Hi, and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G, and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan, and today we're gonna be talking about cats and more specifically, community cats and tnr. So for that, I brought two special guests. We have Dan Spehar from the Together Initiative for Ohio Community Cats. Some of you may remember him. He helped us out with some information about Ohio's deserts, um, when we were talking about the problem faced with a lack of veterinarians in Ohio. And our second guest is Mona McKinniss, the Director of Colony Cats. So I'm gonna have them introduce themselves. Uh, let's start with you Dan. Uh, welcome back. And how about you let everybody know who you are and what do you do?

Thanks for having me, Dr. G. I'm the, uh, co-founder of the Together Initiative for Ohio's Community Cats. We're an organization that we're, we're not out there. as the Together Initiative trapping and doing that important work. We're supporting those efforts of others through, Education and through promoting collaboration. so we hold events and we publish materials, such as our guide to, community care resources in the state that we put out a couple of months ago. so that's, uh, the Together initiative. And then I've had the, pleasure of doing research on community cat management for the last eight years or so. Uh, so I think we're gonna talk about that a little bit

later. Our second guest is Mona McKinnis. And Mona, I will start by saying that I have known for a very long time back, uh, 2001 ish, give or take. Not that we're keeping numbers, but I've known her for a really long time. So, hey, Mona, how about you tell us who you are, where you came from, how you got involved, and where you're at.

Thank you, Dr. G. And I'm, I'm so thrilled to be here. I appreciate, the exposure on this, this problem and this issue. but, I, uh, moved back to Ohio and, um, realized that rescue was not necessarily the, important thing we needed to do. The spay neuter, this was back in, about 2001 and, um, started to do some TNR. There wasn't really any of that going on. And, you were one of the few vets that actually knew what a feral cat was. A lot of vets would say, sure, we do ferals. Are they friendly? And, um, that just didn't work back then. It still doesn't work. But, um, from there we just sort of, uh, the organization sort of grew into primarily a T N R organization. We still do a lot of that, but now we also have a cat adoption center in Dublin. And, we, uh, Our primary focus is still the T n r, but there's just a lot of other problems that are out there now that, make

everything harder. Yeah. So you brought up an important point, and if that's education as far as what is a feral cat. So what, what is a feral cat? We see the, the word thrown around a lot on social media and people get really angry and there's a lot of confusion. So what, what actually is a feral cat? You wanna start?

Go for it. Well, the, the original feral cat was the cat that was, uh, living outside. Didn't want anybody to touch it, didn't want social contact, um, wanted little interaction with humans, just put down the food and leave. Um, I think it's grown now to the point where they've, um, Changed it to call them community cats so that it includes all of the cats outside. That includes the feral cats that still don't wanna be socialized or touched. But the community cats now include the friendlies and the abandoned cats that are perfectly happy outside, as long as they're in a safe place and, um, we just need to provide them with shelter, food, and spay neuter so that they live their lives. But, It helps cut down the population.

Right. And that's basically why your, your group Dan is called Together Initiative for Community Cats. Right? Is that, can you tell us a little bit about that? Right,

right, right. I, I think Mona hit it right on the head. Um, community Cats is kind of an umbrella term to include all the cats that live outside. Um, oftentimes they are stray cats or, lost cats. Uh, sometimes they are what. Some people don't like the word to ever be used, but feral cats. So unsocialized cats. Um, so they can be social or unsocialized cats. but TNR is, is the right, management, tool for any of those cats. So spay and neuter is gonna be the focus either way.

Yeah, bring, trying to bring. Outdoor cats into shelters has two problems from how I see it. Right? It has the problem of the cat's not gonna thrive, and then you are also going to increase the amount of animals that are in a shelter. So it's gonna make it more burdensome for the shelter and more difficult for the cats that are already there. So do you have some statistics, Dan, on how TNR helps the community, helps shelters?

