Good morning, Chloe. Thank you for joining us at Blueprints. Why don't you introduce

yourself again, even though we just did that.

My name is Chloe Brown. I am a 32 year old policy analyst living in the

City of Toronto. And yeah, I'm running for mayor because I'm sick and tired

of being sick and tired. I've started at City Hall as an unpaid intern in

2014. And as we look to 2024, it's been 10 years since the housing crisis,

10 years since the unpaid intern crisis. And I want solutions now. So that's

really who I am and it really defines why I do this because I love Toronto.

There's a million places I could be, but I choose to be here because of the

value of being around the world in one city.

This isn't your first go at Toronto Mayor, is it? Like you talked about this being

deja vu. We're not that far out from a really grueling campaign, which, I'll be

fair, we did

Thank

a

you.

short special on our mayoral prospects, and we overlooked your campaign in our discussions,

and our audience made sure to check us on that. One of the things that impressed

them the most about your pre- Yeah, no, they- They let us have it when we need

to. One of the things that impressed them about your campaign was the amount of

votes you were able to secure with a modest budget, right? It's not easy for grassroots

to raise funds. There's no judgment there, but what you were able to do with those

funds, you came in third place.

Thank you.

Are you building on that? Like, did that energize you? Were you hopeful with your

performance, your results?

To be honest, yeah, it was really exciting to see how it turned out for a dollar

amount. I think in the end, it came up to 20 cents per vote based on the entirety

of the budget. So yeah, it's very unheard of in the world of political science

and public administration to get such a big turnout. But In the scale of

my career, it's like I've always worked for non-profits, schools. I've worked

with marginalized people. You often get a small budget to make huge impact

with. So that's why the message was directly to the working class, because

that's who I serve as a public administrator. I've helped people move from

EI to Ontario Works to ODSP. I've helped them move through a variety of

government systems in order for them to maintain a job. maintain their education.

And this is where I was able to really target the largest amount of users,

because the people that are being affected by the lack of local democracy isn't

the executives, the senior managers, it's the workers. And we see this, I see this

as a policy analyst, when you look at the wage discrepancy between the executive

who's the corporate strategist and then the operator who actually works the

machine. And this... imbalance really speaks to me from not just a political

lens, but it speaks to me as a worker. I'm someone who plugs in every day

at an eight hour a day job. And while I'm comfortable earning like that $66,000

on paper, it's like by the time my bills come out, my student loans, all these

other things, it's like, am I really making $66,000? And that's really the

underlying fear that all of us universally are feeling right now. So speaking

to universal feelings as opposed to political identity is what I do at my job

and that's what made me successful. So yeah, I'm building off of it, but I'm also

not in the way that, yeah, I'm still speaking to the working class. That hasn't

changed and it shouldn't change because that is who's deeply affected by this

lack of leadership. That explains it.

You say you were... yeah, no, we feel that. You talked about being sick of being

sick of it, right? There's a lot of folks in the city of Toronto just completely

exasperated, not just by council, but this campaign already.

Mm-hmm.

A lot of stuff being thrown around that's really not relevant, a lot of fear-mongering

being used by your opponents. What's it like wading into it? It seems, feels like

a different campaign this time around.

Thank you.

Are you feeling that?

No. I know that sounds strange,

This

but...

feels exactly like, did you ever stop campaigning then?

No, and that's where people kind of underestimate my experience in local politics.

I started with Pam McConnell. And at the time in 2014, Pam McConnell was

overseeing the Pan Am games, the Regent Park development, the Union Station

revitalization, the Burkese Park revitalization with the dog fountain. So it's

like, I was in city council for months watching the current cast of candidates

do their thing. And... That's why I'm not intimidated by them. I used to

do research to provide recommendations to them about youth issues when I was a youth.

And I've deputed in front of them. I've organized workshops for them to

talk to youth. I've put my blood, sweat, and tears into youth equity during my

20s only to become an adult. And this same cast of clowns only have consensus

on advancing poverty. They've done nothing to reduce it. They've only advanced

it. And that's why I can... really be on this stage and not really be intimidated

by their titles or anything that they do because I've seen them work and they

have no work product to show for it. Like respectfully, Josh Matlow's been

at council since 2010. What is he going to do differently that he wasn't doing

now? And this is where I question any of them because when the time for courage

showed itself, when John Toy... ran again for a third time despite saying he

would only run twice. All of them were very comfortable to maintain their

path, which was to run for council, to continue at their job, whatever it was.

And now that John is gone, all of a sudden they have courage. And that shows

me that all of them were comfortable with the status quo. No matter what left or

right side they claim, they were all very comfortable with John. providing them

a stage for their theatrics, because that's exactly what happens at City

Council. And yeah, that's why I'm running, because to be honest, like, is

their job even real? They have no performance metrics.

Hehehe

They run on the basis of a popularity contest, and then they get into their job,

and they don't know the first thing about democratic governance, which is

everyone needs to be served, not just the people who lined your pocket during

the campaign. It's even the people who do not like you. It's the people you're

afraid of that you have to still make fair policy for. And if you don't have

the stomach or the cholesterol for it, find a different job. Go to the private

sector. And that's really what I'm calling them out for because no one is

holding them hostage to being a city counselor, to being mayor. Find a different

job because it's really unfair to the public that you continue to lie to them

and mislead them based on their fears. And that's what they've been doing for

the last decade. Oh, the criminals of social housing. Oh, the youth. It's this,

it's that. It's never their lack of leadership. It's always someone else's fault

that the city is decaying. But they chose leadership roles. Make it make sense.

No, it makes no sense. We're just as frustrated with what we've seen for generations.

And I think you're certainly not alone. I see a lot of sentiment around that same frustration

you described. And if you've had your shot, it's time to step out. You know, so for

anybody, there's a few frontrunners there, quite a few, that have had their time

in the sun and done nothing terribly spectacular. So you're certainly... strengthening

that argument for folks. People really are looking for something different and for

quite a while I would say that is your campaign. I want to ask you though about the

entrance of Olivia Chow. So she hasn't been on City Council right you can't perhaps

say those same things and my impression is that most progressives will recognize that

name. How did that make you feel when she put her hat in the race a little late in

the game? Was it a shock?

No.

Did it make you shift your campaign in any way?

No, because the NDP is a part of the establishment. There's champagne liberals,

champagne socialists. The right wing is just like, let's go back to the days

of slavery and feudalism because that was tight. And they're on their own island

and it's just like, I let them stay out there in the fantasy. But when it

comes to progress and the left, it's like, as a racialized person, please define

progress for me. Please define who the left is to you because... The left

as it exists south of Bloor is not the left that exists north of Eglinton.

