Welcome to, but for Real, a variety show podcast co-hosted by two therapists who

also happened to be loud mouth feminist.

I'm Valerie, your resident elder, millennial child free cat lady.

And I'm Emerson, your resident, chronically online Gen Z brat.

And on the show we'll serve up a new episode every other week that will take

you on a wild ride through the cultural zeitgeist, mental health and beyond.

You'll definitely laugh and TBH sometimes maybe cry a little because

this is a silly and serious show.

Buckle up my friends, and let's get into today's episode.

Well, hello listeners.

I'm so excited to be here.

Me too.

In the virtual space together today.

You know, I think historically our virtual episodes have been maybe some of our

most wildest ones because we're just, you know, we have a degree of separation, so

we're like even more weird, which yes, I, you know, it's, it's interesting.

I'm

okay kicking us off today.

Yes.

I would love to know what is your sort of musical listening style?

Do you listen to the full album?

Is it chaos Playlist through the genres?

Is it a curated cue?

Like what?

What is your style and why?

Hmm, great question.

I always love asking people this question 'cause I'm curious.

I am definitely a. Chaos listener, like, I'm pulling up, you

know, I'm thinking of a song.

Great.

And then I wanna listen to.

This Olivia Dean song six times, and then I'm gonna go click on

something else and then I'm gonna fart around in the Christmas genre.

So like it is just pure maniacal chaos in the way that I listen to music.

I prefer it that way.

I often shock myself from like crying over like a Lizzie McCall pine song, and then

all of a sudden I'm listening to 50 cent.

Like, sorry, sorry.

God forbid a woman has rained.

That's all I can say.

I love it.

So, um, I feel like my mom definitely influenced the style of music for me.

Mm-hmm.

Um, music from both of my parents, I kind of got the like, classic dad,

rock, Beatles, like nirvana, um, like all of that aside from my dad.

And then me and my mom would hop in the car and she'd be like.

Should we listen to Shadow Crow Babes?

And so then we're just like listening to, to Shania and Cheryl

and like, you know, just the girls.

So I feel like I've always loved the music Whiplash.

But what about you?

What's your, mm-hmm.

What's your style?

Where did that come from?

Well, there's definitely the generational piece of like having grown up, listened

to listening to physical albums, right?

On cd.

Yeah.

And, and that was just what we did now.

Yeah.

There was the little, um, shuffle button on, you know, the stereo or

the Walkman so we could shuffle.

And then of course it was probably aligned pretty closely with when

I went to college, when the, yeah.

iPod and MP three players and stuff were a thing.

And I just remember how like revolutionary that was like.

Me walking through campus with my headphones in just like, oh

my God, my life has a soundtrack.

Who am I?

Um, oh my God.

Amazing.

Yeah, so of course at that point it, you know, became a little more

fluid and I think there are still some of my just all time favorite

albums that I will love listening to.

Kind of in their entirety.

But now my, my bigger issue, as we both know, is that I just

don't listen to music hardly ever.

And so, uh, I'm really glad we're doing this episode because yes, we a swift kick

in the Rs to be listening to some tunes.

So we're gonna be reminding ourselves, and by ourselves I mean me.

Why that's so important.

Yes.

Yay.

Love it.

Now it's time for our first segment, tea and Crumpets, where we tell you

what we can't stop talking about.

This week I am halfway through Virginia Giuffre memoir Nobody's Girl.

And so if you are unfamiliar with Virginia Giuffre, she is kind of a.

Like whistleblower, one of the most like prominent survivors of Jeffrey

Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell.

And so just how poignant for this memoir to be out right now

as we're dealing, release the fucking files and the real one.

And fuck you, Jeffrey Epstein, and fuck you Ghislaine Maxwell, and fuck

you Donald Trump while I'm at it.

Fuck all y'all.

So, um, just such a her, you know, I am, I am heartbroken to know that she.

Has just suffered for so long and reading this now, uh, knowing that,

you know, she has passed away.

You know, she has died by suicide this year, which is just so shocking to me.

Um, I followed this story for a really long time.

Um.

Just because how could you not, you know, with how prevalent this man was

and everything that has gone on here with the Prince Andrew of it all.

So, I mean, she really is, I, I feel like I'm getting such, like a

more rounded picture of who she was.

Um, and everything that has influenced her life.

And so, like I said, I'm only halfway through, but I think

this will be my favorite, um, memoir that I've read this year.

And so just really, really recommend this book.

But like, this is not a book that I am, um, binging.

I am notoriously like a one point Fiverr on an audio book.

And this is one that like, I tease her between one and 1.2 and I'm

just like trying to take in how and when I'm listening to it.

I mean, it's just really, really.

Deep shit and it's, uh, scary.

You know, some parts to hear it.

Yeah.

But I think her story is so, so important and the women that have been impacted

by this, their stories are so important.

So if you are looking to learn more about that from the perspective

of someone that actually really matters, please listen to her story.

Um, yeah.

And just highly recommend, but with trigger warnings.

Of course.

Right,

right.

Yeah.

We were doing our selection for our next year of books and uh, my book

club recently, and that one was floated and I think it was just like,

ah, I dunno that we're all up for it.

Some of us will probably read it.

Yeah.

But yeah, I mean, just the intensity of that, but so important Right.

To be hearing those stories.

Indeed.

Yeah, I know it.

What's yours for this week?

Maybe not as heavy as mine.