I sure do. a couple of the studies or. Three actually, that we did, uh, several years ago now. But the numbers, uh, are still very relevant. Um, in addition to tnr, which is of course trap new to return, for anybody out there who might not be familiar, um, normally that's a community-based program where, uh, folks are gonna trap the cast that are outside. Again, the, the ferals or the stray cats that are outside have them spayed or neutered, vaccinated for rabies in many cases, ear tipped and then returned to the location where they were trapped, uh, to be cared for by a caretaker on an ongoing basis. Um, a complimentary program to that, that, uh, originated. Several years ago is called Return to Field, or maybe Shelter, new to Return. It is known by as well, that's a shelter based TNR program, where as these same cats that are brought to the shelter, rather than being admitted along with the owner surrendered cats, they're going through the same process of being spayed or neutered, vaccinated, and then returned to the place where they were trapped. Um, again, this alleviates, uh, issues of intake and euthanasia. As many as unsocialized cats, they had no chance of being adopted out, and they would be euthanized. So the study that we did, uh, looked at six, what they called, uh, CCPs or community cat programs in six communities. Um, and those were done over three years. And they combined TNR community-based TNR, with shelter based return to field and the six communities. And they saw on average a 32% reduction in shelter intake in those six communities over a three year period and an 83% decline in shelter. Shelter euthanasia for cats. Um, we did another study in Louisville, Kentucky where they had a similar program going on, uh, and over eight years they saw 43% decline in shelter intake for cats and a 94% reduction in euthanasia. So when combined the return to field and the TNR, uh, seemed to be an effective way of reducing both shelter intake and euthanasia of, of cats.

Yeah, so I mean, definitely. TNR is, is efficient, it's cost effective, and then it's humane because these animals are not being euthanized. Mona, what's the, what's the average stay for a cat in rescue in your experience, and then what's the longest that you've had to hold a cat before it gets adopted?

Well, a lot of times it goes back to the, the ones that come in that are not well socialized, that may have been pets in the past, but you know, they become wild pretty quickly. They're survivors, so they learn on the street pretty quickly how to survive. And when you try to take them in, then you know, sometimes they adjust quickly. They go back to being social, and other times it takes longer. I would say. Our average from the time they come in the door. For the ones that are, um, the friendly ones, the ones that have, are still very social. Um, I would say it's probably, six to eight weeks from the time they come in the door, get their vet care and then go up for adoption. Um, but then we do have those cats that hide in the closet. They only come out after we close. Um, you know, there's a push for folks to look for those shy cats when you go into adopt a Cat and give them a chance, because quite often once they get into a home, they, they do much better. But it still is, um, some of the, I've. I, I mean, honestly, we have a couple of cats that are truly feral. We can hardly ever touch them. They come out at night, we can see 'em on the cameras, and, you know, at the time we probably should have put 'em back outside, but it was like, well, let's give 'em a chance. Give 'em a chance, and you know, they're gonna live and die there Now, um, they're, they're not

adoptable. And so many people don't realize that that's not a good life, at least at the shelter. They have space to kind of move around and, and get around. But I know that there are people that try to socialize these cats, and they're basically just living in a small cage for a really long period of time. And that's just detrimental, right? Like it's, it's no way to live. Whereas the concern is being outside. The, you know, okay, they may get hit by a car, they may be attacked by predators or things may happen, but from what I, from what I know, the average lifespan of an outdoor cat tends to be about seven years, give or take. So that tends to be seven good years, happy years outside, years, uh, they're enjoying themselves as opposed to being inside in a small cage let's go through kind of the, the process as far as, you know, you find cats outside, what do you do as far as bringing them in, evaluating what's gonna be the best outcome for them, um, and then deciding what to do with them. Well,

usually when they, when they, people usually surrender them to us. I've been feeding this stray. This is a really nice cat. A lot of times, of course, they're only nice with the person that's feeding them. So we'll take them in. We give them at least a few days to decompress. If they are very friendly, you, you usually know pretty quickly if they're having a hard time adjusting, if they're not letting you touch them, um, if they're hiding in the back of their cage and just not wanting any kind of, uh, contact at all. Then we usually end up getting them fixed and calling the folks and saying, Hey, this is gonna be the best for this cat to go back to where it came from. If they just can't take it back, it's not a good setting, you know, it's dangerous. Um, there's no feeder, that kind of thing. Then we do have a pretty decent barn program and we try to relocate them to a barn. Um, You know, the, the friendly ones of course get their vet care and we try to move them quickly to the adoption floor so that they can move on out to a home. The longer they sit being evaluated or trying to determine if they're okay, the more likely they're gonna get sick, they're stressed, and they're gonna get sick, and then you're trying to medicate and not very social cat, so everything just goes, goes to crap.

