Guy: [00:00:00] Hey Guy Powell here and welcome to the next episode of the Backstory on the Shroud of Turin. Uh, if you haven't already done so, please go to guy powell.com and sign up for more of these episodes. Uh, I am the author of the, uh, book, the Only Witness, and it is a Christian historical fiction tracing a possible history of the Shroud Turin over the last two millennium.

I. Today I'm speaking with, uh, Sean Fitzgerald, and, uh, he is a researcher and speaker on the shroud, and he's done, uh, some interesting stuff and definitely looking forward to hearing more, uh, about, uh, his background. So, but let me tell you a little bit about him. So he's been interested in the shroud after seeing a presentation, uh, back in, uh, 1983.

He has a Master's degree in religious studies and a master's degree in Theology, and both of those are from St. Joseph's Seminary in Yonkers, New York. Sean works as a full-time director of ministry [00:01:00] consulting at the Augustine Institute and lives in Highland, New York with his five children and wife of 34 years.

Uh, Sean, welcome. So good to have you.

Sean: So great to meet you guys. So, and thank you so much for the invite. Really, really pleased to be here with you.

Guy: Oh, fantastic. I mean, I, I'd love talking about the shrouds, so any opportunity I get, uh, I'm glad we're able to do that here. Yeah, exactly. So tell me a little bit about your background.

How did you get in, uh, involved in the shroud and, uh, and, and, and, and, and go from there?

Sean: Sure. Well, like I, you know, had told you I saw a presentation in high school, you know, many years ago. Uh, unfortunately I can't remember the name of the gentleman who gave the presentation, but you know, I. Typical 16-year-old, you had some details you didn't pay attention to, but, um, that was the first time that I really found, uh, you know, the shroud to be a real, you know, just background of the gospels, you know, a real reflection of the gospels [00:02:00] and I was really interested in it.

And the thing is, guys, so I've been in, I've been involved in ministry since I was a teenager. Um, so youth ministry, uh, parish ministry, uh, I teach bible study, I do prison ministry. Um, I've worked a lot with the youth over the years and so the reason why I continue to have an interest in the shroud is, uh, it was just a great teaching tool, uh, in ministry to be able to show.

Not, Hey, this is definitely church doctrine, that this is the true shroud of Christ, but to be able to use it to explain the passion, the death, the resurrection, um, and why we are so, uh, amazed at Jesus and just so focused on him. So, uh, it was just a great teaching tool. And then, um, as I had mentioned, I was working a lot with teenagers.

Uh, over the last 20 years [00:03:00] and probably about eight years ago, um, I actually was doing a teenage retreat, you know, with about 30 teenagers, and I had somebody do a shroud presentation, which I thought was great. Um, and then I wanted that same person to come back to next year. And at last minute he wasn't able to come.

And I'm like, oh, great, what am I gonna do? And then I stopped and I said, you know what? I think I could do this. So I put together my own slide deck, my own presentation, did my own research on everything that I knew, and it wound up being just, again, because what I do with the Shroud is not just look at, you know, the scientific background and the history, but what does it mean to us and our faith?

How is it a reflection of the gospels? How can it teach us about our faith? And how can it make us fall more in love with Jesus and what he did for us, regardless of whether it's authentic or not. And it was, that was where the Holy Spirit basically said, Hey, I want you to go [00:04:00] deeper. So I started doing more research and then got the post grad certificate, uh, you know, from Athena in Rome.

And I, since then, I've been doing public presentations on the shroud. Um, usually during Lent, but you know, I've done it all year round, um, at other parishes. Um, and so really for about seven years now, I've been pretty busy every year. You know, usually on the weekends doing shroud presentations to large groups of people and taking it from the aspect of, Hey, I'm not here to convince you that this is actually.

Authentic, I believe it is, but I'm not here to convince you of that. You know, you can make your own determination. What I am here though, to tell you about is Jesus and to talk to you about his passion, death and resurrection, and how this shroud tells the story of all of that. And by the end, um, if. People didn't really understand what crucifixion was.

[00:05:00] They sure know it. By the end of the presentation, after kind of going through the shroud, and thanks to the shroud, we know more about, say, crucifixion than we ever knew, right? Because we started seeing these images on the, uh, on the shroud and the scourge wounds and the nail marks and everything else.

And it made people look deep red, like what actually happened. You know, we get so much of our theology and our pictures of, in our mental pictures, say of the shroud or of, uh, the crucifixion from the last 2000 years from artwork. And, you know, a lot of that artwork is sanitized and Right. They, so because it's gonna be in.

Churches, and you know, that type of thing. It has to be family friendly. But because of the shroud, people started looking deeper into exactly what was scouring, like, what was crucifixion like, what did the word crucifixion mean? I. To a Jewish person in the first century, and thanks to the Shroud, it's really made that come [00:06:00] to life.