And growing up in a Jamaican immigrant household, we don't use the words

left and right. You're socialist, you're capitalist, you are communist. There's

a larger vocabulary to use when it comes to speaking about politics. So when

the left's progressive showed up, it's just like, oh, cool. Like, Being the

left hand of capitalism is not the flex that you think it is. You know what

I mean? You're progressing what? You're all sitting at the same lunch table

and progressing what? You know what I mean? And this is where respectfully,

my parents never spoke well about the late, the child, like Olivia Chow, Jack

Layton. They see them as people who had professional jobs, taking up social

housing. That's how they're spoken about in my community. So it's like. left progress

for who? Like who are you representing except downtown? And this is where the left

constantly loses the suburbs because it's like you only speak to downtown

urbanism and when it comes to the suburbs you run through our neighborhoods

during campaign seasons. We never see you. So who is Olivia Chow to me? You know

what I mean? Like respectfully who is Olivia Chow to me as a

that never saw the NDP. You know what I mean? They only come around during election

season and this is why Doug Ford was able to sweep the suburbs because they're

champagne socialist. Their politics? Let's be honest, like their politics haven't

advanced labor laws. They're still doing these piecemeal negotiations and

this is why teachers and nurses and ECE workers are not getting fair wages

because they're still just the left hand of capitalism. And this is where

I have to be honest, I'm politically agnostic. I hold no membership to any political

party because they're all equally disappointing. If you want my vote, fight for

it.

So partisan-wise, you don't belong to a party, but you did mention some labels

that are gonna perk our ears up. Would you consider yourself a socialist?

No, not really. Like, I read socialist text, I read communist text, I read

all the political ideology, but to be honest, like, my identity is politicized.

I personally am not a political person. I am someone who is a systems thinker.

I'm a troubleshooter. I look at problems. I don't care what side of the

spectrum they come to me from. I look at people's values because the truth

is there are liberals who have very unethical policies because they don't

talk to people. So it's like, I don't hinge myself to any political ideology.

I'm just a people person and... maybe that is rooted in socialism, but it's

like the reality of my history is not the same as people that grew up like

being Irish in North America or being English in North America. And yeah,

it's complex because it's like, I'm a little liberal about some things, I'm

socialist about some things, I can be conservative about capital punishment,

especially when it's... especially heinous crime, like law and order says. And

that's the thing, it's just my political beliefs are on a case by case basis.

And when it comes to dealing with people, you have no idea why they... adopt

certain political identities. So to stop myself from participating in prejudice,

I don't identify as anything. I just support the most vulnerable person in

the room because that's the most ethical and right thing to do. And that's always

how I've been treated where it's like when I felt small, it was someone stepping

out of themselves to welcome me that was the right thing to do. And I've

never asked

Mm-hmm.

someone like, Oh, what are your political beliefs and why are you doing this?

No, they just kindness is free. And I respect people who show kindness, not

just being nice because nice is gift wrapping. Like, do you sacrifice your

time? Do you teach people? I look at your actions because labels are superfluous.

You know what I mean? Like, I could, there's a lot of nice people that are

narcissists. And that's the problem with politics. A lot of us get wrapped up in

like, oh, he dresses nice. He talks nice, his hair is nice. And then it's

like, okay, like. Do you know the movie American Psycho? Christian Bale showed

how nice people can hide very violent thoughts. And that's why it's like

I push people to not just be a political label, to justify to me why you

choose to identify with this. Because the truth is, not a lot of people have

political identities. It's the politicians that give them to people.

Mm-hmm. One thing that you said that resonated with me about

how, you know, these parties, they don't show up in the suburbs

outside of electoral seasons, right? And that's something like,

you know, we talk a lot about, which is one of the problems with

these partisan spaces is, you know, the focus on elections. And obviously,

like, you're you've chosen to like participate in in electoral

politics and And we know how flawed the municipal elections

are, even though they claim to be these nonpartisan spaces.

We know that, you know, the big parties, they have their favorites

and that it is a bit of a rigged game in that sense, because

it's not equal footing. And we know about how much control developer

money has and everything. And so I guess I want to ask you about, like,

what should be happening outside of those campaigns? You know, what

is... work that needs to happen you know after July when I forget

the day of the election

June 26.

in July something June 20 see not even July

Yeah.

uh June 26th you know after June 26th you know something some

we'll have a new mayor and a lot of the problems will still

be there and with all likelihood we won't get the change that

we need and there'll be a lot of fighting so I just like in from

your

So

You know?

I think one of the big things that we as a collective society are going through

is the end of the project. And it's like, yeah, we are at the end of the consumerism

project, the mass production project. And a lot of us need to realize what's

next is participatory government, which means you're going to have to find time

to meet up with your neighbors and figure out how your tax dollars can fix

your neighborhood. This is called participatory budgeting. It happens in Brazil,

parts of America. And Toronto Community Housing actually did this for a long

number of years until the executive board took that power away from them. And it's

essentially like figuring out like, if we have this much rent, what can we

do to fix the foyer? What can we do to have a better chain of contractors

doing maintenance on the building? Like we have to become more active shareholders.

in our own lives. And I think this is where the pandemic made us realize

it's like how much control do you actually have over your time in your life

if you're commuting for two hours to get to a job that's eight hours and then

you have to commute for another two like 12 hours of your day is gone. And

it also made people realize that you can't just be a passive family member because

like during the pandemic my stepfather passed and just trying to step into his shoes

was one of the like emotionally draining things that I experienced because

it's like, I didn't realize how many people depended on my father for just

like emotional support. My stepdad was a person that calls you every week. He

looked after my niece and nephew while all of us as kids worked. Do you know

what I mean? And when he died, I had to step in and provide childcare for

my sister who has two kids and as much as auntie loves them, auntie is not

built for early childhood education. So this is where it's like, we need to agree

that we have to pay early childhood education workers a fair wage. No more like

discussion, no more minimum wage conversation. They need a living wage because

not everyone is meant to take care and educate children as much as we love

them. They're just people that are better at it and they're more like involved

in it. And then it's also like we have to hold the government accountable

because it's like they're your accountant. They are your. planner, they're

your architect, they have a very specific role and we should be taking one day

out of the week to call them. Just what are you up to? I sent in my taxes,

what did you do with it? Send me an invoice. We have to become their coworkers

instead of giving them free reign over our checkbook. Like we are not the bank

of mom and dad. We are your coworker. If you don't show up for work, there will be

