1 00:00:07,019 --> 00:00:10,559 Welcome to episode 36 of the web joy podcast. 2 00:00:10,799 --> 00:00:11,879 I'm your host Eddie. 3 00:00:12,179 --> 00:00:16,109 And in this podcast, we interview guests about their origin story and 4 00:00:16,109 --> 00:00:20,489 what makes them excited and joyful to be part of the tech community. 5 00:00:20,969 --> 00:00:22,589 I hope you enjoy today's episode. 6 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:26,639 I left the coding bootcamp a week into it with Clifford Fajardo. 7 00:00:28,207 --> 00:00:31,477 Eddie: Welcome to another episode of Web Joy. 8 00:00:31,627 --> 00:00:34,477 I'm excited today to have Clifford with us. 9 00:00:34,477 --> 00:00:35,047 Clifford. 10 00:00:35,047 --> 00:00:35,977 Hey, how you doing? 11 00:00:36,127 --> 00:00:36,607 Hey, 12 00:00:37,027 --> 00:00:37,957 Clifford: I'm doing great. 13 00:00:38,347 --> 00:00:39,037 So 14 00:00:39,067 --> 00:00:42,127 Eddie: if you don't mind, let's just start out with you sharing who you 15 00:00:42,127 --> 00:00:44,257 are, what you do, where you work. 16 00:00:44,317 --> 00:00:46,657 You know, a brief intro so people can get to know you. 17 00:00:47,097 --> 00:00:47,607 I'm Clifford 18 00:00:47,997 --> 00:00:48,357 Clifford: Fado. 19 00:00:48,657 --> 00:00:51,177 I'm based in the San Francisco Bay Area. 20 00:00:51,507 --> 00:00:54,237 I'm Nicaraguan American, so I speak Spanish. 21 00:00:54,237 --> 00:00:56,487 My family's from Nicaragua. 22 00:00:56,817 --> 00:00:58,437 Fun fact, I have a twin brother. 23 00:00:59,037 --> 00:01:05,157 Currently I work at LinkedIn and I work primarily on the web building, 24 00:01:05,187 --> 00:01:08,127 web UIs on an infrastructure team. 25 00:01:08,127 --> 00:01:13,317 So it's really an environment like no other that I've, uh, had in the past. 26 00:01:13,317 --> 00:01:13,347 I. 27 00:01:14,032 --> 00:01:18,322 Few different roles in, in, at different companies and been really 28 00:01:18,322 --> 00:01:20,542 enjoying my time, uh, at LinkedIn. 29 00:01:20,547 --> 00:01:23,212 So that's, uh, the quick high level overview. 30 00:01:23,332 --> 00:01:26,602 Eddie: So are you working backend or front end 31 00:01:26,662 --> 00:01:27,352 Clifford: infrastructure? 32 00:01:27,712 --> 00:01:32,752 Primarily doing front end helping power infrastructure and experience 33 00:01:32,752 --> 00:01:34,252 so closely collaborating. 34 00:01:34,902 --> 00:01:38,952 With backend engineers and making people more productive with their 35 00:01:38,952 --> 00:01:41,322 tools and, and infrastructure. 36 00:01:41,502 --> 00:01:42,522 Eddie: That's very cool. 37 00:01:42,612 --> 00:01:42,822 Yeah. 38 00:01:42,827 --> 00:01:49,212 I actually lead a, um, internal front end developer tools team as well at Glassdoor. 39 00:01:49,212 --> 00:01:49,512 So. 40 00:01:49,752 --> 00:01:50,052 Nice. 41 00:01:50,112 --> 00:01:50,502 It's cool. 42 00:01:50,502 --> 00:01:52,182 We're kind of on similar teams. 43 00:01:52,792 --> 00:01:53,282 . Clifford: Yeah. 44 00:01:53,562 --> 00:01:56,142 Front end tooling infrastructure. 45 00:01:56,142 --> 00:01:57,432 I love that stuff as well. 46 00:01:57,432 --> 00:02:01,562 So there's so many new tools as you, you can imagine, libraries f. 47 00:02:02,147 --> 00:02:04,017 Uh, it never stopped , so 48 00:02:04,657 --> 00:02:06,007 Eddie: Yeah, absolutely. 49 00:02:06,127 --> 00:02:08,767 That seems like a pretty exciting job, right? 50 00:02:08,767 --> 00:02:11,437 Working on front end tooling at LinkedIn. 51 00:02:11,437 --> 00:02:12,457 How'd you get there? 52 00:02:12,462 --> 00:02:12,757 Right? 53 00:02:12,757 --> 00:02:18,127 What first kind of got you interested in doing technology and what did 54 00:02:18,127 --> 00:02:19,837 that journey kind of look like? 55 00:02:19,842 --> 00:02:24,697 Going from get starting to working at tech to working at a pretty 56 00:02:24,697 --> 00:02:26,077 well known company like Linked. 57 00:02:26,712 --> 00:02:27,012 My 58 00:02:27,012 --> 00:02:31,242 Clifford: development journey started halfway in college. 59 00:02:31,242 --> 00:02:35,122 So, uh, third year of second or third year of college I was actually 60 00:02:35,127 --> 00:02:39,222 studying in the social sciences, sociology, political science. 61 00:02:39,227 --> 00:02:43,252 I thought that was, That was what I was interested in the time and had 62 00:02:43,257 --> 00:02:47,692 aspirations maybe to be a lawyer, work in the government, mostly around, 63 00:02:47,722 --> 00:02:51,382 uh, helping others at some sort of social enterprise to help others. 64 00:02:51,712 --> 00:02:56,722 And then during December break, I remember I just had free time. 65 00:02:56,722 --> 00:02:59,872 You know, you're in school, you have a December break at the end of the year. 66 00:03:00,457 --> 00:03:01,237 Time to relax. 67 00:03:01,237 --> 00:03:03,547 And I stumbled upon code academy.com. 68 00:03:03,997 --> 00:03:08,347 So Code Academy, if you don't know, is a website that teaches you how 69 00:03:08,347 --> 00:03:09,967 to code for free in your browser. 70 00:03:10,267 --> 00:03:14,467 And once I started fiddling around with what, at the time I didn't 71 00:03:14,467 --> 00:03:18,427 know was web development, I really got hooked seeing what I could. 72 00:03:18,787 --> 00:03:21,667 These codes at the time, like how I could tweak them and it would 73 00:03:21,667 --> 00:03:22,957 make things appear on the screen. 74 00:03:23,077 --> 00:03:27,607 I, I got hooked and I realized it was something to really pursue and, and it 75 00:03:27,607 --> 00:03:32,227 was a passion of mine when I sat down one time for five or six hours and 76 00:03:32,227 --> 00:03:36,847 hadn't noticed time fly by so fast, and even though I was struggling to 77 00:03:36,847 --> 00:03:38,357 try to understand what was happening. 78 00:03:39,022 --> 00:03:44,572 I still was hungry to come back and do more of this coding and I just kept at it. 79 00:03:44,992 --> 00:03:49,012 So that was something I was learning on the side in college, eventually 80 00:03:49,132 --> 00:03:53,122 Googling and, and trying to find out, you know, can you make a career or out 81 00:03:53,122 --> 00:03:57,202 of this thing that I just discovered, I found out about coding boot camps. 82 00:03:57,712 --> 00:04:03,442 Coding bootcamps in 2015 were starting to become, it was still not as popular 83 00:04:03,442 --> 00:04:07,312 as today, but it was starting to come up and enough people had done them. 84 00:04:07,312 --> 00:04:12,142 That gave me the confidence to, to see that you can go to a coding bootcamp and 85 00:04:12,147 --> 00:04:16,372 then eventually land a really awesome job and, and start working in the industry. 86 00:04:16,372 --> 00:04:18,712 So, yeah, that's what I ended up doing. 