And people you know, especially when come to Good Friday, now they really have a greater appreciation for what Jesus went through. I. 'cause it was rough and it was hard and it was mental torture. It was emotional torture, it was physical torture. It was all of the above. And that's really what the shroud teaches us.

Um, and so usually people come away from the presentation. Yes. A lot of times they're convinced, oh, this is real. But more so, um, what I want to express is I want you to have a closer relationship with Jesus after. You know, looking at this and all of the, just, all of the stories that it contained mm-hmm.

Now are approved by science and history and everything else. So.

Guy: Yeah, that's a, uh, that's a great story. And, uh, and that's a great way to use the shroud and to, uh, you know, evangelize and help strengthen the faith of those, uh, of, of all, of us. And it's certainly done that for me. And I've also been able to [00:07:00] evangelize in, in ways that I never would've thought of.

So it, uh, has definitely the spirit, the Holy Spirit touched me, and, and now I'm running with it, which is kind of fun. Yeah. So,

Sean: yeah. Yeah, that's why. And then the other thing too. I'm sorry. I was gonna say that, that that's why I'm always, I always jokingly say I'm waiting for a heckler to come to one of my presentations and stand up and say, I still don't believe that it's real.

Just so I can say. Fine. Even if it's not real. It's, it's, it's doing what it's supposed to do. It's evangelizing people, it's telling the story. Um, you know, it's not supposed to be the basic, you know, this, this relic is not supposed to be the basis of our faith. Um, if anything is just a wonderful gift to help guide.

Mm,

Guy: yeah. Yeah. So, and, uh, and so true and yet. You know, the other thing I think it does is when you think about the resurrection, the resurrection is core to the Christian faith. Mm-hmm. And here we have an, uh, you know, I call it the only witness we have [00:08:00] the witness of that singular moment mm-hmm. Of when, uh, Jesus was resurrected and um.

And you know, and that's where then you can also, just like you were talking about mm-hmm. You can start talking about, well what does the resurrection mean mean to me? And, you know, what could it mean to you?

Sean: Absolutely. And you know what's so great about that too is you know, you're talking about the only witness to the resurrection.

Um, and I've used that term, you know, a couple of times, you know, when I'm doing the presentation, what it does. Is it allows you to put yourself into the scene. So, um, in the Catholic faith, we do what's called Lexio Davina, where we will read the gospel and allow the Holy Spirit now, because I mean, we are, we're, I.

You know, we have senses we can see, we can hear, we can touch, we can taste, and we allow the Holy Spirit to kind of pull us into the scene as to like, what's happening, what does Jesus sound like? What is he saying? What does he look like? What is the people's [00:09:00] reactions? And then what happens then is this is where the inspiration starts to take place.

Well, people you know, for centuries have been trying to imagine. You know, what was it like? What would've resurrection have looked like? And you know, there was no right or wrong answer, and there's still no right or wrong answer. But with the shroud, if a burst of light, which is what physicists now are saying, is the only way that that image could have been caused, and like not just a burst of light, but.

Basically a super atomic explosion of light. Um, it helps people kind of visualize even more, uh, of the resurrection and, and puts them into the tomb at watching this happen, just because of what we see on the shroud. I.

Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, and that's, uh, I think why, uh, you know, the shroud is, uh, the most studied relic in the world.

And talk a little bit about that.

Sean: Well, yeah. Um, when you're talking about the fact that it's the most [00:10:00] studied shroud in the world or relic in the world, it's because of who we think it might have touched, right? If this was any other historical figure, and I've been collecting baseball memorabilia for years, you know, I've got.

Bats and balls and you know, I've had, you know, jerseys and stuff like that. It's all because of, well, you know, this might have been worn a game used piece of equipment, right. It just, but no matter what, at best it's, you know, a famous sports star celebrity, this cloth. If it's real actually wrapped God, you know, actually wrapped, you know Jesus.

And that changes everything. I mean, if it wrapped George Washington, if it wrapped, you know, Elvis, if it wrapped uh, Abraham Lincoln, it would be interesting. But this changes everything because of who it is. And it can be a scary proposition for people, as you know, which is why people have been [00:11:00] trying to debunk it.

For years, because if it really is him, and this is an actual artifact, an actual relic, well now it's saying, gee, I guess everything that's in the scriptures is true. And if that's true, and if he really is who he says he is, if he really is God, now I've gotta change, you know? Mm-hmm. So it's. Tested by the faithful on the one hand, just to kind of, again, help with their faith and use it as an evangeli evangelization tool, and I think just as many other people are studying it to hopefully debunk it, to say, no, this isn't real.

He's not real. He never existed. Because if they can do that now, they don't have to change. So it all comes back to who we think this touched and that that changes everything. That's why it's so studied, and that's why it's so controversial. But that's also why it's so exciting, right?

Guy: Yeah. And absolutely, and I, and actually it's funny, you know, there are a lot of shroud [00:12:00] atheists that have done a lot of studying or, or talking about it and telling others about it and using it for evangelism.

