] educational value, because frankly, I, I didn't understand how YouTube could be used as a educational tool. The response that I got from the school was it's the law, the Spanish law requires us to teach YouTube to your child. Although that's what the email said, I took it as perhaps we, there was some miscommunication and I took the opportunity to speak, uh, with the teacher.

She basically said to me the same thing. It's the law and we're obliged to teach these [00:04:00] things to your children. Check out the law. And I, I started digging into the law and I continued this conversation with the teacher debating the educational value and, you know, whether or not YouTube was in the law or not, because I was trawling through the law, as you can imagine, it's a very big generalized document and I couldn't find the words YouTube anywhere and, uh, she started to get frustrated and said, well, it's the law and that's it.

And I told her that just because something wasn't, was the law, [00:04:30] uh, I didn't consider that to be a valid explanation for why we should use it. And it should be open to debate with the school board and with the director. In this year, when my son was six, my wife was the president of the parent association, and it had started to cause friction between her and the director of the school.

And because she had to communicate with them and work with them, she kind of told me, okay, just take it easy and try to calm down. During these conversations [00:05:00] between her and the director, the director told her, Oh yes, yes, yes, we're very much into technology in the school. We're tech friendly, and we see that as the future, and we want to go full throttle on the technology, and in fact, a year ago we had a conversation with Google, and you know, Google were very interested in turning this school into the Silicon Valley of Spain.

The director said that the only reason it wasn't done, and the school didn't go full tech, was because Google [00:05:30] insisted on having their logo painted on the front of the school, and the Department of Education told them they couldn't do that. Wait, is this a private school or a public school? Ah, no, this is a public school.

In fact, I should have mentioned. Wow. Yes, this is a public school. This shocked me because I didn't realize that a school, a public school could make such decisions independent of the Department of Education. I totally understand it if it's private, but in a public sphere, it really shocked me.

That's really [00:06:00] interesting to think about that such a big, powerful tech company can go to individual schools because it's widely known that obviously this tech revolution came, it's coming extremely quickly, and any kind of education, preparation about it to adults who are just going about their life is very well behind.

School directors will be focused on trying to Be the [00:06:30] best school, get the best education, and who knows how much time they'll actually have to think about these things, privacy, and tech, impacts of tech, and tech companies have basically, they can sell themselves quite well, so I think there's quite a big power imbalance there.

Yeah, and you make a very good point about the imbalance of power in these situations, because they do come fully prepared. Maybe in the Department of Education, they're more aware [00:07:00] of it in individual schools knowledge is scarce. And in my particular school, the way that I see it is that they sold it on the aspect of simplifying and creating more efficiencies for the staff, more than the children.

Do you know how much they, just to give an idea of how much did they use the Chromebooks compared to the traditional books, since they didn't become like a full Silicon Valley school? How was the balance between tech and, [00:07:30] uh, and non tech in first grade, just to remind we're talking about first grade now.

I was totally unbalanced and this is the reason why I continued to uh, try to discuss the issue with the school, debate it. My son had one book, which was a math, mathematics book, an activity book, but that book was useless without the application. And the rest of the activities, language, science, and social studies were all being done on the Chromebook through either third party applications or through the [00:08:00] Google Suite.

How were the other parents reacting to this? I had two parents that wanted to support me in a class of 30 kids. I couldn't get anybody else, but my other son who's two years younger and was in a pre primary at the same school, the whole class were interested to, to learn about what I was talking about.

And they became my, basically my base of support. I got no support from people in the primary level, not even in second year, third year or fourth year. [00:08:30] I found a parent in fifth year. Who, uh, agreed with me and thought that there were major concern, not only in terms of whether or not it was doubtful that this was going to be good for your education and also for data privacy.

And, and that's really been the, the data protection has really been the smoking gun because at the end of the day, conversations went back and forward. It was like a game of tennis with the school, my opinion versus their opinion and finding out about the Chromebook case in Denmark and the clear [00:09:00] violation of data protection law here in, in Europe, the GDPR, that's what really hooked me in the conversation with the school.

Actually, Jesper was the previous episode. I focused on the moment that Jesper realized how this whole Chromebook case came about, so we didn't go into the development, especially in terms of GDPR, uh, which for anybody, this is the General Data Protection Regulation, which is one of [00:09:30] the strictest in the world, actually, we're quite protected in the EU and it's interesting.

Absolutely eye-opening to understand this whole school tech perspective from the point of GDPR because nonexpert, I believe both of us at least were, you expect that children in schools are protected by GDPR. But it's just not what Jesper has discovered in Denmark. It's really not [00:10:00] so straightforward, right?

