1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,601 Rachel: Is there anyone living rent-free in your head right now? 2 00:00:03,201 --> 00:00:07,731 Have you been holding onto a grudge or found yourself not wanting to let somebody off the hook? 3 00:00:08,241 --> 00:00:12,621 Maybe at one point or another, you've thought about forgiveness, but it doesn't come that easily. 4 00:00:12,979 --> 00:00:14,269 This week, I'm speaking with Dr. 5 00:00:14,269 --> 00:00:17,359 Steve Smith, a GP who specializes in addiction recovery. 6 00:00:17,629 --> 00:00:18,739 He's worked with lots of people. 7 00:00:18,739 --> 00:00:25,011 Who've experienced trauma, and he's joining me to talk about forgiveness, What forgiveness is and what it is not. 8 00:00:25,461 --> 00:00:33,087 As we discussed forgiveness is not simply about letting somebody off the hook, but about letting them off your hook, not for that benefit, but for your own. 9 00:00:33,187 --> 00:00:35,227 And it can be transformational when you do. 10 00:00:35,580 --> 00:00:38,580 This episode covers some serious and sometimes dark topics. 11 00:00:38,610 --> 00:00:45,720 But if you want to know how to begin to deal with past traumas, or even move through a difficult situation you're experiencing right now. 12 00:00:46,110 --> 00:00:48,120 I highly recommend this conversation. 13 00:00:50,419 --> 00:00:59,925 If you're in a high stress, high stakes, still blank medicine, and you're feeling stressed or overwhelmed, burning out or getting out are not your only options. 14 00:01:00,155 --> 00:01:00,605 I'm Dr. 15 00:01:00,605 --> 00:01:04,085 Rachel Morris, and welcome to You Are Not a Frog 16 00:01:07,017 --> 00:01:07,347 Steve: Hello. 17 00:01:07,377 --> 00:01:08,757 I am Steve Smith. 18 00:01:08,787 --> 00:01:12,927 I am a GP specialist in substance misuse. 19 00:01:12,927 --> 00:01:14,817 I qualified over 40 years ago. 20 00:01:15,137 --> 00:01:21,037 I'm now living in Lancashire, in the northwest of England, uh, where I work in a drug clinic in, in Blackpool. 21 00:01:21,174 --> 00:01:28,324 And I've had a very varied career, worked overseas and worked in general practice, done a bit of ophthalmology. 22 00:01:28,644 --> 00:01:30,714 Rachel: Wonderful to have you on the podcast today, Steve. 23 00:01:30,744 --> 00:01:46,904 Uh, you originally contacted me because through your work with, with addiction, you've come across some really interesting sort of principles and things that you feel would make a huge difference, not just to people with addictions, but actually to all of us. 24 00:01:46,904 --> 00:01:55,224 And having chatted to you about it, I'm absolutely fascinated in, in, in your thoughts and your experiences, which is why I asked you to come on the podcast. 25 00:01:55,504 --> 00:02:03,354 Can you tell me a little bit about your own medical journey and how you came to sort of be working in in addiction therapy? 26 00:02:03,674 --> 00:02:04,004 Steve: Sure. 27 00:02:04,324 --> 00:02:09,074 If my younger self could see me now, I would've been flabbergasted. 28 00:02:09,104 --> 00:02:15,184 'cause I remember being at medical school, the last thing I was, I would've wanted to have done was anything to do with psychiatry. 29 00:02:15,184 --> 00:02:16,474 I hated psychiatry. 30 00:02:16,794 --> 00:02:22,004 And, uh, after qualifying, I was very much into running on adrenaline. 31 00:02:22,324 --> 00:02:24,034 And I trained as a general surgeon. 32 00:02:24,064 --> 00:02:25,054 I loved surgery. 33 00:02:25,374 --> 00:02:26,094 I loved working. 34 00:02:26,094 --> 00:02:34,524 I remember working at King's College Hospital where the most common surgical emergency in those days was a stabbing rather than appendicitis. 35 00:02:34,844 --> 00:02:41,969 I, I was always interested in working overseas, to help, working in, in a less privileged environment. 36 00:02:41,969 --> 00:02:49,839 So I worked for, with my wife, we went to Pakistan, where we worked with an NGO for a number of years where I worked as a surgeon. 37 00:02:50,159 --> 00:02:52,739 We had in mind that we would be there long term. 38 00:02:52,859 --> 00:02:57,069 That was, that was our long term goal, but it didn't go well for us. 39 00:02:57,129 --> 00:03:01,989 And in particular, my wife suffered very badly from depression whilst we were out there. 40 00:03:02,309 --> 00:03:05,159 And we ended up coming back sooner than we had planned. 41 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:11,809 And at that point I then came back to, to, to work in a GP surgery in Bradford, in Yorkshire. 42 00:03:12,129 --> 00:03:17,544 And, and I, I was working in a surgery that was dealing, treating people with opiate issues. 43 00:03:17,864 --> 00:03:24,064 And, and discovered that over a period of time that working in addiction was something that really interested me, really fascinated me. 44 00:03:24,384 --> 00:03:26,364 And that was, and that was quite a big part of our journey. 45 00:03:26,589 --> 00:03:31,479 At that time my wife was also going on a journey of, of inner healing. 46 00:03:31,849 --> 00:03:47,169 Something that neither of us had recognized that either of us needed, but, but it was interesting to see was it was life changing for her to see how certain things could w were, were transformative for her. 47 00:03:47,539 --> 00:03:54,299 And, and one thing in particular was forgiveness and something that I then also saw the power of in my own life. 48 00:03:54,619 --> 00:03:58,139 And it's become a big part of, of, of what we do now. 49 00:03:58,169 --> 00:04:03,749 We, I now run a, run a, a charity, a registered charity in the UK called the Keys Project. 50 00:04:03,749 --> 00:04:26,909 And we, we work in centers across the country helping, working primarily with churches, helping people to support men and women in their communities with addiction issues and, and, and forgiveness is one of the crucial aspects of, of, of our service and helping people to really find freedom from, from addiction, something that's not addressed at all well in, in health services, I don't believe. 51 00:04:27,069 --> 00:04:35,904 Rachel: And that's really fascinating, Steve, 'cause I don't hear forgiveness being talked about very much in, in non-religious circles. 52 00:04:35,904 --> 00:04:44,764 It seems to be something that sort of people have a bit of an opinion on, but we don't really talk about it that much or I haven't heard us talking about it that much. 53 00:04:45,084 --> 00:04:48,354 Is it, and let's just just call that out this outright at the beginning. 