As an architect or building designer, I bet you love sharing

photos of buildings and spaces that you've designed, especially if it's a

project you are particularly proud of.

That's why so many architecture firms, websites and social media

channels are filled with photos of their work, their buildings, their

portfolio, and not their people.

If that sounds like your practice website or social media accounts,

then you are missing out on a big opportunity to stand out and build

no, like and trust with people far more easily than your competitors.

I'm joined by brand photographer.

Catherine Turner who share how personal brand photos can benefit your firm.

In this episode of Architecture Business Club, the weekly podcast for

small firm founders who want to build their dream business in architecture

and enjoy more freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment in what they do.

I'm John Clayton, your host.

Having spent over 20 years working in architecture, I know how hard it can

be to explain your services so people truly understand and value what you do.

Many firms struggle with this, but by sharing your stories on podcasts,

you can become the trusted voice in your market, grow your brand,

and attract much better clients.

We can help you with everything from podcast strategy and launch

production and management, podcast hosting and guesting through to

promoting and growing your show.

If you'd like to discover how podcasting could benefit your business, click the

link in the show notes to book a no obligation chat about working with me.

Or if you're interested in being a guest on this show, email John.

That's JO n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's discuss personal brand photography.

Catherine Turner is a brand photographer and also co-host for the You are

the media, London community events.

She can help you have.

Awesome photos, whether you shyly, cringe, or boldly perform while having them taken.

She's based in the southeast of England, but travels the country with

a kit, including an essential pop-up stool as she's a bit of a shorty.

Catherine is also a wife, a bonus mum, and has a cockapoo called Arthur.

Catherine.

Welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Thank you, John.

That's a lovely welcome.

If maybe I.

I can vouch for that.

We have, we have met in person on many occasions.

Um, yes, you are a little bit on the short side, but that's, that's a good thing.

That's fine.

best things come in small packages apparently, John.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I agree with that.

So, um, Catherine we've got, um, a really great topic that

we're gonna talk about today.

But before we dig into all of that I'd love to hear a bit more about

what you enjoy doing outside of work.

John, I could, I might have you here all day

just on this bit, this question.

Um, what do I like?

Do I like walking my dog after, as I already know.

Um, I'm taken up wild.

Well, taking up wild swimming.

Um.

I've always been into a bit of like adventure sports stuff, so I was

always like, I used to have like obstacle racing and that sort of thing.

But as I've aged a little, that's not so accessible.

But wild swimming is so, um, our local chalk pit lake, which

sounds very glamorous but isn't as glamorous, it sounds, um, is um,

actually quite really fun for a good.

I love a bit of gardening, very like das are my thing.

Last year, very successful first year of growing das.

Um, this year I'm not so sure and I also love a bit of painting,

crochet, bit of diamond art.

In fact, this weekend I'm gonna join into a, a painting jam.

Which I think is like a, a cool kind of cool kind of American way

of saying uh, sort of paint, paint a on almost like for like 24 hours.

'cause it's the, it's the summer solstice as we record this.

So, um, so yeah, be looking forward to doing some painting over the weekend.

Oh, that sounds really cool.

I have to, um, ask you about the wild swimming.

That's something that I'd love to give that a try.

How was it the first time when you did that and first getting into the,

presumably quite cold British waters?

Do you know?

Um, it's, it's really therapeutic, John.

It's so, like, there's something amazing about the darkness of the water.

I mean, so I ha, although having said that.

The, you know, even be having done lots of obstacle events and being

in cold water before that first sort of time you're going in.

Like, have you, I had the wet, so you, the fear for me, the fear is like that

there's this very deep water, it's sort of five, six meters down or whatever it is.

Like, so there's nothing underneath you.

But let's face it for me, for me, anything over six foot is five

and a half foot is gonna be deep.

So, um, so, so that getting in that deep.

Dark water, not having your phone next to you.

You are like literally phone free gadget free tv, free book, free

music, free noise for everything.

It's just absolutely, I. It is actually delightful.

And the, um, the coldness is, I, I dunno, maybe I'm just a bit weird,

John, but I quite like, I quite like it.

Um, it, it is getting warmer now.

We were up to, when I went yesterday, it, it is up to I think 19 degrees.

Uh, the last time I went it was 17 degrees, which was

still a little cold and I've.

Managed to do through the winter and went down to about eight degrees.

So yeah, you kind of have to prepare yourself and if you've got

the right wetsuit, you'll be fine.

So, so give it a go, John.

Go for it.

Yeah, I will do.

I think, um, if you, if you're listening to this thinking, oh, I'm

gonna give that a try, I would say go with a friend or go with a club.

Rather than, like, don't just go on your own into some like

Cold River or, or random place.

