Hello, and welcome to Storytelling For Business, the podcast that helps you build better customer relationships by telling stories your clients want to hear. I'm Katie Flamman. I'm a voiceover artist specialising in corporate storytelling. I've worked with clients like Fidelity, Barclays Bank, and Deloitte, helping them to share brand stories and business developments. But why is business storytelling important? What makes a great story? And how can storytelling create leads for businesses and build lasting client relationships? I'm determined to find out the answers. And anything I discover, you'll be the first to know. Now, do you remember, in episode one, Gareth Dimelow said that "You are your own USP?" Today's guest is truly unique. Episode eight is about being authentic and owning your story.

Let's meet independent financial advisor, Dai Rose. Dai Rose is a financial advisor with a bit of a difference. His business is called Sterling Welsh, and they're based in Cardiff and Swansea. And they help people with mortgages and personal finance. The financial services industry is, traditionally, pretty strait-laced. Of course, money matters are important and serious. But Dai does things a bit differently. And he's proved that just because it's a serious business, it doesn't have to be dull in the way that it's marketed. And Dai himself is definitely not boring. Let's jump right in and find out about this thriving company, how it stands out from the crowd, and the story behind it. Welcome to the podcast, Dai.

Hi, Katie. Good morning.

Thanks so much for being here. It's brilliant to talk to you.

That's okay. Likewise. Looking forward to it.

Let's start by finding out a bit more about your business. Just tell me what you do, and the headlines, if you were explaining to somebody what you do.

Okay. We're a financial company. We do personal finances. That may be anything from mortgages, pensions. We do investments. We're helping people with inheritance tax problems. Any sort of personal finance issues, we will deal with.

When people come to your company, are they completely clued-up about what they need or how to go about it, or are people, quite often, a little bit, in the dark, and a bit anxious?

A small percentage of them know what they want, but they're certainly in the minority. The majority of our clients, essentially, come to us and say something like, "Oh, I don't have a pension. I don't really understand how it works. I don't know what I need to do." And most of them are in the dark. They put money into a pension because they think it's a good idea, or they save up for their kids to go to school, or whatever they may be doing, but they don't really set any goals, or know where they're going, or which sort of path they're on. What we tend to do, like I said, we try and be different. We don't bore them with stock markets and guilt, rates, and all the rest of it. The most financial advisors do.

We sit down with them, and we set goals, and we say, "Right. Okay. If you want to retire at 60, or 55, or whatever it might be, this is how much money you need. This is the sort of lifestyle that you may want." And we go through that. And we get to know them. And when we know that, and we work out their magic numbers that we see. Then what I do? I work on a plan with them to see how long, really, it's going to take them to get there. Because they can always get there, as long as they're prepared to do what it takes. And they can always get there. Because we just happen to work with that, really. And that's all it is. In simple terms, that's what we do.

And why do you think... Because if people don't really have a clue, and stuff, there's quite a lot of, maybe, head-in-the-sand attitudes sometimes, or like you said, they take out a pension, because they think that's what they have to do, but don't really have a full understanding of it. Under those circumstances, why do people go for your company? What do you think, that you do, that reassures people immediately?

We're different in the sense that... If you look at our website, there's a photograph of an eight-year-old boy on there, and we say, very clearly, "Look, we will explain this so that an eight-year-old can understand it." And that's, generally, what we try and do. We try and break it down so that it's simple, it's straightforward. Because, actually, personal finance, when you do break it down, it's not that scary. It's actually quite straightforward. There only, really, three things you can change. How long you save for, how much you save, and how much risk you take. And when we break that down, we distil it into those three things.

And we talk to the client. We talk to them quite a lot about risk, and how much... I call it the "Goldilocks approach." You don't want to take too much risk, you don't want to take too little risk. We want to get it just right. Once we've got that bit sorted, and we know what lifestyle they planned to lead when they get to whatever age they decide they want to retire at, we then work out, "Okay. Based on how much risk you want to take, based on how long we've got, basically, I can tell you how much you need to save." Essentially, that's all it is. But we do that in a way that, like I said, an eight-year-old could understand it.

Yeah. I loved your website. I went and had a good look around. You've got a video on there, with you talking. Tell us, what do you say in your video, that made me smile?