54 00:04:48,414 --> 00:04:50,664 Is it possible to, to do it? 55 00:04:50,694 --> 00:04:53,454 'cause obviously your charity works, works with churches. 56 00:04:53,724 --> 00:04:59,814 Is it just a purely religious thing or can people of any faith or no faith embrace the power of forgiveness? 57 00:05:00,081 --> 00:05:01,611 Steve: Absolutely it is. 58 00:05:01,931 --> 00:05:02,231 Yeah. 59 00:05:02,231 --> 00:05:04,591 It, it, it, it is recognized for many people. 60 00:05:04,591 --> 00:05:07,621 They see it as a, as a, as a, as a religious, religious issue. 61 00:05:07,621 --> 00:05:10,921 But very definitely, it's a, it's a principle that applies to every one of us. 62 00:05:11,241 --> 00:05:19,431 And I'm, I'm so aware of very many people of, of faith and of no faith whose lives have been transformed by forgiveness. 63 00:05:19,751 --> 00:05:31,366 And, and we could just talk about some examples, but, but actually one, one of, one of the, one of my most favorite example of transformation through forgiveness is the story of the railway man. 64 00:05:31,686 --> 00:05:36,396 I dunno whether you've seen the film, the Railway Man with Nicole Kidman and Colin Firth. 65 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:38,096 It's a totally true story. 66 00:05:38,416 --> 00:05:49,356 And of, of a man called Eric Lomax, who was a British radio operator in, in, in, in, in, in Singapore, was captured by the Ja, by the Japanese when Singapore fell in World War ii. 67 00:05:49,676 --> 00:05:52,166 And he was subsequently brutally tortured. 68 00:05:52,486 --> 00:05:58,226 And he, after the war, clearly suffered with post-traumatic stress. 69 00:05:58,546 --> 00:06:06,906 In, in the film, you see him lying on the, on his, on his bedroom floor at night screaming with, with, with the, with the nightmares. 70 00:06:06,911 --> 00:06:09,966 And, and this was a real, a real representation of how his life was. 71 00:06:09,971 --> 00:06:12,776 He had post-traumatic stress, disorder. 72 00:06:13,096 --> 00:06:36,801 And it so happened at sort of 20 years after the war, he became aware of a man called Nagase, who was one of his torturers, who was actually the translator for, for the Japanese, who was now working in, in Thailand, in, in the very place where he had been imprisoned, and this, and this man Nagase was now working as, as, as a, as a guide, as a museum guide. 73 00:06:37,121 --> 00:06:45,741 So, so Eric Lomax went out with revenge on his heart with his, you know, he, he actually, the, the film shows him carrying a knife. 74 00:06:45,771 --> 00:06:47,121 And that is exactly what happened. 75 00:06:47,126 --> 00:06:51,551 He, he, he went out there to get even to, to, to get revenge. 76 00:06:51,871 --> 00:06:54,621 And remarkably they reconciled. 77 00:06:54,941 --> 00:07:00,541 They, they somehow actually became really good friends. 78 00:07:00,861 --> 00:07:06,471 And what is wonderful is, is that when he came home, his nightmare ceased. 79 00:07:06,791 --> 00:07:10,211 His PTSD was, was basically cured. 80 00:07:10,531 --> 00:07:12,611 And that's a, a wonderful example. 81 00:07:12,611 --> 00:07:22,006 Nothing to do with faith, of, of where somebody has reconciled with their abuser and, and, and found peace and found healing and restoration. 82 00:07:22,326 --> 00:07:26,801 Which, which, which was interesting actually, just because I was mindful that this conversation would come up. 83 00:07:26,801 --> 00:07:29,591 I actually did a, I did a, a, a YouTube search. 84 00:07:29,651 --> 00:07:35,911 I was trying to get the G Nagase's name, and I saw a little clip, a little clip of the two of them being interviewed. 85 00:07:35,916 --> 00:07:36,721 It's very moving. 86 00:07:36,991 --> 00:07:41,263 And, and, and Nagase is just talking about the peace that he now has. 87 00:07:41,593 --> 00:07:45,988 He said, I think his words are that I can now die safely, i, I suppose he means peacefully. 88 00:07:46,288 --> 00:07:53,058 So it was a very much a two-way thing that, so, so Nagase was probably tormented by, by guilt. 89 00:07:53,378 --> 00:08:10,598 Eric Lomax was tormented by, by trauma and, and reconciliation was, was the path, was the path by which both of them got re uh, got a transformative piece that I don't think they could ever have got through medication or counseling or whatever else. 90 00:08:10,698 --> 00:08:12,528 And it's not a one-off thing. 91 00:08:12,533 --> 00:08:16,848 I think sometimes people think forgiveness is an act of saying, I forgive you. 92 00:08:16,908 --> 00:08:23,198 And it, and actually the act of saying, I forgive you may be part of it, but I, I would say for nearly everybody, it's a, it's a journey. 93 00:08:23,568 --> 00:08:28,278 And it's, it's gotta be something that you have to choose to do. 94 00:08:28,598 --> 00:08:31,328 And it has to be not based on how you feel as well. 95 00:08:31,328 --> 00:08:36,818 I think for a lot of people when, when forgiveness happens, it's something that's been considered for a while. 96 00:08:37,138 --> 00:08:42,928 And, and I think it's also for very important to recognize what forgiveness is and what forgiveness isn't. 97 00:08:43,248 --> 00:08:46,068 So that, that's for a lot of people that, that's the issue. 98 00:08:46,073 --> 00:08:50,448 I think people have got an idea of what they, they've got a, perhaps a false idea of what forgiveness is. 99 00:08:50,448 --> 00:08:54,398 Forgiveness for many people is, is letting somebody off the hook. 100 00:08:54,718 --> 00:09:08,673 And, and, and what we try and do is help people to realize that whether or not somebody is gonna be punished for what they've done, the best thing that you can do is get them off of your hook. 101 00:09:09,003 --> 00:09:11,378 Now, a lot, a lot of people think, well, why should I forgive? 102 00:09:11,378 --> 00:09:15,038 They've done such a, this person's done such a terrible thing to me or to somebody else. 103 00:09:15,368 --> 00:09:16,808 They don't deserve to be forgiven. 104 00:09:16,808 --> 00:09:19,088 And, and, and maybe that's true. 105 00:09:19,408 --> 00:09:25,158 Maybe we don't wanna let them off the hook, but surely there's a time when we wanna let them off our hook. 106 00:09:25,158 --> 00:09:32,668 And that's perhaps the most important message of, of forgiveness, is that we do it for ourselves rather than primarily for ourselves. 107 00:09:32,728 --> 00:09:41,658 I mean, we do it for the other person, but we do it first and foremost for ourselves to, to release ourselves from, from the pain, from the torment, from the trauma. 