87 00:04:18,712 --> 00:04:19,972 Learning on the side. 88 00:04:20,852 --> 00:04:24,882 Interestingly, uh, my plan was to go to a four year and transfer and, 89 00:04:24,992 --> 00:04:26,502 and complete my four year degree. 90 00:04:26,652 --> 00:04:31,212 I, I did two years, but instead of completing my, my four years and having 91 00:04:31,212 --> 00:04:36,222 to switch my major, I decided to go to a coding bootcamp and I went to Hack 92 00:04:36,222 --> 00:04:38,802 Reactor in the San Francisco Bay area. 93 00:04:39,212 --> 00:04:42,932 It was very challenging and I feel like I have to be transparent for the learners. 94 00:04:42,932 --> 00:04:48,152 I thought that the program was difficult and it's gotten, it's, it's always been 95 00:04:48,152 --> 00:04:52,562 a good program, but at the time being, what was I, 20 years old, 21 years old, 96 00:04:52,562 --> 00:04:56,942 I, I was unsure if I could, I could pass the coding bootcamp and I actually 97 00:04:57,362 --> 00:05:02,462 was having, you know, cold feet and I left the coding boot camps a week into 98 00:05:02,462 --> 00:05:04,382 it cuz I felt like I, it was too much. 99 00:05:04,382 --> 00:05:07,022 And how, how am I supposed to get a job after three months? 100 00:05:07,022 --> 00:05:07,112 You. 101 00:05:07,837 --> 00:05:12,037 And fortunately the people at the coding boot camp were so nice and 102 00:05:12,042 --> 00:05:16,537 amazing that they actually reached out to me a few weeks later and they 103 00:05:16,542 --> 00:05:22,147 asked me if I wanted to talk and maybe reconsider joining the next cohort. 104 00:05:22,447 --> 00:05:25,512 And they supported me all the way, and that's, Literally that 105 00:05:25,512 --> 00:05:28,962 changed my life going through a, a coding bootcamp, financially, 106 00:05:29,022 --> 00:05:31,602 career wise, and just personally. 107 00:05:31,602 --> 00:05:36,312 So, uh, I broke into the industry after, uh, coding bootcamp and 108 00:05:36,612 --> 00:05:38,652 landed at Salesforce in my first job. 109 00:05:38,882 --> 00:05:39,302 Eddie: Wow. 110 00:05:39,672 --> 00:05:40,392 That's amazing. 111 00:05:40,397 --> 00:05:43,362 I love that they reached out to you, you know what I mean? 112 00:05:43,362 --> 00:05:47,112 Like they saw that you'd left and they're like, okay, let's check in with this 113 00:05:47,112 --> 00:05:50,027 guy and see like, He needs something. 114 00:05:50,027 --> 00:05:53,357 You know, I think that is just amazing. 115 00:05:53,357 --> 00:05:58,157 And then that they actually, like you decided to give it a second shot and 116 00:05:58,162 --> 00:06:02,387 now you know the trajectory that has taken your life on that is awesome. 117 00:06:02,657 --> 00:06:02,837 When 118 00:06:02,837 --> 00:06:06,437 Clifford: I landed at Salesforce, I, so I'm at LinkedIn now, so 119 00:06:06,442 --> 00:06:08,257 Salesforce was my first job and. 120 00:06:08,677 --> 00:06:12,307 I've been all my roles primarily doing web engineering. 121 00:06:12,787 --> 00:06:14,167 Uh, front end and ui. 122 00:06:14,527 --> 00:06:17,377 A recruiter reached out to me, which was completely new. 123 00:06:17,467 --> 00:06:20,228 As you, as you can imagine, everybody else who joins the industry the 124 00:06:20,233 --> 00:06:23,827 first time, you get a weird reaction when the first a recruiter reaches 125 00:06:23,827 --> 00:06:26,437 out to you and you've only been at a job for a short amount of time. 126 00:06:27,002 --> 00:06:28,142 I was like, what the heck? 127 00:06:28,142 --> 00:06:28,502 Why? 128 00:06:28,622 --> 00:06:33,482 Why are they contacting me , and I've only been here three and a half months, like 129 00:06:34,202 --> 00:06:35,702 It was just completely odd to me. 130 00:06:36,062 --> 00:06:38,432 Long story short, LinkedIn reached out to me. 131 00:06:38,432 --> 00:06:40,562 It's a company that I always wanted to work at. 132 00:06:40,862 --> 00:06:44,492 I interviewed with them like the first time I didn't get 133 00:06:44,492 --> 00:06:45,992 in, I felt like I was close. 134 00:06:46,232 --> 00:06:48,512 A year later, the same recruiter reached out to me. 135 00:06:48,512 --> 00:06:52,517 I didn't reach out to them, but they were like, Hey, maybe you've, You 136 00:06:52,517 --> 00:06:54,137 know, want, you wanna reconsider. 137 00:06:54,137 --> 00:06:58,457 And I landed at LinkedIn the second time they, they interviewed me. 138 00:06:58,457 --> 00:07:01,247 So a lot of these things are very unexpected. 139 00:07:01,247 --> 00:07:06,077 I wasn't necessarily planning to target these, these companies 140 00:07:06,377 --> 00:07:07,997 and it turned out like that some. 141 00:07:08,207 --> 00:07:11,447 And even on Twitter, I've had the opportunity, just me being active 142 00:07:11,447 --> 00:07:12,887 on Twitter, following people. 143 00:07:13,187 --> 00:07:16,307 The tip I give people is be open to opportunities. 144 00:07:16,307 --> 00:07:17,267 Just be curious. 145 00:07:17,267 --> 00:07:17,877 I've actually. 146 00:07:18,362 --> 00:07:22,082 Interviews that came out of just talking with people on Twitter, 147 00:07:22,352 --> 00:07:25,412 recruiters that have seen me on Twitter and stuff like that. 148 00:07:25,412 --> 00:07:26,462 Eddie: That's awesome. 149 00:07:26,552 --> 00:07:30,992 So I guess what was like that, like for you, right, going through the first 150 00:07:30,992 --> 00:07:36,122 interview process and not making it, which we all do that so many times, 151 00:07:36,122 --> 00:07:41,472 but I feel like most of the time people don't try to go back to the same company. 152 00:07:41,472 --> 00:07:41,952 Right. 153 00:07:42,452 --> 00:07:45,842 So what was that like for you the second time, going through the 154 00:07:46,112 --> 00:07:50,042 interview process, kind of knowing, hey, like I've been here before. 155 00:07:50,407 --> 00:07:53,977 and I didn't make it last time, but also hopefully, I don't know. 156 00:07:53,977 --> 00:07:57,997 Was the interview process kind of similar or like did it feel less nerve wracking? 157 00:07:57,997 --> 00:07:58,237 I don't know. 158 00:07:58,237 --> 00:08:00,667 What was like that like for you before I talk 159 00:08:00,667 --> 00:08:06,607 Clifford: about the second time, I did feel devastated after I didn't 160 00:08:06,612 --> 00:08:10,207 pass the interview the first time because I was, I went to the office. 161 00:08:10,802 --> 00:08:13,562 I was like, oh my gosh, this place looks like, uh, Willy Wonka 162 00:08:13,562 --> 00:08:18,182 land , you know, and the people were so nice and, and all of that stuff. 163 00:08:18,182 --> 00:08:23,312 And I did feel like I was close, you know, so it felt graspable. 164 00:08:23,402 --> 00:08:26,882 So when I didn't get it, I, it did, it was a blow a little bit. 165 00:08:26,882 --> 00:08:29,462 But at the same time, I remember that experience. 