So many people who have dealt with narcissists carry a hidden wound.

Was it my fault?

Did I attract them or could I have done something differently?

In the spiritual space especially, we hear advice such as narcissism doesn't

really exist, it's just separation.

Or what inside you attracted them?

On the surface that might sound empowering, but in reality it

often creates deep victim shaming.

And here is the hard reality that few dare to say.

Narcissistic abuse is not just unconscious wounding.

It often is intentional, calculated, and deeply, deeply destructive.

We also need to dismantle another myth, the idea that narcissism is

created by childhood trauma alone.

That's why I knew I had to bring in Dr. Peter Salerno because he's bringing in

cutting edge insight, showing that there may actually be biological roots as well.

This radically changes how we understand narcissism and what it truly takes

to protect and free ourselves.

Dr. Peter Saleno has spent decades working at the intersection of trauma,

narcissistic abuse and recovery, helping countless people finally see

the truth of what they endured, and to find the strength to break free.

Listen all the way to the end because there is not just light

at the end of the tunnel there is your freedom, there is your power.

There is actually an incredibly powerful lesson that comes when we experience

these immensely painful dynamics that Dr. Peter Saleno shares at the very end.

Peter, I want to begin with something we see a lot in the spiritual space,

in the personal development community.

There are teachers or coaches or guides who say things such as

narcissism doesn't really exist, it's just another form of separation.

Or they ask what inside you attracted a narcissist.

What role did you play?

Putting responsibility onto the person who has been abused or who has been suffering

and struggling in a narcissistic dynamic.

On the surface that might seem empowering, but it so often

creates deep victim shaming.

What do you see as the, as the impact of this kind of advice?

That the impact of that kind of advice is actually extremely

harmful for a lot of people.

I think what it discounts is the reality that there can be an

intentionality to this form of abuse.

So in, in the form of exploitation, manipulation, it's not that people

are missing something in themselves that's, that's drawing this type of

energy into their life all the time.

What, what often happens is these types of individuals have a very

predatory nature, and they will just vet people, essentially, seek them

out to see if they can exploit them.

So it's not like you're asking for it or, or there's always something unresolved

in your history that you're missing.

It's that these people kind of go out and hunt for, uh, for prey,

essentially, emotional prey.

And so the research is clear on that.

I mean, a lot of people from the, you mentioned the

spiritual, uh, side of things.

I think a lot of people have this idea that nobody can make you feel anything.

Nobody can force you to do anything.

We live in a world that it's obvious that people coerce, people

pray, people, uh, intimidate.

And so that idea, I think it's a, it's a wonderful ideal.

And there, there's certainly room for it.

But, but I'm actually very interested in bridging the gap, uh, where we

can't just say all of you know, that that's the only way to look at things.

As far as your, your, your comment on narcissism doesn't exist.

Well, to me that's like saying shyness doesn't exist or

introversion doesn't exist.

We're talking about inherent traits that have existed in human

nature since the beginning of time.

And when those traits become excessive, that's when something like entitlement

or grandiosity become very dangerous.

So it's not this created construct to pathologize people.

It's a description that people have been using in every culture since

the beginning of time to explain to people who are grandiose, boastful,

arrogant, and don't feel like they have to be accountable for their actions.

You talked about that it always has to do with a wounded childhood.

There is some very specific trauma and that made them who they are.

You, you debate that.

You actually, you talk about that this isn't always the case and that, um, that

there is a deeper truth here, essentially.

Yeah, absolutely.

So when I was earning my master's and my, uh, doctorate in psychology,

that's actually what I was taught predominantly, that there's, when it

comes to personality, there's, if there's a personality disorder in adulthood,

that's, that's not a insult, that's just what we described, you know, these

disorders to be, that they originated from some sort of rupture in childhood.

There was a developmental period where there was this crucial need

for essentially nothing to go wrong.

And so if something went wrong during that time, let's say there was some neglect or

there was some invalidation or dismissal of emotion, then that sets the trajectory

for narcissism to develop later in life.

What we found though, is there are.

Plenty of individuals who have been neglected, dismissed,

emotionally, you know, abandoned and who don't develop narcissism.

So we had to go back to the drawing board and see is there anything else that may

be contributing to this development?

And what we've discovered is people who have these disorders, or even

these tendencies, they typically have to have, like, a biological

underpinning or a trait profile that is vulnerable to the development of this.

So it's not just what happens to them, it's how they perceive their experience

from their own biology, their own internal variation of development

that, that gives rise to this.

So it's not just biological and it's not just environmental.

But if you don't have the, the vulnerability or the susceptibility to it

from the beginning, you're not going to develop it no matter what happened to you.

And so that's really what I'm trying to do is just help people understand,

now that we can test these theories.

Oftentimes we test them and they, they don't come back, uh, valid.

And so now that we have more technologies, it's not that we want to throw out

all that other theoretical, uh, information that's been very valuable,

it's just we want to add to this, to the picture and complete the picture.