And then you have, you do have the detractors, which, you know, they say, no, it can't be true and whatever. Mm-hmm. And, uh, but actually for me, the. They actually help, I think, to, uh, bring the shroud and the awareness of the shroud forward because, uh, even though they're, they're looking for the negatives or the things that might be wrong with the, with, you know, thinking of it as being authentic, um, that helps us as shroud atheists to sharpen our message and make our message that much stronger.

But it also, um, you know, it leads to a, uh, discussion on something that. Which is just your point is that if this is true, then you know it has to have an effect on you and, and how you in interpret, you know, God in our daily lives.

Sean: Absolutely. And I love what you said, you know, it's, it's the detractors that have actually made [00:13:00] shroud studies expand.

Um, you know, I, I saw a study once that every time some type of negative. Article or something came out about the shroud that, uh, the pilgrimages increased, like not decreased. And you think about, you know, the bogus 1988, you know, carbon 14 dating, which, yes, I think everybody who's listening to this knows at this point, that has just been so debunked over and over and over again.

The fact that the secular media still needs to like. Mention that in every single article about the trout. It's just, it, it's so, nobody pays attention to that anymore, but it's because of that and because of like people trying to detract that I. Glory be to God. People started studying even more. It's like, no, this has to be real.

So they started diving in deeper and they started, you know, finding things like how it matches up exactly [00:14:00] with artwork that dates back to, you know, the fourth century. Um, it made us look closer at, you know, some of the science and the blood and everything else. Uh, it just made us look even closer at it because the, the track kind of inspired.

The authenticators to come up with even more evidence, and they did. They just kept finding more and more, and now it's at the point where, you know, really for somebody to say it's a forgery or if it's a fake and this and that, they really have not been paying attention to any of the research. Really. The question now is, you know, is.

Did it really wrap him? Um, was it really the only witness to the resurrection, like you said? Or is it just this amazing coincidence that somebody else, you know, was scoured and crucified exactly the same way as Jesus and you know, has pollen on it from Jerusalem and [00:15:00] everywhere else, and happens to match up perfectly with the SDA of Oviedo?

The crown of thorns, you know, we can trace the pollen back to the actual plant. I mean, it's either the greatest coincidence of all time, or it's really him. I think most people who have been paying attention now realize that, look, it's not a forgery, it's not a painting. Um, it's just that, that's why I always love too, 'cause you know, you'll have a skeptic that come up from time to time.

Oh, I figured out how to recreate the shroud. You know, like I, I, I took this model, I did this, and they don't seem to understand. It's like, okay, so maybe you kind of, sort of figured out a way of getting an image on a linen cloth. Well, now you also have to remember, you've gotta put the bloodstains on there first.

Then make sure that the image matches. 'cause we know that the blood stains came first. Then you gotta make sure that you got pollen on there. You know, from then you gotta, I mean, it's like, you can't just say, well I've recreated it, I [00:16:00] know how to do it. It's gotta match all of these things. Right. Um, and just be, oh, I figured out like one little piece of the shroud when there's so many elements involved.

That point to its authenticity or again, at least point to the gospels.

Guy: Yeah. That is, uh, so true. And, uh, there are so many little details. And, um, and you know, it's interesting, David Rolfe, uh, he's, you may know him, he mm-hmm. He did the movie, the Silent Witness, and then he also, uh, uh, did a movie. It's called, who Can He Be?

And then at the end of that, he offered a $1 million reward to anybody that could, um. That could reproduce the image. 'cause the image just itself, even if you leave everything else aside. You know, kind of like you said, you have to have the blood on first and then the image, but it also has the 3D qualities, and it has kind of the mm-hmm.

The, the, the, the pseudo or quasi photo negative kind of qualities to it. It's, uh, once you figure [00:17:00] that out, uh, you know, then that million dollar prize as yours, otherwise, uh, you know, then let's talk about, you know, what this really means for the rest of us.

Sean: Yeah. And nobody's claimed the prize yet.

Guy: Yeah.

Well, that's right. And uh, and there's not even any, any takers. There's not even anybody that said, I got close. You know,

Sean: not to mention the fact that even if you do figure out somehow how to get any type of an image on a cloth, you've gotta make sure that under a microscope, it's only appearing on the very top microscopic fibers of it, you know?

Yep, yep. So how are you gonna reproduce that plus. You know, the pollen and the blood and everything. I mean, it's just, there's just so much on there that, uh, you might be able to like. Come up with your own type of forgery, but it's still not gonna be Yeah.

Guy: What

Sean: we have there.

Guy: Yeah. Yeah. Very difficult. Well, let's step back in time a little bit.

Yeah. Um, and let's go back to, uh, before the shroud was, uh, created and the image was created. Let's talk about [00:18:00] crucifixion. Yeah. Uh, and, uh, how that, and what that meant to Jews, uh, in Jesus' time.

