Welcome to Theology Throwdown.

We, the Christian podcast community of podcasters.

Gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

Well, welcome to another edition of Theology Throwdown, where we, those different podcasters from the Christian podcast community, get together and discuss.

Well, like we said in the intro, there are theological differences, but we try to do it in love and charity.

And so tonight's topic is one that, for more Reformed circles, the discussions between the regulative principle and the normative principle.

What are they?

Well, we will define them and then get into discussing, well, what the different views may be.

Amongst those who join us, we will start.

So that's what we're going to discuss, but we're going to start.

So you, as an audience member, get to hear a voice and say, hey, now I know whose voice that is, because we're not always so good at mentioning each other's names, but we try.

And so we will start with the different podcasters who are here.

Others will probably be coming and going, but, Rebecca, you were first in, so if you don't mind introducing yourself and your podcast.

Yes.

Hi, I am Rebecca Burschwinger, and I am the host of One Little Candle.

One Little Candle is a monthly podcast that is dedicated.

Dedicated to equipping believers with the practical tools and biblical wisdom they need to navigate cultural challenges and stand in their faith.

I examine things, you know, through a biblical lens, issues that affect our Christian walk so that the listener can be a light in the darkness, According to Matthew 5, 15, and 16, no matter how small that their sphere of influence might seem.

You know, I was just thinking this, but was your maiden name something like Smith?

Something like really easy, like Brown?

And then you married someone with a really long last name?

Yeah, no, it was Purcell.

Okay.

I mean, it's just I look at your last name and I realize, like, my poor bride, her first, middle last name.

Well, I say middle, but in.

In the Asian culture, that she just doesn't have a middle name.

She has got two first names, but her entire name, maiden name.

My last name is one character longer than her entire maiden name.

And so she was like, it's a bit long.

Yeah.

She was like, can you just take my name?

Can you?

I'm like, yeah, I don't think I look like an Ing.

You know, just, you know.

All right, Eve, you were.

You were in next, if you don't mind.

So if folks can hear your voice introducing yourself in your podcast.

Certainly.

I'm Eve Franklin, and I co host the podcast are you just watching?

In which we talk about entertainment from a Christian worldview.

So we take, every month we take a movie and we.

Or sometimes commercials or other things that people entertain themselves with and we look for the major themes and show how that fits with a biblical worldview.

And we're not in it to.

To completely, you know, destroy Hollywood and say how awful there are.

We tend to only review movies that we enjoy, but we're showing how we can live in the world but not be a part of the world and, you know, imbibe the entertainment of the world with our critical thinking glasses on and not let it change who we are as Christians.

And even for me, who is an individual who.

Well, I'm completely and utterly pop culture illiterate and don't know movies whatsoever.

I listen to your podcast all the time and enjoy it even if I don't watch the movies.

I get to see a lot of what is being taught in, in different movies and at the same time see the critical thinking applied, which can then be applied to other things.

So it's.

Even if you're not an avid moviegoer, there's still a lot you can learn from watching or listening to.

Are you just watching?

So the next up is AM Brewster, if you wouldn't mind introducing yourself.

So folks, hear your voice and your two podcasts.

I would not mind at all.

My name is Aaron Brewster.

I am the president of Evermind Ministries.

One of our ministries is called the year long Celebration of God and has a podcast called the Celebration of God.

It's all about personal discipleship as well as corporate worship.

And it's about how we can worship God better today, this year than I did the year before.

And we focus a lot on not only the high holy days, the holidays, as it were, in the Christian calendar, but also on the average Thursdays on those normal times where so often we're not actively thinking so much as we should about glorifying God as we are, you know, perhaps on Easter Sunday.

Then there's another ministry part of Evermind called Truth Love Family.

Excuse me.

And one of the.

Our podcast for Truth Love Family is called Truth Love Parent.

And we focus on equipping dads and moms to better worship God in their parenting.

Because the idea is that I don't parent because of what I want.

I don't parent to get something out of my kids, to have them become something.

I parent the way I do because God wants me to.

And as an act of worship to him.

And we're talking about worship tonight.

So I think this is really fitting as an act of worship to him.

I have to parent the way he wants me to, even if it doesn't produce in my children what I would like to see produced.

So those two podcasts are out there.

The celebration of God and Truth.

Love, Parent.

And I am coming up on our 600th episode.

Oh, parents.

Super excited about that.

Nice.

You can do anything special.

Nope, just plugging along.

Our 600th episode will be, I think, the beginning of our 33rd season.

So I think.

I don't know that I necessarily have that planned out just yet.

I'm double checking my notes as I'm saying this.

Episode 600.

Yep, episode 600 is going to be the first episode of our 33rd season and Lord willing, will happen in October.

So I still have to figure out I might do something special.

I don't know.

All right.

And I am the host of.

Well, I'm Andrew Rappaport, the president of Striving for Eternity and the Christian podcast community, of which, well, this podcast is one of the proud members with all the others you heard.

I have a couple of podcasts on the Christian podcast community.

One that I do that's pre recorded, usually about an hour, is Andrew Rapaport's Rap Report.

So rap with two P's.

It has nothing to do with rap music.

After my very first episode, I just called it Rap Report and some guy contacted me and said, this has nothing to do with rap music.

No, it has two P's in it.

So I added my name so that it removed the confusion and got people to see what the play on my name was.

So that one deals with biblical interpretations and applications for the Christian life.

I do another on Thursday nights that is a live stream stream called Apologetics Live.

You can watch that live or even afterwards or listen to the podcast version.

Just go to apologeticslive.com and that tells you how to connect with us.

And you can go there and ask any question on a Thursday night, eight o', clock, New York City time, and ask any question you want about God in the Bible.

I have an answer for you.

And it might just be I don't know, but I do have an answer.

So that is one thing that' more fun podcast because sometimes people come in, they're prepared to debate me and I don't know I'm debating that night.

So it's like they're all studied up and I'm not.

It's fun.

I'm just nuts.

All right, so let, let's look into this, the area that we're discussing.

And the person who wanted this.

I should, I should say this up front so that it's recorded.

The person who asked for this to be the topic is not here tonight.

And so we, we may end up all being in agreement.

We're going to find out and maybe others will come in at disagree, but we'll see.

But within the styles of worship, there are two in worship.

This is a side.

I'll try not to get on a soapbox.

When we say worship in church, it is much more than just the songs you sing.

But what this is referring to when we talk to regulatory principle or normative principle is dealing with worship styles.

It's referring to how you go about doing usually the music.

Some will extend it to the entire worship service.

But everything you're doing in church should be worship.

Whether it is the singing of songs, the praying, the praise, the reading and proclamation of the word, the fellowship, the giving.

All of that should be an act of worship.

So generally, though, this is talking about the issue of music styles, music instruments, things like that.

And so let me give a definition that we have that we're going to work off of for tonight.

The regulatory principle, it could be defined as we worship only as God commands.

Where the normative principle is, we worship in any way not forbidden by Scripture.

So the, the regulatory principle is regulating the worship service to limit it to the explicit or sometimes implicit commands of God.

So you basically would think of it this way.

The regulatory principle, you can't do anything.

That's not clear from Scripture.

Where the normative principle says you could do anything as long as it's not forbidden from scripture.

So what you have here is can you, can you use drums in a worship service?

The regulatory principle would say no, because it's not explicit in scripture that you should do that.

Where the normative principle would say, there's nothing in scripture says you can't do that.

So there's just an example to just see.

You can see.

And we'll, we'll probably discuss a bit more.

So with that in mind, I just want to, you know, throw this out and ask the question of, of each of you guys.

I know for, for those who are here, some were like, well, I really haven't thought about this before.

So this may be one of those questions where, gee, there's not lots of discussion that you'll have.

But let me.

I'll start with Rebecca.

What, you know, what is your, your thoughts when it comes to the regulatory regulative principle?

Well, yeah, I was not familiar at all with the term regulative or normative until I got the email about this episode.

But so in doing some reading up on it, I, I have heard of churches that, as you had said, mentioned, you mentioned no drums, churches that don't use instruments, churches that only sing the psalms.

And my, my first thought as far as that goes is, well, I kind of would search the Bible and say, what does the Bible say about it?

And I know the Bible gives us commands.

As far as our corporate gathering, which is, you stated, Andrew, it's all worship.

It's not just, you know, the worship team or singing or anything.

But in my opinion, I would have to say kind of, I can understand where they're coming from.

They want to be true to scripture and that's, that's good.

We should always be true to scripture.

But I do feel that I just get a legalistic kind of vibe from it when I think about it.

I mean, I guess there's dangers with either one.

You could take either one too far.

I think extremes are bad.

So, you know, I, like I said, I, I would have to fall as probably more favoring the normative principle when it comes to this.

Eve.

How about you?

You, I think you were on the same boat when we as admins were discussing it.

I'll just give a hint.

It's the other admin that, that requested the topic.

So now if you know who the admins are, you know who requested it.

And if you don't, you're just gonna go back to past episodes of the theology throw down till you find out who that is.

But the other admin had suggested it.

You didn't.

You were kind of like Rebecca here, but you've done a little bit of study.

What are your thoughts so far on it?

Well, I'd say I'm definitely normative.

I, I think it's.

Comes under, to be honest.

I think it, it kind of comes across as, as, you know, a choice between legalism and freedom.

And I think as Christians we're, we're given freedom to do what isn't forbidden.

And I feel like so many of the churches try to toe a line that isn't there.

And it, to me it comes across as far as, how would you say?

Pharaoh.

Yeah.

Pharisaical.

And Jesus actually didn't have very nice things to say about the people who, you know, were doing, you know, following rules and laws and instead of, you know, the imbibing the spirit and having, you know, a real relationship with the Lord instead of just appearing to other people and making it a public thing that, hey, look at me, I'm more righteous than you.

