Welcome to the Functional Tennis Podcast.

I'm your host, Fabio Molly, and I bring you insights and lessons from players, coaches, parents and experts who are ingrained in the world of high level tennis.

Today, I chat to Belgian player Kimmer Cooper Jams, a former junior French Open champion who three years later broke into the top 100, but only for a few weeks.

He tells us all about the mental challenges he faced dealing with the yips, and how hard it is to return to the top 100.

We also chat about ADP, Player Mentoring Program, advice for younger players, and bringing balance into his life.

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Just send me a DM on Instagram or you can email me@fabiounctionaltennis.com okay, here is Kimmer.

Kimmer, welcome to the Functional Tennis Podcast.

How are you?

Very good.

How are you, Fabio?

Yeah, I'm very happy that I get to be on the podcast.

Great.

Great to have you on.

And tell me you're in a hotel room there.

Where are you this week?

Currently in Monastery, playing 25K Monaster, Tunisia.

For people who don't know where that.

Is, it's home of the futures of the world.

They have futures every week there, don't they?

They don't have it in December and January, I guess, but yeah, other than that, they have pretty much a future every week.

This week they even have a 25k and a 15k for the men's and the 15k for the women's.

So yeah, it's home of the futures, as you say.

Well, maybe Antalya.

That's the other one, isn't it?

Where there's futures on all the time.

Yeah, true.

And there's also Sharm El Sheikh, who has quite a lot of futures.

So yeah, there's a couple of spots.

Okay, how's life?

You've recently been on a good run.

You've done some, you've won a few futures, you're winning this Week you're feeling good?

Yeah, I've actually won not last week but two weeks in a row also here in Monastir and now today I won my second round so I'm in the quarters here.

So I'm on a yeah, 12 match win streak.

I don't want to jinx it but I hope it'll continue for a bit longer.

Good man.

And any reason why.

Why are you feeling so good?

Why is your game good?

It's been actually the first tournament where I feel like my body has been in great shape right here.

It's actually quite nice.

We play in the resort.

The gyms like is inside the resort as well.

So I just get to focus on my body, on my tennis.

There's no distractions so I guess that's yeah.

Part of it.

And team wise, you on your own there or is there somebody with you?

No, I'm alone these couple weeks.

Okay.

And tell you have a newborn child.

Is it a girl or boy?

It's a girl this time.

Yeah, she's.

You have two kids?

Yeah, I have two kids.

A son who's three years old and then our baby girl who's now almost three months old.

Do they ever travel with you?

How's life being away from them?

Must be extremely tough.

Yeah, to travel with them is going to be tough because our eldest is going to school already.

Yeah, I mean he's still allowed to come with me on tournament.

He doesn't have to go to school yet but we don't want to take him too much away from school and learning and play with kids his age.

Not always easy being away.

I miss him a lot but at the same time I think it's harder on my wife that I'm away because she has to manage.

Yeah.

Two kids by herself.

So I think I have the better end of the deal.

You have to say that in case she's listening.

Yeah, maybe.

No, no.

I think it's really hard and I really appreciate her doing so much for them.

Yeah, I wish I could spend more time with them but I guess that's life of a tennis player.

I have three kids and I don't know how my wife does it with the three of them.

It's absolutely crazy and I'm not able it.

I'm not able for it, but yeah.

That must be crazy.

Three kids.

Yeah.

So look, we're going to kick this back a few years.

In 2000, when was it?

2012, you won the Junior French Open.

That's an unbelievable achievement obviously for a junior.

That's probably a lifelong dream.

How much pressure did that put on you?

How did that change your career?

Just talk me about what happens after you win the Junior French Open.

Obviously, as a junior, there is nothing bigger than winning a Grand Slam.

That was an amazing experience.

It got me some sponsored deals and some people interested in wanting to sponsor me, which was a good thing.

At the same time, like you said, it adds pressure, but I have to say that I never really added that pressure onto myself.

I think my transition from being a great junior to the pros and yeah, smoothly.

I think the difficult times came pretty much after that.

I never really put that much pressure on myself making that transition.

And were you signed with an agent before there, or did something like that happen after?

Yeah, that happened after.

Yeah, so I signed with.

With Octagon soon after I won the French Open.

Yeah, that was a good thing to happen.