consequences. And this is where the active... shareholder has to come out because

it's like I won't be the person to transition us from capitalism but these

next three years will be crucial in figuring out like the future ahead because

now that we've been exposed to remote work now that we've seen how the government

can provide universal access to like financial support we cannot go back

and this is the this is the rock in the hard place lowest level of democracy,

which is our streets. If we can't control them, we have no hopes of changing

the federal government's mind. So it's like, we really have to get involved

in the local government, your local neighborhood council, you need to become

more involved with your neighbors because this is why these politicians use the

Merrill's race as a springboard instead of a platform or a dinner table to

bring more people around. And I will say, look at the race between Anthony

Peruzza and Giorgio Mammoliti. They're only sticking in that area because

they're trying to be the person to replace Judy Sagro, who is the Liberal MP

of that spot right now. A lot of these candidates are using the mayoral's

race to like feel out their chances for the Liberal race on December 2nd. They're

not serious about being a part of the city. They're doing this as a... corporate

ladder climb and we, we as their neighbors, we as the workers who serve them

food need to call them out regularly. Like, I hate to say this, but Doug Ford shouldn't

be able to eat comfortably in the province of Ontario until he funds education,

healthcare, etc. Because the truth is, Doug works for me. I don't care if

the city of Toronto is a creature of the province, Doug Ford collects a paycheck

from my hard work. And as a worker, he does not get to leave his home until he

fixed his things because he chose this role. He could have ruined his father's

business at Deco labels, but he chose to come into an arena where I'm paying

good money. And this is where we like, you need to become a little bit of

a loan shark with these guys because it's like the developers are loan sharks

with them and they gave away the green belt. How much more should six million

people? be activated and mobilize against what, a hundred people at Queens Park?

Who are they to us? You work for me, despite me earning my little salary,

you take taxes that then allow you to live this lavish lifestyle and have

no performance metrics? No. So this is where, like, even if I don't win, you

guys have to become little Chloe's, little nuisances, and actually like... demand

better for yourself because asking your oppressor or your abuser to treat you

better is insanity. And that's exactly the collective fever dream that we're

stuck in where it's like, oh if we ask Doug and like appeal to his humanity

he won't treat us badly. He cut council, he's selling the greenbelt. Like how

much more are you gonna beg this man to treat you nicely? Go to the feds. There's

always a

LEP

higher authority. There's always a bigger fish. Go to that, wrap, dug it up

in lawsuits until the next election, because who is Douglas Ford to six, like to

us? Who is he? You know?

Let me ask you about that, exactly what you're talking about there, but in your

role as mayor, right? You have to deal with these folks. Not only do you have to go

to the feds, the city of Toronto is a complete creature of the province, beholden

to them to a very big degree. We've heard what you think about Doug Ford. The sentiments

are shared here, obviously. You know, we talk about disruption. But as mayor... How

would you leverage that relationship? And how should the Toronto mayor be using that

relationship that they have to make sure Toronto gets what they deserve, the funding

that they deserve and whatnot? What is an ideal relationship for you there? Because

right now they are going hat in hand and asking as kindly as possible and getting

nothing in return, right? So how do you step that up a little bit?

you act like an actual business instead of a beggar. And that is essentially

what these politicians have been doing. They just go begging with no plan. Just

give me money because I'm Toronto. No. You know what I mean? I've never seen such

a pathetic group come to a bank with no plan and just like give me money because

vibes, you know? And this is where, as a policy analyst, I'm aware of administrative

laws. I'm aware of what... policy mechanisms are available to me and I know how

to use them. These other candidates don't because all they're used to is just begging

each other for money like rich people beg each other for money at fundraisers.

They don't work. And this is where I have plans to essentially go to the

feds and go above Doug because even Doug has to ask the feds for money and

we saw with the healthcare transfers that the feds are willing to claw them back.

when the province does not fulfill the desired outcomes of the federal government.

So this is where I'm using my knowledge of policy to say like, hey, as the

country's largest city, if I can build programs and services to help the

federal government reach its outcomes, why do you need to fund Doug when

you can fund me? And this happens because there are grants and loans that municipalities

can apply for. but you don't have a bunch of grant writers. So how are you

surprised that they're not writing to the feds to get this money or they don't

have plans? Like they, it's really frustrating, but it's like, yeah, what you

see these politicians doing with the city's broke, the city's broke, it's not

broke. The city has reserves that are tied up in projects like the Gardner.

They have money that's reserved for policing. It's really about the allocation

and the priorities of council that's making us appear broke. But if you're

a policy analyst, you know the city has money. And this is why other levels

of government are not giving it to the City of Toronto. Because you can't

continue to cry poor and have billions in reserves in deferred revenue. And

your plans are not in line with the country's priorities. And This is where

I challenge other people to realize, like, where do you think the Ontario and the

Canadian money comes from? It's still our money, you know? And if other levels

of government don't want to give it to the local council, it's because they've

been irresponsible with it. So this is why my platform's so thick, because

those are all the plans that I'm taking to the feds. Each and every one

of them fulfills one of the federal government's missions, whether it's climate

change, agricultural technology. like affordable housing, all of these programs

are aligned to a federal ministry, the Canadian Housing and Mortgage Corporation.

And this is where having a plan, having a plan is one of like the easiest things

for me to do because it's like, I'm an analyst, I go through government reports

all the time, I know what the feds are looking for, I know what it takes

to deliver upon these things, and I actually have the grit to deliver, not

city council because all they do is refer things back to staff. They don't

do research, they're not active counselors, they're very passive actors. So

it's really up to me to raise the bar, not just for my fellow counselors,

but for like the MPs and the MPPs because they also live here too. And this

is where my approach is, I don't wanna say it's bullying, but it's like raise

the bar for all of them. There's all levels of government. living in this city,

playing theater, and they're not using the levers of policy to advance democracy.