Um, yeah.

definitely.

That, that would be the big thing.

I mean, where I am, it's an organized space, so, um, we have to

book and go and, and so it's like, yeah, we've, it's always people.

They've got a life, we've got a lifeguard in our lake, so it's, um,

it's a properly organized space.

But I mean, wild, wild swimming when you're actually out in the, the lake

district or something is another thing.

But as you say, be safe.

That is a, and there's a lot of hidden dangers when it comes to

water, so always remember that.

Yeah, we're not like the kind of wild swimming safety

commission here, but, you know, just, just, just if you're listening and

think I'm gonna give that a try.

Uh, yeah.

Just like, you know, reasonable precautions and all of

that, but have fun too.

So Kare, we are gonna talk about.

Personal brand photos so that architecture firms can better understand

the benefits of this for their firm.

In my experience traditionally if, if architecture firms do decide to

invest in photos, it's usually of their buildings or of spaces that they've

designed, not necessarily of the people.

That's an interesting thing really, I think, and from your perspective, I'd

I'd like to start with and just ask why are personal brand photos so important?

I like.

Okay, so where do I start with this one?

It's.

I absolutely value 100%.

There is the value in the needing to show their work and show the inspirations.

And so show, you know, show that all the stuff needs to be shown.

And that is gonna be a key, obviously.

But if people are not actually showing the humans behind the businesses, you're

totally missing a marketing trick.

I mean it, you are your best.

By piece of marketing, you're the best marketing tool that you could possibly be.

Um, and the people within your business, you know, so if, if people are not showing

their face, you, you are losing that out.

That kind of no like trust factor.

I know it sounds, it's all very, you know, it's a very sort of, oh, click

you that kitch kind of marketing terms.

I like, oh no, like trust, but, um.

There's so much, you, so much truth in that, you know, when you look through

your feed, um, on any social media, um, or you look on any website where you're.

Considering a purchase of a a service, particularly where you are

going to be working with humans, you really, really need to be able to

see the humans kind of make sense.

And there's a, you know, that's, that's, um, it's a big deal, you

know, if you've, if you've got, um, different professionals within the

team doing different things, then.

They're different humans themselves.

And why do we not want to know those people behind who we're going to be

working with and paying a lot of, potentially a lot of money to, you know,

even if you are company to company, if you're working with a big company, um.

You might think, well, it's not important.

No, no individual's looking at me.

Well, there is some individual somewhere who is making a decision about where

that money is going to be set spent.

Even if it then has to be, you know, decided by a team.

You know it, it's still going to be.

Who am I working with?

Can I work with these people?

Are they going to, you know, do I feel like I can trust them?

Do I feel like I can know them?

Are they professional enough?

Are they, you know, yes, it might say it all in your words.

It might be a fantastic looking logo that you've got on your website,

but if you've missed the trick of putting your face or the faces of your

team, um, in amongst your marketing.

And I mean, when I say marketing, I'm talking about your website.

I'm talking about your social posts.

I'm talking about any appearances and your, um, you're making, if you're, um,

if you are speaking somewhere, if you are running a workshop, if you're, or

anything that you might be doing that puts you in front of your potential audience.

That's your marketing.

And yeah, don't miss the trick of putting you and your face.

There did, I did go off on a.

Uh, no, I think, I think you did answer the question there, Catherine.

You did for sure.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, so from what you said, it is really important because it is helping

to build that know, like, and trust that people will often talk about.

I think we've all heard that phrase used quite a lot, so people will be

familiar with that, but it's true.

And that, um, if you are.

Presumably, you know, you're in, you're running a business, you are selling

services, professional services, and people buy from people, you know, so

it's great to, you said, um, it was great to still have the portfolio

and, and share, you know, photos of, of the projects and things, but.

People love to, to get to know the people behind the business, like who

they're going to be working with, who they're going to be dealing with.

And, um, yeah.

Yeah, that does sound like a missed opportunity if, if you're not doing that.

And also I think, I think, um, I mean I may

be broad stroke wrong here, but.

I think like the architectural world is probably seen as one of those

very, very, very professional, highly professional, highly skilled workers.

Um, a sort of corporate edge almost.

You know, there's suited, maybe not suited, maybe working very

careful in their offices and so on.

But, um, but that office sort of based working, and that is not

necessarily the truth, John, is it?

You know, that's not the truth.

And um, I think that any way that you can stand out from that busy the genre that

we've kind of created in our head, the way we think of it, if you can stand out

differently, you are going to be noticed.

You're going to be.

Picked up for the right reasons.

