Hello, everyone, Tracie here, your resident business rebel, and you're listening to Cocktails, Coffee and Conversations podcast, the show that lets true stories and insider secrets of digital entrepreneur life unfold. Our business world is growing. And as an online business coach and digital product creator, I believe you didn't become an entrepreneur to grin and bear your way through business. So I'll be your guide as we drop in on coaching calls, have intimate sit downs with online personalities you love and discuss ideas, opportunities, and strategies circulating our online world. So pop in your earbuds, tap follow. And join me as I demystify this thing called business. As long as things are a conscious decision, you're not doing it wrong. There is no wrong. There's just doing it your way. Welcome in everyone. Today I am joined by Sue McLachlan of the Unicorn Advisory. If you haven't come across Sue yet, she's an online business strategist and Kajabi expert. She loves talking about Kajabi. Marketing courses, launching, and online business. And that's what you'll hear in these special sessions where you get to drop in on us having an inside chat about hot topics in the online business world. And today's is about the sometimes controversial VIP upsell. Ever wondered about adding a VIP upsell to your offer? Well, we're going to dive into if you should, when you should and how to, if you choose to, to make sure it's different from your main offer. Let's go beyond the idea of a money grab and into how these options can elevate your offer and impact. Let's listen in. Should you do it? Just because someone told you to do it, a coach or someone in a program, or should you do it because you've seen someone else doing it and you think, Oh, someone else is doing it. I should be doing it too. Do you need to have some kind of VIP offer next to your main job? Offer. And are there situations where you might need it in situations where you don't need it? What's what's your, what's your thinking? I would say that need is a strong word and we don't really need any of it. Right. It's, it's what is it that we're trying to build and what's going to help us kind of like feel relaxed and help the people to, to the best of our ability. Right. So like VIPs aren't, um, a money grab. You know, that they don't have to just be like some sort of, Oh, let me make this even more expensive for somebody. Uh, it's very much a case preached. That is so common. It's like, Oh, well, you know, you're leaving money on the table if you don't have like a higher price point. Right. Yeah. And I'm also leaving money on the table at 10 a. m. on a Saturday. And I don't care. It's Saturday. Leave me alone. You know, I'm going to be under my duvet. So what, the, the, the, as long as things are a conscious decision, you're not doing it wrong. There is no wrong. There's just doing it your way. And like the, the, Ideal concept and reason behind a VIP, um, bump, like, uh, or upgrade off of whatever somebody wants to call it is to give people a higher touch who needs it, right? So like, if you have a group program, that's going to take care of thousands. We don't have thousands of calendar time one on one, but for 15 people, we might be able to fit in an hour call or we, or sometimes like I even have a VIP that is a group call because it is a low ticket mass. Audience. Yeah. So, you know, for the 10 to 50 people that might take me up on it, we all come together. But for, you know, 500 or a thousand, that's not really that realistic, right? Uh, you know, it's like, it doesn't matter what zoom plane you're on. We're not going to fit. So there's, there's that. Aspect of it that just kind of, um, the people who really feel like they need that time from you can still get a bit of that, even if they are in that group environment where they get to learn from each other as well. Yeah. And also there's situations like if you are currently a coach and you're moving the other way where you're coaching one to one and you really love it and you enjoy it, but you just maxed out with time and you're bringing in digital products to try and You know, help you not have to rely on that time for money, but you still want to be able to offer that. It gives you a way where you can make the transition and you sort of can have this, you know, self study sort of do it yourself program. And then for a select few, you can offer that, you know, that one on one so that, like you said, for the people that need it, and it's not going to be everyone, it actually helps you, you know, help a bigger spectrum of your audience, because some people will always go for the one on one option. Thank you, Ada. Have the funds. They just don't want to deal with the hassle of having to go through and learn something, or they just really learn best when working with someone. Whereas other people, you know, are like, Oh, just let me do it in my own time. I want to study at midnight. I don't want to have to worry about calls and stuff. So it's kind of, you know, a way that you can help more than one type of person. Yeah. Cause there's also like privacy things, right? Like depending on what you're coaching people through or the type of human that you work with, they might have a very generic industry standard need, but they don't want to talk about it in the big group, you know, that they have, they have their own issues, their own reasons, their own situations for why they're not willing to like hold their hand up for a hot seat, you know, with 20 other people, they, they want