It's really up to us to stop outsourcing our civic responsibility to political

leaders. We have to take responsibility for all these rights that we demand that we

have. Like, okay, housing is a human right, great. What responsibility have

you taken for making sure your neighbor has access to housing? You know what

I mean? And this is where, like I have to say it's hard for me, but I have

to call out people who go camping because it's like, you go camping in a rural

man's backyard and it's fine, but there are homeless people in this city

and you want to evict them from the park for camping? The same thing that you're

doing in Algonquin or one of the national parks, like let's be real. We

wouldn't have encampments if homeowners associations and residents associations

weren't biased against apartments and who comes from apartments, which is people

like me. And this is where we really need to confront one another about with

all these rights that you claim, what responsibility have you taken on to protect

these rights? Because if you continue to leave it up to 25 people to defend

the rights of millions, you're not gonna get it. You're not gonna get what

you want. You know what I mean? Because... these 25 people keep asking Tom,

Dick, and Harry what's wrong. If you keep asking Tom, Dick, and Harry what

the problem is, you'll get Tom, Dick, and Harry solutions each and every time.

And that's where you see this over-representation of executive opinions in

working class programs. The working class does not inform policy. And it's because,

yes, we're working two or three jobs, but then we're also the ones arguing

about, oh, the prices are going up because minimum wage is going up. No, no,

no, no, darling. The price is going up because the executives want greater

share of the profits. How can you, and this is where I get frustrated with

even the left because it's like, we are arguing about whether or not a man should

earn $16 an hour knowing that that's not feasible for surviving. No one wants

to talk about the overpayment of executives or the fact that the economy

has stalled because executive leadership, all they do is eat up small companies.

There's no competitive economy here. There's three guys in a trench coat for

everything. Telecoms, groceries.

I've got to say I disagree with that sentiment on the left. I mean, we are constantly

talking about the overpayment of CEOs and the inflation,

what

and

are

unfortunately

we doing

they've

about it?

coined the term greedflation. But I think Santiago, you were looking to ask a question

there.

Bye.

Well, I guess what I, that actually has to do with, I guess, what

you just, the comments you just made, Chloe, what are we doing about

it? Right. And I guess I want to ask is where is that disconnect

coming from? Because, you know, one thing that I talk a lot about

is the fact that all of our essential goods and services are

in shambles right now, like every single thing that people need

is in horrible conditions. And so. then you look at politics and you look

at the fact that, you know, in France, they're in this, they've

been in the streets for months now. I don't even know how long

it's been over pensions getting raised two years, but here there's

complete inaction as this has happened. You know, Jessa has the

Ford tracker where she's been, you know, keeping track of every

single horrible thing that Ford has done because it is impossible

to keep track of it all

Thank

because

you.

it's just so overwhelming. And so, Yeah, we know that we need we need

to be doing stuff. Why is that not happening? And how can we get

to the point where people are actually holding these leaders accountable

and why? Like, and I guess like, is that going to come from from

electoral? Is that going to come on the streets? And how do we

even make that happen on the streets? Like, we know we need it, but

how do we get it?

So this is where, like I've been working with tenants associations to get them

ready to register as nonprofits so that they can hold land as community land

trust groups. And these actions are happening in small pockets. If you look

at Parkdale, they pushed Gord Perks

Yeah.

to get the money to secure 80, like to secure properties. They have up to

85 now. And this is where we really need to come out of our shell for the

right occasions. Because... I remember being a kid in 2012 and the thing

was like, we're going to find Kony who was like this African warlord and

it started on Twitter and I'm just like, how do we have the audacity to be

looking at other people's countries talking about we're going to find this person?

Meanwhile, like the biggest offender is your counselor. So it's like, we really

have to think about like, how do you use this phone? How are you using this

phone to organize your friends to bring down the cost of housing? bring down

the cost of groceries, Wi-Fi, because these things are possible. It's really

about us coming together and instead of like using that money to go to that

restaurant, we use it to come together and agitate. And this is where like,

I'm not, I don't know how to describe it, but it's like, yes, I'm a little

bit of a shit disturber and I like to push people to re-imagine their possibilities.

So it's like, yeah, for $200. and 25 signatures, I got on a platform and

I shook an old man who was the symbol of the status quo. And it wasn't because

I wanted to win, it's because it was larger than that. John Tory, to me,

was a symbol of the old guard in every boardroom across Toronto. And someone

had to ask him, what are you doing with my money, with all this management

experience, all these friends you have? you are actually doing your job because

I was really at my wits end. I was looking at leaving the country, applying

for visas, and it's like, why? Because I can't afford housing in the country

that I'm born in. I refuse to be run out by downtown Abbeys, so it's like,

this is the way that I fight it. And I would encourage more people to not

think of fighting as a bad thing or a violent thing, but it's like, you're right.

You have to fight for your right to party. Beastie Boys say, and that's really

where I try to make people realize, like, you have a lot more power than you think.

Look at how Gen Z destroys brands regularly. Cancel culture. If you get enough

people together and you can generate enough, like, viral activity, that's a beacon.

And it's more important to send up a beacon than it is to win. quote unquote,

because the beacon will at least let people know that, hey, I'm lost and I'm

looking to be found. And that's where the vulnerability part of social media

can really work in our favor, where it's like more of us need to be honest

about the fact that, like, yeah, I make X amount of money and I'm still like

afraid that I have to go to the food bank. I make X amount of dollars. But

by the time I pay my rent and I pay for medication for my disabled child,

I have to go to the food bank. You know what I mean? We don't know how deeply

poverty runs in our communities because a lot of us are using social media

to flex and to be like, look what I have, look how wonderful my life is.

It's like, show me tears. You know what I mean? Show me the tears that I

know you have because it's like, me as a policy analyst, I have to get a lot

of my information now from social media and news stories because people don't

answer surveys like they used to. So it's like, I'm hearing one thing from

the public, but then my reports say differently, and this is why I have to

run, because it's like the information is no longer making sense to me. Because I

have friends that are going through the training programs, that are doing all the

right things, and the outcomes are not amounting to what has been promised

to them. And I find that like the most frustrating thing about being an advocate

for marginalized people. Because you have... It builds up nihilism. When people

don't see all their hard work amounting to something, it builds up hopelessness,

it builds up detachment inside of them, and this is the mental health crisis

that we're seeing right now. People have put their hopes and dreams in this

city and have been rewarded nothing. They've been rewarded with evictions. They've

been awarded with food insecurity, and this is where we really need to come together

and ask, like, why doesn't my building's lobby grow food? There's vertical

and like hydroponic

Don't

gardens.

start, don't start Santiago, I know I can see it, he's gonna start talking about

vertical greenhouses.

No,

Chloe,

let's

That's

do that.

a...

how did you

Let's

do this?

go

How

crazy.

did we come this full circle? Every episode.