You know, if you can in some way represent your brand and what you stand

for as a company or as a business or as an individual, you know, if you

can stand out differently that, and do not do what the rest of the crowd are

doing, you know, you might feel like you're like, this is really out the way.

This is, this is really odd.

This isn't, um, something that everyone else is doing.

It's gonna, I'm gonna be frowned upon.

Well, heck no.

You are gonna be the one that's.

Brave, you are gonna be the one that is stepping up and into, into your sort of,

you know, investible, you're an investible person because you're actually doing

the thing that you want to be bold and you want to, um, you know, you want to

invest in yourself and make yourself the business that people go to and be noticed.

So, hey, do it.

Absolutely.

Now, um, I was gonna ask a follow up question.

I think you've, you've kind of answered it already, I think, but I'll ask it

anyway just in case there's anything else that comes out from it that, if

there's somebody, if you're listening to this and you're an architect and

you are thinking about getting some photos done or if you're an interior

designer, architecture technologist, basically anybody's professional

service provider in the architecture industry, you know, why, why would they

prioritize, personal brand photography?

What's the the case for them to prioritize that as opposed

to them getting more photos of.

Finished buildings and in Syria.

I think, um, at the end of the day, you in your work are a

business and you are trying to sell and you, I. I think all the time that you

are hiding away or you are just having the logo and just concentrating on the,

the, the client work, you know, and forgetting that marketing is a super

important thing and forgetting that a super, super important, important

part of marketing would be you.

Um.

I think you're missing the, the possibility of looking at professional

in front of your audience.

You are looking, you are, you are looking.

Yeah.

And I say professional and that's like a broad stroke word again because you know,

you can be a funny, fun, and funky, um.

Architect, you know, you can be a corporate stoic, steady architect,

you know, can't, you could be, you can be all of those things.

But if you're not putting yourself out there and your face out there and doing

the whole brand, sort of brand presence thing, you know, you're not being, it,

you know, you're not being, it, you're not being it so that people understand it

and really understand what they're going to get from you as a, as a difference.

You know, that's, you know, you can hide behind some colors and a nice logo, but.

It just, it's like just missing such a trick.

You know?

It, I think.

The other, the other sort of part of it is, is like if you are investing

wisely in your marketing, in whatever form that is, you know, beyond

photos, if you're investing wisely and you, you become investible.

You know, if, if you are investing yourself as a marketing tool,

and then people will feel like, well, you are, you are.

That's a step more.

Professional than the last person I looked at, or they've got something

extra that, that the other person I looked at only had a logo.

It doesn't, it's not very, this is feeling a bit more, something I, this becomes

an investible um, investment as it were.

You know, again, that people do business with people.

Yeah, that's um.

That makes a lot of sense.

I hadn't thought of it from that angle, actually, but that's, that's very true.

That they, you're being seen then to be investing in yourself on your business,

which again, it's gonna help improve the reputation and, you know, that help

build that trust by having that there.

I think the other thing, the difference is that, I mean, when you're getting

photos of finished projects and spaces that it's, you're showing the work.

But you're not showing the person or the people that are doing the work.

And actually from, from many clients' perspective, whilst some of those

prospective clients, they, you know, they obviously, the work does matter.

They're gonna be interested in that, but actually their priority might not be that.

They might be saying, well actually, you know, we've got, three different

firms that we've been talking to, and they all seem equally competent

to be able to design our building.

So what is the differentiator?

And that's the thing, isn't it?

That if you are visible, if you have personal brand photography that's

used in your marketing, it is a great differentiator because you are.

You're humanizing it.

They're not just dealing with this like faceless business and logo and

to help build that connection as early as possible and to help you stand out.

Then personal brand photography is a brilliant way to be able to do that.

So yeah, I think there's definitely a case for, for architects and architecture firms

generally to be incorporating this into their, their marketing strategy generally.

For

Hundred percent.

I think, you know, I think there's like, there's ways, um, sort of

beyond the, the brand beyond just the professional photos as well.

It's like just, you know, leaning into video.

Do you selfies?

I mean, I know that might Absolutely.

Your listeners might be curling up and going, what?

No, I do not wanna be doing a selfie.

But honestly, you know, we want more, again, another buzzword, the authentic

self, the people, the, the real realness.

Brand photos have that professional feel, so that gives you your nice website stuff.

It gives you, you know, maybe stuff a post, but, but there's so much

more around the visual content.

You know, and I can go down a complete rabbit hole now, John and talk about that.

But, but yeah, that whole humanizing is, is a big deal.

And, and let's face it, there are, there are many.

There's sharks out there who work in all of our industries.

Um, and people will have been bitten by those sharks, uh, maybe because

they chose them because they had nice wording on their website, and

then this time they're thinking, Hey, I really, really need to know the

people I'm gonna work with this time.