They know that world and how to get some sponsors through which I was able to finance my career for the first two, three years that I was playing on tour.

Are you still with Octagon?

No, I haven't been with Octagon or I haven't gotten a manager since.

I think I had a contract with them for three or four years and yeah, after that ended, yeah, I have been managerless since.

Another job for your wife?

Yeah, yeah.

Or for myself.

Or for yourself.

Is there a day that comes where they say, look, you know, you've been.

You were unlucky with injury, we have to drop you?

How do they handle that?

Or how does that sort of side, the business work?

I'm not sure if I remember correctly, but I think the agent I was with, he had many different players, so we felt that sometimes I was being neglected a little bit by the end of it.

So I think we actually made the decision to call it quits on that relationship.

At the same time, I'm not sure if they wanted to continue with me at that time because, yeah, that was when I started struggling a bit more.

I didn't really push through.

I cracked the top 100, but I didn't push through that year after.

So that's how it came to end.

Yeah, there was sometimes, you know, agents can.

Agencies can sign a lot of players and they're hoping one will break through, you know, and that's all.

In some cases, they just need one and.

And then they get the next batch and do the same again.

So it's tough dealing with those guys.

But you broke through the top hundred and what happened?

Yeah, I broke through to the top 100.

Back in 2015.

So that was three years after my good junior career.

My transition to the pros went pretty smoothly.

I had an unbelievable confidence in myself at that time and I think playing on the Challenger tour and then also playing some ATP tournaments, I didn't play that many at that time, but yeah, winning a bit less matches than what I was used to from playing Futures, that, yeah, that nicked my confidence a little bit.

I think after that the struggles started.

So I think maybe my level wasn't quite there to be inside the top 100, but just because I had such supreme confidence in myself, I was able to still push into that top 100.

But I guess my level didn't really follow.

And then when the confidence was a bit lower, that's when, yeah, I started to struggle.

So I started to have doubts which I never really had before in my career.

What's going on in your head?

I think in 2017, 2018, I started to have like the yips on my, on my serve, my second serve, like just through those doubts.

I started to double fault a lot during that period, like a year and a half.

I think that was also partly because my technique in the serve just wasn't good enough.

Plus then struggling with self confidence, that just added to that issue.

Yeah, it was really a step by step rebuilding process that I had to go to.

I think at one point my ranking dropped until like 350 before I kind of pushed back inside that, that top 200 and playing those qualifying of the Grand Slams again.

So yeah, that was a very tough period, like wanting sometimes even to quit because I wasn't seeing an end to it or a solution to it.

So yeah, it's like an, it sounds like an avalanche.

Your mind just gets going and it goes quicker and the negative doubts come in, it gets worse and worse.

Next thing you know, you can't serve anymore.

Like, I've probably had that at a very low level compared to you at an amateur level where you just can't serve and you're like, what?

I know I'd serve, I can't serve, serve.

And obviously it's a bit technique, but you can't make second serves and you're making first serves, you can't make any second serves and you're like it.

I say when at your job, when you're, you know, money's on the line and I, when it must be, it must be so frustrating.

Like, yeah, your mind just makes it a lot bigger than it actually is.

And yeah, at some point I was getting just so Nervous like my, my arm would get so heavy before I would serve.

Yeah.

Have to serve a second serve.

And it was just an all consuming thing really.

Like I couldn't think clearly during matches anymore.

It was just really tough and I'm really glad that I got through that.

I think my coach or one of my coaches really helped me through it.

Just saying like, yeah, what's the worst that can happen to you if you double fold?

Everyone hits a double fold.

I mean you're not going to be a worse person for it.

You're not going to have a worse life for it.

Like just to try to.

Yeah.

Minimalize the whole grasp it had on my mind.

Yeah, it's good to hear that.

Like, you know, you're human and normally the stories we hear here are like I was top 100 and then I got injured and then obviously the next thing you hear it's how hard it is to get back to the top hundred.

Did you ever manage to get back into the top 100?

No, I haven't been able to crack the top 100 since 2015.

I've gotten maybe to a ranking of 120, 130 again at some point.

I think maybe in 2019.

But I also think that in that couple of years span that I struggled, I think the level really increased a lot.

It got a lot broader.

The level of great players like on the challenger tour now is just so tough.

So yeah, I think that also makes it harder to get inside that top hundred again.