And I think that some, a lot of that kind of like putting a lot of rules into the way we do church and the way we do worship gets very close to that in, in my opinion.

Well, you know, I think that.

It.

Is interesting that you bring up the, the.

And I, the idea of a legalism with it.

I want, I don't think that they would see it as a legalism, but, you know, the Pharisees didn't see what they did as legalism, but Jesus did say to do what the Pharisees say.

So they weren't opposed to what the Pharisees said.

Just.

Just kidding.

All right, Aaron, what would be your views?

And.

And you had an idea of why this is more tied to Reformed theology?

Yeah.

A couple thoughts.

First, I'm glad you said what you said.

And this is.

Maybe we're just going to disagree with charity, but I'm very hesitant to use too casually the term legalism only because legalism as biblically defined is an earning of salvation.

You earn God's favor by doing these things.

Right.

And.

But we also see in Scripture that, you know, the, the higher standard.

God says, be holy as I am holy.

Right?

So a high standard, a higher standard isn't always legalism.

Sometimes it's the right thing to do.

Sometimes there are people who have lower standards who are more legalistic than people with higher standards.

Right.

So I think I would be hesitant necessarily to toss that out there.

I think that there is, in fact, the Bible says that a wise man sees temptation afar off and he hides himself from it.

Right?

So the Pharisees and the scribes who said, hey, listen, God clearly says we shouldn't do this, right?

We shouldn't commit adultery.

So therefore, let's not go anywhere near the brothels.

Right?

That's good.

Like we, we encourage that.

That's good type of behavior.

We need to be thinking wisely like that.

However, legalism becomes.

And the Phariseeism becomes.

When we cross that next line and we now say, and if you happen, because you're at 7:11 and you walk by a brothel on your way home, you have sinned and God is displeased with you.

Now we're putting things into the scripture that aren't there.

So I would say that somebody who ascribes to the regulative principle, let's just say, you know, we don't read poetry or we don't have Church cantatas, because we don't see that in the Scripture, right?

If they're saying we don't do that, and here's the reason we don't do it, we're trying to glorify God.

We, we think that he's pleased with this.

But if you do one, I'm not going to say you are in sin, right?

Then I would say that they're in a really good spot.

However, I think they cross into legalism when they thus, you know, they start saying thus saith the Lord when he hasn't.

Thus, Seth.

With that said, I do fall under the normative principle, but I have, as you can tell already, I do have a heart for the regulative principle.

In my, in my sinful nature, maybe not in my sinful nature, in my humanity.

I want things to be cut and dry.

I want to know what's right, what's wrong, just tell me.

I don't, I don't like the subjectivity.

I don't like the gray areas.

Just let me know what I should and shouldn't do in that decision making process.

I'm in that with standards.

It's just very easy for me to be that.

It would be very easy for me to be a, a good version of the Pharisees and a sinful version of the Pharisees because of my, because of who I am.

So I definitely understand the mindset that would go in that direction.

However, biblically speaking, I can't say that the regulative principle is an absolute must.

I think there's liberty.

And if somebody chooses to define their corporate worship time using the regulative principle, I'm not going to say they're sinning.

I'm just going to say that I disagree with them.

Now, this is the question that you asked, Andrew, about my observation about one's theology and then how it works out and how it may impact the regular principle, use of it or otherwise.

As you mentioned earlier too, this discussion of the regular principle happens mostly within the context of, as far as I understand it, churches that would be considered Reformed.

But then also part of that being Reformed in a lot of these circles also involves being covenant theology.

Whether it's progressive covenantalism or just a traditional historical covenant, the theology.

That's where a lot of these conversations are happening.

That's what I've noticed.

And in a way that doesn't surprise me, a covenant theologian sees that the nation of Israel and the church are one thing.

They are.

They're not inseparable.

You don't Have a separate thing, the church and the separate thing, Israel, the ethnic Israel.

And so it's not surprising to me from that perspective why they would see why they would put more significance on the Old Testament teaching concerning, concerning worship.

Because there's a lot more.

I mean most of the regulative principle ideas are pulled from the Old Testament and the commandments of the law, right.

Then they pull out of the New Testament.

A lot of them do come from the New Testament, but a ton are pulled from the Old Testament.

And I wonder, I'm not saying for certain, but I wonder if in part some of the regulative principle is moored a little bit on this idea, this belief that we are the church and Israel were the same thing and that how they were commanded to worship back then needs to have a far more significance to how we worship today because of that connection.

Again, could totally be wrong, but it's definitely something I've noticed.

Well, let me in love, push back a little with your definition of legalism.

I'm going to read from the Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology so that these are not my words but.

And, and this is page 478.

But it says this legalism, the term, the term legalism commonly denotes the preoccupation with form at the expense of substance.

So it's not so much about salvation.

You might have added too much there.

So maybe according, at least according to the dictionary, the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology.

Eve would be right in her usage of it.

Now I could look at some other dictionaries if you'd like.

That's interesting.

No, I mean I, I definitely am surprised to hear that, but it, in another sense it doesn't surprise me.

Sure, I guess that makes sense.

But I'll do some research but.

And I'll see if I can quote something later on.

Well, we do know that I have my Logos Bible software, so I'm quick with it.

You are quick and I'm content to, to be proven wrong on that.

I, I don't, I'm not as familiar with the, you know, the, the argument either way.

And so it, for me it feels like if you're going to be so legalistic about how you worship, then that's legalism.

But maybe that's me just use you loosely using a term that doesn't fit.

Well, I, I think, I would think that you use the word correctly because it is it.

Now whether it applies, that would be separate.

But the idea of where it becomes more about the way you're doing something than the substance of what you're doing right, this was what the Pharisees did often is to focus on their man made laws versus what God was trying to say.

You see it with Mary and Martha.

So yeah, so I, I would say that, you know, where do we get these principles of the regulative principle?

I think you, you find them in the Westminster Convention.

I mean it's, it's going to be rooted in, in the Reformation.

It comes really out of the Westminster Confession.

Now let me be clear.

I don't think that just because something is documented in the Westminster Confession that that's when it was first occurred and therefore it was not from the early church and not true.

Because that, I'm not saying that I, I do think that's a bad argument to make.

I hear people make that against dispensational.

Oh, it's new.

Not really.

It's just as, as time marches on we get more and more precise with our theology.

And so by the time of the Reformation there was debate over worships, the way to, to do the worship service.

And therefore this became a debate and a topic.

So, so yeah, I would, I, I think if there is something in between the two, maybe that's where I would be.

I mean they sound mutually exclusive, but maybe they're not.

I, I'm, I'm not real hard and fast either way.

Now I will say this, if you would like to get a resource that is going to be supportive of the regulative principle, there is a film done by a friend of mine, Les Lands Fear and it is, it is called, called Spirit and Truth.

And for full disclosure, I am one of the, the many people who donated to the film and, and helped get it out there.

So, and, and one of the things that Les said to me, he, he thought it was very shocking, remarkable that I would support a film that holds to a view that I don't really hold to.

But I think he, you know, he, he did a good representation of the regulative principle and therefore I thought it was good for Christians to have the discussion.

You don't have to agree with it, but at least you can get a good honest view of what that position holds to.

And so that's why I was willing to support that film.

So I would be more of the normative principle type of, type of, of position.

Now Aaron, you mentioned some Old Testament texts that are used for the, the, the argument.

Are there any in mind that you have that you would see people using?

Sorry, my took, took my finger a second to find my mute button.

The one that comes to mind right off the top of my head is the focus that a lot of these churches have on singing the psalms.

Not that they necessarily ignore other songs.

And I know there's a passage in the New Testament singing songs and hymns and spiritual songs, but a lot of the arguments that I've heard for the importance of singing the psalms come, comes from the fact that that's was.

That was a key part of the temple worship and the psalms were sung.

And as far as we know, that was all that was sung in that temple worship.

Okay.

And so that gets us into a discussion.

Some of the, usually you see it Reformed or, or Presbyterian churches where what they will do is only sing hymns.

Sorry, sorry.

Psalms in church, because that's what the Bible has.

Now that is taking it to, you know, to a further extent.

Not everyone who holds to a regulative principle will only sing psalms, but some do.

So just to be aware there are differences of people that hold to this that, you know, would see the, the differences.

I think it's the, the only thing that, that bothers me because there are songs elsewhere in the Bible that are recorded in the Bible.

There's some in Exodus, I believe, and there's some elsewhere other than psalms.

But beyond that, the.

I know it's actually a really good thing to, you know, psalms have been put to music and it's really good to sing them and it's good to pray them as well because there's a lot of really good, you know, upward communication with God in the psalms that, that work really well as prayers.

But there, that's also very regulated.

And I, and I feel like if you're saying only do this, then.

I.

Guess that's where I get the term legalistic because then it takes away from, you know, all the other really good ways that we have to both pray and sing to God.

Because worship, the act of singing communally is, in a way, it's praising God.

It's a type of prayer.

And if we limit ourselves to just what the psalms have written, then other people might have words of wisdom to give in a prayer form or as a song form.

And you're striking all of that away simply because it's not in the Bible.

So I guess that's, that's where the problem I would have with the regulatory, you know, principle is the only the same way I have problems with people who choose a single version of the Bible to read.

And translation of the Bible, I should say, as being the only word of God, because translations are translations but we won't get into that.

So let me be the one to argue for a regulative principle, since no one else here, since none of us hold to that, but someone needs to be able to defend it.

And since, well, as a good debater, I have been trained to be able to debate positions I don't hold to.

So I will take the side of regulative principle, maybe just for partial part for this discussion.

So let me give some passages that are used to argue for regulative principle.

Aaron, you mentioned some Old Testament ones.

Well, this is pretty far back in the Old Testament is Leviticus 10:1,2.

Let me read that one.

It says, then Nahab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective fire pans and put fire in them.

Then they placed incense on it and offered strange fire before Yahweh which he had not commanded them.