So they're gonna look differently.

And you might be that point of being different if you humanized your,

um, marketing and your presence.

So.

Mm. Okay.

So I was wondering if you could maybe share some example use cases for

personal brand photos beyond just the, um, about page head, shorter,

maybe the LinkedIn profile because.

If you're listening to this thinking, well, well, John, Catherine, this all

sounds great, but if I'm gonna invest some money in these photos, you know,

and I'm going to push myself a little bit out of my comfort zone, or, or

our, our team are gonna have a day where we get some photos done, then I.

we wanna leverage this asset that we've got now.

We want to, you know, use it as much as we can.

So, beyond just sticking those photos on an about page and maybe your LinkedIn

headshot or Instagram, how else could we use these amazing photos that we get

from our personal brand photo shoots?

Okay.

So I would, um, I would go with like thinking about somebody like,

okay, like Nicole Osborne, um, she's a, she's a, she's a marketer.

She admittedly, so she's not an architect.

And a previous and a previous guest

Has she just, okay, John, I need to

go back and listen to Nicole.

Well, there we go.

She's the fine, fine example of how to sort of prolifically put yourself

in the frame of like, I, you know, she works with agencies and she works

with big, you know, big, big corporate agencies and different agencies.

You know, people who, um.

know, they're, they're not, it's not small time staff.

It's not, it's like, you know, this is a big deal.

So, you know, but she's not afraid to be that kind of bold person to go.

Right here I am on a post.

I'm gonna put a PO photo of me, and it's gonna be a conversation

that's in my, in my mark.

You know, it is a conversation, it's a conversation starter.

So, um, you know, photos of her doing things, photos of her looking, but she's

got a great mix between the professional photos and the authentic self.

Selfie type stuff as well.

So, you know, she, she's bold enough to even use some photos with her family,

but that's obviously permissable by them.

Um, and, and a lean a little into that personal, actual, personal life.

But I mean, things like, I've just talked about wild swimming, you know, it, it

wouldn't be a miss for, for some, uh, I know I'm a photographer, I know it's a

bit different to architecture, but you know, there's nothing wrong with sort

of saying, okay, this is what I'm doing at the weekend, and sticking it in your

stories and, and sort of, you know.

Per, again, I think if I wasn't thinking about the architectural firms.

I'm thinking that they would be using them, you know, there's different

individual members between the firm.

It could be a thing, you could create a theme each month.

You know, it's like the, what did so and so have for breakfast this month?

You know, what did you know what, what, um, what's your favorite

day of the week and what you like?

Honestly, the most basic of things that become talking points, which are

actually the most and most engaging content when it comes to marketing.

So some, somebody like, like Nicole, will do that.

Well, I've got another example of, um, a lady, she's called Lucy Ridout.

She's a fiction and travel editor.

And, and yes, like all her, her photos on her professional, um, on

her website, she's not into using social media for her marketing.

She doesn't work work in that sense.

But her, um, her photos on her website as a professional service provider,

you know, who's somebody who's not into wanting to be jazz hands and out there

and like, Hey, I wanna jump around and leaping around in front of a camera thing.

She's definitely not like that.

Calm.

Nice photos of her, but also to intersperse that with photos

that were taken at the time.

This is where the personal brand bit sort of comes a bit different where

she's had like, you know, maybe her hands are working on something and it

all then looks really consistent and it looks really professional to bring

her photos together in, in one place.

Um, so yeah, that's, that's

I'm, I I'm also thinking then that, so, so an example there was.

You said that in addition to using these photos on or about page and you know,

maybe the LinkedIn headshot photo, there's an opportunity to use those throughout

our, you know, if we're using, uh, social media, if we're on LinkedIn or Instagram,

wherever, you can use some of those professional brand photos if you wish.

You can then mix them in with more like selfies or ad hoc things that

are a bit less polished, but what.

What strikes me is that if somebody is maybe a little uncomfortable with

having their photo taken or taking selfies, actually investing in a

set of personal brand photos that then they can use again and again.

They can, they can recycle some of the same ones.

If they've got, um, a batch of photos from the photographer that they've worked

with, like that could be that they.

They could be present, uh, online.

They could share photos of them, and each time they do it, they've got a really

nice selection of photos to choose from.

And they're not sat there thinking, you know what, I'm really not in the mood.

I. To take a photo or I feel a bit uncomfortable.

The fact that they've basically got a, a larger batch of some really

great shots all in one shoot means that then they can, if they wish,

can, you know, drip feed those out over a period of months afterwards.

That that's, yeah.

I think you, you explained it really well there, John.

I think, um, like, like for example, when I do.

Brand photography.