'Cause there are people who have very similar upbringings and one becomes

very narcissistic and abusive in adulthood and the other one becomes, it

remains very stable and, and agreeable and, uh, collaborative and kind.

So what's, what's the difference between those two?

A lot of people say, well, the difference is that it seems like they

had similar upbringings, but what really happened is, you know, there

was a certain type of parenting, that made this person a certain way.

There's a lot of research in, in twin and adoption studies and

things like that, that that disprove that theory that it's there.

There's more going on than just environmental influence.

And mighty also explain why, for instance, when someone has that

vulnerability, traumatic experiences could exacerbate, um, how it then

plays out later on in adult life?

But it would also explain why other people go through the most intense

and cruel form of neglect or even abuse and become highly compassionate

people, very kind, very generous people?

So I, it's, you are opening their Pandora box essentially, that's kind

of changing the understanding of that.

And because these ideas have been for so long around, it's

kind of, it takes a while for everyone to catch up in that sense.

Yeah, and in fact, you know, when we talk about psychological research or really

research in any, any field, there's such a thing as a confirmation bias.

And, and what that means is as soon as you believe something,

if it's a widespread belief, it's going, it's never gonna go away.

It's never gonna fade away.

So even if we have new research or new data that disproves something

or disconfirms something from the past, it's gonna be very unlikely

that people just accept it.

So we're gonna contend with, a lot of myth myths essentially in, in any field.

Other examples of this are things like autism, schizophrenia, um,

other conditions that historically were blamed on parenting alone.

And now that we've done more research and we've verified that there's other, you

know, genetic and biological components to those, uh, conditions as well, but it's

taken people a long time to accept that.

Narcissism is a curious thing because it originated in mythology and then it was

used as an example for philosophy, and then it started to move into psychology.

So just the, just the definition of it itself is controversial, 'cause

what does it actually refer to?

So sometimes I don't even know when people, when people argue with me

or push back, I don't even know if we're referring to the same thing.

We might be on, on completely different wavelengths as far

as what we're dis discussing.

So that's also important too, is to really define what we mean

when we say narcissism as well.

And on that, how would you define what it means in your own, in your own words?

From a clinical perspective, if we're dealing with a. a personality or a

character that is so disordered that it's, it's essentially causing harm

in the lives of other people, it's causing significant distress and

impairment in, in the individual, but also in their interpersonal life where

things are just not working right, it's causing a lot of chaos and, and

harm, we would describe that as someone who's narcissistic is invested in their

image, overly invested in their image at the expense of their, their self.

There's really no actual self, right?

And we see that in the myth of Narcissus.

We see him gazing into a pond, but the image on the pond is

just at the surface of the pond.

It's very thin.

So to pierce through that is pretty easy, which is why they get very enraged when

they're criticized or when there's any sort of feedback they don't agree with.

A lot of people have mistaken that for thin skin.

Like they're, they're so ashamed of themselves, they're so sensitive.

I actually see it more as it's just a very thin veil, there's

nothing underneath there.

But it's, it's not necessarily emptiness from shame.

It's emptiness.

'cause they haven't worked on a true self.

They've only worked on their image.

Circling back to when we talked about when, when you shared about that, it

doesn't always necessarily mean it comes from wounding in childhood or trauma, Um.

for the people on the, on the receiving end, for a person on the receiving

end, how does this impact them?

Because if a therapist, for instance tells them, oh, they are this way

because they've been wounded, could this not actually lead to further

end measurement with the narcissist?

Actually cause, cause a person to stay longer in the relationship?

That is exactly what happens.

Exactly what happens.

And what's interesting is there was a, a few years ago, probably over 10 years

ago now, there was something called the Finding, I, I think it's called the

Finding Competent Care Act, because so many people were going to therapist after

therapist and being told you, you need to help this person heal or you need to stay

into this relationship and work it out.

Or you need to understand that if there was infidelity or lying or

deceit, it was because the person was acting out, not acting up.

And so people were trying, sacrificing their lives to try

to make somebody feel better.

And, and the, the antidote that was being advised was give them more love,

more empathy, more understanding.

And we know that people who, who are exploitative, if they get empathy

and understanding, they just increase their exploitation, they don't learn

from their, their past behavior.

So it, it created a lot of harm.

But what was interesting is the pushback from the public resulted

in a lot of these reforms.

Like we, we need to start rein, you know, investigating how these,

how we understand these disorders.

So it actually ended up being a very wonderful thing where people started

speaking out and saying, I'm being invalidated in these therapeutic contexts.

I'm being told to take a more abuse because the more I take,

the more they'll somehow change.

So it's been pretty, it's devastated a lot of people.

And most of the people that consult with me today, that's the story they tell

me like, I've been to five different professionals, they've told me to stick it

out or work on my own patients or my own understanding, increase my own capacity.

And the other person will eventually change and it's

just, it hasn't been the case.