The fire came out of the presence of Yahweh and consumed them, and they died before Yahweh.

So the argument that would be made here is that what you clearly see is that they were doing something that was not that, that was not explicitly allowed.

And therefore by putting a strange fire, there was nothing in scripture that said they couldn't do it.

But there was, there was nothing in scripture that said they could do it.

So the regulative principal would say, well, see, they did something that they should not have done because it wasn't explicit in Scripture.

Another example again from the Pentateuch is Deuteronomy.

This would be chapter 12 in verse 32.

And it says, whatever I am commanding you, you shall be careful to do.

You shall not add, nor add to, nor take away from it.

So here would be the argument to say out of the Old Testament that you, you shouldn't be adding to how God would want to be worshiped.

So you say, okay, is there anything in the New Testament?

Well, a passage that some would turn to is John, chapter 4, verses 24.

This is Jesus speaking to the woman at the well, part of this discussion is she is a Samaritan.

So they had a set up worship in Samaria to the God that brought them out of Egypt.

And so though it is the the same God in that sense, they have a different form of worship.

And Jesus says to her, God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.

And so those that hold to regulative principles, some would look at this and say that Jesus was condemning the worship of the true God in a false way, a way that scripture did not explicitly say.

To do now, I would, I would have to challenge the last one a bit, even though I've seen people use it only because I think the first two, you can make a good argument.

But this one in John, I personally think the issue there is that we do have the condemnation over and over and over again of the worship of Samaria, the worship of idols, setting up a different place of worship other than Jerusalem.

So there was the condemnation of that.

And so if you use the John 4, I just.

From the regulative principle, I don't think it's a good argument only because it can fit very easily with the normative.

It's not a one or the other type of argument.

Just a thought.

So let me open that up to you guys to see if any of you.

And I'll just open up to any of you that would disagree with the usage of those passages.

I'll jump in here real quick.

How do I know that?

I don't know.

I won't.

I'm not sure I'm going to speak exactly to any of those particular passages so much as I would.

I always like to ask the question, where's the line?

The regular principal wants so badly to draw a line that says this is what we should do and this is what we shouldn't do.

And yet even then, within each of those personal choices, the reality is that no church is doing those things the way the first century church did.

No church is doing those things the way that the, the, the Israelites did.

You mentioned earlier that somebody who attaches to the regular principle may say no drums.

Right?

I haven't met any of those people because I think there's a, there's a silliness to that because the Bible doesn't, always doesn't say you can use a piano either.

Then I know lots of people who don't like drums who, you know, who want to use the piano.

And you can't, you can't justify that from scripture unless you're going to say, well, we're not going to have any musical instruments or we're only going to have the musical instruments that are listed off in scripture.

So we've got our sack butts and we've got our salt drinks and we've got.

Right.

And I don't know any churches that are doing that who hold to the regulative principle.

So even in that, even by having a piano as part of their worship, they have acknowledged that they follow the regulative principle up to a point.

So we're supposed to sing, right?

Because the Bible talks about singing, but the how they sang, whether we know that from the Scripture or we know that from historical context, they are comfortable kind of just nudging that off to the side.

And I bring that up in these conversations with people who ascribe to this not as a gotcha moment but just as a legitimate curiosity to see to what degree do they really hold to the regulative principle and why.

Why did they make this choice versus that choice?

And which is one of the reasons I like the normative principle too, because there is a.

There's less.

You don't have to be a subject subjective.

You don't have to kind of like move your line depending on how you're feeling on a certain day or make a cultural argument and things like that in order to embrace the normative principle.

It's clear that certain things are sin and certain things glorify God.

So we're not going to do the things that are a sin and we're going to do the things that glorify God, whether it's completely listed in the Scriptures or not.

And then we're not left having to kind of say, well, but we're clearly going to do it differently than they reg that supposedly the Bible regulates that we do it.

Anyone else?

Yeah, I was thinking about the strange fire one that one feels to me like it's a little out of context.

Like you're.

You're taking a story, not a story, an account from Scripture that is about, you know, the.

Who has authority to speak for God and, or who God wants to speak through.

And, and it was in the con.

In the context that it was.

I mean, it was like they directly disobeyed.

It wasn't like a, Like a. I don't know, I guess in a way it was worship, but they were representing more than themselves.

They were taking authority on themselves that they hadn't been given.

And, And I don't think.

I don't feel like that really pertains to the argument.

Maybe it feels a little out of context to me and to Aaron's point about.

I, I always like to go back to the last psalm since we're talking about Psalms 150 where it says praise the Lord.

Praise God in his sanctuary.

Praise him in his mighty heavens.

Praise him for his mighty deeds.

Praise him according to his excellent greatness.

Praise him with trumpet sound.

Praise him with lute and harp.

Praise him with tambourine and dance.

Praise him with strings and pipe.

Praise him with sounding symbols, Praise him with loud clashing symbols.

Let everything that has breath praise the Lord.

Praise the Lord.

And I always like to go back to that because I have been in churches that are very, I guess, regulative in the type of instruments they choose to use.

And I really feel like that's more tradition than biblical.

I don't know that they're necessarily holding to a regulative principle when they choose to only use an organ or a piano and the people who think the drums are sinful because they make people move to a rhythm and they, therefore they're being worldly and fleshly and all that kind of stuff.

I have been around those people, so I know.

I guess that's kind of where I get my views that it's legalistic because they're putting a spin on worship that is not necessarily biblical in my view.

But in addition to that, I think it maybe emphasizes too much the, the way you sing and not what you're singing.

And I, I would say that there is a line, I don't think that there's like you're all the way normative or you're all, all the way regulative.

I think probably every church has to determine where they're.

They lay in the, in a, you know, a 0 to 100 span inside that as to, you know, where they make their choices on how they worship and what they sing and that kind of thing.

And I know we've discussed it in our last theology throwdown about, you know, certain modern songs that churches probably shouldn't be singing.

And so I guess I feel like you shouldn't be taking scripture out of context in order to make a point about how you should worship.

Same time, shouldn't, definitely shouldn't discount scripture.

And I believe there's probably a line in there somewhere as Aaron was talking about, pick a line that you're not.

Going to have to move who has dance.

Because I'm pretty certain that all the ones I know about would not have dance as part of their.

And I'm not saying they should, but I'm saying, you know, they would not have dance as part of their service and they would, they would support that in part because they hold to the regulative principle.

Yeah, I don't know.

Well, I think about.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have dance, but I think of King David as the ark was being brought back and he was worshiping.

He was dancing in the streets and partially clothed by the sounds of it.

And I remember what's her name, his wife, King David's wife.

Michelle remember reading about Mikhail, and she treated him with disdain because of it.

And then because of that, she was barren.

So obviously God disapproved of her disapproval of David's dancing in the streets worshiping God.

But the.

The.

I did hear a pastor.

I was.

I think it was listening to a sermon on the radio talk about the drums.

And according to him, they do not use the drums at their church because drums were always used in war.

They were the sound of war.

And that.

That did not belong in worship.

So that was always the reason.

I thought some churches refused to.

To, you know, use drums.

I don't follow the regulative principle myself, but it's come up a couple times now, so I'll just toss it out there.

I'm.

I'm not a fan of drums in corporate worship either, but not for any of the reasons that have been mentioned here and not for the regulative principle.

So that's one of those ones where I'm just like, I. I do know there are people who come to that conclusion for lots of different reasons, but.

But you totally like this.

The fog machines, right?

In regular principle, what happened when they inaugurated the temple?

It was filled with smoke.

Good.

Good one.

That was a good.

Yeah, it's there, right?

Take it out of context.

So let me.

That's what the fog machines are designed to recreate.

Yeah, no doubt.

So let me ask this.

Let me.

I'm going to read Hebrews 12:28 and ask this question from your perspective.

What is the idea of the acceptable worship that we have in Hebrews 12:28, which says, Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude by which we may offer to God an acceptable service or acceptable worship with reverence and awe for our God is a consuming fire.

So what would be the acceptable worship, do you think?

Having a right heart, I'd say, first and foremost, right where our heart is.

That's what comes to my mind.

Eve.

Hang on a minute.

I'm looking up a verse.

All right, then Aaron and Aaron will speak long enough to give you plenty of time to look up the verse.

I don't think that we can pull from this verse or from the context around it an understanding of what, what outward things this is referring to.

But I think where Rebecca went is clear in that the Scriptures, especially in the New Testament, have a lot of expectations for how we are to respond.

How we.

I mean, yes, we are to give, but we need to be cheerfully giving, right?

We can by God's grace, whether, regardless of where we are cannot are commanded to always have joy and peace, contentment and gratitude.

Right.

So it doesn't matter where I am or what I'm doing.

God's expectations, this law is written on our hearts.

This heart of flesh he has given to us deals primarily with the spiritual responses that we are to have.

So I would argue that.

That this acceptable service that we're offering to God.

Definitely.

Sure.

It's going to be partially external.

Right.

The things that we're doing and saying, but it's going to also be dealing with the inside, too.

All right.

Eve, did you look up the verse that you wanted?

It's in one of the prophets, but I can't remember which.

Which one?

It's the.

The one where he says that he's.

He doesn't take delight in the blooded bulls and lambs, but he calls.

I can't.

I think it's.

I think that's Micah.

Hold on, I'm checking quickly.

And.

Yeah, I was gonna say, while you're checking on that, I. I didn't mention Romans 12:1 because I thought perhaps maybe that's where Eve was going and I wanted.

Didn't want to steal our thunder.

But God.

I mean, Romans 12:1 specifically says, I exhort you, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a sacrifice, living holy and pleasing to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.

So that's just a really definitive, clear understanding of that.

Sometimes that service of worship has more to do with the internal aspect of the heart and what you're doing than whether you're lighting candles or not.

And so I think.

Yeah, I think.

Go ahead, Andrew.

Yeah.