108 00:09:41,978 --> 00:09:49,838 I, I've been in many situations where I've been working with with key workers and, and clients, and we've been talking about the, the trauma that people have experienced. 109 00:09:50,108 --> 00:09:59,758 And the expression that I've often heard is you, is is the maybe the key worker or some saying, saying to the client, the patient, you know, that person is living rent free in your head. 110 00:10:00,078 --> 00:10:13,108 And when we hold onto a grudge, when we hold onto bitterness and to anger, then, then we're that per that the person who perpetrated the, the trauma that we've experienced is, is, is, is in our head living with us. 111 00:10:13,113 --> 00:10:16,768 And so that's maybe the most, most important reason to forgive someone. 112 00:10:16,928 --> 00:10:18,158 Rachel: That makes a lot of sense. 113 00:10:18,213 --> 00:10:25,078 I, I have heard the saying that that unforgiveness, holding on to unforgiveness is like drinking rat poison. 114 00:10:25,078 --> 00:10:26,248 In order to kill the rat. 115 00:10:26,878 --> 00:10:30,958 All you do is is is absolutely destroy yourself. 116 00:10:30,958 --> 00:10:41,892 So you're saying that forgiveness is a decision that you make not to keep on being anger and bitter at that person. 117 00:10:41,892 --> 00:10:43,662 Steve: Yeah, it's a decision you make. 118 00:10:43,667 --> 00:10:57,832 And I think most people recognize that, that they, I think people who find real freedom do so when they recognize that they are tormenting themselves with, with, with the, with, with the pain of, of whatever has happened. 119 00:10:58,152 --> 00:11:01,182 And, and so yeah, you, you're doing it for yourself. 120 00:11:01,502 --> 00:11:08,402 I mean, it's, it's nice to think that in, in many situations, so, so Nagase and, and, and, uh, Lomax, they became really good friends. 121 00:11:08,462 --> 00:11:10,112 So you're doing it for the other person as well. 122 00:11:10,322 --> 00:11:21,262 And we know the, we know the five domains of mental health and, and one of, when we, when we bless other people, when we do things for the benefit of other people, that is also beneficial for our own mental health as well. 123 00:11:21,262 --> 00:11:22,912 So, so it's a two-way street. 124 00:11:23,232 --> 00:11:35,846 But what, what, what we, there's, there's lots of things that worth talking about, and what's really important to discuss is that forgiving somebody is not condoning, is not letting, is not, is not suggesting for a second that what happened wasn't wrong. 125 00:11:35,851 --> 00:11:42,456 It's, I think it's always important to, to recognize what, what, what you did, what that person did was wrong, is wrong. 126 00:11:42,776 --> 00:11:45,446 And, and, but I'm gonna choose to let it go. 127 00:11:45,656 --> 00:11:54,501 And I think maybe for a lot of people letting go is perhaps a better word, is is, is is letting go of a burden that's on that, that's on their back. 128 00:11:54,801 --> 00:12:01,431 I've, I've been interested in, in studies that have been done on people that have forgiven them and that have not forgiven it. 129 00:12:01,431 --> 00:12:07,661 I think it must be very difficult to do a i it can't be possible to do a con, a double blind controlled trial for, for forgiveness. 130 00:12:07,661 --> 00:12:09,281 But I know a lot of research has been done. 131 00:12:09,601 --> 00:12:17,841 And I, I was interested in a study that I heard of done by a university in, in Rotterdam called Erasmus University. 132 00:12:18,161 --> 00:12:27,061 And the, the researchers got a, a, a number of people to research to, to journal their, their stories of trauma. 133 00:12:27,381 --> 00:12:36,175 And they were then, from, from the journaling of their trauma, they were able to recognize who had gone on a forgiveness journey and who hadn't, who was bitter and who would let the thing go. 134 00:12:36,495 --> 00:12:44,575 And, and this sounds, sounds crazy, but they did some got these people then to, to jump and they measured their heights, how, how high they could jump. 135 00:12:45,140 --> 00:12:50,175 And crazy as it seems, the people who had gone on a forgiveness journey were able to jump higher. 136 00:12:50,495 --> 00:12:54,005 I think it was like, you know, sort of literally a, a, a new, a number of inches higher. 137 00:12:54,325 --> 00:12:57,355 So it was, it was as though they were literally unburdened. 138 00:12:57,675 --> 00:13:02,905 The, the weight of the forgiveness physically enabled them to jump higher. 139 00:13:03,225 --> 00:13:07,205 So whether or not that could be substantiated with further research. 140 00:13:07,235 --> 00:13:07,895 I don't know. 141 00:13:07,895 --> 00:13:13,565 But there is a real sense that when you forgive somebody, you, you let go of a burden that's weighing you down. 142 00:13:13,885 --> 00:13:24,515 And so you do it for yourself and you do it for yourself regardless of whether the, the person who has traumatized you, knows about the forgiveness, whether or not they're alive. 143 00:13:24,835 --> 00:13:28,435 I mean, some, you know, sometimes we have to forgive people that have died. 144 00:13:28,755 --> 00:13:35,870 And I mean, I, I remember as a, as an American author who wrote from the subject, he, he describe, called Philip Yancy. 145 00:13:35,870 --> 00:13:42,840 And he describes after the World War ii a, a rabbi crossing the Atlantic and he decided that he was gonna forgive Hitler. 146 00:13:42,900 --> 00:13:48,350 He had, I think this man had lost his family in the Holocaust, but he, he decided to forgive, forgive Hitler. 147 00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:50,870 'cause he didn't wanna take Hitler with him to America. 148 00:13:51,190 --> 00:13:52,030 And Hitler was dead. 149 00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:57,110 But, but there was still this decision to let go of what had happened. 150 00:13:57,430 --> 00:14:10,025 And so, yeah, let, I think letting go is probably a, a really good second word that we could use, second phrase that we could use for, for the term forgiveness rather than it is certainly not condoning, it's certainly not saying that what happened was, okay. 151 00:14:10,538 --> 00:14:18,058 Rachel: Because I do think that is the image that most people, that springs to mind with most people when they think of forgiveness, it's someone coming going, oh, forgive me. 152 00:14:18,063 --> 00:14:19,708 And then someone says, oh yes, I forgive you. 153 00:14:19,708 --> 00:14:20,608 Then it's all okay. 154 00:14:20,608 --> 00:14:21,568 But that's not what we're doing. 