00:00:09 Nazish: Welcome to inner peace. Better health, a space where we connect the mind and the body gently and honestly without judgment. I am your host and today I am joined by Anna Donaghy, a certified alcohol mindset coach, life coach, and the host of the Big Drink Rethink. Our topic today is true nourishment versus false substitutes like alcohol and what we are really thirsty for underneath the habit. If you have wondered, is this helping me or just delayed what I need? This conversation will give you a language, clarity, and a softer way to look at the change. Welcome to the show, Anna.

00:00:54 Anna Donaghey: Hello. Thank you very much indeed for having me.

00:00:57 Nazish: Wonderful. So, Anna, before we get into alcohol, specifically when you hear the phrase, what are you thirsty for? What does it open in you? Like what do you notice in you notice? It opens up in people.

00:01:16 Anna Donaghey: Uh, very good question. So, um, for me, when I ask the question, what are you thirsty for? Or when I'm asked the question, what are you thirsty for? What it really relates to, what it really means to me is it goes to this place of human longing. You know, we all have needs, and often they're not met in our lives. Sometimes we don't even know what they are. So we're not designing lives around fulfilling them. Sometimes we have deeper seated longings, ambitions, aspirations, thoughts that, you know, when we were younger, maybe we thought we would be at a different place in our lives, doing a different thing, executing a different job. Unmet longings, things that we still hanker for. And when we feel adrift from those things, we often look to the likes of alcohol, the likes of drugs. My story is one of alcohol. But, you know, for some people it's food. For some people, it's social media. But we we look for quick fixes. We fill those gaps with what I would call. As you said in your introduction, the sort of the fake, the fake substitute as opposed to doing the deeper work which which is designed to help you identify what it is you are truly thirsty for.

00:02:47 Nazish: That really? That sounds really comforting. And that really sets the tone for this conversation. You know, I love that because it immediately moves us from what's wrong with me to what's true for me. And that feels like a very different doorway today.

00:03:04 Anna Donaghey: It's a it's a huge shift. You're absolutely right. And it takes it takes us away from this place of shame. You know something's wrong with me. Why can't I stop drinking? Or why do I eat more than I intended to? Or why do I reach for something outside of myself? I must be broken. You know I need fixing and it. And it takes a story away from there their completely, because humans having longing is the most natural thing in the world. You know, we're strivers. We're here to create better lives for ourselves and for our children and and the people who come next. So it is absolutely human to have a, you know, to have longings. And it's unfortunately very, very, very common to not have identified them. And then sometimes just to feel I use the term adrift, but it could also just be empty. It could be meaningless or aimless. Something's missing. What's missing? I need to fill it. You know, we have to crack on. We haven't got time to ask these questions. Let's fill it with a quick fix. Um, and also, when we have these unmet needs and we have these longings, it can feel deeply uncomfortable. We can feel unfulfilled and unsatisfied, which can make us feel ungrateful and lacking in shameful again. So, you know, in efforts not to feel these things and feel these negative emotions again, we can reach for a glass of wine, a, you know, our form of substitute, whatever that might be. But it's it's wonderful when you can shift that story away from, you know, what's wrong with me? To what haven't I discovered about myself that I need to bring into my life next? So, you know what? Am I still on this planet, on this journey to, you know, to fulfill? And that's a very, very different question.

00:05:16 Nazish: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you. You know, one misconception I hear a lot is alcohol is only off switch. Like, you know, people say that and I'm curious, what do you think people are actually trying to switch off from when alcohol becomes the default.