Well, uh, if you have been in any of our supervision or team meetings for

the last year and a half, you have heard that I will not shut up about

Bill Doherty, uh, hashtag fan girl.

Um, and so he's a. Um, marriage, family therapist and uh, up in

Minneapolis area and just like.

Legend in the field and I did not discover his work until

maybe the last year and a half.

Um, been going through all kinds of trainings.

Um, got to work with him a little bit in person.

Um, he also founded Braver Angels co-founded and um, so

I'm doing moderator training and got to see him in that context.

Online last week.

Um, but finally I'm reading He, he doesn't have that many published books.

I mean, he's, he's been busy doing the fucking work, not time to like write all

these, you know, books for lay people.

But he's written a couple and this one is called Take Back Your Marriage.

Mm. And what I'm so obsessed with about it, and I feel like I'm like

still, I'm probably still working on being able to articulate this well,

but he talks about the problems with what he calls consumer marriage.

Um, basically this like hyper individualistic, like I wanna,

you know, I need all, have all my needs met and like confusing wants

with needs and just this like.

You know, very, I mean, some of the problems with look, looking

at marriage to fulfill all of the things that we sort of culturally

look for it to fulfill these days.

Um, and just this culture of dissatisfaction.

Like we're dissatisfied with the marital services that our spouse is providing.

Like, and he's very careful to like, you know, be, be, um, intentional about, this

is not about like just glossing over.

Abuse or like deep neglect of a marriage by one partner.

Like that's, there are some situations where like it's just untenable.

Yeah.

But unfortunately, a lot of the divorces that he has seen, especially in like, you

know, the last 10, 20 years is a result of a marriage becoming untenable because.

They were in a consumer marriage.

So I, and I, I deeply resonate with that because I sort of was, you know, falling

prey to all of those messages, you know, five, 10 years ago, and then coming

outta that cloud and just being like, fuck, I'm mad about this, these messages.

So anyway, highly recommend.

Um, it's written for anyone, even if you're not married, if you're just

considering being married or you're.

You, you are interested in long-term committed partnership

and the benefits of that?

Uh, I think it's an excellent book.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

Now it's time for step into my office where you get advice from your

favorite professionally qualified, personally peculiar therapist.

So this listener writes in and says, hi Emin Val.

I've been in therapy for a few years now and feel like I would

benefit from a different approach.

I'm not musically talented at all and do not play any musical

instruments, but my therapist brought up music therapy after I shared how

much I enjoy listening to music.

A lot of songs hit me really hard.

They bring memories back, help me cry and process my emotions, and I really

enjoy interpreting lyrics and talking about music with friends and family.

I'm curious about music therapy, but I worry about not being musical enough as

a person and think that music therapy maybe is just for creative types or

kids or people in retirement homes.

What do you think sincerely?

Crying at the beat drop.

Ooh.

Crying at the beat drop.

Yeah.

What do you mean?

I mean, I'm, I, I'm immediately like, do it, you know, like, just do it.

Well, and then of course I can expand on that.

I think to the last part of like, is this just for creatives?

Is this just for kids?

Is it for old folks?

Kind of heard, right.

I feel like much like hypnosis, I do like a lot of myth busting and I feel

like music therapy or like the healing benefits of music is also something to

bust a bit where it's maybe only for like certain types of people bullshit, right?

Like I can think, I think it's totally applicable for anyone.

And of course like we have these populations where it undoubtedly.

We have research, like evidence-based research that music therapy works

with kids and with creative types and with folks in retirement homes.

But I think it's so, you know, it's a process that really anybody could engage

with if you're, if you're interested.

Right.

And listener, it sounds like you're definitely interested.

I'm hearing like the memory processing and helping me tap into my emotions.

I think probably one of the most important parts about music therapy.

Maybe if you, you know, are an adult from me at least, is that

like lyrical interpretation?

Mm-hmm.

What am I hearing from this story?

How am I resonating with that?

Whether that's something I've experienced that's being brought

to light by someone else, and what is it like to universally share?

This experience and this song with other people and what it meant for

me, or this song means something for me and it means something

completely different to somebody else.

And how did we get there?

Right?

Like I think music is such a. Is such a catalyst for interesting conversations

and is certainly something that you can explore therapeutically.

You know, I've been in therapy for a few years.

I feel like I would benefit from, from a different approach.

Boom.

Like,

yeah,

listen to that and like go chase this experience and we'll

totally get into like how.

We find music therapy, right?

Or how we start incorporating music into a, into our lives in a more, you

know, intentional and therapeutic way.

Um.

But I totally say do it and, and see, you know, what would be there.

And I hear the part of, you know, being musical enough.

Not all music therapy is you having to sit with the music

therapist and like make music.

That's one piece of that.

And that piece like might not be for you.

And that's okay, but it doesn't mean that the whole experience isn't for you.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

And I'm thinking about, and I know we'll delve more into

this piece of it, but like.

In terms of the accessibility of it and how, like, to me, it, it's

like to, to intentionally weave that into your therapy process.

Can look like a million different things.

So it's like, yeah, you could go out and seek out a music

therapist or this listener.

It sounds like their therapist was just sort of saying like, Hey,

would you be interested in this?

Would you be interested in integrating this?

And if that's the case, like maybe they can do that with

their existing therapist, right?

There might be some limitations on what they could do, but I feel like

part of those myths about music therapy come from the place of like these more

institutional type settings like hospital.