155 00:14:21,568 --> 00:14:28,548 We're letting go of the burden of resentment and bitterness that we are carrying towards that other person. 156 00:14:28,548 --> 00:14:38,718 So just our whole mental capacity isn't taking up and thinking about it all the time and plotting revenge and wishing that they would get their comeuppance and that that things were different. 157 00:14:38,998 --> 00:14:40,828 Steve, I've got so many questions about this. 158 00:14:40,828 --> 00:14:43,918 In a minute I'm gonna ask you how on earth can you just, just let go there? 159 00:14:43,948 --> 00:14:46,318 'cause I'm thinking there must be some sort of process involved. 160 00:14:46,618 --> 00:14:56,728 But firstly, is it, and, and there will be people listening to this that have had desperately difficult things happen to them and, and might have ongoing stuff happening to them. 161 00:14:56,728 --> 00:15:05,583 For example, you know, someone having a malicious complaint that, that, that that's going all the way that they're having to defend and they're having to deal with it every day. 162 00:15:05,903 --> 00:15:11,663 It seems pretty impossible to think that you could forgive that person that's actually still doing stuff to you. 163 00:15:11,983 --> 00:15:12,813 Steve: Mm Okay. 164 00:15:12,888 --> 00:15:29,608 Well, I, I'll give you a, a story in a second, but what, what I'd say is that remarkably, there are some situations where people have reconciliation and despite horrific abuse become good friends, and, and, and Eric Lomax in Nagase is an example. 165 00:15:29,928 --> 00:15:42,098 But I think there are situations where there is ongoing abuse, where there is ongoing trauma, you can forgive someone and still do something else about, about the situation. 166 00:15:42,383 --> 00:15:50,013 I'll, I'll give you a, a situation that I know about personally is a lady called Carolyn Bramhall, who's written a book about her own experiences. 167 00:15:50,333 --> 00:15:53,783 Carolyn was horrifically abused as a child. 168 00:15:54,103 --> 00:15:58,068 And, and she writes about that in a book, which is available. 169 00:15:58,068 --> 00:15:58,968 People might like to read it. 170 00:15:58,968 --> 00:16:00,558 It's called Am I a Good Girl Yet? 171 00:16:00,878 --> 00:16:10,228 And it was, it was actually much later in life when she decided to, when she'd actually dealt with, with the, with with the forgiveness issue. 172 00:16:10,548 --> 00:16:17,508 Interestingly, she had years of psychiatry, lots of a, a, a admissions to hospital. 173 00:16:17,828 --> 00:16:19,508 None of those really worked for her. 174 00:16:19,778 --> 00:16:23,288 The thing that really helped her was a journey of forgiveness. 175 00:16:23,608 --> 00:16:27,148 But at the same time, she reported her father to the police. 176 00:16:27,178 --> 00:16:31,508 So it was, it was much later in life that she reported her and, and her and her father. 177 00:16:31,508 --> 00:16:33,638 And she, and she yeah, she testified against him. 178 00:16:33,958 --> 00:16:37,518 So she was able to, on one hand, to forgive him and find freedom. 179 00:16:37,838 --> 00:16:45,318 That was a massive part of her finding freedom from the pain of her childhood abuse, but at the same time testified against her father. 180 00:16:45,638 --> 00:16:52,798 So, so, no, we, we, we don't let people off when we forgive them necessarily 181 00:16:52,958 --> 00:17:02,947 Rachel: But if it's an ongoing situation, it's gonna be hard, but then again, I guess you have nothing to gain from carrying that burden even if, even if that person's still doing stuff. 182 00:17:03,097 --> 00:17:12,767 You still have to put the boundaries in, you know, take the action that you need, you need to do, but it's just gonna be easier for you if you're not constantly resenting, feeling bitter. 183 00:17:12,947 --> 00:17:15,257 And that must be so, so difficult. 184 00:17:15,257 --> 00:17:17,287 I mean, I, like you said, it's, it's a journey. 185 00:17:17,287 --> 00:17:18,697 It can't just be like a one-off. 186 00:17:18,697 --> 00:17:18,937 Right. 187 00:17:18,942 --> 00:17:20,407 I'm gonna forgive them boom oh, great. 188 00:17:20,407 --> 00:17:20,827 That's gone. 189 00:17:20,827 --> 00:17:21,847 I feel so much better now. 190 00:17:21,847 --> 00:17:26,187 It must be, it must be really hard and take quite, quite a lot of work. 191 00:17:26,247 --> 00:17:28,617 So how, how do you help people do that? 192 00:17:28,707 --> 00:17:31,197 Steve: We, we talked earlier about the fact that it's a, a process. 193 00:17:31,227 --> 00:17:32,277 It's a journey. 194 00:17:32,277 --> 00:17:34,887 And so it's not, it's not a, a quick fix. 195 00:17:35,207 --> 00:17:43,647 And, and I, I think, the, the successes we've had are when we've taken people on a journey and help 'em to recognize that, that that is a, it is a process. 196 00:17:43,967 --> 00:17:49,677 And for many people, the first step is, is to actually be willing to forgive. 197 00:17:49,997 --> 00:17:53,087 And that even is a hard thing for people to even consider. 198 00:17:53,327 --> 00:17:59,627 So this might sound silly, but sometimes the best first step is to be willing to be willing to forgive. 199 00:17:59,947 --> 00:18:05,907 And that, and that's a really good starting point from, so from there you can then explore several things. 200 00:18:05,907 --> 00:18:09,947 You can explore the fact that you're gonna do this for your own benefit. 201 00:18:10,577 --> 00:18:34,082 As, as you were talking earlier, I was, I was thinking of one particular patient I remember seeing in our, in our clinic who had terrible alcohol addiction and the, and his addiction was fueled by the pain of knowing that somebody who had assaulted him and actually taken one of his eyes, was still out there and, and, and he was unable to get a conviction for this person. 202 00:18:34,082 --> 00:18:37,472 And he was just totally tormented by, by this situation. 203 00:18:37,792 --> 00:18:54,262 And it was just so difficult for me knowing that somehow if this guy could somehow have learnt to forgive despite the fact the man had not, had his not, not been arrested and not been convicted of his crime, that he would've, that he would've been able to find some, some, some freedom. 