Yeah. You know, a, a concern oftentimes for folks is that, you know, well, you know, if we put these cats back outside, um, you know, it's, it's not a good environment for them and. They don't belong outside. They belong inside. And, and there's no doubt everything being equal, maybe, maybe it would be best if every cat lived indoors in a, you know, environment where they had enrichment and, and a good life. But most of these cats that come into these TNR programs, um, are doing pretty well outside. Uh, the numbers tell us, at least on these, uh, Seven programs that we looked at. Less than 1% of the cats that were trapped and brought in for sterilization surgery had to be euthanized or died in care because of poor health. Um, so that's less than 1%. The same thing occurred in Alachua County, Florida. Dr. Julie Levy. Um, she did a study and it was the same situation, uh, down there. Um, and then the six CCPs that we looked at, that was over 72,000 cats. So this isn't like a small sample size. Um, and I do have some limited data locally um, they've kept track of the cats that they've, uh, brought in for sterilization, community, cat companions up there in Lake County. And over an eight year period I was just doing some. Calculations. 1.6% of the cats that they've trapped for sterilization either had to be euthanized or, or died. Um, so. That's a, a pretty small percentage. So it kind of counters the argument that these cats are, you know, doing really, really poorly outside. Um, if they, if they're getting food, um, and then especially after they're spayed or neutered and vaccinated and returned to a colony where they're being, uh, monitored and cared for, um, you know, the situation could be much, much worse for them.

and we know that cats in small environments, they're going to be more likely to get sick. And then the stress of being together. And Dan, you shared about the, just the des veterinary deserts and the difficulty in finding veterinary care. Do you wanna give us a little bit of a recap on that? On the, the struggles that we are facing here in Ohio with the veterinary shortage.

Right, right. We found that there were two major. Clusters of counties in Ohio where there were resource deserts. It was the southeastern portion of the state, which sometimes is called Ohio Appalachia. And then in the west central part of the state, there was another pocket of 11 counties. I think it was 12 counties in southeastern Ohio and 11 counties in uh, West Central Ohio where there were, uh, veterinary, uh, resource spay neuter resource deserts for community cats. Um, so yeah, that, that, that is an issue in, in quite a few counties in the state. Uh,

Sometimes some of the TNR cats that come in are in better shape than some of the indoor cats in some living situations. Right. Especially we get into the concern with hoarders, people that have way too many cats, more cats than they can safely care for or properly care for. And some of these people get into hoarding because they don't want the cats to be outside or they don't want the cats to go to a shelter or be euthanized. So they do it out of care for the cat, but they don't understand that that cat is probably better off being outside, having all the fresh air and having the room and having the ability to move around and exercise as opposed to being stuck inside. Um, We, there are pockets that we go to. For instance, uh, we travel quite a bit to Northeast Ohio and especially like Ashtabula County, they have a really great TNR program that they started, uh, about a year and a half, two years ago. And they're getting a lot of cats. They bring 'em to us, to our, uh, Trumbull County Clinics. And depending on where they're getting these cats, we see some cats that are in great shape. There are other cats that they bring us that are in horrible shape, right? Like covered in fleas, tons of parasites, really thin. Um, but one other benefit of TNR is the fact that those cats are coming to us, we're sterilizing them because even though they're sick, they can still reproduce. But then we're also treating them and making the community healthy. So I think that's something, Mona, that you, that you see right, with some of the cats that we take care of for you.

Oh yeah. And, and we, we vaccinate them, um, for the viral vaccine. The rabies, we flea treat everybody if ear mites, um, parasites. So yes, we try to send them back out there with as much help as we can possibly give them. And when you talk to the people, the feeders later, they, they're amazed at how great they look and, and it, it truly does improve the quality of their life immensely.