Basically, I've got this thing about financial advisors. And the stereotype is that they're generally male. They're generally grey. They're generally in their fifties, boring. And we say on the website, "Look, none of us wear Rolexes. We don't drive Ferraris. And there's nobody in the office called Tarquin." Yeah. We play on that a little bit, because, again, I think it just breaks down those barriers. And people know them, what they can expect when they speak to myself, or one of my colleagues. We are not going to talk jargon at them for an hour and a half. We talk to them about what they want to talk about. We let them set the agenda.

I think that puts people at ease. And then, they're more likely, then, to tell us the things that we actually need, and all boring stuff, like, "Where do you work?" We let them do that behind the scenes. We've got a portal, and we let them log in, and they can fill all that stuff in later. But when we spend time with them, when I sit in front of clients, I just talk about what they want, and what their aspirations are. And that tends to engage them. And they give us a lot more then, and we can help them better.

See, I think every business can learn lessons from this. You talked about putting people at their ease. I think it's about creating trust, really. If you're pledging your financial management to somebody, trust is clearly the main thing the customer need to be feeling. But actually, that works with any business, I would think. You've got to trust the person who's providing the service, or selling you the product, or it's not going to land. Is that the deal?

Absolutely. And particularly in our industry, people, essentially, entrust in us with their life savings, [inaudible 00:07:20] a pension. It's exactly that. It's your life savings. And if you get it wrong, there are a couple of things that are going to happen. You're either going to have to work longer, or you're going to have to live a diminished lifestyle as a result of not having enough money. We're acutely aware of that. And our job, and our mission, is to make sure... And I don't want to sound corny about this, but we just want to make sure that we get it right, because we care. And if that comes across in that first meeting. Then they will sign up, and they'll work with us. And that's what we try and do, really. I try to give them something as well, something that they can leave the meeting, understanding. "Actually, this isn't as difficult as I, perhaps, thought it was."

Brilliant. You've been running your business since, I think... Is it 2008 you started?

Yes. Yeah, 2008.

What were you doing before then?

It was a bit of a story. I tell this quite a lot. I went to university and studied to be a pharmacist. I left in 2001, after finishing the course. And I embarked on a journey, or a career as a hospital pharmacist. And I worked in a large teaching hospital. I enjoyed that job very much. At the time, I started buying properties. I got interested in buying properties. And as a result of being interested in that, I surround my friends with doctors. They all started asking me, "How did you do it?" And I started, informally, advising them. And we were having chats in the tearoom, and at lunch breaks and things. Yeah. I worked my way through the ranks. Everyone will know what the NHS is like. But as you get more senior, you find yourself working weekends, and Christmas, and stuff.

And in 2008, we had our first daughter, Charlotte. My wife's also a pharmacist. And she wanted to give up work to look after Charlotte. Ultimately, the need was to replace her income. What I did, I said, "I really like doing this. I've been doing it for free. Let's see if I can turn it into a business." And that's what I did. I did that for a couple of years. And we grew fairly significantly. And I really enjoyed doing it because... Like I said, as a pharmacist, you are helping people out, and doing this. I was also helping people out. And I've got the business established, and there were three or four other guys working with me. And it came to a point where I wanted to take Charlotte and my son, that we had at the time, a couple of years later... We wanted to go to Disney.

I wanted four weeks off, because we wanted to go to Disney. We wanted to go on a cruise afterwards. And I just couldn't get the time off because of my position in the hospital. And I thought, as much as I love this job, I think, actually, it's time to think about doing something else. That's what I did. I left the NHS. Everyone thought I was mad. My parents thought I was absolutely bonkers. And I left the NHS with this great job, and I went to do this full time. Yeah. That was the story, really. A lot of what I learned, as a pharmacist, like I said, looking after people's health, and now, I'm looking after people's wealth, that wasn't pre-planned. That just came out. It's the same sort of thing, really. You're just looking after people. And as long as you, actually, and I think this is quite important, care about the people you're working with, then, actually, it's quite easy.

I think that's really interesting, to talk about... Coming from that caring background, and to be working with clients now, health and wealth, and all of that stuff, but it is about caring. And I think that really comes across with you, maybe more than other people. I'll put you on the spot. What would you say your personal values are? And do you think that they're the same for your business?