You know, I will do the photos of the people with their face and, and

smiling and, and that sort of thing, and doing their thing and stuff.

But it's also that opportunity to do like a sort of stock set, which is

like becomes your personal stock set.

It means it's not bought off of, it's not been bought off of, of iStock.

You've not, you've not gone ahead and just used the same ones as everyone else.

You've got this whole personal set where, so like where your hands are

working, maybe it's an over the head.

Like from behind shot.

Maybe it's a one where you are sort of in the distance even, but it's still you.

And you might feel a bit like, well, will they even know that that's me?

Does it matter?

Can I just use the stock shop?

There is definitely a difference between a stock shop off of a, a stock

website and your personal set that all kind of sing together because

you've had them done that same day.

You know, it kind of makes sense.

And also you.

Thought through what your props might be.

You know, maybe you've got something particular on your dad.

I mean, I've got a little alama and a little frog here.

So, you know, maybe there's some personal things that are kind of

like around you or part of your day.

You know, maybe your dog is around and you wanna just like pay pet.

Those little, those sort of shots might be those little nice little

talking points or something.

That means you can, you know, you don't, like you just said, you know, if you're

not really feeling it for being more bold, you've got that option to have this

little, this set that you've got that you can pull out at any time and you can

reuse quite easily and dress up your, um.

Your websites and everything with, you know, it makes it

really, really consistent.

Again, looking professional.

Again, not great marketing tool, you know, all, all, um, all about you.

Remember, don't forget to join the wait list for

our membership community, where you can meet other business owners

who want the same thing as you.

If a thriving business that gives you more freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.

just go to architecture, business club.com forward slash waitlist, or

click the link in the show notes.

And enter your details.

So you don't miss out on this amazing opportunity to improve

your business and your life.

And if you're enjoying the show, then please leave a five-star review or

rating wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now, back to the show.

Another thing that you mentioned there was, um, you mentioned about, oh,

you know, maybe your dog's in some of the shots, that sort of thing.

It's this stuff that, I found can really make a difference with, um, building

connection because when you start to reveal more of who you really are and

you know, like it could be that, you know, maybe on the photo shoot you're

wearing I dunno, like a, a band t-shirt.

I mean I wear a lot of band t-shirts when I record these interviews.

I've got like my guitar in the backgrounds.

I, you know, I've, I have like Lego sets and things that I do.

So it's little things like that that people are like, oh, oh, you

know, um, oh, John's a dog owner.

He's a musician.

He, he likes to build Lego.

Oh, I like to build Lego.

He sounds like someone I'd like to talk to.

And it, that could be the thing That means that they choose your

architecture practice over another.

As silly as it sounds, they might just think, well, these,

all, these all look good.

They all look competent.

But actually.

The founder of that firm?

Well, well, he's a guitarist and I play guitar, so he'd be cool to chat with.

Let's chat with him instead.

So yeah, that kind of, um,

It feels like you're on the same wavelength, doesn't it?

When you see something or you connect with, like you just

said, it's that connection thing.

It's that hook and, and also it also makes it memorable.

You know, when you are, your brain kind of will, will work in a, like

when it comes from a sort of visual marketing way, your brain will not

necessarily remember all the names and all the things that you've read.

You know, you might think, oh, but until you've connected it with an image as well.

You will remember that stuff when you've seen an image and that you know, that

t-shirt or that that guitar or that that thing, you know, really, like you say,

it sounds like it might be silly, but.

When we call to mind people that we've chosen to work with ourselves, if you

think about it for, if you think about a plumber or an electrician or you know,

something else, you'll remember that person that came around, but probably

'cause they remember their t-shirt or you remember like what they had, the

conversation they had about their dog.

Or you know, you've kind of visually put something into your head in

some way and it, and it makes that connection so much easier.

Again, all marketing.

Yeah, I think, um, there was a statistic that I heard somewhere,

which I, I wish I had it to hand because I can't actually remember the numbers.

But it was to do with whether or not, like if people share an

image or a photo on social media.

Um, that statistically the photos that included a face that

included a person would get much higher engagement on that post.

And there was this, you know, study that was done on that, that actually

those did tend to perform much better.

And I, I wish I could remember the statistic, but I, I don't have it to hand.

So, um.

Here you go.

I've got, I've got a statistic for you, John.

You'll like this one.

Okay.

I've got you.

We have in our brains going on an 11 million sensory bits

of info every second, right?

So sensory bits of info might mean, um, what we're touching, what we're feeling,

the, the temperature that we are bothering about what's going on in our eye line,

what's going on in our background of our hearing, what's going on, you know,

literally everything that's going on around us, our taste, all the sensations.