We

Ow.

have the

That

technology

that did

now. We

Yeah

have the technology. We see these empty lots all around our communities, empty

storefronts. You mean to tell me we can't challenge Loblaws? You know what

I mean?

Uh...

Oh,

When

Santiago

it comes

That...

to...

Eh... Heh...

is there for that,

Heh...

Chloe. He

Heh... That

is

is very

planning

much.

it already. He will call you for sure. I'm curious, though. You've got a lot of heat

for John Tory, rightfully so. No one's judging, Chloe. Um, and some of these counselors

running against you. Have you got to debate them? Like, was there a... I'm sorry,

I don't live in Toronto. So

Yeah.

was there a debate last time? Like, no.

There were two

No.

debates with John Tory last time. I participated in nine in total with other

candidates. So it's like, yeah, by the time I got to meet John, it was like,

I've done six of these, just roll out the seventh one. And honestly, I was

at City, I was an intern in 2014 when John first got in. I've met John Tory

multiple times. I was in a meeting with John Tory when Black Lives Matters took

over the police station. And this is actually when I decided I wouldn't

do politics because he brought us into this meeting at 8 a.m. and was like,

how do I deal with these people? And I'm like, John, do you know I'm one of

those people? You really called me into this meeting as like a 60 year old

man and you've been around like these people all your life and you still don't

know what to do. And

Did

that's

you

the

get

thing.

to

It's

say

like...

that to him though? Like that was my question. Like, have you got to say to these

people, like, what are

Yeah.

you doing with my money? Like, you, you know, you're the wonkiest of all the candidates

and that is a policy wonk, right? That's not a...

they force me to become a wonk. And that's the thing,

Yeah,

that's what people don't understand.

but what a great tool in a debate, right? Like if you just need to be able to

stand next to these folks and actually talk about some of these policies, because

that's where you'd be real fi- not that you're not fire on your own, but I would

love to see that because,

Well,

you know, just

this

like

is...

your approach and how you feel about them. I mean, I'd tune in for that with popcorn

and everything.

Well, this is why the polls are leaving me out, because a lot of these debates

rely on polling data. If you leave my name out of it, of course I'm not

gonna show up on the polls as like a top five candidate to invite to debates,

because yeah, I will surgically eviscerate each and every one of them, because

I've deputed to each and every one of them. I've deputed to Mark Saunders,

Josh Matlow, Anna Bailout. Like, name a person on that stage and I can tell

you a relationship that I've had with this person through the youth equity

strategy, the Toronto Strong Neighborhood strategy, anti-poverty reduction.

I was at City Hall from 2014 to 2016 and it was like those two years made

me realize I never wanted to work directly with politicians as an EA, a

constituent assistant, because like they're not. They, I'm not saying all

of them, but it's really hard for me to do that frontline work with no solutions.

I don't like telling people like, oh, I'm so sorry, like I can't do anything

knowing that I could do something, you know? And that's why I'm running because

it's like I am no one's secretary anymore. Like I'm either

Hmph.

going to give you solutions straight up or not give you solutions at all because

I'm tired of being complicit of bad government. You know what I mean? Like

as a policy

Oh, I know

analyst,

what you mean.

it's, yeah, you work

And we've

for

heard

the government.

from a lot of LA's and constituent assistants, it's a tough slog, especially for

someone who has a vision of something better. Quite often, people go into those real

pie-eyed and end up very jaded.

Yeah.

So I don't blame you for not wanting to play that role anymore. And I guess you've

kind of already answered it, but you know, in a discussion that we had on our discord,

at one point I said, not everybody runs to win. Right? Like not everybody, like

most people have a realistic expectation of money and politics and outcomes and, but

that doesn't deter everyone. Right?

Mm-hmm.

Not everyone's a career politician and quite a- few times in this interview you

said like, and that's when I realized I'd never do politics. And that's when I realized,

you know, you seem quite jaded about politics and so are we, right? Like it's, it's

totally justified,

Yeah.

but you're still running for a

Yes.

really big in a really big race with a huge profile taking a lot of time out of

your life.

That... are you running to win?

I'm running to win and also advance democracy because yeah, it's people say it's

the worst system but like have you tried authoritarian governments? You know

what I mean? And I'd rather fight for democracy than win in the traditional sense

but it's like, yes, I'm running to win because God knows like I cannot continue

in the way that things are. but it's more important for me to raise the bar

of political discourse because I cannot continue with this lazy conversation

of left wing, right wing. It's the same bird. Please stop trying to like make

me believe it's a different bird. We need to actually advance democracy because

we have seen how democracy is eroding and what is on the other side of democracy,

just look south of the border. I do. not have the cholesterol for American

style politics. And I don't believe a lot of us have that cholesterol for it because

the truth is the only way that our society works is this agreement that democracy

is better than the alternative. And that's what makes all these culturally

diverse people live in this place because the truth is, Toronto is one of those

few places where you'll meet people from warring countries. who do not care

about the war in their country. They're just happy to be here and have the

opportunity to live amongst each other. And I say this like having friends from

India, Pakistan, like Palestine, Israel, like we can all sit together and talk

about how messed up our countries are and still be like, I want to advance democracy

here so that when people are ready to come here, they are accepted. And

that to me is worth, that is like the hill that I am willing to die on.

to not be morbid, but it's like, yeah, that's why I stay in Toronto because

it's like, this is one of the few democracies that works in the entire world.

And to me, that's sacred because democracy has been a project that has been

changed and modified over like 200 years. And here I am still holding onto

it, like being able to protect it. And I want to be able to pass that on to

my niece and nephew because under democracy, no one is above the law. under democracy,

there are no monarchies. Under democracy, everyone is granted dignity, equality,

and freedom. And for me, it's like that's bigger than the mayor's office.

It's bigger than Justin Trudeau or Doug Ford. Like for democracy to work, all

of us have to once again feel that we are an active city builder, an active

policymaker, because that is what has advanced my right to get education.

And I say that in the context of the civil rights movement where it's like,

I grew up with images of little girls walking to school across seas of hateful

people. And if they didn't do that because they believed I had a fair, like

I deserve fair access to education, what like, I couldn't be here having this conversation.