that more. So, I mean, like VIPs. Can can be like one on one and just a Voxer to write like it doesn't have to be a dedicated zoom. There's lots of ways to give people that kind of private time. So either. Talk through what they think are special circumstances or just give them that safe space to feel like that they can actually kind of offload, you know, what's going on in, in relation to what it is that, you know, that you two have already agreed to work with, you know, like with each other on, uh, you know, and, and go from there. I mean, I have a client that, um, helps people going through a divorce. Okay. Well, there might be. Some places where you're okay to talk about it. And some humans who are sharing it all on Instagram stories day by day. But for a lot of times it's like, can I join this group anonymously? You know, can I add code names? Is there someplace I can ask a question, but you don't call me out whenever you go to answer it? You know, there's, there's those kinds of situations that, you know, that naturally occur. Oh, it's such a nice way to look at it. Like instead of it, cause none of what you've said. Is about the money, like absolutely none of it. It is literally about how you can create these little containers within your, you know, what you're doing to be able to help people with exactly where they're at and what they need. And this is why I love talking to you because it's. It's kind of taking the focus off you as the course creator, coach, consultant, and putting the focus on, well, what do people need? Like, how can I help them? And, you know, turning it into meeting their solutions rather than being like, how can I make this offer? Make me more. Money, which is unfortunately the first place that people turn to when you are looking at adding that tier. Yeah. And, and I will say, you know, especially with, with what I do, profit is not a bad word in my world, you know, and I'm all about like, yeah, you know, and, and, and I'm all about like having, um, a, an, an ethical cost buildup is what they're actually called in the finance world. Um, and so it's like making sure that you have those layers in, um, Of not just saying, Oh, they get access to me, therefore it has to be four or five figures, but more it's like, um, this is the time that I would be doing something else. This is where I'm, I'm already focusing. I need to bring in these other team members. I need to outsource this, you know, there's all these layers in, and it's, and that, that's what we mean when we say like, it's not just a cash grab, right? Like it will be a higher price. Um, but that is. Yeah. Like, but that, that is for that access. That is also to cover the other resources versus whenever people just look at it, um, not just as a cash grab, but also as like a velvet rope. Yeah, right. You know, like, like they're, they're using, um, they're trying to make up a luxury brand or they, they are trying to kind of like create a poor tax or, um, you know, the segment will say that their audience in, you know, into other people. And there's ways to do that without it being about judging people's wallets. Right. Yeah, exactly. And it also comes Back to like, what is your motivation for doing it in the first place? If your motivation is just about money, you're going to create a different offer than if your motivation is about, well, what, you know, what do people in my audience for this product need to help them be able to, you know, implement it better, um, get support. If they need extra support, like you, that's what I mean. Like when you were talking about everything that you mentioned before, it was from the perspective of that client customer student and what they need rather than looking at it from yourself. However, you know, It's it does need to be priced at that place. That makes it make sense for you. Like for me right now, having come off, you know, months of burnout recovery, like I just can't do calls the way I used to be able to do calls. Like, you know, in the past I could have done four and five calls in a day. Sure. I would have been tired, but now two calls that I knew. Yeah. Like I am absolutely maxed out. And if I then, if I had two calls every day, like a two call, if I have a two call day now, I'm like, All right. The rest of the day, I can't do much. And so I have to account for that when I'm thinking about the price point of doing that. And I also have to account for if I can really only probably fit, I don't know, two or three, maybe four people max in a week or to work with at one time. And for you, that might be different. Like you might be like, you're looking at me going. Uh, for people like you might be like, okay, two is enough for my capacity. And, and that is completely individual. And some people will be like, well, I can only work with two people at a time. And so you have to price that accordingly because you have to then you've got that limitation. And that is also okay. If that container is. Limited to, you know, two, five, 10 people, whatever the case is. And then because of that, it is a substantial investment because you're like, well, it takes a lot out of me to give to you and to support you. And I want to do that, but you know, I need to be compensated for that. Right. But I mean, it's, it's the cost of what you're not doing at that time, right? Like how you're not using your time in your business. Yeah. Yeah. But that's where it's kind of that tricky thing where you're like, Oh, am I chanting too much? And it, and it's a case of, if you start