What makes a stand stand?

Sit, lay down.

Whether we are comfortable to do that, whether we need to shift

our body weight or something.

So all of tho, those 11 million bits are going on at a time.

You've got 40, 40,004.

No, just 40.

Sorry, just 40 are processed.

Consciously and those four of those four forties process consciously

things that will stand out.

Mostly this won't surprise you.

Anything that relates to sex or that makes us feel, I dunno why

I whispered that sex, that's it.

Okay.

Relates to sex or makes us think or feel or, or something about that.

Anything that relates to food because that's, these are all

our primal instincts and our, and our biggest one will be faces.

Anything that relates to faces.

Humans are absolutely engineered.

Biologically to be able to see and notice faces.

So when you're scrolling your feed, you will nine times outta 10 stop on

something where you've got a human in that photo or in that post or in that thing.

Um, you will notice the human above anything else.

So, yeah, that's it.

It's that face.

The faces we're programmed for it.

I love a good statistic, and, and if in doubt, if you're

too scared to, put your own face on there, a good old dog or you know,

cat photo that always go down well.

Well, it's their big eyes cat babies, you know, they, the big

eyes, the eyes thing is a, is a, is a thi is actually that our human instinct is

to take notice and, and to, I mean, okay.

A good example of it is like if you're, let's say you were sitting in

a restaurant and somebody starts to sort of look around them and they're,

and you can see them that you are noticing their facial expression because

they're looking at something over your shoulder or something behind you.

Your instinct is just to look at it and.

You know, you are paying attention to what's going on on their face and what

you're, so yeah, that's a, that's a way to remember how important your face is.

That's really interesting.

So, um, Catherine, what, what would your recommendations be when

considering choosing a photographer?

Do you have any tips for, for that, what to consider?

I think.

I.

A lot of people work via recommendation.

That's always a good route.

You know, gather together a nice list of who's possible.

Um, definitely look at websites or portfolios.

Um.

Or Instagrams or LinkedIns or whatever it is you feel comfortable to looking

at, um, to just get a feel for, again, like as if somebody was looking at an

architectural firm, you'd be looking for the style, the way they were,

the themes that they work around.

You know, that kind of, you'd be looking to see what their vibe is.

That might be what you need to look for in your photographer too.

And if they are adaptable to the vibe that you might want to be giving off and

then you also want to be looking for them.

The person, again, human, you know, can I work with that person?

Do I feel like they look quite the comfortable sort of person I could

chat to and give all my, I hate my ears thing, or I hate my knees.

Please don't show them.

You know?

Can I, can I have that conversation with them?

Um.

And, and start from there.

Really, you want somebody, you know is going to do professional jobs, so they've

got a good sort of examples going on.

You want somebody who's gonna be concise with you because you are,

you know, probably time poor.

It's quite common.

You've been business, so you know, you need to be somebody who's going to direct

everything for you and just get it sorted.

Yeah, but, and, but have convers again, have, don't be afraid to reach out

and have conversations with people and say, Hey, I just wonder if.

Can you, can you tell me a bit more about what you do or, and get a feel before

you go ahead and, and go book in someone, you know, just get a feel and if anyone's

super stuck, I really don't mind if they reach out and ask me questions and I,

that's not to be working with me, but just if they wanna say, look Catherine, I'm

kind of thinking about this photographer, but I dunno how to approach it.

I'm happy for a conversation, so, you know, I'll help you out.

Oh, that's really generous.

Thanks, Catherine.

Yeah, I think that's, um, true that obviously the quality of the, the work

and the, the photography is important, but if, if you're gonna have a shoot

with them and if you don't feel comfortable with them, you know, like.

That could make a huge difference to the whole experience of it.

And, you know, if you have a bad experience, you might be like,

oh, never doing that again.

Oh, I'm never gonna have photos done again.

That was really terrible.

But if you, you know, if you are with a somebody that's, you click with who

a nice person and you know, they could really make it a such a better experience

for you, you could go from feeling like, you know what I was feeling a bit.

Maybe I was dreading it a little bit 'cause I hate having my photo

taken and by the end of the day you might be like, oh, you know what?

I actually really enjoyed that.

That was so much fun, had such a good day.

And that comes down to the how that photographer is and how comfortable

they're able to make you feel on the day.

A hundred percent.

And also like in the lead up to that time, you know, maybe you've had

a chance for a Zoom, maybe you've had a chance for a phone call.

Maybe you've had a chance for some FaceTime or something.

Maybe you've joined on WhatsApp and you're asking questions to them.

You know, all of that contributes to that day.

I. I, I, I mean, I'm telling you now, you know, all like

nine times I say, I say 90%.

Here we go.