So it's like, this is my sacred duty and it's. It's not about title for me

because the mayor's office is just, it's just a title in office. If me, you

and Santiago do not punch in for our jobs, what is there to rule over? What

money is there to debate about? It really needs us to get back into the driver's

seat of our own destiny, as opposed to outsourcing it to the corporation, outsourcing

it to your local representative. We have to take control. of ourselves, what

happens in our neighborhoods, and actually become active planners of the

future. Because like when you were speaking, I was speaking to someone about

AI today. And it's like, AI is not the threat that you think it is. It's the

people that are going to use AI to replace humans without thinking about

it as a tool, like a screwdriver in a toolkit. Because that's all AI should

be seen as. It's like... It's a sonic screwdriver, if you're into Doctor

Who. But it's just a tool in the toolkit. And when people decide to use

technology to replace humanity, that's when you start having trouble because

you can't replace creativity with like a bunch of generated AI images because

the AI needed photos from human beings in order to build. it's intelligence

and this is where yeah, 40 work weeks, remote work, like all that's really

important because we need time back to be active, like active at our jobs

of being family members, active at our jobs of being neighbors, like we need

that time back and the technology is here to actually give us this time. So yes,

this is where I say people need to go to their unions, their pension funds

and ask them why aren't we building housing to bring down my cost of rent? Why

aren't we pushing the government to rezone this specific area so we can have

that vertical garden and those hydroponic gardens in my building? When it

comes to the healthcare unions, why are we not building workforce housing with

residential housing so healthcare workers can be doing more mobile and accessible

forms of healthcare and social services? These things are in our control.

It's just really about us confronting leadership about why aren't my assets working

for me? Because it's not just enough to pay my, like I'm a part of Opsu,

it's not just enough for me to just give Opsu my dues for legal representation.

The cost of living has gone up and it should be the union's responsibility

to figure out how can we make our money work for our workers outside of legal

representation. It's providing housing, it's providing food, it's also like,

and I say this, but when we think about the internet in the subway, We own the

cables and we keep outsourcing the maintenance of the fiber optic network

to Rogers to be AI when we could be owning our own broadband network. We could

be... We could be creating more independent internet service providers to bring

down another cost of a good service. So it's really about municipal stewardship,

municipal ownership of lands, data, and infrastructure, and really just demanding

a fair seat at the table with a plate of food, because just having a seat

at the table is not enough now. If you're just staring at an empty plate, are

you really a guest here or are you just an observer of a feast? So yeah, that's

where I hope that kind of

I

touches

hear you.

on everything, but it's like, we just need to be shareholders the way that

like, you're a shareholder of pot stock or, you know, a shoe company. So

yeah, hope that answers it.

And then some. Yeah. Santiago, did you have any questions as we kind of get in

it? I mean, I do, but you've

Uh,

been quiet.

you know, I'll leave it to you because I don't know how to phrase

all of the questions that I have right now.

Thank

Okay,

you.

fair enough. Fair enough. I'm gonna get back to your platform a little bit and

At one point you talked about you know, the money being there and no doubt the city

of Toronto has a ginormous budget we just did an episode on how police funding and

and Doug Ford's new police pipeline, but in that we discovered that The city of

Toronto spends 33 million dollars a day on policing and I read through your platform,

you don't really definitively say one way or another, but you do talk about investments

that would be needed to better interact with the community, right? As replacing them

as crisis responders and whatnot.

Mm-hmm.

Will you work to defund the police so that the funding is there for all of these

other projects that we're talking about?

So that's the Public Health and Safety Commission that I'm looking at. So when

you look at the organizational of the structure of the city, there are agencies,

boards, corporations, and then there's divisions that work within the city

to deliver programs. The agencies, boards, and committees, corporations are run

by an executive council that's independent of city council. And that's why

I'm creating these commissions to get rid of those executive boards and just

reset revenues. based on the demands put on those commissions. And this

is where, yes, it sounds like I'm defunding the police, but I would then

reframe the question as to why it takes $1.3 billion to protect 3 million

people. Like, is that really an efficient use of our dollars? If, and this

is where like $1.3 billion would get you a security guard. It's for every person.

So it's like, instead of looking at policing, from like law enforcement strictly,

it's like we do have to acknowledge that there's a public safety angle around policing

that we need to fully separate out of policing. And this is where, yes, I'm

taking money out of the militarized form of policing to fund crisis workers. Because

I believe it's up to 85% of calls received by the police are not emergency calls.

They're like social calls, mental health calls, they're non-emergency calls from

seniors. So we really need to separate that and just give the money to the

public safety and healthcare portion of it. So yes, I'm planning to start

the reduction up to like 200 million to get crisis workers their own department

where they can just strictly look at how can we evolve public safety. and

get more communities involved in that. Because the truth is, when I was growing

up, I knew people that were schizophrenic. I knew that when they were having an episode

by their behavior, and I knew who to call when that was happening. And it's

usually the parent of that person. That split second with understanding if someone's

going through a mental health crisis versus seeing something as an escalating

violent incident can save someone's life. And this is where I want to put money

in public health. to provide education to communities, to work with the

mobile crisis workers to deliver these outcomes. So I can't say off the top

of my head how this money will be divided, but I would like to put 200 million

directly into mobile crisis workers. So that would reduce the policing budget to

1.1 and then just keep going from there. Because the truth is, all I want

police to do is deal with like investigative and tactical operations. which

is like the car thefts. It's the, it's like the gang violence. And even

then it's just like, I'm trying to bring the courts and policing services closer

together because there's diversion opportunities, there was restorative justice

opportunities, there's peacemaking opportunities that we could use to help divert

youth out of the jail system. But the systems need to be connected because

one of the... One of the things that people don't realize is that the City

of Toronto funds court services. If the court services were connected to public

health, it would be easier to refer people into healthcare programs when

they needed them. It would be easier to coordinate with community groups

to make sure that if someone is released back into the public, they're regularly

checking into these sites to get the care that they need. However, these

things don't happen because everything is separated. So it's like, this is where I'm

bringing the police into this commission to slowly pull out of their budget

to fund the public safety aspects of municipal services as opposed to law enforcement,

if that makes sense. Feel free to question me on it.

No, it makes sense. And the reason I asked is just because you do use the word

investment along with policing in your platform. So I wanted to give you the ability

to clarify because one, personally, I don't like to see those two words put together,

particularly after seeing what Toronto spends on policing. It's more than the public

health, transportation, childcare, and libraries combined. And I... know, for

me if I lived in the city of Toronto that would be a huge point for me as a voter,

not just because it's an issue that is important to me, but it also sends a message

of the kind of political strength and bravery at this point in today's conditions.

Because if you look at the Toronto Marrow Race, the people that are getting the

most amplification unfortunately are the ones that are driving home this law and

order. rhetoric and providing more police as the only solution. So it's important

that there's a candidate out there

Yeah.

that provides an alternative. Another

Market

one of your policy...

