Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, where dog guardians meet real talk expert advice and Waggy tails. I'm your host Nathan Dunleavy, and today I'm gen, generally thrilled and so excited to be joined by someone whose name has come up in so many of our previous episodes. Sarah Fisher is here. Sarah is a behaviour counselor educator and the founder of Ace. Animal centered education and her free work method has inspired dog professionals and pet guardians worldwide. It's all about understanding the dog in front of you, not just managing behaviour, but seeing beneath it. Today we're talking about observation, gentle guidance, trust building, and what it really means to walk beside your dog rather than control them. If you've ever felt like there's something more, your dog's trying to tell you, this one's for you. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started. welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan D. Levy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour Today. Even more exciting that we have the amazing Sarah Fisher joining us today. Hi Sarah. Welcome to the Yappy Hour. How are you?

Hi Nathan. Thank you for inviting me. I'm great. Thank you.

You are most welcome. You are very busy lady, and I appreciate you taking the time to well spend your, we're recording on Friday evening in, in, in June, well, July. No, it's early July. July now. And I appreciate you taking the time 'cause you are very busy lady and I'm just been so looking forward to this chat. So, Sarah ace free work, we're gonna be chatting all about ACE free work. So for our listeners and viewers, ACE stands for Animal Centered Education. Sarah, for those dog guardians who have never heard of free work, how oh, actually I'm asking the, the wrong question to start. That's because I've got so excited that I've chatted to you. I've literally gone in like on the wrong question. Right. Wee ride. Brilliant. Right. Anyway, how did your passion for animal behaviour and welfare begin? Please, Sarah.

Oh, great question. Right back in childhood, both of my parents, both pate grandparents had animals. Dogs were a huge part of our lives for generations, and my father in particular would always remind me that the animals that were part of our family were there because we'd invited them in. They hadn't chosen to be with us, and as a result, we had to always put their needs first. He was also obsessive, but really, really, you know, instilled in me that need for animals to have access to fresh water at all times, to have their needs met, took care of our own needs. And so that whole connection with animals and choice and being sentient beings and being a, you know, a very much valued part of our family was instilled in me in a, in a very early age. And my Aunt Labrador

Love that.

in the left hip. And as a child I was told we could, you know, pet him. If he enjoyed that, we could engage with him. But we were not to touch him on the left hip because it was uncomfortable. And if he growled, we would be the ones that got into trouble. So, you know, just so much knowledge

Yeah.

from a really early age that I think drives

Wow. Yeah, I absolutely love that. Love that so much. I'm a, I'm a bit of a late bloomer. I didn't get my first dog tour about 10 years ago. And now I'm obsessed because I've got seven dogs. So, like the crazy dog man.

That to me, my parents wouldn't lemme have

Yeah, it is.

Yeah. Sorry. My parents wouldn't let me have a

Oh.

when I was young, so they didn't want me to, you know, grow out of the pony and then we'd have to rehome the pony. That would be too awful. And we couldn't have afforded two ponies, so I wasn't allowed one. So as soon as I was able to start collecting horses, I did. And at one point, I think we had 15.

Wow. Brilliant horse collection. Well, I, yeah, I waited until I met my husband and we've got a house together. 'cause I'd lived in a flat and I was like, right, we've got a house. We're settling down, getting a dog.

Good.

then seven dogs later here we are.

Life's I love it.

brilliant. It is complete. Yeah. We wouldn't have it any other way. So Sarah, thank you so much. What led you to the development of ACE Free work please?

Nathan, that's an hour long answer in itself. I, I have been known to speak for 45 minutes without drawing breath, answering one question as people that have heard me speak before can confirm.

You said that offline.

Yeah, so a lot. I think big part of free work is influenced by my childhood. Again, when I was on holiday in Portugal with my family, long before Portugal became a tourist destination and hotspot, we would rent a villa in this tiny town that's now, I'm sure, hugely popular. And my sister and parents would be sunbathing on the beach. And I'd be off exploring the rock pools in the company of some of the street dogs, and they were free roaming dogs that belong to the community. And I would kind of be adopted by a dog, or maybe I adopted a dog I'd have a companion every day for the fortnight that we would be there. And it, it just. Was just the richest part of, excuse me, I've got hiccups that hit holiday experience for me. Didn't have any toys, didn't have any food. It was just the joy of exploring. the same at home. I was lucky enough to buy my own dog when I was 11 with money that I'd been gifted in a will. I also had sort of collected a number of dogs from our local neighborhood who I would take up onto Eps and Downs where I grew up and enjoy their company. Just exploring and roaming, you know, thank you to all the adults that did give me the, you know, they're, they're companions to go off and spend many happy hours exploring the downs with. I think that kind of freedom, that connection, that exploring, that joy of just being in the company of dogs. And I've been, I've been obsessed with animals since I. As far as I can remember, so that exploration element, 100% influences free work. Then my original background human massage, anatomy and physiology and supporting people who, who are, you know, faced with losing their children. It was due to a friend of mine whose child was dying from a brain tumor and spent a lot of time at Great or Ormond Street Hospital. of sent me on that path of looking at human health and wellbeing and how if you can't influence an outcome, what can you do? We get a bit fixated on outcomes as a culture, but particularly in the animal education world. And of course in that environment you can't change the outcome, but you can support and hold and connect in a nonverbal way with people that are facing the most horrendous. Element of, you know, being, being a parent, you don't expect to outlive your child. So within that, there was a lot of learning about the connection between emotions and physicality. friend would walk into me and in the horse world that would be classed as dominance, the animal not respecting your space. And I just remember that she was so physically out of balance because of the emotional toll she was under. She had no concept of awareness of how she was navigating the corridors of Great Ormond Street Hospital. And from that human learning took me off down other paths that were really relevant to how we connect with animals. also spent time doing learning, doing and teaching tea touch so that also part of my