Just give more statistics 'cause we like it.

Um, 9 90, 90 5% of people, John will like absolutely hate having their photos taken.

And that comes even to the most confident of people in the, as experts within

their, the, the marketing world even.

You know, so like, seriously, people just just.

Feel Uncom.

Yeah.

It's, it's a, it's a weird thing to, to be in front of a camera and have to perform.

It's not your everyday talent.

You are not a model, you know, unless you are a model, then

that's a different thing.

But, um, but you know, you're not a model.

It's not your thing.

So, so if you choose the right photographer who understands that,

um, you will be super comfortable.

You'll have a good day, and by the end of it, you'll go out going, oh, actually.

That was a bit better than I thought, and actually maybe I had some fun and

it was a a day out of the office, so.

Yeah, absolutely.

Catherine, could you briefly explain photo licensing?

How does that normally work with photographers?

I.

I'll give you a brief, a brief, a brief rundown on this.

Okay?

So first of all, I'm not a solicitor, so anything I do say, please don't quote.

Um, but basically when photos are taken, whether they're for buildings,

whether they're for people, any, any photo, the photographer.

In the UK holds the copyright of those photos.

Licensing is like giving you a right to the use of those photos.

So every photographer will have like some standard issue license,

so it might be permitted use for.

Website work, or it might be whatever.

They will have their, their own set of standard, but then

you might want something more.

So let's say you are a firm that's going to be marketing worldwide.

Maybe you are going to be putting up a billboard somewhere and maybe

you are going to make, create books and maybe, you know, you've

got a lot more uses that you need.

So you need to ask for the rights to those, you know, the

license for those purposes.

And so, you know, it could be to do with the site that you'll, you'll get charged

differently depending on the sizing, depending on the distribution, depending

on the territory you're asking for.

And the length of time you're asking for the use as well.

You can ask for the copyright.

You can pay outright and own those photos.

It's not really necessary.

It's, it's.

From a, from our sort of point of view, because, you know, for, for

a photographer to give up their copyright, they're giving up their,

um, you know, any future potential money that they might make from it.

Brand photos are a bit different because I'm not likely to sell your photos.

I'm not, I not don't need to use your photos.

I might use some of the stock ones though.

In my old age I might start retiring and, and putting, putting

out some of the stock photos.

But, um.

But not so much, not so much the face type ones.

Um, but yeah, like for buildings that, all that stuff, you know, if, if it gets

shown on the news, then that's, that's that the, the news ought to, you know, be.

Paying a right fit, a fee, a license fee for that.

So, so yeah, that's, that's kind of where, but don't be afraid to

negotiate as well because we, we are a business and we are just trying

to create a sustainable business.

I think people feel like, oh, the photographer's doing me out of like

a load of money and they want this.

And, you know, sometimes it's, it's, that's not the case.

You know, we, we do want the best.

You know, at the end of the day, we want a good working relationship.

We wanna be able to work with you again.

So, so don't be afraid.

Just ask.

And if you have bought one step of rights and then later on you find

you need more, just ask, rather than going ahead and hoping for the best.

Because there are photographers out there who will have like search,

like they have search companies that search for photos and will check out

who's using them without the rights.

Yeah, it's just like music, just like words in a book.

You wouldn't go around copying out people's books and selling

them and you wouldn't go around, selling people's music.

If you are earning money out of the photos that you're using,

then you owe the photographer.

Right.

Money.

Yep.

that may.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

So, uh, essentially it it's about just making sure that the license

is appropriate for the use case.

So don't automatically assume when you get some.

Photos that you could use them for anything and everything.

If you are going to like, say, say for instance that you mentioned about,

oh, it's gonna be on, maybe it gets used on TV or something, you know,

it's possible this, this could happen.

That might be a conversation you need to have with your

photographer about the license.

But I would say generally if you, if it's use cases.

You know, things like putting it on your website and your social media that

I think most photographers licenses would kind of cover that as a baseline.

But if you're looking to do other things or reselling it or something

like, that's where you need to have a conversation about the license.

If you are going to do some PR in any sense, and you haven't

told the photographer that you're gonna be using it, you're gonna make a middle.

Yeah.

A spread within a magazine or something.

Either you are paying because you are paying for, for the

pr, or if, if somebody is, um.

If, if you are being paid for it, then it's the magazine or whoever it is

that needs to pay the photographer.

So, so yeah, it's, it's, it's, it is, it becomes complicated

with who is doing what.

But um, yeah, I tell you that, I tell you the place to go

if you, if the place to go.

For the information that makes it really, really clear.

So the association of photography, a OP, um, and they, if you go to info

and you go to copyright for clients, there's copyright for clients.