Sean: Well, to me it's really one of the main points of the story. And then of course, if you wanna like start talking about the spread of Christianity, it points back to that as well, because first century Judaism, I mean just the word crucifixion was meant to terrify you.

Um, it was the last thing that anybody wanted to think about. Um, it was. The way that nobody wanted to die. It was humiliating. Um, I, you know, explained to people, you know, we see Jesus, I mean, obviously the man in the cloth is naked. Well, that's how they crucified you too. I mean, the Romans, were not running around with loin cloths.

Um, you know, we have that on a crucifix in a parish. Again, just. You know, for modesty, but it was humiliating, it was painful, it was excruciating, [00:19:00] um, everything about it. And, you know, people who used to come into Jerusalem would see people crucified on the side of the road. Um, and the thing that really makes people wi is that, you know, Jesus died rather quickly.

Most of the time, these crucifixion victims were meant to be up there for like days. Um, and in some cases. Hoping that like animals would come at some point and start eating them off the cross. I mean, this was just like the most hideous way to die. And so back in the first century, and even during Jesus's ministry, when he says things like, you know, pick up your cross and follow me.

That's putting together a real mental image for anybody who's listening. And in a way it's almost offensive. In a way, right? I mean, just mm-hmm.

Guy: Take

Sean: cross. Like I'm, I'm supposed to be willing to be crucified for you. Everybody knew what that meant. And then thanks to the shroud, we see how hideous and awful it was so awful [00:20:00] that even his apostles knew.

Look, if anybody knows that I'm with him, that's gonna happen to me. Mm-hmm. So they all get out there. But then why a week later? Couple of years later, whatever. Now they're all willing to go through that for him. And you know, it didn't get any easier. I mean, crucifixion was just as horrible as it was when Peter got crucified or when you know, Andrew got crucified.

These are the same guys that didn't want to have anything to do with pain or crucifixion on Good Friday, but now they're all willing to go through that. Like what did they see? Uh, what did they experience? Well, we know, I mean, they saw him who was crucified. They saw him walking around again a week later.

Um, and then at Pentecost they got the gift of the Holy Spirit. So now they were able to go through this. It just points again to, you can't explain the spread of Christianity so quickly. [00:21:00] Uh, you know, without this resurrection having happened, and like St. Paul says, uh, in Corinthians, he appeared to like hundreds of people, you know, and they'll, and he's ready to name names.

He does name names, you know, CAFA and James. He appeared to me. He's ready to name names, and some of those names that he's mentioning, they might be faced with crucifixion themselves. Mm-hmm. They don't recant their story, but again, what happened in the course of three days or of course of a week, that would make these.

Men or you know, who ran away on Good Friday, be willing to go through that experience. Well, obviously they saw the, they experienced the resurrected Christ. Mm-hmm. And nobody is going to go through that for a lie or for something that they made up. Or if there was any doubt whatsoever, maybe I dreamt [00:22:00] it, maybe I hallucinated it.

Um. None of them recanted. Um, and it's just an amazing thing. So yeah, just, just the, the crucifixion, um, you know, experience and how hideous we know that it is now through archeology, through, uh, just all of these things that we see on the shroud. Um, nobody wanted to even think about that, uh, back then. And, you know, the fact that not only did Jesus go through that, but his followers were willing to go through that.

I. After the resurrection just speaks not only to his divinity and this historical event, this resurrection that happened, but um, you know, and it, it, it's meant to make you, you wince. You know, when you think about what he went through. 'cause it was just excruciatingly painful. That's actually where we get the word excruciating.

It means from the cross. Um, and then, you know, is the famous book, a Doctor at Calvary where, uh, you know, Barba [00:23:00] writes, you know, he's giving his, his, uh, I guess his clinical, uh, synopsis of what he sees on the shroud, and he calls it a symphony of pain, of mental, emotional, spiritual, physical. Internal, external, I mean, just every kind of pain you can experience.

Um, nobody wanted to go through that, and yet people were willing to go through that for Jesus after they saw him resurrected. So, which

Guy: is good. Yeah. And they were all, they were all martyred and so they all went through, uh. Absolutely a painful death, uh, of themselves and, uh, absolute and Peter being crucified upside down.

That's add another dimension to it.

Sean: Add another dimension. To me, not only was he willing to be crucified, but he said, I'm not even willing. I'm not able to be crucified. I'm not worthy to be crucified the same way that he was so crucified me upside down.

Guy: Yeah.

Sean: And I mean, this is the same guy that on Friday night is petrified of like.

A little servant girl who's saying, uh, weren't you with him? You know, so it [00:24:00] it, the, he obviously experienced something and he couldn't have possibly been making it up because, you know, I. Nobody goes through something like that for a story or to get rich or for a lie, so,

Guy: well, I can imagine, um, you know, here he is, uh, the two days before on the Friday, he denies, uh, you know, Jesus.

And then here he and John run to the tomb and, and then all of a sudden they go, wait a minute now. What happened here. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and then they see him, you know, in the upper room and they see him, uh, you know, ti many times thereafter. And, um, you know, and that to, uh, you know, the power of that, uh, of those actions mm-hmm.