Yes,

background

lovely.

looking at how we could help dogs settle in the space that we'd created at Tilly Farm when they were new in that environment. So for my one-to-ones, I would have kind of enrichment engagements ready, but this was before the snuffle mat existed. you even imagine life before snuffle nights? And people would say, oh, my dog's not interested. dog's not interested in things like this. We've tried for, you know, foraging and the nose and everything, and I, I would raise the stuff off the ground so it wasn't at floor height. And suddenly these dogs were really interested not to the amazement of their caregiver. Because if a dog's physically and or

Yeah.

and the two often go together uncomfortable, they don't feel safe putting their nose to the ground changing the way they were able to engage with those items, not only help the dog relax. helped the caregiver relax. learning easier for both the caregiver and the dog. also what was really noticeable was the caregiver would share more of their story and their struggle with their companion. And the companion struggle with me earlier on in the session opposed to as many people will know, of skirting around the major that is causing such disruption in their life and only mentioning that at the end or towards the end of the session. And it's a really common thing that we have to build up trust. The person might only share more significant when they know they've got what I call the get out clause. It's time to leave, and we were having amazing outcomes. 'cause the dogs were so relaxed when we moved

Wow.

areas of the farm, the relaxed lead walking was like almost instant. They were less hypervigilant looking for wildlife. They were able just to stand and process the sight of my or the wildlife on the farm. they were kind of sowing the seeds for what we'd now call free work. And now it's this amazing integrated method by cookie Dough Dynamo who joined me in 2008, and Henry who joined me in 2000. 17 and cookie dough found the world overstimulating. And she totally changed the direction that I was moving in when it came to canine education because people were saying, train more. Train more. would navigate the world with her teeth, and she's only little All terrier. She's an amazing dog, super fast processor. And I did fall into that trap. But then I realized really quickly in teaching her lots of skills. A, she was brighter than me. B, she was always gonna be faster at learning than I could ever be. And CI actually wasn't helping her find contentment, connection, peace, tranquility. All I was doing was redirecting the way she interacted with her world. Into different scenarios, onto different objects. So teaching her to engage with toys saved my skin. I was black and blue, saved my trouser legs, saved

Wow.

you know, my shirt collar. But it didn't help her calmer and safer in sensory world. I was integrating my human knowledge with that and knowing the benefits of sensory. Input for people that had some form of cognitive dysfunction or disconnection to, you know, some areas of their body due to injury or disease states. I then looked more into that and came across the work of Gene Ays, who was an American psychologist who developed sensory integration theory, a way of supporting children and people with learning struggles, including with sensory overload and sensory overload. And that was the real start of free work, bringing everything in together.

Wow.

added even more structure to that in 2017. So it's become structured method of supporting dogs and enhancing education in its own right.

Yes. Wow. Fascinating. Wow, you answered that one a lot quicker than 45 minutes.

I am trying, Nathan, I'm trying. I've

doing well.

Yeah.

No, please.

Be

No, don't you worry. No, don't you worry. I absolutely love it. I've got a cookie, not a cookie day, but we have a cookie, so I'm glad you've got a cookie day.

I like that.

Brilliant. Sarah, do you know what Ace and Ace Free work, and you have been mentioned in so many past episodes of the Yappy Hour, everyone says ACE Free Work and Sarah Fisher. What does it mean to you seeing the reach and impact that it's.

It, it really, it really moves me and it really humbles me because I spend. of my life in a glorious ace bubble, connecting with people that are looking for this, learning, this way of supporting, this way, of improving observations and enhancing the lives of their animals, and obviously enhancing that relationship and, and their life with their animal. So I, I, I am blessed with an amazing ace community of incredible teachers, people that have been there from the beginning, my amazing ace instructor, colleague Sarah with, who's been there for 17, 18 years, since we started to explore

Wow.

of these concepts with the dogs of Baty, where I first met Sarah.

Yeah.

I see that reach, I see the feedback, I see the joy of new students seeing their dogs through new eyes. But I have no concept other than that of how far this spreads. And when somebody said to me recently, you have, you have no idea how many people talk about this. It, it kind.

Yep.

it, I'm not often lost for words, Nathan, but it really

Oh, bless.

quite extraordinary and really moving because I don't think I have developed free work. I don't believe I own free work. the dogs that have been a part of my life and the horses too have shown me power of standing back watching. More and doing less particularly Cookie Dough and Henry

Yeah,

a dog at

yeah,

showed me the value of having different textures on defer that saved his life. And these amazing animals are

yeah,

honored and they're changing lives, and they're saving lives through all they shared with me.

yeah.

to me is a very humbling experience. And yeah, I, I can't believe how far it's and how many lives it touches and

It.

I.