first from what someone needs and that is your starting point and then you work out, well, what is the appropriate price rather than going, I want to have a five figure offer. What would I do? Like it's a completely different. You know, I don't know what you call it, mindset framing, like whatever the, it, it, it, it's a whole different feel, you know, it's a feel for you. It's a different feel for when your audience receives as much as they want, you know, like, like as much as of, of the, the content as well as like the sales promo stuff, how much that they'll even be willing to accept, you know, at, at that, at that point too, because it very much has. Um, has a different, a different feel to it. And even it's one of those things where like, even if people can't name what it is, they know something is off. Yeah. Right. It's yeah. Like I always called it my spidey sense, you know? Yeah. It's, it's that same thing with like, Oh, you know, let me not walk down that street. Let me go down this street instead. It's those kinds of things where it's like something about this feels off. It I'm processing this. And it's Thousandth of a second, you know, so like, there's no like conscious dialogue going on. It's just, I'm going to keep scrolling or I'm going to click away or I'm going to leave the, you know, the webinar, the zoom meeting, the whatever. Yeah. And, and I know that we could have an entire episode on just pricing. Um, but we can also have one. Could we have an entire episode on the emotional aspect of decision making because what you just described, that is someone making a decision based on an emotion, which it doesn't matter if you have a 50, 000 sales page by the best copywriter in the entire world and all the bells and whistles. If someone had goes emotion, none of that matters. And that's the real thing. And even. Even when they're logical decision makers, there's still the emotion underlie, right? Because what, what happens on a subconscious versus conscious level is you're trying to talk yourself into something or trying to talk yourself out of something. So when, when you, you fall. You know, whenever you like just follow the logic and you're like, Oh, okay. These take the boxes when you're actually in that container, you're miserable. You know, like, like that none of the videos are right. All the things are wrong. Oh, you know, why couldn't the community be here instead of there? Like you end up with this kind of like curmudgeon personality and you're like, what's going on? I really wanted to do this. And it's like, Did you? Well, that's what I just wanted to mention. I hope we'll, I hope, hope we'll try and stay on track with this. Cause we can have a, we can have a lot of discussions about all the different things, but you were just saying about how you can end up in that place where you're like, Oh, like as a, you know, as the person and, and maybe that's because you're offering some sort of coaching container as an upsell, but you don't really want to, but you're doing it because. Someone on the interwebs said you should like, you know, is it something like, do you always need to have that extra tea with an offer or can you just have an offer? And he's the offer like in your opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it works the same whether you're the seller or the buyer. Yeah. It's that thing of like, like, um, you never do write your promo emails. You never get that stupid real made. You never do these things because it's like, okay, I had this plan. I had this template, I had this, whatever, and I'm going to do it. And I just don't do it. And then the self shame, the guilt, the whatever, the what, what's wrong with me? Um, why is everybody else doing this? And I'm not, and it's like, There's nothing wrong with you. It's just a massive sign that that's not the right one for you. And that can be right now. It can just be, I don't want to add this to this offer, but it might be the right strategy for another offer. Right. We don't have to cookie cutter every single offer. We don't have to always have a VIP date or never have it. We're Goldilocks, right? We get to have that sweet middle point. Because it's our business, we get to decide and we get to decide every single time. We get to choose what everything looks like. And also it could be that you think you've got to add some sort of one on one as your VIP to you, because again, that's what you see other people doing. But it's also good to think about you as a As a person, like, do you even want to have any, because there is no shame and no any shade or whatever, and not ever offering anything. One on one like your VIP team might just come with, you know, additional bonuses and resources. If you decide to offer it, it doesn't always need to be about coaching. And I, and I have found that a lot of, you know, things when it leads into that is really leaning towards coaching. Um, and yeah, it can, there's other options. What, um, have you seen that? Um, you know, isn't coaching, but is a way to sort of have that elevated, more supportive way. Um, yeah. And you can kind of think about it. You know, like a bundle at that point. Right. So I've, I've done them personally, as well as like seeing them done with my clients. Um, so like one, I said that one option was a group call. So that is still a coaching element, but it is, you know, like, um, um, everybody there together. And what I do for mine, not that anybody else has to do this, but is I then promise them that they, they will have like a laser