Sorry.

sorry, I know, I'm sure you have a lot to say on it, but we just don't have much

Yeah,

more time

go ahead, go ahead.

left and I definitely want to ask you about your housing first approach. So, you

know, without getting into too much... detail even though I know some audience members

would appreciate that. But what does that mean taking a housing first approach?

What does it mean in tangible policies at Toronto Council?

So when I think of Housing First, I think of Khalil Sivaraj, where it's like

he created those pods so that people would have privacy, a sense of dignity,

even if they were in a shelter situation. And this is where the shelter system

dramatically needs to be redesigned to give people a sense of dignity, equality,

and freedom despite the fact that they're in an emergency situation or they're

fleeing violence. And this is where the Housing First mission is not only

just redesign shelters, but it's also make better emergency shelters across

the city. Because the truth is the shelter system is full because it's not

necessarily safe for people that are homeless. So we need to have better housing

options such as like sleeping pods, micro homes and have them in areas that

are staffed with social workers, healthcare workers, and a variety of people

that can help them transition. I am To be honest, I have friends that are

currently in relationships because there's not enough housing. If there was a

short-term or mid-term housing solution that they could be using to save their

money so that they can transition back into back into independent life, that

would be ideal. And this is where I'm trying to invest in more purpose-built

apartment rentals through the Community Land Trust, because the truth is,

tenants associations need to start investing in housing. for more neighbors

and we need to prevent homelessness from demolitions, amateur evictions, and a

variety of things, but that won't happen immediately. So how do we then transform

existing spaces? So it's like, I'm thinking abandoned buildings. You can start

refurbishing them for these midterm and short-term solutions. It's really about

how we approach modular housing. and also just modular design because we live

in a time where you can fold walls and create more spaces. Modular design

is a very, it's a very mobile and agile form of changing rooms to accommodate

trauma-informed design for creating privacy, et cetera. My plan is really just

getting more midterm housing solutions, purpose-built rental, and also just

getting more. communities involved in being nonprofit developers. Because the

problem that we have with the housing crisis is a lack of affordable land.

We need to take over more lands that haven't been paying their property taxes.

The city of Toronto just released a list of like 25 properties that have taxes

up to like over $500,000 in arrears. Those

commercial

properties

properties.

could be private properties, yes, that haven't been paying their property

taxes. and the city gives them grace to like run up their bills up to like

half a million dollars, we could be transforming these lands into forms of housing.

We could be building on top of transit stations. We could be building in a

lot more places if we were focused on building purpose-built rentals because that's

the missing middle right now. It's not condos or like, you know, those cute

multiplexes. It's the fact that there's not enough apartments built for long

term. tenancies and until we can get those built, I still need to figure

out like how do I help people that are sleeping on the TTC, in the parks,

in the hospitals, people that are revolving in and out of jail because that's

a form of stabilized shelter because there's no apartments. So yeah, it's

a multi-pronged plan, but it has to start with helping the disabled because

that's who's making up the the majority of the homeless population right now.

And if we can't build the shelters to be trauma-informed, disability-inclusive

to accommodate them now, how are we gonna make sure that they stay in the

apartments that we build later? So yeah, it's a ground up housing, looking

at not just like the single family home, but looking at something as small as

a sleeping pod that can be closed to give someone dignity, looking at a micro

home to then move them out of the shelter and then... from the micro home

to the apartment. So yeah, it's a lot, but I want more of us to be involved

in it because I'd rather have my taxes building apartments for people with

disabilities because I might become disabled one day. Like, you know what

I mean? So it's

We

really

all

about,

do.

yeah, it's really about us building nonprofit housing for each other ourselves

and getting involved. And it goes back to the active stakeholder role because

Parkdale has land trusts, they have 85 properties. It can be done, but will

you or will you not participate?

I didn't know they had 85. That's news to me. I know about the

Parkdale Community

It's

Land

85

Trust. I used to live

units,

in P-

I believe, in total, but they're buying up these properties with help from the

Multi-Unit Residential Acquisition Fund at the city level and the Housing Accelerator

Fund that's available at the federal government level. And it's really the

tenants pushing it and then pushing gourd perks. So the information's out there

on

Yeah.

the internet. Will you look for it? Will you go and push your counselor like

he's your H&R Block accountant that owes you money?

Well, I mean that right there, like that to me is a very good

example of something that we need a lot more of. I think one of

the problems that we see is, you know, Parkdale has their community

line trust, Kensington Market has a very similar thing as well. These

are communities that are kind of unique as far as Toronto goes.

Not all communities are as organized.

yet.

It's not the same everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess like What

do you do outside of those communities? How do you, how do you

start those kinds of projects? How do we make that happen? What

can we do?

That's like a whole new episode Santiago.

Yeah, that is a whole yeah, I guess

That's

that's

a

just

big

that's

question

just what

for

I think.

Chloe

Right?

man.

Well,

Yeah.

it's not

I just

that complicated because

that's what

like

I'm looking for. I guess.

Hahahaha

Yeah.

Parkdale answers your emails. Ask them. Ask them like, can we meet up? Can

you host something for my community? And this is where I don't know why Torontonians

are so afraid of each other. If you ask me something, I will send you like

a whole two page summary. Like I'm about that life. We, we live in a city

with some of the most academically driven people in the Western world. Nerd it

up with them. Take them out for coffee. Like we love to speak

I get-

about our habits.

I guess

So

really

sorry, go ahead.

what I didn't mention was kind of maybe like the assumption behind

my question, which was kind of this disconnect that we're seeing

where you know like you mentioned earlier you know like talking

to our friends, talking to people and that's one thing that I've been

thinking a lot about is how that That's something that people really

don't have, you know, I've, I've gone around Toronto. I've done my

fair share of organizing it. And the problem is just how disconnected

people are. And, and I know like none of, I don't have, I don't

have the answers and I don't expect like any one person to have

all the answers, but I just, I guess that that's where that

was coming from was just how do we replicate these things? Because

I, I, I don't, I don't know how to do it. in places that are

so disconnected and I guess That's one of the good things about

Being able to like have these campaigns and running for mayor's

is like showing people that Highlighting those those things that are

that need to be highlighted highlighting those victories highlighting what

actually works and Yeah, no, that's just

So,

where I was coming from there. I don't really have a question

yeah.