166 00:08:29,882 --> 00:08:34,172 What it caused me to do is think about there's room for improvement 167 00:08:34,172 --> 00:08:35,972 for me to become a better engineer. 168 00:08:35,972 --> 00:08:40,322 There's a lot of concepts that these people expose me to, 169 00:08:40,712 --> 00:08:42,332 uh, while I was interviewing. 170 00:08:42,332 --> 00:08:48,092 So from that respect, it, it also lit a fire in me to wanna 171 00:08:48,212 --> 00:08:49,622 learn more about my field. 172 00:08:49,982 --> 00:08:55,202 And then as far as how it went the second time, it wasn't too drastically different. 173 00:08:55,592 --> 00:08:57,982 If you go through something once that tends to help a. 174 00:08:58,792 --> 00:09:04,072 And I definitely prepared a lot the second time going in and it turned out well. 175 00:09:04,072 --> 00:09:04,432 So 176 00:09:04,972 --> 00:09:08,872 Eddie: I think that is such an encouraging story, right? 177 00:09:08,932 --> 00:09:14,062 So often you hear about when people change jobs and like that 178 00:09:14,067 --> 00:09:15,592 they got the job and maybe they. 179 00:09:15,732 --> 00:09:17,172 Spit out a each certain number. 180 00:09:17,172 --> 00:09:21,342 Like, oh yeah, I interviewed at 20 companies and you know, everyone 181 00:09:21,342 --> 00:09:23,142 said no except two or something. 182 00:09:23,142 --> 00:09:27,882 And so that kind of helps people who are in the midst of facing rejection, 183 00:09:27,882 --> 00:09:29,592 like understand that they're not alone. 184 00:09:30,102 --> 00:09:33,252 But I think there's something especially poignant about your story 185 00:09:33,252 --> 00:09:38,052 and like not making that first time at LinkedIn and like the fact that 186 00:09:38,052 --> 00:09:39,192 you did have to phase that, right? 187 00:09:39,192 --> 00:09:41,832 Like that you even got to go to the. 188 00:09:42,152 --> 00:09:47,432 Building is like even more heartbreaking because it's like you may pass 189 00:09:47,432 --> 00:09:50,932 that like first or second like filtering interview and like Yeah. 190 00:09:51,032 --> 00:09:54,272 When you walk in the building you're thinking I could be here. 191 00:09:54,277 --> 00:09:54,932 You know what I mean? 192 00:09:54,932 --> 00:09:57,362 Like it's, it's real now, right? 193 00:09:57,992 --> 00:09:58,352 Clifford: Yep. 194 00:09:58,922 --> 00:10:02,912 The second time I got in and then how it was from Salesforce 195 00:10:02,912 --> 00:10:04,172 to LinkedIn was actually. 196 00:10:04,862 --> 00:10:07,952 Eye opening, a drastic experience, and I'll give you some context on that. 197 00:10:07,952 --> 00:10:11,582 So the first job that I got was actually fully remote. 198 00:10:11,582 --> 00:10:16,922 I worked from home and, you know, being new into your career, me 199 00:10:16,927 --> 00:10:21,062 being new into my career, I craved to be around other engineers and, 200 00:10:21,067 --> 00:10:22,322 and talked with 'em in person. 201 00:10:22,802 --> 00:10:26,012 And I didn't get too much of that at, at Salesforce. 202 00:10:26,012 --> 00:10:28,982 It was still great, um, got the experience for remote life, but when I got to 203 00:10:29,422 --> 00:10:31,712 LinkedIn, It was a different world. 204 00:10:31,712 --> 00:10:34,532 The amount of, uh, engineers that I was surrounded by. 205 00:10:34,532 --> 00:10:39,212 I got to work with lots of other people who specialized in the area of engineering 206 00:10:39,212 --> 00:10:41,042 that I was in front end engineering. 207 00:10:41,312 --> 00:10:44,342 So it, being around that environment, I felt like I even 208 00:10:44,522 --> 00:10:49,412 grew significantly more in just a, just a very short amount of time. 209 00:10:49,412 --> 00:10:52,202 Just you learn by being around people and, and talking. 210 00:10:52,607 --> 00:10:56,567 With them and through osmosis, you, you pick that stuff up. 211 00:10:56,927 --> 00:11:02,627 And this is my tip for, for people, like if you feel like you are wanting to grow 212 00:11:02,632 --> 00:11:07,517 more, sometimes you just need to surround yourself in a, in a different environment. 213 00:11:07,517 --> 00:11:10,757 If you're not getting that where you are now, at least from my experience, 214 00:11:10,847 --> 00:11:12,167 that's what what helped a lot. 215 00:11:12,827 --> 00:11:16,307 Eddie: Definitely, like you said, I've had transitions where I've 216 00:11:16,307 --> 00:11:19,727 been at a job with maybe a couple other engineers, but you don't talk. 217 00:11:19,757 --> 00:11:21,707 You're kind of just working on your own stuff. 218 00:11:21,707 --> 00:11:27,467 And then I transitioned to a design agency where I was surrounded by a bunch of front 219 00:11:27,467 --> 00:11:29,907 end engineers and we had like a weekly. 220 00:11:30,847 --> 00:11:31,867 Share session. 221 00:11:31,867 --> 00:11:33,277 So I was actually remote. 222 00:11:33,277 --> 00:11:36,847 Most of them were in person, but they would all get together in a 223 00:11:36,847 --> 00:11:40,477 meeting room and me and you know, one other remote person would call 224 00:11:40,482 --> 00:11:44,167 in, but someone would like say, Hey, here's what I learned recently. 225 00:11:44,167 --> 00:11:46,527 And you know, it was using a. 226 00:11:46,747 --> 00:11:50,317 I went from like using really old technology to suddenly using like 227 00:11:50,317 --> 00:11:53,947 angular one, and then while I was there, angular two came out. 228 00:11:53,947 --> 00:11:58,747 And it's like, it really opens your eyes to seeing what's out there and 229 00:11:59,047 --> 00:12:03,787 to really, like you said, kind of step up your technology game and awareness 230 00:12:03,787 --> 00:12:08,887 as to like different methods and processes and, and that's really cool. 231 00:12:09,172 --> 00:12:11,992 Clifford: Yeah, you mentioned Angular one, which is something 232 00:12:11,992 --> 00:12:13,732 I also used with in my first job. 233 00:12:13,732 --> 00:12:17,932 And it's just interesting because the, the industry uses React a lot. 234 00:12:17,932 --> 00:12:21,472 So when I meet other people who have touched technologies that I've used, 235 00:12:21,652 --> 00:12:23,122 like Angular one, I'm like, cool. 236 00:12:23,122 --> 00:12:27,322 We have a shared, uh, experience there in the, in the front end world. 237 00:12:27,322 --> 00:12:31,372 Eddie: So, yeah, I, I went from writing like vanilla JavaScript 238 00:12:31,372 --> 00:12:33,172 and J Query to Angular one. 239 00:12:33,172 --> 00:12:37,912 Like that was really, My first like big framework thing, and so then I 240 00:12:37,912 --> 00:12:41,032 actually went Angular one to Angular two, and I actually just started 241 00:12:41,032 --> 00:12:47,332 doing React at Glassdoor, so I had to transition from Angular, I don't know, 242 00:12:47,482 --> 00:12:50,122 number, whatever the modern angular to. 243 00:12:50,577 --> 00:12:54,117 React transitioning into this company, which was, uh, an 244 00:12:54,117 --> 00:12:55,347 interesting learning curve. 