So you visibly saw an increase in the two years.

The top 100, 120 more top 200 players have got a lot stronger, but it just bigger like you're what, you're five foot ten, are you.

You're quite small in the.

Yeah.

Which makes it even, even tougher.

Yeah, even tougher.

Like and next all the average height's gone up and you're like, I haven't got any taller here.

What's going on?

And these kids are coming through.

Yeah.

Nowadays there's so many guys that are tall, have big games.

So yeah, you could really see just the level increasing.

When I got to the top 100, I felt like if you were a seed in challenger events, you kind of would be able to get through the first two rounds quite all right.

But now anyone can beat anyone in these events, I feel like.

And that's what I mean with the level got a lot broader.

Yeah.

Even guys ranked 300 aren't great players nowadays.

Yeah, we only.

I talked in last, last episode with Lawrence.

Luckily we talked about that where, you know, there's so like a top 300, top 400 guy can beat a top 100 guy.

Yeah, today, but he's not going to do it tomorrow though.

And it's talk about the inconsistencies and maybe that's a question for you.

Now I'm going to ask you the differences between, in your eyes, between a futures player, a challenger player and a top 100 player.

Yeah, I would certainly agree with that point of view.

I think as you just said, a guy who's ranked 5, 600 could beat a guy top 200.

And same thing, a guy top 300 could be the guy top 100 on any given day.

The main difference is just the consistency that the top 100 guys bring.

They do it every day.

That's the biggest difference.

Why they are ranked higher than certain players.

Let's say you're, you're a newcomer, you're 500 in the world, you've had some big wins, but you can't back them up.

If you're a coach of this player, how do you help bring them to the next level?

Is it who you train with?

Is it certain drills you do?

Is it, you know, you talk about the mental aspect.

Is it more belief?

Probably.

How do you make more, more balls, especially when you need to make those balls.

I think the guys in general inside the top hundred are a bit older, I would say so I guess they played already a lot more shots just in their lives.

They practiced a lot more, they put in more hours already.

So yeah, I would say to a guy top 500, you gotta bring everything you got every day to the court and practice really hard, many hours, spend many hours on court and yeah, and then that ranking will follow.

If you, if you put in the work and yeah, you've got the game for it, then I guess, yeah, it will come naturally.

Also, just the mentality, the discipline needs to be there nowadays because there's only a couple guys who have, yeah, extreme talent that maybe can work a bit less hard than other guys.

But yeah, I think for a few exceptions, I think all the guys are working extremely hard.

So you got to put so much effort and be so professional to make the most out of it.

And it's still not a guarantee you'll get to the top hundred.

I know not every player works extremely hard.

You know, there's different levels of grit and determination and hard work.

But if we're all putting in the same amount of hard work, you need a good, you need to listen for you need to be a player who listen open ideas.

But also you need a good team around you.

So that must be such an important factor in all of this.

Yeah, definitely.

If you're lucky enough to have a great federation or a great team or maybe some parents who have enough money to be able to get you a good team around you.

Yeah, that's a big advantage.

But I know there's also many guys that, that just don't have the financial capabilities to travel with the coach or even with a physical coach week in, week out.

So yeah, if you have that constant team around you, I think that's, yeah, that's a big advantage to have if you're traveling with a team week in, week out.

Yeah, no, it's definitely a big, big advantage.

And you like give a rough estimate of what this year has cost you.

It's been a strange year for me as I, yeah, I had surgery in January on my, on my elbow right after the Australian Open qualifying.

I didn't play until the US Open qualifying.

So I think this year with those events that I've played, yeah, I was able to get some money and yeah, I didn't spend that much money.

Well, obviously not being able to play.

I was, yeah, just only spending money though.

I think this year I still, I'm probably still in positive numbers but I haven't really checked how much, yeah.

How much I made or lost as it's been a bit of a one off year for me.

And so you won a few weeks ago.

What was the prize check?

That I do know.

So I won two 15ks and for winning that event after taxes it was €1,550 that I got and then obviously having to pay for the hotel.

So I got like after taxes and after paying for the hotel I think I had like €2,000 left.

So yeah, minus the flight.

So all in all I think on those two events I made maybe €1,500.

But that's for winning two events.

So.

Yeah.

So you're not making money.

No, no.