204 00:18:54,582 --> 00:19:12,507 So, so it's a, it's a journey helping people to, to, to make that decision, to be willing to forgive, to recognize that if they do so, that they're doing it for themselves, as you say, that they're gonna stop taking the poison that's, that's not gonna do anything to the person who, who assaulted them a, abused them, whatever. 205 00:19:12,827 --> 00:19:18,762 And then also what's crucially important is to recognize that it's not something that you can do in relation to your emotions. 206 00:19:18,762 --> 00:19:23,582 You, our emotions are terrible guides to, to what's right and wrong. 207 00:19:23,882 --> 00:19:30,832 And, and sometimes we just have to do it with gritted teeth, despite the fact that we don't really feel any desire to forgive the person. 208 00:19:31,152 --> 00:19:32,527 And then it, and then it's a process. 209 00:19:32,677 --> 00:19:36,637 And, and it's something that people will have to do on many levels repeatedly. 210 00:19:36,957 --> 00:19:44,172 Some period of times people will reach a point where they have forgiven someone, and then some, then, uh, then a, they'll, they'll, they'll be triggered later in life. 211 00:19:44,172 --> 00:19:45,882 Something else will happen and they'll remember it. 212 00:19:45,882 --> 00:19:47,832 And, and it's something that you have to go back to. 213 00:19:48,152 --> 00:19:56,572 But another big important part of the journey is recognizing what you have come to believe as a result of the trauma. 214 00:19:56,572 --> 00:20:12,827 And that, and this is probably one of the most important things that, that we help people to do, is that, that very, very often, this is one of the, one of the most powerful ways in which we help people find freedom is by addressing the belief that has arisen as a result of their trauma. 215 00:20:13,147 --> 00:20:16,117 And, and, and it's, and, and that's the second part of the journey. 216 00:20:16,437 --> 00:20:22,057 The second part of the journey is to look at what happened and how it made the person feel. 217 00:20:22,377 --> 00:20:31,135 So with our program, somebody that's come to my mind is, is a lady who, who relapsed into drug use when her friend committed suicide. 218 00:20:31,455 --> 00:20:40,510 And when, when we worked with her, we realized that she had, her life had become difficult for her when her father left her as I think she was about four years old. 219 00:20:40,830 --> 00:20:46,880 And what she had grown up with was the belief that people that she loved would leave her. 220 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,290 And, and, and that sort of scenario is, is very common. 221 00:20:50,290 --> 00:20:53,410 So somebody will be abused maybe as a child. 222 00:20:53,410 --> 00:20:58,380 And I have this feeling that I'm dirty, that I, that I deserve to be, that I'm no good. 223 00:20:58,700 --> 00:21:00,350 I I was abused 'cause I was bad. 224 00:21:00,670 --> 00:21:16,154 And, and, and so if, if we can first help people to recognize that what happened was wrong, choose to forgive from that, we can then look at addressing the, the belief that has arisen as a result of, of, of the initial trauma. 225 00:21:16,154 --> 00:21:19,244 And that, and that that can be really powerfully healing. 226 00:21:19,244 --> 00:21:22,114 That's what's so often transformative, helping people. 227 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:34,469 No, I'm not, I'm not bad, and to address, so to address that for this lay I'm thinking of the, the, the, the, the lie that she had come to believe that people that love her, will leave her, that that's not a, that's not a truth. 228 00:21:34,474 --> 00:21:38,639 It felt, felt truth, and it was a major factor in her relapsing into drug use. 229 00:21:38,959 --> 00:21:41,389 That that was, that was also very transformative for her. 230 00:21:41,659 --> 00:21:44,359 And that, that situation has, has often helped a lot of people. 231 00:21:44,679 --> 00:21:45,999 But it's, it's, it's a process. 232 00:21:45,999 --> 00:21:48,069 It's a long process, but a powerful one. 233 00:21:48,229 --> 00:22:09,849 Rachel: That makes a lot of sense to me because I guess what happens when someone has done something to you or, or repeatedly doing it, is that when it's triggering that underlying belief of, yeah, if, uh, everybody will leave me because I'm not that likable or something like that, then whenever you think about that person, that belief is triggered again, so it just makes you feel totally awful. 234 00:22:10,169 --> 00:22:12,509 And then you're blaming that person for make you fit, making you feel that. 235 00:22:12,509 --> 00:22:13,499 And it's really unpleasant. 236 00:22:13,499 --> 00:22:15,629 And so no wonder you get bitter and resentful. 237 00:22:15,629 --> 00:22:25,429 So if you then do the work, presumably through therapy, CBT, all those sorts of things, you can then start to shift that belief. 238 00:22:25,459 --> 00:22:29,059 Then when you think about that person, it's not gonna trigger that belief so much. 239 00:22:29,059 --> 00:22:33,109 You can say, oh, actually they did it because of that, not because I'm unlovable or whatever. 240 00:22:33,429 --> 00:22:36,539 Then it becomes a lot easier to let go of the burden. 241 00:22:36,544 --> 00:22:39,109 So I can totally see how that, how that works. 242 00:22:39,109 --> 00:22:44,684 Is there a particular type of therapy that, that you would use or a, a system that you'd use to try and do that? 243 00:22:44,844 --> 00:22:49,854 Steve: Yeah, I mean, we don't formally do CBT, but, but CBT is very simple, isn't it? 244 00:22:49,854 --> 00:23:04,034 And, and, and I can't remember whose triangle it is, but the, it is the triangle of what you, what you think affects the way you feel, the way you feel affects the way you behave, and that, that in turn then affects the way you think. 245 00:23:04,124 --> 00:23:21,934 And so it's, it's a conscious decision to think differently and, but what works for, for many of us, I, I've certainly used it for myself, is, is, is affirmations where, where maybe on a daily basis, you, you will, uh, read, read through things and, and just reflect on some thoughts 246 00:23:22,234 --> 00:23:30,336 that, address the way you've been thinking, which, which is CBT, so it's, it's a sort of an informal, an informal CBT, and it's powerful. 247 00:23:30,366 --> 00:23:30,966 It works. 248 00:23:31,286 --> 00:23:56,511 And, and, when we, when we recognize a, a faulty belief system that we've, we've been living with and choose to address that on a daily basis, I dunno what, what, what it is about 40 days, but, but, but what repeatedly, if people do it for at least a month and, and, and on a daily basis, just reflect on, on, on what, what was a faulty belief system and what now is the truth, things change. 