245 00:12:55,407 --> 00:12:59,367 But, uh, thankfully, you know, if you get the right resources and you, 246 00:12:59,367 --> 00:13:02,097 you know, have coded long enough, you can figure out, oh, okay, this 247 00:13:02,097 --> 00:13:04,977 is how you do that thing I used to do in this other framework. 248 00:13:05,487 --> 00:13:05,727 . Clifford: Yeah. 249 00:13:06,537 --> 00:13:07,377 Interesting. 250 00:13:07,377 --> 00:13:09,387 We talked about transitioning to react. 251 00:13:09,387 --> 00:13:12,057 I had a very similar experience to you, and I wanna tie this 252 00:13:12,057 --> 00:13:14,247 into learning and community. 253 00:13:14,447 --> 00:13:20,957 I hadn't started re reacting until 2021 and I'd started in 2016 doing development. 254 00:13:20,957 --> 00:13:26,057 So, um, I think one thing to call out is I'm drawn to technologies and their 255 00:13:26,057 --> 00:13:30,227 communities, so I really like the React community and, and what they're doing 256 00:13:30,227 --> 00:13:34,667 and what, just the people leading those frameworks, creating the libraries. 257 00:13:34,667 --> 00:13:39,727 And so for a long time I wanted to work with React and that actually 258 00:13:39,732 --> 00:13:43,607 influenced how I decided what team that I wanted to work on. 259 00:13:44,172 --> 00:13:47,082 Where I wanted to take myself in my career. 260 00:13:47,082 --> 00:13:52,002 So I think it's a hot take, but a lot of people say like, you shouldn't be, 261 00:13:52,092 --> 00:13:53,742 you know, attached to a technology. 262 00:13:53,742 --> 00:13:56,172 There's a whole generalist mindset, you know, just. 263 00:13:56,522 --> 00:13:57,602 Everything's a hammer. 264 00:13:57,602 --> 00:13:59,252 Just think of it as a tool. 265 00:13:59,342 --> 00:14:02,762 Don't become attached, but it's not bad to work with technologies 266 00:14:02,762 --> 00:14:04,052 that you wanna work with. 267 00:14:04,052 --> 00:14:07,892 I feel like we're lucky in the industry to be able to, to choose. 268 00:14:07,892 --> 00:14:10,967 Like if you wanna be in the React community, you can do that. 269 00:14:11,192 --> 00:14:12,512 There's those opportunities. 270 00:14:12,517 --> 00:14:15,852 If you wanna focus on something else, view angular. 271 00:14:16,562 --> 00:14:19,202 There's significant opportunities there too. 272 00:14:19,332 --> 00:14:21,392 And yeah, that just changes how you work. 273 00:14:21,392 --> 00:14:24,272 Your demeanor, I don't know if you've had that experience as. 274 00:14:25,172 --> 00:14:29,642 Eddie: No, I think that's great because it's like, yes, they are all 275 00:14:29,642 --> 00:14:33,962 tools, but certain tools do work a certain way in your brain, right? 276 00:14:33,962 --> 00:14:36,962 Like for some people, like it just works a certain way. 277 00:14:36,962 --> 00:14:41,132 Or like the people who decided to make Angular, the people who 278 00:14:41,132 --> 00:14:45,572 decided to make React, they had a specific methodology that. 279 00:14:46,162 --> 00:14:47,452 Kind of subscribe to. 280 00:14:47,482 --> 00:14:51,742 And so if you feel like that's a good methodology, it totally makes sense 281 00:14:51,742 --> 00:14:56,632 to want to stick with and connect with that community and that methodology. 282 00:14:56,782 --> 00:15:01,522 I mean, there are people who, to this day, still find jobs doing rubian rails, which. 283 00:15:01,732 --> 00:15:04,432 That framework's been around for like two decades. 284 00:15:04,912 --> 00:15:08,362 So it's like, hey, like if people can still be doing Ruby on Rails 285 00:15:08,362 --> 00:15:13,162 today and getting paid, like you can probably find a job doing, you know, 286 00:15:13,162 --> 00:15:16,942 any of the, the front end frameworks that you want for your whole career. 287 00:15:17,242 --> 00:15:20,092 So I think it's, it's fine to double down, um, on that. 288 00:15:20,152 --> 00:15:23,452 It's really what's important to you, right? 289 00:15:23,452 --> 00:15:23,842 Like, as. 290 00:15:24,502 --> 00:15:25,612 As an engineer. 291 00:15:25,942 --> 00:15:28,192 Some people it's about what technology do they work with. 292 00:15:28,192 --> 00:15:30,982 Some people, it's like they don't care about the technology, but they 293 00:15:30,982 --> 00:15:32,152 care about the industry, right? 294 00:15:32,152 --> 00:15:35,842 Like they always want to be in cybersecurity or banking 295 00:15:35,842 --> 00:15:37,012 or something like that. 296 00:15:37,012 --> 00:15:39,502 Whereas in other people it's like, well, I'll change industries 297 00:15:39,507 --> 00:15:41,032 as as long as I get to work. 298 00:15:41,247 --> 00:15:44,277 With reacting the front end, and it's like, that's, that's what I enjoy. 299 00:15:44,282 --> 00:15:44,517 Right. 300 00:15:44,517 --> 00:15:48,057 As long as there's something there that you enjoy that like speaks to you. 301 00:15:48,087 --> 00:15:48,147 Yeah, 302 00:15:48,717 --> 00:15:49,407 Clifford: totally agree. 303 00:15:49,407 --> 00:15:53,247 You, you mentioned lots of awesome caveats, which I agree with. 304 00:15:53,607 --> 00:15:54,327 It's for sure. 305 00:15:54,657 --> 00:15:58,227 Eddie: Well, so what kind of keeps you excited and interested in working 306 00:15:58,227 --> 00:16:01,677 as a software engineer now that you're, you're in the industry, right? 307 00:16:01,677 --> 00:16:03,147 You've worked at a couple companies. 308 00:16:03,147 --> 00:16:04,257 Now, what is it? 309 00:16:04,992 --> 00:16:06,162 Keeps you, yeah. 310 00:16:06,372 --> 00:16:08,922 Plugged in and excited to learn things and kind of go to 311 00:16:08,922 --> 00:16:09,492 Clifford: work every day. 312 00:16:09,792 --> 00:16:14,652 I really, the aspect of front end that keeps me excited is just the, 313 00:16:14,682 --> 00:16:19,362 the hope and possibility to be able to create experiences that just wow 314 00:16:19,362 --> 00:16:23,322 people that are fluid, that are usable. 315 00:16:23,472 --> 00:16:27,672 I think the fact that you can create something and just share it via 316 00:16:27,672 --> 00:16:29,952 a URL is just crazy to me still. 317 00:16:29,957 --> 00:16:32,292 Like, I think that's so cool how you. 318 00:16:32,717 --> 00:16:37,517 Create something, share it via text message to somebody, or, uh, 319 00:16:37,547 --> 00:16:40,877 messenger, WhatsApp, and people can experience what you've built. 320 00:16:41,027 --> 00:16:42,947 I certainly like CLI tools. 321 00:16:42,947 --> 00:16:44,057 I like desktop apps. 322 00:16:44,057 --> 00:16:48,197 I mean, I, I've also built desktop apps before, but there's just something so 323 00:16:48,197 --> 00:16:52,937 cool about the web and how it's easy to share your knowledge, share your 324 00:16:53,207 --> 00:16:55,357 experiences, share your creations. 