No, not at all. And everyone is clueless. Everyone. On both sides of the argument. The school board, the government themselves, the parents, the teachers, and of course the students. We're all totally clueless of what's going on, what data is being transferred. The only people that know what's going on are the big tech companies.

That are managing the software and the operating systems and the applications. They're the only ones. This is what's been shown in the case in Denmark. [00:10:30] And the shocking thing is that in Denmark, although the case seems completely black and white to anyone who reads it, anyone knows about Jesper and follows him on LinkedIn, even though it's so black and white, the government is incapable of making a ruling against technology in schools.

Exactly. Yeah. Because I remember in the case of Jesper that they. In the outset, maybe about a year back, the schools tried to pull the technology out immediately, like in one swift movement, [00:11:00] and the school collapsed. They couldn't teach the kids. The technology had been so fully integrated that the teachers were incapable of managing a day of teaching children without the Chromebooks.

That's a really good point about what you said. I was talking to someone the other day, and he was saying about if you do a digital transformation in a company, you would never just take a device and without talking to anybody and informing everybody and finding out what their real needs are, just [00:11:30] here you go.

This is your new process, this is your new device. But that's been what's been happening in a lot of schools. And it's really important to, to point out that it's one of the main reasons that this whole series about privacy parents, why I'm doing it. It's because it's not, I don't want to blame. It's easy to blame someone for not knowing.

It's easy for, to blame someone for having made a decision before getting informed from an expert or to [00:12:00] blame tech from taking advantage of, but that's not going to get us anywhere. It's not going to get us anywhere. And what we need to do is ask questions like you and other privacy parents are asking questions, pointing out, and that's what I personally want to achieve is to have more people ask questions to their school.

Oh, by the way, what kind of agreements do you have with tech? What's happening with the data and what do my kids have access to at school? What [00:12:30] can I not control? Absolutely. The question has to be posed to every single school that has technology integrated in it. And because if the question is not asked, the school is not asking themselves.

They're not analyzing their own system. They're taking it on willingly and without a proper consideration of impact. In my own case, because my son was using a Chromebook and using the Google suite of software, he was given a Gmail account. [00:13:00] And I became aware that the, the gmail account was his name at gmail dot com.

Uh, and it, in terms of anything that the school could tell me beyond that about protection of data was pointless. Because putting an, an email account, which became his username on any single piece of application or software or even to access the Chromebook. He accessed it with his name. So from that point onwards, the data is leaked.

So crazy, even with his photo, [00:13:30] which is just, just bizarre. I can't understand how any adult could consider that that wouldn't be dangerous for a child. Yeah, this is one of the difficulties that when I, a year ago, myself started to be more interested in privacy. I realized that the advantages are so well marketed and so well known of just giving a little bit of information.

And there's such a [00:14:00] low awareness of risks, like the real risks. I've spoken to a privacy expert the other day in the U. S., and she had spent the whole morning blocking credit reports for a four year old or something, and I was like, why would you do that? And then she explained, because children's identities can be stolen for taking out credit when they're young, and by the time they figure it out when they're 18 and they have to look for credit, then someone has been creating a [00:14:30] credit history for them for the last ten years.

So, you know, these are things that people are absolutely not aware of and yeah, it's a challenge. Absolutely. Yeah. We're so lucky here in Europe to have such a well developed law in the GDPR that looks after our primacy. But at the same time, the fact that no one is aware or very few people are aware of the GDPR nd it's potential that it's not having the impact that it could have in protecting our privacy.

And [00:15:00] if you think about kids, if their data is being so much collected since they were six, um, AI tools are being used to create personality assessments, potential assessments, and the tools are not advanced enough or tested enough to be precise.

Then just freely letting our children's data out into the wild means actually a concrete potential impact on their future [00:15:30] possibilities. And obviously the lower income that a person has, the more likely that they'll just be assessed based on their data. And not based on a personal assessment of a person.

So this can even potentially worsen the social gaps between rich and poor. Absolutely. Yeah, that's true. And it's worth considering as well the fact that they have or could potentially have access to personal private data of children from a [00:16:00] very young age, as young as iin the case of my kids, six years old in first year primary.

He started with the Chromebook and from that point onwards for the rest of his life. What kind of impact that will have on his future as private companies have access to all of this data and you know, when we're talking about private data, I mean, I think it's a very gray area of understanding what is private data.

Is it knowing the child's name? Is it knowing where the child lives? Because in my [00:16:30] era, stranger danger and all of these things that your address where you live, oh, that's very, don't tell a stranger where you live. Or where you go to play or whatever. That's not the limit of what I see as being private data.