The passage I think you wanted was Micah six, six, eight is my guess.

And so that says, with what shall I come to the Lord and bow myself before the gods on high?

Shall I come to him with burnt offerings, With a yearling calves?

Does the Lord take delight in a. Thou.

In thousands of rams, in ten thousands of rivers of oil?

Shall I present my firstborn for my rebellious acts, the fruit of my body and soul.

He has told you, O man, what good.

What.

What is good?

And what does the Lord require of you?

To do justice, to love kind, to.

To love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God.

Was that the one you were thinking?

Oh, that's a.

That's a good one.

But I think the one I was wanting was an Isaiah.

I'm kind of.

I'm close to it here.

Isaiah 111, maybe.

Yeah.

Let's see.

I have had enough of your Burnt offerings of rams and the fat of your feed cattle and take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, of goats and lambs.

Yeah, yeah.

That's bring no more vain offerings.

And sense is an abomination to me.

The reason why that one came to mind is because when we think of acceptable worship, I think a lot of times we put it in a context of the things that man has built as thinking this is what God wants.

And God had ordained all of these sacrificial systems in the Old Testament.

But before you get to the end of the prophets, he's saying, I don't want that because it's not being presented in the right heart.

It's like you're paying me lip service.

Your sacrifices mean nothing.

They're actually a stench to me.

And to me that's a revelation of the fact that God doesn't want the outward stuff.

He wants the inward stuff.

He wants the sacrifice of our hearts and our souls and our.

And our obedience.

He doesn't want us to just go through the motions.

And I think that a lot of times when we make it easy in church to go through the motions without to not have our heart involved in our worship because we're just, you know, we're singing the same rote songs or whatever.

I don't know.

To me, I feel like it borders on presenting a sacrifice that maybe God did specify in the Bible in his Word, that this is the way he wanted it, but that, but we're presenting it in a way that would make it actually a stench to him because it's not done in the right heart.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And it almost sounds like you're coming back to this, your view, your legalism comment again.

But so let me ask this, Let me, let me avoid the legalism and ask what maybe you're, you might be getting to when you use the word legalism.

Do you think, being that you take more normative principle, do you think that the regulative principle of worship would limit creativity in the worship service.

Or do.

You think that it could protect it?

I think someone that would be in favor of the regulative principle would be to say that it protects the creativity and worship.

But would you think that it could be not so much the legalism, but the limiting of what people could do to worship God?

Eve, I'll ask that of you first.

Yeah, I would say it limits creativity.

I mean, God made us to be creative.

I think that's one of the aspects that we're made in the image of God.

That we have that we are creative.

Spoken like a true artist, by the way.

Yes, I am an artist.

Think that, you know, worship should come from whatever is in our heart and hopefully what is in our heart beyond the fact that as fleshly beings, our heart is deceitful and wicked.

But when.

When our heart is given over to God and sacrifice, then he turns it into something beautiful and our praise and worship should express that.

And it's kind of interesting because what Aaron was talking about.

I've recently switched to a more reformed church.

I wouldn't say we're the way over on the totally reformed side of things, but it's definitely a lot more reformed than I've ever been in my life.

And I feel like we still use drums and we still use electric guitars.

What.

I don't know that we fall into the regulative style of worship, but we are very careful about what songs we choose to sing.

We don't sing only psalms, though we did have a passage of time when I first joined the church that we were singing mostly modern versions of psalms because we were going through a sermon series on psalms.

So we were singing psalms while we were going through that sermon series.

But that's not the only thing we sing.

And.

But I know that we.

We choose our songs very carefully, carefully, and we make sure they are tailored to match what we're being, what's being preached from the pulpit.

And then on top of that, I don't know that there's.

I see even our pastor raising his hands in worship and expressing himself when the songs really speak to his heart and what he wants to say to God.

And I feel like maybe some of these more regular churches would frown on that.

So I don't know.

I don't know what regulative looks like.

I'm kind of going more on a definition, so maybe I'm misunderstanding what regulative actually means.

But I feel like that we need to be creative in our worship because that's part of who we are and how we express our joy and our praise for what God has done for us.

And when that comes out in song, it should be a creative expression.

I don't necessarily believe in, like, trying to raise the spirit in churches like charismatics do or whatever, but I think that we can.

Can be expressive in our joy and, and in what God has done for us and praise him for that in.

In expressive ways.

So.

And see, I. I actually think that the raising of hands while singing comes out of the charismatic movement because the only passages you see in scripture that talk about raising hands are always associated with prayer, never with singing praises.

Just the thought.

But I mean if there was someone who is really holding to psalms only here, I would ask this question.

So.

And since there is no one like that, I will ask you the audience, especially if there's any of you who are listening that are of that where your church only sings the, the Psalms because that, that is what is in Scripture.

A question I want to just ask of you, the listener, since none of us here would hold to the regular principle and hold obviously to only singing hymns, Psalms would be this is do you sing the psalms using modern music or do you sing the psalms using the Hebrew that it would have been tied to?

Right.

So it was.

There is the Hebrew music to the Psalms.

And so just a curiosity question.

You can, you know, contact us at info at striving for eternity.com info@restrivingforattorney.com Just let me know what, what you think of as an answer for that.

So that's more question for the audience to those who hold to using psalms only in worship, because I really don't know the answer to that.

But I would be curious to get one.

But when we talk about the regulative principle, Aaron, you know, we've been talking about draw drums a bit.

It.

But here would be a different thing, you know, if someone held to the regulative principle.

And again, if there's someone here, I would ask this.

Are things like, you know, we say drums not acceptable?

Okay, well what about doing dramas or using a video during a service?

Even if it's a video of a missionary giving an update.

What about announcements?

I mean, I don't know of a passage of scripture that says that announcements should be made during a worship service.

So like, would it be unacceptable to do that?

This is a question.

I, I genuinely, excuse me.

Was hoping that we'd have someone that really held to this view that we could ask because it would be curious.

You know, we've like Aaron was saying, we keep picking up the drums.

1 and there may be other reasons as Aaron made an argument, as Eve made an argument of the, you know, the warfare, you know, what will we do with announcements, you know, or using videos.

I think that's, that's one of those examples of the line, you know, massaging the line or making excuses for certain things because of tradition or because out of necessity.

Right.

That I think or to a large degree might.

An argument might be made from silence.

Which is funny considering that it would be somebody in the regulative principle, making an argument from silence.

But one thing that my wife and I did encounter, and we've moved around a lot and we were, this was back in Wisconsin and we were trying to find a church to go to because ours had imploded.

It was a very sad situation.

But we were thinking about attending a church and found out that they, they ascribed to the regulative principles.

And for them that meant two things.

One, they didn't have a choir, and two, they didn't have anybody do what we would consider special music.

So no one was singing a solo.

Nobody was playing music, you know, during offering or something like that.

That was their actual practical application of the regulative principle.

And so we asked the question you're trying to understand and they said that, you know what, what they see is they see God's people singing together and you know, again, they want to, you know, singing these things to each other.

Right?

And they don't see anywhere in the scriptures where a person got up and sang a solo and so therefore they didn't have it.

And I would say, yes, those exact same arguments were made.

People, people specifically in regard to dramas.

Now the, the, the, the quote, unquote practical things of announcements and things like that.

I don't hear anybody with the regulative principle condemning people who do announcements as part of their service.

And I think, again, it's a convenient thing, but they are primarily focusing on the worship service.

I mean, even, even pastors in my church make an interesting distinction.

Like they'll, they'll start the service with their announcements and then they'll say this thing that makes it sound like, okay, and now the church service is actually starting as we're getting into the prayer and the songs and the Bible reading and the preaching.

And maybe that's what they do too.

But within the context of the actual service.

No, I, I, I have found that people who prescribe, subscribe to the regulatory principle are not doing dramas.

They are not, they're not having, even though they'll sing songs oftentimes, like somebody just reading a, a poem that is scriptural or biblical in nature.

Right.

Christian in nature.

They won't allow that.

Yeah, they definitely, those are things that they're definitely doing.

And they're, they're doing it or they're not doing, I should say, because they don't have examples of, in the scripture.

Now when they bring up the drama one, this is always a fun one for me because if we're talking about God communicating his truth, right, then we can look to so many examples, not only the parables of Christ, but more specifically the Old Testament prophets who did very dramatic, if we can put it that way, like things in the communication of truth to God's people, they were reenacted things, they were creating miniatures and dioramas and, and they were doing a lot of very symbolic things which I don't think you're going to find a single regulative principle church that's ever going to embrace any type of communication of truth that will look anything like that.

And when I bring those things up, there's always, again, it's, it's, it's interesting that the arguments that are made and the reason I'm not quoting them them here is I find that they lack substance because they seem to kind of just be dismissive.

Well, what the prophets were doing isn't the same as what, you know, we're called to do with within a church service.

I was like, but we actually have far more biblical examples of God communicating his truth.

We don't, we don't, we don't know what they said in the Temple.

We don't know what they said primarily in the synagogue, outside of historical references and a few examples in the New Testament of things that certain people said in synagogues and then were promptly kicked out for.

But we do know a lot of what the prophets did.

So to ignore that I think is just one of those areas where the regulative principle isn't very well regulated, if I can put it that way.

And which is why we have a of lot, lot of different, A lot, a lot of churches that subscribe to the regulative principle who all of their services look very different because there is no clear cut definition of what it's supposed to be.

You know, when I'm at church, I usually try to sing solo.

Solo.

No one hears me.

But yeah, I had to.

Had to.

You just left that open.

But let me ask, I mean, so with that, I'll ask one of the ladies answer first.

So is the regulative principle inherently more biblical or is it just more cautious?

Rebecca, what do you think?

I would say it's more cautious than anything.

I know people that adhere to that principle want to do what's right.

You know, they want to please God.

But I think human nature coming into play with whether it's regulative or normative, there are extremes.

And personally I feel just singing the psalms are an extreme.

