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[00:00:00] Shawna: Sleep. It's something we all do and something we all need yet. Is it something you've put much thought into? I know I only think about it when I'm not getting enough of it. Today. We get to speak to an expert to learn a little more and to normalize some of the importance of it. We'll learn how to tell if your sleep is okay and.

[00:00:22] Shawna: If we might just be having an off window or if we may need more help around it, we'll also learn some of the many things that sleep can affect. There's even a diagnostic tool you'll learn about at the end that will give you next steps to transform your sleep. I'm so glad you're here with us today.

[00:00:40] Shawna: Welcome to The Grit Show, growth on purpose. I'm glad you found us. I'm your host, Shawna Rodrigues, and I'm honored to be leading you on today's journey as part of this community growing together as seekers and thrivers. If it's your first time, I'm glad you're here. And if you're familiar with us, we would love if you take a moment and leave a review.

[00:01:01] Shawna: I love to hear what you have to say. It is so valuable to learn your perspective and what you enjoy about this show so we know what to focus on going forward. Thank you for being part of this community.

[00:01:12] Shawna: Frances Taylor is a sleep expert and fellow of the International Stress Management Association in the uk.

[00:01:20] Shawna: Frances has over 16 years of experience facilitating resilience events in diverse settings. From universities to international film studios. She was once given a tour of the James Bond studio. During her work, Frances realized that there was a missing piece when it came to people's health and wellbeing, the importance of sleep.

[00:01:40] Shawna: She came to refer to sleep as a Cinderella of good health and decided to devote herself to providing engaging and highly practical sleep programs, drawing on clinical tested approaches that work. Her therapeutic practice is based on C B T I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, the first line treatment in the uk, and also highly rated in the states.

[00:02:02] Shawna: Her online programs and one-to-one coaching show people how to sleep well, work well, and live well within just a few weeks without medication, which is just amazing. So we are so excited to have her here on The Grit Show today to talk more about this. Welcome, Frances. Thank you so much for being here.

[00:02:19] Frances: It's an absolute pleasure. Thank you very much for inviting me. I'm very much looking forward to our conversation.

[00:02:25] Shawna: Me too. For all of you guys listening, I actually hunted down Frances and found her cuz I felt sleep was a really important topic and I think her approach is something we're all gonna enjoy learning more about and her wealth of knowledge is something we're gonna gain from.

[00:02:38] Shawna: So can we start with this concept of sleep being a Cinderella? Tell us more about the importance of sleep.

[00:02:43] Frances: Yeah. Well, sleep is the Cinderella of good health if you think about it, because we kind of ignore it or we've got into the habit of becoming a little bit arrogant about sleep and thinking it's not that important.

[00:02:55] Frances: It's something we fit in when we've finished everything else. You know, so for me it was a bit like Cinderella sitting on the floor in the corner there in her little rags. We don't pay her any attention, we don't think she's important. We go about our days without really taking any notice of the good job she does for us until we wake up one morning and we find we're not sleeping well and that's when we suddenly realize that we need to pay Cinderella a bit more attention.

[00:03:20] Frances: Um, so, you know, in the, I dunno how it is in the States, but in the UK. Uh, you know, we have a lot of public health messages around diet and exercise. Uh, and if I was to ask a group of people, you know, tell me your top tips for a healthy diet, or tell me what's the recommended amount of exercise we should be doing.

[00:03:40] Frances: We kind of could all say that because we have very strong public health mess messages in the UK around, uh, diet and exercise. But when it comes to sleep, it's only really in recent years that sleep's been moving up the agenda in terms of health and wellbeing. I. And there's a lot of people out there that still get quite confused, feel quite alone, uh, when it comes to what they should be doing about sleep.

[00:04:04] Frances: Uh, you know, go on the internet and come away. Not much clearer. So really sleep is something that hasn't been given due priority and it is slowly changing. I dunno what it's like in the states, but it's slowly, slowly changing. And now over here in the UK, we are finding more businesses. Interested in providing educational sessions for their people around the importance of sleep?

[00:04:27] Frances: Certainly when I first started working back in the day, you know, when I first, uh, was working in businesses, delivering my programs around stress and resilience, we didn't even mention sleep, which to me, you know, as a professional, seems crazy. Now, you know, how did I run Sessions on Sleep and Resilience and we hardly talked about sleep.

[00:04:46] Frances: But really it was off the agenda. It was out of public consciousness. So that's why, you know, sleep is really, really important and just as important as diet and exercise for your, for your

[00:04:56] Shawna: health and wellbeing. No, definitely. I feel like it's something that we don't learn about and we like take advantage of and don't recognize.

[00:05:04] Shawna: What works and what doesn't, and we don't have any clues. And there's all a lot of myths and magic around what we think will work. And sometimes we're trying things and sometimes we aren't. And a lot of times we're just like powering through without trying to find the right solutions for ourselves.

[00:05:17] Frances: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:05:19] Frances: There are a lot of myths out there. You know, you can go on the internet, some of the advice is great, let's be fair, but some of it is either misleading or it's incomplete. There's a lot around diet and nutrition, and there's some sources that suggest if you just eat this kind of food, your sleep will magically be, you know, improved.

[00:05:38] Frances: Now while it's true that a good diet is important, isn't it, for our whole health and wellbeing, and that includes our sleep, You know, it's really the case of just eating more of a certain type of food. It's just not gonna fix your sleep. You know, you need a balanced diet, but, um, one of my favorites was, you need to eat a lot of morelo cherries.

[00:05:57] Frances: You know, there's really dark. Yeah. Well, they're not only really expensive, but I mean, the scientific evidence that they're gonna fix your sleep if you've got a serious sleeping problem. Yeah. I'm afraid it's just not there. So. You know, when I was doing my training, I was asking the lead professor, you know, what about diet?