It really has. So literally every episode you get mentioned and so does Ace. So I was desperate to get you on and I know, you know you've been so busy and like, and I'm just so honored that you took the time to meet with me today because like I say, everyone said, oh, you have to get Sarah on. And everyone was talking about Sarah and Ace. And obviously I know about you through Andrew and some other colleagues and, and I was just desperate to speak to you 'cause I've got like, I, I follow you as well and I've got one of your books and yeah, it's just, I'm just really honored that you've come on. So I feel a bit starstruck myself, but it, no, it's been lovely that it gets mentioned on most episodes.

You are, you're so lovely. I'm so, I, I just get to meet incredible people like you and wherever we are on that learning journey, no one has more knowledge. We've just got different knowledge and different experience, and obviously really close friends like Andy Hale, you know, to be able to share the same space with people like Andy's and some of my amazing ACE colleagues as well. People like Sarah Heath, amazing veterinary behaviourists, who I've known for 30 years. Just feel

Wow.

I have been given such a great gift through connecting with these amazing, forgiving and giving animals and more and more voices that are sharing the same message. Just empower other

Yes.

to really reconsider how they connect with animals and live alongside animals and really help them reframe their thinking and question some existing beliefs that we've kind of all gone along with and repeated without necessarily stepping

Yeah.

and saying, on a minute, is this a human led experience? Or is dog actually trying to share different with us or would find it easier if we took time to stand back and learn from them instead of rushing in with our tips and ideas for problem solving? And that was something Cookie Dough taught,

Yeah.

me. Instead of me thinking, oh, oh, I

Oh

can teach you this and I can give you this experience and that will help you. It was like, stop. Just stop. does cookie

yeah.

to navigate her world? Where are the gaps in her learning

Yeah.

How can I extend her sensory reference library, giving her complete control of that learning experience that the world is not quite as overwhelming and as overstimulating as it is for this 20 week old. Puppy who's come through Batey to me as her fifth foster home. And I just

Wow.

I just

Bless.

people like you, Nathan, who are part of that sharing of these incredible adventures that we can have together and exciting new discoveries and really supporting people saying, you're not alone. If you are seeing what we are seeing and if what we are saying is really resonating with you, but you haven't maybe had the courage to stand up and say, I've learned, what I am being taught been a great experience, but it's not right for me and my animal companion.

Mm. Yeah. They're our greatest teachers, aren't they? And I just love when you say, you know, we just need, we just need to slow down. Less is more. Observe and listen, that's all we need to do.

One thing I'm

Oh, brilliant. Right. We're gonna move.

sorry. One thing, I'm sure I've,

Oh, go on. Please do.

yeah. One thing, for example, in free work, basically free work, think some enrichment engagements alongside education with exploration with the dog being the pilot of their home learning experience. And our role air traffic controller to guide them back to a safer flight path if necessary, or maybe be their co-pilot from time to

I love.

And we call what we would create as a snuffling opportunity or as a licking opportunity, a station. So we might have a base and then a topper. That could be a range of snuffle mats, different silicon mats. So we kind of create all these different layouts and then. We can modify that rule of, you know, not rule of thumb. Little, little tip. Generally you don't want the station higher than the top of the dog's front leg. So it's not about the dog stretching and it's not about the dog necessarily having to bend and pick everything up off the floor. We do put treats on the floor so the dog doesn't have to approach something that may be visually very different, anything that might be a novel texture before they're ready. And then we just kind of hang back

Yeah.

the dog's happy to explore on their own. But one, and we see these

Yeah.

patterns that we just have never observed in any other context, but the dogs have been doing them in other contexts, but we just haven't really been aware it's not been on our radar. And the main thing, one of the main things how people choose to greet people and pick up that data. And I 100% will have. Talked about or shared maybe taught, oh yeah, put your hand down, let the dog come and sniff the back of your hand. when we actually watch dogs in free work, guess what, Nathan? They don't do that. What they do is they explore their environment. The anxious dogs more likely to explore in an anti-clockwise direction. Not all, but a strong. Number, you know, high proportion of anxious dogs navigate the space in anti-clockwise So A, how does that fit with what we might do when we're out and the dog's on a leash? Because traditionally we handle our dogs on our left, so we are more likely to turn a dog to the right interrupt their needs to explore moving in an anti-clockwise direction. Some dogs need to stick to the boundary, the wall, first of all. So how can we replicate that? We need to avoid taking those dogs across open park land, keep to a hedge, you know, see what the dog needs when they're in a new space. And once they then start to explore free work, what they do is they just casually glance towards maybe two or three people, or maybe only one. Never the whole group back and forage in one of our very creative stations, and we named them after the dogs that inspired them. Then they lift their head up and air sense towards, go back to foraging and exploring. Then they start this casual walk by just one or two people, even if there's five or 10 people in the room. Then they go back to exploration, and then when they're ready, they come and start sensing if they're emotionally and physically comfortable enough to do it, the shoe and lower leg. Then they might walk by another person. Then they return maybe in a second session, maybe in the first session and sent from the hip up. Picking up more data from the trunk of the person before they orientate themselves in a way that they can air accent the person's breath. Hardly any dog, unless there's been a really strong reinforcement history, approaches the people first. They all explore first. Hardly any dog comes and actually sniffs the hand. And the only time they may sniff the hand is maybe that person has already engaged with their dog and has been laying food out in their free work. And then when you see this, you can't unsee it. So we see it in the shelter, we see it with puppies, we see it with dogs outside. When unfamiliar people are maybe in that space, some dogs will wait till the person's left to then scent where that person was standing, and it's mind blowing. So where did we get concept that dogs want to come and scent our hand? not criticizing that. I'm not saying it might not be a useful skill to teach some dogs, but we have missed so many amazing patterns. So many beautiful, nuanced. Engagement. So many subtle conversations free work literally puts a spotlight on everything. What dogs