Yeah, I mean, even just recently there were, there was a cat that you brought in that had like a big wound on the, on the neck, and you, you're really lucky too though, that you have really great volunteers and trappers that they take them home. They take care of these cats, these tnr, that they're not just trapping them and just letting them go that, you know, what are they doing afterwards? Yeah,

I mean, that, that's something, you know, the wounds that we see, some of the, uh, the injuries and, and the skin infections and that, I mean, we really do try to get them the antibiotics. We, um, have a couple of, they're, we, you'd probably call them crazy cat people, but they really go the extra mile to, to take care of these wounds before we release them, um, to get the dentals done before we release them. Um, so there's. There's just a, a lot of extra stuff we do and, and it just is very upsetting to me sometimes to go to some of these, um, vet clinics that do the high volume. And there'll be people there that they're bringing in the cats to get 'em fixed, but they're not gonna do any flea treatment. They're not gonna do anything extra. They can't afford to. And I appreciate that they're, at least they're getting them fixed. But I just think to myself, these poor cats, this is the one opportunity they have to get things really taken care of, and they'll probably never be touched again by a human. And so, If we can just do as much as we possibly can to improve their lives while we have them on that table. It just, it just means so much. I don't know. It, that's just some, always been something that has been important to me.

Yeah. I mean, we shared on Rascal Extreme not too long ago, the one cat with a tail, right? The Oh God, yes. It was, uh, yeah, there was a, there was a cat that. Had the skin completely tore off the, the tail and it was pretty disastrous. So that cat had to be really uncomfortable and really, uh, having difficulties going to the bathroom and just bringing it in, getting him fixed, and then removing the part of the tail that was abnormal. And now he's pretty much like a normal cat, right? Wouldn't you say?

Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And he's doing fine. I mean, he's, he's, he's back out now and, and he's doing fine. So that, the unfortunate part though, when you talk about the, the void in the vet care, you are one in a million because most vets would not have the time or the ability to really do what you do and. We just see so many bad things on some of these cats that sometimes euthanasia is a better answer, but, you know, we're very fortunate that we have you, but we, we need more of you.

From a shelter standpoint, you know, some of veterinarians are afraid to do things because they're afraid to be wrong, so they're, they're afraid to do something and make things worse, or they're afraid to. You know, kind of get in trouble for doing something that may not have a good outcome. And I try to explain to people that better, to, I hate the word try, but better to try than not. Right, right. Uh, because you can, you kind of have to do something about it. What would you tell the veterinarians out there that may be listening from the shelter side about what your expectations are of what they can and cannot do for these cats? Well, I,

I just wish some of them would, um, just go a little bit further on some of these, some of these issues. I mean, if you know the basic spay neuter, treat 'em for fleas, give them some vaccines. If they're healthy and they don't need anything else, then that's, that's you, you've done everything you need to do. But some of them, especially with some of the dental stuff we see some of these cats' mouths are so awful, and we have a lot of cats out there that have been TNR'd several years ago, now they're older and their mouths are awful. And you can see by the way, they come to the feeding stations that they, they need that dental work. And while it's expensive. I, I don't know that the vet community could contribute a little bit more, um, for dentals and, and that kind of stuff for some of these cats. Um, but it would certainly improve the quality of their life. And, and sometimes you do have to make the decision to, to put 'em down before you send 'em back out with some of these horrible things. Uh, but it, it just seems that maybe a little bit more could be done here and there.

Yeah, I would agree. I mean, having the basics done. Uh, FVRCP, uh, flea treatments, um, you know, any minor wounds taken care of at, at least, hopefully that's, that's part of the basic package. Um, but for folks out there that are hesitant, I mean, just I think you would agree, just the spay neuter is gonna eliminate a lot of these. A lot of the stress and the females of having litter after litter, the males fighting and getting the wounds and the abscesses and the roaming, and then getting hit by cars running across the street, chasing a female to mate or fighting with another male. Just the spay or neuter itself is gonna go a long way towards promoting the health of the cats.

I think it, it kind of gets into are we doing just population control or are you doing, are we doing individual welfare? Right? Mm-hmm. So the spay neuter is population control. And then one of the things that at our facility, at our practice we do is we are doing group herd health, but then we're also caring for that individual like that individual's needs. So, like what I was saying, you know, if there's a tooth that is abscess or whatever, let's pull that out and let's make 'em feel better. If there's. Any kind of other problems than, you know, to do it. And, and realistically, not to say that these animals are expendable, but this is a great opportunity to learn how to deal with some of these problems. So as a veterinarian to say, I'm not comfortable doing this because I don't know how to do it. This is the time to, to, you know, figure it out, to work it out, because, you know, and again, I don't want people to think that I don't care about the, the cat, like it's okay for the feral cat to get used, but it is a, it is an ownerless patient who only has you to take care of it. So might as well give it, give it the chance. Another hot topic with feral and community cat management is testing for leukemia and FIV and then what to do with positive results. So, Dan, do you have any, any information or any opinions about

that? Um, you know, I don't have any, any data on that with me right here, but, I'm of the opinion that no, I, I would not test for that unless there's some symptoms, you know, if there's symptomatic, uh, reason to do that, um, you're better off spending the money on the other care that we're talking about or spay a neutering more cats. Um, in my opinion, I'd, I'd be curious what Mona thinks.