You know, I think of the wonderful hymns we have, like Amazing Grace or It Is well with My Soul and If I'm correct.

Correct me if I'm not.

That was written by a man who I think just lost his family, and he was worshiping God and praising God, even though he was experiencing that tragedy.

And, you know, God's put a song in our hearts, and I think he's gifted many people with the gift of being able to write hymns, you know, write worship songs and.

And sing them.

I don't know what I'd do without some of those.

Those songs that I.

That I really love.

And then there can be extremes, of course, with the normative principle as well.

People bringing in clowns.

I've heard of that, you know, during worship.

And some of these acts and nonsense things that, that.

That go on are just outrageous.

So, you know, again, I think the heart is there to.

To please and serve God correctly.

But I just think sometimes we get carried away to extremes.

Eve, what are your thoughts?

Is the regulative principle inherently more biblical or just more cautious?

I would say more cautious.

I actually agree a lot with what Rebecca said about there being the extremes on both sides that we have to avoid.

And I think that's kind of where I was saying before.

You kind of have to choose your line somewhere in between.

Because there are churches that definitely go too far in the normative as to look completely different, not anywhere different from the world, and that they're carrying on rock concerts and bringing on things that are not biblical.

And then you have to just question whether the church is biblical at all and their worship is only a symptom of bigger problems.

Perhaps.

But I think that judging by what Aaron said about not singing solos, and I mean, my church doesn't.

We don't do solos.

We don't.

We only do corporate worship in my church, and we don't do special music.

And I.

Perhaps that's regulative, I don't know.

But it's.

I've never actually heard in the church why we don't do that.

So I.

Maybe they're holding to a standard there I'm not familiar with, but I think that there's probably some line in between the two that is between caution and between too much freedom.

So I guess for every church, you have to choose.

Well, now you're going to have to ask Pastor Steve why they do that.

But you both mentioned the extremes with normative.

I mean, we see cases with pastors who are coming in, flying in through zip lines or coming in on motorcycle or doing series on Jaws or sharks or whatever.

So, you know, can the normative principle lead to A man centered worship.

I mean, is it.

So if, when you're looking at those, especially those extremes, if someone is holding to a regulative principle, well, they'll say, see, that's why this is inherently more biblical, because it's going to protect against things like that.

Both sides lead.

Can lead to extremes.

They both can lead to extremes.

Right.

But could the, could the, could the normative principle lead to a more man centered worship?

And the reason I'm asking it that way is this, I think would be an argument from a regulative principle.

Because what the regulative principle is going to do is protect against the man centered worship.

Worship because they're only going to do what God says you can do.

So you're not going to be in a case of, well, just because God doesn't say it, you're not doing the crazy man centered stuff.

So is it just like the question being, is normative principle inherently biblical?

I guess in this case the question becomes, does the normative principle lead to a man centered worship?

And we have another one of our podcasters that just joined.

And so since he's joining by phone, I actually don't know whose number it is yet.

So I'll just ask if you would mind introducing yourself your podcast so people can know your voice.

I think I know who this may.

Be, but hi, my name is Caleb Gordon and this is the podcast.

A very creative name for your podcast.

Just write off your actual name.

You're very creative.

Blame you for that whole look.

Hey, it wasn't me that started calling your show the Caleb Gordon Show.

You just had a different name that meant that it was from an old church which didn't make.

That was it.

That's confusing.

You should just call it the Caleb Gordon Show.

Okay, I'll do that.

Because that's what you called it.

So I did.

Caleb, let me, let me ask this question as you come in the.

And we're talking about psalms.

And well, Caleb's preaching through the psalms this summer.

So I don't know why so many pastors like to only preach the psalms in the summer, you know, but I.

Mean, I don't always.

But I mean it just, it was a, it was catchy.

Oh, I know because I preach.

I've been to a number of churches where I preach for them and they're like, hey, we're doing a summer of songs.

And in my church I'm teaching on Wednesday nights through a summer of psalms.

So.

Yeah, but Caleb, regulative principle, normative principle.

Which one would you hold to.

Yes, I'm good with you.

I'm good with either or.

Which one would you hold closer to?

I think primarily we need to focus on the Lord.

We need to.

Our idea, our worship should not be mandatory.

We should not have, we shouldn't be like Bethel and think about Jesus is here to be your magic genie.

Jesus is here to be worshiped.

He's to be worshiped and praised and given primary adoration.

The idea that Jesus is here to fix my problems is secondary to his.

Does that help?

Yep.

So let me open up the question that I had asked before Caleb had joined and I think this was generally to Eve and Rebecca, since you guys had mentioned it, but do you think that the normative principle leads to a man centered worship or could lead to it?

Well, I'd like to, yeah, I'd like to pose the question, is it possible that the regulative principle is man centered?

Really?

How?

Because.

Well, because at times I think it is putting God in a box, so to speak, or worship in a box place putting it in a category that's.

Just, just for corporate.

You know, as Aaron said, everything we should, we do should be an act of worship.

But because they're, they're assuming kind of, I think that their way is the right way.

If I'm wording this, putting this right, you know, almost not speaking for God, but saying that, well, no other form is right.

You know, we think that it's this and it should only be this because God.

The reform.

Oh yeah, maybe that might be a little man centered.

That in, in and of itself.

I don't know.

Well, let me push back a bit and say if someone's holding to the regulative principle, I believe they would make the argument back to say that what they're doing is not putting God in the box, but accepting the box that God puts himself in.

That God is saying this is what is desired, this is what is.

Because we're only doing what God has said to do.

And therefore what they're doing is protecting against a man centered view.

They're, they're, they're protecting, protecting against putting God in a box.

Because there's for example, it's not putting a God in, it's not putting God in a box to say God cannot lie.

Why?

Because God says he cannot lie.

Right.

So Titus 1:2.

If people need the citation.

So it wouldn't be.

If you're holding to a regulative principle and there's.

They're believing God has commanded us to only worship in a certain way, then it's not putting him in the box to worship him only in that way.

Aaron, I see your hand is up.

Yeah.

So I think one of the important things in this conversation, I see where Rebecca's coming from, the whole God in the box thing, but I also understand what you're talking about.

The difference is that God specifically said, I cannot lie.

And it's not putting God in the box to say that he cannot lie.

However, we need to understand the difference between a descriptive passage versus a prescriptive passage.

Just because the New Testament is full of examples of how his people came and together in corporate worship and what it looked like doesn't and doesn't necessarily require that that description is a prescription for us today.

Now, there are, are plenty of places in the scripture where there is a command do this.

There are also places in the New Testament where there are commands of what not to do.

Women are, should not be pastors.

Right.

So you.

That's clear.

We have to do that.

And there are other things that we need to do.

But to make the argument that, well, because God commanded us to do this, we need to do that.

But he didn't say have a drama, so therefore we're not allowed to.

That's an extra step that goes beyond what the scripture says.

And then back to my other point, that just because something was described as having happened doesn't inherently mean that that's the way that we need to do it today or that we would be.

And I think that we would be putting God into a box to say that just because it was described that way.

Therefore that's how we have to do it.

That's what God.

God's saying.

Well, that's not what he actually said.

Rebecca, did you have more you wanted to say on that?

No.

What Aaron said.

Okay.

And what he said I think describes it.

That's kind of what I was trying to say.

Yeah, sure.

No, I think that's reason I said you asked the question earlier, which would you.

You know, as long as.

As long as the focus of the worship is the personal work of the Lord Jesus Christ and what he is atoning work and his majesty and his glory, I'm fine with it.

The moment you start singing about Jesus in his beard and I want to crawl in Jesus lap and love on him like a boyfriend, I think that's weird and sacrilegious, so.

Absolutely.

And do you think I'm joking, but there are.

Oh, no, there are crazy people that do that.

No, I mean calling, calling him my boyfriend.

I'M like, Jesus isn't your boyfriend.

Like, that's, that's.

I mean, Beth Moore, Beth Moore has dreams of Jesus brushing her hair.

So, I mean, come on.

So that's a whole nother podcast.

So I think that kind of goes back to my earlier comment that it's not necessarily the how, it's the what you're singing.

And I don't think you can have this.

I, I don't think you can just choose, you know, this is how we sing.

There has to be a what we sing too.

Now, we've been saying earlier that, you know, the, the extreme would be singing only words from the Bible, which would be psalms and spiritual songs that are in the Bible.

I think it's great to sing Bible passages.

I don't know that it's.

Then I get hung up on the only.

I think that there's a lot of really great hymns and even some great contemporary songs not written by Bethel.

But we had that discussion already in another episode of this podcast.

But I, I think it's good for a church to be very careful what they sing.

And so I don't necessarily think that if that's what regulative means that you're being careful.

I think it's very good for a church to be careful.

I've recently, well, not recently within the last three years, left a church because I felt like they weren't being careful enough.

But I didn't leave the church because they were singing, playing with drums and singing songs that were not biblical out of the Bible.

I left them because they weren't being careful enough and discerning enough of the modern songs they were singing.

And I, I feel like there's just, there's a line there.

You have to choose what your line is.

And I think what is acceptable to God.

And, and if I keep coming back to the same argument here, but I think the question was, are they closer, are they closer to being biblical because they only sing from the Bible.

Obviously their theology would probably be more sound because they're only singing words from the Bible.

I don't know that that necessarily means that they aren't man centric, though, because they are making, they might be taking scripture out of context in order to make statements about worship that may, that may not necessarily be biblically correct.

So they are still putting their own manly worldly spin on and interpreting things that God have said in an incorrect manner.

So I guess Andrew may take a hack at the question that you put out there about normative principle and man.

Centeredness of Course you're going to do that.

I asked, if I may.

My wife and I were talking before the show started.

I had, I had told her about the show and I had read to her those two definitions you read earlier.

So the regulative principle being we worship only as God commands and the normative principle being we worship in any way not forbidden by scripture.