Yeah.

to do when they're starting a session, many times they might repeat an engagement if we invite them to engage with us so we can add some life skills into that foundation of free work. What does a dog do

Yeah.

when they need to stop? Take a rest. go out to the bathroom, may maybe have a break completely. They finish finished. Clues are also clear, but they're so easy to overlook and muddle up with a dog wanting to learn more or do more. And the other amazing thing that's come out of free work is the majority of dogs will engage in explore free work for about 17 minutes. And then they need to stop and process. And this is well documented in humans. TED Talks are only 18 minutes long. So how can we then break down the learning experience for puppies, adolescent dogs, dogs and shelters that may never have learned any life skill at all? In one-to-ones, we obviously can't say, Hey, come and join a 17 minute puppy class. one's gonna do it. But we can break that learning experience down into 12 to 15, 17 minute little time budgets, and then follow that through with access to a chew. when dogs are processing in free work, what they tend to pick up are the bigger crunchier treats. It's a part of a sensory experience, and we need to think of food. Way beyond being a treat or re reward. It's a sensory experience. a way of really supporting that dog accelerating, enhancing, learning. But the dog will choose what they find rewarding, not what we think might be a

Yeah.

for them.

Yeah. Love that. It's all about the dog cheese in.

Yep.

Brilliant. If a guardian's never heard of free work, how would you describe it? In simple terms?

I would think about it being of enriching engagement. So we're gonna create

Yeah.

for the dogs to forage and chew and lick and explore. Scent, don't have to use food. We can create really exciting, novel, free work setups with household items. You know, my dogs always used to enjoy.

Yeah.

Laundry day or when I would come home with bags or shopping, or if I'd been in the company of other dogs and giving them the time to really pick up that scent data is really important. So we can create amazing

Yeah.

setups from household items that are obviously safe and stable. So we would put out three

Yeah.

different types of stations to begin with and just let the dog explore and think enrichment. really consider is it a really enriching engagement on a physical level and a cognitive and emotional level. Because sometimes with videos that I see online, and this isn't a criticism, I applaud anyone that's to trying to add value to their dog's life and meet their intrinsic needs, but sometimes those

Yeah.

offerings. physically because the dog's painful or they're creating frustration. So if I see teeth marks on anything including like a silicon mat for, for licking, or I see the dog biting at that,

Mm

may not be leaving teeth marks, what I see is body tension, frustration, not a rewarding experience at all. So free work brings

mm

elements that the dogs enjoy, but with it added of observations so we can ensure it's a

Yeah.

rewarding engagement on every single level. And I think it meets dogs' needs and it also engages every part of them, including, you know, their amazing sensory systems.

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that you've touched on observation because that's, oh, I don't mind at all. I love it. Observation, the power of observations, our next section. So why is observation such a key part to the ACE approach?

we've just started teaching module one, so that's our, part of our animal centered education training program. And we finished a module three the week before. Module one is just about the intro of observations. Looking at your dog's ear position, looking at how they organize their limbs at the stations in free work. How do they navigate that space? Do they need to explore in an anti-clockwise way? How can we take that learning into all areas of a dog's life? happening with their coat? Because it was a dog in the 1990s called Sandy in the care of the R-S-P-C-A showed me how. coat is influenced by what's going on in the structures beneath the coat. So I, I used to do a whole presentation on what lies beneath, sort of talking about the story and linking it in with, you know,

Wow.

films like Jaws and, you know, sort of making anatomical references and, and the whole concept was what lies beneath? Really helping guardians

Yeah.

to say, hang on a minute, my dog is pulling when on the lead, not because of a lack of learning, because they're front

Mm

because they've got mobility in the hind limbs. So they've shunted their weight

mm.

and they're pulling themselves along from the four quarters and the hair over the shoulders and the neck is really exaggerated. And I just thought that was part of their natural coat pattern. at the spread of the toes, how the tail is being carried. How do they carry their tongue? the tongue and the tail are connected through the fascia, they're also

Wow.

part of the dog's balance system. So it tells me when I meet a dog whose history I might not know, maybe when I used to do court assessments, they've been seized. I dunno anything about them. They're, they're held in secure kennels. Maybe they're in a shelter having been picked up as a stray with no history at all, it tells me a lot more about where this dog is at their mobility in there learning experience, how they're responding to. Some of the stuff we'll have out in free work gives us so many more clues about all these little threads that weave together to create the more obvious picture coat patterns are now widely recognized. And it's thanks to a dog called Sandy in the 1990s who really opened my eyes

Wow.

to, yeah, this incredible story that is told just through the dog's coat, nevermind everything else. So we want to establish the

Yeah.