Talking about, for instance, couples in therapy where one person is a narcissist

or is very high up on that spectrum, if you would define it in that way.

Something that I've seen is, or I've heard of, is that people, as a way of hiding,

will label the other person a narcissist.

So the narcissist becomes a master of learning about narcissism without ever

looking inside and, and realizing, Hey, that might actually be me.

Then projecting that onto the other person, turning the crowd or even the,

the, the therapist against the other person in, in, in such a scenario that

is really taken to an extreme of course.

But using this example, what would you do in such a situation?

How would you spot the signs?

Is there, is there a way to see with clarity what is going on there?

that happens so often because the, the, the narcissist is a, is highly skilled

at pathologizing the innocent partner.

Then the therapist will align with the narcissist.

And, and I've, I've heard that story a lot of times too.

Another thing that happens is when you're in the presence of someone

who's really a malignant narcissist, and you, you described the spectrum,

and, and it is a, it does operate on a continuum of severity, sometimes

the therapist will become intimidated, uh, or feeling incompetent.

and want to impress the narcissist, that's a counter transference reaction.

So they will, they, they will ignore, dismiss the, the red flags or the, the

signs and, and start to align with them.

This is how even, this is even how cults are formed.

And then start to basically invalidate the, the innocent party.

So it happens from manipulation of the therapist as well.

And the reason why that's possible is 'cause most therapists, and it's not

really their fault, but most therapists, they get one personality theory

course in college, and then they never study personality psychology again.

And a lot of them are taught that psychopathology doesn't

exist, it's just a continuum of differences or misunderstandings.

So they don't look at people through the lens of disorder.

They look at it as everybody's just a bit bit different and we can find a way

to get everyone to get along somehow.

So training and education in, in psychopathology and understanding

intentional manipulation is s significantly, um, there's a deficit

there in training and so I think it's, it's pretty easy for a narcissist

to fool the average therapist.

Which is, which is, it's almost chilling a little bit, isn't it?

Or not?

A little bit.

It is chilling that, that, that, that a therapies can be fooled in

that way, and this dynamic, this toxic dynamic can even be created.

Which kind of leads into a topic or a question I wanted to ask you, which is it?

It has a darkness to it, but I think there is an important element of truth

here, which is, uh, it seems that it's very hard for people to accept the fact

that there are people out there who are deliberately exploiting, harming others.

It seems almost difficult for some people to accept that this is actually happening.

To accept that is almost to accept that perhaps there is evil, if

you wanna call it in this world.

Why do you believe that is so difficult for people to accept?

I think the most difficult reason is because if, if there is such a

thing as people who are intentionally harmful, it's hard for people to accept

that that means that as children, they are wired a bit differently.

And we, we see all children as innocent.

It's, it's hard for them to overlook.

It's like, well, someone can be made into a harmful person, but no one

can just exist as a harmful person without an environmental influence.

But sadly, you know, it depends on the audience and the,

and the, the, the context.

But, you know, it's something I've taken for granted because in my training

there's been a large body will say a large body of, of literature and research

that shows that people have manipulative tendencies and traits and even callous

unemotional traits where they lack empathy as early in, in life, in childhood.

And, and when people hear that, they think I'm saying children are

bad, and that's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is there are some children who are less agreeable, more

aggressive, uh, more impulsive, less willing to weigh out consequences

to the harm they inflict on others.

And so you see that early in life.

And if we would just accept that and intervene on it early, we

would prevent a lot of harm later.

But, but people just are, they don't want to touch it.

They, no.

All children are born as a blank slate.

They're all good.

And if they do anything wrong in their life, it's because their parents

mistreated them or there was a tragedy.

I think it's very unrealistic to to think that all people are born

exactly the same as a blank slate.

We all perceive, we perceive our environments differently.

We perceive adversity differently.

We perceive fairness and equality differently.

The sooner we get under that, the more preventative care we can have

for children who, you know, for no fault of their own just seem

to be a little bit more attracted to misbehaving and, and defiance.

And, um, we don't have to call them evil, but we, we have to admit, we

have to acknowledge that they have traits that are different than, than

the person who blends perfectly into society and follows all the rules.

People, that's just not true that everybody thinks that way.

I've heard you share something really, really important that I wanted to

bring into the conversation, and I'm using my own language here, correct

me if I'm wrong, but you mentioned that for narcissists, one of the

biggest fears is being caught.

It's not about feeling real remorse.

It's not about, oh, I'm feeling remorse about hurting the other person.

The challenging emotions they might experience are more about, oh, I got

caught hurting another person, which would go back to the, to the image.

Yeah, so they're over, they're overly invested in their image at the expense of

the true self we, we talked about earlier.

So they don't really have a self to monitor as far as a

conscience or remorse or guilt.

They don't, that they don't have a self that goes through that process

where a normal person weighs out the, the consequences of their actions and

if they hurt someone, they typically feel bad 'cause they have empathy.