00:05:36 Anna Donaghey: Well, um, many things, many things I, I, I think once you scratch below the surface of alcohol use particularly sort of heavy, frequent routine use of something like alcohol. Um, what we're really reaching for when we're looking to have a drink is the feeling that we think the drink is going to give us. So we are. We are craving not the glass of liquid, but the feeling that we think the drink will give us. And that could be feelings of connection. It can be feelings of relief. It can be feelings of relaxation. It can be feelings of confidence. It can be a validation that you matter at the end of a busy day when you've been giving a piece of yourself to everybody. For people who are high functioning and, you know, possibly very senior, it can be a moment when you can just stop performing and, you know, switch off from this performative side. Uh, maybe you've been at work all day doing a job that you don't actually feel aligned to. So it's a moment again when you reach for a drink just to relax away from the person who you think you need to have been all day for a multitude of different reasons. We, you know, some people drink for connection. Some people drink to feel less lonely. Um, more, you know, less anxious, less overwhelmed. Much of it is or could be reduced down to saying, I want to switch off, but you're, you know, we can be very specific about what it is you're trying to switch off from or what you're trying to switch on. I'm trying to switch off boredom or switch on a feeling of companionship. Um, switch off loneliness and switch on a feeling of belonging. Switch off overwhelm and bring on a feeling of relaxation. You know, it's. We drink it to to help us feel differently. Um. And sometimes. Sometimes we do just drink to switch off. We. We drink to numb and just to kind of go shut up world. Um, you know, shut up head. There's too much going on and I can't take it anymore. But ultimately, it is worth picking that apart and looking specifically at the jobs that we give. We give alcohol or or other coping mechanisms in a more kind of, um, forensic way.

00:08:22 Nazish: And that just clears so many things for us. And when someone believes there is only one way I can relax, what tends to happen in body and mind over time, especially in sleep, anxiety and that sense of emotional steadiness.

00:08:41 Anna Donaghey: Well, you know, ultimately if that higher, if that higher feeling that we're looking to to reach is one of relaxation and calm, and we think that we have found the answer, then we call off the search. You know, it's it's it's why we can become so hooked onto these coping mechanisms. I personally started drinking when I was about fifteen years of age. It was just rebellion. It was experimentation. But I liked the way it made me feel. It made me feel more socially confident. So as I say, you know, call off the search. Why? Why would I go out at that point and and invest my time and energy in becoming more socially confident. When I had discovered this thing that could make me feel like that ten minutes after I drank it, the same, you know, the same for relaxation. If we feel that we have found the thing that helps us reach that state, we call off the search and we don't look beyond that solution, which is relatively cheap and very available. We don't look to the other tools that we could potentially put into our toolbox and, you know, use more nourishingly in life. So, you know, we're we as naturally, you know, as human beings, we tend to be energy preservers, which can make us lazy if we feel we find the answer. Many of us don't look further, and that in itself is what happens. So if we feel that we have found the thing that helps calm our minds and give us a good night's sleep, we don't look, we don't look any further, and we don't actually check back in at some point in time and say, is this really serving me? Or is it actually having negative side effects now? Is it maybe it's doing that job for me, but it's creating problems in my life elsewhere. Um, we don't we don't tend to scrutinize it like that. We just thank you very much. I found that move on.

00:10:51 Nazish: Absolutely. So it's not just drinking. It is relationship we are building with that relief. And if relief is outsourced, we slowly lose trust in our own ability to come back to ourselves.

00:11:08 Anna Donaghey: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've, um, I've recently published a book called What Are You Thirsty For? And it says Rethinking alcohol and the life that You want. But since I've published it, I've had so many people contact me and say, for me, it's eating, or for me it's binge watching television or it's cocaine or or whatever it might be. Um, it is outsourcing in whatever form it is outsourcing our emotional regulation. Because all of those things I spoke about a moment ago boredom, anxiety, um, overwhelm, loneliness, their emotional states. And we're basically using whatever coping mechanism we reach for to manage our emotional state, to change our emotional state. We we think if we have enough of it, it is going to take away some of the negative feelings, negative emotions, and put us into a more positive emotional place. So we are very, very clearly outsourcing our emotions. And the book in a very gentle, very gentle and very non-judgmental way says, just identify, just identify the jobs you might be giving alcohol or other things, because once you know very clearly what it is, there is a there is a host of different solutions out there reconnecting to ourselves, sitting there and thinking, what do I really need right now? Interrupting the habit loop with a different solution and tuning in and saying, what am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? And what else might actually be a better way of responding? Um, you know, I've been working with a lady recently who's chronically lonely. And obviously, whenever she feels that loneliness and despair, she is drinking in order to mitigate those feelings. Of course, that's not going to take her out of loneliness. I isolates her even more. And obviously, we could all sit there from the outside and think of a million things that she could do to put herself out there and to meet more people. But she's not going to do it when she's at home drinking. So these things don't serve us, but they stop us looking for the things that will. And, you know, modern life has many vices, but it also offers up so many opportunities as well to, you know, tap into different practices, different rituals, borrow things from different religions, different cultures, try things, experiment with things, play around with things and see if they give you the feeling that you need. All of which often, you know, amount to nourishing yourself in better, better ways.

