Hi, I'm Jesse Hirsch, and welcome to Metaviews, recorded live in front of an automated audience.

And today, perhaps we're looking at antidotes.

Perhaps we're looking at a path to sanity.

It's the smart of art with my new friend Michael.

And you know, Michael, I start every show in kind of the tradition of most media by starting with the news.

And I do this partly because Metaviews publishes a daily newsletter.

And this daily newsletter today was looking at social media.

The idea that we are in a real pivotal point in terms of how social media is constituted, how people use social media, that the ongoing politicization of social media.

But often this is really an opportunity for me to throw to the guest and say, is there any news that you'd like to share?

This could be personal news.

This could be world news.

This could be something that, you know, has caught your attention, however small, that you want to share with the world.

Oh, I'd love to share that one.

You're going to love this, Jesse.

Okay, AI, this came a couple days ago to me.

That's my news that I pick up.

Yeah.

Yes, yes.

So AI stole.

So we created something else.

I always knew that, that we put all our energy and creativity in our product.

Products like the cars, the technology, all that stuff, right?

But we are not actually putting anything in our consciousness awareness, you know, so a lot of people, you know, try to measure that.

And they said, yeah, we put technology is about 400.

And I never believed that.

400.

I said three to 400 times more evolved is technology than humans.

So when we created a knife, right, the knife didn't tell us what to do.

We know to cut a sausage or stab somebody.

That's what we found out.

Or we carved something in woods.

Now, we have done that so much in technology.

Computer was gotten crazy, but we never even focused on ourselves, right?

So we are crazy.

We get on drugs.

Our mind is whacked out because we're not evolving, but we help evolve technology.

And now AI is so much evolved that we.

And we have not evolved.

So we just give up and say, AI is the greatest thing.

You don't need anything anymore.

Jesse, come on, stop it.

Just go to ChatGPT.

It will tell you.

So what we did with that, because 20 years ago, it was like you had knowledge.

You were an expert, you, you had value.

Now you have no value because we eliminated knowledge from literally one year to another.

Knowledge is irrelevant.

Awareness is.

That's what you and I do.

The awareness of what, what we're doing, what we're talking right now, but because AI can never have awareness.

It can have knowledge, but it can never have the awareness.

But this is the.

This is how.

I mean, not only does it take our jobs that are repetitively.

Because the moment AIC is a repetitive job, we can.

It will do it because nobody wants to deal.

See, technology doesn't want to deal with humans because they're not as accurate.

They're not.

And so also cost money.

So no, let's.

So starving humans, you know, and.

And we are knowledge either.

We are definitely going to spend some time shortly talking about awareness.

Although you have evoked quite conveniently the subject of our second segment, which we call WTF or what's the Future?

Because as a future focused podcast, we like to ask our guests, is there something that you are.

That you have your eyes on?

It could be that something you're looking forward to in the future.

It could be something that you see as a challenge in the future.

It could be again, something personal in your own future.

I think it's a segregation of what I talked about.

It's the segregation.

I think the world, it's already segregating into technology, AI, world, robotics, and the other one will rediscover humanity because it took us, you know, billions from a one seller to being human.

It's millions of years.

And we believe we can access that knowledge and study nature, which when we study nature, we actually learn, really learn.

And also we evolve too, because we are part of it.

We cannot be against.

See, so that is one part.

The other part is going to be all technology.

We'll move to Mars.

We'll have move to anything.

It will be very hard.

And when you say segregation, do you mean like in conflict or do you mean completely separate?

Separate.

We won't see each other because we don't see each other now.

Because there's certain things.

You sit somewhere and people walk by you.

They don't even see you.

And also they're.

So is this the first thing?

Is this like two congruent worlds?

Like two worlds that coexist and yet they are completely distinct?

They're already.

There are already many parallel worlds already.

But the big one, the physical, will really segregate.

So that's, That's.

I'm curious.

Please elaborate.

Like, give us a vision of like, describe some examples, please.

Elon just said that they did with digital.

They did a digital copy of the world.

How can that ever work?