No, I totally agree with that. Um, the cats that are going back outside, you know, if, if you have the philosophy of testing all of them, then what are you gonna do when you come up with positives? Is that gonna change how you take care of them? Or are you gonna put 'em back out knowing that they have this? And you know, if you get a couple of cats in a colony that. Do test positive, are you gonna assume the whole colony is positive or there's there's no reason to even have that information? Un unless they're sick. I mean, if there's a quality of life issue then and you need to make a decision, then you know, that, that could help with that. But no, it's, it's a waste of money to, uh, to test them all.

Yeah. Yeah. With, uh, resources especially, you know, we, we are a lower cost facility, but there are places that will charge 50, 60, $70 for leukemia FIV test. So that's a spay, right? That's a neuter, yeah. So you're literally diluting the amount. And I think that there, I, I wonder if there's a study out there and if not it would be interesting if somebody would do like there, if there's a correlation with the average lifespan of a cat with leukemia or F I V being around seven years. And the average lifespan of an outdoor cat being around seven years. Like, is that, does that have something to do with it? Is that one of the limiting factors to their lifespan? And you know, if, if, again, it would be interesting to know if that has something to do with it or if it's just coincidental. For those out there listening that don't know what Leukemia and FIV are, they're both. diseases that affect the immune system, right? So the leukemia disease is transmitted by saliva primarily. So cats that are sharing water bowls, food bowls that they groom each other, they're gonna be the more likely to to get it. And then FIV is transmitted by blood, so primarily bites. So that's where we see more tom cats having FIV, because they tend to get into fights. So that right there you neutered the male cat, they get into less fights, then we should have a decrease in the, in the amount of FIV. as to the things that you would do like, for just the general tnr cat, one of the things that we also recommend is tipping ear tipping, and that's just removing about a quarter inch of the tip of the left ear. And there are so many people that are against it because they feel that it's cruel to remove the ear tip. And that is a huge pet peeve because you end up with the same cat being brought into the clinic over and over and over and over. So what are your thoughts on ear tipping in general?

You know, when I started in this about 20 years ago, I took my, the cats that I trapped to my own veterinarian, and I was lucky that she would be willing to do it, but she wouldn't ear tip. So when I brought the cats back, they weren't ear tipped and I always worried that, you know, if, if somebody else came along were they gonna trap the cats again, either to have them sterilized again and they'd have to go through, you know, at least up to the point where they were going to be sterilized and they'd go through all that trauma again for no reason or trap them and take them somewhere to be euthanized as that was still happening quite a bit 20 years ago. So, no, I'm definitely for the ear tip. I mean it there, there's a reason that it's the universal symbol because you need to be able to identify these cats from a distance. You're gonna save them quite a bit of trauma by being able to do that. And somebody knows that there's a caretaker there already who's at least started, if not trapped all these cats and had them sterilized.

And, back in the, when I first started all this and the ear tipping of course was being done on the ferals, and I always thought, wouldn't it be nice if we get to the point where we can spay, neuter everything and, and there'll be a shortage of cats and there'll be a tip eared cat in every home? Because those were the only ones that were available.