coaching time, you know, if they come on it, right. So it's still a group, but I will stay there. And it may be in time to, yeah, yeah, yeah. In time to talk to everybody. Right. Um, the other option is like a VIP. You also get, um, you know, the, this other course that I have, um, you get access to, you know, to the group Voxer channel, you get access to basically it, it's a way to, um, Have access, not just to more material, right? Cause we're not students, we're business owners. Yeah. And, and it, but it's a way to get access to a different community as well. Yeah. Right. You know, um, so it's not just like a bunch of people that may or may not be in like a student Facebook group or something, but it's a dedicated group where it's like, they can share their wins. They can share their questions. They can learn from each other. And have kind of that taste of like a peer mastermind situation where, you know, where they're going off of each other. And then I'm also there to facilitate as much as I am or am not. Right. I think that I've seen is, um, where you have a self study program and you sell it as self study on, on evergreen. And then you maybe like once or twice a year offer a live. Version of that where you actually have that implementation focus, and maybe you go through it as a group for like four weeks or six weeks. And it's kind of turning that evergreen product into a cohort, but not everyone wants to do that. So it's an additional price point for that kind of guided version of the course. So it's not that the course is different. It's just that instead of someone just going off on their own, they get to have that experience of doing it with a group of other people, which is, you know, always motivating. And for some people it's what they need. Others are just like. Just leave me to my own devices. I want to go through everything on triple speed and get it done by the end of the week. And you know, for those people that do want that implementation and they do want that, Hey, let's get this done by the end of the week, it can help give motivation. And that's a way of differentiating between two offers. And yeah. And the one that I was thinking of was duh for my quiz program. Oh, um, my, my VIP option there is not actually more access to Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not more access to me. It's access to tech experts. Yeah. Nice. Right. Because, I mean, And instead of charging more for the entire program and bringing those people in for everybody, it's a way to say, you know, I have my team. I have my designer or I have this under control. I don't need that part versus I've tried on my own. Can one of you do it? Right. And so it's bringing in the platform people, it's bringing the designer and it's bringing in a VA group where, so like whichever aspect of that you need, you pay one bundle price with the actual group program, um, which of course has payment options as well. But then that way it's like a holistic pricing to get whatever part of that, that they need. So it's. I mean, you could kind of think of it like coaching, but it's not for me. It's from the people who know what they're talking about in that area coming in to help and to supplement. And you've already vetted those people and it saves the job of someone having to then go and recruit and find, which is a whole thing in itself. Yes. So like I have a tech person. To sometimes to find the tech person takes more work than the actual tech. And so if you were finding the right one. Yeah, exactly. And so if you can say, Hey, I can shortcut your time by saying, here's this person. They'll help you implement. That's a really great incentive. And it's not on you then as the, you know, as the, as the business owner to provide more resources, which you may not have the capacity for. And that's a nice way to sort of add value without it necessarily being you adding more of you. Yeah. Yeah. And in, in my example, I was laughing because, uh, it's not a capacity thing. It's a knowledge thing. Like, because you call on your tech. I've never touched tech expert. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was like, it's you for Kajabi, I have someone that does WordPress and Squarespace. Like it's the same human that does both. Yeah. Um, you know, and then like the canvas side and then the VA people to tick the boxes and put it in because they're, and they're not just, um, you know, 'cause VA isn't a job title, it's an industry. Right? And, and so it's a case of it's someone who actually knows how to use the quiz program, actually knows how to use, you know, whatever your email provider is actually knows how to use whatever your website provider is to plug all those pieces in. So it's, it's a lot quicker. And because I get to come to them and say, Hey, can you do this for my people? Then I get to create a bundle price that again, if someone was doing that on their own, Who knows what kind of rates they would have, what kind of trial and error there would be. They would feel like they were writing, you know, um, like, like, uh, doing four invoices instead of just paying one, you know, all that kind of stuff. So that is another like real life example of a VIP offer. That's not coaching, not for me. And a lot of people for a lot of people, they value their time really strongly. And they will always go for that. You'll have this, you know, percentage of your audience. Even if you're, it doesn't matter what niche you're in, there will always be some small part of your audience that will just immediately