It took us millions of years to create and there's a couple of guys coming and in 10 years, they're going to create double the world in digital realm.

It's like the metaverse.

People are not even grounded in the now.

Here and now.

They go into another world, which is where they can be superstars, right?

Yeah.

But it's not fulfilling because we are all interconnected.

And so the delusion of we are not interconnected is in the technology world, we're in the natural world, in the human centric world.

We know we all interconnected.

We know we are part of nature.

We know that animals, for example, every dog is different.

Every single dog, any cat is different.

If you had a couple of cats, a couple dogs, a couple pets, they are different.

So this is going to be all more, you know, that's why I segregated.

You know, I was like till 50.

I was totally system relevant.

I wanted to just, you know, be the big shot.

Da, da, da, da.

I don't care.

I need to know anything.

I don't care anymore.

Because knowledge is gone anyway.

It's all about the awareness.

You know, part of the reason we have this what's the future?

Segment.

Right.

Is everyone's conception of the future is to preview where we're headed with this.

A form of awareness, right?

It's an expression of their awareness of their present and therefore their future.

But the other side to the future discussion is trust.

Because our sense of the future is very much a reflection of kind of who we trust and the stories we hear and which stories we trust.

So you've given quite a compelling vision of the future.

And where you and I have a lot of overlap, which we'll get into, is the human and nature being inherent and intertwined.

But do you trust?

But let me ask you this question.

Do you trust Mr.

Musk?

Do you trust the champions of AI and the predictions for the future that they make?

Or are you appropriating from their stories the pieces that match your awareness, so it's not so much that you trust them appropriate.

The second appropriate awareness.

I have nothing against.

Elon is a part of me.

I'm a part of Elon.

You too?

Sure.

We are all interconnected.

So he has free will and he can believe we're gonna get into a digital world and we're gonna move to Mars and we're gonna do this and whatever, but.

And also, I think he has a lot of fear also that we're gonna kill each other on the Earth and then that's why he has to go to Mars.

And it's just better surviving than even though it's not fun.

On Mars.

Beautiful, you know, this is so beautiful.

The Earth.

Well, he also believes that there aren't gonna be enough of us, which is why he's having children with anyone who will carry his child.

Right.

So I ask only because I, as a skeptic, that if.

If.

If he says left, I say right.

If he says jump, I say duck.

And to your point, it is based on the inherent connection that I share with him in our shared humanity.

And I just see him as a bizarro world that again, my instincts tell me to do the opposite, but I feel a real compulsion.

And this is where we.

We get into our feature discussion as part of every episode of Metaphys.

That was our turkey pres going in to nest in an old oak tree.

Let's talk about awareness.

Because it strikes me that awareness is both kind of central to.

To what it is that you do as an artist, as a philosopher, as an intellectual, but also we are at an interesting moment of collective awareness, an interesting moment of individual awareness.

And you alluded to it earlier when you said, you know, technology is evolving at this rapid pace, but what about humans, right?

And nobody even talks about it, right?

And in our lifetime, we are both of a certain vintage that our world has changed so much, and yet humans have not.

Right?

And I'm curious to hear that paradox that while we are at this moment where it seems the concept of awareness is starting to rise, that is becoming more conscious, people becoming more aware of being aware.

That's today's meta views.

And yet, as humans, are we evolving?

Are we adapting?

Please, Michael, I would love to hear your perspective.

We are not.

The only thing why we are not evolving is because we are so distracted by the technology and by the newest stuff of the new.

And then the only way even the media can hold on is also distracting us by selecting our.

Because nobody's perfect, right?

Selecting our faults and amplifying our thoughts like crazy.

Like, oh, King Charles didn't look right to his kids or whatever, you know, so.

So we.

It's.

It's.

The negativity is to get attention.

Yeah.

So.

So, so we do attention.

And it's.

And nobody knows.

We all try to survive.

And we are all in the.

In a scarcity.

You know, we created that over.

This is what I discovered is over generation.

It's never enough.

So if you and I make $100,000 right now, tomorrow we have to make 120.