325 00:16:55,607 --> 00:16:58,797 And I still remember from the beginning when I was learning a. 326 00:16:59,362 --> 00:17:04,072 I would see people on YouTube talk about technologies and the hope that 327 00:17:04,102 --> 00:17:08,602 one day I could create something useful or clean like those people. 328 00:17:09,227 --> 00:17:10,967 Kept me, kept me going. 329 00:17:11,237 --> 00:17:15,377 So those are just some things that keep me excited about the front end. 330 00:17:15,707 --> 00:17:16,637 Eddie: That's really cool. 331 00:17:17,147 --> 00:17:22,547 And that kind of speaking of things that we enjoy, um, I think that kind of brings 332 00:17:22,547 --> 00:17:27,917 us in, you know, every episode we always talk about something that brings us joy. 333 00:17:28,037 --> 00:17:30,767 So I just kind of wanted to ask what's something that brings 334 00:17:30,767 --> 00:17:33,677 you joy in particular and something that you'd like to talk 335 00:17:33,677 --> 00:17:33,947 Clifford: about? 336 00:17:34,337 --> 00:17:39,832 So one thing that that brings me joy, Centered around learning and, 337 00:17:39,832 --> 00:17:44,692 and the work that I do is getting more people involved in, uh, 338 00:17:44,692 --> 00:17:46,762 programming and, and web development. 339 00:17:46,762 --> 00:17:50,662 In particular, when I went to a coding bootcamp, I actually stayed 340 00:17:50,667 --> 00:17:53,122 on to continue mentoring people. 341 00:17:53,152 --> 00:17:54,082 I still do that. 342 00:17:54,397 --> 00:17:59,527 To this day, I still remember those challenging days in the beginning, and 343 00:17:59,827 --> 00:18:05,887 I wanna try and continue to alleviate some of those, those, those feelings and 344 00:18:05,892 --> 00:18:08,047 and challenges for, for other people. 345 00:18:08,047 --> 00:18:11,557 Just be a mentor and have somebody to talk to. 346 00:18:11,562 --> 00:18:16,207 So, and the way I've gotten involved with that is there's various ways I 347 00:18:16,212 --> 00:18:18,757 still volunteer at my coding bootcamp. 348 00:18:19,147 --> 00:18:22,477 I share on Twitter sometimes about the stuff that I'm learning. 349 00:18:22,827 --> 00:18:24,657 I get involved in open source. 350 00:18:25,197 --> 00:18:30,357 So there's, there's a few ways that I, uh, get involved there. 351 00:18:30,897 --> 00:18:31,377 I love 352 00:18:31,382 --> 00:18:32,217 Eddie: that, right? 353 00:18:32,217 --> 00:18:36,387 You went through a journey and you're kind of reaching back and giving back to 354 00:18:36,387 --> 00:18:38,337 people who were in your position, right? 355 00:18:38,487 --> 00:18:40,797 Trying to help them through coding boot camps, and. 356 00:18:41,237 --> 00:18:42,677 Share on Twitter, right? 357 00:18:42,677 --> 00:18:47,657 Where people might be where you were back in 20 14, 20 15, 358 00:18:47,657 --> 00:18:49,247 something around that time. 359 00:18:49,247 --> 00:18:49,637 Right. 360 00:18:49,757 --> 00:18:51,467 And like, yeah, right. 361 00:18:51,467 --> 00:18:56,957 They might be in some random college class and be like, uh, I don't know. 362 00:18:56,957 --> 00:19:00,077 And then see your tweets and be like, oh, hey, maybe y'all, maybe 363 00:19:00,077 --> 00:19:01,337 y'all check this coding thing out. 364 00:19:02,267 --> 00:19:02,957 . Clifford: Yeah. 365 00:19:03,017 --> 00:19:07,247 Because I feel like, um, it can seem very intimidating jumping 366 00:19:07,247 --> 00:19:08,927 into the world of code, how it. 367 00:19:09,797 --> 00:19:11,107 You know, it's very abstract. 368 00:19:11,112 --> 00:19:14,867 Initially we're used to it because we've been coding a long time, but I 369 00:19:15,047 --> 00:19:20,177 remember seeing the faces of, of some of my friends and some of my peers, 370 00:19:20,182 --> 00:19:23,057 and I remember why they got excited. 371 00:19:23,062 --> 00:19:27,627 And being a mentor allows me to kind of like how the coding bootcamp folks 372 00:19:28,037 --> 00:19:32,567 helped me remember, like, you know, my goals, like when I had initially left 373 00:19:32,567 --> 00:19:34,397 cuz I was facing imposter syndrome. 374 00:19:34,697 --> 00:19:36,737 I like to help other people. 375 00:19:37,502 --> 00:19:40,152 Overcome that and, and, and just help them along their way. 376 00:19:40,152 --> 00:19:42,762 Cuz I do feel like programming is an art. 377 00:19:42,972 --> 00:19:46,962 I think it's one way to express yourself, you know, building 378 00:19:46,962 --> 00:19:48,462 stuff online and sharing it. 379 00:19:48,462 --> 00:19:52,422 So yeah, so helping out in volunteering is one of those 380 00:19:52,452 --> 00:19:54,357 outlets that I have for, to do that. 381 00:19:55,332 --> 00:19:56,172 Eddie: That's awesome. 382 00:19:56,442 --> 00:20:00,132 You know, what do you think, like some keys to like getting into web 383 00:20:00,132 --> 00:20:02,202 development are kind of today, right? 384 00:20:02,202 --> 00:20:02,562 If someone. 385 00:20:03,342 --> 00:20:07,602 Is listening to this and they're like, yeah, I, I am curious thinking in web 386 00:20:07,602 --> 00:20:11,292 development, like maybe they've kind of started, but they haven't really taken 387 00:20:11,297 --> 00:20:15,072 a big step or any big successes yet. 388 00:20:15,072 --> 00:20:17,562 Like what do you think would be helpful for them to try 389 00:20:17,562 --> 00:20:18,912 to just get started learning? 390 00:20:19,152 --> 00:20:19,482 Clifford: Yeah. 391 00:20:19,482 --> 00:20:21,702 Somebody is interested in web development. 392 00:20:22,002 --> 00:20:26,467 There's lots of resources online, but it can often feel like, A ocean 393 00:20:26,567 --> 00:20:30,877 of, of, of content out there and you can easily become overwhelmed. 394 00:20:30,877 --> 00:20:36,127 But some resources for folks who, who do wanna dive into developing for the web, I 395 00:20:36,217 --> 00:20:39,547 recommend first checking out, uh, YouTube. 396 00:20:39,547 --> 00:20:44,167 One coding, uh, channel that I like is, it's called Coding Tech. 397 00:20:44,167 --> 00:20:46,867 And the interesting thing about it is they showcase. 398 00:20:47,337 --> 00:20:50,667 Coding videos from different areas of, of programming, web 399 00:20:50,667 --> 00:20:52,347 development, iOS development. 400 00:20:52,347 --> 00:20:56,337 So you get to see, uh, this, this broad spectrum of things and then 401 00:20:56,697 --> 00:21:00,177 that could give you an idea of what area you wanna lean into. 402 00:21:00,387 --> 00:21:04,197 So just building a little bit of the broad picture mentally. 403 00:21:04,197 --> 00:21:06,897 And then as far as like getting into web and. 404 00:21:07,302 --> 00:21:13,182 I'd recommend Code Academy or West Boss's JavaScript 30 free course. 