And her knee jerk reaction was that, well, she doesn't really like the second definition because that just seems like it's way too open and so many things could creep in that would not be Christ honoring.

And I, Eve, you just mentioned it's not just the what, it's also the how.

Right.

And I would say that the, the crux of my wife's and my discussion pointed to a deeper thing, the why.

Because we'll know if it is man centered, then it's, then it is forbidden by Scripture that, that why you're doing what you're doing, how you're doing what you're doing, and what you're actually doing are all three necessary.

Necessary.

And all three of those things need to not be forbidden by scripture.

If I'm preaching a message to become famous for my congregants, to think that I'm a really great preacher to please my mom, because she always told me I'd make a good preacher growing up, I am sinning.

God is not pleased by that message.

Even if everything I say in that message is biblical, because I, Aaron Brewster, I'm sinning in that act of worship.

And that would be forbidden by scripture.

Scripture.

So the normative principle, when followed, it's kind of like Augustine and how he said, you know, love God and do whatever you want.

If you're truly biblically loving God, whatever you do that grows out of there is going to glorify him.

Because the moment that you stop glorifying him and what you're doing in that moment, you're not loving him.

And I think that the normative principle, if you are worshiping in a way that is not forbidden by scripture, Scripture, it's not just the what, it's also the how and the why, then, no, you can't become man centered.

But if I think the point that everyone's been making here is that both sides can become man centered when the why ends up becoming about man and not about God.

All right, Amen.

I would, I would echo and say amen to that.

Me too.

That was much better said than whatever I said.

I was just gonna say I don't.

Articulate it that well, so thank you Aaron.

So another question then.

And you know, and we're not holding to a regulative principle, but for those who may be in the audience that do again, you can, you can email me your response at info Striving for eternity.com info Striving for eternity.com but if you hold to a regulative principle, a question I would have and since no one here holds to it, I don't know if anyone wants to answer.

But you know, if you hold to a regulative principle in church, what about private family worship?

Like when your family is, is it only corporate worship or as so many of the reformed that that would hold to a regulative principle would also hold very firmly to the father's role of a family worship.

And so does the same thing apply there?

And if not, I would be curious to know why, you know, what is the difference between the corporate worship and the family worship?

So question for the audience, for those who hold to the regulative principle, again, info at striving for eternity.com so Danny, you guys want to take a stab at that or not?

I say that I know Aaron will take a stab at it because there's no question Aaron doesn't like to answer but he's just smiling at that.

See.

So he's got it now.

See, with that one, he doesn't want to, he's, he wants to answer but now he feels like, oh, I shouldn't answer now because, well, I always get.

In trouble because I'm that guy who as I'm sitting as a teacher when a question is asked and everyone sits quiet.

I'm not saying that we're doing it here, but when everyone sits has there.

Ever been a time that we've sat quietly?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

But I'm, I'm one of those guys who just I, I, I, someone asked a question for their sake, having been in their position, I always want to answer it.

So yeah, sometimes I, sometimes I seem to sit back and let other people answers.

Yeah.

Well so let me ask this how and I'll ask this, I'll start with Caleb.

Since he came in last, hasn't as much time to devoice his, his different opinions and he'll go, he can go back and see if we talked about him in the beginning part of the show.

Just saying, you don't know, kid.

You probably did.

Who knows?

Who knows?

We, I could say that we either did or we didn't.

I can honestly say that how should Christians evaluate their own church worship?

Practices in light of the principles we've been talking about.

So, Caleb, as a pastor, how should people evaluate our worship with, you know, even from what you have shared or what you have heard so far.

Man.

One of the things that I would say is, is super, super important is when you, when you, even before you enter into corporate worship.

One of the things I try to try to do in my own personal walk and then, and try to encourage my congregation to do the same is when you wake up before your feet even hit the floor, evaluate your heart, evaluate your motives.

Back to what Aaron was saying just a little bit ago, why am I getting up with preach?

Why, why are you coming to church?

You coming to church because you, you know, I need a pick me up, I need a, you know, people always say things that are just, you know, somewhat half cocked and they'll say, oh, my life's in shambles, I need to get back in church.

Which is not necessarily wrong.

But what's your motive for coming into the building?

What's your motive for coming into the, into the room?

Are you wanting to hear from God and then actually follow through with what God has called you to do from the scriptures or are you just looking for a, you know, a fancy TED talk that's gonna make you feel better?

And, and if you're coming into, with a mindful heart of worship, I believe that you have to be before you even leave the house.

At least open the Word and read something in the Word to get your heart aligned.

I think it's important, I mean, it's never wrong to open the Scriptures and read and just ask the Holy Spirit to, to give you discernment, give you wisdom, give you understanding before you come in and begin to sing.

I think there's a, there's a heart evaluation that needs to happen.

One of the things that we try to do often in our church is we try to corporately confess and corporately call for a time of repentance and a time of reflection before we even begin the process of corporate worship.

Because sometimes people just come in and go through the motion just to check a box and to go home and say, hey, I did my thing.

I think there needs to be a time of reflection and sometimes make it awkward, make it awkward so that people have to think before they just.

All right, turning your hymns to page 422 and we're going to sing Holy, Holy, Holy, and here we go.

And just.

Because sometimes it can become repetitive, it can be normal, and it can be something that's not necessarily Edifying to the saints or worshipful to the Lord.

And I think of in the Book of Amos where he I hate your worship.

I never want that to be the case where the Lord hates what we're doing at First Baptist Church.

I want him to be pleased with what we do.

And I don't want our church to grow because you're the pastor.

Who cares?

Who cares?

Who cares?

What matters is Jesus made much of he put on for full display.

Worship, honoring, calling men and women to repentance, calling men and women to.

To love Jesus regardless.

One of the things that I find interesting, I don't know if you guys have ever heard this sermon.

It's an old, old sermon from a guy named Paris Reid Head.

Have you ever heard of him?

No.

The song or.

That's not song.

The sermon is called 10 shekels and a Shirt.

You can look it up online and it's crackly and it's from like the 1950s and it's talking about hedonism.

And one of the things that he says is that we are a transactional people.

We come and we pay homage to the Lord.

We want our blessings, we want our favors, we want our things.

We bring our prayer requests.

God help us.

God help us.

And then we're transactional.

At the end of the sermon, he says something that's a little unsettling even in most mainstream churches.

He says something like these, and I'm quoting loosely, he says, Jesus is deserving of our worship, deserving of our honor, even if we get hell at the end of this thing.

And first time I heard that, I was like, oof, that hurt a little bit.

But it's the truth.

We're a transactional people and we want.

We come into the room thinking, wanting certain things to take place and transpire.

Even in the pastor.

We want certain things to happen.

And the call for us as believers is to pay honor, give, as Psalm 29 says, ascribe glory, ascribe honor.

It's due his name.

Jesus is owed worship and owed honor.

Even if we get hell at the end of this thing.

Thankfully, on the authority of scripture, that's not the case.

But the reality is so many people come into the church with a hedonistic, humanistic mindset of I want something because I want something.

And so what I'm going to do, Jesus, is I'm going to give you quote, unquote, worship and you give me eternal life.

That's a horrible way to think about it.

We need to come into the room with a mindset of Christ, you are supreme, you are preeminent.

You are above all things.

My heart belongs to you where it doesn't.

Where there's parts of my heart that have been transactional.

Where parts of my heart have been cordoned off that expose that.

Show me where I'm wrong.

Show me where I can repent.

Give me the ability and the grace to do that.

For your glory alone.

To help.

Yeah.

Now, are you actually walking while you're talking about our spiritual walk?

I'm just curious.

You hear lots of windows.

I'm actually out.

Yeah.

Already I'm like, I might as well get a walk into.

Yeah.

So he's a professional podcaster, folks, so he knows how to get good audio quality.

Yeah.

You talked about the walking just for the, for the, you know, you're.

What, you're out walking for the.

The illustration.

I'm sure that is true.

I'm.

I'm.

Yes, for the illustration.

Walking your faith out in real time.

So.

But did that.

Does that make sense, what I'm saying there?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So let me ask this.

With the two views, what.

What do you guys think would be the biggest misconceptions from both sides?

Who wants to tackle that one?

Say it one more time.

What was that again?

What would be the biggest misconceptions?

Like, what would someone that holds the normative principle, what would be the misconception they have of the regulative principle and vice versa?

I would say first and foremost, with a normal.

When if you're holding to the regulative principle, you would look at.

I would say, especially in the reform camp, a lot of folks are going to look at what normally folks do and say, oh, they're just singing Bethel.

They're just going to.

It's just.

It's opening the door for license and licentiousness and all this other stuff.

And so I think there's a misconception there that anything that's in the normative principle is just battle on steroids.

That's not true.

I think that there is.

There are helpful sides or helpful things on both sides of this particular worship principle.

Yeah, I think I would agree.

The people on the regulative side would probably think at anything outside of their camp would be charismatic people swinging from the chandeliers, you know, doing Bethel, basically.

And then on the normative side, they probably think that regulative churches are spodgy and boring and that there's no movement of the spirit, since that seems to be a big deal for.

For the.

Especially the charismatic things.

It Was like, you got to feel the spirit or he's not there kind of thing.

I think I was going to echo that as well.

I think maybe we've, we've illustrated it.

I mean I don't think we've come down in a condemning type of a way, but you know, to see normative as man centered and to see regulative as legalistic, you know, I think are probably easy extremes to swing to.

Yeah.

And I think we've talked about some of those throughout the episode.

So, you know, if you, you know, if you were to let me ask this way, since everyone here is normative principle, what would it take to convince you that the regulative principle is right?

I'll start Regulation.

Regulation.

If there were a clear regulation in Scripture that you are only to worship in the ways that have been described and prescribed, then, then I'd be like, oh, okay.