00:14:24 Nazish: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more with you. You know, you have spent twenty five years in advertising, uncovering unspoken desires that drive behavior when it comes to drinking. What are some of the unspoken desires underneath it? Like belonging, ease, confidence. Numbness. Celebration? What is it?

00:14:46 Anna Donaghey: Yeah, well, all of those, you know, I worked in advertising, as you say, twenty five years. I helped brands, including advertising brands market their products, and they do so by creating stories. We we buy stories. We love stories. And in the stories that we we buy around alcohol. um, we see, you know, stories or messages that this brand is going to be, you know, more aspirational, you know, drink this and you will belong, um, you know, your social life will explode into greatness. Um, you know, you're going to feel more socially confident. You're going to come across as sophisticated, you're going to be any number of things. And what advertisers do very, very cleverly. And this isn't just on alcohol, it's on any brand, is they, they, they sort of plug into your higher emotional requirement. So if it's, if you're, you know, if you're advertising an expensive sports car, they are tapping into your desire to look successful, to look adventurous, to look exciting. So the same goes for alcohol. Um. to belong, to be part of the group, to be socially acceptable, which makes us feel safe rather than, you know, sitting on the margins as a non-drinker to feel expressive, to feel creative, to feel, uh, interesting, to feel fun. I mean, it's all there in Maslow's hierarchy. Actually, in terms of our human needs, alcohol will pitch itself at every single one of them all the way through from, you know, basic, fundamental tribal safety all the way through up to, you know, the self-actualization. Alcohol has I've seen advertising pitch itself at every single fundamental need, you know, alignment and association with fulfilling those needs. Um, but it's all story. It's all Fiction. Um, it's all advertising bluff. But we, you know, in Western society at least, obviously, I'm very I'm very aware of the fact that it differs across the world. But in Western society, where alcohol is very centric and central to our culture, it is generally considered to be the answer to most needs. Most moments, everything from commiseration through to celebration. Um, every life stage. So yeah, pretty much every story.

00:17:43 Nazish: this distinction is so powerful. The the desire is valid. The strategy might just be outdated. And that's compassionate and that compassionate reframe because it reduces shame and increases choice.

00:17:59 Anna Donaghey: Mhm. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think. I think that the shame, the shame aspect around things like alcohol is huge. It's it's what it's what kept me stuck in drinking loops for a long, long, long, long time. I felt because I had become very, very dependent on alcohol. I was addicted to alcohol and I. I felt incredibly ashamed. I felt very, very weak. I couldn't understand why, you know, I couldn't control it. I was successful, I was senior, I had, on the face of it, so many things going for me. But this one thing I simply couldn't master and it broke me. It made me feel incredibly weak. And over a long period of time, it really ate away at my sense of self and my sense of self-respect and worth. And you just become more and more ashamed of what you're letting it do And how you seem, apparently, you know, weak in the face of it. But when you can, when you can look at it and say, but all these things are presented to us very permissively by society as the answer to our needs. So it's not our fault if we fall foul of them. It's our responsibility to do something about it. But it's not necessarily our fault. And actually, once the conversation can shift away from what the hell are you doing? And why are you being like this? And you know what the hell's wrong with you into what's going on? What are you longing for and what jobs are you giving it to do? You've just got the wrong tool. Then suddenly and by the way, it's the nation's favourite coping mechanism. So it's not just you. We're all, you know, in households up and down the country. We're all locked in this moment of shame, thinking it's just us. Um, once you realize the universal truths, then, oh, the feeling of shame that lifts is incredible. The feeling of shame that lifts is incredible. And you, you can you can start saying, okay, I'm. You know, I'm not locked in a world of overindulgence and, you know, selfish behavior. I'm actually just locked into undernourishment. And I need to find ways of nourishing myself, working out what it is that's going to help me close this gap, you know, of longing or whatever it might be. That's a very, very different. It gives you agency. That's what it gives you. It takes you completely out of shame and says, right, you know, identify what it is you're longings are and start designing a life. You know, the environmental factors, the job, the relationships, all sorts of aspects of life that start to feed you because it's unbelievable how quickly something like alcohol loses its grip when you are inside a life you don't want to escape from. You know, if you're coming home every day feeling nourished, then you miraculously don't want to check out at six o'clock every evening with a bottle of wine. So it's amazing how alcohol loses its grip when you start living a more nourished, core nourished life.