249 00:23:56,571 --> 00:23:57,891 Think things shift. 250 00:23:58,051 --> 00:24:03,061 The new way of thinking will affect the way you feel, which will then in turn affect the way you behave. 251 00:24:03,381 --> 00:24:06,291 I mean, CBT works and, and, and that's what we're talking about. 252 00:24:06,341 --> 00:24:14,011 But, but forgiveness is, is, is a really powerful way of just initiating that process that is, is gonna be transformative for many people. 253 00:24:14,351 --> 00:24:21,607 Rachel: We've been talking about people that have had like big traumatic things happen, you know, the, the rabbi in the Holocaust and somebody who was abused. 254 00:24:21,927 --> 00:24:25,887 What about those of us that haven't had these really, really awful things? 255 00:24:25,977 --> 00:24:30,177 But actually there are, there are lots of things that have gone on, gone on in the past. 256 00:24:30,177 --> 00:24:31,887 You know, nobody's family is perfect. 257 00:24:31,887 --> 00:24:32,247 Are they? 258 00:24:32,247 --> 00:24:34,137 We all, we all muck our children up. 259 00:24:34,137 --> 00:24:35,967 All those, all those sorts of things. 260 00:24:36,287 --> 00:24:37,517 How does that work for us? 261 00:24:37,517 --> 00:24:39,467 Do we still need to be thinking about forgiveness? 262 00:24:39,627 --> 00:24:40,887 Steve: I I would recommend it. 263 00:24:40,887 --> 00:24:42,417 And it doesn't need to be heavy. 264 00:24:42,737 --> 00:24:48,287 It's the sort of thing that I would've been when I was talking about my earlier self, I would've been very dismissive about. 265 00:24:48,287 --> 00:24:56,211 But I, I would, I would suggest that we would all absolutely benefit from going through the practice of forgiveness. 266 00:24:56,531 --> 00:24:57,821 And you mentioned your parents. 267 00:24:57,821 --> 00:25:07,751 So how many of us are actually living our lives on something that we've grown up to believe because of how we were, how we were treated? 268 00:25:07,821 --> 00:25:21,026 And it may have been totally sort of seemingly innocuous, but so many of us are striving at work because we learnt as children that we've gotta work hard to please our mom and dad, to get their affirmation. 269 00:25:21,326 --> 00:25:33,386 And that, and then, you know, decades later we're slo slogging, at work and our parents may have passed away or whatever, just to try and get the affirmation that we believe we will get if we work harder. 270 00:25:33,756 --> 00:25:40,368 Something that's um, really powerful in our program is a process that we call the big green heart. 271 00:25:40,688 --> 00:25:47,198 And, and, and I would absolutely recommend doing a process like this for, for everybody, whether or not you think you need it. 272 00:25:47,518 --> 00:25:55,918 So one of our trustees, it's a lady called Priscilla Smith, and she's no relation, has come up with a very simple technique. 273 00:25:56,238 --> 00:26:04,268 She's got a, she has a, has a picture of a heart, a green heart, she has black markers that are put on the heart and each one represents an emotion. 274 00:26:04,588 --> 00:26:09,118 So people look at their heart and they look at the things on their heart that are causing them difficulty. 275 00:26:09,118 --> 00:26:14,988 And, and, and as I say, some of us may not even think we've got much there, but if we look close enough, we'll realize we have. 276 00:26:15,308 --> 00:26:17,828 And we'll try, try and work out where did that come in? 277 00:26:17,828 --> 00:26:18,728 Why, why is that? 278 00:26:18,908 --> 00:26:20,288 Where's that anger coming from? 279 00:26:20,288 --> 00:26:21,978 Where's that, frustration? 280 00:26:21,978 --> 00:26:23,088 Where's that irritation? 281 00:26:23,178 --> 00:26:24,318 Whatever it may be. 282 00:26:24,638 --> 00:26:33,438 And more often than not, there will be somebody that needs to be forgiven that, that is at the root of that particular unhealthy emotion. 283 00:26:33,758 --> 00:26:40,048 And, and going through the process of taking that thing off the heart and putting it in a bin, simplistic as it may seem. 284 00:26:40,368 --> 00:26:41,268 It's very powerful. 285 00:26:41,298 --> 00:26:42,798 It, it, it works for a lot of people. 286 00:26:42,798 --> 00:26:50,198 And so that's part of what we, we, we would recommend is actually having some sort of symbolic act because it does work. 287 00:26:50,468 --> 00:26:53,228 I've heard of people doing, of different people doing different things. 288 00:26:53,228 --> 00:26:58,198 Sometimes it's writing a letter, writing a letter, whether or not you're, very often, you're not even gonna send it. 289 00:26:58,198 --> 00:27:06,393 Sometimes you're gonna write the letter, screw it up, put it in the bin, or, or write down whatever it is on a stone and throw the stone into the river. 290 00:27:06,713 --> 00:27:11,123 But sometimes the symbolic act is, is, is, is really very helpful. 291 00:27:11,303 --> 00:27:25,538 But, but going back to your question, who, whoever we are, however okay, we, we think we are, I, I would say most of us could, some, would sometimes benefit from a, a, a time of reflection and, and consider, you know, who do I, who do I need to forgive? 292 00:27:25,598 --> 00:27:35,288 And the who, what, what emotion, what negative thought process is still impacting my life that is actually rooted in something that needs to be forgiven? 293 00:27:35,611 --> 00:27:51,176 Rachel: So Steve, if I was to come to you and say, actually, you know, I, uh, there's something that's really been eating away at me, and I, I do think I need to forgive that person, but I just hate them so much and I, I, I really can't, every time I see them, my blood just boils, what would you, what would you do with me? 294 00:27:51,553 --> 00:28:02,468 Steve: We, we would look at how it's affecting you and, and that you are hooked to that person, that person that has got their hook in you, if you like. 295 00:28:02,788 --> 00:28:11,628 And again, it goes back to that whole business of the poison that you are drinking, hoping that, that, that might, impact them, whereas in reality, it's you that, that's being poisoned. 