That gives you a basic, um, overview.

And there's an FAQs on there, which really covers a lot.

So, and that's just, just for, for, for Joe blogs to go and read.

And understand if you're really confused and you're like, am I within my rights?

Can I use this?

Do I need to?

And don't be afraid to ask.

Just literally ask.

We are humans.

We are the photographers.

If you wanna ask, ask

Perfect.

So, um, Catherine, what would be the main thing that you'd like

everyone to take away from this?

main thing.

I think I would like everybody to, don't underestimate you as a marketing tool.

When it comes to visual content, I think, yeah.

Is that nice and

I like it.

That's really good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Straight to the point.

A really good one.

Was there anything else you wanted to add that we haven't

already covered about the topic?

I think we've covered a lot.

You know, I think that reminder of like, you know, even for suited professionals,

you know, people who are suited and so on, you know, traditionally, and you're

seen that way as a logo or a name.

You know, be bold and stand out.

You know, be yourself, break the mold.

Break the molds.

Absolutely.

So, um, Catherine, there's one other thing I wanted to ask you.

Not, not about photography specifically.

I love to travel and discover new places, and I just wondered if you

could tell me about one of your favorite places and what you love about it.

Okay, so I, I was thinking about this.

I was thinking, oh, I will pick, I'm, I'm pick the Lake district.

I dunno if you've been there, John, have you been

I have many times.

Yeah.

See, so I feel like I'm not teaching you anything new,

but I, I think like for, for me, like district holds a special place from

when I did obstacle racing and my very first marathon was done as an

obstacle race in the late district.

And we started, um, at Morgan Bay and ran

was from.

right.

where I used to, I used to live.

Yeah, I used to live in Morcom.

I think I know that.

Um, yeah, and we ran, like early morning we ran across the bay.

We had to wait for the, the, the tide to be in the right place.

And we were led out by a tractor across that, um, comb bay and then up into

the hills and over, over these hills.

And I, I. Every type of terrain.

I think we went on.

So we started on that sand up into like piney pine, like bouncy pine cones of

the territory and um, into, into rocky bits and down and down into Windermere.

Um, and we finished in Windermere and on the lake.

So my experience at the Lake District having seen like.

Every little bit of terrain over there and yeah, absolutely stunning

and the tranquility of it, absolutely brilliant, and of course, perfect

for any sort of wild swimming, so.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh, well, I'm with you on that.

The late district.

I love it.

Absolutely love it.

I, um, I last, I was last there couple of months before recording this

episode and, um, with some friends and we climbed Scarfo Pike, uh, highest

mountain in England, and we were, so, we were really lucky with the weather.

Perfect conditions.

Uh, I wasn't quite as lucky with my walking boot, which I actually, on the way

down, I managed to split my walking boot.

Fortunately it was near the end, so it was all good.

But yeah, late district's amazing place.

If you've never been there, then you, you, you know, you should go

and go and give it a visit for sure.

Definitely.

Catherine, this has been amazing.

Thanks so much for sharing all your expertise.

Really appreciate it.

Where's the best place for people to connect with you online?

Well, my, I'm gonna say my favorite place first, it's

gonna be Instagram, so you'll find me as entirely Catherine Photography.

Catherine Turner on Instagram, but I am featuring on LinkedIn too, but

it's not my favorite place to be.

But do say hello there.

I do check.

Do check in.

So that's where I'm gonna be.

Cool.

And um.

Hello.

If you've listened to the I'd love it.

If people listen to the episode and they say, I listened to the

episode on John John's podcast.

Um, you know, just say hello.

That, that would be really cool.

Thank you.

That would be great.

And what about your website?

Where can people find that?

That is entirely catherine photography.com.

Um, yes, that's me.

You will find me

Awesome.

Yeah.

And I'll make sure I put a link to your Instagram and

your website in the show notes.

Marvelous.

Thank you so much, John.

I really appreciate it.

Really good chat.

Thank you.

And I really hope that we've inspired a few architects to, to break the mold.

Absolutely.

I hope so too.

Thanks again, Catherine.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode of architecture business club.

If you liked this episode, think other people might enjoy it.

Or just want to show your support for the show.

Then please leave a glowing five-star review or rating wherever you listen

to podcasts, it would mean so much to me and makes it easier for new

listeners to discover the show.

And if you haven't already done, so don't forget to hit the subscribe button.

So you never miss another episode.

If you want to connect with me, you can do that on most social media platforms,

just search for at Mr. John Clayton.

The best place to connect with me online, though is on LinkedIn.

You can find a link to my profile in the show notes.

Remember.

Running your architecture business.

Doesn't have to be hard and you don't need to do it alone.

This is architecture business club.