We want to establish a baseline for a dog. And our module one students are saying, oh my goodness, my dog crabs to the right. Oh my goodness, I never noticed the dog's ears were unlevel the ears

Yeah.

neck. The neck linked to balance, obviously, and the dog will overuse that four part of their body if they've got hip issues, knee issues, lumbar spine issues. So lots of dogs with unlevel ears. Often have undiagnosed chronic pain in the hind limb, and when we can help them gather data for the vet, we can then have obviously pain addressed, bring in other people, veterinary physiotherapists, and support all that through free work. We have amazing outcomes where the le ears become more level, the tail is central instead of always hanging to the left or the right, the tongue has got more freedom of movement instead of maybe always hanging to one side because of a curve in the body where the dog was trying to offload painful structures, but it was so subtle, the caregiver wa wasn't aware of it at all. So observations are the starting point, and they're an ongoing element

Yeah.

And I really encourage people to look

Yeah.

photographs, look at still photographs of your dog as a puppy. Look at how they sit, how do they organize their body when they need to defecate, do they have to Do they have to, you know, do sort of circular movements or move forward? Are they unable to maintain that squat position? That's all indicative of potential chronic pain or poor balance. And obviously the two are connected. if they scratch the ground after or defecating, they lift one leg higher than the other? Do they only scratch with one limb they scratch their neck response to wearing equipment or. You know, if they've got some level of discomfort or emotional concerns, do they only scratch one side of their neck? Is it because they can't scratch with the other? We, we start piecing all these amazing clues together and people in the first, you know, experiences of ACE and free work have been able to get the diagnosis of luxating patella, hip dysplasia, lumbosacral disease, even in young dogs that

Wow.

that you wouldn't think would be suffering from such chronic conditions. And most of those dogs were sensitive to unfamiliar people. Some of them had a bite history. And we share that emotional journey in our zooms, in our practical workshops at the farm. You know, we, we literally weep with relief for this dog and this caregiver and this beautiful

Yeah.

that's now able to blossom because the animals pain free. And then we have amazing people. We have a veterinary

Wow.

teaches on one of the modules, and Sarah Heath teaches as well. So, know, it's all adding layers to say, watching, keep watching. And you know what, me

Yeah.

people use the word, oh, your dog doesn't respect you. And they know, I don't, I don't really listen

Oh.

kind of stuff and I don't get involved in conversations. For me, the word re respect means to look again, re as in return. and SPECT as in spectacle, spectator

Yeah.

Look,

Yeah.

looking, keep looking, because there is

And keep looking.

For behaviour, and there is always a reason for movement. And movement is the foundation

Yeah.

Without movement, voluntary and involuntary, life can't exist. So we need to look at the quality of that movement. If your dogs always trotting, are they really keen are they trying to offload painful structures by moving quickly?

Mm-hmm.

things to look at and to to discover. we could want to know about Our companions is right there in front of us, Nathan.

Yeah, definitely. Is there any examples that you could share of any subtle signs that dogs show us that are often missed by people

Oh gosh. Loads. Absolutely loads.

like, yeah.

yeah, I mean one of the things that I noticed was when a dog starts staring at a treat pouch or starts counter surfing in the teaching rooms where we have the kitchen area, it is so easy to misinterpret that as the dog looking to learn more, looking to work or being greedy and looking for more food. And it's not, it's a sign that the dog needs a break. So they are defaulting to well practice behaviours or moving into a, you know, familiar environment. A kitchen. It's not theirs, but it's a kitchen. It's a clearly a kitchen, and I think we misinterpret. When a dog needs to process what we are teaching them, we're not mindful of this 17 minute time budget, and the dog starts to kind of offer lots of well practice behaviours or default to breed specific behaviours that require no thinking because they're, you know, bred into the dog. We see it as a request to do more with us, or the dog defaulting and disengaging. And it's not, it can be a sign that the dog's utterly overloaded and just needs a break. So if I need a

Yeah.

writing, I do something that doesn't require much thinking. I just walk out and I admire on our farm, the donkeys and the horses that I can kind of integrate what I'm trying to think about and put on paper. not me displacing. It's me exploring and giving my brain time to piece everything together with a behaviour that doesn't require me to think about it. 'cause walking. We don't have to think about walking unless we have a physical challenge with walking. don't need to think about being around horses because they're so familiar to me. Does that make sense? So we've missed all these little

Yeah.

signs and the, we need to talk about comfort eating in dogs because I see this, they start to request this food when they don't

Wow.

else to do. They also look for crunchy treats to consolidate that learning. And we also need to be

Mm-hmm.

the sensory side of biting all the youngsters that I've been privileged to learn from over the years, like cookie dough and Henry and other dogs too, they've all had to navigate their world using their teeth with, you know, significant intensity on humans. But we know in children and adults that are struggling with sensory input, they too use their teeth because using the teeth helps to process that sensory experience. And biting on something can also help to maybe manage discomfort as well. And physical and emotional discomfort are intertwined. And we, we have this weird thing in the human world where we kind of equate biting with either mouthing, we recognize as a learning element to this, but it's mouthing or it's aggression. And even in the human world, if we are overcome with emotion, just deep love for a baby, an animal, a partner, we might feel that urge to sink our teeth into them. And even that. the word aggression in it. 'cause it's called cute aggression, but it's not an intent to do harm. It's a way of managing this overwhelming sensation in the body created by love. So there's just so much we need to explore. There's so much that we want to compartmentalize and have quite a black and white outlook on it, and dogs are so much more beautifully nuanced than we could ever hope to be as a two-legged species who's woefully, you know, in inadequate in terms of sensory processing. That's how I feel. We,

Yeah.

we need to be

Brilliant.

student of the dog and not fixate on being their teacher.