Programs, you know, these assisted living programs where like they have

perhaps the, you know, desire to bring in a dedicated music therapist to be

working specifically with that modality.

And that's just not the case for most people just out in the world

in, you know, outpatient therapy.

So, yeah.

Yeah, you could, you know, seek that out as a specific modality or if you're.

Therapist is down to clown and and down to dig in with you.

Like you could probably get a lot out of that too.

Totally.

Totally.

Yeah.

And resources and like more on that to come, right?

Mm-hmm.

Of finding where do we find it, how do we incorporate, but listener, I mean, ask

your therapist for some referrals or plug into Psychology today and see like who's

maybe offering something in their bios.

Maybe they're not a board certified music therapist, but again, they

incorporate some of that stuff.

Yeah.

And there's still value in there too, so.

Good luck.

Find, find your voice.

Yeah.

For music therapy.

Why not?

And now it's time for the DSM.

In our DSM, all varieties of dysfunction, spiraling, and meltdowns are welcome.

In this segment, we break down complicated concepts and common misconceptions

about mental health, wellbeing, and tell you what we really think.

Our topic, of course, today is all about music, music therapy as a modality.

You know, our kind of experiences that we're gonna be weave.

In with, um, music in a clinical and personal setting and

why this is also important.

So let's kind of, you know, always set off with some clarity and some

definition of what even is music therapy.

So the official definition from the American Music Therapy Association is

the clinical and ev, evidence-based use of music interventions.

To accomplish individualized goals, of course, within a therapeutic relationship.

So some of the differences that we can think of, again, in this realm of music

therapy is legit quote, music therapy.

So this is typically somebody that is a therapist.

They are credentialed, they are a credentialed music therapist,

board certified, so board certified music therapist.

So.

That is their own.

Much like all of us therapists, we all have our own wee little

associations that we fall into.

So this is one of the, our letters, wee little umbrella benches.

Yes.

All of our letters.

We love a letter.

Um, so you're having clinical goals.

Again, like Val said, maybe this is more in like hospital settings.

They're gonna have someone that's a board certified music therapist.

Um.

And then of course there are therapeutic uses of music, which is probably

where Val and I hang out the most.

You know?

And neither of us are board certified music therapists, but I'm prescribing

a playlist or I'm prescribing a car cry, or I'm like, you wanna revenge

plot against someone, plotted out through music and I don't hurt anybody.

So we're making playlists, or we're vibing, or we're analyzing lyrics and

talking about what that means for us.

And then the other kind of layer to that are sound baths.

So using singing bowls or utilizing different instruments for sound healing.

I've been to a couple of sound baths where they're using different like.

Chimes and different musical instruments and it sounds like rain.

And I'm sitting there and I'm like, this is fucking awesome.

I'm like, stemming.

And, you know, you can, you can feel certain, uh, you know, elements of

those instruments, which is really cool.

And so different kind of adjacent experiences with this.

A lot of like really bounded rooted indigenous culture around.

Sound baths sound healing.

Shout out, you know, to the OGs and where that came from and how we use that

now in, in and across Western medicine.

Mm-hmm.

So different.

Um, I also just wanted to throw down like the umbrella list of

like interventions in quotations.

So, um, again, there's that kind of.

You know, we're looking at a lot of like lyric analysis, doing some, like what

is it like to do guided imagery with music and to like let a soundtrack kind

of be there to enrich an experience.

Songwriting can be a really, again, for the creative and even if you

feel like you're not a creative.

Being able to lean into songwriting, narrative therapy, you know,

what is the story of my life?

Doing some like improv improvisation can be really important.

Um, and then of course there's more of the other ends.

Again, what we could kind of see in like larger institutions,

so like music supported motor training for like different neuro

neurodevelopmental disorders.

Um, and then receptive music listening.

So like looking at.

You know, just like what the music is like who, and again, across

different populations, what is it like to do that with kids call teaching

call response, or you know, again, playing with different instruments.

So what is that like?

So, um, this is just really the quick and skinny on probably what actually

covers the breadth of music therapy.

Um, but yeah, I just wanted to like throw some ideas down and then give us

like our clear definition so we know.

Where to start.

So there's that part.

Lovely.

So let's talk about how working with music in a therapeutic way can

actually impact the brain and the body.

Obviously we know that while music can be real fun and entertainment,

it's not only entertainment, right?

It's sort of this like multi-sensory workout for your whole nervous system.

So whether you're listening to music or making music in some way.

Your brain is lighting up in all these regions that are involved in

emotion, relationships, sensation, memory, language, motor control.

So we have rhythm of course, um, which can be connected with

our sense of, uh, stabilization for our nervous system arousal.

So if we're, if we are say hyper aroused, we're kind of, our

nervous system is jacked up.

Connecting with rhythm can be a way that we stabilize that.

Um, sinking our breath and heartbeat.

So that can be called entrainment.

So Cool.

Um, then we have melody, which can activate our dopamine reward pathways

can support our motivation and mood.

That feeling, when you just hear that melody that just like sticks, like an

earworm and it's just like intoxicating.

And then of course, like you're saying, the lyrics that can help stimulate.

Our language centers giving us labels for our feelings when the words feel stuck.

I mean, how many times have we listened to a song and like found a particular

line that we're just like, yes, this is what I've been trying to say

and I didn't have the words for it.

Um, so both emotionally.

Psychologically, physiologically, there's a lot happening.