[00:06:13] Frances: Because you hear about bananas, you hear about this and that hot, you know, warm, milky drink before bed. And he just looked at me and said, you can't eat yourself to sleep.

[00:06:22] Shawna: It's not the magic trick. Huh?

[00:06:24] Frances: It's not a magic trick. Healthy diet. Yeah, a ra, make sure you're not deficient in anything. But seriously, sleep is a little bit more complicated than just, that can be fixed by, you know, a few supplements in my opinion.

[00:06:37] Shawna: So what is, when you're trying to figure out sleep and how do you even know if you need to be worried about sleep? If you're just having a period where it's a problem, or if it's something that's, you need to stop and address it because it's becoming systemic. Like how do you know when it's a problem?

[00:06:51] Frances: Okay. There's two ways of looking at this. One of the things to think about is the role of sleep trackers and the amount of attention we pay to our apps now, you know, our wearables that tell us whether we've had a good night's sleep or not. You know, some people are reliant on those and they look at their sleep tracker in the morning and they see that it says you've had, you know, so much of this kind of sleep and you know, da, da da, da, and then they say, oh, great, I've had enough sleep.

[00:07:16] Frances: Or, oh my goodness me, my sleep's not very good. But the problem with those apps is they're really cannot be that accurate. They really can't be that accurate. They can be very rough, they can approximate, but the only way to really know what kind of sleep you are having, Is when you do a proper examination of the brain activity during sleep.

[00:07:35] Frances: So I'd say first of all, you know, be very wary of the data that's coming from your, your wearables. And then people start to obsess about hours. You know, how many hours did I have last night or only had six, therefore it can't be enough. Or I had, you know, whatever I. And I'd say the starting point is, do you wake up in the morning feeling refreshed and ready for the day ahead?

[00:07:54] Frances: And if the answer is yes, most days I do, then you are getting the right kind of sleep. You're getting the right quality and the right quantity. So that's the starting point. How do you actually feel after your sleep? Do you feel good on it? And the second thing I'd say is like, everyone has a bad night now and then, don't they?

[00:08:11] Frances: I mean, there's nobody who doesn't have the odd disturbed night. And if you're just having the odd night here and there, or maybe if something particular is going on in your life, maybe you have, you know, 2, 3, 4 nights very disturbed. That is pretty normal. You know, if it happens now and then, and if you can stay relaxed about that.

[00:08:29] Frances: You'll find that if you stay relaxed, you'll sleep will rebalance and you'll get back to sleeping well. So to kind of answer your, answer, your question, it's a problem. When it becomes a problem for you, when you start to feel that it's, uh, happening too often and when it's starting to affect your self in your daily life, you know when it's starting to worry you, when you're starting to struggle with daytime fatigue, when it's, uh, impairing the quality of your life.

[00:08:54] Frances: And for some people it's when they start sort of changing their way of being to accommodate not sleeping well enough.

[00:09:02] Shawna: Oh, that makes very good sense. That definitely works. And what about like when you wake up? Because I know that I'll have periods of time where I joke that I have had, I feel like it's during high stress where I have what I call my witching hour, like at two or 3:00 AM that I would just wake up, but it feels like it was during high stress and it would be during that time that it would go away.

[00:09:17] Shawna: Where I would just like pop right awake at two or three in the morning for periods of time. Is that something to then address and be worried about, or is that something that is as related to stress and will go away on its own? Well,

[00:09:28] Frances: it's really important to remember that waking up is completely normal, okay?

[00:09:33] Frances: Waking up is not a problem. So if I'm working with a client and I say, what would you like your sleep to look like at the end of our time together? And they say, I don't wanna wake up. I wanna sleep right through. I'll say, I'm sorry, I can't deliver that. But your body naturally wakes itself up. If you think about sleep, we go through different stages.

[00:09:50] Frances: And there are some stages where we kind of come up to the surface before we deep dive down again. And when we're coming up to the surface, there are the times when we're more likely to be disturbed by light or by noise or need to go to the bathroom, something like that. So waking up isn't usually in itself a problem.

[00:10:07] Frances: It's what happens when you wake up. And if you wake up and you can quickly get back to sleep, then that's absolutely fine. And you're right that if you're having a lot of stress in your life and you are waking up at three in the morning, for example, And your brain starts to fire up, then that's the thing that needs attention.

[00:10:24] Frances: And that's the time to sort of, uh, do what you can to calm yourself down, to remind yourself that you can deal with things in the daytime. You know, nighttime is really not the time to problem solve. So yeah, that would be a kind of an early warning sign that you need to, you know, maybe deal with the stress, but also.

[00:10:42] Frances: Learn some relaxation technique that you can use at three o'clock in the morning, whatever it is, so that you can drop back off to sleep easily. So it's

[00:10:49] Shawna: not waking up is the problem, but you do when you wake up now, you

[00:10:52] Frances: handle it ab Absolutely. It's how you approach it. I mean, people get angry, they get frustrated, they get down on the cells.

[00:11:01] Frances: You know, and in a minute you start to get crossed with yourself. Well, you know, you are not in the frame of sleep then when you're starting to get cross and angry and frustrated with yourself.

[00:11:10] Shawna: Yes. What about taking naps and people who have shift work and work at different times of day? Or if you have a child that's gotten you up at 4:00 AM or 5:00 AM or has been sick, like is it good to just catch up on sleep and try to take naps?

[00:11:23] Shawna: Like what is actually, how do you handle that?

[00:11:26] Frances: Yeah, well, naps can be really helpful. You know, as you say, if you're shift work or you're awake during the night, you're looking after, you know, somebody in your family or you've got a, a new baby in the house. Naps, you know, can be good. You know, 20 to 40 minutes is kind of a good length of time to think about.