They think, well, if someone did that to me, I wouldn't like that so I'm

gonna resist doing this to someone else.

They don't go through that, that, they skip that step.

So what they're interested in, they're not, they, it doesn't really

matter to them if they are bad, what matters to them is if they look bad.

They, they, they want other people to think that they're good,

but it doesn't actually bother them if they are in fact bad.

So, being a good person is not important, but being seen as a good person,

being seen as generous, that has all the relevance and importance to them.

Yeah.

It's the impression management.

If you, if I can appear good, that's enough for me, but I don't

necessarily have to act good.

Let, let's bring this into family systems for a moment.

Narcissistic family members often form alliances.

Some people ask if it's possible, specifically because it's family, and

because also other family members might be involved and it's the only way to

connect with others, is there possible to keep some kind of relationship with them?

Or if we really drop to the core, is it going to lead to a constant sense

of nervous system dysregulation, survival mode, and anxiety?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think certain people probably have more of a natural resilience to Interacting

with someone like this, I know like for example, some therapists don't have a

problem working with that population.

Others dread it and they don't want anything to do with it.

So I think even, even that speaks to people's different temperaments, right?

Different ways of, of, so I think depending on the family member and

depending on the context, I think some people can have superficial

relationships with these individuals, um, where it's not constantly putting

them on edge and dysregulating them.

I think people who are a little are more, um, not sensitive, but just

more in touch with their emotional intelligence would have a harder time.

Uh, related, relating, staying with someone in close proximity because,

'cause they're so self-serving, I mean, it's not even, again, we don't have to,

we don't have to qualify it as, as even good or bad or, or even moral or immoral.

It's just you have to expect they don't believe in equality and

they're gonna put themselves first.

And if you can accept that, you might be able to tolerate it.

But It's also just not a very fulfilling relationship with someone like that

'cause they just aren't interested in you or your feelings or anything.

They're just interested in how you can serve them.

Which leads into a topic I believe it's not talked about often.

It's kind of also this topic of, of resilience, right?

That one should be resilient enough to be able to tolerate such a, such

a relationship of such encounters at at least these ideas do exist.

And I think that what can happen here is that a person might really feel a

stronger pull to go no contact, for instance, or to limit contact to the

absolute bare minimum as superficial and indifferent as it can get.

And then there might be that kind of contrary voice inside them because

of teachings or ideas or myths they have heard that says, well

actually, that's me running away, that's me running away from them.

if somebody, if somebody is feeling, you know, dismissed or devalued

or, worthless in the context of a relationship 'cause it's not reciprocal.

It's not mutual.

and they want to go no contact, I think that's self-respect.

I don't think that's, that's not running away.

I mean, it's sort of like even if, if you were in a public place and

somebody was belligerent and assaulting you and you walk away from them,

it's not because you're being rude.

It's 'cause you're, you're protecting yourself.

They're not allowed to treat you that way.

And if they continue to treat you that way, you have the

right to excuse yourself.

And that's, I think that's even the same in the context of a family member who's

abusing you that way or taking advantage or, um, or a spouse or anybody, you

know, that you have the right to create distance if they're not going to treat

you the way you deserve to be treated.

And I think this right is so important, specifically when it comes

to families, family, you keep the harmony and all of that nonsense.

That, that people really feel that deep inside, I've got the right to

actually cut this person out of my life.

Not because I'm ruthless, but because I'm respecting myself

and I'm exercising this right.

Yeah, and I, I would even say in a way, you're respecting the other person too.

Because.

If you stay in that context, in that situation and take the abuse, um,

the quality of life for both people is not, is not really gonna be very,

I mean, the other person may be very parasitic and feel entitled to mistreat

you, but they're not gonna really be that happy either in that context.

So it's almost like a, that boundary is stopping the enabling and it's

actually mutually, Beneficial.

And teaching them perhaps the only lesson that is worth teaching, even

though they might never learn the lesson.

Correct.

Yeah,

And For a person who's listening to this right now and they feel, yeah, I feel

something is wrong in my relationship or family dynamic or intimate partner, but

I'm still not a hundred percent sure, they're still looking for certainty.

Maybe you have seen that a lot in your work.

When you work with people, they're looking for more, more certainty.

They're like, ah, yeah, this, and this happened.

This, this didn't seem right to me, but I need more certainty.

Can you share a little bit more about the, the, the sure fire signs that someone

might be dealing with a narcissist?

Yes.

And this is actually related to one of my books that I wrote

about cognitive dissonance.

'Cause what happens is people who aren't overtly manipulative or

abusive, when they're covertly, manipulative and deceitful, it's hard

to tell what's true and what's not.

And they also, they count on you not knowing because they're

intentionally trying to scramble your perception so you don't know is

this abuse or is this just normal?

They're nice sometimes and so maybe it's, this is just how relationships work.

So if, if they can keep you in that state of ambiguity where, like you

just said, I don't really know.