be like, Oh yeah, I want someone to do it for me. Or like, I just want the quickest path. And if the, the path, this, you know, VOP path is going to get me there quicker or get me there better or help me more than they'll just be like, Oh, I'll just take that. Option. And it's, you know, easy. And sometimes as well, I think we can forget as a business owners, if we aren't the type of person to do that because we are quite self-sufficient. It's easy to forget that other people in our audience don't think like us. Um, and I come across, you know, a probably more so for me in my audience because there's a lot of people that are newer and, you know, uh, perhaps a bit stretched for resources and going, oh, I've had to pay for this course and that course and this software. And they're trying to, and this software. And software. Yeah. And they're trying to keep costs under control. So the VIP option isn't always the natural choice. And especially if you, as the, as the creator, like for you, you might be in that situation. So your mindset, it's, it's just one of those things. I think it's really important with pricing in general is not to base your pricing decisions on what you as a person think and actually get the feedback. From your audience and your customers about what they think, because often it's so different. And, um, you know, we can go into a whole nother thing, all about pricing. I'm sure we will have many chats about pricing, but I just thought, just, you know, just remember that if you are considering, especially if you're doing something, you're like, Oh, that seems so expensive. It's okay. If it seems expensive for you, because you are not your ideal customer, your ideal customer is, you know, someone potentially in your audience who values. Time, perhaps over money and speed and execution and ease of implementation. So like you just said, they don't have to go and do four enforcers and find four freelancers and, and go through the hassle. They might be like, I avoid hassle and I pay for that privilege. Whereas you might be like, I, I. Can handle the hassle because I'm on a budget. So, yeah. Yeah. And it's that classic trade off with business, right? It's, it's always, um, uh, like your two most viable resources is your money and your time. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you have more of one than the other, right? So we just kind of play to whatever advantage that we have. And so for, for all of you listening to us, um, ask yourself, are, are the people that you're going after, is it different people? For each of your different offers, or is it the same human that's at a different time each time? Right. Because I can tell you that I am at a point now. I am so tired of learning things. I just want somebody else to do it. Whereas in the beginning, it wasn't just like a question of, do I have more time or do I have more money? Which one do I want to leverage? Which one do I want to use? It was also a case of, Oh, this is interesting. I want to learn what this is. Yeah. You know, or this is my area of expertise, but here's a whole other like, you know, lane that I haven't experienced yet. So I need to learn it in order to help when I am coaching other people. And now I'm like, I don't, I don't, I don't need to learn the 15, 000 depths of Canva. It doesn't excite me. Other people absolutely love it. Great. Yeah. I, I go down such, such long, long rabbit holes or rabbit warrens, I think of, of things where it's like trying to find one stupid picture and I look up and it's been 45 minutes and there there's that case of like, oh, okay, I can use this one, but, but I'm, there may be another one. Let me keep scrolling. There may. I mean, this scroll bar has to end, right? I'm so far down. I mean, I have to almost be to the end. Right. Okay. Yeah. Hour and 15 minutes later. I still haven't picked the stupid picture. To, to do that for you makes sense. For you. Yeah. In the beginning, you might've been like, Oh no, I really want to learn how to, how to do this. And that's where it's, you know, I'll go back to what you were talking about right in the beginning when you were sort of thinking about, well, what is my client need? Like what does the person who this offer for, like what do they need and not make it about you and, and what you think is appropriate, like really look at them and how your offer can support them. I love what you said about like, well, what place are they at? On their, on their journey. And, and do you have almost like with the one offer, like two different parts of your audience, like you've got that part of your audience that's, you know, like, Oh no, you know, learn this and dig in. And then you've got part of your audience that's like, well, I want to learn this, but I also just want to shortcut this whole process and get it done as quickly as, as possible. But that's still learning the same thing. Like with your quizzes program, for example, like you've got people who want to learn a quiz and then you've got people who want to learn it, but they also just want to get their thing done. Like, Now. Yeah. Yeah. And, and it's also a case of like, like looking for those of you who've been in business for, you know, like at least a year or I've done at least like a couple of, you know, launches and, and offers have gone out into the world. Then, um, are you noticing that you are getting like a new crop of people each time, because someone may graduate from your services and it's time for them to move on to somewhere else. Or are you