[00:11:44] Frances: The only time I have kind of word of warning about naps is if you actually do have a sleep problem. Because one of the factors that drives our ability to feel sleepy and therefore sleep is called the sleep drive. So basically the longer you're awake, the stronger the drive for sleep, the more your body is saying We need some sleep.

[00:12:03] Frances: So obviously a nap will weaken that sleep drive. So when it comes to your normal bedtime, you won't have such a strong drive, and therefore, if you're already having sleeping problems, you may find. That it's harder to get off to sleep. Obviously there's a safety angle, so you definitely shouldn't be driving or do anything where you could be, uh, you know, at risk to yourself or others.

[00:12:26] Frances: You definitely shouldn't be doing that if you're sleepy and you definitely need to have an app if you've got a long journey and you feel short on sleep. But generally speaking, if you've got a sleep problem, Then try to avoid daytime naps. And the same goes with long lions at the weekend as well. Cuz again, if you're having trouble sleeping, what we want is a really regular routine.

[00:12:46] Frances: You're getting up and going to bed at the same time, weekdays and weekends, and you are having a strong sleep

[00:12:52] Shawna: drive. Yes. So if you do have shift work, you should, and you have an adjusted sleep time because you work from let's say 3:00 PM to midnight that you should try to always go to bed at 1:00 AM to 8:00 AM which should be when you sleep because that's when you need to adjust your time to work with

[00:13:10] Frances: your schedule.

[00:13:12] Frances: Yeah, I think shift work is a tricky one for sleep. It definitely is, and if you're on changing sleep patterns. So it's a question of working out what works for you. So some people might come off a shift, they might make themselves stay up for a bit and then they'll go to sleep, or they might go for a short sleep, wake up, do some stuff, and then go back to sleep.

[00:13:31] Frances: I mean, shift work, you do really have to think of what's best for you. It, it's not the easiest when it comes to getting regular sleep. To be honest, it's can be hard. It's a tricky

[00:13:41] Shawna: one. It's a tricky one.

[00:13:42] Frances: It's definitely a tricky

[00:13:43] Shawna: one. Yeah. And your sleeping needs change as you age, because I know that it seems that it's different.

[00:13:49] Shawna: Obviously teenagers need one thing like adults and then when you hit, like menopause and middle ages seem to changes and then I feel like my grandpa never needed to sleep. But what, how does that work?

[00:14:00] Frances: Yeah, well, yeah, you're right. Our for sleep changes through as we get older. You know, babies are classic, aren't they?

[00:14:07] Frances: They're sleeping when they're newborn. They're sleeping most of the time. And then, you know, toddlers, they need a lot of sleep and it gradually decreases. You know, for adults still there is quite a bit of variability, and I think that's important because a lot of people get hung up on, oh, I need X number of hours.

[00:14:23] Frances: But again, it comes back to how you feel. But generally adults, I think there's, the research is saying now that adults are needing something between seven and 10 hours, you know, it's quite a, a broad spectrum. And again, it's not about obsessing how many hours you need, it's just like how you feel.

[00:14:40] Frances: Teenagers are classic, aren't they? I mean, they need a lot of sleep, but their biological clocks are slightly programmed, slightly differently to adults, so they actually naturally kind of want to sleep later in the morning. This changes over time, but that's why some schools have experimented with starting later.

[00:14:56] Frances: Because their teenagers are just coming to school, but they're not ready, they're not really awake in their circadian, in their body rhythms when it comes to older people probably need a little bit less sleep, but I think it often is related to, you know, maybe if you're not working anymore, you're not as active anymore, you can dose in the day.

[00:15:13] Frances: So sleep can get a bit outta whack. Yeah, but generally speaking, older people, they still need a, you know, a reasonable amount of sleep. But it's just, they may be kind of dozing off in the arm in the afternoon perhaps, or whatever, you know, it varies. Or you said your granddad didn't seem to sleep at all?

[00:15:29] Shawna: Yes, he had, I think he said weird sleeping habits at night. He was staying crazy late. It felt like it got up early, but I think he was secretly taking naps during the day and not admitting to it. I just didn't see him during the day much.

[00:15:40] Frances: Ah, yeah, that, that might have been it

[00:15:42] Shawna: definitely. That was probably it.

[00:15:44] Shawna: And I also noticed that when I went through, so my mother was sick for some time with cancer and after I went through that period with her, That it became almost this comment for me that I now needed eight to 10 hours of sleep a night. Whereas before that I've been somebody who slept like six to seven and a half hours is all I needed, and I functioned well.

[00:16:03] Shawna: And then I don't know if it was my age or just going through that experience, but after that, like I needed eight to 10 hours of sleep a night. And for a number of years that shifted and I'm finally getting back to now needing closer to seven to eight hours and I'm fine. But for a number of years I needed that.

[00:16:18] Shawna: Does that happen when you have stressors or was it my age or just a period of time, or what do you think is, is there relations to that, that you need more sleep when you go through things or? Yeah.

[00:16:26] Frances: Yeah, I'd say so. I think that when you've got a lot on in your life, whether that's, you know, illness for yourself or your family or a bereavement or yeah, a high demand job, I think, uh, it's your body's way of making sure you get the rest and the recuperation that you need.

[00:16:41] Frances: So, I. I think it is a question of listening to your body and uh, yeah, if you've got a lot on emotionally, I think sleep can be a really good thing to help you get through that. And it's important and yeah, and, and definitely I, you know, I sleep a lot more in the winter because it's darker and I'm not doing as much.

[00:16:57] Frances: I just think it's about listening and, and not having such a rigid schedule that, you know, I know we, with work, we have to be pretty rigid at times, but it's about being flexible and listening to your body and, and adjusting as as appropriate.

