Denise Lee Yohn, she is a speaker, her book is called What

Great Brands Do, The Seven Brand Building Principles That

Separate the Best From the Rest. She's been the lead strategist

for advertising agencies for Burger King and Land Rover, Jack

in the Box. She went on to head Sony Electronics, their first

ever brand office, Frito Lay and Oakley, and Denise, thanks for

being here.

Denise Lee Yohn: Thanks for that great introduction.

So just kind of, first of all, you know, obviously you've

got, you have the background and the pedigree of, you know,

working with the big brands and everything. What caused you to

write the book? How did you, why did you even say, Yeah, I want

to, I want to go ahead and turn this into a book?

Denise Lee Yohn: Yeah, well, I, you know, I should start by

saying that I love brands. I'm passionate about them. I've been

studying them for years. I've been working on them. You know,

as a consumer, I'm fascinated by them, and as a professional, I'm

even more fascinated and so, you know, certainly I, you know,

this is a topic that I want to share my thoughts on. But more

specifically, I feel like there's a lot of

misunderstanding about how great brands and big brands get to be

so successful. And so I wanted to share what I had learned from

my research and work about what great brands do.

You talk about this concept, it's called brand as

business.

Denise Lee Yohn: Yeah. Well, maybe it would be helpful to

contrast that to brand as logo or brand as name or brand as

tagline, marketing, advertising, PR, website, whatever you know.

I think that a lot of people, when they think about brand,

they think about those elements which are really, I would call

them expressions, or ways to communicate your brand, but your

brand is your business if you are, if you are using your brand

correctly. And so brand as businesses, is simply a phrase

to kind of say, you know, there should be no separation. There

should be no difference between how you're managing developing

and growing your brand as how you're managing developing and

growing your business. And a lot of it has to do with your

culture, you know, inside your organization, has to do with the

actual customer experience that you're providing, and, you know,

your company operations and strategies, what you actually

do. So it's really a very, I think, more comprehensive thing

than people want to think of just a brand as, I mean, you

know, think about like Apple, you know, Apple has, what,

millions of fans around the world. I don't think any of them

love Apple because they've got a great logo, or even that, you

know, that they have great advertising, and they have some

really cool creative advertising that I think, really, you know,

rallies people and gets people hooked. But it's really the

Apple products and the Apple stores and the apple community,

and the Apple apps, all you know, all of that is what makes

Apple Apple, and that's what the Apple brand is.

What do you think is different kind of if you you

look at this approach that you call brand as business?

Denise Lee Yohn: I think that, you know, it probably starts

with the first principle in my book, what great brands do. The

first principle is great brands start inside, meaning that they

start brand building by cultivating a strong brand led

culture inside their companies. And that also means that that

means that they are saving, communicating, expressing their

brand through things like a logo or a marketing campaign for

after they've actually created this strong culture inside. So

it's really about being more more focused on on how you're

running your business, why you're running business, what

are the values and attributes that you want to be known for

and that you are really cultivating among everyone who

works on your brand? And that's where you start. And then once

you've got that to a point where you feel like, okay, we're

really creating value here, then you go out and you start working

on your external image.

So do you think that's one of the big mistakes that people

make, is they do those in reverse order?

Denise Lee Yohn: Absolutely. I mean, you know, how many times

do we read about, like, when a corporation is in trouble, and

the first thing they do is, oh, we're going to launch a brand

campaign, or we're going to change our name or refresh our

logo, and, you know, and I'm not saying that those things aren't

important, but I think that, you know, customers are pretty savvy

these days, and, you know, a new logo or a new tagline, those

things are kind of like, you Know, dime a dozen, and people

really want to know, okay, what, what are you doing that's

different, you know, what, what value are you creating for me?

Why should I pay attention to you? And the, you know, the

external image is only a part of that.

How does personal branding fit into this?

Denise Lee Yohn: You know, I think within a corporation, you

know, you are in charge of your career, right? And I spent 15

plus years in the corporate world, so I know you know how

hard it is to, you know, shape your career and pursue your

individual career goals at the same time supporting and, you

know, pursuing your company's objectives. And. I think that

you know you need to be very cognizant of what you are known

for within an organization so that you can accomplish those

goals and and a lot of that has to do with, again, the value

that you create, the projects that you sign up to, to work on,

the way that you conduct yourself in meetings. And you

know a lot, I think, unfortunately, some personal

branding experts are much more focused, again, on your image.

You know, how do you what does your avatar look like on social

media? And you know, you know, and how do you dress? And again,

those things are important. But I wouldn't be advising both

within a corporation as well as a small business owner or an

individual consultant that it's really you need to focus on, you

know, what value you're creating and how are you doing business

that's distinctive, and, you know, memorable and compelling,

and you know, and as a salesperson, I think that you

are, when you go and you call on a customer, you're not only you,

you're representing two brands, your own brand and your company

brand. And I, and I would venture to guess that most

buyers are, you know, basing a, you know, buying decision on

both of those brands. You know, it's they want to know. Is this

person that I them sitting, you know, across the table from, you

know, do I like them? Do I respect them? Do I trust them?