noticing that even if that was what you had intended, you having these like loyal group of people that are hanging out with you almost for every single offer and you're not expecting it. Right. So it can be that, that, that place where it's like, Oh, hang on. Are they, I thought I was just helping the people at the beginning, but now these people who already went through my beginning are still with me and they're still buying stuff, you know, so they're, they're at that, that different evolution. They need that different layer of, um, you know, of support and, and, uh, different kind of, I mean, we change as business owners and we kind of will evolve our own offers and kind of move away with things or add other things. But we, we often have, um, uh, at least a little subset of people that are very loyal and they're coming with us too. And that, that's a great opportunity for you to say, Okay. Then do I want to provide something for them or do I want to like bless and release and let them graduate on and refer them to the other things because I want to stay in, you know, at this certain stage. Right. And your VIP bumps can help with that. Like it, you know, you can, you can help then make sure that those people feel ready to move on somewhere else, or you can keep a core offer and experiment with what that next level offer would, would look like for the that, that are still hanging out with you. Yeah. And because sometimes that next level, like what you're making a VIP option is actually its whole own thing. And it doesn't necessarily need to be an option for this offer. It can be like a graduation, like you said. So it can be like, do you, do you need to have that even on there or do you just need to have that as a standalone thing? That's completely separate its own sales page, its own, you know. Yeah. And the answer can be yes to both, right? Yeah. Cause like you could use that, that VIP option to test, to experiment, to try out a new offer without it needing to stand on its own, just to see if you're seeing like, like, you know, that your humans kind of, kind of, um, self separate and pick where they want to be. And one of my, my favorite ways is if you're like, Oh, I really want to make this a bonus. I really want to make this a VIP. I really want to do this and it doesn't actually have any direct link. Put it in the FAQs and make your question of, is this going to help me with. insert what this other option is actually going to help people with and then tell them say no actually this program is for blah blah blah if you're looking for help with blah blah blah then click here and then they can go and they can see that other one so you aren't um overwhelming people you're not offer stacking for no reason you know and you're keeping things kind of like clean and you know And still directing, you know, your, your humans to where they want to go so they can still self select and choose and not feel like they have to take this offer and hopefully it will do what they want. Yeah. Yeah. My gosh, we could talk about this for hours, but because we're talking about having those like tears, the last thing that I want to cover off is how do you make the tears different enough? Because I've had a lot of experiences where, um, Where I've seen where you have program a and then option, you know, option a and option B and. And it being that they're not different enough so people can get confused, especially if your original offer, like, and I see this, um, quite often with membership programs where the initial membership comes with some kind of, um, coaching or support. And then the, the second offer just comes with more coaching and support. And. You know, just wondering your thoughts around it. Cause I can, I find it sometimes a little bit confusing, both if I'm deciding to join a membership program going, well, do I even need that one? Am I going to get that in the, in the first one? Like, what is the benefit to me? And, um, yeah, I think it's something that you can get stuck on. And I think also it comes from that same place of like, Oh, well, so and so coach said. I should have a high ticket or a high tier offer. And then you're creating it to meet your need for a high tier rather than from the customer's perspective. But what's your thoughts around that, you know, that situation where it's kind of a slightly better version of the same thing. And you actually, um, said it in the words that you used. You said, what's in it for me? Where's the benefit? And this is a case where even in your pricing card as the customer, you mean like, like the what for me? Yeah. Like, like, you know, e even in the pricing card, even whenever you are, you know, listing with your little plus signs or your check marks or whatever you wanna use. Yeah. You know? And, and that is classically listing features. Yeah. The part above has to be a description of who needs it. So you're calling out the characteristics of who's right for this versus who's right for that. Yeah. Right. And this is also your place to set up expectations. So if we go back to that example of like these loyal people that you thought would have already moved on and yet here they are year three, then it's like, if you're someone who's already three plus years into business and you're really wanting a higher level focus of blah, blah, blah, choose this one. If you're someone who feels like you have, um, you know, private circumstances or situations, or you need to move faster than what the program schedule is, choose this one. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, like you were straight up calling out, um, who is it right for, but by your criteria as the creator, because that's who you want to serve in this group versus that group. But also, so they're like, Oh, okay. I clearly see this. This is a membership. It has group coaching. I don't feel like I need the one on one private once a month or the Voxer access or the whatever else, um, because all of these things fit me, or I really want this membership. I'm glad that we have full access to stuff instead of things being dripped out, but I'm not fully sure where to start. Start or I'm trying to launch this promo right now. So I need extra help, but then I want to work on this other thing in the background. Great. Here's an SOS Voxer access for you. Well, it on, on like the, um, a separate episode for pricing, something that I keep not saying, because I'm like, it's going to be a whole other episode is like, what bonuses do I add? You know, why do I do this? Why do I do that? So it, whenever you're thinking about a VIP offer, It's also a case of like the bundle example I gave earlier, is it something that's going to help somebody achieve the original promise then tick the box and make that a bonus, make that an extra thing that they're going to get because it's going to elevate, um, what you already told them that they're going to get right in setting up those expectations versus thinking, um, Oh, I could give them. You know, a group call in a month and access to an evergreen product that I already have as a VIP. And it's like, okay, one, do those relate? How does it help them get that original promise that you put all the way at the top of the page, the whole thing that you've been saying on socials and in all of your lives and every other mechanisms that you're using. Um, and if it doesn't hit that, then. Put it down in FAQ and let them decide which one do they need, um, or decide, okay, no, this needs to be in the program. It needs to be a bonus. It's not a part of the core content, but it's something they need or it doesn't have a place at all. And I need to save this for a separate promo, right? Like you were saying earlier. Yeah. And I think it's such a good exercise to go through with what you're saying. Like. Think for yourself. Like if you had to just write it down, if someone asked you, if they got on a, on a call and they were like, well, this is my situation. Is it right for me? Like, can you answer someone? Can, if someone said to you, which option should I choose? Can you go, Oh, you're in this situation. You should choose that. Or you're in that situation. You should choose that. So actually really thinking about it from that. Who is this rightful with your own offer? Like thinking, well, who is that version for? And who is that version for? And then literally calling that out, it's going to enable if you can't do it. Then there is absolutely no way in hell your potential customer client student is going to be able to do it. So it's a, it's a nice exercise to go through to see, am I being clear enough? Yeah. And it is a flag for yourself to realize that you haven't fully fleshed out your offer yet. Exactly, right, which is okay. You can be in the middle of or like in prelaunch. Hopefully you're not all the way to promo time, but you know, like, like you can be in prelaunch and you're, you're trying to, you know, make sure your page is all done and trying to get all the final details going and then be like, Oh, I'm not really sure. Okay, great. Go back to what you wrote or someone wrote for you on the page and see who are you already calling out? What expectations are you already setting? And have you put all of the materials, all of the things, all of the time in place to tick those boxes before you ever worry about adding anything else? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's what helps people feel like you can add later. Like you don't have to do it right off the bat. It can be like, Oh, well this launch, I'm going to keep it simple. And then next launch, I'm going to see like, especially if it's a new program, like, where are people getting stuck? Like, what am I getting people going? Oh, I wish you did that. And you might decide to put that in the original offer, or you might be like, Oh, that is the perfect thing that I could have is that accelerated or enhanced, you know, It's like the, the, keep it simple. If you can't like be super clear about it, then just leave it off and, you know, bring it in later. You can offer it as, you know, a separate program and upsell. There's so many different ways that you can sell something else down the track. Like don't put something in just because you think you should. Yeah, you know, like you can straight up gift it and be like, Hey, I've been hearing from a lot of you that this is going on. I think this is going to help. So I'm going to go ahead and you know, everybody's going to get access to this and I'm going to do a special live in our group, you know, community and let you know how this fits in. Yeah. You know, like there, there's lots of different ways that you can do it. And then in the next launch, it can be something that you're, you know, that you're charging for that year or whatever. But, um, and that, that leads to yet another, we'll save it for a different episode of, of talking about surveying your people, when to do it, what to ask, how to ask it. It is, it's beyond satisfaction and it's beyond just testimonials. You can do both at the same time. And, and that's all