Great, brilliant. I love that. Moving on to our next part, which is all about connection over control. I hate the word control. So connection over control. How can guardians begin to shift their mindset from fixing an inverted behaviours to understanding an inverted behaviours instead?

Join free work, the help of some of our amazing

Yeah.

or, you know, or create free work for

Yeah.

we give a lot of information away. Excuse me, it's too good not to share. As I said at the beginning, it belongs to the dogs. It was created and developed by dogs, for dogs and other animals. just start to see your dog, sorry, excuse me, with new eyes.

No worries.

and let them teach you. And then we start to realize how our dogs are able to build connection with themself when we create free work for them. Connection with us and connection with other elements of that external environment. the more we focus on the dog's internal environment, the less disruptive that external environment will be, and we start to kind of mirror each other. We don't need to teach life skills in the way that maybe is more traditional in repetition and fun and everything. If we teach these skills within the framework of free work, the dog can opt in and out of that engagement and we learn more about their learning preferences. We also in Ace, talk about, your dog really distracted or has the dog just disengaged from what you're inviting them to do? Dogs don't lose focus. They shift focus. And we always want to ask ourselves

Yeah.

question? Everything. Everything you see,

Yeah.

you hear in your wonderful podcasts, including the one that they might be listening today, question everything, but never question the dog. The dog is always right.

Mm. Yeah. Love that. Thank you, Sarah. What role does environment and choice play in canine wellbeing, please.

To me, it's fundamental to wellbeing. If we don't have control over even some aspects of our environment, it can make us feel really unsafe. So at Titty Farm, we make sure the dogs know where the exit points are, even if they've come in from one end, and they might be connecting with their caregiver and free work at the opposite end, that we make sure that they know. But they know that dogs are amazing. make sure that the doors are open, if the dogs are worried. If the dog's really fearful, we drive. Or we don't. We get the caregiver to drive their car into that free work space so the dog can leave their car when they're ready and return to their car as soon as they're able. And I call it a get out clause. You know, everybody wants a get out clause when signing a contract. So for me, the more control a dog has over their environment and their interaction with us, the deeper the trust, easier it is for the dog to say, woo, I'm struggling with a really quiet whisper instead of having to shout. So to me, it's fundamental. It's a really intrinsic need in us all. all need agency.

Yeah.

you can't have choice. So it's not about saying to dogs. You get to do what you want all the time. 'cause life isn't like that for any of us. But when Henry

Mm.

joined me, he'd get really frustrated really quickly if a door wasn't open going into the free work area. So I just started having all the doors open so he could get there straight away. But as he started to slow down, I could keep the door, one of the doors shut, have all of them open apart from maybe the last door, and then I could have doors in the building shut then I could leave them. I could, you know, leave them locked and unlock them with him because he knew he was gonna be able

Yeah.

access this wonderful experience. He started to self-regulate. I didn't try and teach him, I just let him find that rhythm for him himself. more we meet a dog's

Mm-hmm.

The more peaceful and contented they are in all aspects of their life. Nathan?

Yeah, definitely. I'm loving. We're seeing these words, consent agency and choice a lot more now, and there's more of a shift to these, you know, that way, and it's so important. So ace in everyday life, how can free work be integrated into daily routines? Are there some simple ways we can do it at home or on a walk?

absolutely a great question. yeah, making sure that

Yeah.

have got access to Forage sent spend quality time with you when we're not engaged in at our devices, doing work on our computer. I started to just kind of hang out with Henry for 10, 15 minutes a day

Hang out with your dog.

not listening to music,

Love her.

and it was amazing and. If the dog's worried about going into the outside world for a walk, think about what does a walk mean. So for me with Henry, it means quality time together, moving over different substrates, different terrain. So he is moving his body in a different way that walk, using his nose, picking up data from the wildlife. Other dogs maybe foraging for blackberries 'cause he loves blackberry season. All of these things, yeah, are really important to Henry and they're important for me to enjoy that experience with him. I don't want to walk along with, you know, my nose buried in my phone. So if a dog can't do that for whatever reason, or the person can't, maybe the person's got anxiety or mobility issues, we can bring the outside world in so we can create free

And yeah.

elements. We had somebody who was supporting that were gonna end up going to a beach, but they were really fearful. They were through rescue. So they started free work at home with really simple stations. Not overwhelming. The dog started to add in more snuffle mats and when the dogs were really comfortable and content in free work, they brought sand from the beach in sea water, seaweed. They started

Love.

in some of the

Love it.

and, you know, visual information. The dogs will meet and explore when they first venture out onto that, that beach. we can take as

Wow.

in free work and say, I need to raise my dog's food bowl. need to cover the slippery floors in my home, because that's influencing how my dog moves. I need to

Yeah.

my dog gets to explore a new environment moving to the left because that's what I've seen them do in free work. I am no longer gonna ask my dog to go and sniff the back of a person's hand. I'm going to let them day together. gonna take crunchy treats out on a walk. So when my dog to disengage and seem distracted, gonna recognize I may have walked for too long, worried and they need to decompress with these crunchy treats that they've shown me they enjoy and need in free work. We can take literally everything we learn from our companions in free work and bring it into every aspect of our life, and people are using it, Nathan, for supporting their dogs. With all sorts of aspects of canine welfare, education, and care. It's, a game changer.