Uh, on those, uh, you know, 11 apostles at the time. And, uh, and then the 12th one, and then certainly Paul thereafter, you know, what a, uh. What, what a, what a message. And then to, and [00:25:00] then that message is so strong, you know, that Paul is also able to be converted, you know, in a different way, of course. But here he is.

He's one of the detractors Yeah. Of Jesus. He is crucifying and, well, not crucifying, but he's, you know, he's judging those Christians and trying to white him out, wipe him out, and, and then all of a sudden, you know, Jesus appears to, uh, to Paul and then Paul is converted, or Saul is converted and, you know, turns into Paul.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sean: Yeah. It's just an amazing story. And you know, you mentioned running to the tomb. I mean, the shroud is mentioned. They, they look in the tomb, right? In scripture, they see the shroud and even the head covering, right? Yeah. So you have this dium. As well. And I mean, it's just that they're characters in scripture.

Uh, so just the way all of these pieces fit together, it's so amazing and it really makes you stop and think sometimes. I mean, even though obviously you we're faithful Christians and we believe in the gospel, it's still something to [00:26:00] sometimes sit back and say, wait a minute. Like this is all true. Like everything that they wrote, these are not like legends.

These are not fairytales. This isn't just like some nice story. It's like, oh my goodness. Everything that they said in scripture is real. It keeps coming to life. And the more we try to debunk it, the more it, the deeper, you know, we go, you know, the, the, the more it shows itself to be true. So it's an exciting.

Thing. And that's, that's why again, I, I like the shroud as a teaching tool and I tell people, Hey, it could burn up tomorrow. Or Hey, who knows? Maybe there's a scientific experiment that somebody invents tomorrow that can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that it's not real. Again, it, it's already done its job.

It's already brought the gospels to life and it's allowed us to step into the scene and see Exactly, yeah. What was going on, what happened? And so it changes everything. Um, and it's [00:27:00] just a wonderful gift. Mm. You know, if it is one way or another, it's a wonderful gift. If it is authentic, then boy, what a wonderful gift that you know, that the Holy Spirit's given us to help us with our faith.

Guy: Yeah, absolutely. And, um, you know, and I, I, I like what, uh, Pope John Paul, uh, called it a reflection of the gospels. Yeah. And that, uh, that is so true. When you look at the, uh, you know, the end of the four gospel. Gospels. Mm-hmm. Uh, that story that's in there of the passion and every piece of that is, that's part of the passion, the Garden of Gethsemane and, you know, and other pieces of it really fit in.

Uh, talk a little bit about that.

Sean: Well, for me, and again, this is just part of how the shroud just brings things to life. Um, so I look at the Gardner Gethsemane. For me, that is always just one of the most, um, touching and important scenes in the gospels. Because it really shows the humanity of Jesus, and it shows that we have a God who understands what it [00:28:00] means to be human and in the garden.

He's not experiencing physical pain, yet he's experiencing this intense mental pain. So anybody you know. When I do shroud presentations, um, not everybody in the audience has experienced physical pain, but for sure they've all experienced some type of mental or emotional pain, whether it's anxiety, whether it's depression, whether it's fear.

Whether it's a phobia. I mean, there's just, everybody has experienced that and they can really connect then with Jesus in that scene in the garden. And one of the things I like to talk about, you know, we read the Gospel of Luke where it says that he sweat blood. Well, the thing about that is Luke is a physician, and when he's describing that, that's just not poetic talk.

That's an actual. Physiological reality, it's called hems. It's [00:29:00] proven that people who are experiencing extreme terror or fear, and it's gotta be intense, that the capillaries will actually burst, you know, up in the head, and blood will get into the bloodstream and you will actually be sweating blood. So right off the bat, that touches upon the intense mental suffering.

Um, we have a God who just understands us. He knows what it's like. He knows what we're going through. And so anytime I'm feeling anxiety or fear or depression or just hurt or disappointment or, you know, somebody has just like betrayed me or something like that, I mean, he's experiencing all of that. But what I hadn't known about HIMSS until I started studying it more.

Thanks to the shroud, is that what happens when somebody's suffering from that? Well, now their entire body, all of the skin becomes extremely sensitive. Like [00:30:00] so almost touching. Will be like a burn. You know, people who have had like that neuralgia condition where like, gee, if I touch my face, like it actually hurt.

Well, he's experiencing that now throughout his whole body, which tells us two things. Number one, that when Judas comes and kisses him on the cheek, not only is it hurting him mentally. And spiritually and emotionally, it's hurting him physically. And secondly, now he's about to enter into his passion and he's about to be scourge and crucified and almost by like his divine providence, he's also gonna make sure that it hurts even more.