[00:17:10] Shawna: So you mentioned that it's important to have a routine around sleep, and a lot of that is sleeping at the same time.

[00:17:16] Shawna: So how much do you stick to that? Do you come up with what works for you and then adjust it if you feel like you're still tired? Or how do you even start with that if you're like, you know what? I do need to be more mindful of my sleep and having a regular routine. So how do you even start? Do you just like randomly pick a time to start going to bed and getting up, or is there a way to start somewhere and then see if you're tired or not?

[00:17:35] Frances: That's a really good question. So when I first start working with someone, I'll ask them a lot about, you know, what time are they going to bed? You know, how many times do they think they're waking up during the night, and for how long? What time are they getting outta bed? And people really vary. So what I'm looking at is to get the right, obviously, I'm often resetting their sleep patterns.

[00:17:54] Frances: So for example, I worked with a teacher and he used to go to bed at eight o'clock at night. And he didn't used to have to get out of bed until seven, so he was in bed for 11 hours. And I said, why? And he said, well, because I just hope during that time I'm gonna get enough sleep, five hours sleep. What's interesting about that, Shauna, is that he's spending a whole load of time in bed because actually only getting a tiny amount of sleep.

[00:18:20] Frances: So in terms of what I call sleep efficiency, He's very low sleep efficiency. You know, it's a bit like saying I'm gonna spend all day long doing this piece of work, you know, and you spend 12 hours and you turn out a piece of work that really should have taken you a couple of hours. So, with people who are doing that, I'll say, right, you know, we're not going to be, you're not going to bed eight, we're gonna work backwards from the time you need to get up in the morning.

[00:18:45] Frances: And then we're gonna say, maybe let's try seven hours in bed. So, you know, moving the bedtime later, it is varies. It depends for everybody. But when someone's got a, a insomnia or a real sleep problem, you need to actually create a situation where they're very tired when they get into bed so tired that it kind of overrides the busy brain, overrides all their kind of fears about whether they're gonna sleep.

[00:19:10] Frances: So obviously we work together on that, but it's an important. Part of C B T I, cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. It's about adjusting bedtimes and getting up to start with. So someone's very tired and then they build their confidence because they're finding they're dropping off to sleep. They're sleeping through, and then we start saying, okay, we can expand that sleep window if you like.

[00:19:32] Frances: You can now go to bed a bit earlier, spend longer in bed. But that's kind of how you do it. But for your listeners, I'd be saying think about how many hours are you allocating for sleep. So are you in bed for at least seven hours a night? And if you are in bed for less than seven hours, then you're not allowing yourself the opportunity for a decent stretch of sleep.

[00:19:53] Frances: So kind of work backwards from when you need to get up in the morning and think about when you're going to bed. And it can be tricky, you know? It can be tricky in today's life, can't it? We're so busy. We've got work, we've got family, we've got maybe commutes to fill in household chores. Phone calls in different parts of the world, perhaps if you're working globally.

[00:20:11] Frances: You know, it's not easy. But I think that brings me back to, you know, we need to prioritize our sleep some more. We need to give it proper space and kind of proper respect.

[00:20:20] Shawna: Yes. No, that makes perfect sense. It's, it's hard to prioritize it too. So the first thing, like I, too much of my plate, what can I get rid of?

[00:20:26] Shawna: Oh, sleep. That's what's gonna go.

[00:20:29] Frances: Exactly. Yeah. And it's funny, isn't it? Because that is the last thing that should go because actually a good night's sleep sets you up to really do everything else so much better.

[00:20:39] Shawna: Oh yes. When I have stayed up late trying to finish projects, I can tell you that I'm making great progress and then it takes three hours to finish that last thing.

[00:20:47] Shawna: That should take 20 minutes cause I'm tired and not focusing and not getting it done well. So yeah, it totally doesn't help anything.

[00:20:54] Frances: You much better going to bed and getting up. Now earlier I'm

[00:20:57] Shawna: doing it. Yes. Too bad logic doesn't win.

[00:21:01] Frances: I know. But if that's when we kind of have to parent ourselves around sleep and say, right off you go, come on, it's time now.

[00:21:08] Shawna: It's time now. It definitely is. Yes. So I've been curious. I had this wonderful conversation with a friend a little while back that was actually around exercise and talking about for men and women, and maybe not men and women, maybe just he and I, and our different socialization around exercise. And for men that exercise is something you do because it's.

[00:21:26] Shawna: Fun and it's sports and this and that and that. Women always being told it's for weight loss is how this conversation started. And for me saying the first time that I took like an exercise class was in college and it coincided with the semester that I was working security. Yes, I worked security in college and if you've met me, you'd be surprised by that possibly, but I had to stay up one night a week to do a midnight to 6:00 AM shift to do security.

[00:21:49] Shawna: So when I took this step aerobics class two days a week, I was also one day a week not sleeping. And in college you just. Skipped a week of sleep, which was not a good thing. That was also when I gained my freshman 15. It wasn't the first semester. It was the second semester when I wasn't sleeping and I was exercising, which was just did not do well with the mind thing around exercise.

[00:22:10] Shawna: And when we had this conversation we're talking about. So when I clicked that, not only was the first time I did exercise and it did not equate with weight loss, they definitely equated with weight gain, but I also realized that sleep was what I was missing. So it felt to me like my body not getting.

[00:22:24] Shawna: Sleep added to weight gain for me when I was 1918 and should have, like, that should not even been an issue at that point in my life. So I have a curiosity around. Hunger hormones and weight gain and not getting sleep. And I was curious if there is something to that or if you know things about that.

[00:22:43] Frances: Well, definitely there's a couple of things there.