Music is really this bridge between our inner experience, our outward expression,

um, especially when maybe just talking about shit can feel overwhelming or.

We feel like we don't have the words for it.

So obviously there's applications for this and trauma work.

Um, music can give us a little bit of that safe distance and help

us titrate into an experience.

So maybe we're not ready to tell the details of our particular traumatic

experience or, or doing so would be sort of retraumatizing, but maybe

there's a song that really helps us connect with that experience.

And feel some of those feelings without having to talk about

it in a retraumatizing way.

Um, mood disorders.

So again, we can engage that reward circuit of dopamine.

Um, it supports the behavioral activation.

I mean, how many times it would've been like, I'm just like rotting

on the couch and I know that I need to get up and do something.

And I know I would feel better if I did, but until I turn on that playlist, like

I just feel that inertia is overpowering.

So.

Sometimes music can be the thing that's just like, whoop, here I am.

Um, and then of course, with mood can also deepen our emotional processing.

Um, with anxiety, the predictable rhythmic patterns can help signal

safety to the autonomic nervous system.

How freaking cool.

So that can really help us ground.

Um, and then of course, like we're not even getting into all the kind

of nerdy sound healing stuff like the binaural beats and the particular

frequencies and all of that that can potentially impact your nervous system.

And with that kind of stuff, like I always say like follow your own data, right?

I think people can get really fixated on like, I need this at exactly 432

hertz, because that's the frequency of universal healing or whatever.

It's like if 4 32 Hertz is what works for you, great.

There's a lot of it on the internet that you can find.

But also if sure if you connect with other things that help you feel that

sense of oneness that are not 432 hertz, like it's no better or worse.

Right.

Yeah.

Um, with depression, music can increase our engagement, our sense of

connection, our sense of belonging.

Um, again, we're supporting some of those pleasure pathways and also

we're connecting to meaning making.

So it's just like kind of all of the things, all of the

concepts that support wellbeing.

You can find them within music.

Yeah, isn't that so fucking cool?

Like love, I just like kind of wanna geek out about this forever.

So I wanted to throw down some additions, um, you know, um, neurodivergent and

so I was like, what's the tee here with neurodiversity and communication support.

And so for folks with autism or otherwise, you know, chilling under

the neurodivergent umbrella, music is.

Um, awesome.

It can offer structure and expression without relying solely on those

verbal pathways, which a lot of folks really struggle with trying to

nail down that emotion, or, again, trying to name my experience and I'm

having a really hard time on that.

And so it can focus on the facilitation of alternate communication channels.

So we're thinking about intonation and gestures.

And rhythm.

And so it can provide also predictable sensory input that supports

regulation, which is fantastic.

I think the first thing that I recommend for, you know, folks

when they're overwhelmed, I'm like, what is it like to go find.

That song or that playlist or whatever it is, there are certain songs that I

know that I put on and I put them on, on a loop because I'm, I'm sensory seeking.

I'm trying to understand my regulation and use that song

to slow me down and I like it.

And it's that predictability, which feels good.

And then of course.

Just encourages more of that like reciprocal interaction

through musical turn taking.

So there's just so many elements, you know, with neurodiversity, again,

barely scratching the surface, but.

So important there.

And then of course an extension on more medical and neurological applications.

So there is tons and tons of research out there for stroke recovery.

So having rhythmic auditory stimulation can significantly improve

gait and find motor functioning, which I thought was really cool.

Speech rehab, there are, there's research for melody based interventions, which

stimulate the B Brocas area and supports.

Speech production for dementia.

Music triggers autobiographical memory and supports orientation and

emotional continuity, which just chokes me up all over the place.

Yes, 'cause dementia is so challenging for folks and their families.

And then chronic pain, helping redirect attention.

It can help improve mood, increases perceived agency over pain, which is.

So important when you're dealing with chronic pain.

I think of that from a hypnosis standpoint.

Mm-hmm.

Where you take that on and why that's so important to help

alleviate, um, some of that too.

So again, just scratching the surface there, but there's such a

robust opportunity for music to be.

To be here across all of that, and you know, any additions

there for you, Valerie?

Yeah, I was just thinking about the Safe and Sound Protocol, which was

created by Steven Porges, who sort of originated the polyvagal theory.

Um, and you know, I always like to give the caveat that like, no, no theory is

the one be all, end all truth, right?

Sure.

Um, so I know there's some like, you know, controversy in the field about

like how, um, completely factual this one theory is, but, um, there's a, a lot of

people have benefited from integrating polyvagal theory into their treatment.

And so this particular piece of it, the safe and sound protocol.

Is an evidence-based listening therapy that uses this specially filtered

music to calm the nervous system.

It can improve emotional regulation.

Get us into that like sweet spot social engagement system communication, so

it can help with trauma, anxiety, sensory processing differences.

Um, it's something that we, we haven't had, I, we had one clinician who practiced

it, um, be before she came to us, so she did offer it while she was here.

We don't have anyone now, but if somebody, if we had clients who were interested

in it, you know, we for sure that's something that we could offer here too.

It's, you know, you have to go through a specific little online training to

be able to offer it as a therapist, but then your clients can access it.

Um, it's just very cool.

I remember when I heard him talk, I think it was maybe.

2023 Andrea Conference.

He did a keynote and talked about this and uh, you know, shared some

really interesting examples of like, you know, particular, um, teen who

was just like really had, had gone from like normal teen to like, had

this, um, TBI and was having mm-hmm.