But then, and then, in addition, you know, do I want to do

business with this company? And so it's really, I think, the

combination of the two that makes a very powerful sales

presentation.

I'd love to hear like an example of some companies where

you go here is somebody who had a very weak brand, and it was

not going well, and then they did this and this and this and

this, and it changed.

Denise Lee Yohn: Well, I'll talk about one of the my clients that

I worked with a while ago, and so I think I can speak fairly

freely about them. And they're a public company. It's a fast food

chain called Jack in the Box, and I would say that when we

started working with them, they had the image that they had

created from their television commercials. So Jack in the Box

has this CEO character, Jack, who's kind of like a kick butt,

you know, fun, funny, bold, convention breaking, kind of

CEO. And these advertisements, I think, really created this

personality that people liked, but there was a very big

disconnect between that image and what you would actually

experience in the store. You know, in fact, I think the

executives would agree when we started working with them, the

other stores were somewhat dirty, somewhat slow. Service

was inconsistent. You know, probably inconsistency was

probably their biggest problem, and they had definitely had

bright spots, but they also had a lot of problems. And so the

work that we did, you know, we certainly helped them refine

their position and really kind of focus more on their

positioning. But more importantly, what we did was

worked with every person who worked on that brand, from you

know, the executive team to the corporate departments to the

franchisees. You know, both the master franchisees that own

hundreds of units, as well as the smaller franchises, and then

the restaurant employees all to understand what is their role in

interpreting and reinforcing the Jack in the Box brand. And you

know, there was certain there was a certain positioning, a

certain personality, values and attributes that that they wanted

their brand to be known for. And through that work, I think that

the stores, the store experience, has become much more

in line with what this image was. Now they still have a long

way to go, and I'm sure that, you know, you would you, if you

went into Jack in the Box, maybe nine out of 10 times, or maybe

eight out of 10 times, you'd get this great experience that that

reflects their brand, but you would still have some

inconsistency. But I think the most important thing was that

that, you know, they brought in a lot more personality into what

they were doing in the stores. A lot of their stores decided to

stay open 24 hours, and they built a whole late night program

and a special menu and kind of special promotions to promote

this kind of late night time, which really appealed to their

millennial target customers, and kind of would be the kind of

thing that this jack character from the advertiser would

actually do in the store, and so I think, and now, if you look at

their stock price, as if that's any indication of the success of

this change that they've made, I don't want to misquote, but I

want to say that their stock is on fire, and I don't want to

take credit for that completely, but I think that's part what our

work was, in part what has been contributing to their success.

Now you use the phrase integrated approach. What does

that mean to have an integrated approach?

Denise Lee Yohn: Oh, well, at the most fundamental level, I

think it means that you do what you say that you are doing, you

know? So I always say that a brand can't just be a promise.

It needs to be a promise delivered so you're integrating

your promise with your actual execution. But I think

integration is also about every aspect of what you're doing,

every aspect of the customer experience, needs to be

integrated so that it creates this branded experience, this

really compelling, different. COVID experience for the

customer. And so it's you know, about making sure that your

products are the types of products that you have are, you

know, expressing the value that you want to be known for. The

types of services you offer are integrated with those products.

The pricing that you use reflects the value that you want

to be known for. You know, the promotions and the marketing you

do build up an expectation that then is delivered from those

products and services. So it's all part of a cohesive whole.

Let's say somebody that's out there listening and their

small business owner, what's the first thing they should do?

Denise Lee Yohn: It's probably safe to say that in most every

area, every sector, every industry, the competition is has

already increased or is increasing, and your need to

stand out and be known is becoming, you know, even more

critically important, and you can't just expect your customers

to figure that out. You know, if we just run a good business,

people will, you know, will come to us. I mean, that's not the

way that it works today. You need to stand out and give

customers a reason to choose you. So that's why it's

important. And then I would say, you know, part of the reason why

you might have all these different, you know, logos or

expressions, or, you know, different brochures, or, you

know, whatever, maybe because you yourself as as a business

owner or partner team, are not focused and clear yourself on,

what does your brand stand for? You know, what is that core

essence or core purpose or core mission that really holds

everything together? And so you, I think you need to spend some

time, and it's not something that is, you know, takes a long

process, and it's not something that you even really need to

spend any money on, but you need to do some very, you know,

serious like introspection and strategic planning on what is it

that we want our brand to known, be known for, and very clearly

articulate that don't assume that people just get it or

people know it, but, you know, write it down and make sure that

it's clear on what you stand for and how you're different and

better from your competition. And then from there, I think, is

a matter of then ensuring that everyone who works on your brand

shares that understanding and then brings that to life in

their area of responsibility. And if you don't create a

reputation for yourself, one will be created, right?

Where do you want people to go, Denise, to connect with

you?

Denise Lee Yohn: Yeah, so, um, definitely you go to my website,

DeniseLeeYohn.com, and that's d, e, n, i, s, E, L, E, E, y, O, H

n.com, and from there, you can actually access all the

information about my book. There are materials for my book that

you can download, links to where you can purchase it, and then

that also clicks or links you to my blog and newsletter.

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing this with us. Denise Lee

Yohn.