[00:22:45] Frances: Um, lack of sleep, as you've said, it changes the hormones that govern our appetite. So when you don't sleep, Enough, the hormone that tells you that you are full, that you've had enough to eat, actually doesn't get switched off. So we have the hunger hormone, uh, taking over if you like. So on a biological level, this is why sleep is so important because it alters our physiology, you know, lack of sleep changes.

[00:23:12] Frances: The way the body's working, not just a physical body, but also our cognitive, our mental processes. So you've got a hormone in your bloodstream that's telling you you need to eat more. And it makes sense really, because if you think you are not sleeping, then you are gonna feel fatigued. So the body's going, right, we need.

[00:23:30] Frances: We need energy. We are kind of programmed when we're fatigued like that to crave sugary stuff, quick hit stuff. So not only are we wanting to eat more because our hormones are outta whack, we're gonna want the things that give us a quick hit, a big kind of. Sugar burst, a sugar rush, you know, the biscuits, the cake, the fizzy drinks, all that kind of thing.

[00:23:51] Frances: The caffeine is, yes, the caffeine, yeah, definitely caffeine. But then what happens? That floods our system and then we crash and then we feel tired again. So off we go again on this kind of rollercoaster. I think, you know, for anyone that's wanting to exercise or you know, lose a little bit of weight or just have a healthier life, you've gotta start with the basics.

[00:24:11] Frances: And that is, Getting enough sleep because if you don't get enough sleep, it's very hard to motivate yourself to do something about your diet or you know, to do a bit more exercise or something like that. So, uh, definitely there is a physiological impact which will affect make us more prone to weight gain and obesity and diabetes impact.

[00:24:32] Frances: Because not only, you know, have I talked about the hunger hormones, but it also changes the way we store sugars in the body and completely, you know, messes up how the body manages sugars and glucose levels and all that kind of thing. So yeah, there's a big correlation between lack of sleep and appetite and weight gain.

[00:24:51] Frances: Yeah. Not for everybody.

[00:24:53] Shawna: That makes perfect sense. And it's really funny that it wasn't until this conversation, it's been a long time since I was 18, and in college you guys, but it was a conversation much later really in about exercise. I was like, wait a minute. That was also the term that I did not sleep one day a week.

[00:25:08] Shawna: So that probably added to things as well. I

[00:25:11] Frances: was working with a woman recently and she just said, you know, I had so many other health and wellbeing issues that I needed to look at, but until I saw to my sleep, I just couldn't get my head around them because it's just like one, you know, if you're, if you're short and sleep, it's struggle to get through the day, isn't it?

[00:25:25] Frances: Let alone do the stuff that we know we should be doing. The healthy stuff. You know, to be honest, you know, if you've had a bad night, it's gonna be very hard to motivate yourself to go to the gym or you know, cook a healthy dinner or something like

[00:25:36] Shawna: that. Yes. When you felt tired all the time. It's really hard to do anything.

[00:25:41] Shawna: So,

[00:25:41] Frances: yeah. It's very miserable. It's, I think that's the other thing that we shouldn't underestimate how miserable lack of sleep makes people. I think there's, uh, been a lack of understanding and maybe some empathy. You know, people talk about not sleeping well and people just go, oh yeah, poor you kind of thing.

[00:25:58] Frances: But they don't really always take it that seriously. But, you know, I've spoken to people who are absolutely desperate on their last, on their knees because they're not sleeping, and their whole life is such a struggle. You know, people stop going on holiday, they stop, you know, their relationships are in trouble, their work's in trouble.

[00:26:17] Frances: You know, they feel bad about themselves. So, you know, it can really affect your mental wellbeing when you don't sleep well. And uh, yeah, definitely we need to be empathetic for people that are having sleeping problems.

[00:26:29] Shawna: No, that's absolutely, that's very, very key and very important. And that's something for me.

[00:26:34] Shawna: I've talked a little bit about some of my history on my show a little bit, but one of the, when I finally got the right combination after I went through a really hard time, which is when I, this show was named during that time when I was going through a difficult time and the, actually the per the medication they put me on was something for P T S D that actually helped me sleep.

[00:26:52] Shawna: And the first time I took it, I actually slept for like, 14 hours or something the first time that I took it. And that got my sleep regulated because I've been having the bad dreams have been waking me up. And that's part of like what had been part of the problem. And that really was what helped me get on the train to getting life like kind of back to regulated and back to good place was that that medication that helped me sleep, which was so interesting that I would not have thought that my sleep was part of what was going on for me at all, like with all the things that I was trying to figure out.

[00:27:23] Shawna: And so, as much as having. Working with someone like you without needing medication and doing all those things, like I definitely have specific circumstances, but it surprised me how much sleep was part of what I needed to actually function.

[00:27:37] Frances: It's absolutely part of everything, and when we don't sleep well enough, our brain cells don't connect in the same way, you know, so the neurons in the brain aren't connecting, aren't communicating as well.

[00:27:48] Frances: That's why you get kind of emotional about stuff. You get angry quicker than you might have done. You become irrational. Your judgment is not as good as it used to be. You know, it's not just you feel rotten after poor sleep. Your brain function as well as your body is all kind of, you know, thrown into a different confusion really.

[00:28:09] Frances: Uh, makes life very hard. You know, I mean, brain fog and forgetting people's names and forgetting key facts and opening a mouth and the word doesn't come out, you know? I mean, we all have this from time to time, but, you know, sleep definitely makes it a lot worse. Yes. Talk to

[00:28:25] Shawna: any new mom who's been

[00:28:28] Frances: Oh, absolutely.

[00:28:29] Frances: They're on another planet. I remember being like that when I was with my newborn. I couldn't re remember the price of a loaf of bread. It was like, how much do I need?

[00:28:40] Shawna: Yes, exactly. So yes, to have that and that's fortunately a temporary situation that shifts the bed is definitely something that they need that, that support around when they're going through that as well.