What's the sure sign?

I would say to look for, you wanna look, you, you don't even need to

necessarily figure out if they're narcissistic or, or anything like that.

What you wanna look for is across the context in history of the

relationship, how collaborative are they?

Do they have collaborative capacity?

Because collaboration requires people seeing you as an equal.

So do they collaborate?

Do they, um, self-correct?

Meaning if they make a mistake or they're wrong, do they admit it

and then they try to stop doing it?

Or does the problem keep happening?

Do they problem solve with you or do they escalate drama?

'Cause narcissists won't accept an opportunity to problem solve.

They just externalize blame, and then they create drama.

They escalate drama.

It's you, not me, end of story.

So I tell people, look for collaboration, problem solving, self-correction.

And do they, um, self-reflect?

You know, usually when, when someone cares about other people, they want to make

sure they're, they have strong character.

They ask themselves questions.

Did I handle that properly?

Narcissists don't do that.

So those are kind of the four indicators and if you can see that

pattern in your, in the history of your relationship, are they collaborative?

Do they problem solve?

Do they self, uh, correct and do they self-reflect?

If the answer's no on all those things, and it's not just once in

a while when they're stressed, it's most of the time, I'd say it's a clear

indicator of what you're dealing with.

And then the problem with that is then they need to go and figure out

how to do, learn to do those things.

You can't teach them those things.

Let's use an example, say a couple is in a social setting with other people, And

uh, one partner puts the other person down in front of others, not in an

extremely aggressive and overt way, but there is a subtle stab in that sense.

And, and it's a, there's a sting and the other person feels it.

If we would kind of out of context look at this and say, well, that's

a narcissist, that, that, that will be, that will be insufficient

the amount of evidence we have.

But if then behind the scenes, for instance, one partner would express

that really hurt, and the other partner would actually self-correct

and say, oh wow, I actually didn't realize this is how it came across.

How did you feel?

Oh my God, I'm really sorry, that's actually not what I meant.

And of course, words can be faked.

I mean, it's not, saying these words alone doesn't mean

someone is, is self-correcting.

But if a person would genuinely do that, I mean mistakes and

imperfections can happen.

I suppose the question is, what happens afterwards?

Is there repair or is there no repair?

Exactly the self-correction.

It's not in the words, it's in the process.

It's not in the con, it's not in the content, it's in the process.

So if that never happens again, or rarely happens again, then you have evidence

the person is actually, you know, self-reflecting and self-correcting.

But those kind of little jabs that you mentioned where maybe somebody

devalues somebody, oh, don't eat this because I don't want you to gain weight.

Oh, just kidding, and they do it publicly so people have a laugh, but the person

says, you, you know, you humiliated me.

Now I feel like I, I don't know what I'm allowed to eat or not eat.

I'm, I'm walking on eggshells around you.

If the person genuinely says, oh my goodness, I, I really didn't,

I really didn't expect that that was gonna be the response.

I'm terribly sorry.

I was wrong.

I, it won't happen again.

You know, you can forgive those things once in a while.

But if that's an enduring pattern and the person just makes

excuses, oh, you're too sensitive.

Oh, that's not my, that wasn't my intention, that's not what I

meant, you took it the wrong way.

Are you doing okay?

You seem like you're on edge.

All that, you know, gaslighting, if that's an enduring pattern of

behavior, that's a major red flag.

'Cause the person's not interested about, they're, they're less interested in the

fact that they really hurt you, they're more interested in, don't look at me

as I, as if I have a character flaw.

Just, you fix it on your end because the problem really is how you received it.

It's not what I said or did, and that's very narcissistic.

What role does the body play in recognizing narcissistic abuse?

Do you see that the body often registers the truth through anxiety, tension, or

even exhaustion, immense fatigue, long before the mind actually accepts or

comes to the realization something is terribly wrong in this relationship?

Yeah, I absolutely believe that actually.

And we have regions of our brain that, um, literally detect

errors and contradictions.

So we get signals when something just isn't right and we actually

tend to ruminate about it.

That's why I, I call this the lingering upset effect.

When someone's really intentionally lying or manipulating you, it's like

your body doesn't really let it go.

But if we assume everyone is genuinely, kind and we take people's, apologies at

face value and, um, we assume that they're collaborating, we'll ignore those gut

instincts and our minds, our thoughts will override and start to dismiss it.

But it collects over time underneath, which is what can result in like,

um, like a million paper cuts, right?

Or, uh, you know, that fatigue element you described, uh, can, can be gradual

over time, but it's, it's really that you got so many signals, but you're kind of

forced to ignore them either 'cause you want the relationship to work or you don't

think anyone would actually be doing that intentionally, or the person is convincing

you that they, they're not doing it intentionally while they're doing it.

But yes, there are physical physiological cues that, uh, I would absolutely suggest

people pay very close attention to.

People make you feel things.

One of, one of the expressions I heard in one in my training is narcissists are.