Just all kinds of like really intense acting out.

Nothing was helping, none of the therapies were helping.

And then they tried this, this sort of a, a last resort.

And it worked.

So, wow.

Like, you know, again, nothing is a magic bullet for everyone, but

especially if you're feeling stuck and you're trauma healing, um, oh yeah.

If you know you're dealing with like a, a really challenging neurological

issue, check out safe and sound protocol.

The nervous system is so important, y'all, I can't stress it enough.

Like check.

Just check in with that nervous system of yours, see what's going on.

Yep.

Okay.

So little bit more

of the history here.

So you we're having a history.

Yeah.

Step into my history lesson.

Um, you mentioned, you know, that the roots of this, a shocker, did

not start with white psychologists.

Shocker in the, didn't start with

white men.

So, you know, indigenous healing rituals have incorporated chanting

and drumming and sounding across a variety of cultural lineages.

One of the coolest trainings I did during COV was, um, this, it was Kelly Kirksey.

Jamie Merri.

Jamie Merri is like a big, uh, EMDR person.

Um, but she really tries to approach it from a decolonized lens.

And so she worked with, um, Dr. Kelly Kirksey, who's a black woman, to

bring in this like African centered approach to bilateral stimulation.

Because again, like there has been drumming for centuries, right?

And like centuries we're over here like, Hey, it turns out bilateral

stimulation can be helpful.

And they're like, no shit.

So they're like, no shit, honey.

Yes, yes.

And then 18th and 19th centuries, uh, physicians were like, Hmm.

We are noticing that when these people hear music, they be feeling better.

Again.

Imagine that that tracks, um.

In post World War I and World War II Music, uh, was played for veterans.

Gosh, I'm trying to remember now.

There, there's a whole, um, a whole organization that is, is like based

in bands that would travel and visit, um, like in Vietnam, they would visit

people who were like actively in wartime.

They would go and play shows for them.

That was like a whole project.

Um, I don't, I imagine it still exists in some way.

But anyway, some music is played for veterans.

Um, they experienced significant improvement in their distressing

symptoms, and so some early programs were created that then became

legitimized into professional fields.

Um, in 1950, the National Association for Music Therapy was founded.

1998. A MTA was established through a merger.

And then in the modern training, as you were mentioning that.

MTBC Music Therapist, board certified credential, um, which requires either a

bachelor's or master's in music therapy and a clinical internship, which is

often done in some of those settings.

We were talking about hospitals or assisted living facilities,

um, programs like that.

What's interesting too is that, um, it's one of those fields kind of like

art therapy where, and, and dance movement where these expressive arts

therapies like went off and created their own sort of training programs

and their own credentials and licensing bodies, and they overlap with.

Mental health licensing bodies in that.

Mm-hmm.

Somebody might, you know, like our former music therapist, Courtney, she

was a music therapist board certified before pursuing her then, you know,

clinical license and training.

Um, so, so some people do pursue both, but some people are just

straight up music therapists.

Like they cannot offer psychotherapy outside of that context, but they

can offer music in a therapeutic way.

Same with those other kinds of fields as well.

Um, but again, it's some people will pursue both.

And as a therapist who is very suspicious of gatekeeping, but also mm-hmm.

I, you know, acknowledge the value of honoring true deep expertise and quality

control gatekeeping in that sense.

You know, I have mixed feelings about all these sort of like adjacent,

you know, licensure processes.

'cause like we, we have a couple of therapists, um, on our team right now.

Uh, shout out Grayson and Clara, who are both like very into

music, they play, they, you know, are deeply impacted by that.

They have brought it into their clinical work in powerful ways and

they're not, they haven't gotten any specialized training in that.

And I think like exploring those options of.

Well, here's what it would look like if you wanna, you know, get a board sort.

It's like an entire other master's degree practically, which again, yeah,

they're getting deep expertise and the people who've completed that level of

training have a bigger toolbox of sort of directives or interventions that they

can bring in that maybe someone with just a mental health background does not.

But you know, especially when you pair your mental health background with your

own experience of music, whether that's as a musician or just an aficionado, um, then

I think there's a lot that you can do.

So I just yeah.

Have interesting, uh, mixed feelings about sort of, I, I don't think

that therapists, um, mental health clinicians are outside of their scope

of practice to, to bring in all kinds of mu therapeutic music interventions.

They just can't call themselves a music therapist per se.

It kind of reminds me like I feel in similar ways about,

um, art therapy, right?

Yes.

And like a lot of clients will ask me about that and I'm like, listen babe.

I, no artist.

I'll tell you what, I can't.

I can't draw for nothing.

And then I think of Kaitlyn King, our wonderful resident art therapist, and

her putting a, you know, directive in front of me and I was like, I don't know.

And she was like, just roll with it.

You don't have to be an artist.

You don't have to do this.

And so, you know, doing that.

With her and hearing her experiences, I'm now more inclined to bring in some

kind of art directive, but I'm knowing that I'm not providing art therapy.

Right.

It's more of just like.

Yeah.

Can I, I can bring in this intervention because I know within

the scope of that intervention, I know that I'm not like, uh, no.

I'm calling myself an art therapist.

Right?

Like nail honey.

That's a whole training.

And again, another can of worms that's like really dedicated and

you'll have a robust toolbox.

Mm-hmm.

But I do, I agree.