Yeah,

simple. It's really

I,

it's great fun.

yeah, it, yeah, it is. And, and that leads us on to how it can help, like nervous and adolescents and rescue dogs, Sarah. It can be really beneficial, can't it?

Oh my goodness. It saves lives. Nathan Adolescent Dogs are my favorite age

Yeah.

They are the dogs that have been my

Oh

tutors by far, and they're the dogs as well. That made me go,

wow.

let's rethink this. So Cookie was five months old when she came to me, so starting adolescence. And she was a dog. As I said, that made me go, hang on. isn't about teaching life skills. That's beneficial, actually I need to learn more from her and give her more experiences that give her control over those experiences. So for adolescent dogs, have an innate need to climb. Puppies do. So climbing on furniture, important for adolescent dogs, but maybe not so beneficial for every caregiver. Maybe they don't want their dogs on furniture. Maybe some family members struggle with dogs being on furniture, it's not the dog trying to dominate. It's meeting a really important need to strengthen the function of the entire nervous system, including the vestibular system, which is linked to balance. And if climbing wasn't such an important part of development, there wouldn't be any play parks for children with climbing apparatus. There wouldn't be.

Mm.

Young beings need the opportunity to climb. So in free work, we also create low, safe, stable platforms for the dogs to climb up and over, give them a new experience, and support that amazing sensory system. And for rescue dogs,

Yeah.

we can stand back, give them the chance to explore free from people that may cause some concern. We had a little rescue dog who she, she's kind of the poster girl for anxious dog. She had a terrible upbringing in a puppy farm, used as a breeding bitch. ended up being,

Oh

In Bat Sea and adopted by someone who's now one of our ace advanced tutors. And she was so fearful and her world had been so small there was, you know, a lack of important experiences during really critical periods of development that she, her, she, she just was really fearful and couldn't eat in front of her caregiver. she came down to Tilly farm just started with her bed, a pickpocket floor forger made by Cape Mallrat. Not sure we can advertise, but they're amazing.

You can advertise away, it's fine.

floor forage is amazing and free work and another texture. And, you know, for the first time started to leave her bed and eat, I spent most of my life crying in, in joy and relief of these amazing animals. I had to

That would be me.

Yeah, right. I gave her the pickpocket floor. Forger changed her world. Her caregiver just started to build on the free work, adding more and more novel things at a very slow pace. Then we could engage with her in free work, even though we weren't that familiar to her. Her life changed beyond belief, thanks to her amazing caregiver dean. So for that fearful dog who's terrified in the corner, don't try and coax them out. Just put food down and one tip might be to put food down wearing a glove because lots of fearful dogs can't take food. That's got your scent on it because your sense overwhelming for them. Or enlist the help of a confident dog that's already explored free work that that fearful shelter dog can observe and then maybe join provided. Of course, their confident dog is comfortable around other dogs and stuff, not always easy in a shelter environment. This work started thanks to shelter dogs. It changes their lives. It saves their lives. Can it save every dog? No.

Wow.

Should we be saving every dog? Unfortunately, no. But it's wide, widely used at Batter Sea and many other shelters, and it enhances the life of the dog while they're in the shelter. It helps the behaviour teams develop protocols. On that foundation of what might help the dog find a home, but also stay in the home. So some of the, and it, and also the sta some of the station concepts started in the shelter Sea, where we were seeing dogs being hypervigilant, coming out of kennels and scanning the horizon and pulling on the lead. And I said, let's give them really easy targets. And we put food bowls out in serpent times the dogs could actually start looking down, looking for those easily identifiable objects. a matter of, you know, half an hour doing little breaks in between, they were no longer scanning the horizon. They were actually engaging the seeking system and their whole world started to open up as their confidence increased. So, yeah, I mean, it's,

Wow.

it's for every dog it really is. And you know, every day

I love that.

and colleagues when we're talking and connecting or emailing each other, including people at Batey we all say, did we do before free work? did we do? Because it's such a great way to build a relationship, build confidence, build trust, and deepen connections.

Yeah. I love that. Thank you so much. Sarah. How is Ace being used beyond Pet Guardian? Oh, we've actually touched on shouters and things like it's being used in vet clinics, is it? And

Well,

yeah, it's being used in vets as well, and groomers.

And vets sometimes ask for their caregiver, the caregiver to film a free work session because they can see more gait changes when the

Yeah,

in

that's a good, good idea.

We have some vets going through the courses

Yeah.

have some vets teaching on the courses. And we've just had, in our module three, we asked people to put this little recipe for success together using all the ACE ingredients they've learned through their modules. One, two, and three. one of the group on the last module three put together ACE Elements, a Cookbook for Supporting Animals with Veterinary Care. And one of the group members who put that recipe together is a vet and it, I was reading it again this morning, sobbing, Nathan, the thinking, the care, the compassion, how they're building confidence. Just so beautifully constructed, so rich all the elements that they've included. Because confidence in a veterinary setting doesn't start at the vets, it starts at home.