Experts at stealing your self-esteem.

So if you're in close proximity to someone who's not narcissistic for long

periods of time, you're gonna start feeling really terrible about yourself.

And it's like they're extracting the good feelings from you.

So it's not this idea that you're just reacting to them in a certain

way and you need to correct that, it's that you're receiving information

that they are pulling, you know, your self-esteem away from you.

And talking about these cues, I think there's a really

important nuance here as well.

Say someone who has gone for narcissistic abuse, maybe in their childhood with their

motto or father, and or in a relationship, in an intimate relationship, and then they

enter a relationship that is quote unquote safe, or there is a healthy attachment.

Could these cues also misfire then after narcissistic abuse?

Meaning that when the other person is angry or when the other person

expresses something, they might, oh, they gaslighting me, they're

manipulating me, here it is again?

I'm just thinking about the person here.

And there will be many people who struggle with what cue is really

coming from my kind of gut instinct or is coming from a pa past trauma

or past, past painful experience.

That's a great point.

But there's actually a pretty simple solution to that.

If there is historical trauma that could be very similar to the dynamic in the

present, or you're mistakenly projecting or transferring that past trauma onto the

current situation, if you go and resolve your trauma and you're still having those,

you're no longer hypervigilant, you're no longer feeling the chronic stress in

your nervous system, but you're still feeling that, that ick or that bad vibe,

then you know that it, it was both.

But if it, if it, if, if it goes away, then you can say, yeah, I was, I was

certainly possibly transferring, you know, displacing that past experience

on this present, and there really wasn't much harm in the present.

But there are trauma interventions now that that can really take away that.

That chronic stress in the nervous system from childhood adversity.

So if you clear that out of your system and you're still having these,

these threat detectors are firing off, then you know that it was an

authentic, accurate perception.

I would encourage people who have any sort of past trauma or adversity to

take care of that, no matter what their current situation is, because one, it

just, it liberates you, but it also can prevent those misfires as you said.

A lot of people say, I wish I had seen it sooner.

Is there a way to spot this in advance?

I don't think this will be a satisfying answer, but I think I, I, because

experts in this field who've studied these personalities for four decades

plus and work with them, they even say, no one's actually ever completely

immune to deception or manipulation.

They, they, they can, they can get duped once in a while

too, if they're not careful.

But I think that there are strategies you can use when you're.

Inviting new people into your life in a more assessing manner

than you would have in the past.

So I, there's even, I think that there's a, there should be a call for sort

of preventative care in the sense of education and even education systems.

You know, not everybody's got good intentions, so here's what you could

look for so you don't get duped and then stuck in, in a dynamic.

I know that there's certain colleges now that are actually trying to offer this

sort of education for college students on campus, so that they are more, not

skeptical of everyone, but just a little bit more clear that not everyone's going

to approach you with good intentions and here are some things to look for.

So I think that you can educate yourself enough that maybe if you've

experienced this in the past, you could prevent it more in the future.

I think that relationships though, unfortunately, the only way to

figure out if somebody's sincere or authentic is to spend time with them.

And so it's not gonna, it's gonna reveal itself over time.

I, and I would again say it's almost like, like a job interview,

like, who is this person good, a good candidate for this position?

And you have to ask questions that are almost suspicious questions

like, like what's your background?

Like, what's your history?

What's your character, like, to see if they're a good fit.

And I think people should be doing that same thing, um, not in an insulting

or judgmental way, but in a curious way, inquisitive way with people

they, they date and even friends.

because eventually, contradictions and inconsistencies will reveal themselves.

And then you, you can kind of see maybe this person isn't as trustworthy,

worthy as I originally thought.

So, um, it's not about being bitter and cynical, it's just about, you

know, realizing there's people out there that will manipulate you if

you don't, if you don't look for it.

Over overt covert and then many other labels, communal,

narcissist, spiritual narcissist.

Vulnerable narcissist.

I've heard you share that just labeling someone as this is an overt

narcissist, this is a covert narcissist, and they will always be that way.

And, and you mentioned that a person using my own words, correct me if

I'm wrong, but you mentioned that a narcissist is both covert and overt.

Can we actually label people this way or is it all depending

on environment, circumstances?

Because I, let's use an example.

Say there is a person who is always playing the victim, always.

It's a very kind of vulnerable, covert attitude.

But then they gain power, power, even politically.

Power, um, in a business, power in an organization.

And in that moment there, all their cover traits suddenly become overt.

They start to dominate everyone.

They're outright aggressive.

Yeah.

Researchers don't really refer to narcissism in any exclusive

way where there's like an exclusive fixed, uh, subtype.

So I lean more towards the reality of what you just said, different

environments people are going to, they're gonna continue cultivating

their narcissism in every environment, but the way it's expressed could

vary depending on the context.

So somebody who seems like they're very introverted and subdued and,

um, this kind of false humility in the right context, if they get

celebrated or elevated, they might become very overt in their grandiosity.