I think there is like some, like middle room for us to hang out in.

There's middle ground there.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So how do we start exploring music therapy if we're interested?

Again, you do not have to be, musical music therapy is legit, not

your high school talent show where you're in there and you have to

audition and do all this crazy shit.

Like it's just not that way.

So if you would like to start.

With someone.

Um, if it feels, again, like that piece is super important

for you to find a board certified music therapist, totally do that.

Poke around online.

American Music Therapy Association has a directory, so you can

go straight to that website.

Um, we'll link that in the show notes, but.

Um, starting with what already resonates, I think is probably the

very, very best place to start.

So do you have that playlist that tracks your emotional arc and what

is it like to kind of wave through that playlist and see what's there?

Are you.

Creating, I love doing this.

I'll have clients.

Um, if we're doing parts work, what are some songs or genres or albums

that connect to specific inner parts of yourself or phases of your

life is that's more challenging?

So I know when I'm listening to Needy by Ariana Grande, I am in college and I'm

19 and it's winter and I know exactly.

Where I'm, and so, you know, and I'm, and I'm scared for her.

I'm scared to be 19 and it be winter, like, damn.

So, um, and then also using rhythm for grounding.

So again, like, am, am I listening to.

A specific instrument or when I need grounding, I love looking up a frequency.

Sue me.

I'm just like the other girls.

I love sitting with a frequency and just feel it kind of like

winging around in my brain.

I'm like, yes.

Um, and then if, again, if you need more like structured

experiences, go get a journal.

Don't buy one.

There's one in your cupboard that you weren't using, so go get that one.

I know you come me, I'm sorry.

I know it.

Hey, it's self-directed.

Tim.

What goes around comes around, grab that and think of your favorite

song or the song that you can't get outta your head right now, or

a song that fucking devastates you.

And look the lyrics and like annotate.

That go line for line, do your own rap genius.

Like whatever, right?

Like what does it mean for you to be connected with something and

let that inherently be your own experience guided imagery with music.

So again, put on a soundtrack and kind of guide yourself through an experience.

What is that like drumming or body percussion.

You can make music with your body if you did not know.

And so seeing what that's like, or if the songwriting piece is interesting

for you, but you're like, what the fuck?

I don't know where to start.

There are templates, baby.

You know, go use ai.

Say thank you, and just be mindful of it, but.

Or you know, literally Google songwriting templates, you're gonna

find something or start with some old poetry that you wrote or anything like,

it doesn't, you don't have to build this whole thing out of it immediately.

This is nervous system support.

This is literally not a performance, and I think that's where people get

the most wrapped up with this part, because there's the word music in front

of the therapy where it has to be this.

Thing, I, I do music therapy every day because I'm someone that loves

music and I listen to a lot of it, and that's all that it has to be for me.

And like, that's fine.

And that can be that way for you too.

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, start thinking about how you can implement this stuff if you are.

In therapy.

If you're not in therapy, you know?

And what can be helpful about some of those interventions

that you can do with yourself.

But if you're already in therapy and you wanna try to check in with your therapist

and see maybe where they fall, ask if your therapist integrates music-based

interventions or what would it be like for me to do a lyrical analysis?

And then for me to bring that into my next session and for me and my

therapist to just talk about it.

And I think most therapists would easily entertain anything in the realm

where they know that you're connecting with yourself and self-reflecting

in between the your session times.

So it can never hurt to ask ever.

It can never hurt to ask, yes, why not?

Mm. But for real music therapy or the therapeutic use of music.

Can remind us that healing is not linear, not even necessarily language based, that

sometimes your body needs that rhythm in order to break through to the revelation.

Sometimes a song can say the thing that you can't with your own words.

And sometimes the most profound emotional breakthroughs are not spoken.

They might be hummed or strummed, or cried through or danced out.

Your healing does not have to be eloquent or artistic.

It just has to be yours.

Boom.

Boom.

Hell yeah.

And now our musical segment.

Now, that's what I call, okay.

Where Emerson and I each share a song with each other each week as representatives

of our respective generations.

We tell you a little bit about the song or artist and then.

We press pause, we share the song with each other, and then we come

back for our live reaction and we're capturing it all on a Spotify playlist

linked in the show notes for you.

So this week I just wanted to give the broad prompting of any

song that is therapeutic to you.

So Valerie, what's your therapeutic

song for the week?

Oh my God, I'm so excited to share this one with you because I'm guessing that you

probably haven't heard of Joanna Newsom.

I know the name, but why?

Well, she's this little woodland ferry, um, oh, from the, from the p and w

and you cannot find her on Spotify.

She never went on there.

She was like one of the few, like forever holdouts from Spotify.

So listeners, you're gonna have to find this one on YouTube.

I know she is on title.

I'm not sure about Apple Music.

Um, she, she is this like ethereal being who play, who sings.

She has this insanely unique voice.

She plays the harp, the harps, accord, some other crazy instruments.

Um, and then she went and married Andy Sandberg, which is like the most bizarre.

So that's what was cobbling.

Um, that's why I know her because of any, I was like,

wait,

what?

They're, I, and I love them because they like both have a deep

appreciation for each other's art.

Um, even if she doesn't seem like it, she, you know, is a goofball too.

And her voice has evolved some over the years.

I think she had like nodules or whatever.

But, um, I'll never forget 'cause I found her when she first came

out in the early two thousands.