For instance, even if the schools could lock down, which I find unrealistic and unreliable, they could lock down all of the private data in terms of age of a child, a child's name, child's address, child's family situation, even if [00:17:00] they could lock down all of those. Yeah, well, we would consider traditionally as being private, personal information, even though they could lock down all that, if the big tech companies had access to the school on a wider scale, think about it as all of the children as a school community, even if they didn't know the child's name, if they had access to 500, 1000 kids in a school, every school across Spain, right?

Thousands and thousands and thousands of kids educating [00:17:30] themselves through these application online, giving away evidence of their likes and dislikes every day, how this information is potentially actually more powerful than the individual's personal data as we traditionally see it. They could build profiles of a generation, which could then be used for marketing of any number of things.

One thing I did want to mention about a Jesper's case is when I spoke to my school about this case, the Chromebook [00:18:00] case in, in Denmark and voiced my concerns and said to them, look, despite the difference of opinion that we have, I have concern over the educational credibility of technology and you debate that that's not clear.

I said, here, we have a clear case. Of a risk to children where it's a matter of protection of personal data more than my own. Personal individual concerns about whether or not this technology [00:18:30] is good in an educational capacity for my children. I said, this is actually a real concern. This is something that I see as more important and beyond the debate about tech in schools and is it good or not.

When I mentioned it to them, they told me this is fake news. This is what I was told. And they even went to the extent of publishing a letter to the entire parent community telling us to be aware of this malicious fake news [00:19:00] that was coming from the north of Europe. Technology was potentially risking our children's private data.

I think that's a good point. It's an uphill battle to say the least. Just start asking questions. The more people who ask questions, more accountability will come. And I think that schools care deeply about kids. They're not, you know, doing anything on purpose, but they have this power imbalance that they're kind [00:19:30] of against.

And all we can do as families and parents and friends is ask questions. And because you did, we can close with something positive, that they did stop using YouTube, right? Yes, absolutely. You didn't get credit for it, but they stopped using it. Yes. Yes. In fact, in the school, because in one of the meetings that I had with the secretary who was managing the integration of technology, I remember very [00:20:00] clearly saying to him that the parent group coming up from pre-primary had a very different perspective on the potential dangers of technology.

And it would be in his best interest to bear that in mind and start paying attention and listening to the voices that were growing in the pre-primary era. From that point on, when my second son was about to begin first year primary, and we had a parent [00:20:30] meeting to introduce the community to the process for starting primary school, they mentioned very clearly in that meeting.

That YouTube was no longer an application used by the school and that it would remain that way. So yeah, there was some progress made. And I would like to add as well on that point that if there are parents out there, particularly here in Europe, And they're having difficulties like me with the schools and trying to get their [00:21:00] opinions appreciated and validated.

There are other means to be able to, to know whether or not the privacy of your child is exposed. You can do this by making what they call an access request to the school or to the department of education, requesting Access to the personal data and how it's being treated. They have to explain to you how the data of your child that they have is being treated, what data they have and how they're [00:21:30] managing to protect that data.

It's called an access request. And I did it. I got a lot of support from an NGO group of lawyers in Austria called NYOB. And they're very much interested in this case and the continuing issue of Chromebooks across Europe. And if anyone wants to contact them, I'm sure they'll get similar support than I did.

And actually that's where I am now that I made that access request to the school and the access request was not answered. And now that [00:22:00] request is being investigated by the Data Protection Authority here in Spain to see if there has been a violation because it's still not clear.

Thank you. That's actually perfect. One person can make a difference. It's not easy, but one person can make a difference. I mean, classes full of kids won't have to see those awful things at school. So thank you so much. And also thank you for, for giving those tips to others who've been motivated by your story. Great. Thank [00:22:30] you so much.

Thanks for the opportunity. It's a brilliant initiative. It's got to help a lot of people. And I thank you so much for your time and effort. contacting with all of us people, individuals around the world to publicize this issue because it's a huge issue and it's growing. It's, it, the concern is growing because our children are growing very quickly and their data is gradually being leaked into the ether and we would need to start taking control and being aware of [00:23:00] the potential risk.

So thank you for all your hard work. One person can make a difference, so it will definitely. Thank you. Thank you very much. We encourage all parents and loved ones to ensure that the digital footprints their children create at school are treated with the respect and care they deserve. If your school or area hasn't yet leaned heavily into technology at school, we hope that you These stories will help you ask the right questions when they [00:23:30] do.

If you have a story to share, would like more info on these issues, or would like to contribute in any way, please contact us. Together we can make a difference in safeguarding our children's digital futures. Digital Dominoes.