So it's never enough.

So we can scale.

That's the secret.

What, all of a sudden, you know, 10 years, five years ago.

Everybody says scaling, scaling.

What is scaling?

Oh, expanding.

Okay, you expand.

But when you can't expand anymore, let's say we have.

In Ottawa, we have all horses.

Right.

We can't examine.

So what, what made us the number one horse tender.

Yeah.

Is.

Oh, because we're really good with horses.

We have enough personnel that knows we have the good hay, we have the good food, we have all this stuff.

And what happens then, you know, when we have scaled everything so there is only a one hour?

Because there's no opposite.

It's not hold cold.

Systemically hot cold, right?

Wrong.

But it's never enough.

No matter what.

Has no opposite.

It has only an alternative.

Safe costs, cost saving.

So when, let's say we have all the horses now we have to go cost saving.

Because we have always.

It's never enough every year.

So we go in cost saving.

So we literally castrate the very point that made us famous and made us number one in Ottawa, made us the kings of horses.

And we have to cut that because we have to save costs.

Less food, less blankets, less people that tend the horses.

The, the stable state don't get clean.

There's no, you know, we're just saving, saving, saving.

And then we take everything from humans.

We throw them out.

So it's insanity.

It's absolute insanity.

And that drives everybody for generations.

That's why the financial principles need to be updated.

They're outdated.

You seem to draw attention.

I'd like you to elaborate or unpack.

Which is between awareness and attention.

Right.

And almost as if there is that attention is part of the distraction and awareness involves attention, a different relationship with attention.

Am I reading you right there?

I wasn't even thinking.

Thank you for the making me aware of this.

I wasn't aware of that.

So.

Yeah, that is a kind of.

Absolutely.

I mean, look, we have knowledge, we have attention to become aware.

So we have to experience the physical life and we can do that with.

That's why everybody wanted to have knowledge.

So they became aware of the higher truth, you know, and knowledge is now gone.

So we have given, literally giving that up before we know, before we know how we going to value humans.

See now we have not.

Well, I'm always technology, technology, technology.

Now we, we don't value humans anymore.

So now that's gone.

How can humans ever go there?

Because everybody's in fight flight.

They want to survive.

So, so let's bring it then to, you know, the second pillar of our conversation, which is humanity.

Right.

What are the.

And this is a Two part question.

What are the methods to reclaim that humanity?

Right.

To reconnect with that humanity?

And the second part, how does that tie into our notion of awareness and collective awareness?

Because I assume that they're intrinsic.

Yeah.

The thing is, it's a loop.

Because if you're not, for example, if you're a woman and you wake up in the morning and you feel really sick, now the second time, sick.

So what did we eat?

Hey, tell me, Jesse, what we ate yesterday.

And you say, hey, do we have anything that's rotten or anything?

And then you go to a doctor on the third day and you find out you're pregnant.

Do you see how the whole perspective changes?

Because before you said you did a mistake, then you finally pregnant, that you wanted to be, you know, and it's just completely.

Because you believe what you feel, you know, and you say, oh my God, it must be that.

You always need an answer.

You must be this, it must be that.

But it often isn't.

And when doctors look at you, so you need to be aware.

It's a loop.

You cannot be aware of humans if you're not aware.

If you're not aware that humans, for example, are not segregated from nature, if science tells you we are segregated, we can do nature whatever we want, then we're not aware.

And where do you think that arrogance comes from?

I mean, beyond just science and arrogance?

Go ahead.

I don't think it's arrogance.

I think it's not aware.

I think people, for example, today, I think all the people want to do good, but good intent, you know, gets you into hell or something.

There's a wording, it's not about good intent.

It's about actually effectiveness.

Because nature is very effective.

If something doesn't work in nature, it adjusts, adapts, or extinguish the thing.

Is this an architectural issue in terms of the cement and the glass of a city environment disconnecting from nature versus in a more green environment in a more natural setting.

I assume it's easier to reconnect with that kind of that feedback loop that you're describing.

Yeah, yeah.