I'll say about that. Yeah. I know. And then I'm like, Oh, that's opening up a whole nother, um, Episode about, um, doing things because you think it's like being so worried about setting up the perfect offer or the right offer or doing something wrong. There is no right or wrong. There is an offer. You see how that lands and then you tweak, adjust, keep the same, whatever for the next time. And that comes back to surveying. So just, you know, if you're stressing out about it, just. Pick, pick a lane, stick in that lane. And then next time you can pick a different lane. There is no, you know, you were going to have more than one launch, more than one product, more than one offer in your business. So don't be so fixated on getting it right and getting it perfect that you don't put anything out there like. Just do it. And then you can do it again and again and again and again, like, and yeah, I know that especially if you haven't launched before, you feel like this first launch or the first product that you put out there, like if you don't get it right, your entire business and future success, everybody's going to hate you. And yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, that is what, that is, well, and that, that is just a fear and a doom spiral, right? Because the more open, the more human you are with people, like, you know, afterwards you can say like, send the email to all the people that didn't buy and be like, you know, thanks so much for sticking with me through this promo time. It was actually a bit of a back and forth between do people need this? Do they not? If you have a strong opinion, please hit reply and let me know. Otherwise know that I am always thinking about how I can make this better. And I appreciate you just being in my community. Yeah. And, you know, and that's just sending them an email saying, thanks for being there, but also showing it's like, you are actually wondering what do they need, which is a cue for them to give you more. Right. Uh, you know, and, and, uh, above all, like the greatest litmus test for all of this is just to remember that everything is a suggestion, even what the two of us are saying right now, it is all a suggestion for you to take on. And. You know, I, I really, I understand. Yeah. You know, and, and I understand and I feel that there's a lot of pressure, you know, with what we're doing. And so we feel like every single dollar, every single, you know, um, piece of, of option, every single person that comes on our email list that may end up hating us, you know, all these kinds of, of, um, real, yeah. Like it makes everything feel like it's do or die. And we can promise you after all of our years of combined and individual experience that it's not. And if you treat people like humans, they will forgive. They will forget. They will move on. Some people will love you forever. And never buy from you or not need to consume your content because they already know you in an other way, right? So it, whenever you're feeling all of that kind of pressure of, I have to do what this guru says, because I have to pay my mortgage and I have to get these things done. And this, and if this doesn't look right, my business is going to fail. Um, that, that is that, that fear part coming in and that's a time when you got to step back. You got to go to whatever network you have, you know, your, your family, your partner, your friends, yourself in a tree, you know, hug a tree. It does a lot of good. You know, it's like what, whatever, um, is in there to kind of, uh, Separate that and realize that, yeah, your money may be, may be tight right now. It may be a case of you feel embarrassed or you feel shame of what someone's going to think about how well you did or didn't do, or whether you're going to get to put out a, a successful launch post in some group or whatever. But. Your health, your mindset, your, you know, like all of that safety parts for you matters more and the rest will work itself out like we don't have to put. You know, our, our newborn babies, you know, college money on our very first offer that we put out there. Right. And, and that, that can be very difficult to separate yourself from, but the sooner that you start to do that, The, the less bumpy your entire entrepreneurial journey will be. So that was a little PSA, Sue. Sorry. I had to make sure to get that in for everybody. I will. And it, one of the easiest ways to get out of that spiral is to, to take the focus off your needs and what you want and put it onto your audience. Like what does my audience need and how can I help them with it? Rather than going, Oh, it's like. Like doomsday and, and, you know, like, that's what you said right back in the beginning, like when you were even crafting the offer, like, what do they need? How will this help? And yeah, that, that makes you then get the focus off of that, that you stuff and in the most important place, which is with your customers and, and what they need so that you can create things to, to support them that also support you too, which is the whole beautiful. Thank you for joining me here in cocktails, coffee, and conversations. Be sure to check out the show notes for all the links mentioned today. And while you're there, I'd love for you to rate and review the show. And if you have a topic or question you want me to answer, I want to hear it. Head to Tracie Patterson. com slash AMA and ask me anything about business. If I don't know it, I'll bring it up with one of my guests until next week, be well and have some fun.