296 00:28:11,844 --> 00:28:19,184 And um, help you to recognize that if you could choose to let that go, not to say that what that person did. 297 00:28:19,504 --> 00:28:30,264 Is okay, but that you are going is is that you are going to accept what's, what's happened, not condone it, but you're gonna let it go, that will be the first step. 298 00:28:30,608 --> 00:28:37,988 I'm, I'm working very much in the field of addiction and the program that our program makes use of the 12 steps. 299 00:28:37,988 --> 00:28:52,318 I haven't been on a 12 step journey myself, but I think we've got so much to learn from, from the, the 12 step fellowships, and a big part of the, of, of the, of the 12 steps is, is is reconciliation. 300 00:28:52,638 --> 00:28:58,278 But what I'm thinking about is in every, every 12 step meeting, they, they pray the Serenity Prayer. 301 00:28:58,598 --> 00:29:07,218 And a lot of us are familiar with that prayer, but it's so, God, grant me the, the, the ability to accept the things I cannot change. 302 00:29:07,278 --> 00:29:11,828 I've, I've not got the wording exactly right, and the courage to change the things that I can change. 303 00:29:12,148 --> 00:29:17,538 It's, it's that internal fighting that that is what's is, is what's retraumatizing all the time. 304 00:29:18,038 --> 00:29:22,818 You know, your blood's boiling because, 'cause you just want, want that person to get their comeuppance. 305 00:29:23,138 --> 00:29:25,268 And that, and that's retraumatizing you all the time. 306 00:29:25,563 --> 00:29:28,323 Rachel: I love the fact you brought that up, Steve, that we use this all the time. 307 00:29:28,323 --> 00:29:31,133 The, the, the Serenity Prayer as a zone of power. 308 00:29:31,133 --> 00:29:35,903 So it's, you know, recognize stuff that's in your control, what stuff that's out outside of your control. 309 00:29:35,963 --> 00:29:41,273 And so often we just rail against those things that are outside of our control. 310 00:29:41,543 --> 00:29:50,903 And what I love about the Serenity Prayer, and I only found this out recently, is, I looked up what the definition of the word serenity in that prayer is, because I'm like, I don't quite understand. 311 00:29:50,903 --> 00:29:51,383 Grant me this. 312 00:29:51,703 --> 00:29:57,223 I think it, it, the word is, the phrase is, grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change. 313 00:29:57,223 --> 00:29:58,743 Well, what on earth does that mean? 314 00:29:58,743 --> 00:30:02,513 And I, I found somewhere that someone's interpreted it as. 315 00:30:02,833 --> 00:30:04,843 Unclouded acceptance. 316 00:30:04,903 --> 00:30:08,113 So the serenity is, is this unclouded acceptance. 317 00:30:08,173 --> 00:30:16,413 And as you've been saying that, it's made me think that forgiveness is a way of having unclouded acceptance of a situation. 318 00:30:16,733 --> 00:30:20,003 Because while you're unforgiving, you're rating against it, you are wanting revenge. 319 00:30:20,008 --> 00:30:33,513 You are that you are holding that person to, to something that they've got to, you know, they owe you something, but the unclouded acceptance bit probably is making that decision to go, okay, I'm gonna absolutely let this go. 320 00:30:33,813 --> 00:30:36,123 'cause because I can't do anything about it anyway. 321 00:30:36,443 --> 00:30:44,323 And if I keep hold of it, that's just gonna cause me stress, 'cause that's what we get if we don't accept the stuff that's outside our control, we just get really stressed. 322 00:30:44,643 --> 00:30:47,183 So forgiveness is a, is a massive part of that. 323 00:30:47,183 --> 00:30:54,143 So I I, I really love that and I love the fact that you can have a, you can have clouded acceptance where you just, like, then, then you become very victim, like don't you? 324 00:30:54,143 --> 00:30:57,053 Oh, poor me, I can't do anything about this. 325 00:30:57,058 --> 00:30:58,283 It's everybody else's fault. 326 00:30:58,283 --> 00:31:04,193 And, and this is not negating the fact that often it is other people's fault and there are, you know, there are real victims out there. 327 00:31:04,193 --> 00:31:05,363 That's not what I'm talking about. 328 00:31:05,363 --> 00:31:09,553 I'm talking about the victim mentality that's, I just have to put up with it. 329 00:31:09,873 --> 00:31:17,716 I can't do anything about it, but unclouded acceptance is I can do something about the way that I accept the thing that I can't change. 330 00:31:17,876 --> 00:31:18,296 Steve: Yes. 331 00:31:18,296 --> 00:31:32,856 I mean, that, that term victim is something that was, was absolutely wanting to come onto because, because what we're doing from in, in the process of forgiving is moving from becoming, from being a victim to becoming an overcomer. 332 00:31:33,063 --> 00:31:34,279 And, and, and, yeah. 333 00:31:34,279 --> 00:31:45,429 Accepting, accepting the the, the what you can't change and choosing to change what you can change, you're changing yourself from victim to overcomer. 334 00:31:45,522 --> 00:31:50,119 Rachel: Yeah, we often talk to people about power language, actually, when we talk about how to change the stories in your head. 335 00:31:50,119 --> 00:31:54,509 So I guess what I'd try and do would be to make myself a bit of a power mantra. 336 00:31:54,509 --> 00:31:59,179 So I'm choosing to forgive this person or let, let them off the hook, or maybe let it go. 337 00:31:59,209 --> 00:32:15,919 Maybe I'm choosing to let this go so that I can just stop thinking about it all the time and get a peace, even if I feel quite annoyed and angry and they're not being punished or something like that, it's so that I could just keep saying that to myself or, or, or the more positive thing is, you know, 338 00:32:15,924 --> 00:32:23,599 and I am not a bad person just because that person told me 20 years ago that I was, or, or, or whatever the thing I need to, need to, need to forgive for. 339 00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:23,869 So it's, it's. 340 00:32:24,189 --> 00:32:27,444 It's like anything, it's just a combination of loads of different things, isn't it? 341 00:32:27,604 --> 00:32:45,254 Steve: And I think also what is very helpful, and I'm thinking now of the 12 steps, is that on one hand you are forgiving people that have hurt you, harmed you, but also you are recognizing that there are people that, that we have all harmed and impacted in a negative way. 342 00:32:45,284 --> 00:32:49,574 So that, that's, again, that's gonna help us come outta that victim mentality. 343 00:32:49,894 --> 00:32:56,275 And um, something that, that sort of just reminds me of is, is, is the massive importance of forgiving ourselves. 