405 00:21:13,182 --> 00:21:18,992 I feel like those will give you a taste of, uh, The, the awesome parts of web 406 00:21:18,992 --> 00:21:20,942 development and in, in a structured way. 407 00:21:20,942 --> 00:21:24,812 Cause I feel like in the beginning, especially structure, actually not 408 00:21:24,812 --> 00:21:28,622 in the beginning, just in anything structure just helps you focus on 409 00:21:28,952 --> 00:21:30,812 building what you want that end goal. 410 00:21:30,812 --> 00:21:35,462 And so definitely JavaScript 30 Code Academy at least are on the 411 00:21:35,462 --> 00:21:38,882 top of my list if you wanna learn web development for free from 412 00:21:38,882 --> 00:21:42,362 awesome and engaged folks, so that's 413 00:21:42,362 --> 00:21:42,842 Eddie: great. 414 00:21:43,357 --> 00:21:47,077 You know, how would you compare things to, like for people getting 415 00:21:47,077 --> 00:21:51,067 started today compared to like when you were trying to get into it? 416 00:21:51,067 --> 00:21:52,567 Do you think it's easier? 417 00:21:52,567 --> 00:21:54,067 Do you think it's harder? 418 00:21:54,367 --> 00:21:57,397 Have things changed dramatically or is it pretty similar? 419 00:21:57,397 --> 00:21:57,697 What? 420 00:21:57,727 --> 00:21:58,357 What do you think there? 421 00:21:58,897 --> 00:21:59,227 This 422 00:21:59,227 --> 00:22:00,307 Clifford: one is, is tough. 423 00:22:00,307 --> 00:22:01,747 I thought about this one a lot. 424 00:22:02,137 --> 00:22:07,747 I do think now there are more resources and in 2014 and 2015, especially for 425 00:22:07,752 --> 00:22:12,727 people who are coming from kind of like a non-traditional background, they're, they 426 00:22:12,732 --> 00:22:14,617 wanna take the self-learning route or. 427 00:22:15,117 --> 00:22:17,937 You know, maybe they don't have the resources or time to 428 00:22:17,967 --> 00:22:19,257 do a computer science degree. 429 00:22:19,257 --> 00:22:24,627 There are more resources now to, to get into, uh, the field faster especially. 430 00:22:24,632 --> 00:22:29,397 So the one thing is since there's so many resources, it can feel overwhelming, 431 00:22:29,577 --> 00:22:34,437 but I would say it's gotten a lot easier to, to learn more because people are 432 00:22:34,437 --> 00:22:37,587 sharing more, people are creating, more people are on Twitter, people 433 00:22:37,587 --> 00:22:39,357 are creating more YouTube videos. 434 00:22:39,497 --> 00:22:40,537 So I think. 435 00:22:41,237 --> 00:22:45,647 Definitely shows the, uh, that there are more opportunities to, 436 00:22:46,007 --> 00:22:47,657 to learn in different styles too. 437 00:22:47,657 --> 00:22:48,197 So 438 00:22:48,467 --> 00:22:49,757 Eddie: that makes a lot of sense. 439 00:22:49,967 --> 00:22:54,737 It's interesting because when we kind of start talking about this topic of 440 00:22:54,737 --> 00:23:00,037 learning, you know, you mentioned that you kind of try to give back and help people. 441 00:23:00,947 --> 00:23:03,617 You know, in the way that you were helped, and you mentioned that 442 00:23:03,617 --> 00:23:08,507 when you kind of left the bootcamp that you were facing kind of an 443 00:23:08,507 --> 00:23:10,787 imposter syndrome and so, right. 444 00:23:10,792 --> 00:23:14,447 Like that I guess is a challenge that is consistent. 445 00:23:14,452 --> 00:23:14,717 Right? 446 00:23:14,717 --> 00:23:18,077 In some ways it's like, okay, people have more resources, but they 447 00:23:18,077 --> 00:23:22,562 can be overwhelmed by resources, but at the same time, , like 448 00:23:22,562 --> 00:23:24,272 something's never change, right? 449 00:23:24,272 --> 00:23:29,692 And so part of that is like this idea of imposter syndrome that frankly everyone 450 00:23:29,697 --> 00:23:34,592 feels, but you actually have a very specific, like oftentimes it's internal, 451 00:23:34,892 --> 00:23:36,872 but yours actually became external, right? 452 00:23:36,877 --> 00:23:38,932 Like you left the bootcamp and mm-hmm. 453 00:23:39,012 --> 00:23:41,942 , someone had to kind of reach out and kind of pull you back in. 454 00:23:42,302 --> 00:23:46,862 What was that like for you to kind of go through that and 455 00:23:46,952 --> 00:23:47,822 what kind of comes to mind? 456 00:23:48,432 --> 00:23:48,882 So 457 00:23:48,942 --> 00:23:51,702 Clifford: to your point about, you know, the imposter syndrome, you 458 00:23:51,702 --> 00:23:56,472 feel it internally and I actually, uh, externalized it by, you know, 459 00:23:56,532 --> 00:23:58,002 deciding to leave the bootcamp. 460 00:23:58,007 --> 00:24:02,082 And I would say that first I wanna comfort people and let them know 461 00:24:02,082 --> 00:24:08,122 that even for me, at how many years I've been here developing 7 20 16. 462 00:24:08,322 --> 00:24:12,732 So it's about six years, seven years since I've been developing, you still 463 00:24:12,912 --> 00:24:16,392 can get imposter syndrome sometimes because you meet phenomenal people. 464 00:24:16,807 --> 00:24:20,857 In your programming journey, and you might be like, wow, like these 465 00:24:20,857 --> 00:24:23,797 people can do amazing things and, and I don't know how to do that. 466 00:24:23,797 --> 00:24:28,807 So you can fall into the trap of comparison, but at the same time, 467 00:24:28,897 --> 00:24:32,827 you know, you need to stop yourself and remember that that's also maybe 468 00:24:32,827 --> 00:24:37,057 possible to achieve by asking for help or, you know, spending some 469 00:24:37,057 --> 00:24:38,887 time, uh, learning those things. 470 00:24:38,887 --> 00:24:40,207 So, you know, even till this. 471 00:24:40,872 --> 00:24:45,432 And imposter syndrome comes out like somebody tells me to, to do something very 472 00:24:45,432 --> 00:24:47,232 ambiguous that I've never done before. 473 00:24:47,232 --> 00:24:51,282 It may come out for a little bit, so I still get it till this day, and I 474 00:24:51,282 --> 00:24:55,212 feel like asking for help is something that I started doing a lot more in 475 00:24:55,212 --> 00:24:57,222 my career after that experience. 476 00:24:57,587 --> 00:25:02,057 Just letting people know how I feel and that really helps a lot because holding 477 00:25:02,057 --> 00:25:04,697 it all in, I don't think it does anybody. 478 00:25:04,937 --> 00:25:06,107 It doesn't help you too much. 479 00:25:06,167 --> 00:25:10,427 But whereas if you verbalize that with somebody else and it, you may be scared 480 00:25:10,432 --> 00:25:15,677 to appear, maybe less competent or, I don't know what you might think or 481 00:25:15,707 --> 00:25:17,237 what somebody might think about that. 482 00:25:17,267 --> 00:25:18,197 At least that's how I felt. 483 00:25:18,197 --> 00:25:20,717 Maybe this person's not gonna think I'm competent. 