If you're not winning those then you're losing money every week.

Yeah, because you're not win.

Let's be honest, you're not winning every week unless you do like a Karena Busta 10 week futures in a row or something.

But I actually played him on that or right before that run.

Yeah, I played him in that.

That was I think 2013.

Yeah, before the run.

So that means he might have been.

I think he lost that final.

I played him in the semifinals and yeah, I Lost seven, five in the third.

And then two weeks after that run started, like the next tournament that he played, that run started where he won.

Like, I don't know what it was.

Like, was it seven or ten Crazy in a row.

Yeah.

And he finished that year, I think 65 in the world.

He's like you, he likes to play a lot of matches.

Yeah.

And as you mentioned earlier, you like to, when you made that transition, you didn't play as many matches and now you're back, you know, you said you're on a 12 match winning streak.

Yeah.

So, you know, you're back in that run where you probably like, it feels good.

Yeah.

Looking back through all your years playing, you know, early days, is there any players that you played that you're like, they're never going to make it.

And all of a sudden, you know, five, six years later, like how did they get there?

Is there any players that stand out like that?

I do remember, for example, when I started playing the Futures, Radu Albot, he was actually playing those futures in Turkey, like one of the many.

Yeah.

That, that they already had in, in Antalya.

And yeah, I remember he was winning quite a lot of them.

But whenever he would make the switch to playing some challengers, he would kind of mostly, yeah, lose early and really struggle to win a string of matches.

And then yeah, all of a sudden he figured it out and yeah, he was able to win a lot of matches in the challengers after that and push towards the top hundred.

But yeah, it's always tough to say like, is that guy gonna make it or not?

But yeah, about Radu at that time I had some doubts.

Or for example, Taro Daniel is a pretty similar case where he would do very well at the futures in the beginning of his career and would struggle in the challengers.

And then, yeah, also he figured it out and since then they've been like mostly in the top hundred or let's say mostly in the top 120 throughout their career.

So it's like sometimes I think of making it as a tennis player, like would you say level one of making it as a tennis player is I entered the top hundred.

I think that's how you look at it.

Did I really make it as a tennis player?

Yeah, I cracked the top hundred.

I was in the top hundred for three weeks counts.

But yeah, yeah, I mean I did maybe got through that magical barrier of cracking the top hundred, but yeah, did I make it as a tennis player?

When is that.

Is that.

That you don't have to work anymore after your career.

Is that what you define as.

Did I make it as a tennis player?

Well, yeah, then most definitely not.

I didn't make it as, as a tennis player.

That's.

I want to ask you as a player, like, what is making it?

I know it's.

There's probably two answers while you're playing and after you're playing, after you stop.

But we all hear stories of players, I think if I asked them here and I can't remember who, where, you know, the match does that match, where they know if they win, they enter the top hundred and there's pressure.

There's so much pressure.

There's been so many players who've got that match and they just couldn't.

Like they, they never had another chance again.

Yeah, it's.

It must be so tough when you have that opportunity and.

Yeah, that's right.

I think, yeah, some.

Some players feel very tight if they have that opportunity to, to make it to the top 100.

So, yeah, I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that, that I was able to get to the top 100.

But, yeah, I mean, if I look back, it's like maybe Thiem said as well, like he gave so much importance to winning a Grand Slam and now his view on it has changed that.

Yeah, he said, yeah, if I look at it now, it's not that important if I.

Or for my career.

My career wouldn't have failed if I didn't win a Grand Slam or I guess, yeah, maybe in a few years, when I look back, it'll be a nice feat.

But yeah, it's.

It doesn't change your life, I guess.

Well, you're on the war zone now.

You're.

You're in battle now.

You know, that's.

That's where you are right now.

You don't have that helicopter view.

And you, what, what, one kid?

So you have two kids.

You're going to be reading them bedtime stories.

If they ask, daddy, what's.

What's your best ever match?

Tell me your best match you've ever played, which one stands out?

That's a tough one.

I would have to think hard.

Davis Cup.

Yeah, I played quite well, two matches actually, in Davis cup against Brazil.

In Brazil to qualify.

Together with.

Yeah, with the, with the team.

Sander and Joran won the doubles and I won my two singles matches against Monro and D.

Silva, which were two pretty big wins.

So, yeah, those were like big matches where I played very well.