344 00:32:56,595 --> 00:33:05,432 We need to go through the process sometimes of looking at what we have done to others, as a way of helping ourselves to forgive people that we need to forgive. 345 00:33:05,752 --> 00:33:12,812 But at the same time so many people are tormented by the, the, the things that, that they themselves have done wrong. 346 00:33:13,182 --> 00:33:14,412 And we need to forgive ourselves. 347 00:33:14,412 --> 00:33:18,462 It's, I think every time you have, you, you consider something that you regret. 348 00:33:18,782 --> 00:33:23,942 I mean, I've often, there's, there's a lot of things that I regret, a lot of things I wish I had done, I had done differently. 349 00:33:24,262 --> 00:33:31,172 And I just have to, I, I, I like the expression I heard Gabor Maté say, you know, be kind to your former self. 350 00:33:31,492 --> 00:33:35,152 Have compassion on the person that you once were, and forgive yourself. 351 00:33:35,212 --> 00:33:41,947 You know, you like they, they muck us up, our mom and dad, but we ourselves do the same thing. 352 00:33:42,267 --> 00:33:44,427 And, and we just have to let it go. 353 00:33:44,457 --> 00:33:50,940 Let ourselves go, let ourselves off the hook sometimes that, that might, that might be the most important thing that, some of us have to do. 354 00:33:51,263 --> 00:33:55,002 Rachel: Yeah, because it's gonna be very difficult to do that for other people if we are not doing that for ourselves. 355 00:33:55,062 --> 00:33:56,532 Just, that's just unfair, isn't it? 356 00:33:57,072 --> 00:33:59,952 Why should we let them off if I'm still beating myself up for what I've done? 357 00:34:00,002 --> 00:34:00,517 Steve: Totally. 358 00:34:00,517 --> 00:34:00,847 Yeah. 359 00:34:00,847 --> 00:34:02,497 And that's probably a big part of the process. 360 00:34:02,657 --> 00:34:04,247 Rachel: Gosh, Steve, we're out of time. 361 00:34:04,247 --> 00:34:05,807 That, that's just been really fascinating. 362 00:34:05,807 --> 00:34:08,297 There's probably lots, lots more that, that we could talk about. 363 00:34:08,773 --> 00:34:23,513 If you were to sort of give three top tips for people that were just starting to explore the sale and thinking, yeah, there are probably a few people I do need to let go of, as it were, and forgive, what, what would your top three tips be for people? 364 00:34:23,673 --> 00:34:23,963 Steve: Okay. 365 00:34:24,333 --> 00:34:26,433 Well, to take time. 366 00:34:26,763 --> 00:34:31,283 I listened to you talking about taking time out in the day recently. 367 00:34:31,603 --> 00:34:40,203 Take time out in the day, and take time out in the week, have a have a day to, to rest and, and use that rest to just, to be still and to reflect. 368 00:34:40,523 --> 00:34:45,433 So, so that's a big part of, of, of the journey that's, that's, uh, rest and reflect. 369 00:34:45,433 --> 00:34:46,483 That's, that'll be two. 370 00:34:47,142 --> 00:35:01,665 And the practice of affirmations, declarations to just to choose to believe the things that are gonna be transformative, that you know, that find, find some mantras, if you like, to put it that way, that, that are gonna help you think differently, the, the power thinking that you referred to earlier. 371 00:35:01,802 --> 00:35:10,652 Rachel: I love what you said about the zone of power and the, the serenity prayer and just, uh, getting people to look at what does unclouded acceptance look like? 372 00:35:10,657 --> 00:35:14,762 And that probably for a lot of situations will mean, will mean forgiveness. 373 00:35:14,972 --> 00:35:21,817 So adding that into that arsenal of how do I, how do I just accept stuff that's really bugging me, but I can't do anything about 374 00:35:21,977 --> 00:35:23,087 Steve: absolutely no. 375 00:35:23,092 --> 00:35:24,257 It's, uh, powerful stuff. 376 00:35:24,497 --> 00:35:26,297 I mean, and there's, so, as you say, we're outta of time. 377 00:35:26,302 --> 00:35:29,717 There's so much more we could talk about there, but it, but it's, it's a, it's a massive principle. 378 00:35:29,717 --> 00:35:32,327 It affects individuals, it affects nations. 379 00:35:32,647 --> 00:35:36,547 And, and there's, it's, it's, it's, hopefully it's becoming a new way of thinking. 380 00:35:36,547 --> 00:35:38,797 There's a whole area of restorative justice as well. 381 00:35:39,117 --> 00:35:44,897 It's, it is something that's been sadly neglected in so many people's thinking, certainly in the medical sphere. 382 00:35:45,217 --> 00:35:48,757 But hopefully as time goes by, we'll, we'll be more forgiveness focused. 383 00:35:48,817 --> 00:35:52,147 Rachel: If somebody wanted to explore this more, where would you direct them to? 384 00:35:52,147 --> 00:35:54,727 Are there any sort of good books or websites people could look at? 385 00:35:54,863 --> 00:35:57,893 Steve: I mean the, the big green heart is, if somebody actually wants some help. 386 00:35:57,983 --> 00:35:59,513 'cause a lot of people need help. 387 00:35:59,833 --> 00:36:02,963 So, it's biggreenheart.org. 388 00:36:02,983 --> 00:36:12,598 And if somebody wants some help in, in forgiving, you, you can, you can book a, a little session there, which, which a lot of people, many people have found really, really helpful. 389 00:36:12,771 --> 00:36:14,541 Rachel: Steve, thank you so much for your time. 390 00:36:14,546 --> 00:36:19,821 That's just been, been fascinating and we'll have to get you back on again at some point to talk to more about some of this stuff. 391 00:36:19,859 --> 00:36:20,219 Steve: Thank you. 392 00:36:20,279 --> 00:36:21,239 Well, it's been a great pleasure. 393 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:27,229 I've enjoyed your podcasts over, I think a few years now, so it's, uh, great to actually meet you on a podcast. 394 00:36:27,549 --> 00:36:28,209 Thank you, Rachel. 395 00:36:29,902 --> 00:36:30,812 Rachel: Thanks for listening. 396 00:36:31,072 --> 00:36:35,432 Don't forget, we provide a self coaching CPD workbook for every episode. 397 00:36:35,752 --> 00:36:38,592 You can sign up for it via the link in the show notes. 398 00:36:39,042 --> 00:36:42,362 And if this episode was helpful, then please share it with a friend. 399 00:36:42,842 --> 00:36:48,342 Get in touch with any comments or suggestions at hello@youarenotafrog.com. 400 00:36:48,632 --> 00:36:49,822 I love to hear from you. 401 00:36:49,952 --> 00:36:55,412 And finally, if you're enjoying the podcast, please rate it and leave a review wherever you're listening. 402 00:36:55,662 --> 00:36:56,652 It really helps. 403 00:36:56,882 --> 00:36:57,582 Bye for now.