484 00:25:21,732 --> 00:25:23,892 There might think less of me, but that's not the case. 485 00:25:23,892 --> 00:25:28,302 Times I've opened up, people have, it's made my work environment more relaxed 486 00:25:28,302 --> 00:25:33,012 because now that person also kind of becomes an ally in your journey. 487 00:25:33,012 --> 00:25:36,642 They're like, okay, you know, Clifford was able to open up to me and we had 488 00:25:36,642 --> 00:25:40,847 this shared experience and most people I've run into, into my career, They're 489 00:25:40,847 --> 00:25:42,707 very helpful and, and nice people. 490 00:25:42,707 --> 00:25:46,907 And somebody opened up to me about facing imposter syndrome. 491 00:25:47,027 --> 00:25:50,057 I definitely would wanna help that person, so I, the majority 492 00:25:50,057 --> 00:25:51,167 of people will do that too. 493 00:25:51,167 --> 00:25:51,647 So 494 00:25:51,827 --> 00:25:53,057 Eddie: that makes a lot of sense. 495 00:25:53,057 --> 00:25:57,917 I think it's interesting because, yeah, we think if we kind of stay 496 00:25:57,922 --> 00:26:01,217 closed off and we don't share what we're struggling with, like people 497 00:26:01,217 --> 00:26:02,927 will think we're awesome and amazing. 498 00:26:03,167 --> 00:26:05,507 But it's funny because I've like. 499 00:26:05,912 --> 00:26:11,852 Psychologically, you think that someone will like you more if you do things for 500 00:26:11,852 --> 00:26:14,472 them, but actually it's the opposite. 501 00:26:14,477 --> 00:26:19,292 Like people actually become more attached if they do things for you. 502 00:26:19,622 --> 00:26:22,272 So it's like the people who you do things for you are. 503 00:26:22,812 --> 00:26:27,072 Attaching yourself even more so in that same way, like by kind of 504 00:26:27,072 --> 00:26:31,122 dropping the water line and saying, Hey, I need help to your coworkers. 505 00:26:31,332 --> 00:26:34,632 You are actually creating more of an attachment from them to 506 00:26:34,637 --> 00:26:39,132 you because they are then helping you and now they're invested. 507 00:26:39,452 --> 00:26:40,532 In your success. 508 00:26:40,532 --> 00:26:40,862 Right. 509 00:26:40,862 --> 00:26:45,272 And they, it's interesting how all that psychological stuff works. 510 00:26:45,277 --> 00:26:48,182 Like oftentimes it's opposite of the way we think it would be. 511 00:26:48,332 --> 00:26:48,992 Yeah. 512 00:26:49,022 --> 00:26:52,742 But that, that's great to hear cuz I think so many people would 513 00:26:52,742 --> 00:26:55,052 be able to push through where they're at if they would just. 514 00:26:55,332 --> 00:26:59,892 Ask people for help, but there's always that fear and like being able to hear 515 00:26:59,897 --> 00:27:04,122 like, oh no, Clifford's told people, and like no one has shut him down. 516 00:27:04,602 --> 00:27:08,442 I've talked to people that I work with in previous jobs and 517 00:27:08,442 --> 00:27:10,122 like they've never shut me down. 518 00:27:10,212 --> 00:27:11,172 Like that's one of the things. 519 00:27:11,387 --> 00:27:15,377 Like in the last two jobs I've been at, I've been in more engineering manager 520 00:27:15,837 --> 00:27:20,717 positions, and so having been in imposter syndrome myself, like as we have new 521 00:27:20,717 --> 00:27:23,987 people onboarding, like one of the things I always try to emphasize is I'm 522 00:27:23,992 --> 00:27:25,907 like, ask all the questions you want. 523 00:27:25,907 --> 00:27:27,797 Like there's no dumb question. 524 00:27:27,802 --> 00:27:32,672 You can ask anything because it's like ultimately, If you don't know 525 00:27:32,672 --> 00:27:36,122 something, like you can spend a lot of time spinning your wheels and you 526 00:27:36,127 --> 00:27:41,132 could have figured it out and actually moved on like in one fourth of the time. 527 00:27:41,192 --> 00:27:45,272 So it's like lots of times by asking a question, you're, you're not 528 00:27:45,272 --> 00:27:49,322 only helping yourself progress, but you're actually helping the company 529 00:27:49,322 --> 00:27:51,902 and the team move forward faster. 530 00:27:52,172 --> 00:27:54,242 And so actually everyone's benefiting. 531 00:27:54,242 --> 00:27:55,052 It's not even. 532 00:27:55,737 --> 00:27:59,097 About you, like you are helping everyone benefit by asking that 533 00:27:59,097 --> 00:28:00,687 question and by putting that out there. 534 00:28:00,687 --> 00:28:01,347 So that's 535 00:28:01,347 --> 00:28:01,767 Clifford: awesome. 536 00:28:01,917 --> 00:28:07,677 Yeah, he just reminded me also this, the past three months I was helping, I 537 00:28:07,677 --> 00:28:12,447 onboarded an intern on my team and on the topic of learning web development 538 00:28:12,452 --> 00:28:16,947 in 2022, he was actually learning web development from scratch in 2022. 539 00:28:17,127 --> 00:28:20,547 I just remember going into it, thinking, putting myself back. 540 00:28:21,142 --> 00:28:24,502 My position when I was starting at tracing back, like, you know, we get 541 00:28:24,502 --> 00:28:27,982 exposed to so many technologies that through time, you probably remember, 542 00:28:27,982 --> 00:28:31,912 gold, grt, Webpac, all these things, what they are, and I'm like, it can 543 00:28:31,912 --> 00:28:33,892 be overwhelming to somebody who's new. 544 00:28:33,892 --> 00:28:39,232 And while I was going into this mentorship with this new intern on my team, I re 545 00:28:39,502 --> 00:28:43,732 immediately thought about my struggles and I want them to see the beauty. 546 00:28:44,072 --> 00:28:49,082 Of web programming, such as I see it cuz I've seen people who only seen a 547 00:28:49,082 --> 00:28:53,252 glimpse and they've gotten stuck and maybe they didn't have the, the time 548 00:28:53,822 --> 00:28:55,412 resources and mentors to stick it through. 549 00:28:55,412 --> 00:28:58,682 And I'm like, oh man, we, we lost one here temporarily. 550 00:28:59,012 --> 00:29:05,282 So timely to talk about learning, uh, the web in 2022, when I helped somebody 551 00:29:05,792 --> 00:29:08,042 learn how to do that from scratch in 2020. 552 00:29:08,732 --> 00:29:12,992 And maybe I could talk a little bit about that internship experience. 553 00:29:12,992 --> 00:29:18,572 So, yeah, one thing that I think the technologies have gotten a lot better. 554 00:29:19,517 --> 00:29:24,677 Since when we started, I started in 2016, and one technology that comes 555 00:29:24,682 --> 00:29:28,337 to mind, and there's a lot of other alternatives, of course, is remix. 556 00:29:28,397 --> 00:29:32,057 So remix the React, full Stack React framework. 557 00:29:32,117 --> 00:29:37,787 And actually this intern, their task over the summer was to prototype remix. 