Mm

knowing they've

mm

ability to say, wait, I'm struggling, or No,

Yeah. Yeah,

it's applicable to everything. So groomers use it to build relationships. Sue

yeah, yeah. We've had,

groom.

you literally just took the words out. You took the words out my mouth. We've had Sue on, and she said how she uses it, and she's one of the ladies that said. To ask, get, get you on.

Oh, amazing.

Yet she's using it for grieving all the nervous, nervous dogs and

I, I dunno, a situation where it wouldn't be beneficial, but, but of course I

yeah.

Police dogs, dogs doing free work before and after Bite work, sent detection dogs. I mean, it's, it's mind blowing. It just helps the dogs reset, rebalance, and sort of reconnect, mind blowing.

Wow. Is it helping any other animals? Not just dogs benefiting from this method?

That's

Can imagine horses and cats

Horses is amazing. And another

obviously.

for success. Yeah. Sorry. Another person who did the recipe for success for, for veterinary care lovely videos up of their horse doing free work. It's amazing for all animals. We've had people doing it with rats. We've had people, you know,

Oh.

of Exactly. Doing it with all range of animals in their care. Sters, I mean, just

Wow.

It's really fun.

It's, it's, yeah. And it just helps cement that relationship and build that bond.

Yeah.

Oh my God. We've literally soured through this episode. It has been jam packed. It's gone really quick. I could, I could speak to you all day. And I've listened to you on a couple of Andrew's webinars before. We will be hanging out next week. I'm gonna be, no, I'm gonna be meeting up with Andrew and, and stuff on, you know, on the Friday and I'll be there all weekends. So we will be hanging out. I'm a hugger so I dunno if you are. But. Yeah, so for our listeners, I mean, it is, it is beginning of July at the moment, but this episode will go out in a couple of months. But we are gonna be at the A BK conference next weekend. And Ashford Kent, Daniel Shaw who's been on the yappy hour as well, so that's why we're talking about meeting up next weekend. So it's gonna be lovely. So Sarah, like I said, I've listened to you before on some Andrew's webinars and I get to meet you next week. I cannot wait, but a quick fire round as we bring this episode to a close. So what's one free work item you cannot live without? Sarah.

I think mini snuffle mats because we can put them in piles for dogs to forage through like leaves and we can create kind of pyramids so that dogs have got the station height that's most accessible for them. So I think when we can use them as sensory trays, we can use 'em in so many ways. That's my go-to. If I could only have one item, it would be that

Brilliant. What's the

the observer book of dogs that I had as a child, it was a little red covered book. I had one on horses and one on dogs, and I used to read both of those, learning about the different breeds and yeah, my, it was my constant companion. So I think I have to go right back to my childhood and say that, and also the incredible journey, another huge childhood

that, no, I love that. What's one thing you wish every dog Guardian knew? Sarah?

How to really start considering what a painful landscape looks like for their animal companion. Because chronic pain is so difficult to identify in a veterinary setting, the space is too small. There's not enough time. animal's not relaxed, the caregiver's not relaxed. It's really difficult for the vet. So I would love more people to fall in love with learning ace observations because with good observations, we can ensure our companions are living the best life possible.

Brilliant. Okay. What's one gentle shift you'd encourage every dog guardian to make today, Sarah?

I think to really stand back, watch more, and do less, and really think about providing income for the dog and not focusing on outcome, move away from that sort of goal-oriented way of thinking and enjoy being in the moment with these amazing animals. And if we are gonna be a teacher, what we need to make sure is we are a really good student, so be a great student of your dog.

Love that. Sarah, how can people learn more about you? Ace free work if they want to get in touch.

We have two websites, tilly farm.org.uk. A little bit of information quite an old website, also we have animal centered education.com, which is our teaching platform that we use. So there's a little bit more information on

Yeah.

and you can see a list of the courses that we run. So we do online courses. We do online and in-person courses combined. Or you can attend an in-person workshop at Tilly Farm as a standalone event. And we also on Tilly Farm website

Yes,

of our amazing practitioners, trainers, associate tutors, advanced tutors, and associate instructors and instructors. So also connect with someone either in your area who or who also offers courses online. team are amazing.

yes.

amazing.

Yeah, I definitely need to get down to Tilly farm sometime as well. It's on my list to do.

Oh, please do.

Sarah Fisher, thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour, powered by today. I've absolutely loved speaking to you. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you so much and I can't wait to give you a hug in person.

I'm really looking forward to it, and I'll, I'll see you very soon.

Thank you.

Wow, what an incredible conversation. Oh, I can't go over it. It was absolutely amazing. I could have listened to Sarah all day long. Um, if there's one thing I hate you take from this episode, it's that our dogs aren't projects to fix. They're individuals with stories, feelings, and needs. Sarah reminded us of the power of observation to pause. To notice the small shifts in movement or behaviour that tell a much deeper story, whether you live with a bouncy puppy, a nervous rescue, or a senior soul ace free work gives you the tools to meet your dog where they are and maybe. Just maybe it gives us space to grow alongside them too. You can learn more about Sarah's incredible work@www.tillyfarm.org.uk, and we will put all of the links in the show notes and if today's episode resonated with you, please consider sharing it. Leaving us a review and help us spread the message that there's more to, more than one way to walk beside, beside our dogs. Until next time, take care and keep those towels wagon.