I think that it just gets, again, like some people think that it hurts, and there are so many people that think that, oh, I don't wanna, I don't want my indoor cat to have a tipped ear. Almost like that means that it's a bad cat, right? Like a cat with a tipped ear. It's just a cat with a tipped ear. It doesn't mean that it's bad. And I think that that part of that problem is that people think of ear tips with ferals. They don't think about an ear tip being done in a cat that is, uh, again, a community cat, a cat that may come to you when it's time to feed, that if you're sitting outside in your patio, it comes and sits in your lap. Um, one of the things that I hear way too often is I don't want it ear tip because I know which cat that is, and then the same cat will come back. We've gotten a couple of times that somebody will say, oh yeah, you guys, you guys spayed my cat last year and it just had kittens again. It's like, no, it's not the same cat. No, no, no. I know it's the same cat because I know that cat. No, it's like you, you would be surprised how many cats you can have. We have a, we had another person that brought us a cat, um, that she said, yeah, I've had this cat all its life. And, you know, it needs to be, it needs to be spayed. And we shaved it and it had a tattoo, and then we scanned it and it had a microchip and we called in the microchip. And that's not her cat. That is somebody else's cat. Right? And she had this cat for two years thinking that this is her cat. So, ear tipping, ear tipping, ear tipping, ear tipping, please. Um, another, another concern is going to be, Trapping cats that may be pregnant. And then a lot of people get really upset about that. And I know it's like a really sensitive subject, but well, do you wanna talk about Mona, about tnr cats that are pregnant?

There are already too many kittens that are out there that, that need a rescue or a foster or to be in a home and to bring more in when you're able to prevent it is, is you just have to spay them. And I've seen too many mothers, feral mothers with their kittens, they'll fight to the death to protect those kittens, and it's just not a good life for them. They're much happier being spayed and not having to go through more litters and, and, uh, delivery and, and all that other nursing and trying to keep 'em alive, trying to take care of them. It has to be just awful for these mothers.

Yeah. Like how often do you find litters of kittens that have either injured eyes or that have problems. And then, right. I remember a litter that you brought a few years ago that it was a litter of black kittens and all the kittens had damaged eyes, and we had to take the eyes out of everybody except for one. Right? Uh, one eye, not one kitten, one eye out of eight eyes. Um, so yeah, what would you have any thoughts on that subject,

Dan? No, I agree. I mean, um, you know, I'm sure there is exceptions to every rule, but I would by and large, um, the, the way to go is to, is to spay, to spay the cat, plus you have to consider the mortality rate of kittens that live outside is, can be up to 75%. So, you know, unless you're gonna get those kittens into foster care or have them spayed and attended to immediately, as soon as they're able to be, and if they make it that long, um, you know, you're, you're taking a chance with their lives anyway.

We, we get people that'll call and say, well, I don't want you to spay this pregnant cat. She's feral. I can't touch her, but I'll trap her after the kittens are born. It's like that's, that's gonna be the worst thing in the world for that mother to have to fight to save those kittens. And you can't take this mom in if she's feral and expect her to take care of those kittens inside in a cage, and they usually get stressed, they stop nursing and then you still end up losing those kittens. You should have just spayed her before she

had them. Right, right. For any somebody that is out there that wants to learn how to trap, how to do TNR and that kind of stuff first, what are the resources available to individuals that wanna do T N R? And then how is the process of trapping, getting them fixed and releasing them? Dan, do you wanna talk about, the resources that your group offers for education?

On our website, um, in, in, in terms of training, um, we're gonna probably refer you to, to some of the national organizations, but Neighborhood Cats has outstanding resources. They have videos, they put on webinars all the time. They have a TNR handbook, which is A through Z, every step, every facet of tnr that you could think of they address in that handbook. Of course, Alley Cat Allies has all kinds of resources. Um, all those are available on the resource page in our, on our website if you wanna look at those. Um, our summit that we hold every year, we haven't done it the past couple of years because we've been virtual, but when we have the in-person summits, we always have kind of a TNR 1 0 1, uh, where we go over the, the basics of the trapping and, and returning of the cats. So, um, you know, we do offer that as well, but, um, those resources are readily available. Um, and the videos are terrific. Alley Cat Allies has what's called a feral friends network that, uh, you can punch in your zip code and then there are people that volunteer locally that they're willing to either assist physically or at least with advice on, on what to do.

And the summit, uh, can you let people know how they can get information on attending the summit?

Yeah. Um, we're still planning this year's summit. We're not sure if it's gonna, we're gonna have in person or, or virtual this year. Uh, but we should be determining that pretty soon. Um, and then probably six to eight weeks before the summit, we start promoting it. Uh, you can together the together initiative website or our Facebook page and, uh, we'll, we'll be promoting that and, you know, we'll, we'll make it clear when that's gonna be.

What would you say, Mona, to somebody that's wanting to, to start TNR or to, or to help out volunteer, you know, putting their part into it.