I mean, it would be a terrible crucifixion and torture no matter what, but if Hemato is true. And the gospels are true, and everything we see about the shroud just keeps pointing us back to the gospels and making them come to life. He actually, you know, as he's getting slapped in the face and punched and then, you know, scoured his skin, his body's in a condition where the pain has now been ratcheted up a level [00:31:00] where it's gonna be even more painful, if that's possible.

So. You know, the Garden of Gethsemane to me is just like setting the scene for that passion. And we know that for the rest of his passion, you know, just obviously the mental anguish and the pain and the physical, but in the garden, it's really focusing on that mental anguish. And, uh, I mean that's just something that, you know, artists have tried to depict and it's just an amazing scene.

Um. It gets me every time. Like when I, yeah. When I walk the passion of the Christ, that's, I mean, it's the very first scene. That's what like gets me

Guy: before. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. That is the, that is the, uh, the first step in every piece of the pain that he went through and, um, yeah, it's incredible. Um. So, uh, um, and actually when I do my presentation on the shroud, I do the kind of, uh, the reflection of the gospels because, uh, the gospel [00:32:00] story right there of the passion mm-hmm.

You can see it right in the, in the shroud. Yeah. Just about everything that happens here is right there. Uh, so it makes a lot of sense. So, uh, it makes

Sean: things come to life too. Guy, I'm sorry. I was just gonna say that, you know, part of when I'm doing the presentation, you know, when you look at scripture. Um, now after 2000 years, like we've been saying, you know, our depictions of the crucifixion of discouraging, we get that from paintings, from stain glass windows.

Um, you know, thanks to Mel Gibson and his movie, we have a little more vivid imagery. I. But if you look at the scripture, it just says he was scoured and then he was crucified. Mm. Well, back then, that's all you had to say. People knew what that meant. Mm-hmm. But 2000 years later, we don't really know what it means.

So again, just that simple word of. You know, description, you know, they took him out and they scoured him. Well, all of a sudden, we know what that looks like. You know, the first century, [00:33:00] second century, you know, people, they didn't need that depiction. They didn't need a graphic, uh, description. They knew what that meant.

We kind of need, you know, the, the graphic description so that we really understand what was going on.

Guy: Yeah. And that's a very good point. And um, you know, 'cause we, we, I mean, I can't even imagine, uh, you know, what it was like to just even be alive then, you know, and live and, and mm-hmm. You know, and subsist on, you know, whatever, you know, meager kind of food and irregular whatever, and the bad water and everything.

Sean: Yeah.

Guy: And, uh, and then to go through something like that, which, you know, we've heard stories about, you know, growing up he was crucified and. Okay. He was on the, you know, you see pictures of him on the cross. Mm-hmm. But to actually, you know, really understand what that meant. And the Romans did it on purpose to where they would want everybody to see crucifixion so that you would know that they were in control and you were not gonna go after and, you know, and, [00:34:00] and go after us and, and do something against us.

Sean: Oh yeah. I mean, they were, they were geniuses at torture. You know, I mean, one of the things that we see on the shroud that again, made people. Investigate it. And I, and this is just another, you know, proof that it's not a, that it's not a forgery because obviously on the shroud you can see there's an exit wound on the wrist.

Now if I'm a forger back in like the 12th century, I'm not gonna make the wound in the wrist. I'm gonna put it in the palm. 'cause that's where everybody thought that it was. Um, so it's kind of like part of that criterium of embarrassment. I mean, I'm, I'm not gonna like do something that's gonna make people say, wait a minute.

This can't be real. 'cause we know that he wasn't crucified in the wrist, it was in the palm, but we see an exit wound through the wrist. Well now thanks to Barry Schwartz, he was telling me that, you know, now what most people believe is that, you know, if you put your thumb in your pinky together, that the nail would've gone in, kind of like in this crease, the enter [00:35:00] entry wound, and then exited here.

Why is that important? Well, it's important for two things. One is that it would keep 160 pound man on the cross. And then the second thing is going back to your comment on the Romans, it hurt more. 'cause what was happening is it's going right through that ulnar nerve. So people who know, uh, what it's like to have carpal tunnel syndrome, that's the nerve that nail is going through.

So their torture was not only like effective as far as. Killing people, but they made sure that it was both humiliating and extremely painful. So that goes back to, you know, that book, uh, you know, Dr. Calvary, a Symphony of Pain, it just, mm-hmm. They thought of everything you might say. Yeah.

Guy: Yeah. I have one more pain for you, which nobody talks about, and that is, um, have you ever gone skiing and, uh, I'm not a skier.

Sean: No. So you'll have to tell me.

Guy: Well, in any, any case, uh, [00:36:00] one of the things that you do to get ready to go skiing is you, uh, you would kind of like, you know, put your back against the wall and you'd have your knees bent. Mm-hmm. And, uh, what that would do is it would get your, uh, your thigh muscles, uh, uh, stronger, but the longer you held that, the more your legs burned.