I guess to end it off but

Well, this

That's

time

just what's

around,

on my mind

this time around I'm using like my daytime to have these policy chats followed

by concerts in the evening. because I want people to realize like the things that

we're talking about, they trickle down into this, like your ability to party,

your ability to go out and actually enjoy yourself after having a tough conversation.

And yeah, this is where I'm really going a little different because it's like

I'm hosting events during Pride Week to talk about queer spaces, followed by

parties in the evening because queer spaces are disappearing. And I really

want to drive it. home to people that like this is what you're fighting for.

The ability to go out on these nights safely, the ability to enjoy yourself,

these are all political, you know what I mean? And our conversation during

Pride Week is like a village everywhere because church and young shouldn't

be the only place where queer people should feel safe. It should be the entire

city. Why isn't it like that? And this is where... I want people to have

these challenging conversations, but also follow it up with like, go out, you

know, like, take the ease off and remind yourself like this is what you're

fighting for, the right to be with your friends, the right to go out and

be safe. And that's where we demystify politics, because it's really not

just a bunch of old white philosophers that talked about the way the world should

be. It's you being alive right now. in spite of all the odds that were thrown

your way, in spite of all the circumstances that your family were given in

prior decades, you know what I mean? You are walking living, breathing politics.

Own what is yours. And that goes back to like my campaign where it's like Reclaim

Toronto, own what is yours, because a lot of people do not feel like they own their

own lives right now. What would it mean for you to feel ownership over your

life? And these are... philosophical questions that I tried to introduce into like,

you know, your basic conversation about did you see that HBO show? Because the

truth is art is there to encourage you to take stock of your own reality. And

we're exposed to art all the time. Do we ask each other our feelings about

it? No, because no one wants to be stupid or look that certain way but like

risk it, you know? Risk being vulnerable, risk being honest because the truth

is there's a bunch of idiots out here. being honest about the worst thoughts.

Like Tucker Carlson was just getting paid to think, like speak his worth's

Oh, I thought she

truth.

meant Brad Bradford.

I will leave Bradley squared out of this for today. This is where I really

challenge people to be honest with one another because I can't help you if

you're not honest that you're suffering. You know what I mean? And this is

where. we as the working class have to unlearn a lot of things because we

really internalize the fact that we don't wanna be seen as victims. And we internalize

these ideas of like, oh, it's a dog eat dog world out there when we've never

seen anything like that living in Canada. I've never seen a dog eat dog thing,

because why? We take care of our dogs. So we really have to challenge our

own perceived narratives of where we stand in. like the political reality, like,

are you as powerless as you think you are? Because I believe that. Look at me

now, you know, $200 and yelling at a senior later. And that's the thing. I

like, it's just another day for Chloe Brown, but it's meant a whole lot for

a bunch of people that I don't know. And that's me risking people knowing

like, yeah, I'm a weird wonky oddball, but like I love the people of Toronto.

And I'm willing to fight whoever comes up and threatens Toronto because I'm

like, you're not my kids, but like, I consider you all my kids, my brothers

and sisters. And you know, mom said, take care of you while she's out. And

that's really the attitude that I'm bringing to this where it's like, parents

have left us home alone. It's our job to hold down the fort. If you're not

about holding down the fort, go to your room, you know? And that's the attitude

I'm taking. And it feels so familiar to so many people. because I'm honest about

it. Like I'm your big little sister and I want what's best for you. And

the more I'm honest about that really strange feeling I feel inside, the more

people that come out to vote, the more progress moves forward, but I have

to be honest about it. So yeah, be raw and honest with your friends that like

you're struggling with mental health, your finances, that you're afraid that

your parents are sick and you won't be able to house them because do your

friends really know you? You know what I mean? Outside of partying with

you, do your friends really know you? Are they willing to go with you to your

counselor's office to talk about this issue? And that is the measure of friendship

that I have now, where it's like, my friends are like, Chloe, I want to knock

doors for you. I believe in you. And like, that is one of the purest forms of

friendship that I'm experiencing right now. And that's why I stay in Toronto,

because it's like strangers are like. The night John Tory resigned, someone

bought me four website domains. Someone had thousands of dollars waiting for

me. I had no choice about running in this by-election. I was called up off the

bench. So, you know, I'm on the field playing for Team Toronto, and that's

not going to change. So, yeah, just be ready to be called out and to be called

up.

Well, thank you for that, Chloe. I did want to mention that when we reached out

to book an interview with you, your campaign manager was not just enthusiastic

about, yes, of course, sounds amazing, but can we turn this into a public event where

people are allowed to come and ask questions? They wanted it to be as accessible

as possible. And that was really heartwarming. We don't experience that very often from politicians.

they do try to maximize their campaign spots and their time. I get that. But it wasn't

framed that way. And I just, that really sat well with me. So kudos to your campaign

manager, Salom, because it was just a pleasure kind of, it spoke to, I think, your

campaign. It was a pleasure to work with them. And the spirit of what you're intending

to do came through in just the most brief interactions I had through an email.

And... The reaction we got online to from folks is always mixed, but I think folks

are generally excited to learn more about what's driving you. They can go to your

website, they can read your policies, they can agree or disagree and nitpick them

and improve them or whatnot. But getting to know you is something a little bit different.

And I think we kind of got there today. Definitely

Yeah.

know your motivations. And I got a piece of advice from the Twitterverse for you

that just came in.

Yeah.

says Chloe Brown should legally change her name to John Tory just for the election

and we might survive the decade. So you've got fans out there that are desperate

for you to win this one, my friend. So thanks

Hehehe

for taking the time out of your campaign day and your work day and

Absolutely.

chatting with us.

Thank you. Um, I was actually really excited when you reached out because

this is about the blueprints for a disruption. Like I want you guys to become

little shit disturbers too because Yeah, I remember this Toronto Star article

writer calling me a shit disturber, Reg Cohn, and he said

Oh.

this to me at a meeting and I was just like, oh like you think I'm a shit

disturber now. Wait. Wait, I promise you. chaos.

I'm sorry.

So

life goals.

yeah, that's the thing. It's just like I'm motivated by the ton of people

who told me that like, you shouldn't be here. Like you're a little too much. Like

you need to wait your turn. Nope. I did. And now here I am. The unpaid

I

interns.

think we need a little too much now. I think we're due for too much.

Yeah, but

Thank you

that's

again, Claude.

thank you. Um,

Thank you.

do I just like, sorry, do I just sign off? I don't know

No,

how this

I'm going

works.

to stop the recording here, but don't run away.