Usually when we get a call, it's they expect someone to come out and do the trapping. And of course, initially they usually want them to just disappear, but we explain the whole process why they are not gonna disappear. Um, we of course, don't have enough trappers to go out and help everybody, but we do have, um, traps that we loan out and we will certainly train them and hold their hand through. Pretty much the whole process, and it is intimidating when you first started. I mean, you hear that first trap close and the cat freaks out. It's very upsetting and we understand that. But almost everybody, once they do it and see how well the cat does afterwards, they're, they're on board. They take the, they take it and run with it and can do it themselves. We have 80 year old people out there sometimes that will be doing it themselves because we just don't have the volunteers to help here in central Ohio. So, um, but of course the other big problem is finding the place to get 'em spayed or neutered. Um, the, that has dwindled a lot over the last couple years in this community. So, um, you know, it, it, that's the tough part right now.

I was just gonna put in a, a plug for our, uh, Community cat resource guide. So we, we have that broken down into TNR resources, which are TNR groups that may be able to offer actually some trapping, uh, assistance, or at least the loaning of traps, if not coming out to help with trapping. And then we have spay neuter resources, so places the cats can be taken to be sterilized. So we're gonna be, I'm gonna be updating that probably this weekend. So it'll be, uh, current up to, you know, the present day, uh, as of this. This

weekend. Excellent. And we'll put that information on our website@forensics.vet. Great. Forensic VT on the resource page. So how, what should people expect? Let's say, you know, again, they're getting ready to do TNR, what is the process from the trapper's perspective?

Well, they, um, come in and borrow the traps and we, um, Help them either make appointments or tell them where they can probably go to get the cats, uh, spayed or neutered. Um, they do the trapping sometimes we'll help with transportation. Most often they do their own transportation. Um, the cats get recovered at least overnight. Um, if there was. Something, um, that needed to be monitored longer. We'll hold them as long as the vet recommends. And then, um, they are released. We do have when the weather is really bad, they, if they don't have a place to, um, recover them overnight, we can often help with that. Um, they'll drop 'em off after surgery, pick 'em back up the next day. so, you know, watching that cat leave that trap, that's the end

goal. And what would you say to people that, that are trying to get a cat to go into a trap? How should they prepare, like even days or weeks for the day of the trapping? What kind of things do they need to do to get the cat to kind of come back at the time that they need to come back? Well, the best

thing they can do is get it on a schedule, a feeding schedule, try to feed at the same time, um, every day. And then, you can, trap train them by tying the trap open so that, you start with the food close to the door, slowly move it back. And over a few days, the cat goes in and out of the trap. The trap doesn't shut on them because it's tied open. And then when it's time to trap, you let the release go and, and, um, it closes on the cat. So, you know, smelly, good, smelly, bait. but the just general, general classic trapping, uh, stuff.

And from a veterinary perspective, one big thing that I wanna tell people is leave those cats in the trap, right? There are so many people that take the cat, they, it's in the safety of the trap, and then they open it and they transfer them into a cage because they think that the cage is a nicer, better environment. Let me tell you what, that feral cat does not care if it's a cage or a trap. It's unhappy no matter what. So it is so much safer. It, it is not okay to show people the stress that the cats go through when they're in a cage because it would just, I mean, I'm sure that we would be getting calls from all sorts of people saying that we're horrible people. But when a cat, when a feral cat is in a cage, get them sedated. It's unsafe for the cat. It's unsafe for the staff. It's unsafe for everyone. Um, It is so much easier to have 'em in that trap, and then you can just pin 'em into a little corner. You poke them, they struggle very minimally, and then they can recover in that trap. So please, people leave cats in traps. Don't take 'em out of a trap and, and get them in a trap. Don't, don't just catch 'em in a. in a cage and bring 'em in. Uh, what kind of traps would you recommend that people get? Or where can people get traps? You know, if somebody wants to start getting traps on

their own? Uh, I, I'd like true catch, that's just me. Um, I know a lot of people like Tomahawk. Uh, the true, true catch has the door that falls more gently than the tomahawk trap would kind of snapshot. Um, that's what I've always used, but you know, whatever works for you is. Most important. Yeah,

those, I think those are the two big brands that, um, most trappers really like, and I agree with the, uh, the, the quiet door when the door closes. If you have several of those traps, the door closes so quietly that the cats don't jump. They just keep eating. And you can get more trap, more cats trapped, um, with those quiet traps. But you also need to, um, consider the box trap. The drop trap, not the box trap. The drop trap, um, for, for large numbers. And, and those hard to catch ones, those drop traps are lifesavers.