00:21:36 Nazish: You know, it is so true the way you are putting it. It is absolutely something that so many people are going to relate. So many of my listeners are going to relate. So one thing for my listeners who feel stuck and maybe a little ashamed, what would you know? So what would you want them to remember tonight? Especially if alcohol has been their way of coping for a long time?

00:22:02 Anna Donaghey: Well, I would want them to to really take heed and hope from this thought that this isn't because they're broken or weak. Um, you know, I've, I've never spoken to anyone who struggles with alcohol out of sort of a lack of self discipline or willpower. It's because the environmental factors, you know, elements of their life just aren't nourishing them. So it's about being able to say that you do have agency with this. You can identify the jobs that you're giving it to do, and you can start looking for better tools. So that in itself is a very positive and hopeful message. But I think more broadly, what I would say is there will be millions of people, You know, across the world who drink their life isn't in chaos and their life isn't in crisis necessarily, but it just doesn't feel great. And the big, big message I wish I could put out to everybody is you don't have to wait until your life is in crisis in order to look at your consumption of things like alcohol or drugs and those kind of things, because I think we ask the wrong question. I think we wait there and say, you know, is my drinking bad enough that I now need to do something about it? And where I stand is, you know, I want to ask the question back and say, well, is your life good enough? Is your life good enough? Because if it isn't, then just gently and without blame and judgment, just question whether something like alcohol is holding you back. You believe it's giving you something. You believe is nourishing you, but it's keeping what you're really thirsty for just out of reach. And you know, I do genuinely think that there are millions of I mean, I know that there are millions of lives that can be improved if we ask those honest, radical questions, you know, is my life good enough? And what do I have to do to make it better? To create the circumstances in which there is no role for alcohol, drugs, etc.?

00:24:23 Nazish: Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And I'm pretty sure a lot of my listeners are going to take it home with them. You know, one thing that I am taking away from this conversation is that if alcohol has been your shortest, your shortest shortcut to relief, the deeper work isn't punishment. It's learning what you are truly thirsty for and giving it to yourself in a way that actually lasts.

00:24:49 Anna Donaghey: I couldn't agree more. And that is wonderful because suddenly you you stop facing what looks like, as you say, hard work, and you start looking at what is effectively life enhancing work. Because you know, to know what truly motivates us, drives us. And, you know, to know that we know the ingredients for a fantastic life. The things that we're hankering for is so exciting to know that we have that, to have that insight, personal insight is it's what it's what personal growth is all about. Um, and it brings that peace. It brings that peace and that calm as well, because suddenly you go, yes, I know what I need. I know what I need, and I know where to go and get it. And that's I mean, that's an amazing moment.

00:25:37 Nazish: couldn't agree more with you. So, Anna, where can our listeners find you and your work if they want to explore this gently without pressure.

00:25:47 Anna Donaghey: Well, everything that I do is on my website, which is called so it's w-w-w-what the big rethink. Um, and my podcast is called The Big Rethink, and my book is called What Are You Thirsty For? Um, but all, all of the details of all of that are on the big drink. Rethink. Com.

00:26:09 Nazish: Thank you so much, Anna. I will make sure to include all these details into the show notes, so that a lot of people can reach out to you. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode and bringing such calm and clarity to this show.

00:26:25 Anna Donaghey: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.

00:26:27 Nazish: And dear listeners, if this episode brought something up for you as well, take a breath and give yourself credit for listening with honesty. Curiosity is not small. It is the beginning of change. And maybe tonight, instead of asking should I or shouldn't I? Or you should try asking what do I need right now? And how can I meet it with care? This is inner peace, better health I am. Take care of your mind. Take care of your body and we will meet again soon.