But I think even the ones you read today, when I've heard them used in that context, it's just, it's too easy to show how those aren't demanding a regulative principle that everyone is to follow.

Anyone else?

Yeah, I would agree with that.

100.

Because you're, I understand what you're saying.

Error on the cost, you know, on the side of caution and you know, because of God's holiness.

Be careful what you say, be careful what you're doing.

I would, I would say that that was yes and amen to that.

But I would also say that Christ or Christ is, there's liberty.

And if you are worshiping in a way that is glorifying to the king and your, your heart intention is to glorify the king.

And the theology that you're singing matches scripture make it happen.

So then with that, I mean how can we then promote unity in the church when there could be people in the church that hold these differing views.

That is the age old question.

How do we bring unity into the church?

It is the most difficult thing to achieve and it's not something that we're experiencing in 2025.

They've constantly, there's always been infighting in the church.

You look at the history of America, when we first got here, there were certain denominations that had stake two particular states.

The Presbyterians were in one spot, the Anglicans were in another, the Baptists were in another.

And you could not cross the state line because you bring your denominational heresy to my state, you'll infect us.

And the only thing that changed that push that particular viewpoint was the red coats.

And when the red Coats showed up.

They're like, wait, you're willing to die for me?

All right, I'll let you.

I'll let you open a church in my town.

Like that was the shifting moment.

I think when we get our minds and our.

Here's the reality.

If the electricity goes out tonight and I can't eat and I have a hard time with water and I have a hard time living, I think a lot of our secondary and tertiary thought processes are going to go out the window.

Like we're not gonna, we're not gonna.

I don't, I don't care how you sing.

I don't care how you.

I don't care.

You fed me, you brought you, you brought water to my kids, you and welcomed me into your home.

I think when we get our.

We're so first world thinking that we don't even, we don't even realize half of the stuff that we fight about in the church would not even, would be non existent if we were in the middle of a crisis or an actual war where if we believe we were actually in a spiritual battle.

Because I don't believe most people in the church believe we're in a spiritual battle.

They'll call that, oh yeah, we're in a spiritual battle.

We are, we are pro spiritual battle.

We're fighting the forces of evil with the power of God's word.

You don't actually believe that because your life would look different.

You would not pick fights on the so on social media and argue and fight for comment after comment after comment.

If you actually believed that your neighbor next to you who was a genuine Christian who maybe just differed with you on eschatology or how we sing songs, you wouldn't fight as hard as you do against them.

You would lock shields.

I had a conversation with a dear friend of mine that's a Reformed Presbyterian and we talked about locking shields.

The time there is an enemy, but it ain't the Presbyterians, it ain't the Baptist.

There is an enemy.

He is, he is seeking to steal, kill and destroy.

And how do we achieve unity, get our eyes off of ourselves and get our eyes back on Jesus.

And if I'm looking at Jesus, I'm not looking to see how Andrew's singing in church or what singing in church.

My focus is on Christ.

Not if I'm singing.

We can argue if I'm singing, you.

If I'm singing, you're not thinking of Christ.

You're just going, oh, will he stop already?

That is not true.

I've been in church with you.

I've heard you sing, and I have not had any problem with how you sing, my friend.

That's because you're deaf.

But that's.

I mean, you know, I think if we genuinely thought we were in a spiritual battle, we'd have a different mindset.

We'd have a different.

We wouldn't even be like, this argument or this debate wouldn't even be a reality.

It's just like, you know, if.

What was it, you know, Eschatology.

The amount of, like, genuine fights that I have seen take place online and in person over eschatology is mind blowing.

And I'm like, you realize all of us believe that Jesus is coming back.

All of us just have a little bit differing view on how he's getting here ultimately.

If you believe Jesus is coming back, cool, that's great.

Because here's the reality.

I might be wrong.

I could be wrong.

I don't think I am, but I might be wrong.

And if he shows up in the way that I don't think he shows up, I'm not going to be down there going, you know what, Lord?

I don't like.

I don't like how you showed up.

That's not how I aligned with my eschatology.

Are you sure you're doing this right, Lord?

I'm not gonna argue.

I'm just gonna be.

I'm on the welcoming committee, not the planning committee.

Anyone else?

How do we solve the, the.

The issue of unity?

I think Caleb has a good point with the.

I mean, if we went to one of the hidden house churches in China and, and brought this debate to them, I, I think we might find that they would just kind of look at us blankly like, what?

We can't even sing.

Because if we sing, somebody will hear us, you know, and report us and, and we all end up in jail.

So I, I think that, that there, there's truth in that, in that we're picking.

I think I even said this on one of our previous ones.

I hate throwing labels on things.

I think sometimes in the Western church we have like, labels for all these specific doctrines and infighting amongst ourselves.

And, and I do think that Caleb has a point is like, we need to have our eyes fixed in the correct direction and not get so hung up on the things that we don't agree on.

So.

Good point.

Thanks.

Appreciate that.

Now, R.C.

sproul called it the Ivy League theological Ivy League tower.

And one of the things that they asked me was what could we.

As he had his air pump on, it's Pumping air into him.

He's on the verge of going to see the Lord.

He asked the question, or someone asked the question.

What is it?

Do you wish you could go back and tell your younger self that?

Don't lose the passion to see lost men and women come to know Christ.

If we would put all of our effort and all of our chips into the mindset of I want to see my neighbor saved, I want to see my uncle saved, I want to see my aunt saved.

And you're focused on that.

It'll change.

It'll change everything.

How you.

How you walk, how you move, how you sing, how you talk.

Everything will be changed because you want to see people saved.

So let me ask one final question, and I'll ask this of each of you guys, and what I'll do is start with Caleb, go to Aaron, Eve, and then Rebecca.

Final question is how does your understanding of the gospel shape your philosophy when it comes to worship?

So, Caleb, let's start with you as a pastor.

How does.

How's your view of the gospel?

You love to evangelize.

You're an evangelist as well.

So how's your understanding of the gospel shape your philosophy of worship?

Well, the idea that God is sovereign, that God redeems, that God saves.

I want to put before men and women everything that could potentially point them towards the person and the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

And what is the work?

His perfect life, his death, his burial, his resurrection.

That is the gospel.

And that's what we.

And we have to get that right first.

The amount of people that are in churches, even Reformed churches, who could not articulate what the gospel is is staggering.

So until we get the gospel right, we're never going to get our worship right.

If we don't get the gospel right, there's no way we can sing properly because we don't understand it.

Well, what is.

Who is Jesus?

What has he done?

Point men and women towards the reality of who Jesus is and what he's done for his children and that there's no other option.

When you see God as holy, when you see God as the one who's redeemed, you.

I mean, I think of Ray Comfort when he.

You know, one of the illustrations that I use often is when you're.

If I was speeding and Andrew and I were speeding in our car and we get pulled over and the cop takes us to jail and the bond is $2 million.

All of a sudden Aaron comes up from the back of the courtroom and says, hey, listen, I love Caleb and Andrew so much.

Here's the deal.

I've mortgaged my house.

I've sacrificed greatly.

I'm paying their fine.

Here's a check for $2 million.

How am I going to feel towards Aaron?

I'm going to feel incredibly grateful.

I want to do anything and everything to honor Aaron because of what he's done in my life.

And when I see what Jesus has done on my behalf, I am a vile, wicked wretch that deserves to be crushed under the thumb of a sovereign king.

And so what's my.

How do I.

How do I portray this man?

Everything goes back to Jesus.

When I sing, I sing with everything within me because I want Christ to be glorified.

And you start to see who Jesus is and what Jesus has done on your behalf, you will absolutely have no other response other than just worship.

We see it with the seraphim in Isaiah.

They see what God has done for them.

He's created them for this.

They sing, holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty.

They sing that back and forth 24, 7.

They don't get a break.

That's their job all day long.

And how much more does Jesus love me than he loves the seraphim?

Holy cow.

And yet I want to cry.

Oh, I don't want to go to church today.

It's raining.

I don't want to go to church because I don't want to sing because I'm tired.

Well, golly, Jesus was tired too, as he walked up the hill.

But he didn't say, you know what?

Forget these human beings.

I'm going back home.

He sacrificed his life to redeem me.

Why in the world would I not just give everything I've got?

Sing, even if I'm off key, just single.

Because here's the reality.

I'm not singing for Andrew.

I'm not singing for anybody in the room.

I'm singing to Jesus with a heart of gratitude, a position of gratefulness and thankfulness for what Jesus has done on my behalf.

And I want to help my people understand that as well.

I want them to see that this is why we do what we do, because Jesus is worthy.

He is worthy to be praised.

And when we do that, I think life's going to be better.

So you mentioned the importance of knowing the biblical gospel.

Caleb, would you mind telling us what is the biblical gospel?

Well, here's the reality.

All of us have fallen short.

That's the first thing we have to understand.

We have all absolutely, fully and totally sinned.

We've broken God's commands.

We've lied, we've stolen, we've cheated, we've committed, we've intimated adultery, we've murdered, we've.

We've done all the things that are horrible.

And because of that reality, because we've all sinned, we are deserving of God's judgment and wrath.

Romans 6:23.

The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life.

Through Jesus Christ, he came into this world.

He lived the perfect life.

That I cannot live.

That you cannot live.

He died the heinous, hellish, horrible death that I deserved.

Like I deserved the cross.

I deserve the cat o' nine tails.

I deserve the mocking.

I deserve the crown of thorns.

I deserve the purple robe on my back and then ripped off, exposing all the nerves and all of the garbage that is inside.

I deserve all of that.

But Jesus loved me.

He loved you.

John 3:16.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son.

What did he give him on the cross?

He died on the cross for me.

He took my place on Calvary's cross.

But here's the beauty.

He didn't stay in the grave.

There was two other guys that died that day.

They stayed in the grave.

He came back, gave us justification.

One theologian called it just as if I'd never sinned, justification.

Just as if I had never sinned.

That's the position I am in.