Absolutely. 100%. They have to be done there. Because otherwise, you're a fraud to yourself. You're a fraud to the business. When I take on a new financial advisor, the very simple advice I give them on day one is, "Look, if you wouldn't recommend that your mom or your granny does this, then you don't recommend it." Simple as that. If it's not the right thing to do... It's difficult. Because the right thing to do is very different in different circumstances. But ultimately, that's the best personal value you can have. Don't recommend something unless you tell your mom or your dad, or your brother, or your sister to do, as long as you get [inaudible 00:12:04]. But just don't do it, unless it's the right thing to do. As long as you go into work thinking like that, ultimately, you'll never ever get it wrong. We've been going since 2008, we've never had a complaint. I don't envisage just having a complaint. I'm not being cocky or arrogant here. It's just because you have those values. As you know, financial advisors don't have the best kudos.

They are viewed with suspicion. In the eighties, they were allowed to get away with murder, not literally, but financial murder. They could pretty much do what they want, charged what they want. Returns will regardless... And then, obviously, the FCA came in, and they tidied all of that up. They made all financial advisors do a diploma. And that got rid of a lot of people because it was difficult, and it took some time to do. Since that, I think the industry has self-regulated itself. But ultimately, if you've got the values that we talked about earlier, you don't really need the regulation. But it is there to protect the consumer against the odd rogue that still lies out there. And we've seen the British Steel scandal recently, where financial advisors were talking people into moving their pensions, pretty much, for their financial gain, not the clients'. And that's a bad example of where it does go wrong. Yeah. I wouldn't have recommended that. I didn't recommend any British Steel transfers. And I suppose it sums that up.

Mm-hmm. Definitely. Family's, obviously, really important to you. It's not a family business, but your family values are in there as well. You talked about, "Don't do something you wouldn't recommend to your wife, or your mom," or something like that. How important do you think is your family background? You're a family man. You've got kids. You've got a dog, I think?

Yeah. I've got a crazy spring of Spaniel, who... We could be fine walking down... We live in Gallipoli Peninsula. Yeah. Often, we were there on the weekend, walking her. Yeah. I think family is really important. As I said earlier, the whole reason I started the business was linked to the family. I fit the business in with the family, not the other way round. Again, when I started, that was different. But now, obviously, we're established. We've got lots of good clients. For instance, I don't work on a Friday afternoon. I never work weekends. I don't work Christmas.

I make sure I have all the school holidays off with the kids, so that we can go somewhere nice, or at least, I can spend time with them. Yeah. Family's really important. I've said to you before, my youngest son plays rugby. And I coach their side, so I make sure I spend four or five hours a week coaching rugby. And then, I make sure I always watch them. Having your own business is a pleasure and a curse, isn't it? I always go to the activities, and the sports days, and things like that, because the business, now, can fit in with that. Yeah, family's really, really important to me, always has been.

Katie Flamman 15:03:

I think that's also a good place to be coming from, a good place of grounding. You're putting your family first. You're also putting your clients' families first, essentially, by the service you offer them. I think what I'm trying to do with this series, really, is find out how businesses use storytelling in their marketing. And I think what you do with your business, from what I've gained from speaking to you, and what I've gained from looking at your website, is that the story that you tell in your business is, really, the story of Dai. It's right there, isn't it? It's all one and the same thing.

Yeah. I suppose it is. And ultimately, everyone's got a story of Dai, or of Katie. Yeah, it is. It's always the same, isn't it? You go to school, you leave school, you get a job, you get a house. If you're lucky enough, you buy a house. Also, if you're lucky enough, you get kids. You look after them, they leave. There's a financial journey that we all go on. Largely, it's similar. And some people have better time along the way than others. But ultimately, it doesn't matter. I'll give you an example. Last week, I spoke to a guy who had 7 million pounds to invest. And he was in his early sixties.

And I spoke to another gentleman, who's in his mid-seventies, who was still working because, again, he'd been let down by a financial advisor. And he had, I think, 50,000 pounds to invest. But they both had the same treatment because, ultimately... And again, you could look at them and say, "They're on the same path," but they're not. Because the multimillionaires got very different issues to solve than the gentleman who's still driving a bus in his mid-seventies. Every day is different. Every client is different. But like I said, as long as you go back to those core values, you always end up with the best result. And I think, hopefully, that's answered that question. But yeah.

What do you love about your job?

People. I've always loved speaking to people. I love being around people. I like getting to learn about people's aspirations. Since 2008 was that... It's getting on for 20 years now. I've seen clients that I've taken on, that they've had their first mortgages. You see their kids coming into the world. You work on things to help them pay for things for their kids, whether that be a private education, or for them to buy their first home. I've seen people retiring. They were working when I started. Because if you do look after clients, they're clients for life. And I've never lost a client. Once I get a client, I never lost them. Going on that journey with them and... At Christmastime, there was a knock on the door, and someone dropped a... There was a hamper for us. And my wife's like, "Oh my gosh, this is brilliant. It should be the other way round. You should be sending your client..."