And, secure those traps, like when you have traps. Please. Zipties are your friends, carabiners are your friends. Yes? Uh, you know, unfortunately we have hat cats that either coming in or leaving, they just break out of the trap. The cat doesn't wanna be in the trap. And some of the, some of the traps that are made to be kicked and released, You know, it just takes somebody losing the grip on, on that trap and there goes the cat and that cat is not coming, it's not coming back anytime soon. And then making sure to cover the traps with, uh, blankets to something to just decrease the, the stress of the cat and just leave them alone. But wanted to make sure to, to share that as well. Hopefully this has been really the information for people and just kind of overall learning the importance of tnr and the process of tnr. Um, definitely, you know, you, if you're interested in, in helping community cats, you have to be active and proactive about it. You cannot expect somebody to just come in and do the work for you, and you have to be understanding of the veterinary shortage. Um, Knocking on somebody's door and saying, you gotta fix this cat, or else that's not really gonna get you anywhere. Um, but also, you know, it, it would be nice if more and more veterinarians got good at high quality, high volume sterilization. I know that we are doing a lot to train new graduates, like anything, everybody from first to fourth year, veterinary students on just having those skills so that they can get a large number of animals done in a safe manner. Because that's part of the, part of the point, high quality, high volume sterilization. It's not just numbers, is safety and quality of, of the procedure so that these animals can get, can get fixed. If we don't all work together, then nothing's gonna happen. So is there anything that you guys want to share in closing?

You know, I was gonna say, we talked briefly about population control. I just had a few numbers that I wanted to mention. we, we did a few studies not only on, you know, the shelter, new to return in combination with the T N R, but we, we looked at some T N R programs that were either run by individuals or t n r groups and, um, they ranged, um, These were over long periods of time. So not only did they achieve results with, the results with colony monitoring were sustained over a long period of time. just I'm gonna give you some percentages of the, of the declines in the populations. 300 cats were reduced to zero, so that was a hundred percent reduction over 17 years in, uh, Newburyport, Massachusetts. In Chicago, they, in a urban neighborhood. They, worked with a number of colonies between four and 10 years. They enrolled them at different times, but the average was a 54% decline in population there. Um, in the San Francisco area. over 16 years, they went from 258 cats down to one, one cat. And, uh, at the University of Central Florida, uh, Julie Levy, who I mentioned before, did a study in the early two thousands that we followed up on in, 2018. And over a 28 year period, uh, total of 204 cats, uh, on the University of Central Florida campus, were reduced to 10. So, uh, those are some pretty impressive results, um, that were sustained over a long period of time. And I'm gonna mention again in, lake County, um, in Menor, they had some numbers available. They saw a 30% decline over a two year period. So that's, uh, you know, somebody in Ohio here who has some documented success. Um, yeah, so TNR does work. Um, we talked about the benefits to the cats. the population reductions not only benefits the cats, but it benefits the communities. The people that maybe don't care for the cats or don't want the cats in their yards or on their properties, they're happy about the population reduction. And anybody who's concerned about, you know, wildlife pre predation, or any of the other issues surrounding community cats, they're happy about that as well. So, TNR can accomplish all those things.

Mona, do you have anything that you wanna share as we end this episode? Well,

I, I agree with everything Dan just said. It. The population control is, is certainly, um, the primary thing, but it also improves the quality of life for these cats. And obviously we're all cat lovers or we wouldn't even be talking about it or, or doing it, spending all our hours doing it. But, um, the quality, the of life for these cats is, uh, It's greatly improved with TNR. So it's, it's certainly a positive

thing. Yeah, we need to do more for, for the cats in our community. We need to understand that they outside is their home. They're not, they're not homeless, they are at home. So, um, thank you for what you are both doing for Community Cats in Ohio, and thank you for being here and sharing your experiences and information, uh, and let's keep working on it. Yeah. And everybody out there, thanks for joining us and thanks for caring. Thank you.

Thank you, Dr. G.