Mm-hmm. And those muscles really burned. Well, Jesus, with his, uh, with his feet being, um, nailed to the cross, most likely with one nail mm-hmm. Forced his legs and his knees to be out from the cross. And, um, and then for him to breathe, he had to push up. Using exactly those same muscles. Mm-hmm. And after, you know, even five minutes of doing that, you now have one more pain.

And that's the burning in those muscles there, just so that you can breathe. So you kind of have to then trade off, I need to breathe, I gotta burn my, my legs to breathe and pull myself up so I can breathe in and then let it go again. And, uh, so they figured [00:37:00] out even one more way to, uh, in, you know, in in, in inflict pain.

Sean: Yeah. That, that's why they break the legs of the, of the two thieves on either side because they know, hey, if we break their legs, they can't push up anymore.

Guy: Yeah,

Sean: yeah. And die. Yeah. But you know, you, you said a couple things there that just struck me. One, you know, like this, that's a pain that not a lot of people talk about.

We're still on uncovering the pain that he went through. You know, we've gone through 2000 years without. Even really understanding the suffering. It doesn't matter. He still went through it, he still saved us by it. Um, I think that, uh, you know, hopefully we all get a chance to be face to face with him and we're probably gonna find out even more things that we had no idea that he went through.

Um, you know, there was a Saint, Saint Bernard who had a vision of Jesus, um, and actually asked him, you know, what was the most part of. Of the, uh, crucifixion and apparently Jesus told him the shoulder. [00:38:00] You know, uh, who would've known that. But now you look at the shroud and you can see the imprint of the cross across the shoulder.

You can see that it was kind of dislocated. Um, and I mean, who knew that? But it still happened. Uh, you know, that he went through that. And then the other thing that you mentioned too, that is amazing that we kind of look past is for him to even breathe, to take a breath. Was excruciatingly painful. So the fact that he says anything from the cross is a miracle.

Um, you know, uh, lot as we get into Lent, a lot of people will, you know, be doing homilies and sermons on the seven last words of Jesus. The fact that we have any words mm-hmm. From those, and not just words, but words like that, people to hear and understand. Um, it's just amazing because it's literally killing him.

To breathe. It's killing him to speak. And yet he says things like, forgive them for they know not what they do. And I thirst and behold [00:39:00] your mother. And I mean, just, he's saying these things and they gotta mean something because he's, you know, he's dying as he's saying it. Um, but again. The shroud kind of brings that out as well, right?

Mm. It just shows how, how painful this was and it just, you know, brings to life so many other parts of not just the passion story, but you know, just all of the gospels. I.

Guy: Yeah. Yeah. Well, so all of that, uh, led to the, uh, the start of the early church and then, uh, so, and then, you know, you've got, you know, different perspectives on that.

So what is the kind of the Catholic perspective on, on that in the early church?

Sean: Well, the Catholic perspective, um, like we had mentioned before, um, if you look at the whole story and you look at the crucifixion. Um, and you realize how awful and scary it was and the fact that afterwards, his followers are willing to [00:40:00] go through that to start.

Spreading this news and start spreading this gospel. And the early martyrs. I mean, very few people even know that like for the first 30 or so popes, every one of them was martyred. Um, back then, you know, to be a Christian, I. I mean, a lot of times it was a death sentence because they weren't gonna just kill you.

They were going to torture you. They were gonna feed you to lions, they were gonna boil you in oil. Um, they were gonna do all of these awful things, and yet every, all of these people said, well, I'm going to do it for him, because of the experience that they had with him either. Personally, or they knew somebody who knew him personally or they knew somebody who knew somebody who knew him personally.

So if you look at like the first like century, couple centuries of Christians and the martyrdom all being traced back to the fact that. This man [00:41:00] died and we know that from extra biblical, you know, information. I mean, we know that from Josephus, he's not a Christian, but he explicitly writes that this man existed and this man was crucified and was died and.

The idea that all of these people now are devoting their life to him. Because as all of them were talking, not only did he die, but he came back to life and he walked around again and he ate with us and he talked with us. And he didn't come back as like a bloody zombie or he came back fully. You know, I mean, 'cause that's not gonna inspire anybody.

He came back fully restored. He came back in a glorious fashion. So. The Catholic perspective, again, of just the start of the church is based upon history. It's an historical fact. This isn't a legend, this isn't this cool, you know, fantasy that somebody came up with, you know, about 500 years ago. Um, what we believe in is based upon eye witness [00:42:00] accounts.

Events and this eyewitness continues to convert people today. Um, the other thing though, and just a little bit of the Catholic perspective. Is, you know, um, two of the central teachings of Catholicism is the Eucharist, so that we're able to actually, you know, consume the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ through the Eucharist that he instituted.

Well, it goes back again. Well, why are we, I. Why is a shroud so important? Because it might have his blood on there. Well, imagine being able to actually receive him physically that's better than the shroud. And that's what I tell people, you know, it's just like, Hey, you can go walk in his footsteps in Israel and that would be a great experience.