Which we do, by the way. But to get stuff off clients at that time of year just goes to show that they do become friends. And again, I don't want it to sound corny, because it's not, because they generally are friends. You are looking after their life savings. And you are helping them reach their goals and their dreams. And often, it does go well if people plan their finances properly. It does go well. It hasn't gone that well in the last 12 months, has it? But everyone knows where they are. We talk to people so they understand what's going on. And then, actually, the journey becomes easier. It's a blip along the way. It's not a catastrophe. Yeah. That's why I enjoy [inaudible 00:18:58]. I just like being with people.

That's a lovely answer. Just going back to what you said about coaching the rugby, and the kids, is there anything you've learned from doing that, that you are able to put into practise, in your business?

Gosh, that's a good question. One thing, and again, this is probably the biggest takeaway, is that kids are not little adults. I've also got a teenage girl now, so that's another manifestation of that. Kids are certainly not little adults.

Yeah. They're a whole new species, teenage girls.

No, absolutely. We talked earlier about having different clients, but in a rugby club environment, you get lots of different kinds of kids. You get kids that are from affluent backgrounds, you get kids that are from one-parent families. I think what I have learned is understanding how to speak to different people. The aspirations of a single parent mom in a rented house is very different to two [inaudible 00:20:03] children with... "How am I going to pay for the university? How am I going to make sure they get their first car and house?" And then, the single mom may be thinking, "How am I going to feed them next week?" Getting used to different people, I think, has been a good learn, actually, from being in that environment. And I've played rugby all my life.

It's interesting when you're on the other end. Again, it sounds a bit weird, but we like the second dad. And some of them don't know their dads. And we are the only male figures they have in their lives. And again, it goes back to that respect, doesn't it? And the things that you try and [inaudible 00:20:46] in these kids, the manners... Because rugby's all about that. Yeah. It's a tough game. It's a very tough sport. But it's all about discipline and respect. And some of these kids don't have that when they first turn up. Yeah. I've learned a lot from coaching rugby, but mainly, it's how to talk to different little human beings. And you hone your skills, I suppose, in order to get them to do what you need them to do, in order to be good rugby players.

And are they good rugby players?

They are, actually. Yeah. We've got under twelves level, which they are at the minute. The year before, they go to play what's called representative rugby i Wales. You get to play... It's called School Boys' Rugby, School Girls' Rugby. And ultimately, you go to trials. If you're good enough, you get selected. I think we've got 28 kids in our side, 15 of them, last year, got selected for School Boys, which is like a club record. Yeah, they are good. They're very good. They work hard. I made a lovely bunch of kids. And they love the game, which helps. Yeah, they are. They're very good. They got to the final. They played in a competition. And they actually got to the final. And they got to play at the Millennium Stadium

Katie Flamman 22:00:

Wow, that's amazing.

That was a great day out. Yeah. That was pretty fun. And we sponsor the clubs as well. I'm fully, fully, fully loaded with the rugby for the next couple of years, I think.

Definitely. I think you're stuck there. Oh, that's brilliant. What a great story. I think we've covered all kinds of stuff, but I just wanted to know, which direction do you think your story's going to take in the next three to five years, your business, or your life? It's quite a big chunk of time to ask about, but what do you reckon?

One thing, going back to the rugby thing that we talked about, there was something that horrified me, not so long ago, we... Excuse me. We're also playing a team called Georgia down in the Millennium Stadium. I arranged for all the kids to go down and watch the game. Okay. And we took 250 families, the kids and moms, and dads from the club, down to Cardiff, which is about an hour's drive, wherever it is. Some of the kids weren't going from our section. And when I dug around a little bit and found out that it was, essentially, because they couldn't afford to go. When I dug a little bit deeper, I found that not only could they not afford to go, some of these mums are struggling to feed their kids, which absolutely horrified me. What I'd like to do is... The business is in a position, now, where we can start to give some stuff back. What I'd really like to be in the position to... I don't want any kids to be hungry.