[00:28:49] Shawna: It's kind of for

[00:28:50] Frances: a good reason, isn't it? When you've got a newborn, you kind of, I mean, it can be pretty desperate, but there is a good result. There is a good reason behind

[00:28:57] Shawna: it. Yes, exactly. But it's definitely something that we definitely know people have experienced. We definitely experienced ourselves at some point in time that it's definitely good to kind of recognize when it's temporary and when it's not temporary, to be able to get the supports to kind of get it back in line cuz it affects so many things.

[00:29:14] Frances: Yeah, I would say, you know, I've worked with people who say their sleep was fine until they had a baby, and their children might be quite old, they might be teenagers, but their sleep never got back on track, you know, so that's the other interesting thing about sleep is that you can have something that upsets your sleep and kind of triggers your sleeping problem.

[00:29:32] Frances: But then you find that even when that's resolved, your sleep problem continues. So what's interesting really is not always the trigger. I mean that's interesting and can be important, but it's like how you're perpetuating this poor sleep habit. What are your thoughts around sleep? What are your behaviors around sleep that are actually maintaining a poor sleep habit?

[00:29:53] Frances: And that's where we come back to the cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, because we're looking at the cognitions, the thought processes. Your mental attitude toward sleep, but also a lot of your behaviors, and then having to kind of analyze all those, reset them so they produce good sleep rather than disturb sleep.

[00:30:11] Frances: Yes. And that's

[00:30:12] Shawna: why I think this conversation is so valuable and so important because people don't talk about it and people dismiss it and think that, and they feel isolated in it. So when they are having these sick disturbances, they do stay awake and think, oh my gosh, I woke up. What does this mean?

[00:30:27] Shawna: Like this is probably a problem. It's probably me and I'm not gonna able to go back to sleep, so I guess I should just get up and I should start reading and I should go do in the other room and, and then they start making it a problem instead of waking up like, oh, this is normal. I wake up and if I just calm my mind and think about going back to sleep and now this is normal, it's not gonna be a problem for the rest of the month and the week and the rest of my life.

[00:30:49] Shawna: It bills, instead of having this be like, oh no, I just talked to my friend. She wakes up at night too, and it's not a big

[00:30:54] Frances: deal. Absolutely, cuz that's what happens. You get a big shift in mindset, you know, dunno whether you've heard of this, but people, they don't look forward to going to bed. I love going to bed.

[00:31:02] Frances: I'm a really good sleeper. Sleep was really important in my family. I'm one of four, so my mom had four daughters all quite close together, so she was strict about our sleep. It was like in bed, lights out. You do not disturb me now until the morning. And lots of sleep was very important in our family. You know, it was like, Considered not the done thing to wake someone up if they were having a nice sleep.

[00:31:23] Frances: You know, it was kind of given quite a high status, you know, so when I first started learning about people that don't sleep well, I was like, oh, this is just such an uncomfortable, horrible thing to live with. You know, thank my mother really for bringing us up to know that sleep is really, really important and.

[00:31:39] Frances: For her, it was essential. Otherwise, I don't think she should've go with us all, you know? But yeah. So you get that mind shift where instead of looking forward to going to bed, you start to dread it, you know? And people stay up later, they snooze on the sofa, but the minute they get to bed, they wake up, they watch another episode of Netflix.

[00:31:56] Frances: Anything, rather than face that moment when they realize or they feel that they, they're not gonna sleep, you know?

[00:32:02] Shawna: Yes. Well, I think there's an element too of our busy world when your prayer means so much in that there's this thing at the end of the night, at least for me, and maybe it's just me, that when I am doing too much.

[00:32:17] Shawna: It's not for me during the day that at the end of the night I'm kind of like, what is not time for bed yet? I haven't taken care of me, I haven't done my things. And instead of doing things just for me or things that I enjoy, I like punish myself by not falling asleep or not going to bed. So it was like the day can't end yet.

[00:32:34] Shawna: Cause I haven't had Shauna time yet. And so then instead of having Shauna time, I just like don't go to bed and then I'm tired the next day because I didn't just go to bed. So I think that there's like an element with our really busy lives and busy world that, and working from home for people that work from home and haven't gotten that change of scenery, that it makes it harder to go to bed.

[00:32:52] Shawna: I feel like that like plays in for some people too.

[00:32:55] Frances: Absolutely. So, right, and I think, yeah, I hear that a lot. Like, you know, when the kids are in bed, maybe your other half has gone to bed and you've got that piece in the house. It's very precious and I really understand that and I think it would be about, okay, you just need to kind of look at your schedule and see whether you can move that me time to a little bit earlier and, and make some compromises around that.

[00:33:16] Frances: But I think that's right. Our lives are so busy, we kind of go full pelt through the day, get through the evening, do all the chores and stuff, and then it's like, ah, at last. But we really need to think about, you know, how we run our whole lives. So for me, often I'm not just looking at how somebody is, once they get into bed, I'm like, okay, tell me about your day.

[00:33:35] Frances: Tell me about your morning. Tell me about, you know, do you have lunch? You know, or do you skip lunch? You know, when do you stop answering work? Emails and that kind of thing. What kind of boundaries you've got around your work? What kind of container are you putting around work? Because as you say, people are working from home so much, especially, I dunno what it's like in the States, but lots of people now work at home in the UK and uh, they're logging back on, they have their dinner, then they're going back up to their offices and logging back on cause they can.

[00:34:01] Frances: So I think, kind of think in the old days when we all had to go into an office, it, you know, a, a work thought would pop into your mind, but there wasn't much you could do about it. But now you go back on and you can, you know, work. So we kind of have lost that ability to say, right, no, that needs to wait till tomorrow.