Christ.

How do I know that?

Ephesians, chapter one says that before the foundation of the world, he called us out, he predestined us for adoption, and he calls us holy and blameless.

Why are we holy and blameless?

Because Christ, he imputed or deposited his righteousness into my account.

And he took all the wrath, took all the punishment, and I get all of the mercy, the grace and the love of God.

Why?

Because other than he loves us.

Because here's the reality.

None of us deserve it.

So we have perfect life, perfect death, with perfect resurrection to give us right standing with the God of the universe.

How do we get there?

How do we get access to that?

Well, first, John 1:9 says, if you confess your sin, he is faithful and just to forgive you and to cleanse you from all of your unrighteousness.

Now, who are we confessing our sin to?

You confess your sin to the preacher or the priest or the rabbi?

Heck, no.

I can't even keep hold of my phone.

Most days, I lose my phone.

The majority of the time, I can't save anything.

But I know who can save you.

Christ.

We have one mediator between God and man.

It is the man Christ.

You repent of your sins.

If you confess your sins on the authority of scripture, God will forgive you.

Not because you deserve it, but because it brings him glory to be able to forgive you.

So all you need to do is you need to ask the Lord Jesus to forgive you.

As Ray Comfort said, it's like you apologizing to the Lord.

You just did not, not like your apology.

You are apologizing to the Lord.

Lord, I'm sorry that I have lied.

I'm sorry that I have stolen.

I'm sorry that I have broken the commands that you laid forward as the moral ethos of the Christian life.

I have broken those that I'm sorry.

Will you please forgive me?

And with a broken and contrite spirit, God will not despise that.

God loves that.

God loves the broken and pliable spirit.

And you have a haughty, arrogant heart that says, oh, I don't need Jesus and Jesus doesn't need me.

I've had that.

I've heard that said.

Oh, my friend, you are in for a rough, rough encounter with God.

But if you come before the Lord in a humble stance, asking for forgiveness, mercy and grace for your sins on the authority of God's word, He will forgive you of your sins.

But there must be repentance and there must be a belief that he did on the cross what was necessary to pay for your sins.

If you just pray and ask the Lord Jesus to forgive you and to cleanse you, it is really that easy.

Sometimes we as theologians and preachers make it complicated, but it's pretty simple.

A child can understand it.

You've done some really horrible things in your life.

You've sinned.

You deserve God's punishment for that.

But he's willing to forgive you because His Son paid the ultimate price so that you can be forgiven and spend eternity with Him.

With that, I'll defer back to the floor.

You yield your time.

Don't worry.

Aaron will take it.

Aaron, you're up next.

What was the question again?

That's just beautiful coming from Aaron.

For folks who are regular listeners.

No, praise God for that wonderful description of the Gospel.

Amen and Amen.

Unity in the church given the regulative and the normative principle.

And so.

Sorry, sorry, actually that was the previous one, but the.

The gospel as it relates to this question of worship.

And I think he just.

He hit on it towards the beginning there too.

If my wife is deathly allergic to peanut butter and it's Valentine's Day, or it's her birthday or.

And I'm standing in the store and I'm looking at all of the candy that I can choose.

If I'm standing there and I'm going, this is stupid.

Why did I get stuck with a wife who doesn't eat peanut butter, who will die if she has peanut butter?

You know, why can't she be like other wives who I, you know, look at all these.

There's a guy, oh, that guy's buying peanut butter for his wife.

I can't buy peanut butter for my wife.

You know, you'd be like, wow, Aaron, you're a terrible person.

And you're right, I would be a terrible person.

The fact of the matter is.

I.

Would go and I would be disgusted at the idea of choosing something that would harm my wife.

Now, thankfully, my wife is not allergic to peanut butter, and we have plenty of it in the house, but she's.

Just allergic to you.

You.

No, she's not.

She loves me.

When it comes to worshiping God, it needs to be about what pleases him.

And it's not just about corporate worship.

It's not just about singing songs.

Worship is life.

Life is worship.

How I brush my teeth, the movies that I watch, the church that I go to, the songs that I sing, the things that we do in church, all of these things are an act of worship.

God deserves to be pleased by all of them.

And so regardless of which principle you.

You subscribe to, the goal has to be, Lord, it's not about me, not about what I want.

It's about knowing you, loving you, and living in a way that pleases you.

And that would be my answer to the question.

All right?

And I know you.

You had some quotes you wanted to get to.

You.

You want to swing back to try to defend your argument for legalism.

I'm sure from the beginning, I can do it.

I can just do it.

Real quick, just a.

Just a couple thoughts here.

One.

One, okay, citation, and one, I think, better citation.

But these.

These two sum up the.

What I had been taught in regard to the real problem with legalism.

The real problem is not high standards, but it's the question of why am I doing.

Why am I keeping the high standards?

Am I trying to gain favor with God?

Tony Reinke says that legalism is the lie that says God's pleasure and joy in me is dependent upon my performance rather than the finished work of Christ.

So it's about what I'm doing, earning favor.

And John MacArthur defined legalism as the religion of human achievement.

And he went on to say that the core of legalism is a denial of grace.

And I think that's the key point I was trying to make earlier, that a person can have high standards, and they would be biblically high standards.

That would be standards.

Like, for example, I don't like that.

I. I would not attend a church where they play drums and have electric guitars.

Okay?

I have a very high standard, and it's based off of principles.

And I would not argue that anyone else needs to follow these.

But I would believe that Aaron Brewster glorifies God by following this.

Just because I have a high standard doesn't mean I'm being legalistic.

Now.

If I somehow thought that God was more pleased with me than he is with you because we don't have drums on stage now, I'm moving into legalism.

If I somehow think that I'm gaining favor or gaining salvation or really gaining anything from God because I'm better than you are, specifically in these areas that are not identified in Scripture, then we definitely are falling into the issue of legalism.

And it's not just so much a question of the.

The height of the standard.

All right, let me go to Eve with the question about the gospel.

Eve, how does your understanding of the Gospel shape your philosophy of worship?

Well, I think I even mentioned this earlier, that when we were talking about creativity.

I feel like worship is how we express our joy in what God has done for us.

The.

That, you know, I think it was.

You know, Jesus told them that if.

If I made these people be quiet, even the stones would cry out.

This is his creation expressing joy in the very existence of God and what he has done for us.

And I. I see worship as that.

As something that.

It's a heartfelt expression of my.

Just how much God means to me and how.

What Jesus did for me and.

And I expressed that through worship.

So.

Sorry, I'm getting emotional because it's an emotional thing for me.

And so how that expresses the gospel is.

If you haven't experienced the saving grace of God, then I don't.

I think your worship will always be hollow and shallow because you're not worshiping out of a heart that has been saved and everything that Caleb and Aaron said as well.

Rebecca, you're last.

So how would you answer how your understanding of the Gospel will shape your philosophy of worship?

Well, it's funny, when just listening to Eve talk, I thought of the verse, he who've been forgiven much, loves much, and having a correct view of the Gospel and knowing exactly what Jesus has done takes the focus off of ourselves and it puts it directly on Christ and hence we're worshiping in spirit and truth.

But because conversely, if we have an improper view of the gospel or a shallow view, our view, our worship is going to be superficial.

So the more we realize our sinfulness, the death of God's grace, the more profound our gratitude and then the more humbled and reverent we are.

And the natural response to that is, is going to be that worship, you know, that joy, it's going to, to flow out of us and not just corporately, as we've discussed here.

You know, it's not just in church, but it is in every aspect of our lives.

And so knowing again, the gospel and how much we've been forgiven really, I think humbles us.

And again, it comes out in worship.

Yes, and I think with what you said, you know, I think of the illustration from John MacArthur that, you know, the deeper our theology, the, the greater the worship.

And he illustrates it by saying, you take a ball and you put it into the water and if you hold it down under the surface just a little and let go, it'll bob up just a little.

But the deeper you push that ball down, when you let it go, the higher it will rise out of the water.

And our worship really should be something like that.

The greater we understand the gospel and what wretched sinners we were and how undeserving of heaven we are, then the greater we have of that worship.

It's going to be.

There's a one to one correlation between the deepness and richness of our theology and understanding of who God is and what he did for us and our worship.

And so where so many churches try to manufacture our worship through the worship service, through singing repetitive the one line over and over and over again to try to create an emotional feeling.

That.

Is that shallow worship that has a.

Because it comes from a shallow theology.

But when you have a deep, rich theology that is grounded in deep, rich lyrics of music, then you will have a, a deeper, richer, higher worship.

And so, yes, I think there's a direct correlation to your understanding of the, the gospel, to your view on worship.

And if, if you get nothing out of the different views we've been talking about, may you as a listener at least get that, that the deeper you go in the study of the word of God, in an understanding of who God is and what he has done and how undeserving you are, the greater the worship will be, whether it is by the regulative principle or the normative principle.

From the beginning, you heard each one of the speakers here say that it's a heart issue.

It's not about the form.

It's about the substance.

It is about who we're worshiping and pleasing him, not trying to do something to make ourselves feel better or doing something legalistically so that we would claim that we're honoring God in a legalistic type of way.

No, what we must do is to worship God.

And the word worship means to find worth in it is to see how worthy Christ is.

It is to.

In Hebrew, the word literally means to bow an act of submission and dependence on someone who is greater.

And that is what we should be doing during worship, no matter what the form is.

That's.

That at least is biblical, obviously.

But whether it's the regulative principle or the normative principle, first and foremost, we should be having a right view and attitude of God.

And I would just think to close out with that as just an exhortation to us to consider is that, you know, we can discuss these differences, we could debate these differences, but the one key thing I would have for us to remember is that we're here to worship a great and holy God.

This is a ministry of striving for eternity.

And so with that, folks, we just encourage you to continue to share this episode with others and listen to not only the Theology Throwdown podcast, but all the podcasts at the Christian Podcast community.

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