I know you're working with ATP on The ATP mentoring program, which I don't know too much about.

I do know my friend James Kluski is part of it.

He helps connect players with mentors.

And he's a mentor himself.

He works with you.

But maybe tell me, what exactly is the ATP mentoring program?

So the ATP Player Mentoring program is a program where we as players get a mentor assigned to us to work with.

We work with them on a monthly basis.

It's actually to try and provide us with all the tools we need to make that transition from going from tennis player and ending our career to what we want to do after.

Kind of a bit like brainstorming, thinking about what we want to do as players after our career.

And there's very, very interesting people inside that program.

James Kluski is my mentor.

Yeah, he's a great guy, very knowledgeable.

I've already learned a lot from him.

He's trying to help me figure out what I want to do after my career.

So, yeah, I think it's a really great initiative by the ATP.

We're meeting every month virtually, but we also met for the first time right before Wimbledon started.

All the players and the mentors, we're there to have dinner, just to get to know each other face to face.

We'll probably still have one or two times where we're going to meet again as a group, but in between.

Yeah, James, he gives me some action points, some things to do or to think about.

Yeah, and that's how it works, really, just to try and provide us with tools and learn from their experiences.

With James, that's especially interesting as he also played on the circuit and he made the transition from tennis to being a successful entrepreneur.

So, yeah, for me personally, it's been a great experience.

Yeah, because it can be so tough for players where you spend so much time on court practice and flying.

You know, you just tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis, tennis.

And it's like one day, obviously, if you planned it, but it could be injury, it could be you're like, oh, no, I'm retiring now, what I do next?

And that can be such a stressful situation.

So he's there.

Basically, this program opens up your mind to opportunities and seeing helps you find a path for yourself.

That's basically it.

Try to find a path that works.

Yeah.

For me or for the other players that are in the program, hopefully.

I haven't figured it out yet what I want to do after my career.

I think I would like to stay in tennis, though, maybe coach.

But at the same time, I feel like that's not maybe the only thing that I want to be doing.

So, yeah, it's been a great thing to actively think about what's next.

I'm 30 years old now, so I'm going to the back end of my career.

If all goes well, I still have five, six, seven more good years in me playing tennis.

It's good prep to see after tennis.

If James asks you to be as like his apprentice or his helpers, say no because he'll work you hard.

You'll have no time for talent.

His intern, if he asks you.

If James asks you to be his interns, please say no.

Is he tough?

He works.

He works you hard.

You work you hard.

Yeah.

As he should.

As he should.

So my final question came out of something I've been asking players and coaches recently, is who is the boss, the player or the coach?

I would say right now, the stage I'm at in my career, I'm definitely the boss or head of the team, if you would want to call it.

But I think for younger players who are maybe below, let's say I'm just putting a number on it to make it easy.

But like 22, 23 years old, I would say the coaches is more the boss.

And I think throughout your career you gain more experience and that relationship changes quite smoothly, I would say.

Nice and just.

Last question.

Looking back at your career so far, is there any one thing you say to yourself, had I done wanting differently, you think the results could have been totally different?

Is there anything that stands out that could help somebody else?

That's a.

That's a tough question.

I feel like I've always been someone who's given it my all throughout my career.

If something to say to my younger self is, yeah, don't let tennis take up that much importance in your life.

I think there's much more to life than just tennis.

Yeah, it's a lot easier to see that now.

Being a father also.

Yeah.

Meeting a lot of new people also through the ATP player mentoring program.

When I was younger, it was only.

Only tennis.

I think maybe that's also why I had these serve problems or mental confidence problems, let's say, because tennis was my everything.

I think that just put in a way a lot more pressure on me because if tennis wasn't working, then I felt like I had nothing.

So that's a thing that I would advise myself or wish I could have seen differently.

Comes with age.

Comes with a, you know, you learn eventually.

But no, thank you very much.

Thank you for your time during the tournament.

It's never easy getting a player during a tournament.

So thank you very much.

You planned it really well.

You planned it really well, you know, so thank you.

And, yeah, hope you keep this run going.

Yeah, thank you, Fabio.

I'll try my best to keep it going for as long as I can.

Time wise, it's per.

It was perfect because they start here at 9:30.

Okay.

Which is pretty unusual, but, yeah, all good.