[00:34:18] Shawna: Yes. I still remember like when I was refusing to put email on my phone and like was like, this is why would I want email on my phone? Why would I want to get email on my phone? And I remember that perspective. And then when I finally crossed that line, and now there's just like no going back. You can't not have email on your phone, but why do we have email on our phone?

[00:34:37] Shawna: Why do we have constant accessibility? Like whose idea was that?

[00:34:42] Frances: I know it's a crazy idea. Certainly it wasn't sleep's idea. I mean, it's just because now we have to respond to everything so fast. I mean, order something we expected to rock up the next day and it's like we've got into this culture where everything has to happen now and yet, and it's very convenient, isn't it, to order something on Amazon and it arrives the next day.

[00:35:00] Frances: But we can't run our working life like Amazon. Well, we haven't got that level of support. We need to look after ourselves more, you know? So, A big thing is, you know, I mean so many people use the phone for their alarm. So you should set your alarm on your phone and then put it outta sight, outta reach, and you know, put it not by the bed.

[00:35:21] Frances: Don't clock watch, don't check emails at night. Have a proper cutoff time. And even if you're scrolling social media and it's. Nice stuff. It, it'll engage you and get you going again, won't it? You know, it's activated brain. It's not relaxing to scroll, you know, because you're flicking through so much information.

[00:35:39] Shawna: Yes. I finally got one of those clocks that actually the light starts coming on slowly, like 15 minutes before the alarm, and it actually has nature stands and the ocean is the alarm. I love it. It makes me so happy to wake up to that in the morning. So that is my, that was like the best investment that I ever made cuz it was one of those, get the phone away from a little further away from me on the, in the nightstand, put on the dresser.

[00:36:04] Shawna: And so that is what's on my nightstand, is that, and that is the best way to wake up. I'd

[00:36:08] Frances: recommend that. I'd recommend getting a different kind of alarm, an old-fashioned alarm clock or what the kind of, um, light and sound is beautiful that you've described. But definitely don't have your phone anywhere near you when you're relaxing in the evening and when you are, definitely when you're in bed.

[00:36:24] Frances: Just because we can answer email doesn't mean to say we should.

[00:36:27] Shawna: Yes, yes. And this is what those do. As I say, now that I do, I'm working on it, you guys. So

[00:36:32] Frances: sometimes I get into a bad habit and my phone goes up to bed with me, and then I really regret it because the first thing I do in the morning, if I'm, if I'm in one of those.

[00:36:40] Frances: Bad phases is I check my social and it's just like, oh, I wish I hadn't bothered, not thought I didn't need to, you know, not that early. Yes,

[00:36:48] Shawna: yes, exactly. And I do that most every single morning and I try to go that habit and I haven't kicked it yet. So hopefully one day soon I will kick that and I'll brag on here once I do, but I have not

[00:36:58] Frances: done it yet.

[00:36:59] Frances: Let me know when you've done that bit.

[00:37:01] Shawna: Yes. So this is a great way to segue into our self-care spotlight, is what we call it. I wanna change it to like self maintenance or life maintenance. Cause I've decided that it's actually maintenance, like car maintenance, it's necessary and self-care is making it too soft and not giving enough of emphasis.

[00:37:18] Shawna: But I haven't come up with a, a quicky way to say it yet. So we're still calling it the self-care spotlight. So what do you do to take care of yourself on a regular basis, just to help prime the minds of our audience of different ways people take care of themselves and remind them to think about it too?

[00:37:32] Frances: Yeah. Well, I have my phone on silent most of the time, apart from if I know I need a work call. I definitely, most times am successful in leaving my phone downstairs when I go upstairs to bed. I'm a big one for kind of pacing myself through the day, so taking lots of little breaks. So I find sitting down and being on a computer quite tiring after a while.

[00:37:57] Frances: So if I've been working on something for an hour, 90 minutes, then I'll schedule in a break and I'll go downstairs. I am lucky. I work from home and I am lucky. I've got a nice garden. I'll take my cup of tea or cup of coffee into the garden, so lots of little breaks through the day. I actually find that if I'm sit still all day long, I end up quite stiff and.

[00:38:16] Frances: You know, uncomfortable. So definitely, um, moving, changing the scenery as you've mentioned. I'm a big one for, I suppose, you know, I have learned that if I wake up in the night and I do, and some nights I do find it a bit hard to get back to sleep for whatever reason, but I'm a big one for doing a breathing exercise.

[00:38:35] Frances: So, you know, I'll definitely kind of give myself a little bit of a, talking to like, right Frances, this is not the time to be thinking about this. You know, you know at night everything's looms much larger. Your brain isn't in the right place to solve problems, so just start counting your breath. So I do a really simple counting breath exercise.

[00:38:53] Frances: So I think for me, it's not like one big thing. Like I don't do mindfulness for an hour or anything. I just try and do lots of little things through the day that kind of just take my stress levels down a notch or help my body to move a bit. Um, practical stuff and if I'm tired and I wanna sleep, I sleep, that comes easily to me.

[00:39:11] Frances: But yeah, combination, try and get some daylight every day, even if it's just 5, 10, 10 minutes in the garden. So I'm a big thing of do lots of little things that just help you rebalance throughout the day. Don't leave at all till the evening. So like after this, I've had quite a long day. It's um, nearly five o'clock in the UK and I've had a lot of calls today and after this.

[00:39:32] Frances: It is very tempting, isn't it, to just sit on the sofa, maybe have a glass of wine, but I'm not, I'm gonna go for a walk and I know it's gonna be an effort. It's gonna be an effort to make myself go for a walk cuz I don't really, you know, I feel tired maybe, but I'm gonna go for it. Cause I know afterwards I'm gonna feel better.

[00:39:46] Frances: Sort of taking yourself in hand, I think.