But you know, in a Catholic church we have the Eucharist and you'll be closer to him there. Then you'll ever be like, you could wrap yourself up with the shroud. And then another perspective that I like to bring into it again, is the blessed mother, uh, Mary, because of the fact [00:43:00] that, well, if it's his, if it's his blood and his DNA on the shroud, well then it's her blood and her DNA on the shroud as well.

And on top of that, you know. There's a lot of misunderstandings about why Catholics have a devotion to Mary. It's not that she has any superpowers or that she's more important than Jesus. It's just because of the fact that he was in her for nine months connected by a umbilical cord. I. God, fully man and fully human, fully divine, connected to her with an umbilical cord.

That's why her whole body is just considered sacred because of who she had inside of him. And so the fact that this piece of cloth might have touched him, and we think that the cloth is so special, well, the cloth is, you know, like I said, it could burn up tomorrow. And Mary we're like, gee, her body was connected to him and that's why we, you know, honor her and venerate her as being so special.

So even these types of [00:44:00] things, you know, that you, like you said, the Pope said, you know, this is a reflection of the gospels as a reflection of our faith. And it'll always, everything is driving us back again to asking, you know, why. Is this so important? Why is this piece of cloth so important? It's because of who we think it might have actually touched physically, and I want to touch him.

You know? Uh, so that's why it just continues to be studied and that's why people like you and me just spend so much time looking at it and praying about it and, uh, you know, using it as a teaching tool.

Guy: And an evangelization tool for certain. Absolutely. And it, uh, it's, it's definitely one thing that just, uh, is so amazing that, uh, it's easy to use as an evangel, as an evangelization tool.

Sean: Yeah. And don't you love to, like I said, hey, a skeptic could come up in one of our, you know, one of our, uh, presentations and say, I, I have a hundred percent proof that it's fake. It's like, all right, that's cool. Doesn't [00:45:00] change anything that we're talking about here. Um, so it's almost like, it, it, it can't be.

It can't be like, overcome, you know, it can't be denied. It's a reflection of the gospels, whether it's real or not. But of course, every time we do another study, it points to authenticity. It's like now with all the, uh, scientific, uh, methods we have now, um. It, everything just keeps logically pointing to it, historically pointing to it.

Um, and you know, people when I, uh, when I show them the face and, you know, just some of the characteristics of the face and how it matches up exactly with some old, you know, fourth century paintings. Of Jesus where it's almost like they're trying to mat get it exactly right. You know, the, the side of the nose is a little bit inflamed and he's got these two pieces of hair and everything matches, you know, so no matter what you do, it just keeps pointing back to the fact that [00:46:00] this, this might actually be the holy grail.

You know, that that's that. You know, has his blood on it. So it really exciting.

Guy: Yeah, it really, really is. I could talk to you, uh, uh, forever, uh, Sean. I'm, uh, uh, but at, at some point I've gotta, uh, close. Yeah. And, uh, this has been really fascinating and it's. So great to talk to somebody as well that's been out there, you know, talking about the shroud and teaching with the shroud and evangelizing with the shroud and yeah, and, uh, I learn something every time too, uh, on how to, you know, how to message one thing versus another.

So I really appreciate it and definitely looking forward. I'll see you in August. On the August. Yeah, exactly. That's what I was gonna say. Looking forward to seeing you in, uh, at the end of July in St. Louis at our, uh, shroud conference. And, uh, for those of you that are interested, uh, please sign up. There's, uh, that go to Shroud 2025 conference.com.

And [00:47:00] you'll be able to sign up there either for the academic session or then there's gonna be some public sessions as well that'll be, uh, coming available soon. So, uh,

Sean: it'll be pretty fascinating. It's a magnificent facility. Uh, we just moved into it in September. Um, I. Augustine Institute headquarters had been in, uh, Denver, Colorado for the past 20 years.

This is a 284 acre campus. It's the former Boeing Management Training Center. So when you'll go there, you'll see there's four hotels on the campus. There's a. Humongous, uh, dining area. There's classrooms, there's presentation areas. The grounds are beautiful. Um, it's just there, there's a whole full gym, you know, uh, it, it, it's amazing.

So, uh, I highly, when you come, not only are you gonna have a wonderful time talking with us, right, you know, people who are like into the shroud, but it's just gonna be a really great experience because the campus and the [00:48:00] facility is amazing.

Guy: Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm definitely, uh, very excited about it. So, uh, well anyway, again, thank you Sean and, uh, for those in the audience, uh, definitely stay tuned for many other videos in this series on the backstory of the shroud of, of Turin.

And, uh, if you'd like to please go to, uh, guy powell.com and sign up for more of these episodes. They're also available in Apple on Spotify. And if you like this episode, please rate it with five stars. Sean, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it.

Sean: God bless you guy. Hope

Guy: to

Sean: see you soon.

Guy: Yeah, definitely.

Well, on to, uh, on and upwards to, uh, St. Louis. Absolutely. See you there.