And again, even saying it, I get quite emotional about it, because they shouldn't be kids, living around me, that the parents can't afford to feed them. I want to try and do something around that. I want to do two things. I want to educate kids in school about money, because I think, and sorry if there are any teachers listening, that the coaching that they get in school is woefully inadequate. And it's not difficult to teach kids about interest, about savings, about not using credit cards, not getting into debt, not using payday loans, all of these traps that are out there. And they marketed a weak and vulnerable members of our society. I'd like to do that. I'd like to put a programme together, totally for free, without earning any money from it, where we teach kids about money. Because I think we should. I think it's as important as English and math, and literacy. For me, it is, anyway. I'd like to do that.

And I'd like to do something whereby... You can't give money to charities, because ultimately... You can, but I don't think that will fix that particular problem. Working out in a local community, how the business can fund things, like... We've thought about doing things like HelloFresh. Again, I know there are other gusto, there are other people available, that deliver food, but sponsoring things like that so that there aren't kids going hungry. If you're doing well in life, you [inaudible 00:25:14] live in this little bubble, can't you? You're not aware of it. But because of what I do with the rugby, I do come across, like I said, all sorts of kids in different backgrounds. I was horrified. That was only in November last year. It just literally horrified me. We talked about it. And a couple of other businesses that I know got together, and we said, "All right. Okay. How are we going to fix this?" Yeah. That is something I'd be very keen to do that, on the kids' education and stuff.

That's a really inspirational five-year plan. That's incredible.

It will happen. We just got to work out how best to do it. Because I've already spoken to a couple of schools. And initially, they're a little bit, I don't know, reticent about... I don't know why. I do know why. They've got to protect the kids. And some bloke turning up, like me, saying, "Oh, I've got to come and talk to the kids about finance," probably is a little bit off-putting. But I think we've just got to break down a few barriers, and then we'll get it sorted.

Definitely. They have health education, don't they? They have cooking sometimes, and all that kind of stuff. Why not financial education too?

Absolutely. And I think it should be part of the curriculum. And somebody might say, "It already is." It may be, yeah, but I want to do it the Dai Rose way. I don't want to do it how Tarquin would do it. I want to do how Dai Rose would do it. Because I think the kids will engage. As long as they're eight years old, they'll be able to understand it, because they'll get no different treatment to my 50, 60 year old clients would.

Love it.

That's the plan.

That's fantastic. I think we'll finish there, Dai. That's amazing. Thank you so, so much for talking to me.

No problems. Thank you very much.

Let's check out the key takeaways from this episode. One, there are some jobs which conjure up stereotypes, traffic wardens, politicians, financial advisors. It doesn't matter if it's fair or not, people will make assumptions about you because of the job you do. If you're trying to get a particular message across, you could be at a disadvantage before you've even opened your mouth. Dai Rose addresses that head-on, saying there's no Rolexes or Tarquins in his office. He uses humour and honesty to make a connection with his audience, and cut through any preconceptions they might have. Two, what shone through in the interview is that Dai was just being himself. He's authentic and real, which, I suspect, is why his business is so successful. The interview is a case study for the marketing concept of know, like, and trust. I feel we got to know Dai during the interview. I certainly found him likeable.

And that leads to trust. And people are more likely to buy from a brand that they have a relationship with. Three, I think there's a powerful link between business storytelling and corporate social responsibility. CSR is about your values and ethics. You, the business owner, and you, the human being. In Dai's case, he's combining his work as a kid's rugby coach with his work as a financial advisor, helping the children in his community. He's supporting the poorest kids by, literally, supplying food and funding activities, but he's also hatching plans for the future, to educate them and improve their prospects. The stories Dai told were inspiring and thought-provoking. And that's storytelling at its best. I'm not sure how it happened, but we've almost got to the end of the series. Just one episode left.

I really do hope this Storytelling For Business journey of discovery has been useful for you. I've certainly learned a huge amount from all my amazing guests this series. For our last episode, I thought it would be really useful to summarise everything we found out, and give you a list of actionable tips to help you be the best business storyteller around. And, lucky listener, I've pulled it all together in episode nine, Toolkit of Storytelling Takeaways. And it's ready when you are. But for now, there's just time to say another huge thanks to Dai Rose, from Sterling Welsh. If you are looking for straight talking financial advice that an eight-year-old can understand, please get in touch with Dai and his team. The contact details and Sterling Welsh's website address are in the show notes. Just don't ask for Tarquin. I'm Katie Flamman, and this is Storytelling For Business. Until next time, goodbye.