[00:39:49] Shawna: Yes. That sounds wonderful. Good plan. So for each of our guests, as a thank you for giving us your time and your wisdom, we actually give each of our guests one of our coloring books. We have a series of coloring books called The Color of Grit, that is, um, representative of of self care and for doing something, take care of yourself.

[00:40:07] Shawna: So we have the Magnificent Ocean Vintage, were made in Magnificent Ocean, or you've got this, which is sane. So which one can I send you a copy

[00:40:15] Frances: of? I would love the ocean because I absolutely love the sea. That's so interesting. You know, because when we're talking about kind of relaxing for sleep, one of the best things to do is to do something nice and quiet.

[00:40:26] Frances: Like, um, using a k doing a coloring book or something. Cause it's, it's kind of turned your brain into a nice, relaxed place. So I'll definitely be doing that when I wanna relax. Thank you so much.

[00:40:37] Shawna: Yay. That's wonderful. Well, good. I'm excited that you'll use that and that you'll get that. So we'll get that sent off to you.

[00:40:43] Shawna: And the other thing we do for our audience is we do what we call Grit wit, which is just something actionable and small that they can kinda apply from our conversation on this topic that's they can put into life immediately and is very bite size and applicable. Do you have something that our audience can walk away with like that?

[00:40:58] Shawna: Definitely,

[00:40:59] Frances: I would say, just ask yourself the question, how high up your priority list is your sleep? You know, on a scale of one to 10, where is it? Where are you? Not just where you think it should be, but where is it actually in your life? You know, where does it come? Is it coming at the bottom when everything else is done?

[00:41:15] Frances: And then I'd ask yourself, what's the one thing that you could do just to move it up one notch? Not to kind of completely elevate it to the top, but is there one simple thing, maybe something we've talked about today that you could do? So the kind of things I mean would be, could you decide to get into bed half an hour earlier so you've got a little bit longer to enjoy sleep?

[00:41:37] Frances: Could you decide maybe to go for a walk after work? Could you maybe decide that you're gonna knock off the caffeine, you know, a little bit earlier, so you're not kind of dealing with that when you're trying to relax? Could you decide that you are gonna have a nice, quiet wind down in the hour before bed, you know, your me time, and you're gonna put your phone outta sight and out of reach.

[00:41:58] Frances: So just one practical little thing that you could do to move your uh, sleep up one priority level.

[00:42:05] Shawna: Oh, I love that. That sounds great. So if you're listening, just try to figure out where it is on that list, and then one way to move it up just a little bit higher. That sounds like a wonderful plan. And you also have a quiz of sorts that people can take on your website to help them kinda evaluate where they're at with their sleep.

[00:42:20] Shawna: Is that right?

[00:42:21] Frances: Absolutely. I've got. Regain control of your sleep. It's, I call it diagnostic, and it is because you simply answer a few questions. They're about different aspects of your sleep. They include your sleep behaviors and your sleep kind of psychology if you like, how you think about sleep. And then when you've completed it, it's all online.

[00:42:38] Frances: You'll get, uh, feedback a about which areas of your sleep might need some improvement, and then some practical strategies. So if you are interested in moving your sleep up one priority level, that will be a great place to start. And just choose one of the things that's recommended to you that I'll recommend to you, and then you can implement that.

[00:42:55] Frances: So, uh, yeah, that would be great. I think people would enjoy that. Perfect.

[00:43:00] Shawna: Yes. I'll have that link within the show notes, so wherever you're listening, just go to the show notes and you can follow that link to be able to fill that out. And then you have a website so people can get to know you more and more of what you do.

[00:43:09] Shawna: Right.

[00:43:10] Frances: Yeah, there's a website that I'm sure you'll put in the notes and there you'll find more information and blogs and I've got an online course and there's an opportunity to book a call with me. So lots of different levels of support or help or information, whichever, wherever you are really with your sleep.

[00:43:29] Shawna: Wonderful. And sleep well.today. Is that the right website? Sleep well.today. Yeah, wonderful. And then Frances is also on LinkedIn. That's how I discovered her and that's a good way for you guys to be able to find her as well. And we'll have that link in the show notes. So thank you so much for being here, Frances.

[00:43:45] Shawna: I feel like you've given us a wealth of information and really helped the audience a lot. So thank you so much.

[00:43:50] Frances: It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me to be your guest. Yes,

[00:43:55] Shawna: thank you.

[00:43:58] Shawna: Thanks again for being here. It's so great to spend this time with all of you. I just wanna take a minute and read to you some of the fantastic reviews that folks have been leaving us online. Again, if you're on Spotify, you're able to give us a rating, which we very much appreciate. You're welcome to send us notes about what you think of the show.

[00:44:17] Shawna: You can put reviews on Facebook. We also appreciate that. Or if you go onto Apple Podcasts, they have a place for you to leave reviews there, and I'm gonna read you a couple of those, but I really appreciate them. We have one that says I'm in love with this show. It's funny, witty, encouraging, and educational.

[00:44:36] Shawna: Thank you for that. You have another that says, thank you for sharing your gift. The discussion in love languages was really fun. We use this in our family, even with our eight year old son. That's incredible. That applies so much for kids, and I'm glad it's being used in your family. Another one of them.

[00:44:52] Shawna: Truly fantastic podcast that is sure to gain a ton of momentum. Every episode is engaging, gritty and full of purposeful guests. That is awesome. Another says, so glad I found this show. Super helpful topics. Thank you so much for taking the time to leave your words. We appreciate it. We love hearing from you, and we appreciate the support.

[00:45:12] Shawna: A lot of love and effort goes into this and it's nice to get feedback that you guys are enjoying it. So take a moment, send us a DM or put a post up for us on one of those outlets. We love to hear from you. I hope your week continues to go. Wonderful. And Case no has told you lately, you're the only one of you that this world has got, and that means something.