And I mean the, the songs on her first album, milk Guide, mender, they will wake

You the fuck up 'cause her voice sounds, it is very, a very particular sound.

I'll never forget, I was like reading some Amazon review of that album

and it was some, one of the, um.

People reviewing it said her voice sounds like two rats fighting inside a balloon.

It has smoothed out a little bit in the ensuing years.

Um, uh, Wikipedia says that her musical style is often labeled as

progressive folk chamber folk indie pop.

Uh, folk or baroque pop, which I just love.

Oh.

Um, as a child, she was not allowed.

And mind you, she was born in 82, so she's only a few years older than me.

She was not allowed to watch TV or listen to the radio.

Um, her parents, she would describe as these like idealists, hoping they

could protect us from bad influences, like violent movies and things.

So this song that I chose off of her 2010 album have one on me,

which was either two or three.

I wanna say it was three discs.

It was just, she just breaks the mold.

Oh my God.

She's just like, Hey, you want a 17 minute song?

I'm gonna record one.

So she just breaks the fucking mold in every way.

But this particular song is just like, it will, it's a, it's a great

breakup song and it will like both carry your heart out and like.

Stitch it back up together.

Oh, I played this song for a client.

We listened to the entire like six minute song in session a few

years ago who was going through this really shattering breakup.

And I mean, oh my God, she just webbed and I was crying and it was just so powerful.

So I had to play this song here, um, and it's called Does Not Suff.

By Joanna Newsom.

Hmm.

Like, I'm imagining going through the worst breakup of your life.

Right.

And you're just listening there, like, listening to that.

Oh my God.

The devastation.

Yeah.

She has such an interesting voice.

There's el um, are you familiar with Duffy?

She had.

Yep.

So she's, well, so like we all like my family, we were

always like, what the heck?

So like, she went really big everywhere for Mercy.

Right?

Like that got really big for her.

There are certain other songs that she has, I feel like they share like

a similar kind of vocal profile.

Mm-hmm.

And I just love Duffy.

I wish she just, I wish she would've made music forever.

Yeah.

So I could hear that in there.

And I was like, that's.

Really cool.

All just devastating.

My heart is like,

ugh.

Oh my God.

But it's, it's like a good kind of like, I don't know, it's like one of

those like devastating, like good.

Yeah.

Like you feel seen, like you, yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh yeah.

Oh man.

Oh my God.

What is your track?

So I'm kind of switching it up a little bit.

We're kind of going devastating, but like.

Angry.

Okay, so this song is 29 by Demi Lovato.

You may have heard this.

I feel like it was pretty big.

So this is from her eighth studio album released in 2022.

I think this was her holy fuck album.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so.

29 went major viral on the internet.

TikTok, of course, kind of as a soundtrack for those sharing their

stories with abuse and grooming with like inappropriate age gaps.

So this song is speculated to be about Demi's ex, Demi's ex law, but

Wilmar Valderrama, who was 29 when he met Demi Lovato when she was 17.

Um, and so I believe they dated from 2010 to 2016.

And in the song we kind of.

I say we, we kind of think she's like, throws a hint at, um, I mean the

whole song is kind of just the hint at this inappropriate relationship

that she's now thinking back on.

Um, but kind of towards Wilmer Val's now wife, Amanda.

Hmm.

Pacheco, um, calling out their 12 year age gap.

So in the song she says, I see you're quite the collector.

You're 12 years her elder.

Ooh.

And so she just, she talks about the song was like deeply reflective for

her, highlighting her growth over the years and speaking from a place

of healed maturity, understanding, you know, for her younger self that

was kind of in this relationship.

So.

I love recommended the recommending this song to clients where like

this suits some of their story.

Yeah, it is a great, like, let's turn this all the way up

in the car and just hear it.

So I'm excited for you to hear it if you've not heard

it.

Woo.

I don't know that I have a similar theme to Hillary Destiny Song, mature too.

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Excited.

Damn.

Demi

has pipes.

And one thing no one can ever say to that bitch is that she

doesn't have pipes, honey.

Like, damn.

Yeah.

And that is, that is a, shall we say, poignant song.

Pointed

honey.

I know I came in with this, I came in with Virginia different.

I'm like, fuck abuser.

There's like, that's

actually the type of title.

I love it.

I love it.

Abuser, welcome to the segment.

Wait, what?

Where I fill Val in on all of the internet vernacular and lore so that

she doesn't end up being an irrelevant

elder

millennial.

So

is this gonna ruin the tour?

Okay.

So is this gonna ruin the.

Has recently come onto my radar, courtesy of my 19-year-old sister.

Shout out.

She's, she's the kids we be talking about.

Um, so Justin Timberlake, a while back got arrested Uhhuh for A DUI historically,

and the cop that arrested him was young.

And didn't recognize who he was, which is probably a celebrity's worst nightmare

when they're having trouble with the law.

And so under his breath, he's kind of like, you know, they're gonna arrest

him and he's gonna be in trouble.

And he's like, is this gonna ruin the tour?

You know, like, and the guy goes, what tour?

And he.

The World tour.

The World Tour.

World Tour because tour, I mean, he's Justin in timber.

Like, so is this gonna ruin?

The tour is the perfect brain rotted meme moment for like the mildest inconvenience.

So, you know, oh my gosh, I forgot my lunch at home.

It's just gonna ruin the tour.

So it.

Stupid, but it, my sister has my dad saying it.

It's so fucking tiny.