I don't think that they, that they are limited to one subtype.

I think that they're sort of like, they have this chameleon factor where they can

adapt, but what we want to, we want to make certain of is the trait that fuels

the engine of narcissism, regardless of the expression, is the grandiosity.

That is the, and grandiosity is the sincere belief that they are superior

than others, that they hold more value, inherent value just simply for existing.

They don't have to prove it, you're just expected to know that about them.

That's the problem with narcissists.

It's even when they're not good at something, they think they're wonderful.

And they, but, but it's a sincere belief.

It's not, they're not making it up or compensating.

A lot of people have this idea their grandiosity is a front, it's

a facade for their insecurity.

That's not how grandiosity is defined in, in clinical literature research.

It's defined as the sincere belief that they are superior

than others and therefore are entitled to mistreat other people.

'Cause if you're the king, everyone else is your subordinate and your servant.

And talking about grandiosity, how do we distinguish between a person who is

perhaps ambitious, has a strong sense of self-belief in, in, in themselves?

There must be a clear distinction between the two.

Uh, well again, ambition, uh, is admirable, but people who are ambitious

and aren't grandiose believe in equality.

So they don't want you to be any less ambitious because they're not threatened

by you passing them up, they, they would celebrate that about you and admire that.

A narcissist would envy that.

So there's no equality in a narcissist.

So if someone's extremely ambitious and conscientious in, in like,

let's say the business world or the political world, that's fine.

If they need everyone else to be beneath them, that's where you

would see the grandiosity coming in.

I also like what you said about the, the, the chameleon, that it

can really like, almost like, almost like seeing what works, right?

Where can I gain the most power?

Where can I exploit the most?

One day it's a business, it's in business.

The other day it might be in a spiritual community.

It's almost like how can I exploit any system that presents itself to me?

Where, where people are vulnerable essentially.

That's absolutely right.

They actually, you know, the research shows that they, they seek out

environments where they can win favor.

So that's another reason why I'm not very in interested in subscribing to this idea

that the environment creates you, people create their environments, even children.

Children choose who they want to hang out with.

They choose what kind of activities they want to engage in.

Even if your parents try to force you to be good at something or like something,

you might still, you know, resist it.

'cause it's not inherently something you're interested in.

You can't really shape somebody 100% environmentally the

way people want to believe.

Um, it doesn't mean that your, your biology is your destiny,

but it does determine your perception in a lot of ways.

And so it's a combination, you know, but narcissists intentionally

seek out environments where they can be exploitative.

I mean, we cannot compare damage in that way.

If a narcissist is abusing an intimate partner, that is incredibly damaging.

But when narcissists gain power, would you say that then essentially the damage

they cause becomes infinite, not infinite, but becomes tenfold amplified ultimately?

Well, the way I see it is if somebody doesn't believe in equality, and

they can't collaborate, then any power they gain in any system, any

hierarchy where they're, it requires, you know, moving parts and different,

different levels of, of participation and cooperation, they're going to

ruin any organization or institution because they don't believe anything

good can come from outside of them.

So if somebody, if somebody in a cooperative system has an idea or

gives them feedback, if they're in a position of power, they're

gonna dismiss that outright.

And basically it becomes, um, tyranny.

So, yeah, and like the more they, the more they, you know, climb the

ladder of authority or power, the worse it gets for everyone and the

more destructive everything gets.

And ultimately it could take a very, very long time, but they end

up self-destructing because they just can't, they can't maintain.

Um, I mean, constantly what happens is people get fired or they get

harassed, or they get intimidated to the point where the whole

system, you know, fault crumbles.

And that's because of their inability to collaborate and cooperate.

In the breaking free process, do people usually have to experience a lot of

pain until they say, enough is enough?

Is it a choice?

Is it a moment inside themselves where they decide, I've had enough

of this, and then things change?

And if that's the case, how does it lead to that moment?

Or how can you, how can you help someone get to this moment faster?

I wish I knew the answer to that last one.

How do you, how do you get it to them faster?

I would say, I don't think most people actually reach a breaking point.

I've, the people that I've, counseled about this, I tell them usually from

the moment that you make the decision to leave, you're still completely

unsure if it's the right decision.

So I tell people it doesn't require confidence or bravery or, uh, certainty.

It requires courage.

You, you usually have to start making the decision while you're terrified

that you don't even know if it's the right decision, but there's enough

data, if you will, from the history that things aren't gonna change.

But even when people come to that conclusion, like, okay, you have clearly

identified that for the last 20 years I've been manipulated, dismissed,

demeaned, abused, and it's all been covered up and no one believes me 'cause

'cause they're wonderful in public with everyone else, they still go, I don't,

don't know that I can leave though.

I mean, we have a house, commingled business, children, finances.

I can't just leave.

If I leave, they're also gonna get really mad.

What I don't, I, I'm afraid of that response.