Because if, if you think you can just, oh, I have think I'm just, you know, it's never enough.

The financial principles, oh, I have a forest.

I'm just cutting the forest and sell the wood.

But sometimes I'm running out.

If I don't look at the sustainability, you know, I'm running out of it.

And this, the earth is very abundant.

And people said, okay, we just take that and we change this and we change that.

And now we know, we know it after the fact.

It's so sad that we have to really go into horrible state of being.

Millions of people are sick, million people are poverty, all this stuff.

And then we say, oh, now it's much harder than if you say, hey, we are what we are.

We are part of nature.

We are all interconnected.

We can't just be on linear binary thought to say, okay, this is what we do.

We have systems that are linear on binary thought, but once they establish people, just leave them alone.

And I'm very propagating that we need to go make life systems that are aligned to the consciousness that we have.

So we finding out tomorrow that this, when you do this with milk, it kills people.

We got to stop.

Or if it's this good, then we promote this is good.

This milk is good.

Or what I say, everybody is 101, a part of the whole, which is nature first, not God.

Give me some examples of these life systems, like some sort of.

And what I'm looking for here, again, short of utopia, is transitions.

Right?

What are the types of systems that help get us out of this current kind of negative feedback loop?

I think the first thing, what I would do, the first thing, what's so obvious is to update the financial principles and say, what is the opposite?

If it's never enough, no matter what we do, because that's rule.

What is the opposite?

I'm not having the opposite.

I probably think because we are human and because we are part of that, so we cannot segregate us out and saying, you know, it's never enough, no matter what, and then just say, okay, it's not.

Then the humans die, which is basically what it leads to.

Because, you know, we're creating a scarcity.

It's never enough, no matter what we do.

Even if, you know, in the parts of the world where we are abundant, there's overabundance of bullshit, you know, not overabundance of feeling good.

No, you have 250 cars.

You have, you know, not one house you need to have a house with.

But what is, what's the alternate system, though?

That's what I'm saying.

I'm making you aware of it.

I don't know what the alternate system is.

I'm saying if you're aware that humans are.

We are all one on one and we are not all the same, because that's scientifically proven.

We are, but we are one on one off the whole because nature doesn't make mistake.

It wouldn't make us.

It wouldn't make Jesse Jesse.

And there's not 15 other Jesse's running around, you know.

No, no, no.

Although I have googled on the Internet and there actually are a number of Jesse Hersh's out there, ironically enough.

Speaking of which, the smart of art is a fantastic phrase as we sort of get into the pillar of creativity and the role that creativity plays in awareness.

Tell me more about the smart of.

Art as a matter of fact.

Art creation.

Because I'm so neurodiverse, I couldn't do anything.

I stuttered, you know, I couldn't read.

And the people at that time, you know, 50 years ago, they said, oh, you have to still read.

We diagnose you as dyslexic, but you still have to do all the stuff everybody else.

So what the hell, it's like you are white, you are black, but it doesn't make difference.

So art was my savior.

Art creation, not art.

The art I liked also art, obviously, but the art creation and actually art creation made me aware of and that I went into the art creation and taught that and had my own class and whatever.

And I'm an art advisor and creativity advice.

And I don't know anything about history, art history, so I'm not interested in that.

I'm interested in the magic that happens when we create something.

You know, the correlation, the connection between creation and awareness and the feedback, you.

Know, the feedback of that you get to yourself.

So when you have little kids and they're crazy, then you say, hey, do something, create it.

And when the kid sees what they created, when they were in the upset, you know, state, they, they actually really, you see them shifting.

So when I, somebody angry and I put them into front of a thing and let him express the anger on the thing, they actually, you know, or showing that when he come down our sheep and show him this, they.

You see how that person shifts.

It's magic, you know, so, so, so that, that's, that's, that's the, the, the art got me actually in the human centricity because I saw there's no.

Oh, you need to.

When you see kids draw a house, right?

And a yard and the cat and whatever, every kid makes it different.

Every makes it one on one.

And kids don't say, oh, that's ugly or why do you do this?

It's just, it's just an instinct.