Like it's so stupid.

I love it for the mild inconveniences

too, because I feel like it gives us an opportunity to sort of like.

Laugh at ourselves and like understand that like whatever this thing is,

while it's annoying at the time, is like not a fucking big deal.

Like it's not gonna ruin Ruin the tour.

It's not gonna ruin the fucking tour.

Oh my God, I love it.

Okay.

I'm start using that.

So I knew you would like that one.

Yes.

And now for our last segment of the show, welcome to Fire Dumpster Phoenix.

It is rough out there, y'all.

And we need all the hope we can get.

It's time to go dumpster diving for some positive news and rides

from the leftover Happy Meal.

Ashes together.

Just so fucking cute.

And the English fisherman, David Lyons of his company.

Tackling Minds is working with the NHS to offer phishing as an option

for mental health treatment alongside of or in place of psychiatric

medications that mostly help with symptoms of, of depression and anxiety.

Medical workers have recommended 20.

300 individuals be prescribed phishing to help reduce mental health symptoms,

and the experience is all taken care of by paid volunteers with tackling minds.

Each individual is paired with a qualified angling coach that has

additional training to work with.

Vulnerable individuals.

Fish are caught in, returned community bonds are made and

the impact has reached the king.

This organization will be recognized by King Charles in December, and they

hope to continue like expanding with the NHS across the country through.

The NH S'S social Prescribing initiative.

So those are just like getting people to the museums, getting people out

in the parks, getting people in walks and in nature, um, to help

those, you know, suffering with different mental health symptoms

to get connected to the community.

And again, and most importantly, getting outside.

All of this is grounded.

Much like our music episode is today of, you know, getting into something.

And so much of the NHS with their social prescribing initiatives is

just helping connect people together.

Because we're in lonely times and helping get people outside, being outside will

drastically improve your mental health.

So I just thought that this was really sweet.

Above anything in the article, there's a picture.

Um.

And I don't know if this is for certain, but I can maybe guess that

like what an interesting opportunity to kind of, uh, approach this

with men, you know, amab people.

Mm-hmm.

And kind of providing this as something I think of somebody like my dad who never

gets to fish a lot, but really loves it and is totally a form of solitude and,

you know, just something that like my dad in his fifties can do and enjoys.

And so, you know, what a way to.

Bring men together, you know?

And again, I don't think this is predominantly just for men, but I think

it's like a really interesting approach.

And the fact that the NHS is putting money and people behind this because

they believe in the social prescribing initiatives is just really cool.

And I'm like, okay, k, you guys, you guys got some stuff and shout out.

Mm-hmm.

So pretty interesting.

Yeah.

I mean, I love the social and nature prescriptions becoming more of a thing.

Yes.

Count on me to be the buzzkill because why do we have to pierce

these fish in them out my mouths, even if we're gonna and terrify them,

even if we're gonna put them back.

Sure.

So I would love if fishing, the act of fishing to me is like

being out on the boat, being in the quiet, being on the water.

Mm-hmm.

Being maybe by yourself or with your friend, not talking hardly like.

We don't need to pierce fucking fish in the mouth to do that.

So that's my, my PSA.

But um, okay, so imagine my delight when I go onto the Good News Network.

And I find on the front page, Sergeant Bo, who is a former stray dog here in Ye

old Nashville, Tennessee that, oh my God, was rescued off the streets of Florida

in 2022, became a certified therapy dog with the Nashville Police Department.

You know, again, complications say, you know, police, there's

issues there, of course.

Um, but this, this dog, Sergeant Bo worked with former Officer Faye ert, um, and

had been working in his line of work this little dog for just three months when

the Covenant School shooting happened.

Um, which was a devastating thing for our community as any school

shooting is for any community.

Um, mm-hmm.

So, Sergeant Be was there to comfort kids and families climbing into the

buses, resting with students as just staying until the last family left.

And Be has continued since visiting schools across the community.

Um, and Ms. Ert, who then became a an SRO School Resource Officer,

advocated for a program that trains homeless pets as therapy dogs.

So Sergeant Beau was just named the 2025 Hero Dog by the American Humane Society.

Um, which is so exciting.

So the, the president of the Humane Society said during profoundly difficult

times, their presence served as a powerful beacon of hope and safety.

Exactly the qualities this award seeks to recognize.

And then earlier this year, poor little bow tore his ACL.

So he has been officially retired and Faye also retired.

So, 'cause she just was like, I can't keep working without bo by my side.

But be is still continuing to do little light visits, just not formally

working as a, um, service dog.

So

Love that.

So sweet.

That's

so cute.

Shout out.

Be I know.

All right, listeners, go turn on some music now.

Go bump like a good track and go wiggle your body and we'll see you next time.

Bye bye.

This has been another episode of But For Real, produced by

Valerie Martin and Emerson writer

and edited by Sean Con.

But for Real is the Gaia Center production.

The Gaia Center offers individual couples and group therapy for clients

across Tennessee and in person in our Nashville office, as well as

coaching for clients worldwide.

For show notes or to learn more about our work, visit gaia center.co or find us

on Instagram at the Gaia Center and at.

But for Real Pod But for Real is

intended for education and entertainment and is not a substitute

for mental health treatment.

Also since we host this podcast primarily as humans rather than clinicians, we

are not shy here about sharing our opinions on everything from snacks and

movies to politicians and social issues.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode.

See you next time.

Bestie.