So it's, it's, I don't think it's ever just a black and white i'm fed up.

it's very complex and I think a lot of people would have to spend, A, a

great deal of time developing the, the capacity to make that decision,

while still feeling very un unsure and confused and, and even guilty.

A lot of people feel guilty, like they're abandoning the person or betraying

them or breaking their commitment.

So there's a lot of psychological components that come into play here.

And it's, it's really, um, it's just really tragic in my opinion.

It's very sad that people have to even come to that, to that point where they

have to make a decision like that.

And the guilt you just mentioned, would you say that the guilt is

around confusing enmeshment with love?

Yes, absolutely.

And I, I, I also think it's false guilt because it's, um, it's, it's

projected onto you from the, the.

Per the perpetrator or the predator or the, the abuser they want.

If, if you can feel like you're doing something harmful to them,

uh, you, you'll, you'll be more willing to stay and take the beating

longer, the emotional beating.

'Cause guilt is a very powerful motivator, you know?

The definition of guilt is the intention to wrong somebody.

Consciously, it's the conscious intention to wrong somebody.

So if you're feeling guilty and you haven't wronged somebody and you didn't

intend to, that's, that's false guilt.

That's either something your mind created or it's something someone

really benefits from you thinking.

So even just defining it as clear as possible kind of helps people

understand and gives them clarity.

Like, no, I never really want to hurt this person, but somehow I'm convinced

myself that I will if I, if I protect myself, if I, if I disentangle this

enmeshment, I'm somehow harming them.

I mean, that's very hard thing to dismantle, but, but

that's very manipulative.

Um, and someone who would want you to remain enmeshed and fused

like that without your own agency or I, you know, identity is not

someone who really cares about you.

When a person has broken free and they're going through the false guilt as you

describe the, the smear campaign, and, but let's say they go further and they,

they kind of overcome the smear campaign.

They become, as you put it, a as you mentioned, I believe,

in your work, indifferent, they've become more indifferent.

They're no longer highly charged or activated.

They, they, they feel more free from that person, they've broken

truly free from the dynamic.

But now they're questioning themselves, how could this have happened?

How can I trust myself again?

That, that breaking of trust in oneself.

And uh, and also that inner torment of can I ever open my heart again?

Is, is it going to be safe?

What if the same thing happens again?

So for someone in that stage, what would you say to them?

I would say that there are strategies that have proven to be effective where

you, you rebuild your core belief system because in these relationships, you,

you start, there's so much doubt and you start questioning your reality,

your, your core beliefs, who you are as a person, these people benefit

from you thinking you're a horrible person or you're just as bad as them,

or you contributed to the, the chaos.

And so when you start to reestablish your core beliefs of who you are, I, you know,

I'm a good person, i'm generous, I'm I'm worthy, I don't intentionally harm people,

um, if I accidentally do, I apologize.

When you start to get that back online, so to speak, it's buried underneath

all of the threat and the fear you start to get more confident in who

you are, and that's very healing.

People don't necessarily want to go through what they've gone through ever

again, but there's some, there's a period of time that there place where if you're

separated enough from it that you actually start to experience a lot of gratitude

for the experience and appreciation for the, the lessons you learned, and that

strengthens you to actually trust yourself and, um, you'll honor yourself enough to,

to, to feel like you're, you're willing to give other people a, a, a chance,

but they have to earn the benefit of the doubt, and they have to earn your trust.

It's just not something you're gonna freely give away the next time.

So, and I don't really think there's a timeline for that, or I can say it takes

this amount of time, but I've, I've seen people come out the other side and say, I

would never want to go through that again.

I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I'm glad it happened.

It taught me this about myself, and now I, I feel confident moving forward that

I can trust and, and love again and it's not like they're jaded or bitter

about life or, or relationships after.

And so people can reach that.

And could we perhaps then say that a person who truly heals from narcissistic

abuse actually builds true self-worth and, and strengthens a true sense

of self meaning, like you said, they wouldn't wish that on anyone, they would

never want to go for that experience again, but at the same time, they are

grateful for it because it confronted them with something that they had

to learn in a way in order to heal?

I think that these experiences in a very strange way, well, they build

character that was already strong.

They strengthen it and, and yes, they, they, they teach you a lot about

yourself in a, in a very profound way.

You know, I mean, we've heard this since the beginning of time,

there's always these stories of the order and the organization

that comes after chaos, right?

And so It's like a teaching that you wouldn't have otherwise.

And I do believe people, they recover and then they, know themselves in a way

that they wouldn't have known otherwise.

One last question I wanna ask you here, Pete, is where can people connect

with and find your powerful work?

Sure.

Thank you.

I, I have a website, dr peter salerno.com, and I've written a

couple of books that are on Amazon.

There's links on my website to those books.

I, my Instagram is Dr. Peter Salerno.

I have a YouTube channel as well.

Thank you, Peter.

It was an honor.

It was an honor for me as well.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for listening to this episode.

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