Yeah, the instinctual expression is so beautiful.

As an educator, as, you know, a champion of creativity, what are the sort of, for lack of a better phrase, Tools.

What are the emotional and cultural tools that you help people with so they can achieve that awareness, they can achieve that creativity?

Because art is something that is one of the biggest teachers and it gives you so much awareness of self.

You know, know thyself is oracle of Delphi.

You know, it's just know thyself is still.

I mean, nobody can refute that, you know, because know thyself is.

Know that your 101ness, that you are of the whole of whole nature.

Don't jump into God.

You know, when people jump into God, that's a problem because it's too far.

But if you just see it in nature first, you get a sense of godliness, of your own godliness, when you say, hey, I'm a part of this nature and a part of Jesse.

But would you recognize that very few know thyself, that we live in a society of distraction where there aren't the right rewards, there aren't the right encouragement, support for people to do what you're asking, even be creative, let alone try to know thyself?

Yeah, I think everybody knows themselves.

I think that.

But we are distracted.

So when I say to you, Jesse, okay, when you do this, this happens and you're not thinking it's happening to you, you know, I know it's a fact when you do this to that this is happening.

You know it, you have experienced it, but you're so distracted, you go right into it.

That's why people have.

Keep repeating, having accidents, you know, car accidents and whatever, even though they had had them.

I mean, if you, you, you have one accident, never anymore.

Good.

But it's just they're not learning.

They're learning, they're not becoming aware of.

And they think, oh, the other person hit me.

Yeah, you're not segregated.

So one of the segments that we like to end on with every episode is called shoutouts.

Because, you know, I, I think we tend to stand on the shoulders of giants, certainly when we conceptualize big topics like awareness and humanity and creativity.

So are there any thinkers, are there any people, dead or alive, who you think our audience should know about that might help them on the path towards creativity and humanity and awareness?

Of course, in addition to yourself, who.

Your own website, michaellm.com is a phenomenal resource around your work and your ideas.

But who would you shout out?

Who do you think the world in particular, our audience needs to pay closer attention to.

So first of all, I need to tell your audience your teacher is ready when you are.

So I had so many.

I started With Tony Robbins, with all these people, you know, and currently I'm working.

I'm listening.

I'm not working.

It's.

It's.

Nobody has the answer for you because you're 101, but people have good thoughts and helpful tools to teach you.

So, for example, I had extreme sleep apnea and asthma.

And Buteyko, Patrick, what's his name?

God.

Patrick McEwen, for example, he taught me breathing, and that changed my life.

I mean, I do 40 minutes breathing before I wake up.

Everything.

And don't think or meditate or anything.

I just do the breathing.

And that helped me physically, mentally, everything.

And I.

I didn't know that before I was 55 or something.

So then Eckatole, the.

The thing of now, you know, the power of now, those are still stuff that stay with me, you know, I'm not listening to him all the time.

Or stay.

And so then you go to Bashar, you go to other people and listen.

But I'm not taking it.

I made the mistake.

I listened to one teacher for very long, and then I saw how limited one voice is, which I see with humans, too.

I try to connect with as many humans as possible because I see as many life perspectives.

Also, I have an ability to plug in our mastermind.

So that's why no podcast is ever the same.

And it's always, even though I say it in the same thing that I say, you know, creativity, it's about the creativity.

It's not about the product.

The product is the icing on the cake.

If you create a painting that everybody wants, that's great.

But it doesn't mean that you're a good artist or that this is automatically the stamp that you're a good artist, that you are actually a real artist.

It's the journey that matters.

Always the journey.

Always the journey.

Right on.

Well, thank you very much, Michael.

I think if I were to take a core lesson from you, sharing your wisdom today, it's the power of diversity and the extent to which there is an infinite level of diversity within our humanity and within the nature that surrounds us.

And one's creativity is a medium to tap into that, to express it.

So thank you very much, Michael.

This has been metaviews.

You can find us online, in social, and in the real world, which, quite frankly, is where ideas and knowledge are best shared.

So thanks again.

We'll see you soon.