558 00:29:38,447 --> 00:29:45,137 For us, uh, at LinkedIn and what I really liked about Remix is that this person 559 00:29:45,257 --> 00:29:50,117 could get a taste for the front end and the back end at the same time, back end, 560 00:29:50,177 --> 00:29:54,647 meaning, you know, working on the servers for people who are new to all of this. 561 00:29:55,097 --> 00:29:58,697 But it was just a, a nice experience seeing them become 562 00:29:58,697 --> 00:30:01,287 a full stack software engineer. 563 00:30:01,622 --> 00:30:07,892 In three months and come out wanting to explore more of the world of uh, 564 00:30:08,072 --> 00:30:10,022 just full stack web development. 565 00:30:10,412 --> 00:30:11,822 It was an awesome experience. 566 00:30:12,122 --> 00:30:13,292 Eddie: That is awesome. 567 00:30:13,562 --> 00:30:13,922 Yeah. 568 00:30:13,927 --> 00:30:17,102 I actually am right now the website that. 569 00:30:17,452 --> 00:30:21,622 Host this podcast is just like a random service provider, but I'm actually 570 00:30:21,622 --> 00:30:24,622 building a website from scratch and I'm actually using Remix to do it. 571 00:30:24,982 --> 00:30:29,662 And uh, yeah, it is really enjoyable and really easy, like 572 00:30:29,662 --> 00:30:31,822 you said, to like do both things. 573 00:30:31,827 --> 00:30:34,702 You're not having to do these crazy hops back and forth. 574 00:30:34,912 --> 00:30:37,232 It's not like you're like, have this Java that's. 575 00:30:37,342 --> 00:30:42,802 Spins up this, you know, angular web app or reactor app or whatever, like it 576 00:30:42,802 --> 00:30:47,602 feels more like you're in P H P or like something like that where hey, it just 577 00:30:47,602 --> 00:30:49,132 does everything and you know, you've got. 578 00:30:50,237 --> 00:30:51,077 PHP everywhere. 579 00:30:51,317 --> 00:30:56,387 And with Remix, like you just have a bunch of React and JavaScript everywhere 580 00:30:56,387 --> 00:30:58,667 and uh, it's really fun to use. 581 00:30:59,027 --> 00:30:59,597 Clifford: Awesome. 582 00:30:59,897 --> 00:31:03,017 Glad to hear you using Remix, and it's, I've had a similar 583 00:31:03,017 --> 00:31:04,517 fun experience with it as well. 584 00:31:04,907 --> 00:31:05,537 Nice. 585 00:31:06,257 --> 00:31:09,977 Eddie: Well, hey, as we wrap up this episode, um, we always love. 586 00:31:11,057 --> 00:31:14,237 Here, if there's anything that you've been involved in or anything you've 587 00:31:14,237 --> 00:31:17,687 worked on that you'd like to share with the community, that might be 588 00:31:17,687 --> 00:31:18,197 Clifford: helpful. 589 00:31:18,377 --> 00:31:24,767 Yeah, so for folks wanting to get into web programming, software engineering 590 00:31:24,767 --> 00:31:29,597 in general, There are a lot more resources now for, for breaking into 591 00:31:29,597 --> 00:31:31,967 the industry that I, I wanna share. 592 00:31:31,967 --> 00:31:38,057 So at my company LinkedIn, there is a apprenticeship program called Reach. 593 00:31:38,387 --> 00:31:42,797 So LinkedIn Reach is for folks trying to break into programming. 594 00:31:42,977 --> 00:31:45,077 It could be project management as well. 595 00:31:45,077 --> 00:31:48,527 There's like a data science track, there's an analyst track, but, 596 00:31:49,007 --> 00:31:52,337 uh, LinkedIn has an apprenticeship program that you should check out. 597 00:31:52,877 --> 00:31:57,767 You're trying to break into web programming other companies like Airbnb, 598 00:31:57,767 --> 00:32:02,687 Amazon, there's a whole list now that also offer apprenticeship programs. 599 00:32:03,272 --> 00:32:08,042 So I highly recommend you, you, uh, look into those, just the name 600 00:32:08,042 --> 00:32:09,692 of the company, apprenticeships. 601 00:32:10,082 --> 00:32:14,672 I think those what I'd leave off with, but feel free to reach out to me. 602 00:32:14,762 --> 00:32:19,292 I'm eager to, to answer questions for, for new programmers and people 603 00:32:19,292 --> 00:32:21,392 trying to break them to the industry. 604 00:32:21,397 --> 00:32:23,222 Happy to be a resource 605 00:32:23,227 --> 00:32:23,432 Eddie: too. 606 00:32:23,942 --> 00:32:24,782 That's perfect. 607 00:32:24,872 --> 00:32:25,172 And. 608 00:32:25,742 --> 00:32:29,882 Yeah, I will include a link to, you know, some of the various apprenticeships 609 00:32:29,942 --> 00:32:32,252 that are easy to find in the show notes. 610 00:32:32,312 --> 00:32:36,032 I know in previous episode we've actually heard Twitter has one. 611 00:32:36,092 --> 00:32:38,582 Um, Alex shared that in episode three. 612 00:32:38,882 --> 00:32:42,932 He was at Wayfair before that, and Wayfair had an kind of. 613 00:32:43,212 --> 00:32:44,592 Apprenticeship program as well. 614 00:32:44,592 --> 00:32:49,602 So include those as well as LinkedIn and, um, some of the other popular ones. 615 00:32:49,602 --> 00:32:53,052 So if you all are interested in checking that stuff out, head over 616 00:32:53,052 --> 00:32:55,182 to the show notes, access that stuff. 617 00:32:55,212 --> 00:32:59,712 And Clifford, thank you so much for just joining and chatting. 618 00:32:59,717 --> 00:33:03,342 It's been a pleasure to get to know you, hear your story. 619 00:33:03,612 --> 00:33:06,162 It's, it's really unique, so I've really just enjoyed 620 00:33:06,162 --> 00:33:06,552 Clifford: chatting. 621 00:33:06,762 --> 00:33:07,092 Yeah. 622 00:33:07,092 --> 00:33:07,872 Thanks Eddie. 623 00:33:07,992 --> 00:33:09,372 Uh, it was a blast talking. 624 00:33:09,377 --> 00:33:09,582 Glad. 625 00:33:10,057 --> 00:33:13,267 Here are some shared history in the development journey as well. 626 00:33:13,597 --> 00:33:14,617 Eddie: Yeah, for sure. 627 00:33:16,247 --> 00:33:19,247 Thank you for joining us for episode 36. 628 00:33:19,607 --> 00:33:23,987 I left the coding bootcamp a week into it with Clifford for Harteau you can find 629 00:33:23,987 --> 00:33:26,357 out more about Clifford on his website. 630 00:33:26,567 --> 00:33:31,067 Clifford dot com and you can find him all across the interwebs. 631 00:33:31,637 --> 00:33:35,327 You can find links to everything we talked about in this episode, as well 632 00:33:35,327 --> 00:33:39,107 as link to Clifford's website and social media accounts in the show notes. 633 00:33:39,557 --> 00:33:43,097 And if you enjoy this episode, why not help others discover it as well? 634 00:33:43,367 --> 00:33:46,637 Go ahead and give us a shout out on your favorite social media platform and 635 00:33:46,877 --> 00:33:51,317 tag that friend or coworker that you know, would find it really enjoyable. 636 00:33:51,707 --> 00:33:55,877 Don't forget to follow us where ever you hang out online or go ahead and 637 00:33:55,877 --> 00:33:59,357 subscribe to our newsletter to stay up to date on all the episodes. 638 00:33:59,717 --> 00:34:02,687 Thank you for listening and have a great day. 639 00:34:02,828 --> 00:34:03,008 Clifford: See,